Woman's Hour - Sparking a love of nature; the Keira Bell judgement; Evil women; US female voters

Episode Date: December 2, 2020

The Woman’s Hour Power List 2020: Our Planet is celebrating the women making a significant contribution to the environment. Today, we’re speaking to two women who strive to spark a lifelong love of nature in others. Beccy Speight is the CEO of the RSPB, the UK’s largest conservation charity and Miranda Lowe is a curator at the Natural History Museum in London.The High Court has ruled that children under 16 with gender dysphoria are ‘unlikely’ to be able to give informed consent to undergo treatment with puberty-blocking drugs. The case had been brought against Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust. Health Correspondent for BBC Newsnight Deborah Cohen joins Krupa to explain the judgment and its potential implications for clinical practice.In the recent US election an estimated 90% of black women voters supported President-elect Joe Biden. And while college-educated white women further cemented their shift to Democrat support, white women overall continued to vote for President Donald Trump. We speak to Professor of Political Science, Wendy Smooth from Ohio State University about what created this divide, the significance of the women’s vote and the overall pattern of women’s political choice.What makes an ‘evil woman’? From Eve and her original evil, to the true horrors of Myra Hindley, Professor Joanna Bourke’s new series of Gresham College lectures explore some of the women described as such – and how the bar for evil has changed over time.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Bhati with Wednesday's edition of the Women's Hour podcast. Today, we'll be hearing another two women from this year's Women's Hour Power List, one of whom, Miranda Lowe, is here with me in the studio. We are exchanging smiles as I speak. They'll be talking about their work in getting us and keeping us interested in nature and the environment. Let's admit this year, the outdoors has really been our saviour. Also on the show, the American election.

How significant were female voters in getting President-elect Joe Biden past that finishing line? And we're going to talk evil, to be precise, what makes an evil woman. We're always keen to hear from you on evil women or anything else. You'll find us over on Instagram and Twitter. And that handle is at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, there's always email or text. That number is 84888. Do get in touch. Now, the High Court yesterday ruled that children under 16 with gender dysphoria are unlikely to be able to give informed consent to undergo puberty blocking drugs. The case has been brought against the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, who run gender identity clinics,

by a young woman called Kira Bell and a parent just known as Mrs A. I spoke to health correspondent for BBC Newsnight Deb Cohen earlier about that judgment and its implications for clinical practice. I asked her first what the term gender dysphoria means. So gender dysphoria is essentially struggling with your gender identity and that is the gender you are either assigned at birth or your natal sex and it can be quite traumatic for a young person if they do not feel at one with their sex or gender. Understood and it's obviously really important to clarify what it means from a medical perspective and similarly puberty blockers? So puberty blockers are a drug that is called tryptorelin and when used in gender dysphoria they stop the development of the

secondary sexual characteristics so that is voice breaking in a male or hips widening breast development periods in a female. So the idea is that they pause this and the thought is that they help to alleviate the distress a young person has as their body develops or goes through puberty. Understood. And just to clarify, you say stop, but I imagine this is a gradual process. Yes, it doesn't turn off overnight, you know, but it stops the continuing development of. So one of the arguments is that in the gender dysphoria, the development of your body in the gender, in a particular gender, can be quite distressful. Okay. For those who haven't heard what the High Court had to say yesterday, talk us through that judgment. Yesterday, the court ruled on the ability of a child under 16 to give informed consent to start these puberty-blocking drugs, so tryptorelin in the case of the uk and as we've heard you know these are

drugs that are used to treat gender dysphoria and there's a few reasons why the court actually came to this view one of them is actually the purpose of the drugs so the tavistock clinic has long argued that puberty blockers give a young person time to think about their gender identity without the added distress of going through puberty so they don't develop breasts or the voice doesn't break which which a person that has gender dysphoria can may find quite distressing but the judges actually questioned whether it was quite that straightforward and they actually said there was a lack of clarity over the purpose of the treatment whether it actually really does give a young person time to think or whether it kind of holds the body in a kind of hormone neutral place that would potentially, and they didn't spell this out specifically, that would make went further at the court so the Tavistockers argued that the decision

