Woman's Hour - Stella Creasy, Libby Scott and her mum Kym on Autism, Sexual Harassment

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

The Labour and Cooperative MP Stella Creasy is threatening legal action over her forthcoming maternity leave cover. Backbench MPs are currently allowed to take informal maternity leave, but not all their duties are covered during their absence. For instance they can employ office staff to help with constituency issues Ms Creasy says she’s currently only being offered two thirds of her salary to employ a suitable replacement but she says that won’t cover important tasks like meeting Ministers, media work or doing school visits. Also a replacement is unable to speak in the House of Commons or attend parliamentary committees. Ms Creasy has said: "I think every woman should be able to have paid maternity cover, proper cover - it's not just about being paid, it's that somebody else will be doing that job.”She may just be 13 years old but Libby Scott has just released her third novel ‘Ways to Be Me’ in collaboration with the author Rebecca Westcott. Along with the hugely successful Can You See Me? and Do you Know Me?, the three novels feature the story of Tally who is autistic. The books have been widely praised for their realistic portrayal of autism. Although not autobiographical Tally’s story is partly based on Libby’s own experiences of being autistic herself. This latest one - a prequel to Can You See Me? - goes back in time to the period just before she gets a diagnosis age 10. Libby and her mum Kym join Chloe.A humanitarian ceasefire has just been called but since November last year the fighting between the Tigray People's Liberation Front (TPLF) and government forces in Ethiopia has left thousands of people dead. More than two million have been displaced and 350,000 pushed towards famine. There are reports of women who were kidnapped by soldiers and held as sexual slaves. Chloe discusses the situation with BBC Africa Correspondent in Nairobi - Vivienne Nunis and Rita Kahsay, co-ordinator of the Tigray Youth Network based in the UK.Fertility clinics in the UK are removing an unsafe number of eggs from women hoping to have IVF, according to a new study. Looking at data from UK fertility clinics between 2015 and 2018, researchers found that some were retrieving far too many eggs from women, reporting cases of up to 50 eggs being removed in a single procedure. The ideal 'safe yield' is around 12 eggs. Chloe Tilley discusses the implications with Joyce Harper, Professor of Reproductive Science at the Institute of Women's health at UCL, and the author of Your Fertile Years. As we know travellers are obliged to quarantine in a hotel at their own cost after returning from countries on the UK's red list, where Covid infection rates are high. They spend 10 nights in their room and are allowed out for daily exercise only when accompanied by a guard. Private security companies have been hired by the government to ensure hotel guests observe quarantine rules. Kathy Godolphin had a disturbing experience saying she experienced sexual harassment at a hotel after returning from working on a conservation and anti-poaching project in Zimbabwe. She joins Chloe Tilley to discuss the aftermath of that ten days.Presented by Chloe Tilley Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good to have your company on this Wednesday morning. Now, how easy is it to get maternity cover for your job? Well, it seems if you're an MP, it's pretty difficult. Labour's Stella Creasy is threatening legal action because there's no system in place to bring in a replacement to fulfil all of her role. She says either her baby or her constituents will miss out. We'll hear more from her next.

Now at 13, Libby Scott has written three books about an autistic girl, which are in part based on her lived experiences. She's dropping in with her mum to tell us about her latest book and how her main character Tally has helped gain her some confidence. Plus women undergoing IVF treatment at some British clinics are having what's been described as far too many eggs retrieved in one go. Researchers found that up to 50 eggs were being retrieved in a single procedure at some clinics far above the recommended safe range of 8 to 15. So this morning I'd like to hear your experiences of IVF. If you've undergone egg retrieval, how many eggs were taken in a single procedure?

Did you ever question the number? You can text us now on 84844. Texts are going to be charged at your standard message rate. Also, you can contact us via social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, taking large numbers of eggs does present risks of developing rare ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome that can lead to hospitalisation or even death. So were

you told about the risks when you undertook IVF? Did you feel you were properly consulted at a time when let's be honest couples are on such an emotional journey to have a family and then of course there are the ethical issues surrounding the unused eggs. So you can email me now with your experiences through the Women's Hour website. And we're also, towards the end of the programme, going to be joined by a woman who says she was sexually harassed by security guards while forced to quarantine for 10 days in a hotel after she came back to Britain from a red list country. She says other women have contacted her since with similar experiences. But let's begin by speaking to the Labour MP Stella Creasy, who is threatening legal

action over her forthcoming maternity leave cover. Now, backbench MPs are currently allowed to take informal maternity leave. They get full pay while they do so, but there's currently no provision for a replacement to do their actual job while they're away. Now, when her first baby was born two years ago, Stella Creasy negotiated with the IPSA, that's the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, which regulates and administers MP staffing costs. And she managed to get a locum in to do her role. Now, this time round, she says the salary that they're suggesting, she won't be able to get a suitable replacement. I'm pleased to say that Stella is with us now. Good morning. Hi there, Chloe. So, you're going to get a full salary whilst on maternity leave, which is clearly

great news for you. The challenge here is getting somebody to do your job in your absence. Just explain what is being offered to you currently. Well, so so like the Attorney General who is currently on maternity leave, I think it's brilliant that she has her full salary and she has like-for-like cover for her role so she can properly take time off to be with her baby, which is what maternity cover is meant to be. In any other role, we would rightly expect to be able to give women the time to be with their babies, to make sure, especially if you're breastfeeding a new baby, it's a lot of work, I know from my first child. Unfortunately, the parliamentary authorities have decided this time around that I can't have a locum.

They're very clear it can't be somebody who is called a locum and they won't pay them to do that role. Now, let me take on some of the arguments that people will put up, because this isn't about somebody who goes and sits on the green benches. My first locum didn't do that. It's about all the other work that MPs do. My first locum met with ministers on behalf of constituents. She went on media to talk about campaigns that we were running. She worked with my office to go to local community events. It meant that nobody was saying, well, hang on a minute.

