Woman's Hour - Stella Creasy MP, Living with one breast, City Girl in Nature

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

A man has been convicted in court of harassing the Labour MP Stella Creasy. This harassment included reporting her to social services as an 'unfit mother'. A safeguarding review quickly cleared Stella Creasy – but the complaint cannot be removed from her records. Today, she is tabling an amendment to the Victims and Prisoners Bill, to allow councils to delete baseless complaints. Stella Creasy speaks to Krupa Padhy about her fight for justice under a law she herself drafted. She also pays tribute to fellow Labour politician Glenys Kinnock, who died on Sunday.Last week on the programme we heard from Katy Marks, an architect by trade, who discovered after her single mastectomy that there was no bra on the market that was flat on one side. She didn’t want to use a prosthetic and so designed her own. Lots of you got in touch following that item to talk about your own experiences of living with one breast. Krupa is joined by two listeners, Diane Devlin and Laura Homer.Born and raised in Deptford, south east London, Kwesia didn’t grow up with a lot of nature around her. That’s until she went on a life-changing trip to the Amazon. She’s since created her YouTube channel, City Girl in Nature, to guide other city dwellers into the great outdoors. She speaks to Krupa about her platform, nature activism work, and winning Best New Voice at the Audio Production Awards for her podcast Get Birding.Some studies have found that women are more vulnerable to negative health impacts of single-use plastics, and women also form a larger majority of plastic consumers. With COP28 now underway in Dubai, Krupa is joined by Christina Dixon from Environmental Investigation Agency - an NGO which uncovers environmental crime and abuse. She would like to see plastic pollution being given a higher profile in climate talks.What do our shoe choices say about us? A new exhibition at the Arc in Winchester in Hampshire called SHOES: INSIDE OUT looks at our relationship with our footwear. From the functional and practical to the fashionable and extravagant, what can shoes tell us about our social history, modern lives and our aspirations? Krupa is joined by Claire Isbester, co-curator of the exhibition.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Joining us this morning is the Labour MP for Walthamstow, Stella Creasy. Writing in The Times this morning, she shared that there can be few more surreal moments as an MP than being a victim in court, listening to a judge convict someone for a law they themselves helped to write. Last week, a non-constituent who had never met Stella or her family, admitting harassing them and received a suspended sentence. And the judge described the case as one

of the worst he had seen. We'll talk to Stella Creasy at about half past 10 about what that outcome means to her and her loved ones, but also what more needs to be done to support people who are victims of trolling, even when the case is closed in court. So do stay with us for that. Also, you may not think of plastic pollution as having a gender dimension, but it's well documented that women are more impacted by plastic pollution than men. We're going to explain to what extent that is the case and, of course, the science behind it.

And we're talking shoes. Thankfully, my desire to wear four-inch stilettos went out the window many years ago, but petite five-foot me does like a little heel to feel that bit more powerful, at least in the mind. A new exhibition looks at our relationship with our footwear and we'll be sharing and learning more about it. Why do you choose the shoes you do?

Is it the style, the comfort, the height? Is there a pair you just can't get rid of? Do let me know. It is 84844. That's our text number over on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour. Email us through our website or send us a WhatsApp message

or audio note using the number 03700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions can be found over on our website. So please do get in touch on any of the stories we are covering, not just the shoes.

And here on Women's Hour, we do welcome your comments and feedback and personal insights, as I was just saying. And last week, we had a tremendous response to an interview with the architect Katie Marks, who discovered after her single mastectomy that there was no bra on the market that was flat on one side. So she designed her own. Women's Hour listener Diane Devlin got in touch to say, I will be 68 in February.

I had a mastectomy in 1992, so I suppose half my life with two breaths and half with one. There is a powerful story of the thousands of women in their later years with one or no breaths. And we've invited Diane to share her powerful story with us. Good to have you with us, Diane. Thank you very much. Also with us is Laura Homer, who left us a message on Instagram about her story. Good morning to you, Laura. Good morning. Good morning. you, Laura. Good morning.

Good morning. Well, Diane, let's start with you. You had your mastectomy in your 30s. You are now in your late 60s. And you decided not to have a reconstruction. How difficult a decision was that to make? It was a very difficult decision. And there was quite a lot of pressure on me to have a reconstruction from

the medical profession to some friends and family who felt that was a young woman and I needed to get back to normal as they thought and I think with the best of intentions I was I kind of went along a little train ride about reconstruction, whether I would have it or not. So it was a difficult decision. And lots of pressure, as you talk about, and we will get into that in a moment. Interestingly, you've used all sorts to fill out your bra, haven't you? And even thrown it at people, as I understand. Pardon?

And even thrown it at people at times, as I understand. Absolutely. You should have my family about that, yeah. And stabbing it and squeezing out the silicone. And I had a lot of feelings towards this prosthesis because it wasn't my breast and I really missed not having my breast. And so I took it out on the prosthesis

and I would wear, I also found it incredibly, because they're quite large breasted on the prosthesis and I would wear I also found it incredibly because they're quite large breasted on the right side and I found it bulky and heavy and it just didn't feel right lying on top of my body so I would have used scarves

and all sorts of things sometimes when I was getting kids ready to school and in a bit of a rush and stressed about it all you know where's my prosthesis would be you know and I'd sort of grab it and put it in my bag so yeah. And I think what's important with your story and what really stood out to us is your age and that journey you've been on those kind of emotions that you've touched on there because you've gone through periods of wearing a prosthesis and then not wearing one.

And I imagine your attitude has evolved, changed over the years. Yeah, definitely. I think that's the whole thing. I mean, about breast cancer and mastectomy, I mean, I'm really grateful to be alive. There's a lot of women who I knew and who I looked after, actually, who are not alive. And so I have to be grateful for that.

