Woman's Hour - Southport inquiry, Cam, DCI Helen Tebbit

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

The Southport inquiry - the first phase of which took place in Liverpool this week - heard statements from the families of four girls who survived despite being seriously injured during the attacks on 29 July last year. The public inquiry heard testimony from one of the girls' mothers, who said her daughter 'fought like hell' to save herself and others. Anita Rani speaks to Judith Moritz, BBC Special Correspondent, about some of the eyewitness accounts.An exhibition celebrating the life and work of renowned Australian artist Emily Kam Kngwarray opens today at the Tate Modern in London. Respectfully known as ‘the old lady’ by her community, Emily didn’t start painting on canvas until her 70s. She went on to produce over 2,000 paintings and achieve huge critical acclaim before her death in 1996. Anita talks to art curator Kelli Cole about Emily's often monumental paintings, which were inspired by her life as a senior Anmatyerr woman from the Sandover region of the Northern Territory of Australia.Chief Inspector Helen Tebbit of Cambridgeshire Police joins Anita to talk about her role as senior investigating officer in a rape investigation which resulted in a sexual predator, Craig France, being jailed for more than 10 years - as featured this week in the Channel 4 TV series, 24 Hours in Police Custody.Camaron Marvel Ochs, known professionally as Cam, is an American country music singer songwriter. Her most successful single, Burning House, received widespread acclaim and went triple platinum. She has written for a range of artists including Sam Smith and Miley Cyrus, and last year she received a Grammy award for songwriting, production and backing vocals for Beyoncé's Cowboy Carter album. Anita speaks to her about her career so far and her forthcoming album – All Things Light Up.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. DCI Helen Tebbit, who runs the rape investigation team at Cambridgeshire Police, will be here to tell us about one of the most difficult cases she's ever worked on, the investigation into rapist Craig France, which has been televised

as a two-part Channel 4 series, 24 hours in police custody. Also on the program we have music from country singer Cam who's written songs for Miley Cyrus, Sam Smith and who won a Grammy for songwriting production and backing vocals for Beyonce's Cowboy Carter album. And yesterday I went along to the Tate Modern to see an extraordinary exhibition, a stunning retrospective of Emily Kama-Angware, a prolific and preeminent Australian artist, an Aboriginal artist who died in 1996. But Angware didn't start painting until after the age of 70, a remarkable woman who you'll be hearing all about.

This morning I'd like to hear your stories of what you've started later in life that's brought you recognition. We don't all get major art exhibitions but in your own way what did you begin maybe after you retired that took your life in a different direction. But first, the Southport Inquiry, the first phase of which took place in Liverpool this week, heard statements from the families of four girls who survived despite being seriously injured during the attacks on the 29th of July last year. The public inquiry had testimony from one of the girls' mothers who said her daughter fought like hell to save herself and others. Three young girls were murdered. Alice Aguiar, nine, Elsi Dot Stankum,

seven, and six-year-old Bibi King. I spoke a little earlier to the BBC's special correspondent Judith Moritz. I should say some of what we talk about is distressing to hear. I began by asking Judith what the purpose of this inquiry is. Well the the inquiry sat for two days this week really to open proceedings so the purpose to get it going to open open it, the first day was the chair, Sir Adrian Fulford, laying out essentially what the purpose of it will be, what his work will involve. And then we moved on very swiftly to hearing from some of the parents of some of the children who were hurt and who survived.

And it's worth saying, I think, that, you know, it was very clear from the beginning, from when the chair began to speak, that his intention, his purpose is to put the children at the heart of this, their families, their parents, but those children, their stories, now they're anonymous by court order, so we can't tell you their names, but that doesn't mean, I think, that they won't be present. You know, that was my sense. I was sitting in the inquiry room and although, of course, the children weren't there listening to the proceedings over the first couple of days, you know, they were really at the forefront of everybody's minds. So what was heard?

Well, after the opening remarks, as I say, we went into listening to these testimonies from the parents of surviving girls. Now, you'll know, of course, terribly, sadly, that three little girls did not survive. And we will hear about them during the course of this as well, because this inquiry, I should say, also counts as an inquest for those three children.

But as well as those three children there were eight other little girls who were very gravely wounded but who survived physically and another 15 girls and they were all little girls in this dance and yoga class, the Taylor Swift themed dance class you remember that they were taking part in. Another 15 little girls who got out of that room and they weren't physically hurt but by gosh, you know, we really had laid bare the extent to which they've been psychologically damaged. And so yesterday's hearing was incredibly moving. We listened to the parents of four of those children talking about the way their lives have changed ever since that day. And how are the surviving girls coping nearly a year on? What did the parents have to say?

