Woman's Hour - Stella Gibbons, HMP Holloway, Sandra Horley

Episode Date: November 25, 2020

Stella Gibbons' first novel was Cold Comfort Farm. First published in 1932, it became an instant bestseller and made fun of country life. Another one of her novels called My American will be serialized on BBC Radio 4 next week. The writer Lynne Truss discusses Stella's life and work.Four years ago the largest women's prison in Western Europe, HMP Holloway in London, was closed. The building has huge historic significance. partly because of its links to the suffragettes, especially the Pankhurst sisters. But what will happen to the site now that the prison has gone?Refuge is the UK's largest domestic violence service. It has a network of refuges and community-based support, as well as a 24-hour helpline. Every year it supports 80,000 women and children. Sandra Horley has been Refuge’s Chief Executive for over 40 years. She comes onto Woman's Hour to talk about her time in charge.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello. It's Wednesday the 25th of November 2020. I'm Nicola Beckford and this is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. How are you? On today's Woman's Hour we'll be hearing from Sandra Hawley, the former Chief Executive of Refuge, who's retired after more than 40 years working to protect women and children from domestic violence. We'll also be finding out about the author Stella Gibbons,

who's best known for her novel Cold Comfort Farm. Novelist Lynn Truss will tell us why Gibbons should be remembered for so much more. And just so that you know, you can always text us here at Woman's Hour on 84844. That's 84844. But first, the largest women's prison in Western Europe, Holloway in London, closed four years ago. Since then, there's been quite a lot of wrangling, to be honest, over what kind of legacy there'll be for women on the site.

Now, it's a prime development spot in the middle of Islington in North London. When it went up for sale last year, it fetched £82 million. The plan is to build a mix of private and social housing there. But when the prison existed, it became a hub for all kinds of women's charities. So campaigners are insisting some of that's retained with a new women's centre built on the site. Well, our reporter Melanie Abbott is inside the prison for us this morning. Melanie. Yeah, I'm actually inside, as you may hear, the very echoey segregation and health care unit, which is where women would have been brought if they were at risk or perhaps at risk to others.

And I can go into one of the cells now. You can hear that clank and as I look there is a very low bunk made of plastic, no sharp edges, no metal to injure yourself on or to injure others with and as I walk around there's a tiny sink in the corner with push buttons for the tap so you can't possibly break the tap off

and use it in that way a very uh tiny toilet in the corner it is very atmospheric and really quite eerie being here and imagining that once there were a lot a lot of prisoners here now of course it's hard to believe that it's only four years since it's closed the paint paint is peeling off the walls. There's a mould everywhere. This is though a 10-acre site and the plan is to build around a thousand homes here. But as you said, there has been much discussion about a women's building here as well to replace some of the services that would have been offered when this was the prison. Lucy is a campaigner from Reclaim Holloway. Now the campaign for a woman's building started pretty much immediately Lucy. What's happened over the last four years?

Well Reclaim Holloway and the community have been working together to actually look at what is actually needed for a women's building. So there's been a lot of awareness raising and a lot of discussion with Peabody and the council to try and form what the women's building would actually be. The council have produced a draft brief that is approximately 1,200 square metres and the community and Reclaim Holloway have fed into the feedback from this draft brief,

and so we're currently at a position where we're waiting to see the response to that feedback. 1,200 square metres, is that what you envisaged? Is that what you hoped for? Reclaim Holloway suggests that it should be substantially more than that, because if you actually provide space for all the services to come together under one roof so that they can work together and refer together there would need

to be a lot more space just to accommodate those services organizations as charities as well as having art therapy classes and therapy and maybe a legacy space and all sorts of what we would call resettlement that would help women actually reintegrate back into the community. The prison closed in July 2016 and women prisoners had either been released or sent off to other prisons in a gradual way up to that date. But earlier I spoke to the very last prisoner to leave. The atmosphere was really sad.

Everyone was just really, really sad. We'd spent a few months clearing cells, clearing association areas, the gym, things. On that last day, the officers made a card of honour for me. And every one of the officers, they put their arms up. And as I come out of there, I thought it was so surreal. I thought this is history in the making. I am the last ever woman to be released from this prison, this magnificent building that's been standing here for over 150 years. That moment will stay with me forever.

