Woman's Hour - Spiking, The pill, Family dynamics at Christmas

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

The Met Police have reported that cases of spiking - putting alcohol or drugs into another person's drink or body without their consent - have quadrupled in London over the last five years. This week ...the Home Office set out new provisions to provide training for venue staff and test-kits for customers. Campaigner Sharon Gaffka joins Jessica Creighton to talk about whether that's enough for spiking victims. As we gear up for Christmas, some people might be considering the age-old question: How do you survive the big day without falling out with your family? With unwanted questions about your parenting style, your career or even your love life - tensions can often rise over the brussels sprouts. Camilla McGill is a parent coach and joins Jessica to give us tips on how to manage anxieties and stress with loved ones.A 16-year-old girl died last week from what is thought to have been a blood clot - three weeks after being prescribed the contraceptive pill. According to the NHS, there is a very low risk of serious side effects from taking the pill. Dr Janet Barter is a consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Barts Health NHS Trust in London – she tells Jessica the facts we need to know around the pill.Last year, female-owned businesses received just 2% of all venture capital funding, Parliament’s Treasury Committee found. Entrepreneur Grace Beverley wants to raise awareness of the female funding gap. She joins Jessica to talk about her business model and using her platform to empower women. If you are a woman who is adopted, then the decision to have children of your own can be a complicated one, as your own birth family’s medical history may be a mystery to you. How do you know what you are passing on through your genes? Writer and journalist Katharine Quarmby has been looking into this issue because she has had to grapple with it herself. She joins Jessica to discuss. Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Lottie Garton

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:00:43 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, we're already midway through the week and, of course, Christmas is getting nearer and nearer. Of course, it can be an exciting time for many people, but it can also be a very stressful time, particularly if you're expecting to have those invasive questions thrown at you over Christmas dinner. Now, you might have experienced those, shall we say, inquisitive family members bombarding you with questions about your career or your parenting style, or even your love life, or lack thereof for some people.
Starting point is 00:01:28 And when the criticism comes, how do you handle it? That's the question I'm asking you this morning. What types of prying questions have you been asked by family members at Christmas? Get in touch with us because I'd love to know. Did you bite your tongue or maybe you bit back? You can text the program using the number 84844. Remember that text will be charged at your standard message rate. Perhaps you feel like a message simply won't do it this morning and you need to talk to me.
Starting point is 00:01:57 You need to tell me about these questions from family members. So you can send me a voice note on 03700 100 444. Just be aware that data charges may apply. So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. We're always on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website as well. I can't wait to hear your stories. And a bit later in the programme, we'll be speaking to an expert about this who helps coach people through these exact scenarios. And I know for me personally, I will definitely be needing some tips. Now also this morning, I'll be talking to a woman standing up for female entrepreneurship after figures released earlier this year shows that just 2% of venture capital funding went to female owned businesses. And also, the difficult journey of finding out your medical history if you've been adopted and why it's especially important if you're a woman. All of that to come this morning, but first, more training for door staff and funding for testing kits are among a new set of measures announced this week to crack down on spiking, that is,
Starting point is 00:03:02 putting alcohol or drugs into another person's drink or body without their consent. The Home Office has said the law would also be modernised to make it clear spiking is a crime. However, it won't be made a specific offence. We know that the majority of victims are women in their 20s and yesterday the Metropolitan Police revealed that drink spiking offences have more than quadrupled in London over the last five years. Sharon Gaffker is a violence against women activist who campaigns on this issue and she joins me now. Good morning Sharon. Good morning. Thank you for coming on. Now spiking has been in the news a fair amount this week so were you shocked by the drink spiking
Starting point is 00:03:43 offences quadrupling and those figures being from just one single police force? No, I can't say that I'm surprised at all. I think that drink spiking is not a new crime. It's been prevalent for many years, you know, even before I was born. But I think that more people are willing to come forward and talk about it. And I think that now that we are coming out of the pandemic, and people are going out and socialising more, I'm not surprised to see that these numbers are rising. Yeah, it's definitely becoming an increasing issue in terms of people talking about it now that we are out and about a lot more. How much do you welcome the government's new announcement on this then and that they will be modernising the law?
Starting point is 00:04:28 You know, I can completely empathise with the fact that it takes a significant amount of time to create a standalone offence. So, you know, this is the quicker route to modernising legislation to say that drink spiking or spiking in general is wholly illegal. Obviously, the fact that I've been campaigning on this for over two years, the fact it's taken over two years to get to this point kind of says that, to me, it says that, you know, it's not a massive priority and that it's kind of just doing it now just to kind of keep campaigners quiet. Obviously, I do appreciate the additional measures that are being introduced alongside the updated legislation,
Starting point is 00:05:05 because updating the law will mean nothing if you're not accompanying it with additional measures to tackle the crime. You know, as somebody who's been spiked myself, had I had an adequate drink testing kit made available to me or door staff or venue staff that were adequately trained to be able to spot the signs of drink spiking and be able to advocate for me when it came to talking to paramedics or talking to the police, I might have been able to get a criminal conviction. Yeah, and so you do feel like these new measures will certainly help. But you wanted, as you say, it to be made a specific criminal offence. What difference would that have made?
Starting point is 00:05:40 I think for me, it was more focusing on societal and policing attitudes towards this crime you know when something is made criminal in law people start to look at it very differently especially when it's got its own piece of legislation you know if we're seeing numbers as big as they are we want survivors and victims to feel like they are being protected and that they can come forward one of the biggest reasons I've noticed that survivors don't like to speak about their own experiences or have taken years to come forward is that people still don't see it as as being a crime against the person. They see it as, you know, somebody who has been irresponsible or made a decision and then changed their mind. Why do you think that is? Where does that come from?