Quite simply, life will never be the same. You know, whether it's a physical or a psychological injury, some of the children have had lots of surgery and physical rehabilitation to go through, but it was really the psychological mark, I think, that was writ large to me listening to testimony. Let me give you some examples. You know, a nine-year-old who said always now to look over her shoulder whenever she goes anywhere. Seven-year-old who can't go out for the day unless she's been reassured that her parents

have done a full safety plan for wherever they're going. And a heartbreaking image that I came away with of a little girl who sometimes won't go to school and her parents find her hiding under the dining room table. And this is a year on, it's nearly the year anniversary. These are all very young children, primary school aged children in the main. There was a teenager there as well who was helping out, I should say, and she was hurt too. But it's you can only wonder at the road ahead. And that, that I think is one of the things that that spoke to me listening to these parents,

the parents of these surviving children talking about how parenting them is incredibly lonely. They don't know what the future holds because they're working it out as they go along. There's no handbook for this. And for these parents who are building a scaffolding, they said some of them, around the children to just give them a normal life, but the effort that that takes, the thought that goes into it, particularly at this time of year. Sunny day in Southport today, just as it was nearly a year ago, schools are breaking up soon, it's starting to feel that sense of deja vu, the dread of the anniversary approaching too. So the inquiry, we've had two days now of it, but it's now going to stop, it's been adjourned for the summer and then it'll

pick up again in September. And at that stage, we'll hear from the rest of the parents of the other children. And also, we'll hear testimony about the three girls, Bibi, Alice, and Elsie, who were very sadly killed as well. So that's the first part of the inquiry. And then we'll move into more procedural business about the attack itself, about whether it could have been prevented, what missed opportunities

were there. And also more widely, ultimately, this inquiry will end up with a second phase in future as well which asks wider questions about this country and whether it's set up, whether it has the systems in place to deal with teenagers like the attacker in this case who are obsessed with extreme violence but don't have a particular political or religious ideology. The question is whether they are slipping through the net of our counter-terrorism systems and whether more needs to be done there. And you mentioned the attacker there, Axel Rudekibana. His brother Dion is taking part in the inquiry, but there's some concerns raised about the extent of his participation. Can you tell us more about that?

Yeah, he has been given, along with lots of other individuals and organisations, what's called core participant status. And what that means at a public inquiry is that you have the right to legal representation. Your lawyers representing you can therefore ask questions of witnesses. They can also have access to all the material, all the disclosed documentation and information which the lawyers in these sorts of inquiries get to see. Now the concern has come from obviously the families of those little girls. How much will he see? Why does he need to take part? What's his role? And there's an interesting ruling which is sitting on the inquiry website. You can go to have

a look. And that sets out that there will be some very tightly drawn parameters around his participation, including for example, the fact that he won't be given involvement beyond the time in the chronology. If you look at this and why they are looking at the attack, how it could have been stopped perhaps, chronologically they'll be looking at the background to the attacker, his childhood, his upbringing, his family situation, and then they'll be looking at the day of the attack itself, or what they have decided, what the chairman has decided,

is that the brother, Dion Erudica Banna, will only be given information and access and participation up until the point when the attacker, his brother, left the family home to go and carry out the attack. So he will be involved in, I suppose, legal discussions around what happened in the run-up, the background to it, but not the day itself and the aftermath. And information was revealed about the role that the adults played in the room and how

the girls reacted. Tell us more about that. Well I mean since the attack happened nearly a year ago we've, you remember of course there was no full trial because the attacker pleaded guilty at the very last minute and then therefore information about what happened has come out piecemeal if you like and I think the inquiry will be the moment where we get very detailed information, but already listening to the parents talking about what their children experienced. What we got yesterday, as well as hearing about the effect on those little girls, we got a child's eye view, if you like, of the attack, because the parents

told us in the hearing what their children have told them about what happened. And one of them said that, you know, undoubtedly the teachers there, there were two teachers running the class, they helped other children to get out. But it was an absolute stampede. And she said, and her little girl was in a situation where she had to get out herself. Everybody was leaving, it was chaos, and this little girl in particular, she got herself out. But then, and I remember, you know, this has been shown on CCTV in the trial hearing, you can see on CCTV that she got out and the attacker pulled her back in, and she got herself out again. And this little girl's mum told the inquiry yesterday,

she's in no doubt that her child is responsible for her own survival. And that's something that as she grows up and understands what happened that day, she'll be making sure her little girl understands that she had that agency, she saved herself. And another girl shielded other little girls. Yeah, these sorts of details, heartbreaking, you start hearing about this, yeah, children are running down the stairs and one of the children shielding another, I know also of a story of, I mentioned the teenager earlier, 14 years old at the time, she led children

to safety. All of these details are now coming out and if you just stand back for a minute and think about it they're coming out because it's the children who are telling us and we're telling their counselors telling their parents who've told grown-ups in their lives this is what happened to me you can only wonder at the impact that that long term is going to take. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was hard enough, Judith, reading the details in the papers this morning. I wonder what the atmosphere was like in the town hall. Well, silent. I mean, utterly, you could have heard a pin drop because, you know, these inquiries, this inquiries, in a grand setting, the council chamber at Liverpool Town Hall, mahogany seating, you can imagine, you know, the sort of grandiose

setting and yet what you're listening to is intimate, intimate, personal, familial details. Some of the parents said that they thought long and hard about whether or not they even wanted to come and talk about what happened because it felt like they were going to be giving a little piece of their own personal story and their children's privacy away. And they've done it. They were in no doubt, they said, because they all feel the need to contribute to an inquiry which they want to see make real change. That's why they came to speak. So I think the atmosphere was respect. I mean, the room was full of lawyers and journalists. And I was looking as well as watching these parents speaking.

