Woman's Hour - Standing Up For Your Mate, Victoria Cilliers, Black Businesswomen

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

Would you stand up for your mate if she was being discriminated against? Would you stick up for her, even if it caused you problems? Today we discuss how to be a good ally. Whether it’s racism, sexism or homophobia what’s the best way to speak up and support your friends? We're joined by Chloe Laws from Glamour Magazine, Richie Brave who presents Brave Conversations on BBC 1Xtra, and Danielle Dash who's a freelance writer.Victoria Cilliers’ story made headlines in 2015. We heard how her husband tried to kill her by tampering with her parachute. Against all odds, she survived. After two trials, and the world’s press scrutinising their relationship, he was sentenced to 18 years on two counts of attempted murder. Now she's written a book called 'I Survived'. We chat to two Black businesswomen about their successes and challenges. They share their advice about setting up your own business. They are Rose Adkins Hulse, Founder & CEO of ScreenHits TV and Shalom Lloyd, Founder & MD of Naturally Tribal.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast, Friday the 7th of August 2020. Hi there, good morning. Today, the next in our series of how-to guides. This morning we talk about how you can be a good ally. And we'll also discuss women of colour in British business, what it's like to start up a business, how much help do you get,

is it significantly harder to raise funds if you don't look like the typical British business person. At BBC Women's Hour is where you'll find us on social media and you can email the programme via the website any time you like. Our first guest this morning is Victoria Silias. And, Victoria, good morning to you. Thank you very much for coming on. How are you today?

Yeah, good, thanks. Good. It's brilliant to be able to talk to you. Your story will be quite familiar, I think, to many people listening. It made headlines, your story, back in 2015, when it emerged that your husband had tried to kill you by tampering with your parachute. Now, obviously,

you survived, thank goodness. There were two trials, and in the end, he was sentenced to 18 years in prison on two counts of attempted murder. You've written about this extraordinary series of events in a book called I Survived, appropriately. I just think, first of all, Victoria, it's worth just hearing a little bit about you and your life. You were a physiotherapist in the British Army, an experienced skydiver, an intelligent woman, somebody, I'm sure, who never thought she would be the victim of anything like this.

Is that fair? Yes, completely. It happened in such a subtle way over the years i think by the end i just couldn't see the wood for the trees but i hope by telling my story um it demonstrates that you know whatever your background upbringing everyone can be caught up in a coercive relationship well we'll go on to talk about that, but I just think it's worth saying that many of us will hear the headlines, see the headlines, and there's always a temptation to make judgments

and to make a decision about the kind of person you are or were. But what your story reveals, very, very painfully actually, is that it could be any one of us. This really could happen to anyone. Yes. Do you remember the very first time you met the man who went on to be your husband? I'd seen him around at work and gradually got to know him

and very quickly we became good friends. He was a very dynamic, enthusiastic personality that drew you in right from the off. This was in the British Army, wasn't it? He was in the British Army at the time and indeed you were also working there. Was there anything about you that might have made him think you were vulnerable? Initially, not necessarily, because my work persona I do come across fairly confident. I think as he got to know me, it was obvious that I was recently separated from my first husband and I was struggling to come to terms with the end of that marriage. And was that something that he talked about with you?

Yes, yes he understood what had gone on behind the scenes of that marriage and how it had upset me that someone had cheated on me and how it had come at a time in my life when I was keen to settle down, have a family and all that had been taken away. And he seemed to be a safe place, somebody that you could rely on. There was something about him that made you feel that you'd be all right with him. Yes, he just came across very strong and competent and capable. He was a bit like a knight in shining armour. Yeah, OK, well, that's how he cast himself. Did any of your friends raise concerns about him?

Not initially. As the relationship progressed over the years, a couple of friends, one in particular, noticed the changes in me and was aware of some of the money issues I'd had or concerns with him and also his fidelity. But by that point, I was so drawn in and I was pregnant with my son that I almost dismissed it or didn't want to believe it. And he always had good reasons to explain why these things had gone on or these suspicions had arisen. Even before you married, I think there were what you might now regard with the benefit, the wonderful benefit of hindsight, as warning signs.