Starting point is 00:06:22 I think it's the stereotypical reason. So people automatically think that spiking is a date break drug and a drink at a dodgy event of some kind. When actually what I've experienced when I've been talking about this is that, you know, no person is safe from this. It can happen to anyone at any venue. You know, I was in a restaurant. I was fully clothed, like fully covered, broad daylight. And that because these crimes tend to disproportionately impact women as opposed to men for the purpose of sexual offences, a lot of the time we hear the same rhetoric about how a woman might have done something and then changed her mind and actually it was completely out of her control. I'm sorry to hear you went through such a traumatic experience.
Starting point is 00:07:09 Do you mind talking about it? Do you mind telling us what happened exactly? It might help a lot of people listening today. Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I don't mind talking about it at all. And I think it's important for me to talk about it to be able to highlight the issues. So for people that don't know my stories, it was after it was the first time we were allowed out after the first national lockdown when restaurants started to open, we were allowed out after the first national lockdown when restaurants started to open we were still under very strict covid restrictions um you know i wanted to see my friends just the same way anybody else did we went out for lunch um our order was pretty much the same as it used to be before the before covid and before the pandemic um except the only difference is the last drink i had I turned around to my friend said I don't feel
Starting point is 00:07:45 very well something doesn't feel right and I'd gone to the bathroom I'd locked myself in a cubicle my friend came out of her cubicle thought that I'd gone back to the table waited five minutes when looking for me in the restaurant couldn't find me went back to the bathroom the cubicle I went into was still locked they picked the lock and found me unconscious between the toilet and the cubicle door. And, you know, I thought me locking myself in the bathroom just happened to be by chance. But I've spoken to a lot of people that have spoken to a lot of survivors. And one thing they found very common is that people do lock themselves in the toilet when they feel unsafe because they know that they're in danger they feel it inside them but they don't know why so they try
Starting point is 00:08:28 and find a place of safety and that must have been what was going through my thought process at the time what a scary experience and i suppose you must be very grateful to your friends coming looking for you after quite a short amount of time five minutes is is pretty quick it's pretty responsive yeah so I think I will I always be so grateful to the women that I had around me for being so vigilant because had they not been the outcome of what had happened to me could have been hugely different um and it might not have been A&E that I regained consciousness in you made a specific point of telling us what you were wearing as well why because i i
Starting point is 00:09:06 again because i think societal attitudes think that it's automatically well i've had a lot of backlash talking about my story and campaigning on this um and i've always had messages from people being like well what were you wearing where were you going um and it i want to make a point of the fact it has nothing to do with what a victim or a survivor is wearing. It has nothing to do with what a victim or survivor where they were, because I've had 1,500 people come to me with stories of their own experiences. And sometimes these are people that have never spoken about it before until they felt comfortable coming to me because I shared my story and these are people ranging from 14 to 65 in a vast different array of venues wearing a different array of clothing so I make that point to prove that it can happen to anyone at any time. And you've had people come to you like you say that haven't reported it and you didn't report it to the police why not? I think that because of these, I felt a lot of shame and guilt.
Starting point is 00:10:07 I think that because of these societal attitudes, because of the things that people said to me when they're trying to troll me about this campaign, is, you know, you start to question, you know, did I do something wrong? Could I have done something differently? And especially as a woman, when you grow up, you're always told, don't leave your drink unattended. Don't do this. don't do that. And you're like, did I do all of those things? Is there something that I could have done differently? But it's not about that. And I think that that's why a lot of people don't want to report it to the police, because a lot of the time policing have similar attitudes.
Starting point is 00:10:39 Now, we have these figures obtained by the BBC that suggests that while there were nearly 5,000 reports of spiking related incidents to forces in England and Wales in 2021-22, there were just 40 convictions in the preceding four years. So why do you think it's so difficult for the police to bring a case? I suppose, again, does it play into this idea of societal attitudes and victim blaming? I think because it's not been taken seriously as a crime against the person, it's been very hard to be able to collate evidence. So, for example, I had a drink spiking test kit made available to me. We knew which drink it was. We could have tested it at the time. We could have had trained staff advocate for me. We could have caught that person before they even left the venue um but that wasn't possible so therefore i would never been able to get a conviction had i reported it to the police i also think as well that when sexual offenses take place as a secondary crime to spiking sometimes the victim doesn't even know that it's happened to
Starting point is 00:11:39 them because they've been completely unconscious i probably wouldn't have known it would happen to me if it did. Or that when people are spiked for the purposes of theft or robbery, that they probably got a conviction under that, if they could prove that, as opposed to spiking. So I think it's always as an afterthought, as opposed to, you know, this is the first thing that somebody did, and they did it with intention to cause harm to somebody for something else. Sharon, I appreciate you sharing your experience with us this morning i think a lot of our listeners will have definitely taken away something from this particularly as we go out over christmas um and the need for us to be perhaps extra vigilant sharon gaffer thank you
Starting point is 00:12:20 very much for coming on to to woman's. Sharon Gaffigan there, a violence against women activist. We do have a statement as well from the Home Office. Home Secretary James Cleverley has said, The public should be under no illusion. Spiking is a serious offence. And I urge anyone who suspects they have been a victim of this to contact the police now. The government has already gone further than ever before to protect the public from harm and ensuring that women and girls can live their lives free from fear
Starting point is 00:12:52 is one of the top priorities as Home Secretary. Now, Christmas is just four days away. Those celebrating are likely to be in the thick of preparations, food, presents, all of that type of stuff. But there might be another aspect of Christmas that we need to prepare for, and that is surviving the big day without falling out with your family. Oh my goodness, I feel stressful just thinking about it. You might have experienced those, shall we say, unwanted questions about your parenting style or your career or even your love life or lack thereof. But worry not. My next guest is an expert in navigating tricky family dynamics and has some very helpful tips for you.