And they were emotional. One of the mums pretty much cried all the way through her statement, but kept going, determined to get to the end. I was watching the chair of the inquiry who was fixed on her. He was watching her so intently you could see that he was taking this in as setting the tone for the mark of the whole thing. He will have this in mind I've no doubt as the hearings progress. And when he starts to listen to lawyers asking tough questions of organisations and you know the police, the local council, all of the different agencies who may have had

dealings with Axel Rudekebaner in the past. The tone will change then, it will become a different kind of thing but I've no doubt that what we sat through yesterday and what we'll have again by the way when we go back in September with all the rest of the parents, I think that will inform the tone of the rest of the proceedings. That was the BBC's special correspondent Judith Moritz speaking to me a little earlier this morning. 84844 is the text number. I asked you this morning if there's anything that you started later in life that might have brought you recognition a bit later. Sheila

says I published my book, Can I Speak to Josephine please? Last year when I was 67, I'm now working with universities and other institutions to improve experiences in nursing and midwifery. And Genevieve says, in my mid-50s, I took up writing, having dabbled all my life. In 2021, I was long listed for the Women's Prize Discoveries Award, and at the age of 59, my debut novel, No Oil Painting, a reverse art heist at the National Trust, will be published in October. Congratulations, I've finally worked out what I want to be when I grow up. That's brilliant, better late than never. And the reason I asked is because of who we're about to talk about.

An Australian artist who only took a painting on canvas in her 70s has a landmark exhibition opening at the Tate Modern in London today. Emily Kama-Angware, respectfully known as the Old Lady by her Aboriginal community, produced nearly 3,000 paintings and achieved huge critical acclaim before her death in 1996. Her art is often monumental and depicts the women's dance ceremonies of her indigenous community, the plants and animals of her country and her spiritual connection to it. And Warre's show is being touted as one of this summer's blockbusters.

With me in the studio to discuss her and the work is Kelly Cole. Welcome to Woman's Hour Kelly. I went to see it yesterday and actually it was, I was blown away, it was incredible and I felt very emotional. But it's not just me saying this because the reviews are out and I'm sure you've read them all. A knockout show, stunning, a belated debut. How does it feel bringing her work to a new audience in the UK? Yeah, hi, well thank you for having me here. Look, it's extraordinary. We did an exhibition of hers at the National Gallery of Australia in, you know, December 2023. But having

it here in London and for a European audience is so exciting. You talked about the emotion that you felt. I've done quite a few tours and have been around enough people in the galleries and they are all saying they are feeling that emotion. They're trying to understand and grapple with what is making their body, you know, react to these paintings. What is it? You're the curator. Tell us what is it that we're feeling. Well, look, you know, Inwadi herself said, you know, she painted her country and people, she loved her country so much that means that if people are loving her paintings, they're loving her country. So she is so proud of what she painted. I think it's the energy that

she put within her painting. We talk about the fact that she was an older lady. She lived a life on her country. She did her wulia, which is women's ceremony song and dance, as you mentioned. You stand in front of these paintings called a wulia. They are striped paintings of multi-colours, they are representing that body paint of painting up and they vibrate with energy. You feel that energy in that room, you feel like those women are singing and all in what they are singing and you feel the energy of them, you know, in their country painting up. Before we discuss what people will see, because it's always very interesting trying to describe

art on the radio, but that's why you're here, you're going to do it for us. I think we should understand who she is. Let's start at the beginning. Who was Emily, Kamma and Wairé? Well, look, and Wairé was born around 1914 on a country called Alokra. Alokra is 240 kilometres away from Alice Springs, so right in the centre of Australia. The other thing about our country is it is in the centre, it is a spiritual place. She spent her time working on stations, you know, prior to being an artist.

She actually started doing batik, so that is a technique, a batik technique, for 11 years, even before she moved into the painting medium. The other interesting thing about her, when we say that she only started painting in 1988-89, she'd been painting on her body and other women's bodies, you know, for generations. Everything is very gestural. So if you think about how she moved her hand across the chest, across the breast, and across her arms, if you think about how she moved her hand across the chest, across the breast and across the arms to do that painting in ochre, natural ochre pigments, and then she moves on to doing her painting.

Using the same style and the same strokes. Same strokes, just with a brush in her hand. So she was born in 1914. That's correct. Australia's Northern Territory spent her entire life in her ancestral homeland and then colonises as we know appeared in Australia in 1870s. What would life have been like for her when she was growing up? Well, it's interesting if we even talk about her name, so Emily Kama Nware. Her name, Kama,

is a name that was given to her at birth from her grandparent or a family member. Nware is what we call a skin classification name. So it's not a surname like we do. So it's a name that is how you sort of are situated in your community. There's a story about Inwaday when she was about 12 or 13. The first time she ever saw a white fella on a horse. They look like a ghost to her. Her and her friend were terrified, and she runs away.

