Woman's Hour - Spending review 2020; Maureen Lipman’s shoes; Özlem Cekic

Episode Date: November 23, 2020

Women have been worst hit in financial and economic terms by the pandemic so the spending review coming up this week is of particular interest this year. It’s when the chancellor sets out his big picture for the next three or four years in terms of what each government department will have to spend. This time round though Rishi Sunak will be laying out his plan for just one year because of the uncertainties facing the UK. Paul Johnson from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and Mary-Ann Stephenson from the Women’s Budget Group discuss the key areas to watch for which could impact women.My Life In Shoes. The actress Eve Pearce has written a poem about her main life events remembered through her footwear - from wellingtons to brogues and satin heels. The actress Maureen Lipman talks to Jane about their friendship, and her own favourite black suede courts which she wore to Buckingham Palace, plus the role that shoes play in helping her get into character.Özlem Cekic was one of the first women with a Muslim immigrant background to enter the Danish parliament. When she started receiving hate email from people who thought she should ‘go home’, she just deleted or ignored it. Then one day she decided to go and meet some of the senders. She was offered coffee and home-made cake at their houses, and talked with them for hours. So began a decade of trying to build bridges with people who hold extreme views. She tells Jane why she is convinced we should try to listen and understand them, and confront our own prejudices in the process. Özlem has written a book called Overcoming hate through dialogue.As part of our Power List coverage we’re talking to Marian Spain who’s in charge of Natural England. It launched The Nature Recovery Network this month. And Sarah Johnson who works in Lancashire, restoring peatland in her area. Peat is really important for absorbing carbon dioxide and helps combat climate change.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast, Monday the 23rd of November 2020. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Dame Maureen Lipman joins us this morning. So many people like Dame Maureen have reacted positively to our series about My Life in Shoes. So we're going to get some of her stories and a

lovely poem by one of her acting friends on the programme this morning. We'll talk too to the Danish MP, Uslem Cekic, who, a very brave woman, very unusual one really, she confronted the people who sent her vile hate mail. She went round to their houses, she had coffee with them, she tried to find out why they thought the way they did. She's really interesting. And you can hear her story today. And we'll have more from the Woman's Hour 2020 Our Planet Power List. Today, you'll talk. No, I won't. You won't talk. You'll listen to me talking to Marion Spain. I should write this really, shouldn't I? I should script it. Marion Spain, who works for Natural England. She's on the Woman's Hour Power list. She'll talk about her life and we'll hear from somebody on the front line, Sarah Johnson, who works in the peat bogs for Lancashire Wildlife

Trust. A very important peat bogs and we'll find out why later on. Now let's talk about the Chancellor Rishi Sunak, who later this week on Wednesday is going to be laying out his financial plans for just one year because of all the uncertainties surrounding coronavirus and its impact on the UK. Normally at this time of year we'd get a plan for a much longer period of time from the Chancellor of the Exchequer but it's just not possible this year. So let's try to have a conversation about what might lie ahead for women. Paul Johnson is from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, and Marianne Stevenson is a representative of the Women's Budget Group. Paul Johnson,

first of all, all the chatter is around a pay freeze for people in the public sector. Overwhelmingly, people in that part of our working life are female what do you think is going to happen well they've clearly been uh flying that kite um whether they will go down the road of actually having a freeze i don't know yeah that's that's a point worth making isn't it sometimes they do kites are flown and um nothing actually happens i mean quite often actually the treasury or the government quite often, actually, the Treasury or the government will put a suggestion into the public domain and see how it goes down before making a final decision. I mean, this is clearly something they're going to be thinking about for two reasons.

First, public sector pay is a lot of money. It's £200 billion, which is knocking on for a quarter of all public spending. So if you really want to control public spending you're clearly going to look there and secondly of course over this year the public sector has in some senses at least been shielded from the worst effects of the virus in that very few people in the public sector will have lost their jobs and pay has risen a lot more this year in the public than the private sector but over over the last decade, the public sector has done even worse than the private sector in terms of pay increases. And you're absolutely right. It is very much a female dominated sector. Something like three quarters of teachers, for example, nowadays are women. And clearly women make up a majority in the health service and other parts of the public sector.

Yes, I mean, they dominate the health service. I think over 70% of NHS employees are female. That's a huge chunk of that workforce. And of course, if you talk about schools, if you're a head teacher, you may well be earning what many people would perceive to be a really good salary. But if you're somebody who's supervising in the dinner hall, well, that's a very different kettle of fish, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, as in any part of the economy, you've got some better paid and some less well paid people in the public sector. I mean, actually, on average, public sector employees earn quite a lot more than those in the private sector. But that's because such a large fraction of them are graduates. I mean, all teachers, nurses, doctors, and so on. But once you can take account of that, then the differences tend to fade away. Okay, let's bring in Marianne Stevenson from the Women's Budget Group.

