Woman's Hour - Stacey Dooley, Police culture, Novice rowers become champions, Afghan women update, Anne Boleyn

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

Stacey Dooley has been presenting television documentaries for over 10 years – on everything from drug cartels in Southern Spain to illegal pornography in South Korea. Now the Sunday Times bestselling author has released a new book, exploring the state of mental health in the UK. ‘Are You Really OK?’ looks at – amongst other things – issues of PTSD, depression, psychosis; and what causes these things. Stacey reveals what she’s learnt.Yesterday on the programme we discussed the culture of policing in the light of misogynistic, discriminatory and violent texts exchanged between serving officers between 2016 and 2018. They were revealed as part of an IOPC investigation at Charing Cross police station in London. These revelations follow the murder of Sarah Everard and the treatment of Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman by serving Metropolitan Police officers. We asked how can a toxic culture be changed? A mother, Amanda, contacted us while we were on air. Her son, George, is planning to join the Police later this year and she is worried but he is determined to be part of the change. They both join Emma.Two women with no previous rowing experience have smashed the world record for the fastest female pair to row across the Atlantic. Jessica Oliver and Charlotte Harris rowed 3000 miles over 45 days in the Talisker Whisky Atlantic Challenge, battling 30 ft waves, sharks and sleep deprivation. They join us to discuss the experience. Some of Afghanistan's public universities reopened yesterday for the first time since the Taliban took over the country, with female students joining their male counterparts heading back to classes. Girls are still not allowed to attend secondary schools, and women remain barred from many jobs outside the health and teaching sector. This is unfolding against the backdrop of a major humanitarian crisis. Fawzia Koofi, the former Vice President of the National Assembly in Kabul and women's rights activist, updates us.You know the rhyme “divorced beheaded died, divorced, beheaded, survived.” The first women to lose her head at the hands of Henry VIII was Anne Boleyn - and her story is so often characterised by that tragic outcome that we may have overlooked the fact that she was a feminist and ahead of her time. This is the view of Dr Owen Emmerson who has curated an exhibition at Hever Castle - Anne's childhood home - called Becoming Anne: Connections, Culture, Court. But can she be seen as a feminist when the word hadn't even been invented? Emma is joined by Owen and Tracy Borman, the Tudor historian and Chief Curator at Historic Royal Palaces who is currently writing a book about the relationship between Anne Boleyn and her daughter Elizabeth. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Stacey Dooley Interviewed Guest: Jessica Oliver Interviewed Guest: Charlotte Harris Interviewed Guest: Tracy Borman Interviewed Guest: Dr Owen Emmerson

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today I would really welcome your tales of boosting morale. How have you done it? What have been the tools, the techniques, the moments that come to mind when I ask that question? I'm inspired to ask it because two British women with no previous rowing experience have smashed the world record for the fastest female pair to row 3,000 miles that it is across the Atlantic. And we have them

on the programme today. 29-year-old Jessica Oliver, 30-year-old Charlotte Harris fought sleep deprivation, huge waves, hallucinations, blisters, heat, capsizing, all of that together, and then resorted to shouting made-up stories to each other. At one point, I believe, about scullery maids in the 1800s. I kid you not. They are great friends. Well, they were when they started. We'll find out how they are now. They met at Cardiff University 10 years ago, and after working their way through all of their music playlists, I'm told they had to find other ways of keeping their spirits up. So we'll hear from them very shortly. But what are your tales of boosting morale? Perhaps maybe you've not quite been rowing the Atlantic. I don't know what you've been doing. You've been in a moment and you just needed something to get you through. What was it?

What did somebody say? What did somebody do? What did you do? Tell me. 84844. That's the number you need to text. Do text for those charges. It's standard message rate. Social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour.

Or email me through the Women's Hour website. Also on today's programme, the documentary maker, Stacey Dooley, has turned her attention to whether people in this country really are OK. And a question I probably only would ever ask on Woman's Hour in quite that segue. Is it time to see Anne Boleyn in a whole new light? Perhaps a feminist new light? Well, yesterday on the programme, you may recall if you heard it, if not, catch back up on BBC Sounds. It was quite the programme.

We started at the start of the programme to try and prise open what's really going on in policing in light of those misogynistic, racist and violent texts exchanged between serving metropolitan officers between 2016 and 2018. They were revealed as part of an investigation at Charing Cross police station in London. Of course, these revelations follow the murder of Sarah Everard at the hands of a serving police officer and the treatment of Bieber Henry and Nicole Smallman by serving police officers, metropolitan police officers who took and shared photos of the women's bodies. And today, the Met Commissioner Cressida Dick has been put on notice by the London Mayor Sadiq Khan. His spokesperson said the mayor made clear to the commissioner how angry he is with a return to the bad days of the mess of his childhood in the 70s and 80s. And that neither he nor Londoners, of course, which is where the Metropolitan Police are, will put up with this. And she risks losing his confidence.

We have again today and will continue to do so, invited Cressida Dick onto our programme. Well, I do ask every day for your contributions on specific parts of the programme and also as we go through. And you don't disappoint. Many of you contacted the programme yesterday to offer your views and we also heard from many police officers serving past, of course as well,

those who had served and present. Amanda also wrote in. She emailed in while we were on air because her son George is planning to join the police later this year and she's worried. I caught up with her just before coming on air today and I started by asking her what her concerns are. And George was also on the line. A while ago, George decided that he would like to join the police and he then enrolled in a course, a policing and criminology course.

And initially I was sort of worried when he first said it more as a mum worrying about his safety on the streets and, you know, everything that goes along with that. And then I thought, well, this is what he really wants to do. So I decided I wanted to back him 100%. He was very ambitious to do this and um so off he went to college um in the meantime what's you know more and more of this uh these different revelations have been coming out about what's what's going on on the ground in the police force

yes and I found myself now actually nervous for what he might encounter in the station far more than nervous for what he might encounter out on the street. Which is quite an extraordinary thing to say, isn't it? And to feel. It is. It is. It feels odd. And I really looked at this and thought, am I responding too much to what's in the press? Or is this, you know, is it unfounded? Is it very much small pockets of problems in the force? Or is this something that's spread all the way through, in which case he has a very high likelihood of coming across this himself. George, what do you make of your mum's concerns about the culture or the language or the style of people that you're going to come across in the police perhaps being more worrying than what you're actually going to deal with out there?