And each sort of decade, I felt different things as the body kind of grows and evolves and changes. I felt different about my body overall and different about how I felt about the prosthesis and my sexuality, etc. You know, so it has been quite an evolving journey. Laura, can I bring you in here? Because you are earlier on in this journey compared to Diane. You had a mastectomy back in July 2022. And you also say that bra buying has been an absolute pain. In what way?

When you've had your operation, there are a lot of post-surgery bras available. If you go to the normal sort of high street outlets. But when you're kind of further down the journey and you think, well, you know, you're going to live the rest of your life with one breast, there isn't anything on the market. And I did go into a well-known high street store and I probably took 30 different bras into the changing room. And, you know, they weren't lying flat on my flat side. I got quite frustrated. I got quite upset. And I called out for one of the bra fitters to come and give me a hand. And she was lovely. And the only thing that she could

offer me was a bra that would fit a prosthesis in, which along with Diane, I don't wear. I've chosen not to wear. So there was really nothing on the market. So when your item last week with Katie was broadcast, I was really interested in that because, you know, over the course of the last 18 months, I've been looking for a bra that would fit somebody like me. And there hasn't been anything on the market up until now. Can I ask you, Laura, on a personal level, how this has impacted your body confidence going through that process, not just, you know, what you've gone through with the actual cancer, but thereafter and your body confidence and how that's been impacted, really? Okay, so when I had my mastectomy, I knew straight away that I didn't want a reconstruction. And this is mainly because my mother's had a mastectomy and she chose not to reconstruct.

And she's gone through the last 10 years wearing a prosthesis. And I thought, well, I'll just be the same as her. I didn't have a very strong emotional connection to to my boobs I mean the best thing they did was feed my children when I had my babies um so I didn't feel a huge loss in terms of things like cleavage and things like that um for me you know losing the breast was more you know I you know I got rid of the cancer that was the main thing um and for me I just wanted to get back to normal life as soon as possible um so I swim I do karate and I wanted to as far as the confidence goes, I didn't feel ashamed or wanting to hide away. So I got back into the pool quite quickly after my operation. And I've just accepted that that's how I am now.

And I feel quite confident in myself with the change. Yeah. And that word acceptance is so key. Yes. Diane, I wonder what it's been like for you and really how your self-esteem has been impacted. I've not been very good at accepting. I think Paula's a congratulator, I think, to find some peace and acceptance because that's just not been my journey. I've had different feelings at different times, and I have missed having a cleavage, and it's quite difficult when you're, if you're, you know,

you're single and going out and about looking for a partnership, and when do you tell the person you've only got one breast? And, you know, and I've had some quite difficult times in terms of the prosthesis almost falling out. And I recognised that with Jo last week when she was speaking about that. So I think sexuality and presentation of how you look has been important. And sometimes at times, because I've known that people wanted me to wear the prosthesis

and appear normal, I've actually put it on against my better judgment probably because I could feel that they were a little bit upset or didn't want other people to know. And so I've had a lot of different experiences around it. So being one-breasted, I think, is quite a brave choice, quite a strong choice. And I think sometimes, like, in life, we have good days and bad days.

And when we've had our processes on or not, we have good days and bad days. So it just depends on how we're feeling in terms of really confidence, I suppose. And I think I'll always be, that's always how I'll feel, you know. Diane, interestingly, you mentioned at the start of that answer about relationships and when the right time is to tell your partner about your body.

Have you been in that position and what decisions have you made? Yeah, I have been in that decision and that place. And I thought I covered it up. The first kind of date I was with somebody, I thought I was covering it up pretty well because I had my prosthesis in. But they didn't seem to think so. They actually, they didn't say to me actually,

oh, have you got one breast? But I subsequently found out that they did. But I think, oh, she looks a bit, you know, I mean, years ago, you know, and as you were saying, Paula, the bras are really tricky. So I maybe hadn't sort of got myself organised properly to kind of look even and symmetrical, et cetera. And the other thing is about is about sexuality and you know intimacy uh this is another big issue which i don't think that uh women talk about especially older women

talk about in terms of their bodies and having one breast so that was quite a big thing and i have to say i did have a couple glasses of wine and um. Because, yeah, when do you do it? It was a big deal for me. I'm not saying, I'm sure there's hundreds and thousands of women out there who maybe it's not such a big deal, but it was a pretty big deal for me. So I just use humour. That's the way that I get around things, by using humour and sort of depreciating myself and having a bit of laugh.

I mean, let me get Laura back in here. I wonder what your thoughts are on the subject of relationships and intimacy as well. Well, I'm currently single and I'm not really sort of out to find a partner at the moment. But, yeah, it is something I've thought about um and I think you know at the end of the day someone's got to like me for for who I am um and I think I would be up front quite you know quite um early on in any relationship that I would have saying well you know this this

is how I am and you know if you're going to accept it or not accept it that's that's your loss really. On the subject of being up front then I know that you work as a teacher as well how visible are you with young children? So my school's been very supportive it is a girls school with a female, so there's very much a focus on body positivity and confidence for girls. My pupils do know about my diagnosis and my operation, and I did have a lesson last year with with my girls where we were talking about it was a PSHE lesson and one of the teaching resources I used did feature a lady with a mastectomy scar and that was just by chance it wasn't something I planned I was researching the resources that I needed and it was a really good opportunity to um explain to the children in a in a simple way

um you know that there are different bodies um and you know to be accepting of those differences well that's reassuring to hear that you've had that support network yeah yeah i should i should mention laura that you are now at a point where you are considering or you've made the decision now to have your other breasts removed. Explain that decision to us. Okay, so after my diagnosis, I straightaway knew that I didn't want a reconstruction for all the reasons of it's a complicated operation. As your guest said last week, if you're having radiotherapy,

which I did it you have to you can't have your reconstruction straight away um and i i didn't feel like i wanted anything sort of fake on my body um and while i've been quite accepting of having one breast and i've i've gone out and about with one breast. It is a bit awkward. It's awkward for underwear. It's awkward for clothing. You do have in the back of your mind a fear of recurrence in your other breast.

