Woman's Hour - Southport dance teacher Leanne Lucas, Indira Varma, German elections, Nnedi Okorafor

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

It was a crime that horrified the nation. Three young girls murdered and another eight children and two adults seriously injured at a yoga and dance workshop in Southport in July 2024. Teacher Leanne Lucas, who was running the event, has agreed to speak for the first time about what happened. She's been speaking to the BBC’s special correspondent Judith Moritz who joins Nuala McGovern.The German election results are in and there’s now a female-led, far-right party in opposition. Journalist and Visiting Research Fellow at Kings College London Katja Hoyer tells Nuala about the role of women in the new German political landscape.Indira Varma is an Olivier-award-winning actor who has starred in everything from West End hits to Game of Thrones. She is currently on stage at the Old Vic in London, playing Jocasta to Rami Malek’s Oedipus. She joins Nuala in the Woman’s Hour studio.Nigerian American science fiction author Nnedi Okorafor's new book is Death of the Author. It follows the story of Zelu, a novelist who is disabled, unemployed and from a very judgmental family. Nnedi and Nuala talk about the book within her book, success, and the influence on her writing of being an athlete in her earlier years.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. This morning, we will hear from the yoga teacher Leanne Lucas. She helped several children survive in the Southport knife attack last summer where three young girls died. Leanne herself was stabbed five times. She tells her story of how that day unfolded to my BBC colleague Judith Moritz who will be here with us. It is a very affecting listen. If when you hear

it you would like to get in touch with the programme you can text us, that number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's hour or you can email us through our website for a whatsapp message or a voice note the number is 0 3 700 100 444 so on that story or anything else that you hear in the program that you'd like to get in contact with us. Also today the German election, Friedrich Merz as you've heard in the bulletin will be the new Chancellor from the CDU party but there are many watching Elise Vidal, the head of the far-right AFD, Alternative for Germany and they are now the new opposition party. We're going to hear more about Miss Vidal and also what the new political landscape means

for women. In London, Oedipus is back on stage with Indira Varma as Jokasta. And although 2000 years old, the play is set in the near future. We're going to talk about Indira's illustrious career on stage and screen, including of course, Ilaria Sand in Game of Thrones, among many, many others. And we're also going to look to the future with Nady Okorafor, the Nigerian-American science fiction and fantasy writer. She has a new book, Death of the Author, which is a book within a book. All will be revealed. But let us begin in Southport.

This was a crime that horrified the nation. Three young girls murdered, another eight children and two adults seriously injured at a yoga and dance workshop that took place in Southport. The teacher Leanne Lucas was running the event and she has agreed to speak for the first time about what happened. She's been speaking to the BBC special correspondent Judith Moritz and Judith is on the line with me now. Good to have you with us. How did this interview come about Judith? Well we've been spending the last few weeks or so making a film for BBC's Panorama programme which aims to be the definitive account of what happened in Southport and you know I'm

sure in yours, certainly in mine and in many people's memories it's very fresh but the full extent of what happened there I I think, hasn't really emerged publicly, and that's partly because there was due to be a trial, and you may remember that on the very first day of that trial, the attacker pleaded guilty. And so the sort of detail that you might have expected to see reported was reduced. Now, the people that we spoke to in making the film were those directly involved, the people who ran to help and significantly the people in the room, most of them of course were very young

children who aren't able to speak, not appropriate for them to speak, for us to speak to them, but the teacher who ran that class and also a teenager who was there as well have taken part in this film and their stories are, as you said at the beginning, they're exceptionally moving. Thank you Judith. You're going to stay with us but let us now hear from Leanne Lucas. Leanne mentions Heidi, that's Heidi Little, her friend. She was the other teacher who ran the class with her. And just to reiterate the details of this can be extremely distressing.

If you have children listening you may want to turn the radio down. If you need any support or information you can find links to the BBC Action Line on our website. A lot of children in yoga clubs leading up to the summer were asking if they could have a themed Taylor Swift session. I'm an avid Taylor Swift fan so it suited me as well. Heidi's like one of my best friends so I really wanted her to do it with me. I think it booked out maybe within a week of really promoting it. I'd always have activities in my workshop and it made sense to be friendship bracelets because that's what Taylor Swift sings about. We went round the circle and they said how they were feeling and one of

the little girls said this is the best day of my life. I glanced out the window and obviously now I realise who I saw but at the time I didn't think anything of it. I didn't see him walking towards us but I just saw him. So he was right there. He opened the door and just grabbed a child. I didn't know what he was doing. He then grabs the next child and the next child. And then I shout, who is that? And then I struggle to get that part of the memory back

because he moves from the girls at the table and he moves over to right next to me. I just felt something go in my bag. So I don't I my brain just said he's got me so he got me and then he got me me and I just thought I needed to get some help so we were shouting run and I called 999 on the landing and asked for the police I see green again and I just went into pure panic mode of, he's chasing us.