Paul's right, sometimes kites are flown, and nothing actually happens. This kite has been flown. There's been a conversation over the last couple of days about the possibility of a pay freeze in the public sector. How has it gone down, Marianne? Well, certainly from the women that we've been speaking to incredibly badly. I mean, you think about people who, in many cases, have been on the front line, working throughout the crisis. You know, the teachers carrying on teaching, managing remote education and teaching children of key workers when schools were closed and now with schools back in situations where they're often, you know, quite high risk of exposure, particularly in secondary school to coronavirus. So, you know, on the one hand, it seems grossly unfair to those

workers. And the second point, it's really bad economics. I mean, if you're taking money from reducing the payoff or making people worried about their future pay in the public sector, that's going to reduce their spending. And that is going to have an impact on people's jobs in the private sector. You know, if we're thinking about the people working in hospitality, in high street retail, and so on, they are dependent on people spending money on goods and services. And if public sector workers have their pay frozen, they will have less money to spend, which means that that will have a knocking impact on workers in the private sector as well. So I think creating this kind of artificial division between public sector and

private sector workers, particularly at a point when we all really need to pull together to get through what's going to be a really difficult winter for very many people is is not a good idea well let's put that to paul marianne's point then that if you don't increase the pay of people in the public sector they don't have money to spend in the private sector well and and true um obviously also of one of the other big choices the Chancellor will have to make quite soon, which is whether to increase or whether to keep the increase in universal credit, the benefit that many millions of people get, which was raised by £20 a week at the end of the year. But a really big issue, both for the individual's concern, that's a very big fraction of their income. And clearly, this is a group of people who spend all of their income. So at this point in the economic cycle, when the economy is really struggling, getting money into people's pockets is quite important. Though that said, for most people who have remained in work over this period because there actually hasn't been much opportunity to spend during lockdown.

There's been a very big increase in savings, possibly the biggest increase in savings ever, as people just haven't been able to spend their money. So it may actually, this time round, slightly oddly, be in terms of getting money into the private sector a bit less important because there's actually a glut of money in some people's. Well i mean and of course we should some some people and they are only a minority have have benefited hugely from the last couple of months of people involved in ppe for example have put a put away a fair whack i'm quite sure i think marianne you might take issue with

the idea that lots of people have been able to save. I guess some people fortunately have. Well, I think there's a real division that those people, as Paul said, you know, people who are in professional jobs that you can do from home, who've been able to carry on working, savings have gone up. But at the same time, for other groups of people, levels of debt have gone up massively. So we've seen a significant increase in personal debt. We've got 6 million households on universal credit or tax credits, 12 million people saying they're struggling with debt and unpaid bills, nearly half of parents warning that they'd be unable to pay for an unexpected expense. And the longer the restrictions go on, the worse things get. So the potential for that increase in universal credit to be taken away, that 20 quid, what do you think about that? Well, I mean, I think that's going to be devastating. I mean, we have some of the lowest

levels of, no. But at the moment, the increase is only running to the end of the financial year. So if the government doesn't announce something, then it will happen. It will be taken away. It's also important to remember that there's larger numbers of people who didn't benefit from that uplift. So people who are on what's called legacy benefits, things like benefits for disabled people who were claiming benefits before universal credit came in. Those benefits haven't been increased. So those people have gone without that £20 increase for the whole of the pandemic, and they're still suffering. But for those who have seen what is a relatively modest increase, taking that money away at a time when we're going to be seeing rising unemployment,

potentially increases in the cost of living as a result of Brexit, is going to push very, very many families, particularly lone parent families, the majority of whom are headed by women, further into debt. I know you favour something you describe as a care-led recovery, Mary-Anne. Just very briefly outline what that constitutes. Well, what we're saying is that the government actually needs to make significant investments in order to boost the economy. And a big part of that should be an investment in the care sector. So we looked at investment in care compared to investment in construction, which is what the government favours, you know, the sort of build, build, build rhetoric that we had over the summer.