So the other thing about the Northern Territory, it was colonised a lot later than the East Coast of Australia. So we're talking about 1925 around that period is when she first saw a white person. Can you tell us about the arts? I know it is difficult to describe it on the radio, but how has it evolved? Tell us what people will see at the exhibition. Well, look, what is really wonderful, we start with actually her batiks. Obviously, we talked about that, but her first painting is called Immu Woman. Now, Immu Woman is like a self-portrait of itself. You will see this amazing Immu rib cage within the painting.

The reason she paints the Immu is her country, we talked about Alokra, a sibling country right beside her, Anunkara. If you think of Europe, you have your two countries that have borders. And those countries are sibling countries, they're Imus. And so they're these two Imu brothers. And her country, Alokra, is the sibling country. So she paints a lot of representations or iconography of emus and emu footprints to begin with.

But she changed her style over the eight years she painted. She's got about six different styles. So iconography I talked about, so that's circles, tracking. She moves into fine dotting over the top of paintings, linear works, and those lines that are, you saw them squiggle across a canvas, go backwards and forwards in multi, multi colours and then just the lines across, directly across the canvas. And you do say it's very hard to describe works when you're on the radio, but to see the show, all of the works are just extraordinary

vibrant colours. Vibrancy, that's what I was going to get to, it was the use of color and there's one huge piece that really stands out, you kind of walk through all of them and you're already in a space, it's so prolific, there's so many, it's such a satisfying exhibition because there's so much to see. But explain what that huge piece is that really struck me. Yeah, so you're talking about the Alocra Suite, again, that name of her country. It's a 22-panel work.

It is multicoloured. We say it's like a kaleidoscopic view of country. Again, for Aboriginal people, we don't just have the four seasons. We have multiple seasons. That painting would have been, you know, it represents the morning sun, the evening sun, the different, you know different changes during those seasons. Our country is just so alive and it changes all the time. Beautiful blues.

The other thing about our country is our horizons go on forever. Her country is red escarpments and it's like a multifaceted view of her country. And you said her work is inspired by her country, but also the women's song and dance ceremonies of the community. Tell us more. Yeah, well, Lamarra had been doing a wulia, ceremony, song and dance, her whole life. She would have participated in it

when she was a younger woman. And obviously she was a senior matriarch of her country. So she ran on saying those songs. So when you come into the exhibition, you hear her voice and her song to begin with and she is singing that imu awulia. And I think that's a really beautiful thing because we talk about our ancestors. And in Wadah, she's passed now, she's nearly 20 years since she's passed. So we talk about her and ancestor within her country now. So, you know, there's a beautiful video halfway through, sort of again explaining what a Wilier

is. And so you see this amazing video of six ladies all painting up doing that emu or Wilier and the singers on the ground singing that song. So when did fame and fortune come her way? What was the twist in her tale? What happened? Yeah, look, you know, we talk about she is an older woman. In 1993, she wins a major award, so the Clemardier Award. And that was actually that a Lochrasweet painting that

we talked about. So then she's also presented by the Prime Minister of Australia with an award which has a cash value to it. At that point, she sort of says, I'm, you know, finished. I'm old, I'm now retiring, I want to give up. But she continues to paint. The dealers are aware that her paintings are selling, the collectors are lining up to buy her work, she's getting commissioned to do paintings. And she passed away in 1976. 1977, the year after she passed, she's represented in the Venice Biennale with three other, two other First Nations artists. So she really was an artist even way back when she first started painting, quite famous in that sense.

And you worked with her descendants to bring this exhibition to life. Look, I also met her as well when I was younger. Tell me about that. So growing up in Alice Springs, my uncle, Rodney Gooch, who is mentioned all the way through the text, was actually one of her first art advisors. So I went to Utopia a couple of times with my uncle Rodney, watching them do batik, and then she would come into town with a couple of the ladies in paint at my uncle Rodney and uncle Robbie's house. Robert Cole is actually my uncle, he was an artist and Rodney was his lover, his partner. The ladies would just gather under the tree, chat, paint. Our artists paint on the ground, they do not paint on an easel. The canvases are

not stretched when they paint and it's like painting that country on country which is really, really important. And your own involvement, is it vital that you're also an Aboriginal woman from the same region? Yeah, look, that is a really lovely question. What's been happening over probably the last 25 years, us First Nations curators are curating our shows about our own people. Yeah. You know, we work with the community. I say that we collaborate.

I don't believe in consultation. Consultation is going in and out of communities and doing a little bit of work. My relationship with her family and her descendants now will be forever. It's a community that's only 240 kilometres away from where I live in Alice Springs. I see them all the time and I go out on community all the time. I must add that every painting, every photograph, every text, anything that is included in this exhibition has been approved by family and that's really, really key to this exhibition. Do you think it's possible for the Western art world and the audiences to fully, truly appreciate her work?