to take puberty blockers was entirely separate from the next stage of transitioning so the theory is is you go on to puberty blockers you have time to think about your gender identity and you can come off them and then or you have puberty blockers and it leads into the next stage of transitioning, which might be the use of cross-sex hormones. So testosterone for girls and estrogen for boys. But actually, the court said the evidence seemed to suggest they weren't stages one and two. So you didn't take puberty blockers and then potentially come off them. What they said is all the available evidence showed that practically all children and young people who start puberty blockers will then progress on to cross-sex hormones. So the problem there for consent is you're not just gaining consent

for puberty blockers, this is time and space to think, you're actually gaining consent for the full pathway for a young person starting puberty blockers and then going on to cross sex hormones. And the court felt it was highly unlikely a child under 13 would be able to fully understand the implications of this on their bodies in the long term. And they said it was doubtful, and that's a child under 13. And they also said it was doubtful that a child aged 14 and 50 or 15 could understand and weigh the long term risks and consequences for the treatment pathway as well. What the judges actually said is there is no age appropriate way to explain to many of these children what losing their fertility

or full sexual function may mean to them in later years. Listening to you outline the details there, it's equally important to stress that this isn't about the rights or wrongs of puberty blockers, is it? No, it's not. It's what the court seemed to imply was there needed to be exploration and you know it's not a blanket ban it's just the the court will have to be involved and even over the age of 16 where you know there's normally a statutory presumption that they you know people have young people have the ability to consent to medical treatment they the long-term consequences of these particular clinical interventions are, in the court's words, innovative and experimental. And so even over the age of 16,

16, 17, the judges recognise that clinicians maybe need to get court authorisation before starting treatment. Deb, yesterday it was the huge immediate reaction to this ruling. Today, I imagine many people will be looking forward to the next steps in terms of possibly a legal challenge, but also from a medical perspective. First of all, are we now at a stage where the courts will play a much greater role in such decisions? Potentially, yes. The Tavistock are seeking permission to appeal the judgment. And we've still, we've got a big review that's ongoing at the moment, commissioned by NHS England, that's being led by Dr. Hilary Cass, who was former president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. So there there's the potential that obviously pending appeal but

the referrals have been stopped for puberty blockers for new referrals for puberty blockers seem to have been stopped as of immediate effect and the question is as well and and this is where there's a little bit of lack of clarity is is nhs england said last night that actually those who are under 16 who are on puberty blockers should be reviewed and if there is a decision to continue treatment, then the court will have to be involved. And if not, then other psychological support should be found and decisions and a timeline for that. Those clinical reviews will be set out by the 22nd of December. So just to be clear, new referrals will be paused? New referrals will be paused. That's what NHS England are saying.

Which could potentially leave children, critics would say, in limbo, wondering what their next steps are. Absolutely. I mean, what we heard in the court as well is that as of November 2019, the waiting time for the first assessment at GIDS that's the gender identity development service at the Tavistock is between 22 and 26 months so there's already really lengthy waiting lists and so this is thrown into further doubt and it's not clear what support young people will get either those who are coming off treatment if that isn't successful in appeal or all those that are currently who are currently waiting to be seen and obviously you know there'll probably be lots of people who are concerned about the support that they get or their child gets and for those children who are currently on puberty blockers, who are going to have their treatment paused and revised and reconsidered,

I mean, with puberty blockers, if you come off them, what happens? Does puberty kick in? I mean, what are the implications? Well, in theory, I mean, the Tavistockers argued that normal puberty resumes. I think the issue potentially there is it's not in time. There isn't a great body of evidence. So, I mean, we heard the judges say that basically all the available evidence suggests that young people once started on puberty blockers will then go on to cross-sex hormones. So it's a continuum from puberty blockers, suppressing your puberty, to taking the hormone from the opposite gender. So testosterone for girls, oestrogen for boys. So what then happens if you come off puberty blockers? I'm not clear there's a huge, great deal of evidence for that. We have had a statement from the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, which says the trust is disappointed by today's judgment.