What was the officer's reaction to the closure? The officers were very, very upset and all. But some of the officers I remember vividly, I won't name her name, but she'd worked there nearly 30 years. I felt so sorry for her. She said it was like losing a child to her because she'd seen so many girls come in and out over them years. She'd literally grown up with them girls. And it wasn like losing a child to her because she'd seen so many girls come in and out over them years. She'd literally grown up with them girls. And it wasn't just a prison, it was a support network for a lot of people, you know, with mental health issues, addiction. How did you fare personally during your time in prison?

You either get on or get in trouble, really. I personally done quite a lot of long-distance learning courses in there. I tried to be a listener, which is like a Samaritan. I actually worked in Holloway Hub, which was a place, as they come out of the prison, it was just basically in the building attached to the prison, but the other side of the gate. And they could come in on their release, get clothes for nothing, phone up the benefits agencies to set up claims.

Personally, for me, it was just the routine that got me back. You know, and in mindset, you can either do the hard time or take it to your advantage. How's life now for you? Prison is only a part of your sentence. I've been out, like, over three years now, but my sentence still carries with me because every time I apply for a job, I have to declare, things like that.

I managed to get a job last year, but obviously because of the pandemic, I got furloughed in April, got made redundant in September. And it will more than likely take me another few years to get another job, purely because I have to declare this on my thing. You know, and it goes for so many women. When I was released, I had the picture taken with the governor at the time, but I asked specifically to have my face pixeled out because obviously I've got family and I don't want, you know, I don't want it carrying around for me. But I can honestly say that the officers were just as upset as the prisoners.

That was the last prisoner to leave, and I can assure you there was nothing untoward about those police sirens there. Now, we heard there, Lucy, that last prisoner speaking about some of the services that were here then. What services, you talked about some of the services, but how far can it replicate, do you think, what was here when we had that holloway hub um i mean there was housing services there was services for foreign nationals there's um drug and alcohol services therapy services art therapy services education departments so all of those together plus plus things for maybe domestic violence, all those together will help women. And not just for women who've been through the criminal justice

system? I think if you help women that have been through the criminal justice system, you help everybody. There has been debate about whether this women's building should just be for women. What do you think? I's building should just be for women. What do you think? I think there should definitely be women-only services within the women's building. But women have families. Women need to meet friends, family. Those family members may have to be somewhere while the woman is accessing her services. So then the community needs to have access to this building,

so there's some sort of integration with the community. So, yes, I think women-only services, definitely, but lots of shared services, so maybe timescale basis, and lots of general services for everybody. Because it will sit in the middle of a housing development there's envisaged that there'll be play areas there'll be shops and so forth can there be a good integration do you think? I think that for instance all the commercial services could be women led and led by the women's building and that would empower women and young entrepreneurs.

The community needs to not have a building that they stigmatize. They need to be involved in this building and benefit from it themselves. Not just come and go and leave. Now, some people might think this place, the prison that we're standing in now, it did house serious criminals. There were grim times here. It's got a very, very checkered past. Some people might think it's better to forget all of that and just have a lovely new housing development. We have 170 years of history on this site. The suffragettes were here. Many, many famous people have been housed here.

There are so many stories that need to be saved and recorded and honoured. And a real legacy for the prison will be that fewer women end up going to prison. Lucy, thank you very much for that. Now, this campaign is going to be long running. Hopefully, Nicola, Woman's Hour can return to this subject in the months and probably the years to come. Absolutely. Melanie, thank you. And really, really fascinating to hear how emotional that woman was being the final prisoner to leave and

how the guards even made a guard of honour when she left. Absolutely fascinating. Now, we do have a response from Islington Council, and they say the council campaigned hard to ensure that the site would be used to benefit the community, including a women's building for vulnerable women. And they've developed a draft brief, they say, for that in consultation with the local groups and women's organisations, including those in the criminal justice system. And those views will be passed to the developer. And the developer told us that it is working with the local community and the council