Just wanted everyone to get out of the building. I just kept saying, there's children inside, there's children inside, there's children inside. My brain's going 100 miles an hour, but my body won't do anything. And then people are asking me questions, and I'm just saying, go and get the children. asking me questions and just saying go and get the children.

Are you okay? Yeah, I just... I just don't know what else I could have done. I get rushed to hospital and I do remember being in hospital. I asked someone if I was going to die. And she didn't say no. She just said you're in the best place. And it was just saying things like a possible paralysis, something about my lungs. Where did he hurt you? So he's got me in my spine. One had fractured my ribs as well and obviously then punctured my lung.

Then he got me on top of the shoulder blade and that was my lung. Then he got me in the top of the shoulder blades and that was fractured. And he got me here and then across my head and then the one on my arm. I opened my phone one night because my dad didn't want me to go on my phone. And there was videos of the riots on my street. So I was like, this is...

Are they trying to get me? I was just scared of everybody. And still thinking it was all my fault. If I hadn't arranged the day, if I hadn't have advertised in certain places, if I hadn't have used that studio. People have told us how you try to help the kids, get them out, incredible bravery. You just don't feel brave when you're the adult. The truth is that more children may well have died

if you hadn't done what you did. The police said we'd all be dead if me and Heidi hadn't done what we'd done and that gives nothing for the children who did die. That doesn't take that away. Why have you chosen to do this interview? I just feel like I'm able to be the voice of maybe people you can't hear who are involved in this story.

When he pleaded guilty, that's when you really found out the detail of what had happened. Well, I found out he pleaded guilty on the news. How did you feel? It's hard because I felt so angry. We knew he did it, he knew he did it, every single person knew he did it and he waited until the day of trial to say guilty and put every single family victim, witness, everyone in that position.

It's so shocking at how much evidence they had on him, at how he slipped through the net. Like you know when he was found with a knife on a bus. I mean I struggle to hear that and I don't I don't imagine what the bereaved families feel when they hear stuff like that. What is it that you'd like to see change? Someone's found with a knife down the street, automatic prison. Automatic. You know, people are saying things like, oh, we need to put more security on kids clubs and things.

We need to take the criminals off the street, actually. Because you can't lock your children up. What do you see the future looking like? I don't really look into the future, if I'm honest. Is it one day at a time? It's like an hour at a time. You said in court that you were surviving for the girls. What did you mean? caught that you were surviving for the girls. What did you mean? I guess what I'm trying to say is, you know, the only reason to survive is the fact that

I did get out and I am alive and the fact that the girls aren't really... I've got to stay alive for them. otherwise what's the point? These children represent goodness, I think. Just pure goodness. The happiness, how genuine they were, positive, the love of life. And just making the best out of every single moment. That's how I remember them. The teacher, Leanne Lucas, and she was speaking to the BBC special correspondent Judith Moritz.

Judith is still with me. Hearing from Leanne there, Judith, such a brave woman. You spent time with her and also some of the other people that were affected that day. How are they coping now? Well, you heard Leanne there saying, you know, when I asked her what's the future like, and she paused and then I thought, well, I could see in her face, you know, that she just didn't have an answer. And I said, is it one day at a time? She said, no, it's an hour at a time. And that sums it up, I think. It's the mental load of this,

the psychological load of it for her and for many of the other people involved. You know, this is a horrific situation involving very, very young children. So the ripple effect, obviously you've just heard from Leanne about her experience. There were very young children in the room, as young as five years old, who saw and experienced what happened, who were injured physically and others who weren't injured physically, still very much injured psychologically. I spoke as well to a teenage girl who was 13 at the time, now 14, in the making of this panorama programme. And she also is living day to day, but I think what they will say

is that they are determined to face a positive future, to bring whatever positivity they can. They have no other option frankly and so whether that's getting involved in charitable efforts which some of them are doing, there are charities that have been set up in memory of the three little girls who died, whether it's speaking out on uncertain issues which they feel are very relevant for public debate, you know those are the ways I think in which these lives are being rebuilt, but make no mistake, it will be a very long process for all of them.

And you mentioned one of the girls we're calling her Sarah, not her real name, the teenager that helped get the children out. I mean, just an incredible girl that was so instrumental in also helping that day as Leanne was as well. Why are they deciding to speak out now? I think there's a range of reasons. You know, as we said at the beginning, there was going to be a trial and they'd all geared themselves up for that trial in January. And as a result of it, they hadn't said anything publicly because legally they weren't able to. They had to protect the integrity of that trial.

They may have been called as witnesses. And then on the very first day, having psyched themselves up to go through the process of the court proceedings, the attacker pleaded guilty. And details about the attack did emerge at that point but perhaps not as much as may have come out had the trial happened and I think there was a frustration in the background, certainly I've heard this from both Leanne and from Sarah, the teenager, that they've seen a

lot of information on social media, they know to be wrong and that's been very hurtful and upsetting and they've said to me you know we want our accounts our direct words to be out there so people understand exactly what happened. I was struck there as well, do you, the listening to your interview with her that she mentioned social media in that aftermath and her worries that people might blame her. Yeah and doesn't that sound, I can hear it in your voice and I feel the same, how incredible that is. But certainly Leanne told me that in the immediate wake of the attack, and you'll remember of

course that within hours riots began in Southport, and she was in hospital, she was trying to stay off her phone, her family had said don't go on your phone, and when she looked at footage she realised the riots were pretty much on her doorstep. And the way her mind was functioning at the time she thought it was her they were coming for. That was the way she was thinking and since then I know she struggles, she's tormented herself with, you know, what if I hadn't had it that day in that location, if I hadn't advertised the class, those sorts of questions are something I know that she struggles with.

