Woman's Hour - Sophie Raworth, Maternity deaths, Sarah Finch, Stalking

Episode Date: April 24, 2026

According to NHS England, every maternity service in England will need to meet new clinical standards set out by the NHS to significantly reduce the number of women who die each year during or after pregnancy. This comes after figures published earlier this year showed a 20% increase in maternal deaths between 2022 to 2024 compared to rates from 2009 to 2011. More than 500,000 babies are born in England every year and to discuss what these announcements mean in practise for pregnant women, Anita Rani is joined by Michael Buchanan, BBC Social Affairs correspondent.At the age of nearly 40, BBC broadcaster Sophie Raworth thought she was too old to start running. She’d done no exercise for decades. But after being invited to take part in The Great North Run and then seeing a friend do the London Marathon, Sophie decided to give it a go. Although it didn’t quite initially go to plan, she kept going on a path that would take her around the world, from Sydney to New York and the Sahara Desert, completing 20 marathons and 10 ultra-marathons. She tells Anita about her new book, Running On Air, and reveals how in running, she has discovered an unexpected strength, new confidence and great friendships. The Suzy Lamplugh Trust has published a report spotlighting the link between stalking and homicide to mark National Stalking Awareness week. They say there are huge gaps in recording stalking as a contributing factor to homicide and want to see further research on this. Anita is joined by Saskia Garner, Head of Policy and Campaigns at the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, and Detective Inspector Karen Butler from the Metropolitan Police, who works in the Stalking Threat Assessment Centre.On Monday, Sarah Finch became the European recipient of the Goldman Environmental Prize, for her work against oil drilling in Surrey, with the Weald Action Group. Their long legal battle led to a landmark judgement on fossil fuel emissions. The Goldman Prize, often referred to as the ‘Green Nobel’, honours grassroots environmental activists from around the world. For the first time since its inception, all six prizes were won by women. Sarah joins Anita from California where the awards took place.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. The Goldman Environmental Prize, often referred to as the Green Nobel, recognises people from around the world doing their bit to save our planet at grassroots level. One of the winners is a campaigner from Devon. Sarah Finch has won the $200,000 prize for successfully preventing oil drilling in Surrey. She'll be talking to us from America. It's the middle of the night there.

but she's going to stay up to have a conversation all about it. We'll also be discussing the connection between the reporting of stalking or lack of and homicide. In response to the 20% rise in the number of paternal deaths, new checks have been suggested by NHS England. We'll be finding out more. And BBC broadcaster Sophie Raywith has written a memoir running on air, looking at her life and her love of running, which she only really started doing in her late 30s,

having never been particularly sporty. She's since run a lot of marathons and yes, she will be running this Sunday in the London Marathon. And if you would like to share your opinion and thoughts on anything you hear in the program, then do get in touch with us in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website or you can WhatsApp me or even drop me a voice note.

It's 0-3-700-100-444. That text number once again, 84844. But first, according to NHS England, every maternity service in England will need to meet new clinical standards set out by the NHS to significantly reduce the number of women who die each year during or after pregnancy. This comes after figures earlier this year showed a 20% increase in maternal deaths, comparing 252 from the years 2022 to 2024 to the rates from 2009 to 20. 11. More than 500,000 babies are born in England every year. And to discuss what these announcements mean in practice for pregnant women, I'm joined by Michael Buchanan, BBC Social Affairs correspondent. Good morning, Michael. So what are the key changes we should be aware of? What's happening? Well, this announcement by NHS England is intended to tackle the main causes of maternal death.

So what from March 2027, what NHS England are saying, will happen is that all pregnant women will be offered early assessments for blood clots before their first antinatal appointment. And that obviously takes place usually between sort of eight and ten weeks. And anybody who's identified as a higher risk of a blood clot will be offered blood thinners within three days. They say, they say that women with epilepsy, they will have access to local specialist teams for men. managing epilepsy and pregnancy and they will be offered tailor support to control those seizures and quick access to medications

that are safe to use in pregnancy. And the other main area they're going to look at is mental health. So there will be a routine assessment of women to check their mental health and to ensure that if any concerns are raised that they are signposted and supported more importantly to the right agencies.

And the NHS England believe that if all these things are effective, they will significantly reduce the number of deaths from blood clots, strokes, cardiac disease, suicide and hemorrhages. Yeah, I'm just going to pick up on mental health there, maternal mental health, because that is key. Women taking their own lives remain the leading cause of maternal death after pregnancy. Yes, so there's two broad categories when it comes to maternal death. There is what happens in labour at that moment, and then there is what happens. and the weeks afterwards, and from six weeks after a buff to a year onwards,

then maternal suicide is the biggest cause of maternal deaths. And there has been effort in recent years to increase the number of mother and baby units, which are specialist units where a mother can go for a period of time to get support for a psychiatric help and take her baby with her. But a lot of campaign are saying there simply aren't enough of them, so you occasionally hear stories of women having to travel long distances before they can get the specialist help they need. And that sometimes puts women off from taking the help because to think if I'm away from my local community, perhaps from my husband, perhaps from my wider family, because I'm in a different part of the country, maybe the specialist support won't be as effective.

So they sometimes are reluctant to take this support. And what I think NHS England are trying to do with this is to try and spot those. women who might need support a lot earlier and to try and ensure that they get quicker access to that support. And of course we must reassure people listening that this is very rare. It is very rare. I mean, the context for this is in the UK last year, there were about 650,000 births. It's not obviously 650,000 separate women, but that gives you a separate, an indication

of the sheer number of women giving birth in the UK in any one year. and what we are talking about over a two-year period here, the latest figures 2022 to 2024, were 252 deaths. So it is very, very rare. But the context, the other context for this is that that figure is 20% higher than it was in 2009 to 2011, that two-year period.