The same amount of money invested in care and construction would create 2.7 times as many jobs in care as that money invested in construction. More jobs for men and very many more jobs for women. But it would also deal with the crisis that we're facing in care. You know, both social care and childcare were massively overstretched before the pandemic. And they are now really at breaking point, with both sectors warning that there might be closures in the months to come, which will have a devastating impact, both on those receiving care, but also on those who would who would otherwise have to give up paid work in order to provide the care that is no longer being got you available let me

just put that notion to paul johnson from the institute for fiscal studies a care-led recovery rather than a construction-led recovery what do you think paul well i think it's an important addition certainly to the idea that for example example, levelling up or, for example, recovery can be led only by investment in infrastructure. We do get this rhetoric a lot that if you want to level up the north, if you want to have a green recovery or whatever, you've got to spend tens of billions on massive infrastructure projects. We actually know that a whole host of things really matter for that i mean education most obviously and investment in teachers and further education and things like that even if you're only really focused on the economic outcomes is incredibly important doesn't tend to get quite the same level of focus as the sort of building roads and railways tends to get. And obviously, the communities in which people live also matter. So

I think this sharp distinction that is often drawn between, as it were, capital spending good and spending on sort of wages or support bad in an economic sense, I think that is a false distinction, certainly. Can we have a brief word from you both on the idea of the international aid budget being cut, something we discussed on the programme on Friday? Marianne, do you think we should even contemplate doing that at the moment? No. I mean, this is a global pandemic.

It affects people around the world. I think it's unconscionable the idea that we would cut spending on overseas aid at a point when very many countries are suffering a great deal more than we do. But also it's short-sighted because, you know, we live in a global economy and when we're dealing with something like a pandemic, it is a global problem. If you cut the spending that could be used to help tackle coronavirus in other countries, it will carry on circulating, which means that all our efforts in this country will be repeatedly undermined as people travel around the world. Paul, can you make the economic case for cutting our international aid budget?

Well, in the end, of course, it's a sort of moral and political decision. I mean, it is worth saying that outside of Denmark, Sweden and Norway, we do spend more of our national income on international aid than any other country, any other advanced country in the world. So I think if you were a chancellor or prime minister looking at that and looking at the scale of our deficit, you might think that now might be a time to save that. But equally, we're going to be spending a lot less anyway, because our national income has gone down and it adjusts with our national income because it's supposed to be 0.7 percent. And clearly, this is a moment when the poorer parts of the world need it desperately. But, you know, we are up to now one of the very, very few countries who have actually kept our international obligations to get it to 0.7% of national income. And of course, many people would say that's something we should be rightly proud of. But I guess that that's a debate. And just remind us very briefly, Paul, of the amount of debt we are currently in as a nation. How much? How much is it?

Well, we'll be borrowing north of 350 billion this year, which is a fraction of national income is more than we borrowed in any year ever outside of the First and Second World Wars. And the total debt has gone over well over 2 trillion, which is 100 percent of national income this year. So it's a very large amount. But it's worth saying the thing that really matters is what our deficit will be in two or three years time. If the economy were to just bounce back to where it was and we had some elevated debt, then we could deal with that. But the problem is the economy almost certainly isn't going to bounce back to where it was, and we're going to need more spending to cover health and education and so on. So our deficit, the amount we borrow each year, will be elevated to an extent

that the debt will probably be on an ever-rising path unless the government does something to deal with it which probably at some point not yet but at some point probably means some tax rises right okay but as anybody who heard the 10 o'clock news will testify good vaccine news again this morning from the oxford vaccine trials so look um let's try to be positive thank you both very much indeed for talking to us this morning paul john from the Institute for Fiscal Studies. And you also got the thoughts of Marianne Stevenson from the Women's Budget Group. Now, this is something I really hope you enjoy listening to because it's a story I didn't know about Uslem Cekic,

one of the first women with a Muslim immigrant background to enter the Danish parliament. And when she became an MP in Denmark, she got hate email from people who thought she should, quotes, go home. And for a while, she deleted it, tried to ignore it. Then one day, she decided she'd had enough and she wanted to go and meet some of the people who decided to email her. She has now left politics, but has written about her story in a book called Overcoming Hate Through Dialogue, confronting prejudice, racism and bigotry with dialogue and coffee. The first email was when I was in the parliament and I gave my first speech. And after that, I sit in my seat and I could see that it was two emails from Citizen.