I want to see the MP because they knew there was somebody covering all of those other aspects of the role. And the concept of a locum is a very well-established term within local communities. We have local locum GPs, for example, locum teachers. Nobody's saying that that person gets swapped in. What happens is they cover for that person. That's what's missing for backbenchers. So we now have that system for cabinet ministers. And I just fear that if the place that makes the law on maternity law accepts a situation where we don't follow and uphold the law, which says that you're supposed

to provide appropriate cover, and we indeed have a two-tier system so that maternity cover is connected to whether you are promoted, it's a senior, it's a perk of the job, rather than a right because you are pregnant. We're setting a very poor standard for employers across the country at a time when we know that thousands of pregnant women have experienced discrimination and indeed redundancy during the pandemic. So I want Parliament to uphold the laws that we ask employers to uphold and to make sure that there is appropriate like-for-like cover so that my constituents have somebody with both the status and the salary to represent them.

I can go and speak in Parliament on the green benches on a keep-in-touch day, but the person doing my role doesn't need to see their salary docked because of the result of that. We wouldn't accept that in any other workplace. Why do we accept it in the place that makes the laws on workplaces? But it's a decent amount of money that is being offered by the IPSA. They're saying that it would be £35,000 for covering for seven months. I mean, you could hire a good candidate for that, couldn't you? Well, so what they're doing is benchmarking it, not the role of an MP,

because they haven't actually got a job description for an MP, which is why the Taxpayers Alliance have been so concerned about this decision. I'm asking for somebody to cover my role. It's not just about doing casework and answering the hundreds of queries I get every single day about parking or bin collection or what's happening. Sorry, Stella, just to be clear, forgive me for jumping in because I just want to be clear on this. And I'm sure everyone listening wants to be clear on this. Couldn't you employ somebody for £35,000 for seven months to do exactly what you're asking? They're just not called a locum. And actually, would your constituents mind as long as they're doing the work that you would be doing?

Yes, people do mind. They want to know they're seeing somebody with the status and the seniority. Look, when a teacher is replaced, nobody would accept just having the teaching assistant for the following six months from the parents or the kids. They want somebody who has the status. Why do I have to ask somebody to do a role where they're supposed to cover for me without the status to be able to do that role, without being able or indeed being paid fairly for it? I had a fantastic locum for my first pregnancy and people in Walthamstow accepted her and she worked very well. She worked at a very senior level, but she was underpaid. Why do we expect half-hearted measures? Why is it that a cabinet minister can have somebody paid at

the same rate because we recognize an important role and i i listened to the prime minister saying it wasn't fair for women to be told to either choose between their careers or having babies that we needed to have appropriate maternity cover for cabinet ministers but not backbenchers why are my constituents short-changed i had to ask somebody to pretend to be something that the parliamentary authorities have been very clear will not be appropriate maternity cover. This person will still have to report to me. I will still get asked to be brought into things. That isn't cover. That isn't me actually being able to recover. They haven't even covered the first two weeks of maternity leave, which is actually illegal to make a woman work. And I know this matters because in my first maternity cover,

I was asked by the parliamentary authorities to go into parliament and sign in during those first two weeks, because otherwise I would have lost my seat. Parliament needs to be in the 21st century. These are issues most workplaces are dealing with on a day to day basis. Most employers, this is why lots of trade union general secretaries, lots of women's groups and lots of employers have said to me, well, this is crazy. We wouldn't be allowed to do this. Why is doing it so in a short changing women in an ideal world you would like someone to be paid the same amount called an mp but who would that person be i want them to be a locum the last time i appreciate that but what i mean is have the status of an mp so a locum mp but who would that person be that could come in for seven months?

Well, last time round, because I was able to put the job forward myself, I advertised, I had an open selection process and I found a fantastic candidate. She was so good, I think, frankly, the people of Walthamstow would rather she stayed than I came back. There are lots of women out there. And the other thing I would say about this is it's not rocket science why there aren't that many women of childbearing age in our public life. It's the behaviours and the policies like this that make it too difficult to juggle, too difficult to be able to do the

things that you want to be able to do, to be a good mum and to be a good representative. If we can do it in business, if we can say in business, of course, this is not about me as an elected person. This is about all the other work that we do as MPs being covered. Then we can do it in the parliamentary system. We have to stop treating women like they're difficult because they have babies, rather than recognising that we need our politics to be open to all of them. And I'm appealing to the parliamentary authorities because, frankly, as you can hear, I'm very unwell. I've developed gestational diabetes. it's likely that I'm going to have to give birth a lot sooner I've literally just been discharged from hospital because I've

been having problems with my pregnancy it's probably too late because of the time it's taken them to come back and say no that there's some constitution even though we don't have a constitution in this country crisis about having somebody cover my role but they have responsibilities to equality they have responsibilities to equality. They have responsibilities under the public sector equality's duty. And there'll be women out there listening to this who would make brilliant MPs, but might be also thinking of starting a family. They need Parliament to be on their side. They need Parliament to be a good employer. They need Parliament to give them appropriate cover so they can take actual maternity leave. So as my colleague

Tulip Sadiq was doing casework, three days after she'd had a cesarean section, because there wasn't anybody who her constituents would accept as her alternative, because there wasn't anybody with the status or the salary to match them. Let me read you the statement which we've got from the IPSA. It says, as office holders rather than employees, MPs continue to receive their full salary regardless of absence.

In addition, the IAPSA will provide funding for an additional member of staff to carry out the parts of the role that an unelected person can fulfil on behalf of the MP. This is now up to £60,000 pro rata on top of the existing staffing budget, an increase of £10,000 over the previous amount. Elected MPs are able to attend the chamber, engage in debates, ask oral questions of ministers and vote in Parliament. It is up to Parliament to decide if the law should be changed so that an unelected person can undertake these duties when an MP can't be there.