And I've had a lot of support and dialogue with a charity called Flat Friends and they advocate for women who choose not to reconstruct and through that charity and through the forums I've had a lot of dialogue with ladies who have chosen to have their other boob removed for symmetry and it's you know a flat symmetry as opposed to a reconstructed symmetry. And I gave that quite a lot of thought. It wasn't an immediate decision. It's something that's evolved over the last few months.

And I had a discussion with my surgeon, not entirely sure that they would agree to the operation, but he was very supportive. He said that women are not defined by their breasts um for me for my quality of life and the kind of life i lead i'm quite active um prosthesis don't work for me um it's clearly an informed call from all angles yeah yeah and you know that is my choice and it's quite a radical choice. But there are other women who have made that choice. Yeah. And they might, instead of, you know, having lingerie,

they may have a tattoo. And that's something I'm thinking of doing. And, you know, they celebrate their beauty in that way. And it is on that note that we shall end this conversation, celebrating your beauty in your own way. Thank you so much, Diane Devlin, for writing in. Laura Homer for sending us your message on Instagram. We do appreciate you sharing your personal insights with us.

And this message is coming to us whilst we were having our conversation. Good to talk about mastectomy issues. Had one in 2010, reconstruction in 2015. Was lovely to be whole again and see them jiggle. Bras are the biggest disappointment of my life. They are a pain for a while. I did feel I wanted a double mastectomy just to be even and more comfortable. I don't know why they don't offer or discuss this more. Thank you for your messages. Do

keep them coming in. On to the climate and the environment, because political leaders and climate activists are in Dubai for COP28. And just before the UN conference started last Friday, the UK Environment Secretary announced a package of measures to help more people to get access to our natural heritage and to tackle climate change. These initiatives included a search for a new national park and funding to help more children to get into nature. Well, my next guest feels one step ahead.

She's used her own experience and platform to connect a whole new generation of city dwellers with the great outdoors. Her name is Kwecia, otherwise known as City Girl in nature. She grew up in Deptford in southeast London, but it was a life-changing trip to the Amazon that started her on her nature journey. And determined to share her experience with others,

she set up a YouTube channel and also a podcast That started her on her nature journey and determined to share her experience with others. She set up a YouTube channel and also a podcast called Get Birding, which recently won Best New Voice at the Audio Production Awards. Good to have you with us, Chrissie. You're in the studio with me. Thank you for having me. And congratulations on that award. Thank you so much. What did it mean to you? It was really shocking, in fact, because it was the first podcast I hosted only six months of getting involved in audio so. Yeah well I've had a listen it's it's great it's gripping.

Before we talk about your nature work I want to learn more about you because I think your personal story your personal journey is really important and really features as the backdrop to this whole podcast. You're from Deptford originally. How would you describe growing up there? I guess growing up in Deptford, it wasn't like it is now, gentrified and stuff. Coming from a place close to a state called Peep's Estate, it was obviously quite challenging. A lot of people within my community

have an experience, hardship through inequalities poverty and I guess that comes along with challenges and as well as stuff like knife crime and you know and these are some things that you impacted that you were impacted by firsthand and know that you ended up homeless for a while yeah so I was homeless after a build-up of quite a few life events that happened to me across two years spans, including losing my auntie to an honour killing, my friend dying from knife crime and being a young carer. Which really, what really turned my mental health into where the state it was, was actually losing my friend from knife crime, which really impacted me and impacts the community quite a lot and is normalised as well. And there's no support when those types of things happen with these types of communities,

which in turn, just like me, made my mental health go into overdrive. And I guess that's where I had a family breakdown and my situation then turned into me sofa surfing. You've clearly had obstacles to overcome in your young life. How do you go then from sofa surfing, as you put it, and hostels to the Amazon? So I guess I was working with a brilliant, brilliant organisation and project called Black Minds Matter. And they were working with young people trying to build social change leaders.

And I guess Serpentipity, I was there working with that project and also a guy from the British Exploring Society came in and presented this opportunity to go on an expedition. I had a secret passion for David Attenborough documentaries but that then came a reality for me. And my next step after never camping before was to the Peruvian Amazon for three weeks with no phone and strangers. And how was that? It was completely life changing and changed the trajectory of my life, actually. How? So I guess how it happened was I spent myself, I was emerged in nature, and I found it truly healing. I felt that a lot of the trauma I had faced being in nature gave me the opportunity to have another chance at life and

in fact some of my experiences were quite extreme so it felt really good to just like be able to feel free and nature provided that space and facilitated that healing, I guess, that I'm speaking about. And I wanted more people to feel that feeling. So it wasn't just about you and your own healing. You wanted to kind of spread that joy, so you launched your platforms. Yep, and that's why I started doing the work that I do, just using myself as an example

so that more young people and people that have these experiences understand the importance of having a relationship with our natural world. What's been the response from people you grew up with and the community that you grew up around? So it's quite funny because when I first told them I was going to the Amazon, some of them didn't even know where it was. And some people were like, what? Are you crazy? And I guess that was interesting having that feedback but I was completely looking forward to like I couldn't imagine that like what it would be like but I kind of did and I was excited by that and I guess by having the life experiences I did it built that