and will unveil a draft master plan early next year. Well, I'm joined now in the studio by Ros Currie. And Ros is the curator of Islington Museum and she led the Echoes of Holloway Prison project when the prison closed. So, Ros, thank you so much for joining me this morning. Hello. Hi. Now, for those of us who don't know an awful lot about Holloway Prison, maybe you're not from London, you're outside of London, why was the building so significant and why is the place so notorious? Well, when it closed, it was the largest women's prison in Western Europe. As Lucy said, it opened in 1852,

but it became an all-women's prison in 1902 with a crash, with facilities for women specifically. And because it was so large, it really became notorious. So I think, as has already been mentioned, the suffragettes were there, and it really became a kind of byword for women, for women in prison. On TV, if someone's taken to prison,

they're normally taken to Holloway. And that still happens, even though it's closed. It really became a notorious place, a kind of dark place in the public imagination. And what our project, actually, Echoes of Holloway Prison, sought to do was look behind the walls and really understand the experiences of women, rather than this kind of more salacious, nasty side that unfortunately we as humans are quite fascinated by. Tell me more about, you know, you say you looked behind the walls. What do you mean by that? So what we did was record oral histories. And because the prison was closing, so we're the local museum for Islington. And Holloway Prison represented a community in Islington

that we could never get at we as the public, we never see inside prisons we don't understand what goes on there and so with it closing we knew all the stories of those who'd been held there would just disappear so we recorded oral histories with former prisoners with all of the different staff so prison officers, prison governors, health staff,

charity workers, volunteers. The number of people that work in a prison like that is unbelievable, the number of different groups and the number of different support services. And we really wanted to capture this kind of vast, moving, integrated place, which is, yeah. Fascinating, absolutely fascinating. So you touch upon the suffragettes.

Tell me more about some of the women who were held there. So the suffragettes were held there. There were also five women were actually executed there, including Ruth Ellis, who was the last woman to be hanged in the UK in 1955. There were other kind of notorious individuals like Myra Hindley was there, some IRA prisoners were there but there were also protesters so you had as well as the suffragettes you had the women of Green and Common and then the many many women who happened to be in prison. I know in the 90s there were kind of stories of women going to prison for not paying their TV license you don't always have to do something really wrong to be in prison. And I think it's important to remember a lot of the people in prison are people who've been unlucky and happened to be there.

And we wanted to capture that, that kind of range of people who were in prison. And when you spoke to those women, you know, some of those women you say who may have been sent down for unpaying a TV licence. What was there? What did they tell you? Did they feel that that was unjust? I have to say, generally, when I've been talking to women who've been in prison, they don't always talk about the sentence. They might do, but really, mostly, they're thinking about getting their head down. And another thing that came across, I think, really well with the last woman prisoner you talked about

was the fact that Holloway became a home for many of them. And so for many women who did petty crime, maybe they had drug and alcohol abuse issues and were in and out of prison, they got used to Holloway and they got used to the prison officers. So their crimes kind of became irrelevant to them when they were in there. It was more that they knew it as a

place. I mean, it is really important, obviously, to point out that some women have committed some horrendous crimes as well. So, you know, that's really, really important to mention. And you mentioned some of the campaigning women. Tell me a little bit more about that. Well, one of the reasons why we've had prison reform in this country is women going to prison, seeing the conditions and then beginning campaigning organisations. So some of the suffragettes actually started that, started prison reform, having seen the conditions women were kept in. During World War Two, you had pacifists going into prison, again, campaigners who were shocked and horrified at the conditions. The Green and Women, they actually made a kind of guide to Holloway, how you would survive Holloway. And then you've got women like Chris Tchaikovsky, who set up Women in Prison, which is a campaigning organisation, again, to support women in prison, to campaign for improved conditions in prison as well. There have been, I mean, I think Melanie and Melanie's guests touched upon it earlier on, you know, the charities that were set up to support women in Holloway over the time it was open. Which ones survive today?

So there's quite a lot. A lot of them are based in Islington as well. But the ones that I've had particular contact with are birth companions. They provide support for women giving birth in prison. So women generally give birth in hospital, but often their families can't get there in time. So imagine being in labour on your own in your cell. Birth companions give you someone to be there with you. Hibiscus, they support non-British national women. So women, maybe they're in there for asylum offences,

maybe they're in for drugs offences for lots of different reasons, but they can't necessarily speak the language. Nobody in prison can speak the language. They need support. And then Phoenix Futures, they give support for drug and alcohol issues and women with drug and alcohol problems. I've already mentioned Women in Prison.