And we understand that the outcome is likely to cause anxiety for patients and their families. Our first duty is to our patients, particularly those currently receiving hormone blocking treatment. And we duty is to our patients, particularly those currently receiving hormone-blocking treatment, and we are working with our partners, University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust,

to provide support for patients concerned about the impact on their care. The trust is seeking permission to appeal the judgment and in the meantime confirms its ongoing support for the review commissioned by NHS England being led by Dr Hilary Cass. So we are expecting this to be drawn out legally. Yeah and that's the message as well we've heard from the Tavistock that there will be an appeal and I think there'll be a lot of people or some a lot of charities supporting that appeal.

There's disappointment in trans groups or trans ally groups who are really disappointed with this ruling. Thanks to Deb Cohen, health correspondent for Newsnight, for her insights there. And we understand that there is often no better way to understand a story than by hearing from those directly impacted by events. So an appeal to our listeners whose children are going through this process at this moment and may be affected, please do get in touch if you are able and, of course, willing. Let's return to the Women's Hour Powerless 2020. If you don't know what it is or what it's about,

it is our recognition and of course our celebration of 30 inspiring women whose work is making a significant positive contribution to the environment and the sustainability of our planet. Plenty more on who is on that list, why we're doing this in the first place and of course our judging panel that's over on our website. And we have met some remarkable women over the past few weeks. Keep in mind, we had over 1,100 suggestions. I learned that this morning. Remarkable. Today, I'm introducing you to two women who work towards sparking our lifetime interest in the environment and nature. And it's a role that seems particularly important when you have warnings like one that you will hear today from the UN Secretary General, Antonia Guterres, saying that humanity is waging suicidal war on the natural

world. Becky Spite is the CEO of RSPB, which is the UK's largest conservation charity. And Miranda Lowe is a curator at the National History Museum in London. Welcome to you both. Hi. Good morning. Hello, thanks for having us. Pleasure. Miranda, let's start with you. We're going to talk about your brilliant work in the museum sector in a moment. But everyone has a route as to why they are where they are.

How does your spark in the museum sector begin? It began in childhood, actually. My parents came over from the Caribbean and they themselves are very interested in nature coming from the Caribbean islands. So for me growing up, it wasn't unusual to go on family trips to visit museums, parks and gardens. And we were always at Kew Gardens because my mum loves plants and growing plants and flowers. And my dad actually, in the garden at home, he would grow the vegetables. My mum would do the flowers. But also, what was very inspirational for me and had a mark on

in terms of my engagement with nature was that our family holidays consistently for about 10 to 12 years were visiting the Isle of Wight. And that was really magical for me because I thought, well, we were going somewhere really far. But also I've had cause to think about it a little bit more in more recent times of why, maybe because it's a small island, like my parents coming from smaller islands in the Caribbean.

And it's relatively warm. Relatively, that's a very generous term, yes. Warmer in terms of the UK. Not quite the Caribbean. Not quite the Caribbean. But again, you know, visiting and seeing the vast landscapes, Allen Bay and looking at the coloured sands there. I have childhood memories of that. And then I was also interested in photography,

photographing nature. So they bought me my first camera and we'd visit the new forest and look at the ponies and the horses there. So there was always that engagement there. And I'm a very curious person to learn about things and to appreciate how wonderful things are because I also have an interest in art as well.

So looking from that perspective. So it was all round inspiring for me and very encouraging. And we were lucky enough to have a house that had a back garden that we could play in as well. And I just remember, and my brothers are never going to forgive me for this, but my brothers sort of, you know, playing with stag beetles, because we had a huge elm tree that of course, in the 1970s, because of Dutch elm disease had to be cut down. And so, you know, we then lost the predominance of stag beetles in our garden. So that's where it all kind of started