resilience to really just go for that opportunity I was was going through some of your videos and there's one that was so heartwarming. It was you talking to your mum about repotting plants. That's exactly what I do with my mum now. And I grew up in a very kind of a bit of an urban jungle, really. You didn't even realise there was acres of greenery down the road because we were never really exposed to it. But one thing we did do as kids is repot plants and have those conversations

you've really touched communities not just your own generation but older generations too haven't you definitely yeah um especially not just with my platform with city girl nature but hosting get birding for instance i've spoken to people that have are visually impaired even and just showing that wherever you are you know you can connect with nature on your doorstep yeah yeah um you've recently had a baby congratulations thank you little boy little girl little boy little boy um how has that changed the way you are seeing nature i wonder so it's really gave me a another new set of eyes um it's really transformative you know having a child the whole process and

the innate feelings that you feel and just how transformative our life goes once having a baby and the whole process as i say and just the importance of him building that relationship with nature from a young age and i also did a lotus birth um which uh for those who don't know is where the baby is still attached to the placenta and it falls off naturally so just like homing into holistic practices and you know getting that relationship with nature from a baby and continuing it as that child grows is something that I've found so important and definitely something I'm trying to do in my next project too. Next project, because let me just go through the various projects that you've got underway.

You've got your podcast, you've got your YouTube channel. You also organise trips away and nature walks for young people. You're a busy lady. Yeah, but it's all coming from a place of passion. And, you know, seeing those young people and people being impacted by the things that we're doing. Like I just ran a camp in summer for 11 to 16 year olds in the New Forest. Good on you. Brilliant. All of these types of experiences are life changing, big and small. Could a young Kwasiha have thought of herself in this position just a few years ago?

When you look back at all of what you've achieved how do you feel i guess serendipity is the word that i like to use nowadays because i wouldn't have imagined it but it's what life has given me i guess um yeah well good luck with the next project i'm sure you're going to achieve wonderful things absolute pleasure having you here on woman's hour thank you for being with us. Thanks. And thank you to the many of you getting in touch with your various comments about the item that we started with on mastectomies. Let me try and read you a few of them now. Regarding the mastectomy, no one has mentioned specifically that you lose your nipple with your breast as a source of sexual stimulation. This certainly matters to me, not only the aesthetics of how I looked, and that was something that Diane was talking about, that we need to talk more about how it impacts relationships and intimacy.

And this is a message from Kate. She's 66. I had her first cancer in 2002. She says, I asked my surgeon to please remove both breasts as I didn't want reconstruction. He refused, saying he couldn't remove my healthy breasts as it was fine. And I may decide a few years down the line to have a reconstruction I lived for nine years with one breast didn't find the prosthesis comfortable then developed a new second cancer in my other breast in 2011 I'm so much more confident

and happier now women need to be listened to you thank you for your messages so if you want to get in touch it is 84844 you can message us over on social media we are at bbc women's hour or find our email address over on our website just like diane and laura do get in touch with your thoughts i'm sarah trelevan and for over a year i've been working on one of the most complex stories i've ever covered there was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Let's continue with the subject of the environment.

I mentioned COP28, a UN climate conference that's taking place in Dubai. And much of the conversation there will be on limiting the main causes of climate change, looking at fossil fuels like oil and gas. Now one material that some activists want to see more on the agenda at COP28 is plastic and a closer look at the greenhouse emissions released from the production as well as the incineration and recycling of plastics. Some studies have found that plastic production and pollution is in fact more harmful to women than men and the world is creating twice as much plastic waste as 20 years ago, according to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

This figure is only predicted to grow. Joining me now is Christina Dixon, the Ocean Campaign Leader for the Environmental Investigation Agency. And that's an NGO that uncovers environmental crime and abuse. Thanks for being with us, Christina. Thank you. Now, you've recently just got back from international negotiations about a plastics treaty. Tell us more about it, how those negotiations went.

Yeah, so at the moment, we're about halfway through the process of negotiating a new treaty on plastics. And that's largely because plastics, as you alluded to in your introduction, they're not really dealt with anywhere else. And we have a completely fragmented governance landscape for plastics and particular elements of the plastics lifecycle. For example, production aren't adequately dealt with. They're not even mentioned in the context of the climate agreement. So we basically urgently need something that's going to deal with the overproduction and consumption of plastics, but also all of the health risks that are associated with the use of plastics.

So the third round of negotiations took place a couple of weeks ago. And I would like to be a little bit more optimistic than I'm going to sound right now. But we're in a really difficult phase right now where there are sort of oil and gas industry interests kind of essentially threatening to derail the process. So we're seeing the sort of same countries that we see quite active in the climate space being problematic and trying to push ambition down. So to essentially make this a waste management treaty, which we know won't deal with the problem. So I think that we're going to get ourselves back on track. But the goal is to end the negotiations by the end of next year. And we've got a tough road ahead if we're going to meet that goal.

We've spoken at length on this programme about how women across the world are more negatively impacted by climate change, especially in developing countries. So can you just outline to us how plastic is more harmful to women compared to men? Absolutely. So there's a range of different ways in which this takes place. And I can give you just a few examples. But at its core, there are around 13,000 chemicals that are used or present in plastics. And about quarter of those are substances of concern. But there's actually a lot of those chemicals that are associated with plastics that we actually don't even have hazard data about. So this is really concerning. And there's no regulation, there's no transparency. So we know that these chemicals are in our daily lives. And we know that they have the potential to cause great harm, but we don't have the data.