And I think the first it was two emails from Citizen. And I think the first one was something about that I was a terrorist doing in the parliament, and I just deleted them because I thought that the senders and I had nothing in common. They didn't understand me, and I didn't understand them. So it doesn't affect me. I just delete them you just delete them and you say it doesn't affect you but it's horrifying and it should never have happened what do you think is in these people's heads when they send emails like that oh it's many things because the last 11, 12 years I visit these people and talk

with them why they are sending those hate mails. And some of them are very afraid about what's happening with the Islamic terror. They can't find the terrorist email, but they can find me on Facebook. And I'm not saying that their behavior is acceptable. Some of them don't know anyone with Muslim ethnic background. And the internet has a very good side, but the bad side is that people, it's so easy for them to generalize all the Muslims as a bad people. In the beginning, I just deleted them. But one day, one of my colleagues said that I should save the emails because when something happens to you, it'll give the police a lead, she said. So I noticed that she said when something

happens and not if. And that was the reason I saved all the hate mails. But in 2010, a Nazi began to arrest me. And it was a man who had attacked Muslim women on the street. And one day, I was at the zoo with my children. And the phone kept ringing. And it was the Nazi. And I had the impression that he was close. So we headed home. And when we got back, my son asked, why does he hate you so much, mom, when he doesn't even know you? And I answered that some people are just a bit. And at the time, I actually thought that was the pretty clever answer. So I talked with one of my friends about this, and he said, you know, you should visit them. And I said, visit them? They will kill me.

And he said, no, they will never kill a member of the Danish parliament. And if they killed you, you will become a martyr. So it's pure win-win situation for you. Yes. So your status as an elected politician was a sort of protection. But nevertheless, some people, well, many of us would regard what you did as very brave. What was it like when you first confronted a couple of people who'd shown you such hatred? Just take us back to that meeting yeah you know it was i visit ingolf he was the first i visit and and i decided to call him just

once so i could say at least i had tried and in my head i want to make him good again. So my purpose to visit him was not like what my friend said to me, that I should confirm my own racism, because I don't think that I was racist, that I demonize. But I think if I visit him and he could see a Muslim who's supporting democracy and paid tax, maybe he could be good again. So, but to my surprise and shock, he answered the phone. So I blurted out and I talked so quickly and I said, hello, my name is Özlem. You have sent me so many hate mails. You don't know me. I don't know you. I was wondering if I could come around and we can drink a coffee together. And there was silence on the line. And then he said, I have to ask my wife. And I think, what? The racist has a wife.

And it was a shock. It was the first shock. But because it humanized him, it made you realize that this man who'd been so vile to you was a human just like the rest of us. Just like my father. You know, my father can be so, sometimes can speak so tough, but every time we ask him something, he always asks my mom. Right. But can I ask, did you change his views? he always asked my mom.

Can I ask, did you change his views? But that is not the point of dialogue. Dialogue is not about changing people's opinions. It's about learning to live with the fact that we can have conflicting views. We can become aware of our own prejudices, truth conversation. So our prejudices can't control us the same accent. And it was not only Ingolf who has prejudices because my experience after this first meeting was

I have the same prejudices because I never forget when he opened his front door and reach out to shake my hand. I feel so disappointed because he looked nothing like I imagined. I expected a horrible person in a teacher house. It was not. His house smelled of coffee, which he served from a coffee set identical to the one my parents used. So when, and I was, I ended up staying with him in two and a half hours. And we had so much in common. And that was the most interesting thing, because even our prejudices were alike.

For example, Ingolf told that when he waited for the bus and the bus stopped 10 meters away from him, he was sure that the driver was a racist. some experience where I wear a headscarf and someone on the street splattered at me. And in this time, I really hate Danes. And when I wait for the bus and the driver stopped 10 meters away from me, I was sure that the driver was a racist. So we talk about this thing with Ingolf. And it was first time I could see that I have so many prejudices too. Yeah, but of course, you, I don't suppose, well, perhaps you can tell me, you didn't send hate-filled letters or emails, did you? No, but people can dehumanize the others in different ways.

It's not that only that people send hate mails. I think we all have prejudices. We all dehumanize the others. But we are not so focused on our own faults, but we focus too much about how the others can make things different. You can imagine how is it with Brexit too in the UK. A lot of people don't talk with each other. And it's not only in the political level, it's in the family level too. But we don't want to talk about it because in our own hand, we are the good guys and the other are the bad guys.

You're right. I mean, this is all very uncomfortable stuff, isn't it? Most of us, unlike you, don't really want to confront this. I know you have now left politics. What are you doing now? How are you working? Now, I'm not part of any political parties. In Denmark, I have founded an organization called Bridge Builders. We have recently trained 600 Danish schoolchildren who come from very different backgrounds in how to talk to people they disagree with.