Neither the IPSA nor Parliament recognise the term locum MP. Constitutionally, no-one can take the full roles and responsibilities of a Member of Parliament who is an office holder elected by the general public i can see that you're you're shaking your head there i mean i i guess the question is what happens next you're talking about this they can't have it both ways can they chloe they can't say you can appoint a staff member on two thirds the salary of an mp so paying them less than they're being paid to do the role but this person can't represent you it's a mess and it's a mess that we wouldn't allow in any other employment industry. And as I say, when thousands of women are facing discrimination in pregnancy, go and look at

pregnant and screwed and all the different problems they have, then we've got to stand up for the values and for the laws that we're asking other employers take on. And I just say this, if it's good enough for cabinet members, why isn't it good enough for my constituents in Walthamstow to have appropriate cover? That's the principle that we're asking Parliament to uphold. If I'm an officeholder, not an employee, why do I have PYA tax exemptions? This is crazy. This is not the 21st century happening in Parliament. And I'm pleading with the parliamentary authorities not to exclude women from our politics by making it so complicated, by talking about a constitution that we don't have, but ignoring their public sector equality duties, which we do have and are written into law.

I'm very pleased to have the support of Mishkan Durer and the Doughty Street Chambers to challenge all of this, because I think this is my second baby. And as you can tell, with the problems I've had, I won't be doing this again. But I know of thousands of brilliant women out there in our country who would make fantastic political representatives, and they deserve better. This is not good enough. This is not what would happen in any other employment role. This is what the real world's saying to Parliament, saying, well, hang on a minute, the concept of maternity cover is perfectly well established. I can go in and speak on a keep in touch day, but my locum that I appointed previously filled all those other gaps

and allowed me to be with my first child. Why is my second child going to be denied that opportunity? Because they can't understand two and a half years later that the lack of women in public life isn't an issue that they have to ignore. It's an issue they have to address. I want to ask you a couple of other issues about a couple of other issues before we let you go and i am grateful for your time today because i know that you have been you have been unwell over the last few days so i am grateful to you um you will have seen a lot of reporting in recent days about the violence on the campaign trail in in the batley and spen by-election which is taking place tomorrow in west yorkshire i mean there's been reports of people being attacked during canvassing people being punched kicks there have been fake letters distributed.

And there's claims that some people within the community are trying to stoke up divisions there. This, of course, is a constituency where Jo Cox was murdered back in 2016. I mean, I don't want to get into the specifics of what's happening in Batley and Spen. But as a female MP today in 2021, how vulnerable do you feel? I think we have all seen and we've all experienced the abuse, the harassment, the disproportionate attacks, particularly on our colleagues of women of colour. I think of Diane Abbott's experiences, for example.

And I think what we're all very worried about is people seem to think this is just online. Actually, this is offline, too. I've had people screaming and shouting at me in the street when I've been with my children, when they've been with their children. We're normalising a culture where you scream and shout first and ask questions later. I want to pay testimony to Kim Ledbetter, who maintained an incredible grace under the abuse and harassment that she was facing, but she shouldn't have to. We shouldn't make it that women going into politics face all these additional barriers. We should be make it that women going into politics face all these additional barriers. We should be putting our eye firmly and squarely on those people committing

these instances, holding some account. I've had experience in my own constituency of being harassed by people who didn't agree with my views on abortion. The police did nothing. I'd like to see the police taking a really tough line on this, because it's not about whether women are vulnerable. It's about the fact that there are people who think this is acceptable. They need to be stopped. Stella, thank you for answering on that. And obviously, if you want to see a full list of all the candidates standing in the Batley and Swen by-election tomorrow, you can go online and find it on the BBC website. Stella Creasy, thank you for your time this morning. We've had a tweet in here from Liam saying, often when MPs hold surgeries,

they're not there and counsellors sit in for them. I actually think MPs should be doing job shares and then there would be no problem. If you want to get in touch with us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, at 13 years old, Libby Scott has just released her third novel, Ways to Be Me,

in collaboration with the author Rebecca Westcott. Now, along with a hugely successful Can You See Me? and Do You Know Me? the three novels feature the story of Tally, who's autistic. Now, the books have been widely praised for their realistic portrayal of autism. Now, although not autobiographical, Tally's story is partly based on Libby's own experiences

of being autistic herself. And this latest one is a prequel to Can You See Me and goes back in time to the period just before she gets a diagnosis when she's age 10. I'm delighted to say that Libby's here with me in the studio and Kim thank you so much and I was saying it's so exciting to have people actually in the studio so I appreciate you coming in this morning. Libby just tell me first of all tell me about writing. Have you always enjoyed writing is it something that you've always wanted to do well yeah I didn't see it as being like you know

like the subject of my life like back in primary and stuff because like I'd always be interested in writing like my own adventure stories and things like that. Like, since reception, I've enjoyed, like, the creative side of, like, of learning. And, like, I'd always be praised by teachers for my, like, my own, like, stories and stuff. And, yeah, and then in year six, that's when I wrote my first book. Which is, I mean, no mean feat, Mum, is it? And you started tweeting it out, didn't you, Kim?