So that's one of the sort of main challenges. And then as it specifically relates to women, women are a lot more sensitive to the chemicals that are present in plastics. So they absorb those toxins more readily into their bodies. and this has then been linked to things like infertility higher rates of cancer for example so that increased exposure is obviously a major concern for women. I don't want to sort of leave men out here because actually plastics are also associated for example with declining sperm counts so it is it is a kind of problem for all genders. However, women do have this increased exposure risk and this increased absorption risk. Also, I would say that, you know,

there are women who are extremely important in the kind of management of plastics, so particularly women waste pickers, who are predominantly the ones who are outgoing and collecting waste in landfills. And two-thirds of the landfill accidents actually impact women. So there's the kind of exposure risk. And you see, for example, amongst waste pickers, waste collectors who are dealing with our waste from the UK,

they're more likely to face, for example, miscarriage, problems with menstruation, infertility, but also higher risk of accidents. So I'm just going to stop you there because all these health conditions almost that you are that you are sharing some women might be listening to this and in fact men and they might feel alarmed and so what I want to understand from you better is how what you are describing there how plastic pollution and the impacts on our health especially women's health compares to say air pollution. Well in a, you could say they're almost the same, as in the fact that we are wearing plastics on our body means that we are also shedding plastics into the airborne environment. So increasingly, we're seeing studies that, you know, plastics are in the air,

plastics are in water, they're in breast milk, they're in placentas. So our exposure to plastics is now completely ubiquitous. And I say this, I'm talking to you on a machine covered in plastic. So it's so ubiquitous in our daily life. Air pollution also is plastic pollution, particularly for the communities that live, for example, at the front line of the facilities where plastics are being made. We see huge health risks associated with the emissions coming from those facilities where plastics are being made, we see huge health risks associated with the emissions coming from those facilities where they're making plastics, as well as the emissions that are coming from the open burning and the incineration of plastic. So this kind of toxic ash. So plastic

pollution is air pollution, as well as, you know, a health issue, as well as in our oceans, it's basically everywhere. You talked about women being more exposed to these hazards, because in some parts of the world, the kind of work that they do. What about women as consumers? How does that impact this process? Yeah, so it's also, I was actually thinking about this this morning when I was thinking about what I was going to talk about, because it's just such a complicated and interesting issue, actually. You know, why should women be more exposed and more subjected to this risk and this harm? And if you think about just, you know, what I was doing when I was getting

ready this morning, right, I put on a little bit of makeup, I, you know, used my toothpaste, all of these things, they're in plastic packaging. And they also have intentionally added microplastics that are actually deliberately put into the products that we're using. And women do tend to use more of these kind of, you know, body creams, body scrubs, toothpastes, that kind of stuff. I even read a statistic that 61% of face creams contain intentionally added microplastics. So we're actually sort of deliberately putting these plastics on our body and consuming products that are wrapped in plastic, but also things like tampons, sanitary pads, and then the clothes that we're wearing,

these all contain plastics. And, you know, for example, as a woman, I might be wearing underwear that's made of polyester. That is a plastic that contains potentially harmful chemicals. We've got the COP28 summit ongoing at the moment, that conference in Dubai. How optimistic are you that plastic pollution will be discussed? I don't think that plastic pollution will be discussed in any sort of meaningful way in this space. At the moment, it's just really critical that we get some reference to fossil fuels and a phase out of fossil fuels somehow captured within the discussions that are going on. And that will have an impact on plastics. Plastics are fossil fuels. So the fact that plastics are not even mentioned in the context of the climate agreement is extremely concerning.

So that's, I think, our main hope. But also just to see the relationship between emissions that come from plastics. If the plastics lifecycle was a country, it would actually be the fifth largest greenhouse gas emitter in the world. So that's it's huge. It's a huge source of climate emissions. There's absolutely no way that we can exist in a 1.5 degrees world if we don't deal with the emissions related to plastic production in particular. So that conversation is happening. Colleagues of mine from the Environmental Investigation Agency are doing side events at COP together with governments who are really interested in this. But I'm not sure yet that that narrative and that conversation is there yet to really directly see that link. So part of the work that we're doing is just trying to really help the world understand that, you know, plastics are fossil fuels. They're also chemicals. When we think about the sort of triple planetary crisis

that we're existing in, plastics is a key component that is part of all of those elements. What would you like to see happen next? Well, I'd like to see an ambitious legally binding plastics treaty negotiated by the end of next year. But I also think that, you know, the elements that are in that treaty are really important. It's not that we just need a treaty and jobs done. We need to see a kind of global system change, which really deals with things like toxic chemicals that are in plastic. We need strict criteria and transparency that guides the use of those materials. It's impossible for consumers, for us as women, to make informed choices if we don't even have access to the information about the products that we're bringing into our homes. So that needs to be a key part of

the solution that we're looking for, as well as a dramatic phase down on plastic production and consumption. So things like shifting to reusable packaging, refillable packaging, but at scale in a way that's affordable and accessible for most people, not just for the wealthy. Christina Dixon, we appreciate your expertise here on Women's Hour. That was Christina Dixon from the Ocean, or rather the Ocean campaign leader for the Environmental Investigation Agency on plastic pollution, how it impacts our health and what more needs to be done. Hilary has emailed on the subject of mastectomies that we were talking about at the start of the programme. She says she had a mastectomy in 1990 and despite now being 70, she still feels the loss of body image. At the time I had one month from diagnosis through lumpectomy to mastectomy. My

daughter was six months old and I was still breastfeeding. It was incredibly hard. Thank you for sharing your insights there Hilary. And this one, this message writes, when having a mastectomy it's not compulsory for the nipples to be removed. My daughter had a double risk reducing mastectomy and reconstruction a few years ago and opted to retain her nipples. In my case, when I had breast cancer, I had my nipples removed as part of the double mastectomy and later new ones were fashioned from the surrounding skin followed by areola tattoos.