And the other context for this is that there was actually a government initiative for England to try and reduce the number of, maternal deaths by 50% between 2010 and 2025. So not only did that target not get met, it actually increased. And the other thing that NHS England are pointing out is that of that 252 deaths that we mentioned there,

there's been research done that estimates that with better care, 45%, almost half of these women may not have died. And so that's the context and that's the problem that NHS England are trying to tackle. women of colour remain most at risk and Baroness Amos, who's leading an investigation into NHS maternity and neonatal services in England, talked of unacceptable racism and discrimination

and that too many women, particularly from minority backgrounds, are being failed. So how might these changes make a difference? You're right. So black women are three times more likely to die than white women in labour. And curiously and sadly, that figure, that proportion has come down in recent years,

but only because the number of white women dying has actually increased. And the reasons for, or some of the reasons for that disparity is racism. It just is. And so there's a feeling that black women have got tougher skin and so that therefore they can endure more pain. There's a higher incidence of maternal deaths amongst Asian communities as well. And part of that is a feeling that Asian women. women are princesses and just can't stand what medical conditions put down to just the normal pains of labour.

And these things are just ingrained racism and they appear over and over again. There are the NHS, there's not targeted in these announcements from NHS, I think there is not a single targeted intervention that will reduce the black mortality rate, for instance, in and of itself. I think what they're hoping to do is that by improving the care across the board, that will help all women and separately they will be looking to the aim of reviews to understand what they can do to target this, what seems to be ingrained or widespread levels of racism in the NHS and maternity service. How does this fit him with the wider maternity reviews taking place?

Yes, well, the maternal death stats are part of the problem that West Street and the Health Secretary for England is trying to tackle. and what the Amos reviews were set up to do because they are a picture of what's going on in maternity units. A lot of fundamentally what happens in maternity units and this speaks to maternal death and it speaks to all the other problems is that women simply aren't listened to and that the clinicians don't pay enough heed

to what the women are telling them. Even women who have had a previous pregnancy and know that what they are feeling in the moment isn't right, doesn't feel right. They are still ignored. First time mothers are ignored and classed as people who don't know what they're going through and of course labour is a painful experience. And fundamentally what a lot of the problems in maternity units are an inability or an unwillingness to listen to the woman and to recognise that the woman knows her own body better than a clinician looking at her. And so what you're seeing with maternal deaths, what you're seeing

with the other problems as well stem from that and then you find some basic failures in maternity care and the inability to stop to stop and to spot what are maternity emergencies and then when things go wrong to deny that there was a responsibility

of the clinicians and that leads to a system that fails to learn from these incidents and then you see what you have at the moment which is the massive knotting and review about to publish. A review in Decatur in Nottingham, which is about to publish at the end of June, that's looking at about 2,500 cases. You've had other reviews previously, and you've got two more reviews in Leeds and Sussex to come, as well as the Baroness Amos review, which is due to

publish in June as well. So the whole system at the moment is getting an awful lot of attention, but fundamentally the problem is it hasn't learned from previous incidents. Maternal deaths haven't been investigated and learned from the way that they should have done, nor has anything else, and that's why you have these problems at the moment. For now, Michael, thank you so much for speaking to us. Michael Buchanan, BBC's social affairs correspondent, and of course this will be a subject, we'll be coming back to One Woman's Hour. But I must say, if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion,

you can go to the BBC Action Line website where you'll find links to support. And also, if you would like to share your experience, remember you can remain anonymous with us here at Woman's Hour, then please get in touch. You can email us by going to our website. We do have a statement from NHS England. Kate Brintworth, Chief Midwifery Officer for England, said every death during or after pregnancy is a tragedy,

especially when differences in care may have changed the outcome. We still see symptoms of serious medical problems being missed, especially for black and Asian women. By setting out these clinical standards and holding hospitals to account, we can significantly reduce avoidable deaths and prevent future tragedies. 84844 is the text number. Now, at the age of nearly 40, BBC broadcaster Sophie Rayworth thought she was too old to start running. She'd done no exercise for decades, but after being invited to take part in the Great North Run,

and then by seeing a friend do the London Marathon, Sophie decided to give it a go. Although it didn't quite go to plan. We'll find out what happened in a minute. She kept going on a path that would take her around the world from Sydney to New York and the South. Sahara Desert, completing 20 marathons and 10 ultramarathons. Well, in her new book, Running on Air, she reveals how in running, she's discovered an unexpected strength, new confidence and great friendships. Sophie joined me in the Woman's Hour studio ahead of this Sunday's London Marathon,

and I started by asking her how and why she started running. I was not a runner, and I really want to stress this, because lots of people, I think, sort of see me run and think, oh, you've been doing it all your life since you're a child. I really wasn't doing it at all. So I ran a tiny bit at school. I mean, I'm literally talking for a couple of months. Were you sporty? No, I wasn't.

I was one of those kids at school. Certainly until I was 16, I did no sport. We weren't encouraged. This is the 1980s, early 1980s. And I was not encouraged to do sport. I wasn't chosen for the netball team. I did nothing. And then I changed schools when I was 16.

And I did a bit of springboard diving randomly. And I, for one term, did athletics at school. And I was a good runner, apparently. And I ran the 400 meters. But that was it. And then I quit. And I did no more sport for about 20 years. I probably went for the odd jog, but about a mile. And when I was in my late 30s, I tried, my husband encouraged me to start running. And I just had my second child. And I could not run two miles without stopping every 500 metres. I needed water. I didn't like it. It hurt. I just didn't understand why people wanted to do it. So what kept you going? I signed up to do the Great North Run. And so I had a goal. And so I got a training plan.