Look, I think her work is just beautiful regardless. We really have written a lot of text so the European audience could understand it. If they want to read that text it's really important because the key themes of her we talk about a lolcrow her country, we've mentioned a woolly already so women's ceremony song and dance, the emu which is so so important. There is a feeling there's this the gestural marks that I talk about that is you these paintings, it's sort of just visceral. It's just this feeling. I think the audience are really going to love

it. Abstraction, European audience, it's a word that you understand what it means to see a painting. We don't say her work's abstract. We don't use that word at all. She never saw any other artist paint. She never copied anyone else. She is just painting. That in itself incredible. Topographical views of country is what you're seeing. So that fine dotting, you're looking down on country. And so when I just went back to abstract is when you're looking at these striped lines of paintings across the canvas, that is women standing up painting.

That's why they vibrate. That's why they move. That's what you can feel within an expanse of country. You are seeing seasonal changes. You are seeing just the evocativeness of our country. Yeah. And I suppose I was sort of experiencing it and thinking about a woman whose land was colonized and then here she is in this great institution being, you know, quite rightly, I guess that's part of the emotion,

you know, here she is, this is where you belong and these people are recognizing who you are. Yes. How does that, what is that feeling for you? Well, for me, I mean, I'm just proud and privileged. I say, you know, I'm just a privileged person to be able to be the, you know, lead curator of taking a work around the world. And I feel this sense of real joy, but it's all, it's also for me to make sure that the community get this sense of, you know, pride or they are included in this extraordinary

story. So sending photos home all the time of the opening. When we, you know, you started by saying this old lady, that's the term of endearment that they say about her. And they say our old lady is famous, and she's famous because she paints their country. So we also say this is a living retrospective, because even though Imare has passed away, her family have taken up those cultural obligations of doing the wulia, singing those songs to the country so that country is alive and can give back to them.

You met her. What do you think she'd make of her own exhibition at the Tate? Look, she had her own, you know, I say that Iwade was a businesswoman as well. She chose to paint who she wanted to paint for. She was very proud of her paintings. She visited Sydney to get that award like I said in Canberra. She would just be smiling. She was a very happy, happy person. So she would have been loving it.

Well, I'm definitely going to go and see it a second time. Thank you so much for coming in Kelly Cole. That exhibition runs from today until the 11th of January at the Tate Modern in London. Thank you. Now you may remember last year, we featured some fascinating topics suggested by you during Listener Week. That's from our relationships to our tummies to later in life lesbians. And if you've got a personal story that you'd like to share with us, Listener Week is coming up. Let us know. Last year, Siobhan Daniels contacted us to tell us about her alternative way of living, giving up her home and possessions and taking to the road in her retirement.

I literally woke up one morning and I thought motorhome. And it was like a eureka moment. And I'd never holidayed in one, never driven one, hadn't got a clue. And I remember turning the key in the ignition in the motorhome in 2019, sort of giggling and crying at the same time thinking, what the heck are you doing? Where are you going? And I genuinely didn't know, but I somehow had this innate belief that it was going to work out and I was going to find my happy place. And I have. Siobhan there, still embracing the nomadic life in her motor home and quite appropriately

took up something completely different later in life. As I said, do get in touch with us. We'd love to hear your fascinating stories and issues, whatever you think is worth us taking a deep dive into here on Woman's Hour. Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844 or you can email the program by going to our website. I'm going to read a couple more of your messages. Jan says, I'm 71 and I took up running competitively in my 50s. This year I ran my first ultra marathon 35 miles, walked the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu and last year I climbed Kilimanjaro reaching the top when many others didn't. Very inspiring. Keep them coming in. Now in a two part episode special this week, Channel 4's TV series 24 Hours in Police

Custody follows Cambridgeshire Police's investigation into a rapist and voyeur, Craig France, a 33-year-old lorry driver. France pled guilty and was sentenced to 10 years and 7 months in March this year after admitting sex offences against four women. He also was handed an indefinite sexual harm prevention order. These orders put restrictions on an offender's behaviour to prevent further sexual offending. Police say he was found to have targeted young women at nightclubs, plied them with alcohol before bringing them to his home where he had set

up hidden cameras. DCI Helen Tebbott, who runs the rape investigation team at Cambridgeshire Police, who oversaw the investigation into France joins me now. Welcome Helen. Thank you. It's striking that when your team begin the investigation into this case, it starts with a report from one young woman several years after the alleged incident with the word of one victim. So when I was watching it, I thought, where do you even begin with an investigation like this?

So actually, the majority of cases that we will receive as a rape investigation team are word on word cases. Sexual violence is something that usually happens behind closed doors. So the team are used to managing these kind of investigations when you only have one victim and they are telling us what's happened. So it's all about ensuring that we put the victim in the centre of the investigation and understand everything and listen to everything they are telling us and really truly get to grips with the context of the offending, understand how has the perpetrator managed to exploit that victim and perhaps exploit their vulnerabilities in order to be able to commit those offences

against them. So that's the way in which we would start every investigation. And he was known by countless bouncers, security guards, bartenders, he was really involved in the nightclub scene but he wasn't known to the police. That's right, he had no real criminal history but was very well known, very active on the local social scene and from our enquiries everyone knew him to be this sort of friendly guy and certainly knew him by first name and easily recognizable. And so at what point can you then arrest him? What happened? So early on in the investigation we obviously had the accounts of two of the brave victims that

came forward to tell us about their concerns. We then arrested him at the beginning of September last year and it was on arrest that we downloaded some of the devices that we'd seized and from that we found some really concerning videos and images and that began to sort of clearly show us that the scale and scope of this investigation was clearly significantly greater than we initially thought. So what happens when you're doing your job and you discover, because you discovered footage on his phone, you found cameras on his property, I mean tell us what else you found and just how momentous a change that was into the investigation?