The sensation is not the same as the original nipples, but I feel that they retain a ghost memory of sorts. Thank you for sharing your personal views there to all our listeners who are getting in touch. Next, a man has been convicted in court of harassing the Labour MP Stella Creasy. As part of this harassment, the man had reported Creasy to social services. A safeguarding review by social services quickly cleared Creasy, but the complaint cannot be removed from her records. Today, she is tabling an amendment to the Victims and Prisoners Bill to allow councils to remove basis complaints from their records.

And Stella Creasy joins us now on the line. Thank you for being with us, Stella. Hi there. Hi. The judge in your case told you that having dealt with multiple incidents involving harassment of public officials, this was one of the worst he had seen. Can you tell our listeners what you experienced?

Yeah, I had been receiving messages from somebody who wasn't a constituent. So the parliamentary protocol is not that we have to respond to them. They were angry, incoherent, rants about the work that I was doing on making misogyny a hate crime. They were lurid about

women and his views on women. But I also recognise in a democracy, people are going to write to MPs, they'll hold strong views on the things that you are doing. And that had gone on for quite some time. Then I got a phone call from my local social services to say that they had conducted an inquiry into whether I was a fit mother. They decided that the allegation was baseless, but they were concerned about my own welfare because somebody was making such a complaint. And this person had decided purely on the basis of my political views, so I'd never had any contact with myself or my young children, that I was an unfit mother and that my children should be taken away from me. Now, as a consequence of his behaviour, my children have a social services record, which means, and people will

know this, whenever you have contact with public agencies, I had to take my son to hospital. Of course, they ask you, is your child known to social services? I'm applying for school places for my children. Of course, the question comes up. So even though this man has now been convicted of harassing my family, and I should be very, very clear, the judge recognised the harassment was both to myself and to my family. He continued on making malicious complaints about me, even when the police had told him to stop and told him that his behaviour was causing distress. That harassment continues to have an impact because that record exists and my local authorities tell me that they can't delete it. Obviously, this man did what he did because I'm a figure in the public eye and as

a politician, he felt that was the way to respond to my political views but actually we know in a lot of cases victims of stalking and harassment often are subjects to malicious complaints and we also know there's an increasing trend particularly of women in the public eye being reported to social services well let's explore that in a bit more depth because you were in the very odd situation of listening to someone be convicted of breaking a law a law that you yourself had drafted. What was that law and what did it change? Well, yes, I was at one point a shadow minister and I worked on the stalking and harassment legislation,

which is why when I saw this man was fixating on me and my family because I'd had the privilege to work with a range of experts on stalking and harassment, I knew it was much more serious than the initial police response, which was, well, he's entitled to his views and your views are extreme because, after all, you are a feminist. But I also knew that because he'd continued on even when he'd been told to stop, that was a breach of the law. It is a very surreal thing as a member of parliament to sit in a court and listen to a law that you helped write, that you obviously never thought you might be subject to being applied and obviously you can't stop being a victim so I sat in the court clutching myself to stop myself from shaking because I was thinking

about what this man was doing and thinking about my family and obviously that is an incredibly distressing thing and it's also obviously a distressing thing to be accused of being an unfit mother purely because of the views that I hold. And I know that other people going through stalking and harassment have also been subject to these sorts of complaints. So we need a way of removing a malicious complaint so that it stops being a form of harassment to continually target people in this way. You talk about other people going through some of what you've gone through. We were hearing from social media influencers, Ashley James, Charlotte Dawson, they've both spoken about strangers making false calls to social services about them. Do we have a sense of the extent or how common this form of harassment is?

Well, I'm slightly wary of speaking out because I don't want to encourage it. And I should say very clearly, we all take safeguarding incredibly seriously as MPs. I think it's very important that people do feel they should report and they take the process seriously and therefore they don't abuse it in this way. And maliciously making a complaint and using that process to target somebody. So people I work with on a daily basis had to sit around considering whether I might be a risk to my children, because I'd quite like them to know who Rosa Parks was. You know, these are things that should not be happening so that social services professionals can focus on the real cases of safeguarding concern. Frankly, it's not just social services that we see this third party reporting. This gentleman was right, he wrote to you, he wrote to the Labour Party, he was continually making malicious reports as part

of his campaign of harassment, to make me somebody who was seen as controversial. And the fact that there isn't a way of removing those records feeds into something everyone will know, which is there's no smoke without fire. So even though people might dismiss those reports, eventually, they start thinking, well, maybe there is something here, all because somebody didn't like the views that I stand for and couldn't engage in political and public debate in the appropriate way. So tell us, therefore, about the amendment that you are tabling today to the Victims' Bill. Yeah, well, as I say, it covers a wider series of circumstances, because we know in stalking harassment this happens. It would provide a process whereby a malicious report I mean this report has now

been confirmed by the courts to be malicious and vexatious could be removed from the record and therefore the impact that this can have can be finally taken away and my kids can go back to just being kids. Yeah on a personal, can you give us a sense of just how much it's impacted you as a mother? Well, one of the frustrations I have is that I really want to open up politics to a broader group of people. There aren't as many mums as I know

want to stand and get involved in politics. And one of the things that the judge said explicitly was he could see that this would deter people from standing in the public eye if they felt that their families were being targeted. I describe myself sometimes as what I call a Boudicca mum, you know, that you would go to war if somebody wants to hurt or harm your children as a way of getting at you. And that's how I feel about it. But I also recognise other women particularly are being targeted and dismissed and demeaned in the public realm for being mums, and that our politics doesn't work for them one of the reasons why I challenged the

police and I took this was not just about the fixation and knowing that this man was probably much more dangerous than they recognized it's also because I think we have to set a line in the stand you know I block very few people on social media I engage in debate I stand up for I've explicitly said look if you disagree with me on very controversial issues that's absolutely fine we need to be able to have the debate but surely we can all put a line in the sand that someone's family is beyond the pale and I also think we probably need legislation now to address the fact that people's family members their staff are being targeted as a way not to promote a debate but to try and shut one down you know it's not free speech if people are being intimidated or harassed in this way.