And did you expect to get the reaction that you got? No, because although Libby liked writing a bit at home, she didn't do very much and she hadn't for a long time. So when I came home one day and she'd written this lovely piece when her grandmother was staying, I thought I'd put it out on Twitter, knowing that I've got a lot of teacher friends there that might give it some nice feedback and it might inspire Libby to do some more and it was just shocking to see it going viral um we stayed up through the night watching

it going through the countries um and yeah we got so much positive feedback that that was what led to Scholastic approaching us about the book. Well, I was saying to you earlier on Libby, before we came on air, my 12 year old daughter has read both of your books and absolutely loves them. And she was talking about how it really helped her understand the world from the point of view of someone who is autistic, because that can sometimes be a challenge, can't it? I mean, tell me a little bit about Tally, your character in the book. So she's much like any other girl, really. She has her days where she's really happy and funny and energetic, but she also has her down days of maybe being a bit more demand-avoidant or a bit more sort of not feeling as confident,

a bit more self-conscious about, like, maybe even about her autism. Maybe she feels a bit less, yeah, like, confident in herself on some days too. You talk about demand avoidance. That's something that I know that Tally has, and you write about it in the book. So pathological demand avoidance. Many people listening might not know what that is. So just explain it to us. So it's sort of not having a choice on whether you

feel you can do a demand that someone's like expecting of you sometimes um maybe neurotypical people wouldn't actually see as a things that they wouldn't actually see as a demand maybe they might just see it as an everyday expectation but to um to some autistic people obviously not every autistic person has this has pathological demand avoidance but um it's sort of feeling that you can't do something expected of you not like you won't not like it's an you know an active refusal of someone asking you to do something but it's actually like feeling that you can't do it and you're like incapable of actually doing it can you give us an example of something that that might be so it can be and it's something as simple as like

well anything really like what do you think mom sometimes when she was younger it would just be putting your shoes on to go out somewhere. Yeah, things like that, anything like that. So it would actually... This is something that can be quite difficult to understand, but even if I wanted to go somewhere, when I was younger, if I was about six or seven, and my mum would say,

right, we're going to the we're going to to the cinema or something like that and she'd say right um go and put your shoes on now we're gonna go and I just like just no would come out of me and um but back then my mum didn't know that I I was autistic um but I just sort of know and I'm like wait why am I even saying no I say it to myself but and then I just demand I'd be like no no I'm not, wait, why am I even saying no? I say it to myself, but then I just demand it. I'd be like, no, no, I'm not. But it's actually something that I would like to do, to go there. But it's the way that someone asks me to do it is, you know, that affects the whole thing. And how does that affect life?

I mean, I'm thinking about things like school and stuff like that. I mean, the way people speak to you I guess is important yeah definitely like like the most important thing to me is tone and approach because even the way something is said even if the wording is the same even though if the way someone says something is more softer that can like open a gateway to me actually doing the thing but if it's saying quite a harsh and like abrupt tone then that's more likely that I'm gonna sort of freeze up and just be like no which is perfectly understandable to be honest isn't it it's about we should all be a bit more polite in the way that we speak to each other I know one of the things that you write about as

well Libby is a list of things that that Tally likes and doesn't like and I know that that in some ways your life can be a bit like that can't there's certain things that that you feel uncomfortable with I think am I right seams on socks yeah like random things like that like um the sensory side for me is quite um is quite like drastic because like for example the like even like labels in a top but I actually find that when I'm having more of a stressed day a label or something in my shoe or something like that I feel it more and I've only really discovered that more recently like if I'm having more of a stressful day when I'm'm a bit more on edge, that affects me more, and I'll be like, I'll be like, really stressed out,

and that can actually affect my mood as well, if I have something like that, that's making me uncomfortable, but actually for me, touch is my worst, like, so like that, for example,

seams and labels and things like that, but, but things like sounds loud noises which might affect um other autistic people that's not as bad for me it used to be back when I was in year six you know if like an ambulance would come past they would really like stress me out but now I'm a lot better with that like things like really loud motorbikes and stuff, they don't affect me as much anymore. And, you know, other things like that, lights that might affect other autistic people as well, that's not an issue for me, which, like, I'm grateful for

because I'm not as affected by things like that as other people might be. I know that in your books, Tally gets diagnosed at 10 and was it a similar age for you yeah it was I was diagnosed as 10 at 10 um and I was actually quite relieved when I was diagnosed because it was kind of like the questions I had asking myself why am I like this why am I like this it sort of it cleared it cleared up, I suppose, because I didn't really, I was like, why am I different, do you know what I mean, why am I, why am I like this, I'm sure other people aren't like this, and because I found out that I actually did have a label, and I had something that I could sort of look into, like, if I

was feeling a certain way, I could sort of even like google it something like that like how to help this and I had like a label that I could use kind of for different situations and Kim I guess it must have been a relief for you as well to to see that relief in Libby yes it wasn't immediate it took a little bit of time for her to get used to it of course but actually because we talked about the possibility of it before diagnosis and she'd already gone through an assessment procedure um locally that and they hadn't followed through with the diagnosis so it had taken about another year to then follow through with the Lorna wing the National Autism Society and we had to go through a private one but we had an exceptional experts there Dr Judith Gould and Sarah Listerbrook so that and they took a lot of time over the diagnosis

process a full day almost with with myself and my husband and separately with Libby and were able to talk it through in such a way and give her a lot of resources and support going forward. And I think that really helped her to understand it and come to terms with it. It was a relief because I could instantly see that she had something that she could, well, to understand herself, really. And everyone deserves to understand themselves, don't they? Absolutely. I mean, it's just a basic requirement for us all to get the best out of our lives. I just wonder, Libby, for you, what would you say are the best things about being autistic? Well, I think having a bit of a, like, boost on body language,

like this also might surprise people because there's a sort of a stereotype that all autistic people can't understand body language, but that's not true for me. I'm actually really hypersensitive to it, maybe even too much at times, but I can really notice little things in body language. Even with one of my friends,

if I say something and they say, like, OK, in a bit of an undertone, even more quiet or anything like that, I'll, like, OK, and a bit of, like, an undertone, more of an even more quiet or anything like that, I'll be like, what's the matter? And they'll be like, nothing, what do you mean? But that's, like, me sort of being me and more... I'd sort of dive more deeper than other people would in situations like that,