And in terms of, you know, I say to Leanne, I've said to the teenager involved and to others that there are lots of local people who came to help that day, who really showed the best of the community, ran in to try and save people. I've said to all of them, you know, you must think of yourself with pride. You're a hero and none of them will accept that to all of them, you know, you must think of yourself with pride. You're a hero and none of them will accept that. None of them. They all really recoil from that. It's not the sort of label they welcome. I think they all feel that certainly it was the best of the community in the aftermath. We saw the worst of humanity that day and

the way those children, their parents and the community have responded since has been astonishing really. Yeah, it is. I began watching it this morning. I should let people know that it is called Panorama, the South Port attack on BBC iPlayer and also on BBC One at 8 p.m. Extraordinary, really, some of the people as well that came to help on such a horrific day. To the Moritz, thank you very much for joining us. I do want to let you know again if you've been distressed by something you have heard, Actionline, you can get detail of organisations that offer information and support. The address online is bbc.co.uk forward slash actionline. online is bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. Now to Germany, Frederick Mertz. Conservatives have won Germany's election that is well ahead of rival

parties but short of the 30% vote share that they had expected he is now expected to become Chancellor. But the other big winner in Sunday's vote was the far-right Alternative for Germany, AFD. They are celebrating a record second-place result with 20.8%. So what sort of impact may this far-right opposition party have that is led by a woman have on the country? Joining me to discuss is the journalist and visiting research fellow at King's College London, Katja Heuer. Welcome Katja. Probably had a late night. How are you? So let's take a look at some of this presumably not a surprise. The AFD, the Alternative for Deutschland, is supported

in the former Communist East. The CDU, the Christian Democrats, we mentioned the Chancellor is from, dominate much of the Germany South and West. How do you see the night as a snapshot? Yeah, it was certainly a long night and not one without, you know, quite a lot of political development as well. When the first kind of projections came out last night, it still looked as though Germany was in for another three-party coalition, which it's kind of just come out of. That was deeply, deeply unpopular. You know, if you look at surveys, it was, you know, arguably the most unpopular coalition modern Germany has had, which is saying something.

So people were quite worried that they're in for another kind of squabbling three-way mess, but it looks as though two smaller parties are now not going to make it into parliament because they basically have to get over 5% of the vote. And so we're probably in for a centrist block of the winner of the election, the conservative centre-right party, working together with the incumbent SPD, the social democrats. So yeah, an exciting night with lots happening. And I think many Germans will have woken up this morning thinking at least it looks like a stable government might come about. Yes and of course but there is this divergence

shall we say that many perhaps are looking at and wondering what does it mean for Germany. There was one exit poll 18 to 24 year olds were more likely to back the left, a de linker party followed by the AFD which is a party to the far right. How do you understand that? I think it reflects a polarization in that generation in particular and I wouldn't be surprised if that's also along class lines because that was another poll that came out last night as well that showed that 38% of the working class vote had gone to the AFD. And I think these kind of polarization elements that we've seen in other countries as well,

they often reflect more strongly amongst the young because their social status, you know, kind of determines the kinds of lives that they lead and how acutely they feel the changes in society. They're out and about more than adults, they tend to be, you know, they use public transport, then schools, they kind of feel the social climate around them more acutely than adults, I think, and that's why maybe the polarization is stronger there between kind of the far left and the far right. Well let's talk about the AFD and Alternative for Deutschland or Alternative for Germany. I saw some people were co-opting the phrase, calling it Elise for Deutschland and they are referring to Elise Weidel. She is the

leader of that party, 46 years of age, I suppose really kind of getting centre stage now through this election. Tell us a little bit about her and how instrumental she is to the AFD success. Well she's an interesting character in that she's actually not very typical for her party. You know she leads a party that is very male dominated and you know she's a woman, she leads a party that insists of having a definition of family that basically is mother, father and children in its manifesto despite the fact that she lives in a same-sex relationship with a woman raising two boys with her wife. So leading a very different lifestyle, being female, being younger than a lot of colleagues as well, and kind of just standing out as somebody who's focused on the economy more than immigration is also something that makes her different from the bulk of the party.