And we won't stand up for free speech and be able to have those robust debates if people are frightened their kids could be at risk. We will be following the progress of that amendment as it continues. But whilst we have you with us, the former Labour politician, Glenys Kinnock, died this weekend at the age of 79. Baroness Kinnock was the wife of former Labour leader Neil Kinnock and served as an MEP for 15 years. In March 2009, she announced she was standing down. She spoke to Jenny Murray about her decision.

Although retirement was not a word she was willing to use, Jenny asked her what it had been like to be the leader's wife when he was under attack from inside and outside the party. Yeah, and when I look back at it, I was probably quite naughty because I still continued to do the things I would have normally done, which was, you know, I spent a lot of time going back and forth to Greenham Common. I spent evenings on the pavements outside South Africa House. All those quite, you know, probably quite challenging things for people who'd never had the wife of any politician probably you know doing as much of that kind of thing as I did but I never felt then that I wanted to be a politician and I still don't think I am one I'm a campaigner

and that's what I still do. So why Europe and not Westminster? Westminster never appealed to me I don't like you, what is usually called the yaboo politics of Westminster. You know, lots of my friends, friends like Joan Ruddock, who I've known for many years, that's one of the things, you know, they talk about that they shout, the language is about hard hitters and the vocabulary is very male. In the European Parliament, it's not like that. You cannot function in the European Parliament unless you're interested in reaching consensus with your colleagues and compromise with your colleagues.

So it's not about the plotting and the planning, the kind of male way of operating that you see in Westminster. And it certainly is a way of working that suits women. I should say this wasn't her last interview on Woman's Hour and retirement had clearly not been in her intention. A year later, she was back on the programme talking to Jenny Murray, having been made a peer, a minister for Europe and then a minister of state for the Foreign Office, also leading the government's work tackling violence against women overseas. Clearly a remarkable woman. Stella Creasy, you overlapped in Parliament with Glenys Kinnock and knew her as a politician in her own right as well as through Neil Kinnock.

What was she like? She was extraordinary and it's a privilege to have been able to spend any time with Glenys at all. And I really want to speak, the impact of Glenys in her own right on the Labour movement, on fighting for international development, on standing up for our relationship with Europe

was extraordinary. And I just feel so strongly that we have lost a star in the firmament. I also, I don't think you can avoid the human impact because to see Neil and Glenys together, couple goals, I would describe it. They were both so proud of each other and willing each other on and so gorgeous to see together in terms of their love for each other and how they interacted with each other.

But Glenys also made a massive contribution, and I just want to make sure we recognise that in her own right, in terms of the work she did on international development, in terms of standing up against violence against women, and being that champion for Europe. It's extraordinary to think of the Labour movement without her, and I just think all of us are grieving, not just for Neil, but for their children,

who I know also were just tremendously proud of her as she was of them. From one strong woman to another, Labour leader Keir Starmer this weekend invoked Margaret Thatcher in a speech, praising her for her driving sense of purpose. Is it strange that more than 30 years after she left office,

that she still looms that large in our consciousness? I think it's probably an interesting indictment on the British politics, isn't it? That we still, when we think of women in politics, we're thinking of someone who was in power 30 years ago. I sometimes get asked if Margaret Thatcher has influenced me and I always ask, well, did Sylvia Berlusconi influence you? Because the idea that the woman has therefore been the every woman for all women in

politics look Margaret Thatcher clearly achieved a lot in her own lifetime in her own way and I think we can all recognise that was probably an incredibly hard thing to do because people judged her as a woman you can recognise that whilst also abhorring many of the things that she did to this country and many of us were driven into politics because we recognised the damage that she was doing in her position as Prime Minister. Stella Creasy, an absolute pleasure speaking to you here on Woman's Hour. Thank you for joining us and sharing that personal story and also we look forward to hearing more updates on those amendments to the victims bills that you are proposing today. Thank you for your time. Next, what do our shoe choices say about us? A new exhibition at the ARC

in Winchester in Hampshire called Shoes Inside Out looks at our relationship with our footwear from the functional and practical to the fashionable and extravagant. What can shoes tell us about our social history, modern lives and our aspirations?

Well, I'm joined by Claire Isbester, the co-curator of the exhibition, who's going to tell us more. So Claire, 70 pairs of shoes from your collection on show, and you're exploring how shoes have shaped and been shaped by society. Give us an example. Well, I suppose we could do a little scamper through the history. Yes, let's do that. They've undergone a significant change since they emerged in the 10th century in Persia and they were kind of part of development and war because the stirrup was invented that enabled men to sit more stably in the saddle and to carry heavier weapons but their feet would tend to slide out. So these shoes with heels on were developed at roughly the same time.