So I think it's really quite rare for us to recover in these cases of adult sexual offending images and videos of the act actually taking place. And so the fact that we'd found those images on his devices meant that we needed to reconsider how we went into his property, what level of search we needed to complete to ensure that we were looking at any kind of devices that he could have been using. He'd got lots of different covert equipment within the house. He had glasses where he'd got cameras within them as well as obviously cameras that were fixed within his home and one specifically that looked out over the hot tub. So all of that gave us a real indication of the concern that we were uncovering in terms of how broad

his offending could be. It's really horrifying to watch the programme and really shocking and actually at one point I was watching you and your team reviewing the footage and I thought how are they coping with it? It's not pleasant having to pour through thousands in this case of images of sexual abuse taking place and you obviously see so clearly in this case and as we've seen on what's gone out on the television how the victims were completely incapable, they didn't know what was happening, they'd been put in a position where they were incredibly vulnerable, couldn't possibly

have consented to what was happening. So to watch that was very impactful for the whole team. You had to identify and then tell women that they'd been assaulted, many of whom had no idea. What was that like for you, for your team and for the women? So I think that's probably one of the most sort of difficult parts of this investigation because clearly normally we know someone has been abused because they tell us this case obviously was quite the contrary and we had to think about how are we going to go and have that

conversation and alter somebody's life forever when they had no idea that this had happened. So we really had to consider our strategy for doing that, ensure we had a really good package of support available for that individual once we'd broken the news but it was definitely something that we needed to consider very sensitively because we knew that we were going to change their lives unfortunately. Now Helen you and the Cambridge Police Force have said you believe that there are more victims so you're willing to investigate anything further that comes up but sticking with the investigation featured in 24 hours in police custody France got a reduced sentence due to entering an early guilty plea. Why only

10 years? Well, obviously the sentencing powers are there and the judge applied them. And clearly when someone enters a guilty plea prior to trial, which he did, there is credit given. Obviously we charged or he was convicted on a single offence of rape and then there were the additional charges of voyeurism, exposure and sexual assault which carry much less in terms of sentencing. So that all comes into the 10 year sentence. Considering the volume of evidence and the facts, Judge Mark Bishop, who sentenced France, said that France had a sense of sexual entitlement and that his behaviour was concerning.

Is that enough? I think for me personally, no. I think sexual violence is the most serious crime to commit and sentencing powers should reflect that, but clearly we work within the system that we have and I think perhaps the more that we can do to ensure that sensing powers for some of the non-contact offences like voyeurism, like exposure, recognising the seriousness of those in the coming years might help make a change. You also bring up the case of Wayne Cousins, the police officer who kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard. He's now serving a whole life term with regards to these early offences of exposure as needing to be taken seriously. Do you feel there's been a shift

around this when it comes to policing? Absolutely there has. There's some really significant inquiries that have happened nationally. We've got Operation Satira which is the new national operating model for rape and serious sexual offence investigations but also the Angelini inquiry that looked into the Wayne Cousins offending and how police consider non-contact offences like exposure and I think this case certainly highlights for us and it does nationally how important it is because it kind of stands as that first piece of offending we actually had about him and he's gone on to commit much more serious offenses afterwards. So you know, I think if the program shows people how important it is to be able to report

exposure when they see it, then it might give us as the police the opportunity to understand who the perpetrators are and divert them away from more serious crime in the future. Yeah, and I guess in terms of your experience as a police officer, I mean, culturally that's such a huge shift. We used to talk about, I remember when we were young, I was young, talking about flashes, I went to an all-girls school and there was somebody who used to come and it was almost like a joke. and now we're taking it very seriously. Yeah and I think your experience probably isn't unique.

I think lots of people have considered and still do perhaps that it's something that's funny, but I think when you start looking at it as this precursor offence to something far more serious, I think that's where we get, but we need the public's help because these are offences that largely, you know, the police don't come across, we need the public to report it for us to be able to manage it and move forward. I'm going to bring up some stats that you're very aware of, I'm sure. According to the Office of National Statistics, in the year ending June 2024, around 36% of all sexual offences recorded by the police were rapes. But home office stats for a similar period

ending March 2024 show that the proportion of rape offences that resulted in a suspect being charged was less than 3%. What should the police be doing if people, women, are coming forward but charges aren't being brought. So we are working very very hard to to change those statistics and to make and to create more successful outcomes for victims of rape and sexual violence but it is an incredibly difficult, probably the most difficult offence to get the evidence required to be able to a get through the evidential assessment we require for the Crown Prosecution Service but obviously then go on to get an outcome at court. But again, with the work that's