There was the money. He did take money from your accounts, didn't he? Yes, he did. And did he attempt to explain it at the time? How much did you ask him about all that? It was something that cropped up on an increasingly irregular basis. He always had excuses. It was fraud. He'd contacted the banks and they were investigating. But whenever I tried to contact the banks,

they never had any recollection of it. Initially, he made the money back and paid me back. But that diminished over the years. And as you say, when you were pregnant, it really was. It simply wasn't a time when you felt you could do anything, even if you wanted to. So were you simply compartmentalizing your doubts about him and just plowing on yes I was basically avoiding confronting him because with a toddler and a baby or a baby on the way I felt incredibly vulnerable I was well aware there was massive

cracks in the marriage but I wanted to at least get through the first six months and then address the issues. So can you take us back to the day when you did the jump? We should say that you were a very experienced skydiver. This was something you'd done, you'd loved doing it, you were very good at it. In fact, you were teaching other people how to do it, weren't you? Yes, I'd done thousands of jumps. Which, by the way i mean please own your courage there that is a quite extraordinary well to be able to do that victoria

i don't think i think people like you who do this don't appreciate that it is one of the most terrifying things i could ever imagine but this was something you had sought out and become extremely good at it's very addictive oh i'll take your word for it okay so um very soon after you'd given birth um for the second time that that's right isn't it your your husband arranged a jump it was initially for both of you um how did you feel about it um jumping that soon after having a baby wasn't anything out of the ordinary because I'd done the same with my daughter but I was just excited that he wanted to do something with the two of us together I thought maybe the birth of my son had sort of instigated a feeling of family in him

that he was considering me really on the day he couldn't do it because he said he couldn't arrange child care so yes what happened when you did the jump just tell us about what the jump was supposed to be like and then what actually happened? It was meant to be just a jump on my own just getting back into the air and see how I felt about it because I had some reservations about jumping after having two children um just there's more responsibility when you've got children and it was a long day because it kept getting put off for wind rain etc and when I got in we knew it was only going to be a low jump and I just felt completely out of sorts I wasn't happy I was in tears in the plane which would never normally happen um yeah that split second when you leave the aircraft it's just a wonderful feeling and then pulling the parachute and it all went dreadfully wrong

from there but because of your skill set you were able to deal with the situation, weren't you? I tried to manage the situation as best I could. But this is you falling through the air at great speed, presumably, from a height of...? 3,000 feet. So you're spinning quite violently and the focus is just on slowing down the spin trying to gain as much control as possible

because I was very aware at the back of my mind that I've got a baby and a toddler at home so failure wasn't an option I just had to try and reduce the spin as much as I could And you did, which is why you're talking to me now. Yes. What happened afterwards? What was the atmosphere like between you and your husband at the time?

After the accident, he came to see you in hospital. Awkward. And, dare I say it, I felt guilty. I felt incredibly guilty that now he had even more work to do because he had to look after the children as well as the house and work. And I just added to it, I felt a bit like an inconvenience. And that stayed with me the whole time I was in hospital. Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to let those words just sink in. What had happened the week before that there'd been a, well, what we now know wasn't an accidental gas leak at home?

Yes. And he, one evening, said he had to be on duty, therefore had to go back to the barracks the night before. He didn't leave until i'd given the baby his night feed and i i stayed upstairs to go to sleep he went down he said he's going to make a cup of coffee and then leave which wasn't anything out of the ordinary but he was downstairs a long time and i could hear tinkering but when you got a newborn, you don't really want to get out of bed when you've got the opportunity to sleep. Went downstairs the next morning to get the children's milk and could smell gas. And that was something he'd also, he'd done, he'd fiddled with the gas supply in the house, hadn't he? Yes.

Which is why he is now serving 18 years on two counts of attempted murder. He'd also, he'd done, he'd fiddled with the gas supply in the house, hadn't he? Yes. Which is why he is now serving 18 years on two counts of attempted murder. But there was quite a gap between your terrible accident and the police coming around to tell you that they believed your husband was responsible. What was that incredible moment like when the police had to tell you this? I felt a thunderstruck. It's just, you feel like everything just drains out of you. Absolutely stunned. But again, also that feeling of guilt.

He's really going to hate me now, even though i hadn't contacted the police um i couldn't see any way shape or form how he could have been involved in something that sinister and yes he had issues with money and fidelity etc but murder no that's a whole different level and i just wanted to talk to him and reassure him, you know, there's nothing to do with me. But we were allowed no contact. Yes. There's a terrible irony there. The person you most wanted to talk to at this time was the person you wanted to confide in, in a peculiar way, was the very person who had caused you all that trouble. Yes.