I just had my second child. I wanted to get fit. And I actually found with a training plan it gave me a little bit of structure. And I was really surprised how quickly I was able to progress. And that's what I love about running is that it's not something you can't just rock up and do a marathon or a half marathon. You have to train. And it's step by step one after the other. Little you chip away at it.

And that's what I've been doing for the last 15 years with marathon running. You chip away at it. It's slow progress, but it is ultimately unbelievably rewarding. How did the race go? The first one, it was fine. It took me two hours and something. And over the years, that was when I was 38, I sped up an awful lot over the following years.

It was fine. I couldn't believe I'd done it. I found it hard. It is hard. But I looked back at the finish. When I got to the finish line, I thought I could never run a whole marathon. That was just impossible.

And then I discovered a few years later that I actually could If you do the training, if you follow a plan If you work and you're consistent, you can do it Can you tell me about your first marathon? My first marathon was, yes, it was eventful So this is 2011 And I trained quite hard I wasn't sure I could run one

But I got a training plan and I trained And I set off, it was quite warm And I set off and I pushed myself too hard And I didn't drink enough water because I thought I'd have to stop. And I got to mile 24, and I thought I'd hit the wall, which is what people talk about. But actually, I just hit the ground. I collapsed, blacked out, and was unconscious for 20 minutes.

I had a temperature of 42.0.4-something degrees Celsius. I woke up on oxygen. I really, I mean, I thought I was in serious trouble. I basically overheated. Oh, my gosh. And they kept me at with St. John Ambulance for two hours. and they looked after me beautifully and then they said right

we'll put you on a bus to the finish line and I'd raised £12,000 for cancer research and I thought I can't go on a bus people have sponsored me to get to the end of this thing so I said to them I convinced them to let me walk and I walked to the finish line or I didn't actually I jogged

but I promised them I'd walk I walked to finish line and yeah it was six hours 22 minutes and 57 seconds but I went back the year after and what happened was brilliant because Brendan Foster on the BBC commentary

saw me coming in under four hours and he went, here comes Sophie Raywith, without doubt, the most improved athlete of the entire field. Yes. That was worth it just for that. Exactly. You did park run, more marathons, and then you went on to do the Boston Marathon.

And that was quite an emotional experience because that was the first marathon after the bomb attack. And you were also running for a friend, George Allegha. Tell us about that. Yeah, so a few days, It was only three years after I started running and I got a place at the Boston Marathon you have to qualify to get a place

as and you have to run fast enough and I'd done that and I was going off and just three days before I went George called me and just he texted me actually said Sophie have you got a moment to have a chat and I rang him and he told me he had cancer and he had stage four cancer

and I couldn't believe it and he couldn't believe it and it was awful it was devastating everyone was so shocked and the news broke that when I was out of Boston, this is what had happened to him. And he was a really, really good friend of mine, and we worked together for a long time. And I'd named my daughter, my second daughter is Georgia after him. And so as a lot of things have happened in my life, my running, sort of my life and what was going on in my life became wrapped up in the running. And I ended up making that

marathon about George. It was raising money for him. But I also, when I got my Boston medal, I brought it back, and it really meant a lot to me that medal. But I gave it to George for his key treatment. So he had it for nearly two years and it was like a sort of good luck charm. And we had this motto Boston Strong which is what they said after the bombing at Boston and it was always Boston Strong and we will resilience will come back and we always had that motto and it was something we shared the whole of his life we always used to message

each other Boston Strong and after two years he gave me my medal back and he had it framed and it's still in my kitchen on the wall and a picture of him and his wife Ranny and I see it every single morning and makes me smile. You're very looking at to have worked with such a great man. He was a wonderful man. And you then had to report on George's death. Yeah.

How difficult was that? It was really hard. It was, I knew he was really ill. I'd seen him in a few weeks before he died. And I knew how ill he was. And I was in touch with his wife. And she told me the day it happened. And I went into work at lunchtime.

I was doing six o'clock news. And I sat there in the chair that he'd sat him for so many years. And he was up on. every single TV screen. And I wanted to do it. I really wanted to do it for him. I wanted to be able to, you know, I don't know. I just wanted to do it.

We'd done a little film. He'd always said to me that he had wanted to come back one more time. He loved working at the BBC. He loved working with the team that we work with. Almost, you know, basically say goodbye. And he hadn't been able to do it. So he had made a film. We'd pulled together all this footage that we'd found.

But George never spoke about having cancer publicly. He was so, he didn't really think people were interested. And they were. But he didn't think they were. And we pulled together all this stuff that we found finally and pieced it together and made a little film. And so I had to introduce that as well. And I got through it by digging my nails very hard

into the back of my hand. It was really hard. But, you know, that's my job. I have to do that. And I do it day in, day out, terrible news. It's just hard when it's somebody you know so well. Absolutely. Very difficult to have to get through that.

Running has now taken you all over the world. you took on the challenge of the six-star medal. Yes. Explain what that is and what you have to do to get it. So the six-star medal is something I discovered at the Boston Marathon. I met this woman called Susie Chan, who is an amazing ultra-runner. And she was also doing the London Marathon and the Boston Marathon that year within a week of each other. And we sort of bonded and became great friends.