gone on nationally over the last few years, Cambridgeshire Police have adopted Operation Satiria as a new operating model. We are applying all of the learning in that, really looking at context of offending, which I think historically we would focus on what has the victim done, what are their actions, how have they in some way enabled this to happen. Whereas now we focus entirely on the circumstances. What has the offender done? How have they managed to groom that victim, exploit their vulnerabilities for their own sexual gain? And by twisting it and focusing where we always should have been on the perpetrator, we are slowly getting more and more success. Yeah, it's a really poignant moment. I mean, it is a very harrowing watch,

but especially when you're having to tell these young women what they've been through and they have no idea, where one of your officers is explaining how it's not her shame to carry, that it's not her fault, because she feels horrendous about it. Absolutely. She's blaming herself. And I think, you know,

trauma and sexual violence affects people in so many different ways. And I think, again, this is where we've learned a lot in policing over the last few years of how to recognize how trauma affects a victim throughout their processing of what's happened to them. It might take them a long time to report what's happened. That isn't a negative thing.

That's not a problem for an investigation. And we recognize that that and by understanding how trauma affects individuals we can actually use that to positively impact our our cases to show the true impact it's had on individuals. I wonder how you feel about the that this is this whole thing was being filmed and now it's a two-part episode because surely there's the balance of you're not wanting to worry people about cases like this but also balancing the need for information to be out there.

I think what this program has shown is that the way in which Craig Krantz operated, he's not perhaps your stereotypical perpetrator of sexual violence. The way he operated, the way he befriended his victims, he doesn't look perhaps like one might envisage a sexual offender to do so. So I think from a public safety perspective it provides a real insight into the way in which perpetrators of sexual abuse operate and perhaps hopefully offers young women particularly vital information to keep themselves safe moving forward. DCI Helen Tebbitts, thank you so much for coming in to speak to me and the

nightclub predator episodes of 24 hours in police custody are available on channel 4 video on demand now. Thank you Helen. Thank you. And if you've been impacted by anything in this discussion you can find information and support on the BBC Action Line website. I'm going to bring in a couple of your messages now of when you've changed your life later in life. Jeannie says, I started as a journalist, then became a European public affairs consultant, then a wife and a mother. In my late 40s, I took on running a vineyard in Herefordshire, still doing it 20 years on and still wifing and mothering. Like I say, very inspiring. 84844 is the text number. On to my next guest. Cameron Marvel Oakes, known professionally as Cam, is an American country singer-songwriter. Her albums include

Heart Forward, Welcome to Cam Country, Untamed and The Other Side. Her most successful single Burning House received widespread acclaim and went triple platinum. She began her career as a songwriter and has written material for a range of artists including Sam Smith and Miley Cyrus and last year she received a Grammy Award for songwriting, production and backing vocals for Beyonce's Cowboy Carter album. Cam has a forthcoming album, All Things Light Up and a new single Alchemy which she's going to be performing for us a little later and joins me now in studio. Welcome! Yeah, oh my gosh. How's your morning been? Been great, caffeinated, ready to do this.

Excellent. Your new album All Things Light is out next week. You've written on your ex page, a labor of love and hope and fear and surrender. Maybe it's being a mother or getting older, or maybe it's the loss and grief I've had to make room for in my heart these last few years. I'm so proud to give you this. Tell us more. Yeah, it's been about four and a half years since the last album. And I had my first and only child two months, three months before the pandemic started. And that was, you know, it's a beautiful, wonderful,

heavy responsibility to have a child. And you're the one responsible for the world building and giving them all the things they need to know and the good and the bad. And it just was a heavy time, you know know to do that alone. Yeah, isolated. Yeah and it I went into the studio alone and started thinking about what I wanted to write for this record and instead of I'm a big sister you know of a younger sister who's only 18 months apart from me so we everything I would kind of do and got really good at as a

kid was like like accommodating and compromising and collaborating and this spending that time alone I think really forced my little sensitivities to pull from a spot that was really just mine and just you know how can I find what's coming through the like collective unconscious and meant to be channeled through me and how is that supposed to come out and that's a lot of talking about music but it it just feels like a deeper a deeper thing like you know my friend Roberta was like this album feels like you've swum out into the water and you get to that deeper spot and the water gets like a little bit colder mm-hmm like that's how this album

feels for me as a progression from all the rest of the work incredible you're going to perform your new single, Alchemy. Yeah. Tell us about it. What's it about? Yeah, it's... I actually was trying to write something that didn't have too heavy of a meaning because I was realizing the song was getting a bit heavy. Having said just what you said. Yeah, yeah. And it is a very lighthearted, fun thing. You'll hear it.

But I slipped in this reference to Buddhist death meditation because confronting death. Not heavy at all, then. Dust to flesh to bones to dust is like facing it, and how it still is wonderful that we're here, even though it's a limited time. And so then I say, we are golden. So just trying to wrap it all up in something that's acceptance.