I think that there might be bullying in every workplace, and especially ones where it requires like a certain level of aptitude but my mum is just like any other mum and I think that most mums would worry uh but I just think that um it's something I really wanted to do and you know you just gotta do it if you feel like you want to I suppose why do you want to be a police officer well what I want to do has changed quite a lot over the over the years as it does for most young people. But mostly it's just like you see bad things happen to people and you just, you know, you just want to help them. And sometimes you don't want to get really personal with them, but you just want to know that you're protecting them.

And I also know that in the future, if I was ever to have a family or anything, it would be a really nice thing to have my kids know that I do is a job that's something that they can be proud of. So it's just like a multitude of good things that go with it, I suppose, for me. And do you feel as someone coming in, because we were talking a little bit about this on yesterday's programme, about how important it is to recruit and who you recruit and how you train them and the culture that surrounds them. Do you feel optimistic that perhaps your generation could be different? And we are by no means saying that it's all parts of the police that are having these issues, but we do see more and more evidence that these sorts of conversations have been happening. Yeah. I think the new generations are more aware, for sure, than the

older generations. I think that we were still recovering from like quite a lot of bad cultures in like the 80s and the 90s and things. And my teacher, for instance, he started being a police officer in the 80s. And he himself had a firsthand account of how worse things are. He tells us daily that they have come a long way. And even in training, for instance, with me, the amount of times you're told, you know, we're a diverse police force we want to be as diverse as we can um i think they they're trying their best but there's still obviously a lot of problems i i hope that as the generations progress it might kind of filter out i suppose i mean amanda of course you'll remember being george's age and the hopes and dreams that you had and i'm sure still have in some ways but um in your email to us you said he's not the type to stay quiet.

And of course, there is this concern still about in the police, because, you know, the messages I read out yesterday or the ones I was able to read out in part because they were too abusive and vile to read out at the time. I certainly broadcast, although some were saying, please do read them out. You know, one of the issues is, and they were from 2016 to 2018, you know, they're not from a long time ago,

is this call-out culture is still a problem within the police and how you police the police is an issue. Absolutely. I mean, I think that is absolutely at the core of everything because in any environment where you have bullying and you have bigotry, you have to, the only way to remove you have to you have to the only way to remove that is to have a call-out culture where people feel comfortable and know they are right to say something about it but of course again as a mum with my own son I'd be very nervous for him I don't want him to be in a position where he feels threatened or he feels that he's not being supported um that

would be something that would be very worrying um it's not an easy thing you don't want to be the person that stands up and says your colleagues are doing this that or the other but it has to start somewhere otherwise that continues on and the rot just keeps spreading and spreading. And also, worse still, the new intake who are coming in with all their high hopes, with all their ideas of what they want to do and how they want to do it, that will start to become infected. And that's, you know, where I think it has to be stopped really in a very, very clear way. I think officers who say and do the things that are in these reports need to be swept out fast. Well, there's a report today in The Guardian, which is claiming that one of the officers was actually promoted post these remarks. And now that they've come to light. So I don't know what your reaction is to

that, but I can see your face, Amanda. It doesn't look good. No, it's horror. It's horror because to me, a lot of this bullying and a lot of this behaviour is you can compare it to the playground. And what do you do with a bully in the playground? You don't give them the star of the week certificate. You have to talk to them. You have to try and change how they behave. In the case of an adult in the police, you move them on. What you don't do is move them up, I would have said, or you subject them, you make sure that they are involved in some sort of psychological assessment where they can talk to someone about how they behave and why they behave

like that, and really work out, is this person a bully through and through? Or are they someone that is very easily manipulated by other people, and just a sheep that follows a leader? George, what was your reaction when you saw or heard what those police officers have said? And of course, it's the latest in the line of some revelations about the police. It's really, really horrible because, I mean, I can't imagine really what it's like for any victims of that kind of culture.

But what I can imagine is what it's like for other police officers who are just trying to do the right thing um I think that the problem is is just like when you're driving and all the bad things happen the good things you don't remember the good things you just think of the bad things quite rightly in this situation but you know there's a lot of good police officers that don't get attention because they're just good how they should be. And they just want to not be spat at and not be hated. But, you know, above all, it's just really horrible to hear these kind of things. Policing should be something where, you know, you're proud to go into.

And when you tell your neighbours you're going to policing, it's like, well, you know, good for him. He's really helping society. But nowadays it doesn't feel like that. Yeah, I was going to say, do you feel that if you say to people, I want to be a police officer, do you think it's a good reaction or a bad reaction? I've actually, like, I've said it to multiple people. I don't talk about it a lot because it's not, unless I'm asked.

By a national radio station. But I guess there's always a kind of back feeling of distaste when I tell people. It's really weird. But it's just kind of back feeling of distaste when I tell people it's really weird. But it's just kind of like, oh, good for you. And it's not there's no kind of like he wants to do good. There's never that assumption, the assumption that there is no assumption because you don't know what someone's real intentions are. I think what my mum said about psychological assessment, we actually discussed this having a psychological assessment in the the job getting the job application stage would be I think would be beneficial as well so and that isn't part of or isn't part of it right now as you understand it so I am in the job

application process for a special constable which is a voluntary um it's a voluntary position yes but it's a good stepping stone to get into the police from there because you get all the experience, all the knowledge, everything. I don't know what's in the application process for the police for real jobs, but I know that my special constable application, there wasn't any psychological assessment. Amanda, have you tried to tell George not to do this have you have you had heated discussions or have you have you given into what he wants to do I wonder where you are now with this

yeah I've had heated discussions with myself actually on one hand the mum side is saying don't do it just don't do it go and find a nice job somewhere where you haven't you're not encountering all these problems on the other. There's the more sensible, rational side saying he is an adult and he needs to choose his own way. So I'm having a fight with myself, not with my son. And whatever he chooses to do, I will back him 100 percent. And I'll give him all the support that he needs. But, you know, there's a part of me would say how much easier life would be if he said, I want to go and do something, I don't know, work in a shop or something like that. You think that would make life very simple, really.