And we both saw when we went to pick up our race numbers this huge medal. Now, I like a big medal. And it was a big medal with all these circles. on it. And it was for the six stars are for all the different cities. So there are the marathon majors is London, Boston, Chicago, New York, Tokyo and Berlin. And if you run all of those marathons, you get the big medal. And we saw it and there were hardly any women had done it. There were like 94 women had done it. And hardly any of them were British. This is quite a long time ago. And so Susie and I said, let's do it. And we bonded over that. But now thousands of people

have done it. And they've added another one now. They've added Sydney. So that's the seventh. So you've got to get there. I've done it. Of course you have. Of course you have. But that's what that was about. And, I mean, it's such a huge achievement to run a marathon, but then you had to push yourself even further. So finally we arrive at the Sahara. Tell us about what this challenge was that you decided to undertake.

So this was, again, Susie Chan's fault. So Susie, like me, started running late. And she discovered running in her late 30s. And she went from a half marathon to the Marathon de Sabaabler in about 18 months. It took me about six years. but she had already done it three times by the time she convinced me to go out there. It's 150 miles across the Sahara Desert carrying everything you need to survive for the week. It's six marathons in five days.

You have all your food on your back. You have your water. You have your sleeping kit. They give you water. Yeah. And they give you like an open-sided tent to sleep in. That's it. Sophie, why?

Why? It took me quite a long time to be convinced. Why? Susie's very persuasive. and it was utterly extraordinary. It was really hard. I didn't think I could do it. I didn't let her tell anyone I was doing it.

And I thought I had to go. By the time I was sort of ready to go, I had to go because I'd signed up and other friends were going and they'd all paid to go. I mean, it's a huge undertaking and really dangerous. And you said that you felt guilty about leaving your children because you might die out there. I know, I did think, I know they do make you pay some sort of insurance

in case you have to be repatriated. What's going to happen? I did feel, yes, I did have a lot of qualms about going. It was an amazing challenge. I tell you, actually, why I was about to turn 50. That's probably what it was. Massive midlife crisis. I was about a month off turning 50.

And anyway, I went, and I'm so glad I did, because it taught me so much. And it really taught me. I didn't think I could do it. And I thought, well, I'll just go and do one day at a time. And if I can't do it, I can't do it. But at least I gave it a go. And it taught me that I could do. my body is so much stronger than my mind lets me believe.

And I think that is so true, particularly for women in their 40s and 50s. Right. People like me now, I'm 57. I'm 58 in a couple of weeks. And I think we can all do so much more than we believe. And I still, to this day, I push myself a little bit more because I think you can. And I think it's my head often that tells me that I can't do it.

Yeah. And my body actually can. What is it about your psychology that can just keep going and push you. I've learned that I can and it's a really empowering thing. I've got stronger and stronger in my 40s and 50s. And this is not, I am not a spectacular runner. I am nothing, I'm not a sort of Olympian or, you know, could have been. I literally am not. A lot of people could do what I'm doing. And I have just really slowly, step by step, bit by bit, I've chipped away at it. And I've got stronger and stronger. And there is something incredibly empowering about feeling yourself getting

stronger, not just physically, but also mentally, because learning to run long distances teaches you resilience, teaches you know, in a marathon you have your highs, you have your deep loads, but you've got to get through it and get to the end. And I think it is, I just, I feel very empowered by it as a woman, almost 58, I'm stronger now than I've ever been, I'm probably, I'm definitely as fit as I was when I was 42, and I can run faster than I could when I was 42. Well, that's Interesting. Because your marathon times are getting faster. Is that right?

They definitely got, I don't know what's going to happen in London. We'll find out. But they're definitely, they got faster over 10 years. So I started at 42. My fastest times were when I was in my early 50s. Brilliant. Amazing. What a sense of, like you say, particularly as we get older as women,

to feel strong in your body and know that you can do that. It's also about, for me, it's about future proofing. And I want to stay strong so that when I'm in my 70s and 80s, I can get out of a chair I can stride over the hills I can go for long walks I can maybe run I hope I'm still running

I've got friends who are in their 70s there's a woman I train with now in the gym who's 83 wonderful with dumbbells and you know with sort of kettlebells and everything and I think you just got to keep moving I've got no doubt that you will be that person

I don't know I mean who knows but in my mind I can see it you'll definitely like 20 miles I'll run it You're running the London marathon this Sunday. Running with your daughter? Yes. Ella, what's that going to be like? I'm not sure we're starting together.

I have no idea whether we're running together, whether she's running ahead of me. I might be behind Ella. I don't know. She's her first one. It's quite hard to run a marathon with someone because you're all different paces. So I don't know if we're going to stick together.

The last two races I've done. In fact, I've only done two races with her. She has been with me for about five minutes. And then she sails off ahead. with her ponytail flicking. Oh, youth. So I've no idea. But she's done, she's been brilliant.

She's just trained. She's done the, again, she's chipped away at it. She's got this great example, hasn't she? Well, I hope so. Earlier this week, we marked 10 years of the couch to 5K. So what would you say to women listening who are thinking, it's not for me? I know they've probably heard umpteen interviews of people saying I couldn't do it at first

and then I tried, but still not convinced. What would you say to them? Try it. I mean, try it. And don't expect anything very fast. Just try it. It's so rewarding. But you can do.

Couch to 5K is amazing. Park Run is amazing. You can walk park run. Walk park run to begin with. Then start running it a little bit. The community you meet in the running world, I thought running was really lonely to begin with. But I have made some of my best friends running.

It's huge. I run with people who are much older than me and much younger than me. People are incredibly supportive. A lot of people go out, particularly women, I know, worry about people looking at them, feel self-conscious. You don't, nobody's looking. They don't look at you. Everyone's just really supportive.

And it is incredibly rewarding to do. So I think also something to get you going, and that's certainly what got me going is to sign up to something. So if you have a goal, if it's couched a 5K, you're going to do a 5K. If you've already done that, sign up for a half marathon. Just do it, maybe six months time. It's three months of training.