There's an organisation called Treasures. They support women coming out of prison because a major problem is women not having anywhere to go when they leave prison not having a job, not having a house, not having anything and Treasures gives support there I just wanted to ask you actually because you touched upon it

asylum seekers, I'm just wondering about how the ethnic mix of inmates changed over the years can you tell me that very briefly? I'm not really sure. I mean, I have to say, I think more women, more non-national women have come in while you've got asylum seekers there.

But I think, I mean, the thing about Holloway is it was a London prison. So as we know, more black and minority ethnic women are in prison as a proportion than of the general population. And one of the things about Holloway is because it had prison staff, prison officers from the local London area, they also kind of reflected that racial diversity. And so I think Holloway felt like a London prison. And for that, it was comfortable for the women there in that way because they felt themselves reflected there. Roz, thank you so much. It's been really, really fascinating talking to you this morning. Thanks also to Lucy from Reclaim Holloway and the former inmate of Holloway for sharing her experience.

Now, on tomorrow's programme, we're going to be talking about an issue which will affect nearly all of us in one way or another. And that's because from next week, around a million students will start a rapid COVID testing programme aimed at getting them home safely to their families for Christmas. Now, I'll be speaking to the President of the National Union of Students, that's Larissa Kennedy, about what's been a really difficult first term in terms of tuition. Of course, that's all been going online, lockdown, social distancing,

as well as the testing plans. And then on Friday, Jane will be following up with an interview with the university's minister, Michelle Donovan. Now, you know, we do love hearing from you. So do get in touch with us on Twitter or on email. You can do that by emailing the Woman's Hour inbox with your thoughts about the exodus. Are you looking forward to seeing your children home? But are you worried about the possible health impact on your older family members if they're visiting you at Christmas? Or maybe you're a student. How likely are you to actually get the testing done?

Or maybe, like my neighbour, actually, you're a member of university staff. Now, she was telling me the other day that they're really burnt out just because of all the changes that have been happening. And also the students are really, you know, they've been doing their best. But, you know, it's a really difficult time, isn't it? So do get in touch. Text Woman's Hour on 84844. And don't forget, of course, if you miss the live programme, you can always catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app.

Search for Woman's Hour and you'll find all of our episodes. Click on an episode and you can listen right away or you can download it later, of course. And you can also subscribe to Woman's Hour so you'll never, ever miss a programme. And I'm sure you wouldn't want to do that. Don't forget about Instagram as well, because we are also quite down with the kids. That's at BBC Woman's Hour. Next this morning, I'm going to be talking to a woman who has been on our programme many times over the years. Sandra Hawley has been the chief executive of Refuge for the last four decades.

She's recently retired and Refuge, of course, I'm sure I don't really need to tell you this, but it's the UK's largest domestic violence service. The charity helps up to 80,000 women and children each year. And next year, it celebrates 50 years since it opened the world's first refuge in Chiswick in London. Sandra Hawley joins me on the line now. Sandra, good morning. Good morning, Nicola. How are you?

I'm fine, thank you. Thank you for inviting me onto the programme. Not at all, not at all. It's lovely to talk to you. Now, yeah, 40 years in the domestic violence arena. Goodness, that's a long time, isn't it? Yes, it's been a very long journey and I'm very proud of Refuge's achievements. And it hasn't been without challenge. But, you know, we're a wonderful organisation supporting six and a half thousand women and children on any given day and we answer hundreds of calls on the national domestic abuse helpline that is run by Refuge and I notice I'm

saying we I have in fact as you mentioned recently retired from Refuge and I'm looking forward to doing new things. Wonderful wonderful now let me just take you all the way back to the beginning of your work in the domestic violence arena. You started off working with abused and homeless women in Wolverhampton. That's kind of my neck of the woods, actually, because I'm from the Midlands. Oh, really? Yeah, so I know it well. And you were the organiser of the Haven Project. You then became the chief executive of Refuge in 1983.