Amanda, it's good to talk to you. Thanks for getting in touch with the programme. George, thank you also for being such a good sport and talking to us at the beginning of your career. And anything that your mum said there that might make you think twice? She's my mother. I always listen to her advice. But, you know, I don't always take it. I don't always take it. Exactly. George and his mum Amanda there about his decision to go into the police, especially in the current climate.

And a couple of messages coming in off the back of that. Liz says, I'm listening to George and his mum. What an extremely impressive young man. Amanda should be very proud of him. I'm sure she is. If George is the future of our police force, then thank the Lord. But Patricia says, if I had one, I wouldn't want my daughter to date a police officer either.

Another one here from from an individual who said the unfortunately the training the police training is utterly different to reality police sat through training and then utterly ignored it even laughed at it and there's more of a message train coming in about this with regards to who would be a police officer how do you feel about it how it it can change. A message here around the change, I suppose, of the perception of police for some. Barbara says the police used to be respected members of community like doctors and lawyers. When I came to Britain 50 years ago, they were carefully selected, had to be of minimum height. The murder of a police

officer was a serious offence. Now our attitude has changed. They're the enemy in the plebs. The problem is in them against us and vice versa. I don't know how we came to this and I don't have the solutions. But recruitment is what Louise says. She says it's a recruitment issue. Young lads being given so much power and control, it can attract the wrong person, in my opinion. In my professional career, I've encountered this many times. Bad entitled attitudes now made worse by our pornified culture. I should say those text messages which I mentioned refer to an IOPC investigation at the Charing Cross police station. And of course, when contacting the Met yesterday, the statement that was put out was that the conduct of a team of officers

at Charing Cross police station in central London does not represent the values of the Metropolitan Police Service. We are deeply sorry to Londoners and everyone they have failed with their appalling conduct and acknowledge how this will damage trust and confidence of many in the Met. Since this reprehensible behaviour was uncovered in 2017, we've taken a series of measures to hold those responsible to account and stamp out unacceptable behaviour.

Well, talking of tough environments, talking of, I suppose, toxic cultures, as some would see it, my next guest is no stranger to either, having made documentaries about all sorts of things, from drug cartels to death row. But now Stacey Dooley is trying to crack open what she describes as Britain's mental health emergency in a new book called Are You Really OK? Stacey Dooley, good morning. Morning, Emma. How are you?

Well, that's the question, isn't it, in your book? Yes, are you really OK? I didn't even realise your book are you okay it's as if we planned it um I mean I suppose that that is a question we ask without thinking all the time right at the beginning of exchanges do we always get the right answer in terms of it matching how people feel well this is it isn't it I think you know we're all sort of trying to be quite pleasant and I have things are you okay you? You know, what have you been up to? But it can feel sort of quite flippant. And, you know, we're just trying to be polite. But actually, I think certainly the last couple of years, all of us have just had so much time to really pre-pandemic and post-pandemic. So yeah, really interesting, insightful, important conversations. Have you seen a difference pre and post-pandemic? Yeah, I mean, it was really interesting because I hung out with the HCA's, the healthcare

assistants and, you know, the psychiatrists, the psychologists, the nurses, working night troopers, as you'd imagine. But they were they were really clear they said Stace there were people with pre-existing conditions that have been poorly for a long time but there's this whole new wave that we've now got sort of approaching us essentially people that are kind of presenting for the first time and poorly with their mental health so yeah I suppose in terms of the book and the documentaries, because we made two films in that hospital, in an ideal world, we're sort of trying to chip away slowly at that stigma that does still exist. And there are preconceived ideas and there can be prejudices. So yeah, under no illusion that we're sort of going to drastically change the landscape

entirely. But you know, are you okay? How are you doing? Let's be candid. Let's talk. And in terms of some of the themes that you've looked at in the book, if you were to take gambling, for instance, you do talk to some of those who struggled. And minded to mention up to a million women, it was said in a report this week, are at risk of being harmed by gambling. This is according to a study. Although gambling addicts are disproportionately male, the number of women seeking treatment has doubled in the past five years but a great majority of them do not seek treatment this is according to the gambling charity gamble aware with two in five women unwilling to do so due to stigma and embarrassment because of course there's one thing saying we

don't talk about it there's another thing not going to seek treatment because you're so embarrassed and that's exactly it people wrong, some people wrongly feel shame and they don't want to, you know, they don't want to be a burden and they think, oh, everyone else has got so much going on. I think that shame does still exist and, you know, it is still sort of, I think it's always healthy to talk about things that you don't typically talk about, you know, whether that be gambling, whether that be, you know, poverty, whether that be race, whether that be, you know, your talk about you know whether that be gambling whether that be you know poverty

whether that be race whether that be you know your your gender you know and we kind of explore all of these really interesting complex um topics within each chapter I mean the book could have gone on and on and on you can imagine it's such a broad you know mental health is so broad uh so I really appreciate like we had so many people contribute to the conversation. I spent about 15 months in total, Emma, speaking to various different charities and NGOs. Was there a particular story that you could share with us, with our listeners this morning, that stuck out for you,

that not typified the issue, but if you're saying Britain's got a mental health emergency, what is one of those stories that stuck out in your mind? I think there's a really interesting chapter where we focus on postpartum psychosis and sort of goes without saying, you know, I've never been through anything like that. You know, I haven't ever had a child. But she was such a sweetheart. She was so generous with her time.