So in lots of ways, when people speak to her as the speaker of her party, they're not really getting a sense of what it looks like underneath her leadership. And I'm just wondering, she's in a same-sex relationship, as you mentioned, with a woman and has children, yet talks about the traditional family. Does she explain the difference between the party position and her own personal life? It's certainly been awkward for her because, you her because journalists have made the same point to her. How can you be at the helm of a party that insists on a traditional family model that you don't yourself live at home? And she's actually tried to take that definition out of the party manifesto and then was overruled by her own party at the conference in January

and the membership put it back in with one of the kind of more radical leaders actually saying I can't believe we're even having this discussion so this was a direct challenge to her as the leader to say you know fine if you do what you want to do in your own life but as a party, we'll still stand for these very kind of conservative ideas. So I think what she's or what makes her quite an effective leader, if you want to call it that, is the fact that she's able to harness views and kind of directions within our party that she doesn't herself feel all that comfortable with, but she's happy to accept that in exchange for power and leadership and the ability to stay at the top. Very interesting. But people might be wondering, hang on, they've had such a

successful night, why won't they be part of the coalition? That is indeed what their voters will say and even beyond their voters, I've heard this from kind of centre-right voters as well, because they're worried that their party that's just won the election will now have to turn left for coalition partners, despite running on quite a right-wing manifesto as far as immigration and economic policy is concerned. So there are plenty of people in Germany asking precisely that question. I think it's a very specific situation in Germany where the country is so conscious of its own history,

specifically of its Nazi past, that it's basically been a post-war taboo to work with or even accept the possibility of parties further to the right than the conservatives. And this is called the firewall. So basically all other parties have agreed not to work with the AFD and that includes the conservatives, despite the fact that there's quite significant overlap on immigration and economic policy. They're the two hot button

issues of the election. So they, the conservatives, the winners of the election are now in a difficult position where they're, where they have promised things that they might not be able to deliver with left-wing coalition partners and then somehow still arguing that it's the right political choice not to work with the right-wing party. So that debate will continue no doubt these days. But with Miss Vidal, her deputy in the Bundestag, the German parliament, is also a woman, that's Beatrix Stork. If we go to the Left Party, Sarah Wagennecht, their leader, her politics have been described as left conservatism. Do you think with these women in leading positions, does it have any impact on some of the policies that affect women?

I think it does because it's interesting that, you know, previously the far right in particular actually struggled to get FEMA voters to vote for them. And I had a look at the kind of breakdown of the vote last night by gender. And it's interesting that women, I mean, it's still lower. The FEMA vote for the AFD is still lower, but it's something like 18, 19% of women also voted for the AFD and it did get just over 20%.

So whilst the vote is a little bit lower there, I think it did have an impact that you have, A, a woman at the top, and then B, somebody who presents a slightly perhaps softer or somewhat more moderate face to what is quite sort of radical politics. And that might sway a few female voters as well, I think that way. And the other thing is that public safety has become a big issue where lots of women genuinely now feel less safe on the streets because of a recent spate of terrorist

attacks and attacks perpetrated by people who came to Germany as asylum seekers. So Alice Weidel will find it much easier to come out and say, I know how you feel, I'm going to do something about it. That's interesting. So it's kind of an intersection of public safety or what may be a woman's issue with that of migration, which has been such a hot button issue. Yeah, and migration has previously been a much more of a male topic. This has been less worrying to female voters previously, but now that the safety issue comes into it, it isn't just about what society looks like or

whether you're kind of a pro or against migration person, especially as children were affected as well, children were murdered in some of these attacks. There will be mothers worrying about sitting in a park with their young children now and this is something that perhaps another woman who's also raising children might speak to more easily than a kind of male leader could. It's interesting. I mean there are echoes there as I listen to you Katja, I think of the US presidential campaign when it came to public safety as they talked about and immigration which of course we've heard Donald Trump on the stump many times speak about it in that way.

But the US has also had an impact I believe on this particular election. Elon Musk and the US Vice President JD Vance have been involved. Can you tell us a little bit what their impact was? Yeah that I think came as a bit of a surprise even to the AFD itself that they suddenly stridently came out in support of them. And it's also a bit of a bizarre situation in that the AFD has actually got quite a strong anti-American streak. So now suddenly they're finding themselves in a position where they're more closely aligned with American political figures than the center right CDU, which is actually a transatlanticist kind of party and traditionally the party that looks to the US, they've now been very critical of Donald Trump and his politics. So they'll have to balance

that somehow, but I think the impact that it's had was that because they focused on Alice Vidal and her brand of AFD politics, which as I say isn't what the bulk of the party is, it's given the AFD a more moderate image internationally, certainly Ali Svaidel speaks very good English as well, which is also a distinguishing factor between her and a lot of the other sort of party soldiers. And so she's able to go out there and speak to mask or speak to international news outlets and basically present her brand of AFD politics as the brand of AFD politics. And that may persuade people internationally to donate to the party, it may convince people or make people think that actually this is just Germany overreacting

because of its own past to a party that isn't that radical. And I've heard this certainly a lot from international journalists, why are you still calling the party a far-right party when really we've just seen Alice Weidel and she seems very sensible and isn't this just the German complex? And they would not call themselves a far-right party, the AfD? No, that's right. And that's the case that Alice Weidel has made internationally as well. She basically says we are the true centrists. Everybody else has moved to the left and we represent centrist politics.