This is an important lesson for all of us because we all demonize. But is there anyone, Özlem, that you will not talk to? If you ask me that for three years, five years ago, I will say people who is using violence, I can't talk with them. Because when you use violence, the conversation broke. It is the opposite of dialogue. But after I visit Israel and talk with peace activists from both sides, from Palestinian people and from the Jewish people. And I talked with the man, Michael Melscher. He leads the religious peace process. And I said to him, I will never talk with the people who are using violence.

And he said, OK, but how will you stop the violence if you don't talk with them? He said, of course, we are supporting democracy. So when you use violence, you have to be punished of that. You can come in prison, but it doesn't mean that you will stop to talk with them, because that is the only way you can prevent that it will happen again. So I'm not saying that conversation is easy. It is the most difficult thing in a democracy. But it is necessary because all peace process, no matter it's in Syria or with your neighbor,

it starts with that two people sit down and talk together. That's the first woman with a Muslim immigrant background to become a Danish member of parliament, Uslem Cekic. And if you want to find out more about her book called Confronting Prejudice, Racism and Bigotry with Dialogue and Coffee, it might help you to know how to spell her name. And it's O-Z-L-E-M-C-E-K-I-C. If you're interested in that line of work, I do recommend that you have a look at her book. Now, you may or may not have been indulging or engaging in more quarrels and bickering with your life partner, if you have one, over the last couple of months during lockdown. Have you noticed that would you be

willing to take part possibly using a different name in a discussion on this subject tomorrow on the program have you noticed bickering increasing in your household perhaps all sorts of bickering over the last couple of months it hasn't been easy we know for anybody if you want to get involved in that you can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour or just share some of your experiences and I can feed them into the conversation tomorrow. And again, I really don't have to use your name on that subject tomorrow. Now to one of the women suggested for our Power List 2020, Marion Spain, who's in charge of Natural England. And we'll get the life experience, too, of a woman called Sarah Johnson, who works in charge of Natural England and we'll get the life experience too of a woman called Sarah Johnson who works in Lancashire she is restoring peatland in her role for the Lancashire Wildlife

Trust sounds fascinating we'll talk to Sarah in a moment first of all Marion good morning to you Marion good morning Jane very briefly and I'm sure lots of people already know what is Natural England we're the government conservation body so our job is partly to advise government on conservation matters but we also deliver government policy on the ground we make conservation happen on the ground with people like sarah okay well we'll talk about sarah and talk to her in a moment the nature recovery network is something you've launched recently. What's that? It's about putting nature back.

For most of my working life, which is heading on for 30 years now in conservation, we focused on protecting nature and stopping damage. What we're doing now is making nature better. So we're building on our nature reserves. We're making sure that nature is everywhere. And I think listening to a piece earlier on your program about the green recovery about covid one of the things that covid told us is how much we value nature close to home and that's a big part of the nature recovery network nature is no longer just going to be in nature reserves it's going to be everywhere all

around us because if it isn't what does that mean i think three things will go wrong our health will suffer there's lots and lots of evidence now even before the coronavirus lockdown we knew that having contact with nature being able to go out into green spaces was good for our health and well-being but we also know and covid has shown this very hard that not everybody has that our poorest communities our bane communities are the least likely to be able to access nature so we need nature for our health but we also need nature for the health of our planet restoring nature is going to be one of the major ways we're going to tackle climate change flooding pollution and so on but our

listeners will be saying we wouldn't need all this. We wouldn't need a recovery plan if we hadn't meddled with the natural landscape in the first place, destroying it, decimating it. Things like HS2. What about that? I wouldn't disagree with your listeners who are saying that. They're imagining these thoughts, but carry on. We have lost a lot of nature over the last 50 years or so. We've lost nature through development. we've lost nature through development we've lost nature through pollution we've lost nature through some of the changes in farming some of the intensification in farming has not always been good for nature but that's what we're now

recognizing we're recognizing that it's no longer good enough just to have nature and nature reserves we need to change the way we look after a whole environment and when we say nature we don't just mean wildlife i think sometimes when people hear people like me say that they think we're talking about rare species special sites that's not all that this is this is about those things we value day to day like trees in our streets and green spaces in our playgrounds and so on no they are absolutely vital we do do have a statement from HS2 Limited. Alongside construction of the new railway, we are also planting 7 million new trees and shrubs across 33 square kilometres of new woodland and wildlife habitat.

That, they say, is an increase of around 30% compared to what's there now. That's the statement from HS2 Limited. Let's talk to Sarahah johnson uh sarah good morning to you good morning hello now you used to work i know as a journalist you got fed up with all that and who can blame you and now you're doing something really important uh involving peatlands tell us first of all what you do what's your daily working life like okay um yeah i did make that that move um from journalism to conservation a number of years ago. And today I'm working, I'm project managing the Lancashire Peatland Initiative for Lancashire Wildlife Trust.