And she was a midwife and she lives up north and she's a midwife. And, you know, so perhaps you could assume that actually somebody like that who works within that field could be exempt. But she's quite the opposite. She knew that, you know, this went on and she knew that it was a possibility, of course, but you never think it's going to happen to you, right? And then, you know, she had a sort of fairly um typical pregnancy etc and then when her baby arrived she said she just felt like her entire world was unraveling in front of her eyes um and she's really descriptive and she really sort of you really imagine what she must have gone through because that's all you can do but you can really imagine she talks about when she

was in hospital she was hospitalized and she talks about believing that she was in a in a game show and you know she was sort of the lines were so blurry because of course that's her natural sort of working environment so she was a bit am I at work am I am I the patient and am I the professional you know everything was so distorted for her um and whilst you know I'm not suggesting for a second that recovery is straightforward i think often you know it's rarely linear but it is possible because actually she's in much much much more stable place now yeah well and also you know some listeners will have gone through that and and had that experience or supported someone who has and and even just hearing about it is

still i suppose important but coming away from the conversations, and obviously treatment can involve conversations, talking therapies and all of that, did you come to any conclusions about how to tackle this emergency and what you make of where we are with that? Because there is optimism at the beginning of the book. You talked to an individual called Sean who says, we're in a better place.

Yeah, he said, you know, as a society, we're in a better place yeah he said um you know as a society we are in a very different place I think he says there's a temptation to perhaps catastrophize because it can feel so overwhelming and so many people are struggling and how on earth are we going to get to grips with this but he says actually if you compare you know where we were sort of 20-30 years ago we are heading slowly in the right direction. And he, I mean, Dr. Sean, he is at the top of his game. And I feel, you know, I'm so delighted that he agreed to participate because I felt like I needed an authoritative voice at the top of the book because this isn't me saying, oh, you know, I'm this high of a knowledge.

You know, I know it all. I actually don't. I'm sort of handing the book over to the people who have lived experience. So we can just, you know, perhaps give people a platform that. I just, yeah, I think it's really important to care about stuff, even if it doesn't directly affect you. I wonder what you made of, I don't know if you've seen this, Joanna Lumley, of course, the actor and campaigner. She's spoken previously about having a breakdown in her 20s. She supports the mental health charity Mind. But in an interview this week, she says, quote, I have to say this is a horrible thing to say. But I think the mental

health thing is being overplayed at the moment because anybody who's even remotely sad says they've got mental problems. You go, this is what's being called human. When someone dies, you grieve that's human. That's what being human is. You're not mentally ill. And I think it's also awful to people who really are mentally ill or properly clinically depressed for everybody to say they've got to have some sort of special treatment. So she was trying to delineate with the progress that perhaps has been made between who actually has a mental health problem and who doesn't. What do you make of that, Stacey Dooling? I mean, I haven't spent any time with Joanna, so I don't know what she's been through. I think

she's perfectly placed to have an opinion because, as I said, she's't spent any time with Joanna, so I don't know what she's been through. I think she's perfectly placed to have an opinion because, as I said, she's got lived experience. But I don't know, I think we have to be careful if people are coming to us and saying, if we're encouraging people to be really open and then they're thinking, right, I'm in a comfy, I'm in a safe environment, I'm going to say what I think I'm going through.

I think whilst you need to explore what the situation could possibly be, you don't ever want to shut people down because then it might be that they go off and have these feelings in an isolated space. So, I mean, look, it's a complex kind of complicated, multifaceted topic, which is why, again, I'm so grateful that so many people contributed because it's about trying to understand something pretty enormous. Yes, and I wondered on that journey that you've taken with those people, have you thought about things in your own life perhaps differently as well? Because that's what can happen when you are looking into others. Of course, yeah, you go home, don't you? You spend 12, 14 hours a day in an environment that you weren't familiar with

and then you come home and you're so reflective. And I think that was the overriding kind of conclusion for me. It was like, this could really happen to any of us. You know, sometimes it's circumstance. Sometimes actually we talk about the genetics as well, if some people are more susceptible. So I think it's just about, again, without sounding sort of too earnest, I think it's about just being compassionate and trying to show empathy and just listening.

You know, I mean, just listening to what people are going through. By no means to say that these sorts of messages we're getting in this morning, we've asked, I've wanted to ask our listeners for their stories of morale boosting, that that could in any way go some way to some of these proper issues that you're talking about and looking into. But it is amazing, and I have to ask you, this is someone who wants Strictly Come Dancing, how much dancing and singing is coming up with people just needing to boost themselves. Do you still dance around the kitchen?

Is dancing still part of your life? Emma, I can't tell you. It brings me such joy. You have to do it one year is it brings me such joy you have to do it one year it brings me such joy I mean obviously I was kind of I was the cheesy cliche that fell for my dance partner so me and Kev I mean Kev is a brilliant dancer but to be honest with you he entertains me sort of four or five minutes in the morning and then he's like I'll stay so I've been doing it for four hours so there's a quick dance in the morning that's it it's a bit of a jig in the morning but yeah

unless it's being paid I can't keep him for any longer I'm just checking that's not a euphemism no it's actually dancing no no actually just paint the picture I love I love it time it described are we actually talking about you have a proper together or a bit of a freestyle is it coordinated it can get it depends what it depends what the playlist sounds like everything so it can be sort of very you know ballroom and let's get our frame and right we're in this or it can be you know little mix on in the background shout out you know all that kind of carry on but um i think it's really important to celebrate as well i think sometimes when you make serious documentaries or you write a serious book you know some people really want you to conform into that stereotype actually joy and escapism so blooming important i yeah i urge

everyone to act like a child well there you go are you really okay that's the name of the book and uh you've given us a bit of an insight into, of course, some of those stories, but also how you make yourself feel a bit more OK in the morning. I like that you do it in the morning as well. It's good to get it done. Again, no euphemisms. Understanding Britain's Mental Health Emergency by Stacey Dooley. Talking to Stacey Dooley there. Lovely to have you on the programme. We'll have a dance at some point, I hope. I'll see it. I'll have a dance. Thank you. dance at some point I hope there you go um Kate in Manchester I love this message before we speak to our morale boosters this morning in terms of our record-setting rowers she says I was once trudging home in the pouring rain after a 12-hour shift in a call centre I'd missed the bus and I'd