and I'd sort of dive beneath the surface and think maybe they do it because of that or something because I overthink quite a lot as well um but yeah you mentioned there about your friends I just wonder what school is like for you because I know that for some autistic girls particularly when we think about things like masking that's talked about quite a lot that there's this real desire to to fit in to mirror and then in doing that at school then getting home it can be absolutely exhausting what's it like for you because as you've rightly said everybody's very different on this yeah um well I I remember on Twitter my mum posted this thing that I wrote um when I was in year six and it was like I wrote on

a piece of paper um when I'm at school I'm like I get like crumpled up like a crumpled up bit of paper and then um when I get home I I can unfold but the creases are still there like scars from when I've been at school um but yeah school is quite a hard sort of subject for me because I my attendance isn't very good at school because of the anxiety um so I have had a lot of days off because of my anxiety being really high on those days and this can be from because of like various reasons but um yeah it's just a very like hard thing for me and Kim so many parents with autistic children can identify with exactly what libby's saying and it's tough for parents isn't it to make sure that libby gets the education

that she deserves and she has a right to and you want her to be happy but i'm guessing it's been a bit of a battle it is and you know i have to really reflect myself because every morning that Libby says she's not going, I feel stressed. I want to push her to go. And then I'm thinking, but why am I doing this to her? Because, as she said, it's not a choice. It's actually not a choice. And particularly children that have that sort of demand avoidance profile. So the PDA statistics from the PDA Society, which has been a wonderful support say 70% of children with that pathological demand avoidance profile either are not attending school or are attending regularly have problems with anxiety-based school avoidance it's a massive issue and it's not the

fault of the teachers but there is something about the school system as it is at the moment that is not providing ideally the flexibility for these children i think um sorry i think it needs to i think school needs to be more specific for the different people at the school because they sort of lay a blanket over the whole thing they're like right we need to be learning, this is how you learn, this has worked with the other kids, so we're going to do this, instead of taking each child's way of... ..like, the best way of learning for them and sort of figuring that out, that would help a lot. Like, they sort of... It is very mainstream.

They just put a, like a whole thing over it. They don't really get to know each child individually and their best way of learning and their things that they might find hard. And I think that needs to be changed. Libby, before you go, I want to talk to you about your new book. And for people who are reading this, whether these are children who are autistic

or whether they're children who've got friends who are autistic, what do you hope they're going to get out of your new book? I hope that... So for autistic people, I hope that they know that there's always someone going through the same thing as them and there's always someone out there that can help you, there's someone out there that will understand you. And, you know, even me, my twitter is um bloglibby i'm usually free

if you want to message me about anything any worries any questions um and yeah i just hope that like you know that everyone's different and just because you have autism doesn't mean you're different in a bad way it just means you you're, you know, even better almost. You're special. Yeah, exactly. And if you don't have autism and you're listening to this, I hope you know that it's not a disability. It's not a disease or anything like that. It's just purely a different thought process.

Libby, it's been an absolute delight speaking to you and meeting you today. And mum, you must be so proud. She's an absolute tribute to you and incredible. Thank you so much for coming in. It's great to meet you. No, absolute pleasure. So that was, you heard that from Libby Scott.

She's 13 years old, written three novels. I mean, incredible stuff. And also her mum is Kim. She's here with us as well. Thank you for coming in. Now, lots of you getting in touch with us about the conversation we had with Stella Creasy. Lucy here saying, listening to Stella Creasy MP on Woman's Hour, arguing her own case for maternity cover and feeling sad she has to advocate this during the stress of pregnancy and gestational diabetes maternity conditions and care in the uk are underfunded hugely variable and should be much better so many of your thoughts and messages coming in do keep them coming you can text us on 84844 now a humanitarian ceasefire has just been

called but since november last year the fighting between the Tigray People's Liberation Front and government forces in Ethiopia has left thousands of people dead. More than two million people have been displaced and 350,000 pushed towards famine. Well, the fighting began when rebels rejected political reforms and captured army bases. Tigrayans tell of remote villages where people are found dead in the morning, having perished overnight. The reports of women who have been kidnapped by soldiers and held as sexual slaves, cared for in hospitals or safe houses

and tormented by children from whom they are separated or may well be starving without their mother's care. Well, as you can imagine, this conversation over the next few minutes is going to be quite difficult to listen to. It could well be quite graphic. So if you do have young young ears around it may well be worth turning the radio down for the next six or seven minutes while we have this conversation but a very important conversation to be having here on Woman's Owl and pleased to say that I am joined by Rita Karzai who is coordinator of the Tigray Youth Network, which is based here in the UK. Also with us is BBC Africa correspondent in Nairobi, Vivian Nunes.

And Vivian, let's start by speaking to you, because this is a very complex conflict which started back in November. Just explain to us how it all began and where we are now. Hi, Chloe. Yeah, this is a really complex conflict with various players. It did start back at the end of last year. It's really a power struggle. The Tigrayan people in the north of Ethiopia have had a political group, the Tigrayan People's Liberation Front,

that have been in power in Ethiopia for many years. Even though they are a minority in terms of ethnicity, they've actually enjoyed quite a lot of political control. That was until Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed took power. He reformed the political system and critics would say he concentrated political power in the capital Addis Ababa. Now, the people in the north, the Tigrayans, didn't like that. They staged their own elections late last year. They were deemed illegal by Addis Ababa. But as a result, that was one of the things that triggered this deadly conflict, which we've seen raging now for eight months.