And basically what that means is basically flying the flag for all peatlands within our region. I mean, peatlands are amazing, wet and boggy landscapes when they're healthy. And they're amazing habitats for completely specialist plants and animals. And also, you know, when it comes to climate change, peatlands are vital. So what we're trying to do is protect the fragments that are remaining and trying to restore areas as well around to try and make sure we secure the services that they provide us into the future as well. Okay, now peat bogs, peatlands store carbon, right? That's right. When they're healthy and wet, peatlands store and absorb vast amounts of carbon, meaning they're a vital natural solution for climate change. Peatlands can store twice as much carbon as all the world's forests.

So they're amazing when they're in a healthy, wet condition. Sorry to interrupt, but presumably not every country in the world has them. Peatlands can be found all over the world, from the northwest of England, where I live and work right through to the tropics but the fact is that vast areas of peatlands have been drained and damaged and in those states when they're drained and damaged and drying out they go from a massive store of carbon to a massive emitter of carbon which means that really doing all we can to protect and restore them is vital really for the future of our planet as well as the wildlife that

that needs them. Why would they be drained and damaged so they can be built on? But for various reasons and for example one of the sites that we are restoring on the edge of Manchester it's about 30 miles from the centre of Manchester, is a former commercial peat extraction site. That site was extracted for peat compost that we buy in our garden centres. And when I first saw that site about when I was still a student in Salford, it was a completely barren, black landscape, devoid of all wildlife. And it was emitting massive amounts of carbon. And over the last few years, Lancashire Wildlife Trust have purchased that site.

We're doing all we can to re-wet that site and bring it back to its former glory. It's a long journey because peat bogs, they form really slowly. It takes about one year to form one millimetre of peat. But of course, when you're extracting it for peat compost, it disappears at a much faster rate. So for any of our gardening listeners, they shouldn't buy compost with peat in it? Absolutely not. I wouldn't be doing my job service if I said yes to that. So really,

I think there's lots of things we can do to try and protect our peatland landscapes. And as part of the work that I do with my colleagues and with our fantastic volunteers, we're trying to restore these areas. But if the people listening want to do one thing to help and protect our peatlands and the fantastic services they provide for us and wildlife, it would be to stop buying peat compost when you go to garden centers ask for the peat free compost if you can't see it ask for it and also think about the plants you're buying are they potted in peat compost the the grass turf that you're buying where is that being grown and ask those questions because consumers have a massive power to make

change just a really quick word i find fascinating. Which creatures love peat and peatlands? Oh, well, one of my favourites has to be the sundew. I don't know if you've heard about the sundew. It's a delicate and beautiful plant, but it's deadly to insects. It's a carnivorous plant that produces sticky, sweet-smelling fluid from little hairs and their leaves. They look like droplets or glistening in the sun, but actually they trap and digest insects to supplement their diet because peatlands are very nutrient poor. So the plants and animals that live there have to adapt to those amazing conditions. So yeah, they're beautiful, but deadly for insects. Right. Great to talk to you. You are a woman who radiates enjoyment of her work. So great to talk to you. Thank you, Sarah.

Thank you. Sarah. Thank you. Sarah Johnson works for the Lancashire Wildlife Trust. And you also heard from Marion Spain, who is the woman in charge of Natural England. I think we all got the message there about the right compost, didn't we? Now, the other day I was trawling through the Woman's Hour email inbox, which sometimes I have to say is scandalously full of people saying, come back, Jenny, and Jane, just shut up. But on this occasion, I happen to see a lovely email from no lesser person than our next guest, Dame Maureen Lipman. Good morning to you. How are you? Good morning, Jane. I'm very well. And you?

Yeah, not too bad at all. Thank you. And I'm very glad of the fact, I should say, we shouldn't take it for granted at the moment should we um let's talk about shoes because you were responding to an item we had about shoes we're doing this whole series of conversations about my life in shoes what grabbed you um well I just remembered a poem written by a friend of mine the actress Eve Pierce who became a poet in her 70s. And it's called My Life in Shoes. And I just thought, well, this is perfect for the articles that you're doing on the program, because we have a strange relationship with shoes as women. Oh, we do. I remember, yeah, I mean, I think Jack, my late husband, had a brown pair and a black pair.