for me. Such a vivid picture. Thank you for that. Becky, let's bring you on in here. Tell us about your own journey to working in nature. So not dissimilar, actually. I grew up in Dorset and my mum was particularly interested in the natural world, kind of knew all the common names for wildflowers and birds. And, you know, and so I learned a lot from being with her on kind of walks and things like that. And then my dad was into the outdoors. So all of our holidays were camping holidays and lots of fishing. We had, I can remember a fantastic holiday we had down on Portland Bill, just down at the right at the bottom of Dorset, where, you know, we just seemed to kind

of swim or fish every day. And just being out in that amazing environment just seemed to kind of swim or fish every day and just being out in that amazing environment and getting to kind of see everything that was going on was really really exciting and I think that's what kind of piqued my interest and and I just it's interesting I kind of assumed that everyone had that kind of childhood and I can remember sitting and talking to adult friends much later in adulthood and talking about you know having a tank with kind of you know pet newts in it and things that always escaped and and them kind of looking at me slightly open-mouthed and you realize you know that you I just feel now that I was so fortunate to have this childhood that really kind of connected me with that world and got me really interested in it and that I was allowed just to have a very free childhood as well and I think

that's something that a lot of kids miss out on today. Actually, it was a fantastic childhood and really sparked that interest. Yes. And it's lovely that you reflect on that childhood so fondly. Miranda, when I knew that I was speaking to you, I asked my little ones who had pre-lockdown, had made their first trip to the National History Museum and they're four and six. And I asked them, what do you remember about that visit because when you're that age you know the memory can be quickly adapted to something else and they didn't talk about the dinosaur which was quite surprising they talked about the moon display that wonderful

moon display that you have that magical moon display still marks me as well and so what I want to understand from you is when you're putting together these displays, these exhibitions, what runs through your mind when it comes to how am I going to keep that individual engaged when they leave those doors again? Well, we go through a very long process before we display anything. So it's a lot of consultation with the staff curators and scientists. And we also seek to bring external voices into the museum in terms of, you know, their perspective of how they look at our specimens, or any kind of objects that we are due to display. So and that's really important to then get the engagement from our external visitors, people visiting.

Because if you have that community engagement alongside a specialist, you know, that diversity of voices before you put on an exhibition, then you're going to get that diversity of audience coming to visit. Because let's face it, people want to see representations of themselves things that they're interested in and also it's not just about the museum um educating people you know we we are all within the museum part of society in this global world so we need to seek those voices externally to what what what they're passionate about what do they understand? You know, it's a conversation about it. And so that's the way to get people infused to care about the world that they're living, if they're seeing themselves, their own experiences on display.

And also for the museum to pique interest that there's a lot more to what you see on exhibition. So there's a lot more behind the scenes. You can go on Explore Tools to see the collections that I work with, but also to signpost people to various websites and how they can engage and work within their own community. Because, let's face it, in this current climate that we're in, we've all had calls to call upon nature. Nature has been, you know,

our solely something for us that we've re-engaged with again. Yes, and it's about keeping that engagement up. That's right. Becky, can you just explain the breadth of what the RSPB does? And I imagine it's much more than bird spotting, isn't it?

It is, although birds are absolutely central to our whole history and our expertise. So we do a lot of work in science. We have a fantastic team of scientists who are constantly kind of building the evidence for what's going on in the natural world and what we can do about it. And then we also we work in the UK. So we have about 200 nature reserves across the UK. So we're directly kind of caring for nature on the land we work a lot as well to try and influence government policy because that's so vital to kind of setting up the natural world to succeed and be restored going forward and we work globally as well so you may have seen just a few weeks ago there was a new marine protection area declared around Tristan da Cunha which is a UK overseas

territory in the South Atlantic fantastic area area, really, really important marine life. And we worked for over 20 years to try and kind of build up the momentum and the funding to get that marine protection area declared, working with the local community. So we work around the world as well. And birds are very much our lens. It's the way into the natural world. And I think that's the case for a lot of people. But of course, you know, what's happening to birds and the kind of declines we're seeing and the threats we're seeing to their survival absolutely apply to the whole natural world as well. So you have to think about both. And how can kids get started on this? Because I know that you have a very wide age membership, don't you? We do. So about a quarter of our membership, actually, we've got a membership of over a million people and about a quarter of those are young people.