That is her main message that she's trying to get across. Before I let you go, Katja, it is three years today since Russia invaded Ukraine. How large a part will the new German government play, do you think, in this ongoing conflict? Of course, there's a lot of important meetings taking place this week internationally. Yeah, I think it may well change quite a bit because the Conservatives are much more at ease with the idea that, you know, than previous parties that Germany might have to get involved in military conflict one way or another. So whilst Germany did emerge eventually as the second largest donor of military aid to

Ukraine, it was always incredibly reluctant under Chancellor Olaf Scholz to go the next step and the next step. Every time there was a discussion around new weapons to be delivered, it was him that put the brakes on it and basically made a point to say that Germany is still not really at ease with that idea. The conservatives have already said that they want to increase the military budget to be comfortably, the defence budget to be comfortably above the 2% threshold that NATO demands and they've also talked about reintroducing a kind of sort of military compulsory military service. And so under their leadership, it may well be more likely that Germany perhaps

even contributes something to the, you know, to the sort of upholding of any sort of peace line in Ukraine that may emerge in the near future. It feels like a real moment of change. Journalist and visiting research fellow at King's College London, Katja Heuer, thank you very much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Thank you. I want to turn to Greek tragedy next. Indira Varma is an Olivier Award-winning actor who starred in everything from Shakespeare to West End hits, The Game of Thrones. She's currently on stage at the

Old Vic in London playing Jocasta to Rami Malik's Oedipus and I'm delighted to say she joins me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome. Thank you. So lovely to see you. I was watching you just last week which was a wonderful production. You as Jocasta, as I mentioned, this iconic role. How did it feel to play it? It's been really great because we've had Ella Hickson adapting it. This is the writer. The writer. And because she's a woman, she's really looked after Jocasta and given her agency.

Because traditionally, Oedipus is performed publicly. All the scenes are sort of public to the people. And she's actually given Jocasta and Oedipus private scenes, which means that Jocasta is able to sort of confront him and argue a little bit with him and question what the hell he's doing. Yeah, she is very powerful. You are very powerful, this presence that you have on stage, even whether it's just a few words that are uttered or something longer. It's very atmospheric. It's set in the near future which I just found fascinating. I don't really know what that means,

dystopian. Everything's always dystopian. We feel that we are running out of water. Yes, we are. There's a drought in Thebes. Climate crisis, which exists now, but it's even more prescient, and things have to get done. And poor old Oedipus is pressured by the populist religious lot into consulting the oracle.

And of course, what is an oracle? What's the equivalent of an oracle nowadays? I sort of, this is my own personal interpretation, I feel that it's, it is social media but it's also the algorithm, its algorithms. We, as soon as we sort of search something up on social media, we get sent loads and loads of things which compound that thing that we're questioning. Yes. And it ends up pushing us to an extreme and we ask a question that we then don't want the answer for. It's such a good way of putting it and I think media that was really coming up in my mind when I was watching the sounds that were coming throughout the production trying to find answers but yeah perhaps you don't really want to know the truth

or that curiosity killed the cat. Exactly. How do you retain the element of shock with this play because many people going will know what happens. Yeah I don't really know. I think most people probably do know what happens you know no spoiler alerts. I think most people probably do know what happens, you know, no spoiler alerts. I mean, we all pretty much know. But we still get gasps. Yes, you did. And we also get laughs. There was one particular preview night when people were laughing so hard,

when I was sort of going, no, when it finally comes out that I'm Edith's mother. And, and it was sort of embarrassing, but I guess the Greeks invented irony. So that's something, but I don't know. We have to just, I think it's, you know, it's a who done it, but we all know, the audience knows who did it. And we just watch, they're watching this train crash in slow motion and we go along with that journey and that's the joy of it. Does it feel very different every night? Well it's really interesting working with the dancers so the chorus. Oh we have to tell about it. Yes yes let's talk about the dancers. Hafe Shekhter, amazing Israeli choreographer,

Zeshech Deh, amazing Israeli choreographer, he has 10 dancers, five men, five women, and they sort of represent, they're the equivalent of the chorus, but it's just movement. And electrifying. It's incredible, it's extraordinary. Such a privilege to be on stage with them and watching them. And they are, even though they're all individuals they're all allowed to move in their own way they're also incredibly unified and it causes it we it's visceral isn't it the experience of watching them you see chaos you see chaos you I think they represent what we feel on the inside and then we have the

sort of argument and there's a simplicity to our movement and also the dialogue is very spare. Um Yeah, I think that's does the This troupe of dancers that are there that that come and go And I found myself watching them as a group It's interesting that you talk about the and then I found myself zoning in on individuals as as the play progressed Do you think that changed in any

way your own physicality on stage? I mentioned your presence that you have. I think of you standing spine straight kind of as you take over this stage and I'm just wondering watching them or does it infiltrate in any way? No, I think it's nice to have the juxtaposition of, of course, I wish I... I am dancing in the wings when I'm watching them. I'm trying to learn what they're doing. But I think, because Hofesch also composes the music and that feeds into the energy of it and into what they're doing. And I think in a way we come in and sort of like laser and we do something very different and it's really nice to contrast with that. Yeah and I think the stillness helps so that the audience

then absorbs what we're saying and then watch what they are doing and feel. It's kind of you've got these words and then they've got this intense expression of physicality or visceral whatever we want to call it and then we go back to what the words are said but then the emotions that are behind it. It's like the rhythm that's happening inside. I think they are the rhythm inside us. It's a diverse cast including the children that are playing your daughters. How important was that for you? diverse cast, including the children that are playing your daughters. How important was that for you?