And that was it. And he polished them, you know, with love. And yet we have much more of a sort of symbiotic relationship with us, you know, about the investiture that I will go to if there is one in the new year for the Queen's Honours yeah I wake up in the night and I think but my feet what have I got what am I going to wear on my feet and I start I just say it's quite a nice problem to have isn't it compared to most at the moment yeah sorry about that it really it really is a bit elitist to say that but you know I think we we do you know, we do have this thing.

We look at the shoes. I mean, remember Sex and the City and remember the thing of shoes actually sort of tracking your life. You remember different shoes that have meant things to you. And how people used to dance so much when I was growing up. And how the heck did they do it all night? No one knows. I certainly don't. I want to know, before we hear Eve's poem, can we just find out a little bit more about her? Oh, yes, yes. Eve is now a resident in the Actors Retirement Home and she's 91. And,

you know, I can't go and see her. She became a dear friend when we both appeared in my daughter Amy's place, Sitting Pretty. We opened in Southampton on the night of 9-11. So you can imagine how good it was playing a comedy that night. Yeah. And we became sort of family to one another. She lived in North London and her family and my family became entwined. And I was just sort of amazed by this woman's fund of stories because she was born to really, really poor background in Aberdeen. Her mother was the waitress in the Scottish cafe in the south of France. And she traveled back to Scotland when Eve was about to be born so that so that Eve would be a quine would be a Scottish child and and then she died when Eve was seven

so it's been a really not rags to riches but rags uh to comfort and out of comfort and into comfort a fascinating life and she took up poetry at the age of 70, as well as dancing with the company of elders. And she's really a very inspiring mate to have. Yes, I mean, it is wonderful to have a friend who's just, well, a different generation with different stories to tell. It's vital, that sort of link, isn't it? It's vital. And, you know, I just remember seeing her when I was a kid in Hull.

I mean, I'm not that much younger than her, but seeing her on the television all the time and sort of thinking, I think I know that woman. Well, yes. And now you do, which is wonderful. Well, if life were perfect, at this point we would play Eve's poem recorded by her. I understand we have a few technical difficulties at the moment I know it's awful so I promise you at some point this week we will play that poem I've got it in front of me

but I don't want to because I can't do justice to it Can I read it? I'm not good but I could try I am told that we've now got it let's just join hands across the ocean and see if we can hear it now. On we go.

Here is Eve. My life in shoes. Two years old, bare-toed sandals in Mediterranean sun. At four, Wellington boots plough through Scottish snow. Seven brings morning black patent for mummy. New brogues travel to London at twelve.

High-heeled straw sandals herald maturity. Navy blue marriage Suede promise Too much Principal boy Sat in heels with fishnets Low heels For pregnancy

Three times Happiness Despair A seesaw So many shoes old now fear falling none slips

low with velcro ball I'm so glad we were able to hear that that is fantastic I'm so glad because it's such a wonderful voice, mellifluous voice that she has as well. And, you know, that's how you read poetry. Every word counts. Yes, you read it with understanding and conviction. And she gave us both a lesson there. I don't suppose you need one really, but I certainly I could not have read it with such conviction. Thank you very much indeed. We were just checking in Maureen with almost everybody

who appears on the programme. Just a really genuine open question. How have the last couple of months been for you? Well, once again, I'm going to be elitist, Jane, because I'm still working on the street. Yes, which must be such a blessing at this time. It's pretty good to have a job. I mean, I'm pretty good in lockdown. I can do absolutely nothing all day and be quite pleasantly surprised by how happy I am. But it's hard. It's so hard not to see your loved ones.

Yeah, it is. It's really hard. But, you know, one has to just count your blessings, get on with it and understand that we're doing it for the right reasons. We have to, you know, we can't be Trumpist. We have to get on top of this virus. And if it means that we're in a war situation, then we have to accept the rules of war. That was Dame Maureen Lipman on the programme today. And I'm really glad she brought that poem by her friend Eve to our attention

because that was lovely and beautifully read by Eve as well. I hope she got to hear it. I hope you did, Eve. I hope you're listening now. And it is interesting that people have really reacted positively to that series of conversations about shoes. I've got some more emails here, actually. This is from Anne, who was listening on Friday

to the wonderful story about Christina in now living in France who just had a story about those little red shoes that she wanted but actually couldn't have and Anne said I found myself driving with tears running down my cheeks it was so wonderful and heartfelt how ordinary and yet how extraordinary her account was a one that we can all share and empathise with. To realise she acquainted the ideal of those red shoes to her mother and all that she meant to her really moved me. Yes, thank you for that. And more thoughts on shoes from Jennifer. My granny said, if you want to know somebody, look at their shoes.