And if you talk to a lot of people who are now maybe in their 60s, they remember the Young Ornithologists Club, which was the kind of youth movement of the RSPB maybe kind of 40 years ago, 40, 50 years ago. So it remains really important to us. And I think I think birds are just a really accessible way into the natural world. If you think about what so many people appreciated, you know, during during lockdown this year, it was just having the time and the space to notice the natural world. And it still is. We can't underestimate that. And birds are often the thing that you see. And it was certainly the case for me. I know here in Nottingham, you know, just seeing the birds in my garden really kind of helped me through. And I think

they're just, they're very accessible. You don't need lots of kits to start noticing the birds around you, to start learning about them. Do you know, Becky, I often lie on my swing in the garden, and I did that just last weekend, staring at a very grey sky watching birds. I don't often do that, but it is one of the most relaxing things I have managed to do in lockdown. Miranda, briefly back to you, the museum and heritage sector, let's admit it's largely a very white middle class area. I know that you've been working on trying to change things there. Tell us about your work. Yes. So I have been working on, in a sense, decolonising. What is it to decolonise natural history and the world that I work in? And so for me, in 2007, when we were all commemorating the abolition of the transatlantic slave trade,

the museum produced a really wonderful document called Slavery in the Natural World. And there were a couple of stories that resonated quite strongly with me and my cultural heritage. And so what I endeavoured to do and ultimately produced my own paper and body of work and a tour on it was recognising black, Asian and ethnic minorities that have been instrumental in the world of science and natural history and their narratives have either been hidden or just not been told. And so there are people like Grimane Quasi, which links to one of the 162 botanical ceiling panels in our Hintze Hall.

So there's a panel representing a plant called Quasi-Omara. And that plant is named after Grimane Quasi. And, you know, it's Carl Linnaeus who was a Swedish botanist that named that plant after Grimann and those kind of stories teasing those out and putting them alongside the scientific narratives are just really important so that you know we're representing all peoples and these narratives sit alongside side by side. And I think that that's another way of introducing diversity amongst the biodiversity of the stories that we tell at the museum. Miranda, I'm listening to you. Chaka has all these wonderful facts. I think she is a walking encyclopedia.

Thank you so much to Becky Spate and Miranda Lowe, both on our power list and plenty more about them over on the BBC Women's Hour website. Thank you. It is only the 2nd of December but we are already getting into the Christmas spirit here at Women's Hour. On Friday Jane will be finding out how to make the perfect mulled wine and other festive drinks. Join her with your own glass and we're also on the hunt for people called Joy ready for our Christmas Day programme program love this idea if you are called joy and have a story to tell behind your name then we want to hear from you please do email us via the women's hour website and of course if you've missed any of our programs you can always catch up just download the bbc sounds app a search for women's hour and you'll find all of our

episodes there shall we talk about the u US elections? They were a few weeks ago. That drama has not gone away. We now have the President-elect Joe Biden. He has fractured his foot whilst playing with his dog, but he is cracking on with that transition to power. And then you have President Trump. He's still busy with those legal challenges. He's not getting very far. Overnight, we've had the US Justice Department say they found no proof to back up those claims of fraud that he has been making. So we on Women's Hour, we are also going to talk about votes, specifically how women voted. Joining me now is Wendy Smooth, Associate Professor of Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies

and Political Science at Ohio State University. Thank you for your time, Wendy. Thank you for having me. Not at all. First of all, help us understand those numbers. Now, we understand women voted at higher rates than men. Is that simply down to the fact that this election saw a record voter turnout? Oh, no. This is a trend that we've seen in U.S. presidential politics over many cycles of high voter turnout among women. And not only that, but that we see women overwhelmingly supporting Democratic candidates.