Earlier this week, we saw calls for a ceasefire, as you mentioned. But it was just a unilateral declaration. It only came from one side of this conflict, the Ethiopian government in Addis Ababa. It wasn't decided or mutually agreed. As a result, since Monday, we've seen conflict hostilities continuing on the ground. The Tigrayans say they're not going to put down arms until they have driven out all what they call the invading forces in Tigray, whether that's the Ethiopian soldiers, also the Eritrean soldiers who are fighting alongside them, and also some militia from a place in Ethiopia called Amhara. And in amongst all of this are the people on the ground

who are very much bearing the consequences. Absolutely. And from an international point of view, the humanitarian crisis in Tigray has been worrying many aid agencies and international commentators for months. We have, of course, the UN's concerns that there are hundreds of thousands of people on the brink of famine in Tigray, millions more really in need of food and water generally, as well as that there are also really concerning issues or allegations around sexual violence. We've heard accusations that Ethiopian and Eritrean soldiers have used sexual violence as a weapon targeted particularly at Tigrayan women, so women of that Tigrayan ethnicity.

As a result, we've seen calls from the international community, the World Health Organisation, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, Helen Clark, among others, for an investigation, an independent investigation at UN level into what's been going on here, as well as calling on all parties, of course, to meet their international obligations and stop these sorts of crimes if they are going on. Now, if there is a ceasefire, doesn't look like there is so far, but if there is soon, that would give aid agencies hope that they can go in and not only give women the treatment they need, but also investigate these crimes fully. Vivian Nunes speaking to us there from Nairobi.

She's the BBC's Africa correspondent. Well, let's bring in Rita Karzai, who's the coordinator of the Tigray Youth Network. Rita, I know that you have family in Tigray. What are the stories that they have told you and how did you first become aware of what was happening? Thank you. So I was actually in Rome studying away. I'm a student, chemical engineering. It's only the circumstances that came out of Tigray that pushed us into advocacy so around that time I actually couldn't contact my family members like many Tigrayans in the diaspora there was a communications blackout we couldn't hear from them but once we

did it was them trekking miles and miles to the capital where where they came and told us, you know, we've lost this family member or that family member. And there've been, as Vivian said, there've been reports of sexual violence and massacres happening at churches and things like that. So these are the types of things we were hearing from our family members. Their crops were being burnt so that they were being forced away from farming so they couldn't

cultivate food for themselves. A lot of them in Tigray are subsistence farmers. And this is the reason for the famine that is happening right now, as Vivian said and so yeah these are the type of things we were hearing from our family members and this means that so many people have have ended up being displaced because of of the stories that you're hearing yeah exactly so since since November we've had millions displaced internally displaced and around 63 000 people flee into neighboring Sudan away from the war um they've been you know the women that have been displaced have been completely neglected they don't have basic necessities like sanitary towels and things like that so at the Great Reviews Network actually we've been um trying to do as much as we can to send um these things over and sneak them in um as as much as possible um um as if you said i don't

know the un population fund unfp um have been saying they're around,500 women who actually will need medical help after being raped by these troops, these invading troops. So Amhara militia, Eritrean troops and Ethiopian troops. These claims have been corroborated by the Ethiopian troops themselves. They said it out loud, our women are being raped. What are we doing about it? And it's been systematic in that Mark Lowcock from the UN as well has spoken about how systematic and deliberate this rape is. It's an act of genocide.

They want to cleanse this ethnic group. And yeah, they've been, you know i i do incident report at um at tyn at the great network and we've had stories reports of women um being told they're being unharmonized as these men are being raping them they would push um they would force even like their family members to to rape these women to to leave trauma in the families and leave them as infertile as possible. There are also reports of the soldiers infecting themselves with HIV deliberately in order to infect as many Tigrayan women as possible with it for the ethnic group to be gone so um I mean it's actually harrowing to hear these stories and for your family and for people who are on the ground do they feel that that anyone cares do they feel forgotten yeah I think a lot of the they felt neglected um I think we felt

felt neglected even in the diaspora um we felt as if nobody's listening um and it has been I think we felt neglected, even in the diaspora. We felt as if nobody's listening. And it has been, I think, by the will of the people that this ceasefire has even been declared. It was declared once the people of Tigray fought themselves into the capital and pushed the invaders out. It's only then that the ceasefire was declared unilaterally after months and months of, you know, the Tigrayan people asking for dialogue, the Tigrayan leadership asking for dialogue, and they weren't, they didn't want war. They didn't want this to happen to their people.

It's once they forced them out that this ceasefire is supposedly happening. Yeah. Thank you for speaking to us, Rita. Difficult, and I can tell that you're emotional about this and quite understandably so. So thank you for speaking to us this morning. That's Rita Karzai, who's coordinator of the Tigray Youth Network based here in the UK,

explaining to us about some of the stories coming out of there. Particularly, she's been speaking, speaking obviously to family and friends now a few minutes ago we were of course speaking to Libby Scott the 13 year old girl who is autistic she's written three books incredibly at 13 loads of you getting in touch with us this morning on social media thank you so much Mark saying listening to at blog Libby on BBC Radio 4. What an inspiration. Disability Arts Kumrai says, good points. Also, many autistic people are disabled by society,

not inherently disabled, as with many other conditions. Thank you for getting in touch. And also Nikki Clark says, although for Libby, autism isn't a disability, it is for other autistic people. Good to highlight that

because as we know, autistic people are all different and there isn't one way to be autistic or disabled. Great interview on Woman's thank you very much nikki if you want to get in touch with us 84844 on the text now fertility clinics in the uk are removing an unsafe number of eggs from women hoping to have ivf according to a new study looking at data from uk fertility clinics between 2015 and 2018, researchers found that some were retrieving far too many eggs from women, reporting cases of up to 50 eggs being

removed in a single procedure. The ideal safe yield is around 12 eggs. Well, let's speak to Joyce Harper, who is Professor of Reproductive Science at the Institute of Women's Health at UCL and author of Your Fertile Years. Good morning, Joyce. Good morning. So take us through what was found here, because if we're saying the safe yield is around 12 eggs and some people are having up to 50 removed, what's happening? Well, yes, it's obviously something we have to be concerned about. In the fertility field, we have people feeling that even getting 11 or 12 eggs is too much. But the data that we have so far is a brilliant paper published in 2011 that suggests up to 15 eggs gives us the optimal life birth rate from fertility treatment. But once we go above 20