I found this advice very useful, especially when going for interviews. No good going in high heels for a job which involves moving and handling. Mind you, I should have worn heels when in desperation I applied for the post of a grave digger. At five foot four, I came out of the interview and a six foot five inch man was waiting to go in. I got the interview because I was female and because I think the boss was intrigued by a young woman applying for the job. But, Jennifer, you don't tell us whether you got the job as a gravedigger. I'm assuming that you didn't. Susan says, I'm 78 and I find it impossible to find comfortable but stylish shoes.

My age group don't necessarily want to wear Velcro straps, yet age does mean flat feet and bunions. Please, please, a plea for more extra and extra plus plus widths. White trainers are not the answer to everything, but they're all I have at the moment. Yes, I'm glad you actually discovered trainers, Susan, because they are, they're a world of shoe comfort, aren't they?

I'm more or less wearing only trainers at the moment outside my professional life when I do still favour a low heel, which I kid myself makes me seem professional. Although after the morning we've had here, quite frankly, I think others might doubt that it's been one of those mornings because I keep emphasising this. There aren't that many of us here and that can lead not to cock upsups exactly but just to um no certainly not i've been told no definitely not to cock-ups but just to additional pressures upon the brave souls willing to come into the house that is forever broadcasting uh now to um the spending review and um this is from karen i work for local government pay cuts and freezes are standard the last pay freeze was only lifted this year well that was a point that paul make in our conversation. I'm lucky I can afford

not to have a cost of living rise, but some local government workers don't have a level of pay to manage and or were essential workers, cleaners, bin men, carers, etc. Are MPs classing themselves as public sector workers? They've just been awarded a pay increase. Well, it's interesting you mentioned that, Karen. I wonder whether MPs will take that pay rise if indeed there is a freeze on public sector pay. And as Paul also made clear, we don't know for sure that that's going to happen. Jay says, don't forget to say that public sector workers have been keeping the country running and saving lives, usually putting themselves at risk in order to do so. Health workers and teachers being the most numerous and most obvious. Freezing their pay is no way to pay them back.

Nikki, why is it when the economy is booming, no one ever says, oh, let's pay civil servants a living wage. Yet in recession, we're singled out as a group of workers who are a drain on society. And not all civil servants are in the professional bands. How is it fair that cleaners and care workers have their pay frozen? And to anyone banging on about the wonderful final salary pension, it doesn't exist anymore, says Nikki. From Pat, as a retired teacher, I really feel that anyone who works in the public sector should be grateful to have a secure job despite the difficulties. They cannot understand the worry of losing your job and its consequences. Having a pay freeze in

these times is not the end of the world for them. Losing your job sometimes is for those in the private sector. From Linda, having spent most of my former life as a public sector worker, I'm appalled by the sudden desertion of principle regarding the tireless efforts of public service workers throughout this desperate year. I would also like to draw attention to the plight of charity workers as well. Two people in our family have worked for charities most of their adult life. They are both now facing redundancy. I'm sorry to hear that, Linda,

and I do appreciate that so many people are having an absolutely wretched time at the moment with real, real worries. Now, to the interview I did with Uslem Cekic, Sue says, I was really struck by that interview as a trained community mediator, the art of listening, actively stepping into conflict situations, confronting stereotypes

and challenging thinking in a way which is respectful and non-judgmental and focused on creating understanding and looking for common ground and positive resolutions can have powerful, important and long-lasting outcomes for all involved. I will definitely be adding Uslam's book to my reading list, says Sue. Yes, highly recommend it. Now, on to the natural world. Catherine, I listened with disbelief to the statement you read out from HS2. Look, I just read them out. I don't write them. Catherine says, I live near the line and I'm witnessing complete destruction of established hedgerows,

ancient woodland and beautiful countryside. What they say is environmental whitewash. From Fiona, making a similar point, their claims about how many trees they're planting is disingenuous. They are destroying ancient woodland and that cannot be replaced. From Pete onto the subject, the aptly named Pete, not the same spelling, it beggars belief that we are still having to tell gardeners to buy peat-free compost. I'm a keen gardener and I'm sure we were having this conversation probably in the 80s, certainly in the 1990s.

Pete says we should by now have regulated peat compost out of existence. Some really interesting emails this morning. Thank you all. We do appreciate it when you take the time to contact us after the programme because it just means that we can provide illuminating additional content for the podcast at the end of the programme. We always get a range of opinion and I think that's really important. Okay, we'll keep grinding on. Tomorrow's programme on paper promises some quite interesting material. We're talking about orgasmic meditation and we're talking about taxidermy. Please do join us then. Have a reasonable day. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she

have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.