Starting point is 00:13:40 Kimina McGill is a parenting coach and joins me live in the studio now. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. OK, we'll start with the parents aspect of this first. What anxieties and worries do parents come to you with at this time of year, in particular, particularly at Christmas? Yeah, I think there's sometimes parents haven't taken their children to see relatives for some time. You know, Christmas may be the only time of year when they visit grandparents or other relatives. And so the stakes are high. As a parent, you're constantly wanting to sort of show your relatives how lovely your children are. And when the children really do also pick up on our own anxiety they're
Starting point is 00:14:28 like little sponges I always tell my clients this you know think about your child as a little sponge and so if you're feeling particularly anxious about how your child might behave when you take them to see grandma at Christmas they're going to be picking up on that and then it's sort of into the mix is grandma's expectation of how a child should behave which is often vastly different from the parents which is often vastly different from the parents and so you can just you know it can start even at the hello
Starting point is 00:15:01 your children can get quite, the stress of anticipation can make them withdraw. And so, you know, the door opens, grandma's there, arms open, and your child sort of hides behind your leg. And grandma's saying, well, you know, come on, give me a hug. And then you're, as a parent, you're then sort of stuck between the two, wanting your child to show affection, but also having sympathy that they're feeling overwhelmed. So it really can get very, very tricky. And you feel judged as a parent.
Starting point is 00:15:39 And that's the idea of judgment, isn't it? It's the idea of judgment. And I think, you know, the people that we most want our approval of is our parents. And so, you know, there's that. Then you're sort of saying to your child, go on, say hello, say hello. And they don't want to. So it can, yeah, it can just really make things tough. And this can happen at any time of year, understandably.
Starting point is 00:16:04 But what is it about Christmas in particular that makes it so much more tense? I think it's that just, you know, you know what it's like, the hype, the songs, the images of happy families. It's just that hype that Christmas in particular, it should be this really happy family occasion. That's a big expectation. It's the big expectation. Exactly. And it's just that one day. So I think that's probably what makes it worse at Christmas.
Starting point is 00:16:38 Then there's also the whole gift giving that, you know, comes into it. And you can get a child that says, they open it and they say, I didn't want that. Children are brutally honest at times. They are, exactly, exactly. We've got lots of messages coming in about this because our listeners have been in this conversation, as have many of us. I'm sure you have come to your particular tips in a moment.
Starting point is 00:17:02 But people are getting in touch to say, difficult questions around Christmas. Okay, i remember a new year's eve party and being asked about when i was going to have kids yeah privately going through a long and grueling fertility journey always a difficult conversation and i wish more people were sensitized to that happily i now have a nearly 12 year old which is great which is great to hear. So I suppose there's a, is there a balance between perhaps biting your tongue to try and keep the peace, but also wanting to stand up for yourself, defend yourself? Yes, yes, absolutely. I mean, interestingly, I had this very experience. I'd lost my first baby during pregnancy. And I, my mother-in-law, bless her, of, you know, say something nasty back. But also,
Starting point is 00:18:07 I wanted to defend myself. I wanted to open, you know, have a voice for that feeling. So I actually thought about it. And the next day, I said to her, we went for a walk. And I said, you might not have realized it, but it was very painful. She was so upset. She cried. She said, I just didn't realise. So I think the other thing, I think if you're anticipating these sorts of questions, whether it's, you know, what are you doing with your career? Or, you know, are you still single? It's quite good to think it through in your head beforehand. So play the scenario in your head and work out your response? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm always advising parents to have a response that is sort of clear and assertive, but doesn't necessarily blame the other person for the question that they've asked. OK, we have another message here that's come in from someone. They've texted us to say, I was asked how my partner and I planned on having children. We're lesbians, so it's not quite as straightforward. We don't want kids didn't seem to be the answer they wanted. So it's not just parents, it's those people,
Starting point is 00:19:13 even without children, that are having to handle these invasive questions about their love lives, about many things. So what are your top tips for dealing with those uncomfortable family conversations? It's a great question and I guess it would also it would come back to that assertiveness it would say I'm sure you're really keen to know that answer and actually it's not one that I feel comfortable in giving you. Okay. I think that's just quite a good it's it's always set some boundaries without being defensive, without being defensive. I can understand why you'd why you'd want to know. And it's not it's something we've not decided to share. There's another dynamic here that often comes into play at Christmas time as well.
Starting point is 00:19:57 And that's when you're back with your family, back with your siblings, falling back into those behavioral patterns from when you were growing up, when you were children together, particularly if you're going back to the family home. So how can people deal with that as adults? I think it's also, you know, it's sort of trying to think these are actually adults. You know, my bossy older sister, my brother that lounges on the sofa, they are still adults.
Starting point is 00:20:23 They are still having an adult life. I feel like you're talking about my family right now. And I suppose it's trying to relate to them in that way rather than trying, you know, it happens when we go back. It doesn't, if you go back to a school environment and you sort of revert back to that person you are at school, I suppose it's just thinking, you know, I'm an adult. So maybe I could say, look,, you know, I'm an adult.
Starting point is 00:20:48 So maybe I could say, look, are you going to help with the washing up without, again, that kind of defensiveness. Another top tip is coming from one of our listeners. They say, I like to add, and you, to the end of my questions, or any questions that they receive, to difficult questions, because it gives them a taste of their own medicine, to have to answer their own question. Yes, yes. And what about you? Good tip.
Starting point is 00:21:10 Yeah. What do you do? What do I do when I'm asked a difficult question? I mean, I think I've often had it more around my children. So, you know, it might be, isn't he walking yet? Or is she still in nappies? And I would sort of, I would probably, if I was going to come back, I would kind of maybe make a joke.