When you look back, and I can hear you almost expressing amazement yourself as you speak, at your thought processes of the time, do you think of yourself then as just a completely different person? Yes, I think over the few years I was with him, it just changed. It's very subtle. And actually writing the book and having it all chronologically laid out in front of me made it a lot more obvious. But over the years, it creeps up on you. And I just became this person who just lacked confidence. Second guessed everything I said to him.guessed everything I said to him,

tailored what I said to him because I didn't want to upset him. He even attempted to keep up control of you when he was in prison and after he'd been sentenced even. Yes. And I went to see him initially because I had so many questions I wanted to ask and get answers to police had warned me that I probably wouldn't and they were right but I was still very caught up in it all I was writing to him he wrote back but gradually he wanted me to come and visit more and more. I wasn't writing enough. And it just became too much.

And after the sentencing, it all started to become clearer in my mind that actually I had been a victim of emotional manipulation and I had been a victim of attempted murder. And I needed to separate myself completely from him. Which you have now done. Yes. Your children, they're very young. I was going to say mercifully. I guess that is, it is a mercy.

They're only very young still. Yes. And have you told them? I think your elder child is perhaps old enough to begin to understand do they know about this yes i told them after the second trial's verdict because she'd been asking where he was and why she couldn't speak to him or see him and given that she can read i thought it was easier just to tell her the truth, that he had tried to kill me by tampering with my parachute.

And she knew about the parachute accident, or incident. And actually, they've both taken it on board very well. She rarely asks now about how old she's going to be when he comes out. They're quite matter of fact about it only time will tell what sort of impact it's had on them emotionally as they grow up but i'm hoping if they're growing up in a loving and secure environment i'll keep the impact to a minimum well i know that you you write very movingly of the support you had from your dad and um and his partner they sound absolutely brilliant i hope very i really do hope you have a strong circle of friends around you now but

yes i do i'm very lucky well that's brilliant um in terms of of your your trust in other people what would you say about what that's done to you i'm a lot more wary, especially of new people in my life. So new friends, male or female, are quite wary about their reasons for becoming my friend. I think I'll never 100% ever trust someone. The focus has to be on keeping myself safe and supported and the children. This man has robbed you of so much, not least robbed you of the person you were,

because I go back to the skydiving and your bravery and your career. How on earth do you view all this when you think about what's happened to you? It's almost like a period of my life that was a different person and I've managed to draw a line under it certainly career-wise I've moved onwards and upwards. Sporting-wise I think skydiving is not a sport that's easy when you've got young children. But I'm not going to rule it out for the future when they're older. You honestly would do that again, would you?

Possibly. I did it once as a charity jump. Since what happened, you've already done it again? I did a charity jump for the Wiltshire Air Ambulance about two years ago. OK. You say that as though it's it's not very much it's an incredible thing that you've done that Victoria um it was scary I'll give it that the understatement is phenomenal um Victoria I'm so sorry that I haven't been able to meet you um in more ordinary times we would be able to do this interview in person. I think you are truly remarkable and I'm very grateful to you for talking to us.

Thank you very, very much. And I really appreciate the courage it's taken just to talk about it and write about it, nevermind live through it. Thank you very much indeed and the very best of luck to you and to your children in the future. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for having me on. It's a great opportunity to talk to somebody so interesting. Thank you very much. Victoria Silius, who just wants to make the point, as she was very clear there, don't make judgments. This could happen to anyone.

Her book about her experience is called I Survived. Now, next week on the programme, we're talking about femtech start-ups. We're going to talk about women in business in a moment or two as well. And also another in our how-to series, how to manage conflict better on the programme next week.

Now, this summer saw the first ever Black Pound Day in the UK. The idea, to celebrate black owned businesses and give the black business community an emotional and a financial boost. Rose Adkins-Hulse is the founder and CEO of Screen Hits TV. And Shalom Lloyd is the founder and MD of Naturally Tribal,

a former judge and now board member at the Black Women in Business Awards, who describes the barriers. They're going to describe the barriers they've faced, their successes, and give you some advice as well on setting up on your own, if that's what you're of a mind to do in what are, let's face it, pretty challenging times right now. Rose and Shalom, welcome to the programme. Good morning to you both. How are you?