It's always important for me. I feel like we, everyone needs to tell their story and this story belongs to everyone, it's been told for over 2500 years. And how often has it been told by people of colour? Not very often. And it's a global story. And so, and I do feel like with all the wars that are happening around the world, we are maybe representing a different, even though this dystopian future, it could be happening anywhere. And I think being brown people, myself mixed heritage, we could be from anywhere, you know.

Yeah. Rami Malik is Egyptian Arab. Rami Malik is 43, you're 51. Not really old enough to be his mother. But do you have to think about that, like how to make that age gap believable? No, we didn't really think about it. I think what's quite nice is that we sort of look fairly similar. make that age gap believable? No, we didn't really think about it. I think what's quite nice is that we sort of look fairly similar,

so we could be related. We look plausible potentially as a couple, but also maybe we, you know, I think it's an energy you give. It's, I think I'm probably quite maternal towards him, or Jocasta is to Oedipus. And so you believe that dynamic. Were you sitting there doubting it? No, I was not sitting there. And you have a maturity. I'm trying to get across to our listeners. It's a regal presence that you have on stage. She's rational. He is irrational.

Yes. And he's scattered. Yes. And I think probably physically we're quite different. Yes. Maybe my stillness comes across as a maturity and wisdom, I'd like to think. And he carries the anxiety of having to give answers and solve this problem. He thinks he's taking responsibility

by solving the problem. She thinks he's being irresponsible by trying to solve the problem. He thinks he's taking responsibility by solving the problem. He thinks, she thinks, he's being irresponsible by trying to solve the problem. And that is one for the ages, which will always continue. Let me talk about a couple of other aspects because since you last came on this program, you won an Olivier Award for your role in Neil Coward's Present Laughter with Andrew Scott, who also won an award that year 2020. What difference does that make for you as an actor, winning an award like that? It feels like you've been invited to the party.

Sitting at the table. Suddenly you're sitting at a table. But does it make that much difference? I don't know. I feel like I've just been plugging away. I keep going back to theatre because I feel that's where I get my opportunities and slowly by, I've been doing this for a very long time, slowly by slowly the roles get bigger and I feel they've been getting bigger on stage and maybe a little bit on screen. Well that's interesting the stage and screen because I did read an interview you did that you talk about that,

not getting the same opportunities on screen that you do have on stage. Why do you think that is? Well, again, I think the diversity thing, I mean, that's... It doesn't matter quite so much what you look like, I think, on stage, whereas screen is a visual medium and I think it's taken a little bit longer to... we have to represent by what we look like sometimes. I was thinking, because I've heard you mention Succession and White Lotus. Oh yeah.

Yeah, were you a fan of this? Oh, massive. Okay, because I was thinking some of the great characters, whether it's Shiv, Sarah Snoog, Gerry, J Cameron Smith, who is in here with us not that long ago, White Lotus, Jennifer Coolidge came to my mind, Parker Posey in the latest Yes I Have Started watching. So is it something, would White Lotus be a role you would like? Desperate, desperately, yes. They heard it here first, they were like I just heard it.

I actually did have mentioned it in another interview already. I think they should do something in Goa or I'd be happy on skis somewhere in the Swiss Elf. Because you have Swiss Indian heritage. Yeah. That's quite a combo. Yeah. I'm liking this, so something on skis and kind of getting a Bond vibe or instead in Goa. Yeah.

I like the ridiculous aspects of White Lotus. Yes. That's what I want. We all do. Rather than bond. Okay. Yeah. Or maybe a new type of bond. Because I also read that you have a WhatsApp group going on with other actors. This is true? It is true, yeah. Sisterhood, solidarity, lots of women. Talking about whatever their issues are and supporting each other. And do you hear about juicy roles there? No, not so much. It's not a sort of an, oh, actor saying, oh, I've been up for this, that and the

other. It's, you know, life stuff. Life stuff. Yeah. Because without asking for you to divulge everything that's in the WhatsApp group but what is it do you think that that can be that you need help with that can be the more challenging part because every industry every role within an industry particularly if it's public facing can come with its own challenges gosh I mean there's so many things. It has started from health problems. You know, there are things where we want to ask advice from each other. Child support, you know, work-life

balance, that's really hard. And also advice within the industry of how to approach things. How to approach things. What a wonderful group to have. It's great. It's really good. I just wanted to add that I've done Book of the Week, which starts on next Monday, which is for Women's International Day, and it's called Dear Kabul. And that was also a WhatsApp group. Really? And it's Afghan Women. I'm just one of the

narrators and with Juliet Stevenson and a couple of other women and it's about it was started 2021 a WhatsApp group of Afghan women all over Afghanistan who were writers and they shared their experience of the Taliban invasion. And it's incredible. And it taps into exactly that. And I think when women get together, they support each other and those voices need to be heard. And it's really powerful. Book of the Week. Well, we'll keep an eye out and an ear for that.