eggs, we're actually getting a decrease in life birth rate. So what we need to consider here is that when we're getting this huge quantity of eggs, we're not doing the patient any benefit regarding getting pregnant. We're giving a health risk. There's a really dangerous condition called ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome that can even be fatal. And the effects of these drugs on a woman's physical and mental state would be really quite profound. I've been through IVF myself, and these drugs are really powerful, and they can make you really unwell. So this is not a good situation to be in. It was only 2% that had this large number of eggs, and only 58 women had over 50 eggs. But I think this study has shown us that

we have to monitor this and look at this in much more detail because we don't want to be, we don't even want that 2%. So what are the rules surrounding this for IVF clinics? Are there rules on the number of eggs that they're allowed to take? No, it's something that some people have suggested that the HFEA, the Human Fertilization and Embryology Authority, who govern IVF in the UK, should be considering. So I mentioned that there is a movement towards what we call mild stimulation, where we give women less fertility drugs with the view that we will collect less eggs. But the data, unfortunately, for that at the moment is not really showing a good success rate. As I said, the studies are pointing that around anywhere

between 10 and 15 eggs is a good number. So there have been calls for the HFAA to regulate this. We are the most regulated country in the world with regards to fertility treatment. Some people feel that asking the HFAA to start telling doctors how many drugs they can give a woman is really going too far and that doctors are obviously doing the best for their patients. So in the vast majority of cases, they should hopefully control this cycle. And when they give these drugs, they monitor the woman very closely. They do an ultrasound scan and blood test to check that she's not overstimulating. So this should really be something that doctors can keep in control. Of course, there's also the issue of what happens to the remaining eggs. Yes. So I myself have frozen embryos. I have twins from frozen embryos. And I can tell

you that that decision of what to do if you have frozen eggs or even more ethically difficult is frozen embryos is really difficult. When I was on the other side, I really realised that the thought of discarding them or donating them to research is really difficult. And back when I was an embryologist in the 80s, I remember we had a woman who collected 49 eggs. And I froze, I think, about 40. And the woman never came back to use them. So at some point they were discarded. So we absolutely have a cost implication to the couple to freeze that number of eggs, but also their own thoughts about what they do with those embryos. And that's a very hard decision to make. So I

think we're really getting ourselves in a complication with health of the patient, the costs, the ethical dilemmas around these frozen embryos. So it's really not an avenue we want to go down. Do we know where British clinics stand in relation to other clinics around the world? Is this a practice that takes place elsewhere? There have been rumours, but this is the first data that I've seen that's actually looked at the numbers in this respect. And I think what it has done is prompted us that we should look at this. I'd be really interested to know, has this got worse? In the UK, we've done a wonderful job on transferring

one embryo in most patients and reducing the multiple pregnancy rate, which was a real issue 10, 15 years ago. So has this problem got worse? The data is only looking at a few recent years, or are we getting this under control? And it would be really interesting to see this globally. This week, we have our big European fertility conference, and this is something that we should raise there, looking at this data across Europe. And briefly, there's been a rise in the number of increases about egg freezing during the pandemic some clinics seeing as much as 50 i mean a bit of advice really for people who are looking at going down this journey because it is a it's a long and it's a costly journey potentially

it's a really costly journey and the um if a woman's considering freezing her eggs the main point she has to think about is her age. There was a report at our conference yesterday that age is so important and that over age 35, the results are really low. And unfortunately, the data also showed that the more eggs you have in storage, the better, which does seem obvious. But I wouldn't encourage a woman to have those collected at one point. I encourage if a woman's going to have egg freezing to maybe have two or three cycles and collect a small number of eggs at each stage. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. I'm really grateful to you. That is Joyce Harper, Professor of Reproductive Science at the Institute of

Women's Health at UCL and also the author of Your Fertile Years. So many messages from you this morning on this. Thank you so much. Sarah in Bucks says, 50 eggs is crazy. I can't imagine how uncomfortable those patients must have been. I had 12 collected in our first round of IVF earlier this year and the swelling is uncomfortable at that level. It seems there is such huge variations between clinics in their approach and in some cases a lack of regulation when women and couples are at a really vulnerable place in their lives. Thank you for that, Sarah. I'm scrolling up my screen because i've got some more messages which have come in here this is from sarah we had ivf for our first baby who has just turned seven we had three embryos which we then paid to freeze but fell pregnant very quickly after the birth of my son with our daughter who's now nearly six we then decided that we didn't need to keep the embryos anymore as we were happy with our little family that we'd made however the clinic we were with only gave us the choice to either keep paying to freeze them or destroy them. We found it hard to come to terms with deliberately destroying them

as we knew what they could have become. In the end, we found a clinic in a different part of the country who took the embryos and were able to use them to donate to another family who'd struggled with regular IVF. It was a huge decision as it was essentially a full genetic sibling of our own children. We had to write a letter for the child to potentially read when they turn 18 and are entitled to know their genetic parents. It wasn't an easy process, but I am pleased with

our decision. Thank you so much for getting in touch and Sarah, thank you for choosing to share your story with us. I'm very grateful to you. If you want to do the same, you can text us on 84844. Now, as we know, travellers are obliged to quarantine in a hotel at their own cost after returning from countries on the UK's red list, where COVID infection rates are high. They spend 10 nights in their room and are only allowed out for daily exercise when accompanied by a guard. Well, private security companies have been hired by the government to ensure hotel guests observe quarantine rules. Well, Cathy Godolphin says she experienced sexual harassment at the Heathrow Bath Road Holiday Inn after returning from working on a conservation and anti-poaching project in Zimbabwe. And she joins us now. Good morning, Cathy.