Starting point is 00:21:35 That's quite a good one. So is she still in nappies? Yeah, as long as she's not out of them by the time she goes to university, we're okay by that. But tell me about you what's going on in your life so you can cut you know whether it's a direct related question or on indirect just you know again kind of like you say just putting putting the emphasis back on that other person okay i'm going to be honest with you. I always field these types of questions from family members. I tend to just walk away, which I don't think is the best response. Is there a reason for perhaps sometimes arguing the case that we need to be less defensive when we ask these questions?
Starting point is 00:22:19 Should I be less defensive? I think it's going to help. I mean, if we're talking about navigating tricky family dynamics, you know, what I'll always say to the parents that I'm coaching is, and this is very much sort of related how you relate to your child as well. Think about the result that you want. If you don't want a child to have a massive tantrum about it, about something, then just think, well, if I speak to them in a really harsh tone of voice, I'm probably going to fuel it.
Starting point is 00:22:53 So if I say so, but equally, you know, just walking away, it's just always better to try and talk things through. And, you know, you can still defend yourself if it's in your sort of situation. But when related to a child, just think about what result do I want? Am I doing this to please the other person? Am I saying something to my child because I know that grandma wants me to scold them? But actually I know if the result that I want is that I've showed my child that I've really understood
Starting point is 00:23:36 they're feeling embarrassed, they're feeling a bit stressed, they're feeling anxious, then scolding them is not going to help that. That's a great point. And actually you've given us some really practical tips there in the run up to Christmas. Camilla McGill, parenting coach, thank you so much for coming on to Women's Hour this morning. I found that really useful. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. And someone else has got in touch to say, I was almost 35 when my son was born,
Starting point is 00:24:03 but I can't remember anyone asking me when or if I was going to procreate. The only thing that really seemed to offend older female relatives was my inability to drive. I was told repeatedly that I had to learn. Now in my 70s, I still haven't. Thank you, Julia, for that message. Now, 16-year-old Leila Khan died last week from a blood clot. Her family claims a GP misdiagnosed her symptoms as the stomach flu just days before she was pronounced brain dead. This happened just three weeks after she was prescribed the contraceptive pill. Now, we should say that there is no indication that the blood clot was a direct result of her taking the pill,
Starting point is 00:24:43 but with stories like these, it's very easy to get concerned. According to the NHS, there can be serious side effects from taking the contraceptive pill, including blood clots and cervical cancer, but these are very low risk. So let's just remind ourselves of the facts around the pill. I'm joined now by Dr. Janet Barter, a consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Barts Health NHS Trust in London. Good morning, Janet. Good morning. Thanks for having me on the programme. Oh, a pleasure. I appreciate that you're going to just lay out the facts for us now. And I know
Starting point is 00:25:18 that you can't talk specifically about Layla's case, but how common is it for people to develop blood clots after taking the contraceptive pill? So first of all can I say I'm speaking as president of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare which is an organisation that produces guidelines and training for practitioners in sexual and reproductive health. Yes of course course. Thank you. And of course, you're absolutely right to say that I can't speak about this particular case, which is so tragic. And I think we would all want to send our condolences
Starting point is 00:25:53 to the family. I think managing risk is really difficult. We tend to think that if we don't do anything, then there's not any risk. And of course, in life, that's not the case. So we do know, as you say, that when you take the if a woman takes the combined pill, it does very slightly increase the risk of blood clots. So if there is if a woman is not taking the combined pill, then the risk is about two per 10,000 that she will have a blood clot. So not nothing. If she takes the combined pill, depending on factors about herself and also which pill it is,
Starting point is 00:26:32 the risk would be between five and 12 per 10,000. So you can see the risk is really, really low, but not nothing. But of course, what we do have to say is the risk is far higher in pregnancy and post-pregnancy. So protecting yourself from pregnancy is actually a very good way of protecting yourself from a blood clot. OK, what are the other risks that people need to know about, though? So, well, that's the main one. We also talk about side effects of the pill. So we know that one of the things about the pill is that women can sometimes get...
Starting point is 00:27:10 I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.
Starting point is 00:27:28 How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Headaches, nausea, mood changes. Which pill you take can make a difference so it's very important to talk to a health care professional about which is the right pill for you um and if you do have problems with the pill then it's important um to talk to somebody and to get really good information
Starting point is 00:28:01 like from the nhs website that you quoted earlier. Okay but as well as learning about the side effects there are benefits of taking the combined pill? Absolutely so and this is one of the things that we talk about a lot because people don't always realise this so apart from preventing pregnancy and of course there's lots of different ways of preventing pregnancy so the right thing to do is to find the right contraception for you. But the combined pill can be really beneficial in terms of controlling some of the side effects of our menstrual cycle. So it really can help with heavy periods, with painful periods, with premenstrual syndrome. Sometimes migraine is a complicated one, but some migraines that occur around the time of the period can be better with the pill.