I do know you were a judge for the Women's Prize for Fiction in 2024 reading 75 books in six months. Would you do it again? Do you know what I said halfway through I said never again, never again, because it was really hard. But then by the end we missed being women discussing all these women's voices. It was so exciting and so diverse in terms of the types of stories that women want to tell. terms of the types of stories that women want to tell. That was really exciting. Yeah, I think I would, but I need a break. Indira Farmer, she is currently on stage at the Ulvik in London playing Jocasta in Oedipus. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you.

Now, you may have missed last week's interview with Lisa Lloyd, mum to two autistic children who spoke to Anita about her book, Raising the Send Betweeners. She uses the term to describe children with a neurodivergence too severe for mainstream school but not severe enough for special school. She spoke about her experience of looking after her children. Especially with children with additional needs you need endless amounts of patience, you need to learn to pick your battles with things. But you know, it's not actually the children that are the hardest part of everything, it's the whole world around us. You know, fighting for school places, fighting for EHCPs, judgement

that you get from other people, from the general public, those are the main problems rather than actually our children. What support network do you have? Obviously friends and family are incredible. I literally couldn't deal without them and thankfully I've met some incredible friends online as well, people that get it. You know my friends have got other autistic children themselves, some with high care needs, some like myself with low care needs. But you know, we have so much in common in the way that our life is a little bit tougher.

And you know, even though our children are very different, we just understand it and there's no judgment there. Yeah, yeah. You've written this book to connect with other people going through the same thing, but what would you say to people who don't get it? You know, you talk about going for dinner in your books and feeling judged. I just think people, I wish that people would be more understanding and realise that, you know, what they see on the outside, they may not have realised all the battles that you've had that morning in getting your child out of the house, getting dressed, brushing their teeth. And I just

think we need to be a bit more kinder in general with everybody until we've walked in their shoes. Lisa Lloyd there speaking to Anita. And to listen to that interview in full, just go to BBC Sounds and search for Woman's Hour and you can find that programme from Thursday, the 20th of February. The Nigerian-American author, Nnedi Okorafor, is my next guest this morning. Nnedi is an award-winning science fiction writer and fantasy writer. Her book, Who Fears Death, won the World Fantasy Award and is in development as a TV series. Nnedi has also written comics

for Marvel including Back Panther, Long Live the King and Wakanda Forever. Her latest book is Death of the Author. It follows the story of Zelu, a fellow novelist, albeit a fictional one, and explores whether writing a bestselling novel is a blessing or a curse. Nettie, welcome. Thank you, happy to be here. Now I said Nigerian-American, you might say Niger-American. Niger-American, yes. And what do you mean by that word? It means Nigerian-American and Niger means Nigerian and I bring it, it's one word so it's Niger-American and I like that it's one word because it means that we're both and our own thing., it's one word. So it's Niger-American and I like that it's one word because it means that we're both and our own thing. But it's all ensconced together. Yes. I was immediately intrigued by your

main character, Zélu. Tell us a little bit about her. Well Zélu is, okay, so Zélu is a failed writer, Okay, so Zélu is a failed writer, a failed professor, and she is paraplegic as well, and she's Nigerian-American, and she comes from this big Nigerian-American family that's very invasive, all engulfing. Slightly overbearing. Yeah, okay, fine. We're saying that. So, okay, yes, yes. And so she's in the middle of this high achieving family that aren't appreciating her maybe would be.

Yeah, not appreciating her with love. Yes. It's always out of love and trying to understand her and having a hard time understanding her. She's very creative, she's very abrasive as well, she's very much herself. She's a lot, she's a lot and her family, you know, works to understand her. You're going to read an excerpt for us? Yeah, sure.

Yeah, this is Zélu embarking on writing her new novel. Yes, this is a very pivotal moment in the book. Yes, this is a very pivotal moment in the book. This time, it was different. She didn't want to write about normal people having normal problems, just to be told over again that her characters weren't relatable. She didn't want to research a world for years just to watch it burn. So she didn't. She wrote about those who weren't human.

She wrote a world that she'd like to play in when things got to be too much, but which didn't exist yet. She wrote a world. She wrote something else. Something new. She wrote about rusted robots. Ha ha. And we have the book within the book. So I'm kind of reading two books when I'm reading that book Death of an Author, which I'll come to why you called it that. But it is a science fiction novel with Zellou, our main character, who is a wheelchair user, as we mentioned.