had about a mile to go I was soaked to the skin I was as miserable as I've ever been I thought well I can't get any wetter so I I started singing, singing in the rain and deliberately jumping in every puddle. I felt much better, got home quicker and had a hot bath and a cup of tea when I got there. Kate, I love that. What a picture. What a morale booster for yourself. Well, let's go to a spectacular sporting achievement, shall we? Two British rowers with absolutely zero rowing experience, still can't quite believe that, have smashed the world record for the fastest female pair

to row across the Atlantic. Best friends Jessica Oliver and Charlotte Harris rowed 3,000 miles west from the Canary Islands to Antigua as part of the Talisker Whiskey Atlantic Challenge. Their final time, 45 days, 7 hours and 25 minutes. Don't miss a minute. Every one of them counted, wiping five whole days off the previous female pairs world record. And I'm joined by them now, Jessica Oliver, Charlotte Harris, still in Antigua, very jealous of that. Welcome

to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you so much for having us. And Jessica, why don't I start with you? So you don't have to talk at the same time. It's a huge feat. Have you got to grips with it? Not at all. It's not sunk in at all. Oh my gosh, sorry, my voice has gone a bit. No, we completely haven't processed anything yet. I think we got off the boat maybe six days ago and it's just been a complete whirlwind. We're here with our friends and family. I don't think we've had a second together, Charlotte, just to think about what's gone on, who we are and what's happened.

But it feels amazing. And I know it's there in the background bubbling and I just can't wait to kind of really get into the weeds of it and to think about what we've done. Charlotte, is Jessica's voice hoarse because you've just been out partying ever since? Absolutely. I was going to say,

it's the reason we haven't been able to think. I mean, I think mine is just as hoarse. We actually said the post-row party is maybe harder than the row. We really have. We've gone to town. But I think needed, really, after 45 days on the boat with just us. Yeah. We've spoken to everybody in Antigua.

I was going to say, you row hard, you party hard. That's the rule. Exactly. We actually had that written on our cabin. Yeah, inside the cabin. One of it was like, the faster you row, the longer the party. So, yeah. the cabin one of it was like the faster you row the longer the party so we yeah you're practicing it what what prompted it Charlotte why did you think we've never rowed before let's go rowing so I actually worked for Diageo who owns Talisker and there was a guy

who was training for it and I thought you know if he can do it then I absolutely can too and then Jess is obviously my best friend 10 years and we've done challenges before we've done the um white collar fight club and once we did that we were like we need something bigger and better and I said enter Talisker Whiskey Atlantic Challenge Jess goes I wouldn't do that in a speedboat fast forward about two months and there we are signing up and and when we got involved I never believed that we'd get to this point where we smashed the world record. That was never in our sight, but unbelievable.

And Jessica, what do you do to train? Are you constantly on a rowing machine? Are you running? What are you doing? Well, so we actually started training during COVID, so we didn't have access to a gym. So I think Charlotte hired a rowing machine, but we actually worked with a guy called Gus Barton

who specialises in ocean rowing. So we did loads of different things, but we were training six times a week. And then obviously during the weekends, we'd get in the car and we'd drive down to Essex where we would train on the water. So it was all consuming for about two years. But I mean, again, so worth it. And what was it like on board? I mean, this is this is a key question. Charlotte, what snacks do you have? Oh, well, snacks, we ran out day 20, because me and Jess are binge eaters, can't have it in the house. If it's in the house, I can't, like, it's going to be gone. So by 20, imagine having 440,000 calories on board. We were like, what that is, is a challenge. So after day 20, it was genuinely

the Haribo, the Milkaer it was all gone I mean we literally cleaned our teeth and we thought that was we should be deserved a bar of chocolate afterwards so I think that was actually a bit difficult because I think by then we were robbing our future selves of snacks so I think day 40 it suddenly got a bit hard because we were like I can't just have another dehydrated meal I want my my Haribo. But there was none. So, yeah, we really did run out quickly. We actually really nearly ran out of food and other stuff for the whole time. We couldn't have been on the water, I think, for any longer. Like wipes, sun cream, food. I think I had five days worth of meals left.

That was it. So I don't know what we would have done, to be honest but we ate like well that's what hang on this makes sense mathematically you wiped five whole days off the previous female pairs record this because you had nothing left what we did basically yeah sensational planning is what i'm hearing but you know jessica there must have been um you know some some really difficult times doing this you know although you're great friends you obviously keep each other going laughing however many sweets and chocolates I imagine some of the weather conditions and also what was going on with with birds with sharks tell us a bit about that side of it do you know what there were some really difficult moments and it wasn't really the

kind of the big stories that you hear the fact that we capsized we crashed into another boat we saw a shark it was all of those things happened we should say as well all of those things happened and they were fine actually they were because you know your adrenaline kicks in and you just get through them so that's that's kind of fine and actually it was interesting listening to Stacey there because the real challenge was it was such a long endurance race and mentally it can be very difficult to understand that actually you're 20 days away you've done 25. You've got another 20 to go. And, you know, it's long and it's endurance. And sometimes you have self-doubt

and you don't know how you're going to get through it. And I think the real benefit to us and our team was the fact that we had each other, was the fact that we had such a strong team dynamic and we got each other through. And I think that was really important. And just to bring it back to what Stacey said about, you know, talking to each other and being open about, you know, what you're going through mentally.