Morning, Jane. Fine, thank you. How are you? I'm well, thank you. And let's get going then with Rose, first of all, if you don't mind. Tell us a little bit about where you started and where you are now in business terms. Yes, good morning, Jane. I started in Los Angeles, California, where I'm originally from, in the media industry. I started ScreenHits TV about 2012, eight years ago. Yep. Go on. And so now we actually are launching a new product called

Screen Hits TV, which is an aggregator for content that lets people take all their different streaming apps from Netflix to Amazon to Disney Plus and put them all in one place so they don't have to open up one app and go to another. And this idea came about 18 months ago, because my business originally started off as a B2B marketplace where we were helping to monetize content. And when we were talking to some of our customers, Disney, as an example, they were no longer using the platform in the same way. And were you going to say something? No, carry on. Okay. It's so difficult when we can't see each other, but you carry on. That was just one of my involuntary noises.

Don't think anything of it. And so we were, I was, you know, here at the company, we were trying to figure out, you know, the industry's changing. And Disney said, you know, we're not going to be licensing our content so much internationally. We're going to be keeping that content in-house because we would be creating a streaming platform. And platform is um now disney plus and we heard this from a number of our customers so it kind of put us in a situation of you know how are we going to change

and stay relevant to our okay now i am going to say something i mean basically you had to you had to change pretty swiftly didn't you otherwise you were going to be outmaneuvered and just not much use anymore 100 yes and i guess that's the difficult thing, isn't it? And Shalom, what about you? Because in business, you've got to be prepared to make change and make it quickly. Oh, absolutely. Being nimble is very important, Jane. My company started due to a need. I never intended to start a skincare company at all. I'm a pharmacist and worked in drug development for the past 24 years here in the UK. And after going through four cycles of IVF, I finally had my twins and any woman out there, shout out to all the women who've gone through IVF. No, it's not an easy thing to go through. But I got my twins. Unfortunately, one of my twins was born with

eczema and he was scratched till he bled. And I was just desperate to find something that would work for him naturally as opposed to steroids, which was not sustainable. And that's really how my company started, Naturally Tribal Skin Care. So in your case, it was a personal experience that drove you on. Very, very, very personal. Yeah. OK, how is he now? He is good. When I came across the Eureka formula, that was exactly what changed the whole dynamic for me. And like a bad mother would, I let him flare up over again. And I tried it and it worked.

And for me, I'm really proud of what, you know, trying to use natural remedies to soothe something that, skin disease is a huge disability worldwide, right? One in five children suffer from eczema, costing our NHS over 700 million per annum. So looking for a natural remedy became an obsession for me. Yeah. Okay.

When you wanted to get funding, Shalom, we'll talk to Rose about this in a second as well, but what is it like as a woman of colour to go out there and look for backing um it's interesting jane because for me i i grew up i went to the former soviet union in russia i was educated in russia when they when i was 16 and i stood out like a sore thumb was a black woman in the former soviet union in the 80s i mean that to be honest with you that's worth a whole interview on its own it really is carry on and know, when you are used to, as a young girl, I got used to the word abyssinian,

which is monkey. That's something I heard every day. That kind of builds a thick skin resilience. When I came back to the UK in the sort of mid to late 90s, I came back with toughness, resilience, confidence. I don't think anything could have shifted me. I felt like I had a voice to sit at the table. So for me, when I started my business, when I worked my way up through leadership roles in the pharmaceutical industry, I didn't think anything could stop me. So when I started my business, first of all, you had the pre-seed funding phase where my husband and I remortgaged, had confidence in the product, in the business. And even when we went to secure a loan, it was really very confident about that. So I haven't had necessarily any issues in getting funding because why should I?

Well, why should you except that I might suspect that you would have issues? Yes, and I'm not taking away from the fact that as a black woman, of course, there will be issues. But I think it's all about how we see it ourselves and how we break those ceilings. I went out there, I still pitch till today, knowing that I have a solid product, I have the confidence, I have the know-how, I have the experience to be able to put a great product out there. So those challenges are there and I'm not taking them away. But I think that it's all about breaking them and having confidence that we can actually break that glass ceiling. OK, Rose, in the States, I imagine CEO probably, well, when I think of a CEO in America, and I guess in Britain,

I think of a white man, perhaps my age, probably called something like Rupert or James or Gavin or something along those lines. Yeah. And in the States, what was it like when you got going? You know, I was raised in a situation where I was raised by two very successful parents and I grew up in that environment. And so I did get opportunities to work, you know, in politics or in the media space. And so I got my foot in the door very early on. But I have to say it was quite challenging to go above a director role. Those roles of vice president and executive VP were just not available. I was never being groomed to take over and run a big studio one day.