Good morning. Good morning. You're a bit quiet, but I'm sure we will be able to hear you. And it's worth pointing out at this point as well. This is nothing to do with the hotel staff. This was to do with the security staff who were working there. But just explain to us, you came back from Zimbabwe. You had to quarantine in a hotel. Just talk us through being moved to the hotel and what it was like when you arrived.

Well, the whole process was quite traumatic from the minute we landed in Heathrow. You know, you're sort of segregated, understandably, because of the pandemic, away from other passengers. You know, you're then put on a bus and there was me and um two other ladies on the whole bus and we had probably 89 security guards with us um so that was the process just to get to the hotel and then and yet you know you made the point of the hotel staff the hotel staff were lovely but you rarely saw them you didn't really have any dealings you weren't allowed to reception or anything you only really dealt with the security um and then once you were allocated or you were taken to your hotel you filled out paperwork and then that was it you were taken to your room and um you know it was it was tough because uh a lot of security guards couldn't speak english um yeah so it was a whole experience was traumatic if you ask me a lot of security guards couldn't speak English.

Yeah, so it was a whole experience. It was traumatic, if you ask me. Tell us about the specific incident that happened to you. Well, you're allowed out to exercise 15 minutes a day, but you have to ring down to a phone number and then they send a security guard often you couldn't get through on that anyway it would take over an hour but when they did send a security guard someone would come to your room they just caught you down to the exercise area and then you were allowed to spend sort of 15 minutes um also outside um And often, he never knew who was coming, but the actual incident, the first day,

a guy came and sort of said, it's your turn for exercise. So I went down in the lift with him and yeah, he was completely inappropriate. He didn't speak much English at all, but he was making um uh motions i don't know how much i love to say on radio uh inappropriate motions um in the lift and that first time i just sort of thought okay it's you know it was uncomfortable

but i just sort of put it down to an isolated incident. But it was the following day. It was the same guy. And we'd gone in the lift again, just me and him. And he pointed at the cameras and he swore about them and then turned his back on them and then started sort of touching himself completely inappropriately and suddenly knew a little bit of English

and was saying about how he needed to relieve himself and it's hard to sort of, because he was quite graphic in his language. And you're on a lift with him, so that must have been terrifying. Yeah, I mean, I was, and anyone that knows me knows I'm not very often shocked, you know, lost for words, but I was completely stunned. I just was, you know, just not what I expected at all.

And I had the advice that as soon as I got outside, I told another detainee, a Brazilian girl, and I sort of told her about it. She was like, you know, you've got to do something. This is not OK. You know, we're vulnerable here. And I did. I complained, which actually made my life more difficult after that. Why?

I then, you know, from the time i complained admittedly i never saw him again so i i don't know if they moved him to another park or he lost his job i don't know um but the following day i three sets of two security guards that um would um came to my room um was you know i found very intimidating they were basically saying you know you're breaking rules you're you know and i just sort of said is this all because i've complained and they were like you know so it just became really quite intimidating it was quite scary i kept my internal uh lock on my door the whole time after that let me read your statement which has come from g4s it says it's imperative that women who are required to quarantine in uk hotels feel safe and secure at all times g4s therefore has appropriate training and screening

processes which require all security staff deployed at quarantine hotels to have security industry authority accreditation including a full background check and the successful completion of SIA mandated training. We treat all complaints extremely seriously, report them promptly and support the Department of Health and Social Care to conduct rigorous investigations in all cases. G4S expects its employees to treat all people with respect and has a zero tolerance approach to any behaviour which fails to meet this standard and a government spokesperson from the Department of Health and Social Care said allegations of and has a zero tolerance approach to any behaviour which fails to meet this standard. And a government spokesperson from the Department of Health and Social Care said allegations of sexual harassment are taken seriously.

The government continues to ensure every person in managed quarantine gets the assistance they need and will support any investigation. We expect hotels to do their utmost to take any necessary steps to address and investigate concerns raised by guests, including raising these with the department where relevant. We regularly meet with stakeholders to ensure all staff adhere to the highest professional standards if staff fall below these standards we will not hesitate to make take immediate action to suspend individuals where appropriate and report to the police where necessary i mean i know that you are not the only person who's had this experience other people have

got in touch with you to say they've had similar experiences I mean we don't have a lot of time left but just tell me what impact it's had on you um you know it's been horrible and um you know quite a few women have come forward and actually um you know I've had messages via social media saying you know thank you for speaking out because this has been happening to me. Even people that are hotel staff, you know, have said that they've been having this problem from the staff. It certainly wasn't investigated. You know, I was told it would be.

I was told I would be updated on the outcome. No one ever got back to me. So, you know, I'm disappointed when you read that statement. I thought, thought well none of that happened for me well listen kathy i appreciate it's been really difficult and i am grateful to you for coming on and sharing your story with us this morning that's kathy godolphin who experienced sexual harassment at uh one of those quarantine hotels after coming back from zimbabwe so many of you getting in touch with us this morning with your stories about living with autism and the

effect it's had on you hearing libby scott speaking to us earlier on this morning with your stories about living with autism and the effect it's had on you hearing Libby Scott speaking to us earlier on and also about your stories of your experiences with IVF. Thank you so much for getting in touch with us this morning and it's been great to have your company for the last three days here on Woman's Hour. We're back again tomorrow at 10. Hi I'm Matthew Side and I'd like to invite you to see the world differently with my podcast, Sideways. Those societies and social networks begin to act as a brain, a collective brain unto itself. Sideways is all about the ideas that shape our lives. And in this series, I'll get to grips with the myth of mind control. This is your subliminal programming tape on smoking control. He's what I would consider to be a quack charlatan.

And I'll find out why it's so hard to be original. For all this and more, subscribe've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

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