And in particular, we've become quite in tune to the ways in which women of color in the U.S. tend to vote differently than their white women counterparts. And that all showed up in this election cycle. OK, so break down these numbers for me. How does the number of women who voted for Joe Biden compare to the number of women who voted for President Trump? So we see anywhere from, and our polls are all over the place, given the nature of exit polling this year, but we see anywhere from a nine to an 11 point gender gap among or between women and men in the US in terms of support for Biden over Donald Trump. Okay. And with regards to this actual win, I mean, how much does President-elect Joe Biden owe his win to his pool of female voters then?

Oh, exceptionally so. Definitely women were an incredible driving force for President-elect Biden. And in particular, I would say that when we really take a closer look at the numbers, we see African-American women and Latinas showing up in quite strikingly high numbers, African-American women offering about 90% of their voter support for President-elect Biden. And we heard in his acceptance speech a gesture to that level of support and recognition of that level of support. So definitely his win can totally be attributed to the turnout among women and the energy among women for support of the Biden-breaking moment of the first woman vice president in the U.S. to be elected. We celebrate 100 years of women's suffrage in the U.S. And this was such a crowning moment for our democracy. And I do want to talk about that in a moment.

But you touched upon it there, the subject of race and racial justice. It was a huge flashpoint during the build up to the election with the killing of George Floyd and the global protests that we saw afterwards. And you mentioned there the importance of black women voters. But in your opinion, how central were they in carrying Joe Biden past that finishing line? Wonderful question. You know, I would say it's certainly the global protest around the killing of George Floyd. But for African-American women in particular, we also had the police killing of Breonna Taylor in the state of Kentucky. And I started to write about, you know, the show up of the Breonna Taylor voters in this election cycle. So police brutality, police state based violence figured prominently in the calculations of African-American women voters for sure. And when we look at very closely at the Biden-Harris win, and we start to look at particular states that made a difference, we see these states with large numbers of African

Americans and Latinos leading the way in terms of the breakthrough for the Biden-Harris ticket. And a number of the states that we set nail biting in front of our televisions, waiting on returns throughout the week, were the states in which we see high numbers of people of color. So states, of course, like Pennsylvania and the historic win of Georgia for the Biden-Harris ticket

are both states where we see large numbers of people of color. And we also know based on the ground mobilizations that took place in those states that African-American women were at the forefront of leading the ground campaigns to mobilize voters for turnout and to build a long-term relationships that the Democratic Party needs in order to sustain those wins going forward. And Wendy, tied to the issue that we talked about there about George Floyd and Breonna Taylor is the issue of law and order, which was central to President Trump's message, wasn't it? How much did that inspire women to vote for him?

So certainly that in my own state, I live in the state of Ohio and Ohio went overwhelmingly for Trump. And that is one of the issues that seem to sway Ohio voters is this notion of protection, this notion of order. using the imagery of various protests across the summer to cast American cities as being completely out of control. But of course, as we know in campaign presentations, the footage that was captured was often not of the Black Lives Matter protesters or the George Floyd protesters, but were from random rioting incidents that were not in keeping with the lion's share of peaceful protests that happened across our spring and summer. Wendy Smooth, an absolute pleasure speaking to you. There is much more that I wanted to talk to you about, including Kamala Harris, of course, the first ever woman

and first woman of black and Indian heritage to serve in the vice president post. I'm sure we'll be hearing much more about her in the coming weeks and months. That's Wendy Smooth, Associate Professor of Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies and Political Science at Ohio State University. Thank you for your time. Let's talk about evil. There is no shortage of evil people over the history of time,

but what about evil women specifically? From Eve and her original evil and female villains in fairy tales to Mata Hari and Myra Hindley, just a few of the names that feature in a new lecture series on evil. They're by Joanna Burke, Professor of History at Burbeck

and Rhetoric Professor at Gresham College, who joins me now. Thank you by Joanna Burke, Professor of History at Birkbeck and Rhetoric Professor at Gresham College, who joins me now. Thank you for your time, Joanna. Why the desire to take a closer look at evil? I think evil is really one of the most interesting things that we can look at. You know, ever since Eve first plucked that apple from the tree of knowledge. I think we have been obsessed with the nature of evil women. And every generation, of course, kind of reinvents evil for itself. And it reflects really our own fears, our own anxieties, our own fantasies, in fact, as much as the actual women themselves. One of the things that I think is a really big historical as well, of course, philosophical question is the very basic one. Well, what is evil?