It's amazing how much confidence it gives you. It gave me huge confidence. It changed my life. It really did change my life. You've sparked something in me. You never know. It's been wonderful talking to you. What an inspiration you are and best of luck on Sunday.

Thank you very much. Did I really say that? That was yesterday. Things have changed. I've slept on it. I've changed my mind. The brilliant Sophie Rayworth there. Her book, Running on Air, is out now.

And you can see Sophie and her daughter Ella running the London Marathon, along with thousands of other runners on the BBC. on Sunday. And can you relate to what Sophie was saying? Are you someone who's got stronger, the older you've got? I'd be intrigued to hear your stories, the text number 84844. Now, on Bank Holiday Monday, we'll be discussing how to have difficult conversations and we'd like to hear your experiences. Maybe you're a doctor who's had to tell patients about their diagnosis, or maybe you've had to tell your best friend that you didn't like their haircut, or their husband,

or them for that matter. Whatever it is, we want to know how you got through it. And bonus points if it happens to be a hilariously funny story. Get in touch in the usual way. You can email us at BBC Woman's Hour or leave us a voice note. Now, the Susie Lamplu Trust has published a report spotlighting the link between stalking and homicide to mark National Stalking Awareness Week. They say there are huge gaps in recording stalking as a contributor. factor to homicide and want to see further research on this. Well, to talk about this, I'm joined

by Saskia Garner, head of policy and campaigns at the Susie Lamplu Trust and also by Detective Inspector Karen Butler from the Metropolitan Police who works in the stalking threat assessment centre. So on the front line with stalking victims, welcome to both of you. Saskia, I'm going to come to you first. At the Susie Lamplu Trust, you have a stalking help line, which since its Inception in 2010 has helped nearly 100,000 people. So in your report, it's called fatal fixation, how do you define stalking? Well, stalking is a pattern of repeated, fixated and obsessive behaviour. It causes fear and distress in the victim, and it can manifest in a whole range of different

behaviours, both online and in person. It's a crime of psychological terror. Victims tell us that it infiltrates every. aspect of their lives. They don't know if they're being surveyed and monitored. They don't know if their stalker is going to turn up at their children's school or their place of work. It's that feeling of constant vigilance and that can really contribute to mental health impacts and victims in some cases moving house and even country to escape that feeling of fear. Karen, definition of stalking. You were nodding away to that.

Susky is absolutely right and I think it's really important to recognise the harm that the crime of stalking causes for victims. So stalking is a course of conduct. It's two behaviours. There's two levels of stalking. We have two offences. We have 2A stalking and 4A stalking. 2A stalking is the lower level, sort of basic stalking, which is a cause of conduct, two behaviours that cause alarm distress. The Section 4A stalking is the more serious offence and the one that we should be seeing reporting. more commonly. It's got two arms to it. So it also includes fear of violence and it includes serious alarm or distress on a victim, so significant impacts on their daily life. So can I get you to just re-explain the basic stalking, the two-tier thing? Give us some examples. A basic level stalking. I mean, I think my message would be,

often I think we see stalking being underreported. And I think if we've got to the point where someone is coming to the police for help. I think we're looking at a Section 4A stalking, would be our starting point. I think the fact that you've come to the police is a significant impact on your daily life. Saskia, from your experience of working with victims of stalking, four in five

of reported stalking cases are women. That's 80%, although we mustn't forget that one in 13 men have experienced stalking as well. So what makes it a gendered crime? Well, we do see stalking as part of the spectrum of violence against women and girls. There is, unfortunately, a normalisation in some areas of culture.

We can see this in films, Valentine's cards, you know, a kind of romanticisation of the pursuit of women in this way and a kind of language which suggests that women should be grateful for being pursued in this way. Unfortunately, victims tell us that sometimes they're even told by police officers that aren't they lucky to have flowers and chocolates and cards and gifts sent to them every day and for someone to be pursuing them in this way. But that kind of language diminishes the fear and distress that those behaviours are causing someone, particularly if there's been a long history of abusive behaviour behind that, what might seem like an insignificant. incident to us is actually of immense significance to that person. They know that what control and violence might escalate from that. They know the pattern of behaviours that they've been experiencing and we cannot underestimate the seriousness of this crime and that's what our report this week has highlighted how those behaviours can so quickly escalate into serious violence.

Yeah, tell us more. What are the main findings of your report? Well, we work with the National Stalking Consortium, and members of that consortium have lost loved ones to the hands of their stalkers. Alice Ruggles and Holly Gazzard being two who were murdered by their stalkers after a fairly short-lived relationship. So we know these cases happen, but we wanted to look at the evidence more broadly to really draw attention to the significance of this crime, because we feel it's not being taken seriously enough across a number of different levels. And what we found was that there is evidence that's being carried out that clearly shows the links between stalking and homicides. The College of Policing carried out an evidence review.

They've marked it themselves as a risk marker for violence, particularly by an ex-partner. And in one study by Jane Moncton Smith of femicides, stalking was present in 94% of those femicides. So we cannot ignore that the risk markers here, but there's a huge amount of research that needs to be done, particularly in stalking where there isn't an ex-partner profile. So let's say neighbours, acquaintances, colleagues and even strangers. There's far less research in that area,

but we know that those cases happen as well. Yeah, I was actually interested to read that just over half of the national stalking help like cases in the year ending March 26th were not perpetrated by a current or an ex-intermittrated. partner or a family member, but the likes of colleagues, ex-colleagues, acquaintances, friends, neighbours, strangers. That's right. We can't stereotype who is going to be stalked or indeed who a stalker is. And we know from cases like Gracie Spinks, who was stalked by her colleague.