I think that was a real, a real benefit to us on board. And having to, I suppose, do that while, to bring it back to you, Charlotte, you know, you are contending with, I don't know, I did read, tell me more, a bird flying in your face in the dark while you're rowing. So that was actually Jessica. I had a scream from the cabin and Jess I'll let you tell the story I don't know what to say it was it was pitch black and I was on the odds I was like I was kind of having the time of my life I was listening to the great music I was like this is the experience of a lifetime and suddenly a bird just flew in my face I didn't know what it was or where it came from I mean you're in the middle of the Atlantic you wouldn't expect to see a bird but anyway so yeah that was kind of a niche one. An encounter in the midst of this and

trying to keep the mental side of it going when the music got boring you resorted to a challenge of storytelling who did what? This is my favourite thing ever because actually and I'm going to give it to Charlotte this I said the scullery made in the 1800s and we were I mean I can't really remember it we must have been so bored but she came up with this story I remember being engrossed with this story but now we look back and I think it was really plagiarized I think it's plagiarized to be honest I think I'd seen something and I think I pulled it out but it's all about this scullery made he was like investigating a murder up at the manor it was an identical twin who'd ended up in the attic because like she'd killed the mother and it was and it just was like looking at me like where is this coming from I'm like I think it's a BBC drama Charlotte this is

Hollywood stuff right here so it's like brilliant I love it so so yeah but it was we needed the thing is the music did get really boring and then then I think on day 35, we actually lost Spotify, which it all started going wrong kind of like 10 days out from the end. That's when we capsized. That's when our autohelm, the water maker broke. We hit the other boat, lost the music, which we then, we had Apple Music and I think I had one playlist downloaded. And I was like, if I hear Katy Perry Firework one more time,

I'm going to throw myself on the board So resorting to making up stories or plagiarising BBC dramas became the way to get to the end of this So many people getting in touch with their morale boosting stories this morning and a lot of them consist of singing at the top of their voices or just talking to themselves

a lot of the time to get through. I was also thinking the fact I did my postgrad at Cardiff University and I messaged both of my housemates this morning with your story. My former housemates say, you know, we left 15 years ago or whatever it is now. We've done precisely nothing other than meet up and have some drinks and talk. So your story is shaming to all of us, really, who haven't done anything of the sort. You are across all of the papers today. There's wonderful photos of you.

What was the moment you actually realised you broke the record, Charlotte? Well, we never set out to break the world record at all. We were always like the success criteria was what we're going to get across. And then I think the first 10 days, we just went a bit mad. We were like on the oars, two up,

the whole time really going for it and then suddenly people start putting in our ear that you could get the world record and then that almost drove us I think all the way home also keeping up with the threes and fours because we obviously wanted to party I think once people started saying like that in our ear we just didn't really give up and then it was almost about wait a minute how much can we actually shave off of this time and then I think three days out we thought we were going to get maybe 44 days and we ended up going it was interesting actually once we thought we'd get 44 and we didn't think then we didn't realize that we were going to get it we almost came to get depressed we weren't going to get 44 days and then we have to like shake ourselves and say hang on a minute you're

going to shave five days why does it matter if it's five or six um but then once we were five minutes I think five minutes out from the finish line and boats actually started coming behind us and it was it was almost people came out turned around and started following us we started rowing even harder and I think that's when it said then it was this is real and we crossed that line and it was like we turned looked at each other and almost threw threw ourselves onto each other we were just like what have we just done and the reception was unbelievable it was I didn't it best M life peaked peaked I like it Charlotte Harris Jessica Oliver you still seem to be friends that's good well you know always good to come through that sort of thing intact um and I'm sure you've had a lot more snacks to boot and booze, it seems.

Congratulations on what a record and also some stories you'll have forever. And I'm sure we'll talk again because you're going to find something else to do. I can feel it. You're those types of people. All the best to you and for your journey home. A message here I wanted to share about morale boosting

inspired by our two rowers. Kate says, Emma, I remember doing my gold Duke of Edinburgh hike in Wales while at school. A few people in my team, Emma, I remember doing my Gold Duke of Edinburgh hike in Wales while at school. A few people in my team were struggling, but they said my singing helped. I sung the whole way up

a long, steep peak, mostly songs from Disney's Pocahontas on repeat. It really did boost morale. Smiley face there, best wishes. Kate, thank you for that. Well, of course, talking a little bit

about women and focus and how people setting setting themselves challenges, I think it's worth remembering some women right now are in a position or a process of just trying to access what they had been able to have only recently because some of Afghanistan's public universities reopened yesterday for the first time since the Taliban took over the country last August with female students joining their male counterparts heading back to classes. The Taliban administration has not officially announced its plan for female university students,

but education officials have said women were permitted to attend class on the condition that they were gender segregated. Girls are still not allowed to attend secondary schools, and women remain barred from many jobs outside the health and teaching sector. This is unfolding against a backdrop of a major humanitarian crisis. And to update us on some of the situation, certainly, I'm joined now by Fahzia Koufi, the former vice president of the National Assembly in Kabul and a women's rights activist. Welcome to the programme. Thank you for having me. What is your reaction to this news

that women are returning to universities in some form? We know that the Taliban announced universities to reopen in warmer parts of Afghanistan. They were very vague in their position and statement about girls' students of university returning to school. But certainly girls used that opportunity and went to attend university yesterday despite all the security challenge and despite the fact that the Taliban were vague. But now the challenge remains the fact that women cannot work. So even if a girl is educated with all the challenges of security, safety,

you know, and the poverty, she is not able to go to work. So what is the benefit of educating a woman if she is not able to work? So it's a good step, but there are still valid concerns about women's work and about the fact that the Taliban might use this as a tactic of getting more international legitimacy. So I was going to say, is any of this linked to a need for aid and for support for the Taliban?

Well, aid is something that should always continue to Afghanistan. We just need to be alerted that it does not actually empower them. And there are some reports also from some parts of Afghanistan that aid are being used by Taliban to their own people, but not to the needy people. We need to avoid that through a mechanism of oversight that the U.N. should work on, because the U.N. is now the coordinating organization on the ground in Afghanistan for humanitarian crisis and humanitarian aid. But when it comes to Taliban's legitimacy, I think, unfortunately, women of Afghanistan have always been, their issue have always been weaponized and used.