And many definitions, and it's highly, highly contested, define evil in terms of evil actions are what inflict losses to what's basic to a tolerable existence. But what really interested me when I started looking at this is that if you designate someone evil, that actually this is often a way of inflicting harm upon them. So in other words, I was really interested in evil women because this designation of that as an evil woman is used routinely throughout history to justify violence against women. I'm thinking here of the witch hunts. It's used to

justify subordination of women, cannot speak in church, for example, cannot get the vote. It's used to deny female sexuality, deny female agency. So it's a really interesting concept, I think, with which we can use to reflect on the role of women in society. And so just by listening to what you've had to say there, it's not necessarily about evil being about brutality. It's often about women going against the conventional grain of society. Yes, it is. And I think, you know, the difficulty, I only have six lectures to give. So I had to ignore, obviously, a universe of evils, including, of course, natural evils, such as pain, but also very human evils, such as the role of women in the Holocaust or genocide or wars, for example. But what I try to do is to think, well, get six categories of evil that kind of represent some of the broad ways that evil has been used in relation to femininity.

And as you say, I'm absolutely right. In most of these cases, these are examples of women being designated evil as a way of denying them their own powers. So, you know, as you mentioned, I look at the original evil, that is, you know, Eve, of course, the feminine origins, if you like, of evil. I then go and look at the evil queen in Snow White. So what does it tell us about witchcraft and fears of the powers of aging postmenopausal women and the valorization, if you like, of youth? I then turn to monstrous evil. And here, you know, this is an evil woman that very few people actually are aware of. Amelia Dyer, she's actually the most prolific mass murderer in British history. She killed around 400 babies. So, you know, is she insane? Is she an aggress in feminine form? Evil sexuality, you already mentioned. Mata Hari, of course, a really good example of female sexuality being seen as something that is evil,

deceitful, rapacious, a black widow spider, evil nurses. And I end, of course, with radical evil. Myra Hindley, a really good example about how do we understand women who rape and murder? So these are broad categories that I try to use as kind of meditations into the nature of evil. Your knowledge on evil is so profound. Here's a question for you. If women are labelled evil, what are men? That is a wonderful question, because the way the label evil adheres to the different genders is very, very different. I mean, you know, let's take Myra Hindley as an example here. You know, this is a great example of a really monstrous, radically

evil woman, a woman who's designated as radically evil. And yet, if you actually look at the story of her life and of what she does, you know, the very different interpretations of her actions, her evil actions with those of Ian Bradley, for example, you know, and this idea that somehow the monstrous woman is more monstrous than the man, the murderous violence generally is actually coded male, you know, if Cain slaughtered Abel. But of course, when a woman does this, it has a totally different meaning to when a man acts like in these ways. And are there any benefits, therefore, to understanding evil? I mean, does it help us avoid evil if we understand it better, or at least what it tends to suggest?

I think there is. I think that because, as I mentioned at the beginning, each generation redefines, reinvents evil, I think it enables us to tell different stories about ourselves, to investigate the nature of what it means to be human, as well as what it means to be female. One of the difficult decisions I made when deciding these topics was, do I include fictional women or do I only include real women? And I decided to do a mixture of both, precisely because the nature of an evil woman, thinking about an evil woman, enables us to think about what we fantasize, for example, or what we may want to imagine. It enables us to think about what we fantasize, for example, or what we may want to imagine. It enables us to work through different aspects of our nature, our goodness and our bad nature. An example of this is, I think, the evil queen in Snow White because it's really interesting when you look at the way that story has been told and retold over long centuries that it has a different meaning for different people at different periods. So for example the most common psychoanalytical way of interpreting Snow