That was underplayed, potentially because there wasn't a prior relationship. It was seen as harassment. Her employer hadn't reported a course of conduct. of this man stalking and harassing other women in the workplace. So it's really vital that we have that training across a whole range of different agencies to look at the red flags, to recognise the risk markers, you know, and make sure that we're putting the preventative steps in place really early on. Karen, from March 24 to 2025, we know that there were an estimated 1.4 million victims of stalking

in England and Wales. However, only 135,000 cases were reported to the police. This means under 10% of stalking cases get reported. Why don't people feel comfortable coming to the police? So I think that's probably the first point, isn't it? Is that we're working really hard to improve our trust and confidence within communities to make sure that people can feel that they will come to the police and be supported. And we are working really hard on training the front line to make sure that victims do,

feel like they can come forward. I think there's also something about victims themselves, perhaps don't recognise that they're being stalked. I think that victims put up with a lot before they really like they actually think to themselves, hang on a minute, I need the police help. I think perhaps police is a last resort for them and where perhaps there is a perception that the person that's stalking them has a mental health condition, they don't want to criminalise that person. But the reality is, is without an intervention, the stalking won't stop. So we need victims to come and report to us.

We take stalking seriously. We will listen to them and we will deal with it. Saskia, what are you hearing from women about their reasons for not coming forward? Well, as Karen says, unfortunately, many women fear that they're not going to be believed. They perhaps feel that what they're experiencing, isn't serious enough to report or that perhaps the behaviours will go away. Also, sadly, I think some people look at the conviction rates, which are less than 2% of those reported to the police,

and they feel discouraged. But we would really urge people to come forward at the earliest possible stage to get that help and support from the National Stalking Helpline so that we can put in place a safety plan and really start identifying whether there are specific risks that could be managed. What can the police do, Karen, both nationally and in the Met, to help increase these figures? Because this is a matter of trust, isn't it? The police are meant to be the place women can go to to feel that you're there to protect us.

And if they don't feel that they can come to you because they're not going to be taken seriously or all the numbers of reasons that have been listed, what actual steps can happen? What can be done? So I think a lot of this is about training, of all. officers. Saskas has already talked about training. And in, so beginning of the summer last year, in the MET, we rolled out the stalking awareness training, which was designed by St Mary's University using stalking expertise to design the training. And that was rolled out to constables, up to inspectors, across the front line, the organisation. And I think we are starting to see the

gains of that. I think in this quarter, we're charging more people for Section 4A stalking than we ever have. So, and training is really important. We've got another training package that we are rolling out this year, again, to cement the understanding of stalking within our front line to assure your listeners and victims that might be listening that actually it will be taken seriously if they come and they report to us. The other thing that, so I work in the stalking threat assessment centre, it's a multi-agency

stalking intervention program, Susie Lampley heavily involved. There's three nationally. Yeah, tell us about your job. Yeah, so I mean, I love my job. I'm the DEI and the Stalking Threat Assessment Centre, as I say, it's a multi-agency stalking intervention program. And we work to reduce re-offending in those that stalk, and we work to improve the service to victims in London. That's what my job is. And we do that by making sure that we have a multi-agency approach to dealing with offenders. We need to put interventions in. Can't police our way out of stalking. We need other agencies. So I work with a health. service, mental health trusts, I work with probation, and I work with the Susie Lamp-Lu Trust. And together we come up with a multi-agency strategy to give us the best chance to stop that person desisting from stalking. Am I right in thinking that behaviour, the stalking behaviour, only has to be repeated twice for it to become a police matter? Yeah, so that's the legislation.

It's a course of conduct, which is two behaviours. Absolutely. So picking up on what Saskia was saying earlier. She also talked about wanting a stalking related death review process. Is this something the police would welcome? So I think this is part of the conversation that policing is already having around conduct offences and the link to suicide. And of course, coercive control, we know about that and we are having conversations about that. And I think stalking is part of that conversation. I think the honest answer is we're still at the start of those conversations. and I think there's an awful lot more research and an law learning that we need to do.

But I'm having those conversations all the time with people within the organisation with my bosses. We are talking about it. Saskia, what are your concerns with the way police deal with stalking? I know that the trust put forward a super complaint in 2022 on police failings in stalking cases. So what would you like to see? And feel free to speak to Karen,

because you're both here on one of this hour. Talk to each other. Yes, I know, Karen, while we work closely on the stalking threat assessment Centre and that is a really fantastic example of how important multi-agency working is. So we would recommend to all police forces that they really look at that model and the successes that have been proven in reducing stalking in those offenders. Our super complaint highlighted nationwide concerns around the identification of stalking,

the management, the use of stalking protection orders. these are still less than 0.5% being put in place for cases reported to the police. We know there are pockets of good practice and of course we welcome that we want sharing of best practice. But what we also need to see is a real scrutiny of after a homicide or a suicide has happened, where there are flags where stalking may have been a contributing factor to that death to really capture that information in a systematic way. That is not happening currently. And if we don't understand what the risks are that are leading to women being killed by stalkers

or taking their own lives as a result of those behaviours, then what value are we placing on those women's lives? Yeah. Karen, police recorded crime data shows that nationally only around 8% of cases reported to the police. I know you know these figures. They get charged. and then only 2.1% get convicted. Not encouraging for people considering to come forward. Why are there such small numbers being charged

and then why a drop-off for convictions? So I don't think stalking is the only crime type that we see these difficulties with. And actually I think we are in a landscape at the minute with huge backlogs for Crown Court. and I think we need to come up with innovative ways to stop the re-offending, stop the offending, stop the re-offending. Because if you speak to any victim of stalking, I don't think any of them will say that they're really looking forward to giving evidence in a Crown Court. I think what they would stay is, I just want the offending to stop and I just want to get my life back.