Those opportunities were just never brought to me. And they were never brought to you. OK, but did you challenge it? I did challenge it because at the time I just felt if I just work really hard and I have the most successful department, I do everything to elevate myself and to shine, then I will get that opportunity. But actually, it became more negative. It actually made other people feel, you know, she's making us look bad. You know, we're bringing in, you know, 20 million. She's just done 100 million within, you know, a few months of working at this company. And so I had to deal with politics within a big studio world that I wasn't really capable of handling at that time, because my focus has always been on just being the best that you can be. And so I felt that my wings were constantly being clipped. You do need resilience. I think that's pretty obvious. What other qualities do you think either of you or both of you that women really need right now

in these incredibly difficult economic circumstances? Shalom, what advice would you give? What qualities do you think are needed? I would say it's really confidence, tenacity, persistence. For me, my mantra is start by doing what's necessary and then do what's possible before you know you've conquered the impossible. So having the confidence and knowing that we have a voice. So you do need the resilience, the persistence, but also courage and passion are critical. Yes. So believe in the product or the service. Absolutely.

But believe in yourself first. Okay. Belief in oneself is very, very important. And then in what you have to offer. Yeah. Life has to treat you well enough for you to be able to believe in yourself, doesn't it? Oh, it certainly does, Jane. But everybody has a story. And we all have a long list of obstacles and barriers that we face. And I'm not taking that away from, you know, but life, we have to keep living. And I think that having that, I found my voice at 40. So I'm talking like this wasn't as if I was always a confident person.

You know, it took me to the age of 40 to get to my take me as I am state, as I call it. What happened at 40? I don't know. I don't know if it was having children at an older age or starting my business. I just got to that point where I was take me as I am or don't take me at all. Yeah. OK. And yeah, Rose. Yeah, I would say that like, no, for me, it doesn't really mean anything. I think that, you know, I you need to just find a way around those. And I think it was because of that I was able to decide to go and create a tech company in the media space where there's not a lot of people that look like me. And despite not being able to raise funding, I appreciate Shalon had a different experience, but I had a very different experience.

Did you? In what sense? I had a lot of high net worth individuals that was primarily through friends and family that supported ScreenHits and supported the company throughout the past eight years. And they believed in me and they encouraged me every step of the way. But when it came to the VCs, I knew I had a great product. Sorry, that means just that's venture capitalists. Venture capitalists, right. And just again, I'm not always certain what they do. What do they offer apart from cash?

What do they offer? Or is it just pure cash? They have the power to actually help companies scale and grow. So a lot of these big companies that you see from Uber to Facebook to Spotify, they all had venture capital funding because they can inject hundreds of millions of dollars into a company and it gives it a significant advantage over any other company, especially in the tech space. So it is very important. And when I started out with the B2B platform, every single VC you can imagine wanted

a meeting with us. They had multiple meetings with us. The way that they treated me in the room, despite however amazing the product was, they would always say, well, if you hit these milestones or these milestones, we will support you. But they didn't. And then it would always come back. We don't really believe in this product. We don't really see it working in the marketplace. But then yet they went and spent 20 million dollars with a competitor who didn't have a product even developed. Right. You see, yeah. And that is something that, to put it mildly, would irk me. Do you think that's still happening, Rose? Oh, this happened. I mean, when I read about this two years ago, I called up Aeneas, who's been

involved with Screen Hits from the beginning. And I just said, you know, because he was with me at a lot of those meetings. And I don't even think he as an English person really put two and two together. And then eventually just said, let's just not go to VCs anymore. But when I called him, I just said, this is just unbelievable. So when it proved my product was great. Yeah. I had to look at myself and say, what is it about me that I'm doing wrong? So is it possible that Britain is slightly more open than the States in this respect?