What were your memories of the Refuge when you first arrived in the 80s? Well, nothing could have prepared me for what I saw on that first day of work in the Chiswick Refuge. I can only describe it as being something straight out of Dickens, a run-down, eight-bedroom Victorian house with women and children sleeping head to toe on mattresses on the floor, anywhere they could find space. There were cockroaches, mice, holes in the wall. It was just shocking. And women lived in this terrible situation, but often said to me they would rather live in the squalor than to be terrified at home with a violent partner. At least they were safe. And the other thing just to

say is that there was no money for the refuge really and we lurched from one financial crisis to another. The helpline, the original helpline was in the Chiswick Refuge lounge and calls were diverted to my bedside telephone when I went home in the evenings and at weekend and I am proud to say that now the refuge helpline is run on very professional lines after these very basic beginnings What was a typical day like back in those days? Oh, it was very dynamic. We were dealing with emergencies all day long. I witnessed horrific abuse.

I'll never forget one of the first women I supported, a woman whose husband had taken a hammer and a chisel to her face. Many people who've heard me speak, and probably on this program, will remember this example, but I mention it again because it particularly shocked me so early on in my work with abused women. The woman had 250 stitches. There was no skin on her face which was not stitched together. I had to feed her liquids through a straw, There was no skin on her face which was not stitched together. I had to feed her liquids through a straw.

And it was really at that moment that I made myself a promise that I would always use my voice for women whose voices weren't being heard, that I would do whatever it took to keep them safe. I also was very distressed to see some of the injuries experienced by pregnant women. Research shows that pregnancy can be a trigger for domestic abuse. And it was really tragic and distressing to witness, you know, the huge emotional trauma, the injuries, at a time when pregnant women particularly need to feel cared for and supported by their partners. You know, I remember meeting a woman who came to the refuge with her stomach covered in bruising. She was seven months pregnant and her husband had kicked her repeatedly in the stomach

and unfortunately the baby was stillborn and when I asked the police this you know the attitudes were very different then when I asked the police officer about arresting and pressing charges against the husband the officer said to me well it is a domestic and nothing we can do really. Technically, this wasn't true because even back then they did have the powers to arrest and charge. But after a few moments of reflection, the officer did seem concerned and he said to me, well, we could try prosecuting him under the Infant Life Preservation Act 1929, but it probably won't be successful. So that was just an example of what things were like when I first started. And

now I hope people will refer to the 2020 Domestic Abuse Bill, which is about to be enacted. That's almost 100 years or nine years shy between the two acts of Parliament. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just wondering, you know, very briefly, when you were working with these women who had really violent partners, did you ever feel in danger? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, running refuge and working with survivors of abuse hasn't been easy. Sometimes I was threatened and followed by perpetrators. Men would try and did break into our refuges. I remember one occasion where I was downstairs in the kitchen of this really grotty, dilapidated refuge. I heard a lot of screaming upstairs and I rushed up and discovered all these children ranging from, you know, young children to teenagers, trying to slam the door shut.

And I saw a man's foot in the door and I helped the children between us all. We just pushed and pushed and the man was prevented from coming into the refuge. And I'm sure he had a very sore foot afterwards. But it, you know, it can be dangerous work. And we must never underestimate the risks involved, risk to women and to the staff and the children living in our services. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you've touched upon at the start the vast numbers of women and children that your organisation has helped. I mean, you were awarded the OBE in 1999

for services to the protection of women and children and also the CBE in 2011 for services for the prevention of domestic violence. But, of course, in such a long career, there have been challenges along the way. A couple of years ago, there were complaints by some former staff about an alleged toxic culture of refuge. Now, those were independently investigated

and the Charity Commission were satisfied with the actions taken by Refuge. How was that period of time for you? Well, I'm really glad to have an opportunity to respond to this. I've worked with abused women since the late 70s, as you've said, over four decades ago. I was Refuge's CEO for 37 years until I retired a few weeks ago. And 37 years must be a record in this country. Not many people in my

position or in public life have lasted that long. And this was the first complaint in 37 years. And if that is the case, I take that record. I have worked with amazing people doing groundbreaking work and Refuge does truly wonderful, worthwhile things, saving lives and changing lives. You know, I've worked with people for many decades, amazing people. They are friends, and they will always be my friends. And we were united in a purpose,

which is to help women who felt that no help was available. We persuaded governments and institutions to see domestic violence for what it is. It's a crime, a serious crime, if not more serious than other crimes, because the victim lives with her violent attacker. She lives with a fear that governs every move, never knowing when the next attack might place. That's why we get out of bed in the morning. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm just curious, though, you know, thinking about those allegations,