I think that's what they would say. We need to identify stalking early. If you had to say to me, what gives you the best chance to get a charge and a conviction? It's about identifying stalking early. Saskia and the super complaint is absolutely right. We need to make sure that actually we identify risk related to the stalking that the victim is enduring and that we need to put in safeguards to make sure that they're safe. Then we need to keep them engaged throughout the criminal justice process

and we need to, and part of that engagement is actually making them feel safe. So I think that early identification and actually things in place and proper safety planning and advocacy. We work really closely with the Susie Lampley Trust, so I see the benefits of it every day. It's about referring victims so that they get the support that they need. Karen, what advice, you've got an audience listening,

what advice would you give them? In fact, both of you, Saskia. I'll come to you first, and then I'll come to you, Karen. Anyone listening who suspects that they know someone or indeed they might be storked being stalked themselves. What advice would you give them? Well, we would say, trust your instincts.

If anything makes you feel unsafe or it's unwanted and you're concerned about those behaviours, don't hesitate to call our expert advocates on the National Stalking Helpline. They will help you understand what is happening to you. They will explain options for you to put in place safety planning. And crucially, tell a trusted person what's happening to you. Don't keep it to yourself. And hopefully, you will get that crucial support that you need. What about going to the police?

Well, absolutely, if that's what people want to do, then an advocate can explain that process to them and they can pursue that as a criminal justice case, which most of the victims who come through our services do want to see a criminal justice outcome for their perpetrator. What are the steps to report it, Karen? So if you're in immediate danger, always 999. If you feel in fear or if you feel unsafe, always call 999. If not, it's 101 or you can report online. And what happens if they do get to the police and they've come to report it and they feel that their seriousness of the crime is not being taken seriously or they don't feel they're being listened to because we have spoken about this time and time again on this programme.

What happens then? So I think I would say to victims coming to the police is I want them to feel empowered to walk into the police station and say, I am being stalked. Name it as stalking. I think that's really, really important. And again, I would also say I would be using the national, if you think you've got an investigation within the police, I think, and you don't think we're dealing with it properly, escalate it through the police processes, ask to speak to supervisors, that kind of. thing. And also call the National Stalking Help Line because they will advocate for them and they will contact us and tell us where we're not doing a good job. Because on the one hand you are a woman who feels you are

being stalked and then the energy it would take to then have to escalate it when you've gone to the place that's meant to be protecting you. It's very yes, it's not very heartening is it? I think my first point is that I would hope that people to receive a good service when they come to the police. I do. I'm not naive to the fact that that isn't. always the case. And you're absolutely right, it's exhausting being a victim of stalking, isn't it? Because the reality is they have to deal with the trauma of being stalked while still being stalked. Exactly. So I do, I absolutely get it. And the stalking threat assessment

centre, we review all of the cases that get put on. So we are there as kind of a safeguard to review and put in place strategies for those, the most serious of cases that come into us. And victims, of course, can call one-on-one and ask for the stalking threat assessment centre to contact them, you know, if they think that they're not being listened to by the officer on the front line. Thank you both for speaking to us this morning. Thank you to Karen Butler, Detective Inspector from the Metropolitan Police, who works in the Stalking Threat and Assessment Centre and Saskia Gun, a head of policy and campaigns at the Susie Lampley Trust.

And of course, if you or anyone you know has been affected by any of the issues that we've been discussing, then please go to the BBC Actionline website. That also exists for further information. Thank you. 84844 is the text number. A couple of you have got in touch about your getting fitter. I'm a geriatrician and see every day how much difference being strong makes to older people and how we can become stronger and fitter at any age.

Well, that's heartening to know. We don't all have to run a marathon. It's never too late. I turned 60 last year and started doing regular weights and running. I'm stronger than I've ever been and I love it, says Dr. Lucy Pollock. Now, on Monday, Sarah Fitzger. became the European recipient of the Goldman Environmental Prize for her work against oil drilling in Surrey with the Weald Action Group. Their long legal battle led to a landmark judgment on fossil fuel emissions.

The Goldman Prize often referred to as the Green Nobel honours grassroots environmental activists from around the world. And for the first time since its inception, all six prizes were won by women. Sarah, who joins me from California, where the awards took place. Welcome to Woman's Hour. And congratulations. Thank you. What time is it? It's 10 to 3 in the morning in California. Are you still celebrating? You haven't been to bed yet?

I have been to bed. I had a quick three-hour sleep before coming on here. What was the ceremony like? Tell me about it. It was incredible. It was very moving. It took place in San Francisco's opera house. packed with 3,000 people, including a large number of young environmental leaders, environmental campaigners, etc. And, yeah, quite a simple ceremony where the six of us winners, a short video was shown about

our work and we got to make a speech. So very, very exciting and a great honour. And did it feel significant that for the first time since the prize was founded in 1989, it was a all-female winner list? Yeah, I thought it felt very fitting because we know that women and girls are very often the most vulnerable to the climate and environmental problems. And also the first ones to roll up their sleeves and get on and tackle them. So it felt entirely natural that it was six women, six amazing women, or five amazing women plus me being honoured. So humble.