White and the evil queen is that it allows children who are reading the stories or having it read to them to kind of work through their hatred for their mother, deflected of course to a stepmother while protecting the good mother. But of course, if you actually put that story in its context, Snow White and the Evil Queen, is actually a story not intended for children, but actually intended for adult readers. So actually what it is about, it's more about allowing mothers to fantasize about murdering their children. So in other words, looking at evil, trying to unpick these different aspects to it, allow us to reflect on our own societies and indeed society's past. Absolute pleasure speaking to you. Thank you for your insights there on the term evil. And that was Professor Joanna Burke. We've had lots of emails and

messages throughout the programme reacting to the stories that we have been covering. Let me just bring you a few of those comments. Flash Maggie has got in touch to say, the explanation of gender dysphoria just given was incorrect. Neither sex or gender is assigned at birth. Your sex is observed at birth. Gender is a social construct adopted later in life by a minority. It's an affectation. We've also heard from Linda with her personal experience who says,

this is to show what could happen if you wish that you were a different sex when young. I am 66, not a lesbian, happily married for 45 years. As a young child up to 14, I wish that I was a boy. I dressed up in my dad's clothes, not my mum. I preferred garages, cars, guns and aeroplanes over dolls, but I did have dolls, which I enjoyed. I dressed in khaki shorts. I preferred garages, cars, guns and aeroplanes over dolls but I did have dolls which I enjoyed. I dressed in khaki shorts, I played boys games. My night fantasies before sleep were of being a boy and having adventures. When puberty came I prayed that my breasts wouldn't grow but this gradually changed. I married and had a heterosexual relationship. I still do not feel at all feminine and to this day I wish that I were a man but this causes no psychological problem. I still do not feel at all feminine. And to this day, I wish that I were a man, but

this causes no psychological problem. I prefer trousers to dresses, but I'm not a lesbian and any sexual thoughts being heterosexual. Had someone said to me when 13 that I could suddenly change to a boy, I would have said yes, but would not have wanted any operations or drugs. I'm very happy as I am. Heterosexual, but not at all feminine. Linda, thank you so much for your honesty in that message to us. We've also had this message from someone who wishes to remain anonymous. assessment at UCLH next week to begin puberty pausing treatment. I have no idea what this means for them and the impact it will have. It feels like a legal process has instantly halted their medical treatment. Where does this leave us? Confused and scared. It's so hard to hear this issue discussed with such detachment when this is my child's life and future right now.

This case has also fanned the flames of transphobic hate which will have an effect on them. They're at school today. Will this cause yet more transphobic bullying there? Also, lots of reaction to our Powerlist guests,

those women who are helping people get into nature. We've had this message from one listener who writes, thoroughly enjoying this morning's feature

on BBC Women's Hour about how to engage with the natural world through museum visits, which gives us an education of ways to protect it. I love the description of the guest from the RSPB saying birds are the lens into our natural world. That message from Specimens Pod. We've also had this message from Gray, who writes the interview brilliantly highlighted how so many of us found comfort and joy in nature during the COVID crisis. However, how many of us have made changes to the way we live to reduce our carbon footprint? Will our grandchildren be able to enjoy and find solace in nature? Food for thought there from Gray. Equally, lots of reaction to Professor Joanna Burke ending our programme speaking about evil women.

This message from Jenny who writes, what was so evil about Eve? Certainly in the story, she was curious and didn't like being told to do things because I say so. But evil? She seemed to have had more gumption than that weedy Adam. This from an anonymous listener who writes, what makes women evil is the same thing that makes men evil, a society of evil ethics. And you won't accept this, but evil lurks in all people's psyches. There's some food for thought there. Tomorrow, we're going to take you back to 1969 and introduce you to Becky Cooper. She is a former Harvard student and has written a book which has taken 10 years of her life. And she's been researching the murder of the Harvard student Jane Britton. It took place 50 years ago, largely unresolved.

So we'll be speaking to Becky about why she committed so much of her life to researching what happened to this young lady. We also heard this morning from the Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, about the first 800,000 doses of the coronavirus vaccine will be available soon. Next week, in fact, well, that's the plan.

Tomorrow, we are talking to women experts in this field at the forefront of this important COVID research. Do join us then. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.