Well, this was in Britain. This was in Britain. Oh, forgive me. Right. Well, that's depressing. OK, Shalom. Yeah, I think I don't I don't want to give the impression that I didn't have any challenges or any obstacles about, you know, being a black woman looking for funding or going out there seeking funding. I think the point I was trying to make was actually not taking no for an answer and keep knocking on those doors until the door was opened. I know that as a black woman, I do have to work a lot harder than my other counterparts. And that's something that you're raised with. And that's something that comes at second nature.

But I still strongly believe that with the confidence and the best product that we will get there. But I think what's happening today is even raising more awareness, Jane, of what's going on, raising more awareness about the obstacles that we're facing. So don't want to give the impression that it's smooth sailing, but I think it's a personal thing as well. Yeah. OK. Thank you both very much. I hope people have learned a thing or two from that. Shalom Lloyd, founder and MD of Naturally Tribal. And before that, you also heard from Rose Adkins-Hulse, the founder and CEO of Screen Hits TV, which is an app. Now, let's go to another in our series of how to practical conversations today. How to be a good ally, whether it's racism or sexism or homophobia or any other form of discrimination.

What is the best way to speak out and support the people it affects? Chloe Laws is the social media editor at Glamour magazine UK and the founder of F Girls Club, an online feminist magazine. Chloe, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Good morning. Richie Brave is here too, freelance presenter, host of Brave Conversations on One Extra. Hi, Richie. Good morning, Jane. And Danielle Dash is a freelance cultural and TV writer.

Danielle, welcome. Good to talk to you again. How are you? I'm fine, thank you, Jane. Good morning. Good morning to all of you. Right, let's get going. Danielle, when have you been able to be a good ally, do you think?

I was writing an interview, my first ever byline in Teen Vogue, and I interviewed the writer of a book. And I was so proud of it and posted it and didn't think anything of it. It was a story about a young woman who couldn't leave the house. And eventually she did leave the house um because of medical issues and I was just so proud and then I started getting a lot of disabled people in my mention saying why didn't you ask the writer about the ableism and I was like ableism like she seems able-bodied to me like what what is this and I went after it got quite intense I went and spoke to a friend of mine who is disabled and I was like what what is this and I went after it got quite intense I went and spoke to a friend of mine who is disabled and I was like what is going on and she explained to me that it's a trope with

disabled people that as soon as they can live their lives like able-bodied people they will be living full lives and I was so ashamed as somebody who's very proud of the work that I do, uplifting people who are more marginalized than I am. And I just spent like a day going back through the comments and apologizing to everybody and saying that I would do better. And it was a really hard lesson for me because I think your pride and your ego gets in the way. But my feelings are not more valuable than their lived experience. Right. And that's that's the heart of all this, actually, isn't it? Richie, as you're a black man who is heterosexual. So where do you do your best work in terms of being a good ally, would you say?

I think it's I think allyship is just something that you have to live essentially my best work is it's really hard to explain i think being an ally to my closest friends i think that's where it starts and also using the social media platforms i have as well and i think that's the importance of allyship is using any platform you have to de-center your voice and amplify the voices of people who are less heard and you know you were talking about people being allies you know Danielle when she first remembered being an ally and the first time I remember being an ally was at 13 years of age and you know my best friend who is a was a girl at the time went through quite a serious assault and she was judged

based on what she was wearing and her personality and all these kind of things. And, you know, I used my voice to stick up for her. And I think it's just continued ever since then, to be honest. And what about your male friends now in terms of misogyny? What can you do about that? You need to have a zero tolerance rule. I mean, for me, I don't have any tolerance for misogyny whatsoever. And I think as men, you're inducted into patriarchy, there's this violent induction that happens to you during childhood, and you need to spend your life dismantling that. And I think, you know, when we look at misogyny, there's a lot of men who are allies or see themselves as allies who get and this is why I don't label myself as a feminist, because I don't want to take up space. If a woman

wants to afford that label to me, that's fine fine but it's not a label I take for myself but actually it's it's about not with my friends even my friends who are people who are quite involved in this kind of stuff and aware of this sort of stuff it's about calling them out when they feel complacent you can never be complacent in this the learning is forever and what just like Danielle was saying just when you think you know, you realise that you don't know and you have to relearn. OK, Chloe, you are a white woman. You're also bisexual. And you where do you think you have needed an ally actually in your own life? I think in my own life, I haven't had one standout point where I've needed

an ally I think I have been lucky enough to surround myself with very liberal people and I think in London it's very easy to fall into this echo chamber where the people around you reflect your own experiences I've definitely been fetishized and everything like that but as a white woman I haven't felt this discrimination and oppression as, you know, any person of colour has. So, and also being bisexual, it does afford you the luxury of being able to present as heterosexual in everyday life in a lot of places.