Sandra, how do you think things got to that point? It's very hard to know. There were some inaccuracies in the press coverage, which can be rebutted. But at the time, we felt it was inappropriate to respond. And Refuge is a very strong professional organization. And the culture is very positive. As I say, this was the first complaint in 37 years of delivering emergency services. And I stand by my record. You know, I'm willing to bet that this is some kind of a record. So, you know, I work with amazing people.

We do amazing work. It's been a long career, as you say. Yes. You know, there's not much else I can add to it, really. I'm sure that, you know, nobody would dispute the work that you do. Do you regret that episode, though? One always learns from situations and every organisation evolves and changes. But I'm very proud of what we've achieved at Refuge, what I've achieved, what my very dedicated talented staff and senior leadership team have achieved. That's what we need to focus on. The early days were very tough.

As I said earlier, the original helpline was in the Refuge lounge. Calls were diverted to my bedside. We are really passionate, the staff and I are really passionate about the work we do. We see results every day. We have a strong sense of purpose. And we get out of bed in the morning to do important groundbreaking, life-saving work. The staff are very happy working together and delivering these life-saving and life-changing services. Absolutely. I think I've just about got enough time, about a minute, to ask you what you're most proud of, Sandra. Oh, that's a very big question. I mean, well, there's so many things, Nicola. There's no one particular event. Seeing a once terrified, traumatised woman's face when she was leaving the refuge made me very proud. Getting a woman over the line from despair and despondency to hope and happiness, helping a woman believe that there is life for her and her children, life beyond abuse, saving lives and changing lives. That's what motivated me. And, you know, that's why I do the work or did the work I do. And I really look forward to doing good things.

And in the future, I think I'm young enough and my greatest achievements are ahead of me, I hope. Absolutely. Absolutely. Sandra, it's been a real pleasure talking to you this morning. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. And that was Sandra Hawley, 42 years as Chief Executive of Refuge, now off to enjoy her retirement. Next this morning, I saw something nasty in the woodshed.

That's a memorable line from Stella Gibbons' Cold Comfort Farm, or if you're from my generation, from the band The Divine Comedy, if you haven't read the book. But how many other works by Gibbons can you name? Now, she was actually quite a prolific writer, but she's largely been forgotten. Her work, My American, is next week's midday serial. So we haven't forgotten it.

That's a good thing. Well, joining me now to discuss Gibbons is the writer Lynn Truss. Lynn, good morning. Good morning, Nicola. Hello. How are you doing? I'm well, thank you. Marvellous, marvellous. Now then, you've described Stella Gibbons as the Jane Austen of the 20th century. Why do you think that? It was a bit of a claim, wasn't it? I think because of the theme that she she goes back to again and again

which is basically sense and sensibility so um I do see her as a great great follower of Jane Austen and also as a beautiful stylist as well so um yes it was a large claim but I stand half-bite that's marvelous that's fair enough like that like that now but if somebody hasn't read Cold Comfort Farm how would you describe it to new readers? What do they really need to know? Well, it's a wonderful book, Cold Comfort Farm, and it stood the test of time brilliantly. It was written in 1932, which is a pretty long time ago. And at the time it was written, it was seen very much as a parody of a particular style of novel that was very popular at the time,

the Loam and Lovechild School, which were these rural tragedies, rural melodramas where people were wallowing in doom and pity in the countryside. And what Stella Gibbons had read quite a lot of these in her early years, she was a literary critic, I suppose, and ran book pages. And she wanted to parody them. And she had this brilliant idea of inserting into one of these stories, a modern young woman who, like Alice in Wonderland, comes along and is completely confused and perplexed by why people would dwell on misery when the nature is very lovely, when, in fact, they've got quite good lives if they would only stop wallowing. And if they would only stop referring to the nasty thing they saw in the woodshed, they could get on with their lives. So it's a bit like Alice in Wonderland, you know, going in and subverting and transforming the characters into something more positive. Fantastic, fantastic. Well, I'll tell you what, should we listen to Stella Gibbons herself

talking to Woman's Hour in 1974, nearly 50 years ago, all about Cold Comfort Farm. Her interviewer is Pamela Howe. I think I've been very, very lucky indeed. I've done, as far as writing is concerned, I've done exactly what I would have liked to have done best. I've written a book that I know has made a lot of people laugh and cheered a lot of people up. When you wrote it, you'd been in journalism for about 10 years. You were in your late 20s. Yes. You published a book of poetry. What was the spark that started Cold Comfort Far More? Well, I was on the Evening Standard.