And this is what Taliban do. They think that that way they could get more legitimacy, while we know that the CRICOLA has been amended. The CRICOLA is more radicalized than the concerns about the girl's safety, the arrest of the woman's protesters, that they have been arrested and disappeared. We don't know where they are, the concerns about women not being able to work. And the fact that, you know, Taliban finally listened to the women of Afghanistan signals out the importance of the fact that women are part of that, that transformed Afghanistan and Taliban have come to this realization. You think they have or that you think that they should? What I say is that the Taliban now did not stop girls

from going to university yesterday, which is a major message to the women that they need to continue their struggle because that is going to make an impact, both from a national point of view, but also from an international point of view. The fact that the Taliban did not stop women from going to school and, I mean, going to university, it means that they are afraid of women voices.

And they know that if they do anything to the girls' schools, to the girls' university, to the girls who go to university, they will face major consequences. That being said, I must say that the number of girls who went yesterday were very, very little, but it's a positive step. It's a positive step. And of course, you refer to it there, in case our listeners aren't aware, women are protesting. Some women are protesting.

There are protests. And as you mentioned, some are being arrested, some are being disappeared. We don't know to where. But that is also part of the dynamic of what's going on. What is the latest on getting girls back into schools, so not just women back into universities? Well, just briefly on the women protest. I mean, we know that the situation is extremely unsafe for women in Afghanistan. So even if the numbers are small, but those small numbers actually protest with their life costs. And we know that including today, which just as I'm talking to you, a doctor was arrested from her clinic by Taliban, who was part of the protest. We know that now

they have started going house to house and collecting those women who were part of the protest. We don't know where they take them. There is no accountability. Probably this happens in the rest of the world. I don't know. But given the Taliban's background and history, it is alarming. It is alarming and it can suppress women's movement and freedom and political activism and social activism. About girls' education, the Taliban have promised that they will let girls on the 23rd of March, which is the beginning of the new year, education year, to go to school.

But in the meantime, I'm hearing that the Taliban have worked on the curricula to make it more radicalized and make it according to their definition within the Islamic principles. Now, I don't know, maybe that curricula will look at the Taliban curricula, ideology of Taliban incorporated into that, which is in many occasions in contradiction with actual Islam. Having a radicalized curricula for girls' education means, you know, the girls will be trained basically on issues that is not going to help the country, but rather on issues that is empowering the Taliban's ideology. We know that the Taliban's major enemy is girls' education

and they do everything to dominate that. Well, it's important to hear this update and also stay with this. So thank you for giving us those insights and the latest on this and some insight of how women are trying to use their voices in Afghanistan at the moment and how that's being received. Fazia Koufi, former vice president of the National Assembly in Kabul and a women's rights activist there. Well, to come to perhaps how we look at women in the past and perhaps with fresh eyes, certainly with some of the lenses we now have, you know the rhyme, divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. The first woman to lose her head

at the hands of Henry VIII was Anne Boleyn. Her story so often characterised by that tragic outcome. Have we overlooked the fact that she was a feminist and ahead of her time? That's the view of Dr Owen Emerson who has curated a new exhibition at Hever Hall, Anne's Childhood Home. It's called Becoming Anne, Connections, Culture, Court.

But can she be seen as a feminist when the word hadn't even been invented? I'm joined now by Owen and Tracey Borman, the Tudor historian, chief curator at the Historic Royal Palaces and author of an upcoming book on Elizabeth I and Anne Boleyn. I think, Owen, I'm going to ask you to make your pitch, first of all, for this new light that we perhaps should see Anne Boleyn in. Hello there. Well, you're absolutely right. Feminism wasn't a word in the 16th century, so that might seem very problematic. And it's often said that Anne Boleyn is ahead of her time. But I think she's a product of her time. So I would champion her as a proto-feminist, shall we say. She grows up amongst

many 16th century debates challenging patriarchal structures. She grows up amongst matriarchs in her own family, and is educated amongst very powerful women in European courts who act as regents. And I think we can't ignore the fact that Anne Boleyn says no to Henry VIII when he wants her to be his mistress. She asks for a ring and a crown instead, and plays a really important role in solving Henry VIII's great matter. She's exercising power and her agency here. So I think even if she only achieves power for herself, we should see that achievement as a result of a culture of proto-feminism, shall we say. Proto-feminism, Tracey. How does this fit

with your view of Anne Boleyn and what you know of her? It very much chimes with my view. And I think the reason that Anne Boleyn is the most popular of the six wives is because she's the most relatable. She is seen as a thoroughly modern woman and way ahead of her time, as Owen says. But actually, yeah, there were these influences at the time and they had shaped Anne, particularly during her youth, which she spent in France, surrounded by all these great kind of female intellectuals. But I think a lot of it was to do with Anne's character as well. She was feisty. She was outspoken. She wasn't prepared just to be one of Henry VIII's mistresses. She was holding out for the much greater prize of being queen. And she courted huge controversy and hostility for that.

And it's only now, sort of five centuries later, that we all love her. We all think she's the most amazing of the six. And I'm glad we do. I think, though, that view, I mean, there are examples, aren't there? Tell us about the prayer book and the vernacular and what she was doing with that, Tracy. Well, absolutely. Anne was passionate about religious reform and also firmly believed that the word of God should reach all people, not just sort of through the lips of priests who with their Latin incantations, that the Bible should be available in English. This was quite radical. It was actually quite dangerous to hold that view at the time that Anne was

expressing it. The likes of Tyndale had translated the Bible, but it was very much sort of on the black market. You wouldn't really boast about having a copy or even being in favour of that. So Anne took great risks for her faith. And she was hugely influential on Henry VIII, who admittedly saw the political expediency of going down this route because it enabled him to get his annulment from Catherine of Aragon. But it particularly inspired Anne's daughter, Elizabeth, who very firmly established the new kind of Protestant faith when she became queen. Owen, are there other examples in Anne's life that have also made you think about this while preparing this exhibition? Yeah, absolutely. I definitely think, you know, if we look at the European courts that she is being educated in, she's being exposed to really radical ideas,