Starting point is 00:28:47 So there are definitely lots of advantages. It's also quite helpful for women later in life, so long as they don't have particular risk factors, because it can help with some that there was a very slight rise in the risk of blood clots when women on the pill were taking certain types of painkillers. What can you tell us about that? I think, again, it's quite a small risk, isn't it? Yes, I think it is quite a small risk. And I think at the moment we don't have enough information to say that that's clinically significant. Whenever a woman is prescribed the pill, whether that's from a doctor, a nurse or a pharmacist, there will always be an assessment of her risk. So it's very important. I was interested to see that you're talking about this later in the programme. It's very important to understand about your family history. So the risk of thrombosis is increased if you're overweight, for example. It's increased if you
Starting point is 00:29:43 have severe migraines, particularly migraines that affect your eyesight. But it's also increased if you're overweight, for example. It's increased if you have severe migraines, particularly migraines that affect your eyesight. But it's also increased if somebody in your family has had a thrombosis. So I think it's really important, particularly for young girls, to actually talk to their mothers, particularly, and understand what there is in the family, because we don't always know what our parents have suffered in the past. Yeah, we will be talking about that, particularly why it's important for women who have been adopted to know about their medical history, not just in terms of what they can pass on
Starting point is 00:30:13 to their children, but also what they might be more susceptible to through their genetics. But from this month, when we were looking at the contraceptive pill, women in England will be able to get the pill from their local pharmacy without having to contact their GP first. Do you think that's safe? How safe is it? This is a really interesting scheme. And it's been developed because we know that access to contraception is not as good as it should be. So women can get into sexual health services, they can get into general practice, but it's not easy. And there's also quite a lot of stigma sometimes about going to a service like that. So we think that going to
Starting point is 00:30:55 your pharmacist may be very suitable for some women. Now, of course, pharmacists are highly trained professionals. They have had particular training so that they can go through those risk factors and advise women whether the pill is safe for them or not, which pill might be best for them, how to take it, all the things that you need to know. So I think it is a good scheme, but I think it's really important that healthcare professionals work together. My particular worry is for those women for who the pill might not be suitable. It's really important that those women aren't just sent away, but that the pharmacist has the connections with primary care and with specialist services so that that woman can be helped to find the right contraception for herself. And again, for all our listeners, what is your advice to anyone who might be worried about what they're reading right now and whether they're at risk or what the risks are when they're taking the pill? Thank you that's such an important question. So one of the things to remember about the pill is that the risk of thrombosis is actually highest
Starting point is 00:31:55 at the beginning of taking it or taking it after you've had a break. So if you have been on the pill for some time the first thing is don't stop because the risk of thrombosis in pregnancy is far, far higher than the risk of a pill. So if you're on the pill, don't stop it. If you're worried about any symptoms, then you need to talk to somebody in a specialist service or a primary care or a pharmacist because those symptoms almost definitely aren't anything to do with thrombosis because it is very rare but for somebody who's newly taking the pill it's always the same with any medication if you start taking a medication and then you get side effects or something that worries you then don't ignore that and it's always a good idea when you first start taking the pill to be using condoms as well so that if you do need to stop it because of side effects or worries, you're not at risk of pregnancy.
Starting point is 00:32:50 Dr. Janet Barter, thank you very much for that recap. And thank you for coming on to the programme this morning. We have this statement from the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency. Dr. Alison Cave, the MHRA chief safety officer, said this, We are saddened to hear of the death of Leila Khan and we extend our deepest condolences to her family at this very difficult time. The risk of blood clots associated with using the contraceptive pill is very small and has been known about for many years. The decision to prescribe or use the pill should take into consideration any risk factors for blood clots, which includes any family history of thrombosis.
Starting point is 00:33:29 These are very safe, highly effective medicines for preventing unintended pregnancy and the benefits associated with their use far outweigh the risks for the majority of people. Now, just taking a look at the messages coming in, I did ask you about the awkward questions you might be asked over Christmas and what your rebuttal might be. Lots of you are getting in touch. Someone has said here via text message, I've just realised that my new Christmas tactic of trying not to talk too much about myself by asking questions might look invasive. I always think it's nice, though, to show interest in family. I think that's probably what older generations are trying to do. But sometimes what you're struggling with on the inside, you can hear questions as criticism. If you work on your self-esteem, you won't feel bothered. And indeed, that is what our expert was saying in
Starting point is 00:34:18 terms of trying to feel less defensive. Mary, though, is coming at it from a different angle. She says, I didn't get married till I was 50. So for years put up with questions, why aren't you married? Or how comes you're still single, etc, etc. My standard reply was just lucky, I guess. It worked a treat and shut the topic down. But with a touch of humour, I'd thoroughly recommend it. I might be using that this Christmas, I'll be honest with you. Now, I wonder if my next guest has any rebuttals over the Christmas dinner table, because figures released this year show that female owned businesses received just 2% of all venture capital funding. That's according to the Parliament's Treasury Committee. Grace Beverley is an entrepreneur who founded three businesses, the first when she was just 18.
Starting point is 00:35:04 Her activewear brand Tala secured 4.2 million pounds worth of investment earlier this year and won the Every Woman brand of the Future Award just a few weeks ago. Congratulations. At the awards, she made her speech and took the opportunity to shed light on the female funding gap. And she joins me live in the studio. Good morning, Grace. Good morning. So do you have any rebuttals over the Christmas dinner table when you get asked those awkward questions? I mean, I'm sure I do. They'll probably be more off the cuff,
Starting point is 00:35:34 but very prepared for them always. I feel like it's important to be. Well, our listeners are flying in with the tips and the offers of support and help for us. So don't worry. We've got you covered. We've got you covered. But let's talk about this funding figure and this funding gap. Less than 2% of female owned businesses receiving venture capital funding. It really made me sit up, I have to say. Now you yourself have said, in what other industry would there be a 98% gender disparity and only a muted level of sanitized outrage?
Starting point is 00:36:09 Have you been able to answer that question? No, I actually haven't, which I think sheds a lot of light on the reality of the situation. And I think it is easy to look at it and kind of say, OK, well, this is an entrepreneur specific issue. I think that the fact that it's not being talked about probably shows how much it is still almost seeming like an old boys club. But also, if we think that every single company started from entrepreneurship, then that's a pretty severe issue. It might not be an issue for you at the moment. But we also know that women hire more women as well. So women in leadership positions hire more women in leadership positions, especially at a C-suite level, even at childbearing age, which might sound wild to some people. But so, you know, it is a problem that reaches further than just entrepreneurs.
Starting point is 00:36:57 But I just, I can't believe how many people don't know about the statistic. And I actually didn't know about the statistic until I really looked into it. And that's why I'm being so loud about it. I've been fortunate enough to receive funding. And I'm in the position where, you know, instantly upon that funding round was pretty much top 20 or something within the UK women who've raised funding. And for that to be the case, is shocking. And I would very outrageous, I would say.