I had been on the Evening Standard. I'd just left it and gone on to The Lady. And I had been reviewing books for the Evening Standard, and many of them were of a very earthy type. They were dealing with country life and assuming that because people lived in the country they behaved much more violently i've always loved the country and it seemed to me that these books presented a picture of the country that was not like the country i knew and loved and so i was moved to write a book making fun of those kind of books. Also, I grew up in a family which had very violent tempers and was inclined

to take a very dramatic view of things. And I think this was in the background and possibly in now what would now be called my subconscious when I wrote the book. I have the feeling, I may be quite wrong, that you wrote the book in a fine frenzy of comic inspiration and very quickly am i right or not yes you're quite right and i used to um stay behind in the offices of the lady and write after office hours sometimes not very late but i used to do that and i would also in those days you could occasionally get a seat in the tube when you were coming home and i used to write it in the tube and i wrote it on backs of envelopes and I used to read it aloud to the two girls with whom I was working on the lady when we had lunch and we

used to wait for the latest installment we all used to laugh and laugh and I suppose the things you were sending up this intensity about life and over emphasis on sex and Mr. Maybach, the intellectual. These are enduring things to be sent up and made fun of, aren't they? I mean, they're just as relevant today. Yes, I think they are, perhaps especially the sex a bit even more relevant. That's just wonderful. How do you feel listening to that from 50 years ago? Oh, I'm so glad to hear her voice.

I've never heard it before. So that was quite wonderful. And very encouraging because it's my own take on her work. Just marvellous. Just marvellous. I think, you know, I love to think, I'm sort of imagining them sitting there with tiaras on or something like that. I think we need to bring that back.

Let's bring that back. Wonderful, wonderful piece of audio there. Let's have a look at the carriage. Yes yes I know it was just brilliant brilliant let's have a look at the central character Flora Post how would you describe her well she is this modern young woman and um and she just um she she doesn't understand why people should behave in this way. And so she just tries to be helpful and show them up. She adheres to something called the higher common sense. And so I don't see her much as an actual character. I think she's more of a device, really, in the book.

But it works terrifically well. And I'm so glad that it's still so popular. I mean, is it still funny? I mean, you know, what makes it a comic novel? Well, the writing is gorgeous. The writing is very, very funny. So she's terribly good at bathos, which is, you know, to use a sort of high-flown passage of natural description and then add something. And will it might do or something, you you know a very sort of beautiful undercutting

comment that all will always work it's it's it's beautifully written and and what do we learn about the attitudes towards uh women at the time through some of the male characters can you tell me about that oh i've never even thought about it um i i don't know i think she doesn't make i don't think that's an important thing for her really um i suppose you know we do have this literary that's given um you know that's given sort of license by laurentian ideas of of sex so she's she's very wary of that she's and she's very she's very um she's very conscious of it and very good very cut it down. So I suppose there was something that was going on in the background to the book that she got out of her system in Cold Comfort Farm.

Right, right. Now, turning to Gibbons herself, now she had quite a difficult childhood, didn't she? What was it like? Well, she had a very, as she said in the piece, there was a lot of violence and bad temper in her in her family her father was sounds like a ghastly man he was very he was a gp and much respected as a gp i think was very brisk which i think she perhaps was too

but he um yes he would he was always wallowing in self-misery and always threatening to commit suicide and that kind of thing. And she just noticed that he enjoyed it. She noticed as well that it was a way of manipulating other people, that if you if you come and assist out that you're very miserable and that you've got a reason to be, then other people have to it gives you a license to do exactly what you like. And she really didn't. She really did not respect that. So, yeah, there was a sort of she once asked him, will you ever be happy, father? And he said, never, never, though seated at the right hand of God. You know, so if someone's been it's it's that melodrama is that sort of heightening that she she's very concerned always to puncture. Yeah, yeah. Now, her novel, My American,