not least the religious reform that Tracy has just spoken about. If we look, for example, in the libraries of Margaret of Austria, she has really radical books written by people like Christine de Pizan, who is overtly lambasting men for portraying women as chattels and seductresses and, you know, critiquing patriarchal structures that are oppressing women. One of my favourite quotes of hers was a woman with a mind is fit for any task. And I think Anne really picks up on this and excels in that vein. Although I know you say that both of you, team Anne here, strong team Anne Boleyn representation. But she does end up losing her head, Tracey, you know, regardless of how feelings may have changed or certainly, you know,

views of her may have got more nuanced. How does that end up happening to a woman who's trying to have some power and agency? Well, you know, sadly, at the end of the day, Anne is judged not for her intellect or her religious beliefs, but for that most basic womanly function, as it was seen in 16th century society, producing a male heir. So she's judged by her body, not by her mind. And her body fails her, if you like. We don't tend to talk about the fact Henry VIII played a part in this, but Anne is blamed for the fact that they couldn't have a healthy son and heir together. And they just had a useless girl called Elizabeth. What good could possibly come of her? Henry VIII already had a daughter, Mary.

So I do think Anne, even though, of course, it was her downfall that she couldn't give Henry a son, she kind of had the last laugh. She gave him by far the most successful of all his heirs. And because of that, do you think through Elizabeth, through her daughter, that also led to a reappraisal? Absolutely. She was rehabilitated in Elizabeth's lifetime. That's when we see most of the portraits of Anne that we still recognise today, very much resembling Elizabeth. Her kind of religious views found full expression. And Elizabeth became the queen that Anne wanted to be.

She was the absolute triumph of her mother. And this idea, though, that, and I'll come back to you in just a moment, Owen, but just staying with you, Tracy, the idea that you have to, you don't have to, but that it is a trend to try and see people as feminists now who that word wasn't available to them now, sort of proto-feminists, as Owen put it. Do you think that's necessary? There'll be some listening thinking, well, we don't need to recast her.

No, I think it's just interesting to sort of interpret it through a modern kind of phrase like feminism so that we kind of get to the heart of what Anne was about. Perhaps it's not helpful to use the word feminism, but I think it really does neatly encapsulate what Anne was about. Perhaps it's not helpful to use the word feminism, but I think it really does neatly encapsulate what Anne was about. And I think as well, as Owen rightly says, she wasn't so much ahead of her time as a product of her time. And perhaps we need to see that more and not just focus on how downtrodden women were in Tudor times. Actually, there was a whole other set of women who were challenging the social conventions and Anne was at the forefront of those. Owen, I think Tracey's saved it there for you, in case you needed a woman to do that. Definitely so, yeah, absolutely. Just a word on the exhibition,

is it right to opening on the 500th anniversary of Anne's first recorded appearance at the English court? It is, yeah. It's launching on the 4th of March. And yeah, this is 500 years since Anne arrives at Henry's court at an amazing pageant called the Chateau Vert, the Green Castle pageant. And it's an electric event. And we're using it as an opportunity to really look at what made Anne the woman she was, what ingredients went in to make Anne Boleyn this iconic woman. So, yeah, it's a really exciting opportunity. At the childhood home? Yeah, at Hever Castle, which is in Kent, her amazingly beautiful childhood home where so much of this history played out. So it's a dream come true really.

It's called Becoming Anne, Connections, Culture and Court. You've made your case, we'll see if our listeners agree I'm sure some messages will come in with just a couple of minutes left of the programme but Dr Owen Emerson who curated that, thank you to you and Tracey Borman, thank you to you of course the Tudor historian and chief curator

at the Historic Royal Palaces and someone who should know a thing or two about Elizabeth I and her mother because she has a book coming out about that. And I'm sure we'll talk again, Tracy Borman there. Many messages have come in though throughout the whole programme and actually going right back to the start because it was a message that began our first discussion. An email came in yesterday from a woman called Amanda

about her son George planning on joining the police. And they talked to me at the beginning of the programme about their different perspectives. Patricia says, I'm listening to the programme. It's a woman's hour and her mother is talking about her son joining the police next year. I've gone through the exact same thought process with the added layer that my daughter will have misogyny to deal with. And she has applied to join the Met. Exactly like Amanda, I was worried about her on the beat. I pride myself to always filter out sensationalist media headlines,

but it is the way the police higher command have dealt with these allegations which has horrified me. I'm worried for her in the force now as opposed to what she will have to deal with outside the force. We do need a zero tolerance attitude. I'm exploring other roles outside police that may tempt her. The irony is that she is now hesitating to join because she's now spoken to two female officers who admitted they couldn't

bring themselves to encourage her to start a policing career. Having told her since she was little how she can do anything she wants that a man can do, I now don't believe it. That's from Patricia, a very powerful message indeed. Another one here from Isabel who says, I want to add that my sister joined the police two years ago. All her colleagues that I've encountered are fine examples of young people. My sister now works with vulnerable children and their families and has made a huge impact on improving lives. Mary says, my brother was just like George, idealistic, wanting to make positive change and commit to a promising career in the police. He joined the force with a first class degree in criminology and placed on response

where he remained for six years. He was heralded for bravery in 2019, winning an award being celebrated at Downing Street. But unfortunately, many of his colleagues were cynical, bitter and sly. The institutional lack of decency amongst many of them and many seniors and underhand decisions and actions led to him having a full mental breakdown in 2021, for which he received no support from the police and was in fact demonised. He's making a recovery now, out of his job,

but his experience will forever haunt him. Not a job I want to see my sons go into. Huge response again, and mixed at that. We're all the better for it, though. Thank you for your company. We're back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. My name's Jonathan Myerson, and I wrote and directed Nuremberg, the new scripted podcast from BBC Radio 4. My father was a lawyer, and he worked with several

of the British prosecutors who'd been at Nuremberg. So I grew up taking this huge trial for granted, the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. With 6 million murdered and 10 million enslaved, how could these men not have faced justice? But it wasn't until I started researching that I discovered it very nearly didn't happen. In the end, verdicts were delivered and sentences were carried out. But was it justice or was it vengeance? Subscribe to Nuremberg on BBC Sounds and you can make up your own mind. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.