It's not obvious. Well, and that's just easier. That's just plain easier. Yeah, it's just easier. And I think it's often just a conversation that I don't have. Right. OK. But there's no question that in terms of discrimination, and you've written about this, Chloe,

the heavy lifting cannot be done only by those who are actually getting discriminated against. It has to be done by the rest of us. Yeah, 100%. I think the whole crux of being a good ally is recognizing your privilege and understanding how you've benefited from that systemic oppression of others and you have to make a commitment to amplify voices of the oppressed before your own and you have to use your privilege to take action because you're going to have seats at tables that

other people won't and at that seat you then have to call out bad behaviour or racism or sexism. And it's really just taking the onus away from the people that are being marginalised that hasn't been working and they need our support. And for any significant change to happen, it really does have to be a group effort. Yeah. Danielle, do you get tired of feeling an obligation to speak out? Sometimes I do, especially when it's about race, something that's so personal to me. There is a fatigue that happens for me. But when I'm speaking out on behalf of other people who do not share my privilege even though I am black a woman and queer and there are people who are more marginalized than me and for their purposes and their safety and protection I never get tired of doing that work and it is work it's an active participation in continuously decolonizing your mind to the ways in which society isn't built to protect these people who

need protection the most. Richie? Yeah, I mean, just to echo what Danielle was saying, I think when it comes to race, just because it's a direct lived experience, and there's a real violence that is embedded into racism and your experience as a black person in Britain that makes me tired but essentially there's real I get real joy in feeling like I'm doing something to dismantle some oppressive structures in society without using too many buzzwords I think we can get caught up in those sometimes but essentially it's doing the work and actually you know I'm not a father but I've got godchildren I've got nieces I've got nephews you know um I'm a a father, but I've got godchildren. I've got nieces. I've got nephews. You know, I'm a member of society. I just feel like we all have an obligation to do something to make sure that society is better for everybody.

So there's an element of tiredness, yes, that comes with it. But essentially, you know, even my job was activism. I did 10 years working in domestic abuse perpetrator groups, which essentially was feminism based. So for me, it's something that's just been embedded into my day to day life, to be honest. Well, and in that environment, talking to the perpetrators, what can you tell us about how they explain themselves? I think there is a spectrum of people. So I think sometimes when people exhibit certain types of behaviour, there's an expectation that this kind of person does this kind of behavior. But actually, there are a spectrum of things in terms of why

people do what they're doing. And that's why I spoke about the violence of being inducted into misogyny and patriarchy. And I think there are messages that reinforce these ideologies all around us. And I think for a lot of men, they go into relationships with particular expectations. And when those expectations aren't met, and these are the expectations that have been set down by society, they react with violence, or they react with abuse. And abuse just isn't physical. It's also emotional. And it's also spiritual abuse as well. Danielle, do you ever feel that new prejudice is just around the corner, that things are actually far from improving?

Things might be getting worse? I think as we continue to shine a light on the ways in which people have intersecting identities that push them out into the fringes. I was watching Disclosure, the amazing documentary on Netflix, and they were speaking about the ways in which trans representation has meant more violence for them as much as it is about like amplifying their voices. So I think that it might just be as bad as it's been, but I think the more that we continue having these conversations about the ways in which you know violence and um

does everyday discrimination affects people that we will in the next 10 to 15 years which feels like such a long time but when you look at the work that's being done it feels to me achievable i'm very optimistic good oh good no i'm listening i'm glad to hear it and chloe really the the only option that isn't worth taking up is doing and saying nothing. That's not going to get us anywhere, is it? Definitely. And you just, you know, you can't be complacent and it's not enough to just say you're not racist, you're not homophobic anymore. You have to be actively anti those things. And just, you know, sharing online is brilliant. And I think we've kind of fallen into this social media activist phase and that is really important but you have to do the work in your