She had an accident when she was 12. So she talks about basically how that can complicate her life at times. Why did you want to write about her and put rusted robots within your book? It's a lot. And it's a science fiction novel, but it's much more than that. It's science fiction, it is diasporic. And I wanted to write about, I wanted to, I wanted to write about Zélu, of course. So Zélu, like my stories tend to start with character. And in writing about Zélu, there was just so much, she has so many different aspects to her.

She's paraplegic, she's Nigerian-American, and even within the Nigerian aspect of her, her parents are Yoruba and Ibo. She's a writer in a Nigerian family, which is a lot. So like, there are all of these aspects that come in that make this story so complex, and it really starts with Zalu being a complex character. It also has a traumatic episode for her of cancel culture at her university which she gets fired. Why did you want to include that? Why not? I mean, she is in our world. This is our world.

The story is set just a hair's breadth into the future, just a hair's breadth. So it's very recognizable. Social media is definitely still a thing. And so of course, the way that she rolls, social media is going to have its effect. So it just made sense to include that side of things. That it's very much a possibility of what can happen. Her novel, within your novel, Rusted Robots becomes an instant bestseller. She gets money, fame, even ways of making her life as a disabled woman easier.

But it also brings its challenges. And she sometimes wishes she hadn't written Rusted Robots at all. How much of yourself are you putting into that experience? Fine, I'm going to tell on myself. A lot. I mean, Zélu was inspired by me, even though she's not me. There are many things. Like what? Oh, the things that she does?

Well, OK, so there are, she's very brash and impulsive. There are situations that she's in that were, that I took from my own life. And the difference was the way that she handles them versus the way that I handle them. So she will speak her mind. She will say those things that need to be said. So that part of it I love. There's some other things, you know, she likes to partake in substances a lot. She's got sex, drugs and rock and roll.

Yeah, she's very sex, drugs and rock and roll. That's that's Zélu. And that's very different, very different from me. And it was a it was a really interesting experience to write such a character. I loved reading about her. You didn't start life as an author. You spent much of your youth training to be a top athlete. You did develop curvature of the spine,

which put an end to that sporting career, but you did start writing there. Tell me about the differences or any parallels that you see. Yeah, the way that I started writing was directly related to sports. I played semi-pro tennis from the age of nine. I was also a track star. I did the 400, the mile, the high jump, all of that. And my athletic career ended, and I loved athletics. That was my thing.

And it ended when I had to have surgery for my scoliosis and there were complications. And that complication was that I woke up paralyzed, paralyzed from the waist down. And essentially ended up... What age were you there in that age? I was 19. Wow. I was 19. And I ended up having to... It was traumatic. That was the... It was sitting in a hospital bed where I discovered storytelling. It was literally that. I was just going into a dark place and I just started writing this story to myself and that was when I discovered storytelling and I haven't stopped writing since. So I had to learn, I had to relearn how to walk, all of that. And so when I wrote Death of the Author and I have this character, Zé Lu, in a lot of ways, so she is based on me even though

she's different. One of the things that I do when I'm writing is I explore, I go into those dark crevices, I go down those dark roads. In this case, I was thinking about if I had never been able to walk again, what would life have been like? That's how I came to Zalew being paraplegic. It's so interesting because I often think of science fiction or fantasy as writing about what-ifs. Yes, very much so. Very much so. And I definitely, that is often my inspiration to writing science fiction as well, that question of what if. It's a very powerful, just expansive, anything can happen. Yes, yes.

So you do put some of your own experience, I imagine, into Zellu. And I was struck by things, let's say, how technology intersects with disability or can have a positive impact. Driverless cars, for example. And I'm interested by how you imagine that. Do you put yourself in that time, in that place? I think, well, with driverless vehicles, that one I didn't have to, because I'm from Phoenix, Arizona, and we literally have autonomous vehicles on the road.

Yeah. I mean, I came to an intersection recently and there were five autonomous vehicles at that intersection. So that is something I didn't have to imagine. But one of the ways that I look at when I look at technology, I look at it from the point of view of someone who's disabled and how technology can make life easier. That's often just my automatic default of how I look at tech. And there's so many ways, and there's so many, we've already started melding with technology, everybody. We have our cell phones,

we can't be away from our cell phones, we know what that is. So it's just not a difficult leap to take for me. So interesting, death of the author. You'll have to come back to us, Nnedi Okorafor. It is out now. Lovely to have you in studio and to hear some of your thoughts in creating it. Tomorrow, a special treat again.

Joined live in studio by two of the country's best loved actors, Celia Imrie and Tamsin Gregg. They're currently playing mother and daughter in Backstroke in a new play in London that unpicks the complications off the mother daughter relationship over a lifetime. I'll see you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

I was definitely too young when I was leader of the opposition not to do many of the other jobs I did in Covent. Admissions and insights from the people who shape how we think. I would say my family gave myself and my two siblings a critical eye. And because it's not just politicians who mould our lives, we also hear from economists, comedians and bestselling authors. It's the fastest way to change things. You do need politics, but if you want to change something overnight,

culture is the quickest way to do it. Conversations, not newsy interrogations. That's Political Thinking with me, Nick Robinson from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.