Starting point is 00:37:24 Yeah, I'm interested in how you first got into business because as a young entrepreneur you started your first business whilst you were still a teenager just 18 then at 22 you you launched your activewear brand where did the idea come from initially? In terms of for the activewear brand or starting a business? Well for both I suppose because at 18 to decide right I'm going to be an entrepreneur, I'm going to start my own business, I'm going to go out on my own. It's quite a life changing decision. And it does really sound like a big jump.
Starting point is 00:37:53 And at the time when I was, I was actually my first time at university, the kind of origination story is actually quite funny because I actually received an email from my university saying, well, your student finance hasn't come in. We haven't received your tuition fees. So you're actually not allowed to return to campus. This was in Christmas holidays. Yeah. And so I completely freaked out and actually started the business within a week, not expecting to make enough to pay for that. Did you know what you were getting yourself in for? To start a business in a week? No, not really. I was more looking at it as starting a way to make a bit of money as soon as possible. And the way I did it was by creating PDFs that I then sold online, which were workout plans,
Starting point is 00:38:33 that everyone can kind of start on the same date. And that's obviously a very high margin product because each PDF you sell, you don't need to pay more to make the next one. So it's truly just, it's a marketer's dream, really. So at that time, it was actually just a reaction to Oxford saying, oh, no student finance for you. And me being like, oh, okay, better make this happen. So I wasn't expecting for it to even pay for that. But it did. And it really took off. So that was very, very exciting. But the second business that I started in my final
Starting point is 00:39:02 year at university, I actually, the whole reason for that had come from the fact that I'd moved away from fast fashion in my everyday in terms of kind of, you know, the majority of clothing that I was buying. And I realised as someone who was both a student and going to the gym a lot, so wearing activewear pretty much every single day, I realised that activewear was actually just a kind of big hole in my purchasing patterns where I was shopping the same as I used to shop mainly because the most sustainable options when it comes to fashion are rental and pre-owned and I don't know about you but activewear being rented or pre-owned isn't too appealing to me so it really felt like it's wholly attractive it doesn't feel like a complete substitute so I actually you know felt at a loss at that area of the industry. And so I looked into more sustainable options, they were generally about two and a half times the price of the non sustainable material kind of equivalents. So set out to create an activewear business that was going to create more sustainable, and it's important to say more sustainable, because fashion will never truly be
Starting point is 00:40:01 sustainable. So you're using the term more sustainable rather than simply just sustainable, because that is very subjective. It's very subjective. You know, if you're buying one pair of leggings every five years when your previous one falls apart, buying a pair of our leggings is not sustainable for you. Whereas if you are currently buying fast fashion activewear and you're switching to us, then that is more sustainable.
Starting point is 00:40:21 So what we like to do is actually... Why do you say it's more sustainable? Because in terms of, you know, shopping with a fast fashion brand for that active wear. So we talk about what we do do and then our whole messaging on our website, for example, is let us tell you what we do and then you can decide whether that is sustainable for you.
Starting point is 00:40:36 So you're trying to be transparent with your customers? Exactly. I mean, I think that's the... When it comes to sustainability and fashion, it is oxymoronic. Sustainable fashion... I mean, fashion is about getting people to consume. So if you're getting people to consume, that is antithetical to sustainability. So it's really important to highlight that.
Starting point is 00:40:51 And you say you were making that transition away from fast fashion, but your activewear brand is sold on ASOS, which many would contemplate to be a fast fashion website. Yeah, so we made that decision about three years ago now. We have a tiny proportion of our stock that is sold on ASOS. The decision was made because actually it is important to be where the customer is. And with that, in terms of, you know, disrupting the mass market, we need to be in the mass market. And I completely understand. And, you know, even being in fashion in the first place is, you could very much argue, unsustainable for our customer in terms of size range, in terms of availability, in terms of all of these different things. We absolutely have to engage in normal fashion practices in terms of where we are and distribution wise in order to be able to disrupt
Starting point is 00:41:39 their purchasing patterns from more fast fashion equivalents. But completely agree, there's no right or wrong answer at any time. And what is the decision that we made then might be different to a decision we make now. But realistically, for us, it's really been about getting everyone just to ask more questions about their activewear in particular as well. How difficult is it being so public facing because you have millions of followers across your social media, but you often use yourself and your, I suppose your face to sell your products. Is it difficult? Because you've got consumers coming directly to you, I suppose, and there can be backlash, there can be trolls, there can be negative comments. How do you deal with it all? It's a very quick feedback loop. I'll definitely say that. I would
Starting point is 00:42:18 say, though, that that is a privilege for any business owner. Receiving feedback and engagement from your customers is literally just what you want. That is the main aim from any business owner, receiving feedback and engagement from your customers is literally just what you want. That is the main aim from any business owner. So whilst you know, it often does come directly to me, Tala has an enormous audience that is completely separate from me as well. And so in terms of that, that's kind of, you know, I get some of the feedback that but the majority of it will go to the business as well. And actually, you know, having that engagement from our customers that do really care about what our next design looks like or whatever it might be is hugely important. Anyway, so I'll take that any day. Is that a welcome tactic for you to use your face to help sell the brand?
Starting point is 00:42:53 Because we see a lot of social media influencers doing that more and more these days. Well, I think it's interesting because I think actually when someone speaks about their own business on social media in terms of, you know, what they're doing, why they designed something a certain way, it is received differently from if you kind of had a brand deal with another company. I would really like to change that because I think especially with women, there is a heightened level of kind of seeing women's kind of business, whatever it might be within their business as a kind of more gossip side versus seeing a man, you know, as an entrepreneur on social media with a bigger platform, just saying, Oh, well, you know, they're doing their business. And actually, I think that there is definitely a difference in how it is received kind of either
Starting point is 00:43:35 way. So, you know, I, my main aim is to get the visibility of female business owners up. So more women, especially younger women who are deciding what they want to do with their lives and careers can see people in, you know, positions where they are running businesses. Yes, they are receiving criticism. Yes, they're making wrong decisions. And that is not, you know, that is against this kind of girl boss narrative that we've built up. You know, women are going to make mistakes, especially if they are so in the public eye when building a business in public. And I think the more we can show people making mistakes in public, the more it's going to kind of take down that strong reaction when women do, which is just a very classic part of being a business owner.