everyday life as well and you have to speak up when you're in public and someone's being discriminated against if it's safe to do so and you have to call out your family and friends it starts at home and they're the easiest people to influence yeah well that that's certainly true anyone can like a tweet can't? That takes a nanosecond. Chloe, thank you very much indeed for talking to us. Chloe Laws, Richie Brave and Danielle Dash. And any thoughts on that, you can email the programme via our website. Looking forward to the emails,

which we'll include in the podcast a little later. Chloe Laws, Danielle Dash and Richie Brave on Woman's Hour this morning. And that went down very well with a listener called Anne, who says, just heard that interview with the three young people, Danielle and Chloe and Richie. All really inspiring, but particular praise for Richie. I am a working class white feminist from South London, and I was just so impressed and heartened by what Richie said. Please give him my best wishes and solidarity. He gives me hope for our future. Well, there you go.

It's always nice to have a little bit of positivity on the programme and a positive reaction as well to what you've heard. Sarah says, your introduction to the subject of black women in business itself sounded racist. You said at one point, what seems like a typical business person, as if black women stroke people are not typical business women stroke people. That's where the problems start, our language or the language we use in describing black people. We need to review and change the way

we describe blackness. Well, I take that. It's always really difficult to get this right, of course. When I said what seems like a typical business person, and of course I can't remember exactly how I worded it because it was at least half an hour ago now, I probably meant that we, and it is true, we don't think of people of colour, black people, as being typical business people. And I'm choosing my words carefully here because we do ask guests how they would like to be described.

Some guests want to be called black because that's what they are. Other people say I'd rather be called somebody of colour. And I don't think it's up to it was certainly not up to me to tell people how they want to be described. They've got to tell us. So it's it's territory where we have to be very careful. I absolutely take that. And I also I'm very, very happy to acknowledge criticism. I think it's absolutely right that we do. We've all got to start to get this right so that everybody is happy with how they are described. But honestly, you can email the programme and express more than disquiet. And I'm very happy to read out criticism. I think we should and we'll continue to do it. A listener who wants to be anonymous says, I heard the story about Victoria Silius describing her relationship. I was lucky, lucky, in that my partner was rather less inventive in his physical attacks upon me and I was able to go to the police. What struck me about Victoria was her description of how the relationship evolved. I too was considered a feisty, confident person in my work and my friendships, and

yet he was able to eat away at my self-confidence for years. So much so that when we finally separated, my sister said it was like getting her real sister back after 20 years. He was also able to manipulate outsiders who were charged with investigating what had happened. In particular, what Victoria said about consciously adapting everything you say and do to what you think his reaction will be struck a chord with me. You put so much effort into this that you don't realise it's not normal in a loving relationship. And also, unfortunately, the fact that it makes it very difficult to ever fully trust anybody ever again.

When you have fought so hard for your survival and independence and to give your children a stable and fulfilling life, you're very wary of giving space to someone who might just take that all away. Many people imagine it's only weak, unstable women who get into this sort of relationship. So thank you very much for highlighting it is very, very far from the truth.

And my thanks to Victoria for being so brave and speaking with such honesty about her own situation. We will keep that correspondent anonymous, but thank you, I know your name. Sorry, excuse me. I know your name and Sorry, excuse me. I know your name and I'm very grateful to you for being willing to take part. We would go on longer, but in the interest of transparency,

we're going to lose the studio and I've got an interview to do. So I've got to go. I've just got to go. Thanks to everybody who took part today, particularly Victoria, who obviously was one of those unforgettable interviewees. I'm away next week. Jenny is here. I'm sure you'll enjoy the programmes. I hope it doesn't get too hot.

It's 28 Celsius already in central London. So pray for us, all of us, particularly middle-aged women at this time of heating crisis. Right, Jenny's here tomorrow. No, she isn't. She's here on Monday. I'm doing Weekend Woman's Hour, which will be tomorrow afternoon, four o'clock.

Take care. From the one village behind the mountain. here on Monday. I'm doing Weekend Woman's Hour, which will be tomorrow afternoon, four o'clock. Take care. And then someone takes your child, disappears into the night with your little girl, and you can't stay silent any longer. And you'll do whatever it takes. Travel thousands of miles across the globe to find your missing daughter. This is my child. I look after this child like tigers. Just go everywhere. Join me, Sue Mitchell, for this gripping new BBC Radio 4 podcast series.

Subscribe to Girl Taken on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.