What was it like meeting all those women? Have you got a global network? Yeah, I feel like I've got a sister on each continent now. So we spent a whole week together and the Goldman Foundation to organise a host of activities. We were sort of with zipping backwards and forwards across San Francisco attending different events and functions and got to know each other quite well. So everyone's now going back to their respective countries and I sort of feel quite bereaved, got quite used to being with those wonderful people. Well, like you say, you've got this global network now, haven't you? So I described it as like the Nobel Prize

because you don't even know you're nominated until you win. How did you react when you found out you'd won? I assumed it was a hoax. If it seemed so unlikely to get a phone call to just say, oh, you've won this huge prize. So, yeah, my first thought was somebody was winding me up. And then my second thought, when I sort of realized it was actually true, was a kind of deep imposter syndrome.

I thought, it must be a mistake. Why did they pick me? But I sort of came, I mean, I'd have no doubts at all that the legal victory that I won over fossil fuels, you know, totally deserve surprise. But what's uncomfortable a little is being recognised as an individual for that because it was always a very group endeavour. I bought that case sort of in my name, but on behalf of the wheeled action group. And the wheeled action group were behind it and, you know, engaged all the way. And I think that's something that the other winners also felt that, you know, sure you have leaders and there are some very inspiring individuals out there, but change is usually brought about by movements rather than individuals. Yeah.

So let's get on to the reason why you won and the five-year legal battle to stop drilling for oil in Surrey. Tell us more. How did you find out about this proposal in the first place and what made you want to fight it? I was already so very engaged in campaigning on environment and climate issues in different ways. And one day I read in the local paper that there was planned for an oil development near my home, which came as a huge shock. Partly at that time I didn't realise there even was some onshore oil and gas production. And this climate change was something I'd seen as a kind of national and international policy.

issue, not a sort of physical issue on my doorstep. So, you know, I was kind of paralyzed by, I didn't know what to do. And for several months, I kept, I did nothing. I kept thinking, oh, I should really perhaps look into this oil proposal. But I realized, you know, it was one of a number of proposals. At that time, there was a kind of influx of fracking type methodologies, which made it feasible or theoretically feasible to extract oil and gas from the wheel. And so there were lots of other sites popping up and lots of other people campaigning against them. And so I quickly met others.

And together we kind of went through a journey of understanding the onshore oil and gas industry and what we could do to stop it. So there was a lot of years of campaigning against that site before the legal case even started. You were campaigning against it. But was there local support for the plans? Would they have brought jobs to the area, for example? Oh no, virtually no jobs. A very small site. There were residents who weren't opposed to the site. It was quite a divisive issue because we had some very active campaigners against it and some of the local residents perhaps thought they'd rather have a quiet life than have campaigns against a normal site on their front door. But as time went on and the impacts became clear because they, they, they, they,

got two sequential permissions for test drilling, which caused a lot of disruption, lots of heavy tanker traffic, air pollution, noise, etc., locally, and then even earthquakes. So as it went on, residents became more and more opposed to these plans. And it was a long and complicated road, but in June 2024, the Supreme Court ruled in your favour, saying that permission for the oil development was unlawful, as it fell to consider the full climate impact of burning oil from new wells. Just explain what that's meant and for other similar development plans. Tell us more. Yeah, the whole point of our case was about the fact, we argued that the permission, the eventual permission for full-scale production for 20 years of oil production at

that site was unlawful because when they made the decision, the council didn't look at the climate impact of actually burning the oil. They looked only at the environmental impacts of the production site itself, which is quite small. And initially we thought, you know, this was just perhaps a one-off error, but we quickly realized it was the norm and that fossil fuel sites much bigger than Horse Hill were being routinely permitted without any consideration of the full climate impact. And it just seemed absurd.

The only point of producing these fuels is that they can then be burnt, and that will inevitably affect the climate. So that was the crux of our case. They hadn't done a proper environmental impact assessment because they hadn't looked at the biggest environmental impact, which is the burning of the fuels. What would you say to people who believe that we should exploit our local oil deposits

to prevent fuel cost spikes caused by wars in the Middle East, like the one that's happening right now? Well, the thing is we have exploited our local fuels. The gas in the North Sea is pretty much all gone. and what's left is oil, and that is exported, and then we may buy some of it back at world prices, but there's no such thing as a local market in oil and gas. It's entirely a world market,

and the prices are set outside of our control. So what will give us real control over our prices and our energy security is exploiting our renewable resources. Sun and wind are things that can't be owned by foreign companies. They're everywhere. They're not sort of limited to particularly, geographic regions. So, yeah, the real solution is to ramp up renewable energy as well as doing, you know,

insulating homes, et cetera, upgrading homes with solar and heat pumps. You won the case. You've won the Goldman Prize. And you've also managed to pocket $200,000, which is the prize. So how are you going to spend it? Well, I will give a chunk of it to the wheeled action group and other causes close to my heart. And I'm still thinking about the ways that I can use. use the rest in order to sort of support and increase my own activism.

It's been a pleasure speaking to you. And thank you so much for getting up after three hours' sleep to speak to us. We really appreciate it. And congratulations. Oh, thank you for inviting me. Sarah Finch. Well done. Once again, well done.

And thanks to all of you getting in touch with us this morning and listening. On Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow, we'll be finding out why six years on from the COVID pandemic, many women who underwent mastectomies for breast cancer are still awaiting breast Reconstruction and I'll be talking to Spice Girl Melanie C on her latest solo album, Body Image, finding confidence in her 50s. So join me tomorrow at 4.30. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Johnny Diamond and I'm the presenter of the Radio 4 series. How did we get here, Israel and the Palestinians. We explore the complicated backstory of that Middle East conflict as the region endues another wider war. Through conversational

with experts with a variety of perspectives. We travel back through the centuries to examine the history of the land that's now so contested between Arabs and Israelis, and we try and understand the past that's brought us to such a present. How did we get here? Israel and the Palestinians. Listen on BBC sounds.