Starting point is 00:44:18 Yeah, and I think you're clearly doing that. And also, I know you speak about that on your podcast as well. Grace Beverly, it's been really interesting to talk to you. Entrepreneur Grace Beverly, thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Hour this morning. Now, if you're a woman who is adopted, having children can be a complicated decision if you don't know your birth family's medical history. How do you know if you're passing on certain conditions through your genes? And then later in life, you may have no idea about your potential increased risks of things like strokes or heart attacks, or when and what to expect during menopause. Writer and journalist Catherine Quamby has personal experience of this and joins me in the studio. Good morning, Catherine. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. Great to have you on. Now you were adopted and
Starting point is 00:45:00 you've spoken about this at length. Just tell us a bit about your experience. So I was adopted when I was three months old and I was adopted from an Iranian birth father and an English birth mother, adopted in Leeds. And I was a relatively straightforward adoptee. But like other adoptees at the time when I was adopted in the late 60s, I was tested for syphilis. I was checked for TB and really seen as I had to be handed over as a baby who didn't have any problems to my birth family. But the other side of that is no one really thought about what inheritable conditions I might carry and what problems that might cause in later life.
Starting point is 00:45:42 And does that change now? That was very much in the 1960s. Has that changed now? Because I think the focus back then when you were adopted was the threat that perhaps you might pose to your adoptive parents. Absolutely. And I think it is changing a little bit. But as of yet, as I found out when I wrote about this recently, NHS England still doesn't have any guidelines for adult adoptees,
Starting point is 00:46:05 indeed, or for their children. I've now got adult children who might be contemplating having children themselves. So I don't know what inheritable conditions I'm passing down to them. I think for children in the larger sort of care experienced background, there are more details available. But for adoptees, there's very little information given to prospective parents. And then you made the decision to try to track down your birth parents, which was possibly a difficult decision in itself, made more difficult because your birth father was Iranian and in Iran. Tell us about your experience and how difficult that was. It was really difficult to find him. Obviously, between the time when I was born and when I was tracing him in the late 1980s, 1990s, Iran had gone through the Iranian revolution. And as it
Starting point is 00:47:01 happened, and I didn't know this at the time, he had actually been imprisoned in Avine Prison, notorious prison, and he and other family members had been tortured. So I was very, very lucky. I actually was able to meet him. And that was through Iranian friends who are journalists. So it took a long time. Now we'll get to the family history. But I mean, meeting him for the first time, emotional, nervous, excited. How was he feeling? What was the experience like? Strange. You know, he actually had got a visa to come to the UK. So I met him in the UK and I'd just done press day at the newspaper I was working at. And I went up to meet him at St Pancras and there was this stranger walking on a station platform. But he had exactly the same
Starting point is 00:47:45 smile as me. So that was really nice, and also really strange. And then we had went and had lunch nearby with the Iranian friend journalist who had kind of helped to put us together, and talked a little bit about his history, which was also my history. Of course. How do you even broach that subject? Because there must be a whole array of questions that you want to ask outside of finding out about your medical history. But you need to with him, that wasn't the first bit of history that I wanted to broach. I wanted to find out about him and the life that he had lived because he'd first met, the time he'd ever met me was as a baby in a hospital in Leeds. And I'd never seen a photograph of him until I got in contact with him in 2006-7. Wow that's such a long time away isn't it my goodness me so what medical information did you eventually find out? I found out that eventually I found out that he had a hip condition but it wasn't the same as the one that I've ended up being diagnosed with which is osteoarthritis like many people in their 50s so again there's sort of sort of black holes really around what I do and don't know about
Starting point is 00:49:11 any inheritable conditions I mean there's I also talk to other adoptees and their experience in it if anything has been more serious than mine because so far so good I haven't inherited cancer stroke heart disease but some people have inherited more serious conditions. So what happens when people like yourself who have been adopted go to the doctors, go to the hospital, and they can't give a family medical history? There's usually just an embarrassed pause. And quite often the assumption is, well, then you're all right then. And of course, the assumption should be you're not all right. It should be turned on its head. But doctors, fair to them haven't received any training so the general medical council told me
Starting point is 00:49:49 when I was writing about this that there were no guidelines for treating adult adult adulties or indeed adult adulties contemplating having a family which is obviously where these risks sort of come into play in particular and also when you get later in life, you get a bit older, how is this lack of knowledge affecting you in your life now? I think I went through the menopause and I think if I had known that I might develop a genetic, a largely genetic condition, osteoarthritis, I would have taken different decisions around my treatment at that time.
Starting point is 00:50:21 So I think it really does affect you because you enter your 50s and that's when you know there's this phrase I think I saw it on mum's net of sniper's alley of you know all of those heritable diseases suddenly come at you thick and fast and you've got no idea where they're coming from perhaps exactly exactly that I just don't really know I have very little medical history what would you like to see changed? And where does this start? You already said there's no real specific guidelines from the NHS. What needs to change? I think even a step back from that is we need to know how many adopted people there are in the UK. We don't even know that. There's no survey, household survey question, no census question. And really data is at the heart of this. Then when we are adopted,
Starting point is 00:51:07 our original health record is sealed and we get a new health record. I think that needs to be unsealed for adoptees, even if it's in an anonymized fashion so we know what risks we carry. And I think there needs to be specific training for doctors encountering adopted people. One thing that you have mentioned
Starting point is 00:51:24 as one of our listeners has also mentioned is, for doctors encountering adopted people. One thing that you have mentioned, as one of our listeners has also mentioned, is she says, Elizabeth has texted in to say, one thing which is particularly annoying when filling in medical questionnaires online and being adopted is being faced with a long list of conditions and being asked if there are any of the following within your family history.