Why country music? Where did that come from? My grandparents were really into it. They had a ranch growing up and it was like listening to old Patsy Cline records. And my grandpa would sort of like describe, he was the first person to teach me like a little bit of piano and he would sort of play old songs and it was like something about country music you like return home. Like when you hit the like the key phrase at the end of a about country music you like return home like when you hit the like

the key phrase at the end of a chorus you sort of like return home and it feels I don't know it feels like the most real version of music to me. Also those spine tingling harmonies. I know. Well done the band as well just name check. They work hard. You started singing in school in 14 languages you're in the choir 14. Yeah it was like a children's choir and we learned it was kind of amazing like Bulgarian and all kinds of stuff and it I think it set my ear into we're all feeling the same things but some people are just you know you're singing dissonant versus the the way it all gets said in like the different kind of musical languages that come through is just tickles me. And then you went on to college to study psychology, not music, but carried on singing.

Yeah, I didn't think music was like a real career. Everyone was like, you can't support yourself and do that. It's just realistic, you know? And so I was like, I better do something else. And after a while of psychology, it was like, my professor was like, picture yourself 80 years old and what would you regret missing out on, on psychology or music? And that really put it into perspective for me.

At that point, I switched gears. I was like, it's worth trying and I'm glad I did. Yes, and actually that's what we've been talking about all day, there's a no later time, just deal with it. At whatever time. And then it was your audition for the director of Sony Music Entertainment that changed everything. Yeah. Didn't he say that this is why I got into music?

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yes. I love how you know all this. I've become slightly upset. I mean, it's a good sign when you go into this super high rise tower and take multiple elevators into New York and the big boss has this massive office and he starts singing along halfway through. Yeah, so calms your nerves a little bit.

So what then took you into writing for other people? Because there are other incredible female artists who prolific at writing songs for other people. That's sort of a different skill, isn't it? You know, I think it seems like it is and maybe it is for other people. I don't really have like a different gear of like, let me try and put on another voice. I think I just have like, I feel it in my stomach if something feels like a concept or an idea or a phrase that I need to say. And because it's so much work.

How do you know it's not for you though? How do you know that that okay, that's a bit that's for Beyonce? It's mostly because I am in the situation where I've happened to be invited into something and then there we are sitting next to Sam, you know and or Miley and it's coming out in that moment and they it's such a it's so fortunate and lucky when you sit in the same room with anyone or even just now with us talking and you Overlap your realities and you both care about the same thing and you realize you're talking about the same thing and that kind of has to happen in those rooms and in those like creative endeavors so that you you actually do

land something because a lot of times it might not work out yeah and congratulations on the Grammy thanks Beyonce's cowboy Carter I mean what an album to get it for what What was that experience like? Incredible. Felt like divine timing because like I said I had just started getting into this new version of writing and I feel like I'm the most myself right now and what I'm writing and the way I'm putting it together and so for that it's like she did, she pushed a lot of boundaries you know obviously with genres and the way she put that album together and it felt I I think it's perfect, you know, that's what I want to hear and that's, it was so wonderful to have somebody do something that was challenging

and culturally important and be commercially recognized for it in a space that, you know, I traditionally work in. So it was very inspiring to keep going. And for her to say, Cam, you come work on this with me. Oh my God. I know my 12 year old self freaking out. But can I tell you something? Please. Like, I don't know if we're supposed to, I feel like as women, we never say this type of thing. But like when I did get the call, I was like, I got this.

Yeah. I know I got this. And I did. Excellent. There's something I read about you, famously wrote the song Diane, which is an antidote to Dolly Parton's Jolene. Who's Diane? Yeah, the woman who unknowingly in my version cheated with the guy. It's like my friend's mom actually, her, their parents split up, it was really ugly and she never got like an apology in real life. I think a lot of women don't and I was like, I'm a creative, I'm a world builder, I can do this. And so I wrote this song for her so that she would get the apology that she didn't

get in real life and yeah, it's, that's country music. You take a really sad thing and you make it kind of toe-tappy and it goes down easier. Well, it's all of life, isn't it? Yeah. As is this new song, Alchemy, and your new album. I've heard the first three tracks that Spotify have released or and I can't wait to hear the whole thing. It's been such a joy speaking to you. Thank you so much.

Wonderful speaking to you. Thanks for having me. I also was going to talk to you about it, but we've run out of time. But I just want to tell everybody, if you want to know more about Kam and how beautifully thoughtful she is, watch her TEDx talk and find it. Google it. And Cam will be performing at the Tabernacle in London tonight and the new album All Things Light Up is out next week. Thank you. That's it from me. Thanks to all of you for listening and getting in touch with all your stories. I'll be back tomorrow

for more Woman's Hour at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm David Runciman and from BBC Radio 4 this is Postwar. From the cradles of the grave they said. 80 years on we're telling the story of the 1945 election and the creation of postwar Britain. There must be a revolution in our way of living. This is the Britain that many of us grew up in and which still shapes an idea of who we think we are. Even Winston Churchill thrown it.

Alright, you may have won the war but you're going to win the peace. Post-war with me, David Runtsman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Can we have the Britain we desire?