has been serialised for Radio 4 starting next week. What's that story about? Without giving any spoilers, of course. Oh, no spoilers. Well, this was written in 1939 and I think it's a very interesting contrast to A Cold Comfort Farm because she wrote it at a time of high, you know, obviously great tension,

pre-Second World War. Everyone knew it was coming. They were very anxious about it. She lost a child. She had a miscarriage the year before. And so what it's about, actually, is a young woman who is born a writer. She knows she wants to be a writer and she writes her way out of misery. You know, it's her way of, it's escapism. And so she writes, the character writes escapist literature, and My American is escapist literature at the same time. And I think it's just really beautifully, it comes together very beautifully, that it is a way of using your imagination to transcend the ghastly time you're in.

So it's quite a romantic book. But Edith Hart is someone who is just driven to write and who is obviously autobiographical. She talks about when her novel starts to run. And you just know when she writes that, that that's exactly how Stella Gibbons felt when she was writing a novel too. Interesting. Interesting. And it was all about the writing for her, wasn't it? I mean, are there any biographical themes in My American? I don't think so.

I don't think she, I don't know if, I was sort of very taken by the idea of she, as a child, this is the main character, meets a boy who is American. She meets him outside Kenwood House in the very first opening scene and uh and he is so it's such an exotic figure to her and he she she's so excited to meet someone from america now you're not going to give us any spoilers are you lynn no that's enough but um but you know i actually feel i identify with that even though i'm so much you know i was born in the 50s if i'd met an american when i was 10 you know, I actually feel I identify with that, even though I'm so much, you know, I was born in the 50s. If I'd met an American when I was 10, an American boy when I was 10 years old, I'd have been rather excited by that.

Indeed. Indeed, indeed, indeed, indeed, indeed. I'm going to have to stop you there, Lynn. Trust it's been wonderful talking to you this morning. My American by Stella Gibbons is read by Jan Ravens and it's going to be serialised at midday throughout the week on Radio 4. So let's finish off with a few emails and tweets from you. So here's one from Maggie about the future of HMP Holloway, the site there. Fascinating listening to the history and stories of hashtag Holloway prison on Woman's Hour. I remember walking past there regularly in the 90s and feeling the misery seeping through the walls. Here's another email. This one is about Sandra Hawley from Paul who says,

when Chiswick Women's Refuge was set up in the late 1970s by Erin Pizzi, I was working as a controller for a minicab company in King Street, Hammersmith. I wasn't told where the refuge was, but my drivers knew. I'm proud to have been a point of contact for women needing the refuge. And it's pleasing to see how much things have improved since then. Now, Linda also contacted us about Stella Gibbons. And Linda says, I still have my mother's two copies of the book, The Penguin Edition from 1951. I remember her reading it on several occasions and chuckling over it. I've just listened to the old radio version on Radio 4 Extra. Really enjoyed it. And of course, she was talking about Cold Comfort Farm. And here's Beverly contacting us on a tweet. And she says, Cold Comfort Farm is the funniest Radio 4 adaptation I've ever heard. Brilliant. Thank you. On tomorrow's programme, Audrey Hepburn

was a legendary star of Hollywood's golden age. We all know her for her wonderful style and her acting. But what do we know about the real woman behind the image? We'll be speaking to Helena Cohn, the director of a new film about Audrey. Now, after a difficult first term of online tuition, lockdowns and social distances, for university students, it's been a really, really difficult time. For Monday, the government's launching the COVID testing regime to try and get millions of students back home. I'll be talking to the President of the National Union of Students, Larissa Kennedy. We're also going to be talking to two more remarkable women from the Women's Hour Power

List, Our Planet, Caroline Mason and Catherine Howarth. Now they're going to be telling me how they're going to be making finance greener. And we'll also be catching up with chef, writer and co-founder Marie Mitchell. She's going to be exploring Caribbean food and culture with me. I'm really looking forward to it. So join me tomorrow at two minutes past 10. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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