And then they were worn essentially by men. So heels were worn by men? That's right. Oh, really? Yeah. And there is records of Queen Elizabeth I's wardrobe, and it would appear that in about 1595 she ordered shoes with heels and arches they weren't particularly worn by women and it was possible that she was wearing them then to

emphasize her masculinity you know the the heart and stomach of a king and they carried on being worn by men throughout the 17th century Louis XIV made rules about who could or couldn't wear red heels. And it looks as though high heels were worn largely by courtesans to start with. But then by the 18th century, all women, wealthy women, I'm imagining, were wearing heels. But in the Enlightenment, it looks as if men started to think that they wanted to project themselves as rational creatures and high heels were irrational shoes and so they started to wear high heels were irrational shoes and women uh carried on wearing heels but then there seems to be perhaps it was more the development of the enlightenment it might have been a taste for um neoclassical simpler styles it caused them to fall out of fashion but it might have had something

to do with the development of the pavement and um how impractical they are well the pavements were developed in cities and there are there are accounts by american visitors talking about how people are walking on these pavements walking becomes a leisure activity and you can do that more easily in flat shoes so women start to wear flat shoes they fell out of high heels fell out of fashion for men and women for about 50 years well here's someone who's got in touch with us with their love of high heels and writes after ankle fusion surgery a year ago i had to give up any heel higher than one centimeter when handing over my beautiful high-heeled shoes and boots, the very shoes that

make you taller, feel leaner, that make outfits work so well, handing them over to the local charity shop, I cried, I cried and I had to explain the importance of each pair before letting go. I live now in a world of comfort and practicality. I do get about a lot more quickly though, yeah, the practicalities that I was talking about. And that's important, isn't it? Because that's a good example of how footwear needs to be functional, but it's moved from functional to being a fashion statement. That journey has been interesting, hasn't it?

Yeah, and I'm sure it has. And it started a long time ago, really. There were sumptuary laws passed in the 15th century um so those are laws that uh dictate make rules about consumption in particular of clothing and and footwear and there were rules about um people lower than a certain rank not being allowed to wear points on their shoes more than two inches long. Which seems like a really weird law, but it must have been more honoured in the breach than the observance because a year later there was a further law made restricting shoemakers in London from making that footwear. I want to understand how women's relationships with shoes differs from men's? Cool. If you've ever shopped for football boots or trainers with adolescent young men,

I think you'd see that men can feel just as passionately about their shoe choices as women can. And people make shoe choices to define their membership of a group, don't they? So choosing to wear Dr Martin boots might define you as part of a group. At one time, perhaps the group of skinheads. The blue suede shoe for the teddy boy was an incredibly important marker. Converse boots, again, people form groups. The winkle picker and the mods. They're men's shoes that they choose to define themselves as part of groups.

On the subject of Dr. Martin's, Carolyn's written in and said, shoes, I'm 55 and loving my age. However, I recently made the decision that I am probably too old for Doc Martens. Thank you, Carolyn. Oh, no, absolutely not, says Claire. What about keeping shoes as memories? Because there is a pair of unused children's shoes on show, isn't there? Yeah, sometimes things come into the Hampshire collection with a story associated with them. And this one, this pair came in, they'd never been worn. And it was because the child had died before she was able to wear them. And we do keep shoes, don't we, as kind of mementos. I'm moving house today.

And in the process of packing up, I came across the four pairs of shoes. I'd saved one from each of my children. And, you know, the first pair that they had. And, you know, I could remember them and they could remember them too. The sentimental value. Yeah. You've also gone out and bought a pair of ballet shoes to include explain that decision um frederick freed found a new way of making the blocks on

pointe shoes that were supposed to make them more comfortable and his advertising material in the 1920s says that he was going to make shoes to fit the dancer, not the dancer having to fit the shoes. So ballet shoes elongate the leg and you have a run of colour from thigh to toe, all the same all the way down. But Frederick Fried's shoes were all pink and they were clearly not made for dancers of colour. And in fact, the first brown ballet shoes

were made in this country, I think in 2018. I know. Which seems shockingly recent, doesn't it? So now, so we deliberately went out and bought a pair of shoes for a dancer who wanted to be brown from thigh to toe. And you've also deliberately... Put both neutral.

Yeah, and you've also deliberately exhibited an X-ray of some of the shoes too. Why, can I ask? We were interested in what else it would show. So would it show something about the construction that we weren't able to see from the outside? Whether people cared about their shoes enough to repair them? And there were some incredibly expensive silk shoes in the show that have been repaired. You'd think that nowadays people are wealthy enough to discard them, but these beautiful silk things were repaired. We'd hoped that it might show the imprint of the person that had worn them. There's one pair that you can see the hide mark. So the leather hide that was used to make the shoes, they're all marked when they've been tanned.

And you can see the hide mark inside the shoe. But they also produce these beautiful ethereal images hide that was used to make the shoes they're all marked with um when they've been tanned yeah and you can see the hide mark inside the shoe but they also produce these beautiful ethereal images and remind us to look at what's underneath as well as what's on the surface claire i've learned a great deal thank you so much co-curator of that new exhibition at the ark in winchester called shoes inside out looking at our relationship with our footwear and this message to end on a woman should wear the shoe which makes her feel the most gorgeous so that her swagger is most pronounced thanks for listening there's plenty more from woman's hour over at bbc sounds hello i'm kirsty work and this is the reunion reflecting on a shared news event, a cultural moment, or just the experience

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I do remember asking one of the guards, Brian's Irish, they've done nobody any harm. And there was a long pause and he said, Brian was a mistake. From the Brighton Bomb to Olympic Heroes. From when you're running a world record in Oslo with Seb Colchase to be on the last lap, or whether you're doing it in the Durham Schools Champs, the process is the same, it's just the context is very different. You can hear again all 200 editions of The Reunion.

Search for The Reunion on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.