Starting point is 00:51:40 There is never a box to tick saying, I don't know my family medical history sometimes you can't continue through the form until you've ticked one of those boxes so your only choice is none which could be totally untrue it's hidden discrimination against adopted people because they're not acknowledging us yes and I think we need to be acknowledged as a cohort of at least several hundred thousand people in the UK, some of whom were forcibly adopted and faced that trauma as well, as the adult adoptee movement have written and campaigned about so eloquently.
Starting point is 00:52:16 So they face an extra trauma, especially during childbirth, where they might have some knowledge of their birth mother having a baby forcibly relinquished and then they're going through having a baby themselves. There's so much to unpack here for adoptees that we've barely scratched the surface of the kind of issues that adoptees face as they go through life. And do you feel like you're getting support now for it? I mean, I have an amazing family,
Starting point is 00:52:39 so I'm very, very lucky. Not everyone has a successful adoption, but for me my family are my family and I also have a very good relationship with my birth father in Iran and his wife and my half sisters my half birth sisters so I'm one of the lucky ones I don't feel I need any additional support but I have many friends who are adopted who I feel haven't had such good experiences and this is for them and it's for all our you know all our children and for every adoptee who's facing that moment where they're thinking
Starting point is 00:53:11 I'm going to start a family what risk do I carry? I just noticed you smiling there when you mentioned that you're in touch with your birth father as someone that you searched for high and low for 20 years how does it feel being back in touch with someone that helped bring you into this world? It's wonderful. I know that he didn't want to give me up. He tried very hard to take me back to Iran. And obviously that wouldn't have been a great outcome given the revolution. But that knowledge that he loved me and didn't want to relinquish me is kind of at the heart of our good relationship now, I think.
Starting point is 00:53:41 And has it helped you find out more about yourself? Yes, I think so. Not just genetically I mean but you know emotionally spiritually as a person. Yeah I mean I love Iranian art, I love Iranian food, I was at an Iranian restaurant last week with colleagues so I really feel like I've got this very rich cultural history both from my birth family and from my adoptive family and I think there's a lot of richness in adoption but there's also a lot of trauma and we need to acknowledge those two those two kind of poles of adoption and yeah. But you've mentioned that not everyone has that happy ending so you've spoken to a lot of adopted adults that perhaps aren't able to make contact with their birth
Starting point is 00:54:20 parents or simply their birth parents don't want to stay in contact with the child with the child yes and also people where they have been adopted and the adoption hasn't been as successful and so um you know often you you might make you might have a reunion with your birth family and that can be very successful or with one parent or with a sibling and that can work but you can also experience a second rejection where the birth family turns away from you so it's a it there's a lot to kind of deal with as an adopted person and you can find that your adopted family perhaps isn't as welcoming once you've gone for reunion with your birth birth family. That did not happen with me. My family were very, very welcoming and excited for me. But it's tricky emotionally on so many levels for people. Yeah, of course.
Starting point is 00:55:13 Now, you've mentioned you would like to see further guidelines, better training from medical staff. What about genetic screening? Has that got a place to play in this? Absolutely. I really do feel it's got a place to play because if you look at where the government is going with healthcare, it's about very precision-based healthcare, preventative healthcare.
Starting point is 00:55:32 Now, we as adoptees, as Liz said when she texted in, we can't tick those boxes so that we can get preventative healthcare because we can't prevent something we'd have no knowledge of. So I think there's a huge, you know, that there's potentially, we should have genetic screening ourselves as a cohort within the NHS so that we don't have to pay for ourselves. And indeed, other groups might actually benefit from this approach as well, right? I think so.
Starting point is 00:55:59 And I was wondering about surrogacy and also kind of our wider friends in the care experience kind of movement some of whom also don't have a lot of information my mother was telling me about someone who came to repair something in the house who was a foundling so so abandoned at birth in a phone box now his history how does he know what to do as he goes on and has a family himself so there's lots of us in this boat I think think we're just, we're the canary in the cage because we have a voice. We're very lucky in that way. And we have a, we have a movement really of people wanting to talk about this.
Starting point is 00:56:32 Catherine, it's been really interesting speaking to you. I found out a lot that I didn't know about before. I appreciate you coming on. Catherine Quornby coming on to speak about being an adopted adult. Now, I should say as well that we have this from NHS England and they told us that there is no national training and no guidelines, but that it is recognised that there is a gap and then they will be looking at how adoptees can be best served until a solution is found. Now, just taking a look again at the messages coming in from our listeners, I asked about the awkward questions that you might have to field over Christmas dinner over the next couple of days. Betty has said it's not just older members of a family who ask annoying questions. Those of us who are older are frequently subjected to questions like, do you think you should be doing that at your age as a mother?
Starting point is 00:57:21 And do you really think you should be going out so late in the evening? So yes, younger listeners, think about how you will respond to questions, but also about whether you are similarly guilty in relation to your parents and grandparents. Thank you so much, everyone, for getting involved. Just time to tell you about tomorrow, a live, last live programme before Christmas,
Starting point is 00:57:43 all-girl retro band and vocal harmony group Elle and the Pocket Bells will be singing live in the studio, adding to your Christmas cheer with a couple of seasonal songs. Really looking forward to that. Thank you to everyone for listening and for all of the people that got in touch. I'll be back tomorrow, just after 10. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. for Being Roman, a new series for BBC Radio 4. There's a young bride avenging the murder of her parents and an emperor flirting outrageously with his nervous teacher. Listen to Being Roman wherever you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:58:44 I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.
Starting point is 00:59:02 How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

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