Woman's Hour - Sticky floor jobs, Kiena Dawes, The Mare, Badass Gran

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

The term ‘sticky floor’ refers to the difficulties women face in progressing to higher-paid and higher-powered job roles whilst balancing the demands of their careers with personal, unpaid responsibilities. They can get stuck at lower levels, leaving the most senior positions to be occupied by, predominantly, men. Nuala McGovern discusses some of the reasons and solutions with Claire Reindorp, CEO of Young Women’s Trust, and Lucy Kellaway, former journalist, now economics teacher and co-founder of Now Teach.A Lancashire jury has found Ryan Wellings not guilty of the manslaughter of 23-year-old Kiena Dawes. Wellings, who was Kiena's boyfriend, was found guilty of controlling and coercive behaviour and assault between January 2020 and July 2022. He had denied all the charges against him, and will be sentenced at a later date. During the trial, the jury heard that Kiena had left a note claiming she was murdered and that Wellings had killed her before she took her own life. Joining Nuala to discuss this case are BBC reporter Yunus Mulla, Crown Prosecution Service domestic abuse lead Kate Brown and Director of the Centre for Women's Justice Harriet Wistrich.Hermine Braunsteiner was the first person to be extradited from the US for Nazi war crimes. She was one of a few thousand women who had worked as a concentration camp guard and was nicknamed ‘the Mare’ by prisoners because of her cruelty; she kicked people to death. In 1964, Hermine’s past was unknown: She was living a quiet existence as an adoring suburban housewife in Queens, New York when she was tracked down by a reporter from The New York Times who exposed her past. Angharad Hampshire, a Research Fellow at York St John University, joins Nuala to talk about The Mare, her novel based on Hermine’s life.Known as Badass Gran to her Instagram followers, Celia Duff is a double world Hyrox champion after taking up the races at 68. After retiring from her career as a doctor in public health medicine, the 70 year old dedicates her time to an impressive fitness regime that includes yoga, pilates, running, strength and conditioning, Olympic weightlifting six times a week, and now she’s fitter and stronger than ever.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. You may have heard how hard it is for women to break through the glass ceiling. But what about the sticky floor? That is where workers, mainly women, stay or are stuck in those lower ranking and lower paid jobs with barriers to career advancement.

Some are concerned that taking a career risk for a higher paying job might destabilise their carefully constructed family and work arrangements. I'm wondering whether this resonates with you. Are you holding back until some of your caring responsibilities are reduced before going for that bigger job, career advancement? We're going to talk about it this hour.

If you would like to share your story, you can text the programme. The number is 84844. Maybe it's something you have been through on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 03 700 100 444. Also today, Angharad Hampshire will be with us. Her new novel, The Mayor, tells the horrifying and compelling story of a woman who was a guard at a Nazi female concentration camp. It explores how an ordinary woman could descend so quickly into evil and also the role played by government propaganda, ideology, fear and cognitive dissonance

that is coming up. Also this hour, we're going to speak to a woman called Celia Duff. Now, she is an endurance champion and she took up competing in very intense workouts in her late 60s. We're going to hear why Celia is doing what many women her age are not. That's all coming up.

But let me begin with a distressing court case which concluded yesterday with a Lancashire jury finding a man not guilty of the manslaughter of 23-year-old Kiana Dawes. Ryan Wellings, the boyfriend of the young mother, was found guilty of controlling and coercive behaviour and also of assault between January 2020 and July 2022. He has denied all charges against him. He will be

sentenced at a later date. Now during the trial, Preston Crown Court heard that Kiana had left a note claiming she was murdered and that Wellings had killed her before she took her own life. Joining me to discuss this case is BBC reporter Eunice Muller. Welcome to the programme, Eunice. You were in court.

Can you fill us in on some of the details of this case, which is the first trial of its kind? Yes, good morning. The trial itself lasted around seven weeks and I have to say, sitting there, listening to some of the evidence was difficult. We were shown distressing images throughout the trial of assaults that had taken place against Kiana. We were shown body worn camera footage taken by police officers when they arrived. Often Kiana was sobbing and extremely distressed

at the situation she was in. Now, she met Ryan Wellings back in January 2020. She was described as someone who was bright, popular. Her mum said yesterday she was fun-loving. She was kind and sensitive and extremely popular with the clients. She was a hairdresser in Fleetwood. So when she met Ryan Wellings back in January 2020 it appeared that it was a fairy tale that was the word used in court you know he had her name tattooed on his neck within a week he proposed

marriage within three months but very quickly this turned into what was described as a nightmare for her. From the very beginning, we were told about this jealous behaviour, this anger that Ryan Wellings would have when he was challenged, and there were a number of different attacks and assaults against her. We were given examples that she told police about in one incident very early on. An iPhone cable, for example, was just to try and strangle her but there were also repeated incidents where she was slapped across the face and attacked when police were caught in one incident in august 2021 she was sat heavily pregnant on her bed and she told she was sobbing constantly throughout this 15 minute video and she told police that he had previously assaulted her and that there was this demeaning and belittling

behavior as well as the assault so for example he would take her shoes he would take her jewelry he would take her money and that she felt she had no one that she could turn to. Now, at the time, she was heavily pregnant, and she said that he would threaten her. Now, she had a mental health condition, which is usually what we're told about, an emotional personality disorder, which meant that she had poor self-esteem, difficulty in relationships as well. And he would say to her, you call police and that baby will be taken off you. So there were these constant, constant threats. And we were taken through this timeline throughout this trial, culminating on the 11th of July when there was an assault.

We were played that distressing phone call that was made to police. When she's tearful, she describes how there's blood on her phone. It was quite difficult to hear what she was saying for anyone, especially the jury, so they had to make their mind on the evidence presented to them. So after that assault on the 11th of July 2022, police arrived the next day and Ryan Wellings was arrested for assault but then released on bail and 11 days later that's when Kiana Dawes left her nine-month-old baby with a friend

at a friend's house her son was in the shower she just left the baby bed and drove to a country lane and took her own life. And with that, people will have heard, and these details are very distressing, as you mentioned, Eunice, that we are hearing about this particular case. She did leave a note on her phone before she took her own life, which I suppose is really central to this case as well. He was not convicted of manslaughter and denies all the charges. But can you tell us about that note? Yes, I can. So what Kiana did from the very beginning, she had a habit of writing down everything that was happening to her. So she wrote that on her phone. Effectively,

this was a diary of the abuse that she was suffering throughout the two-year relationship when when she took her own life and the police examined her phone there was a note in the note section of her iphone in which she wrote started off by saying this was the end she fought hard no one could imagine the pain that she had gone through throughout this relationship. But what she also wrote was that she wrote in her own words, I was murdered. Ryan Wellings killed me. So the prosecution said that was effectively Kiana beyond the grave saying who was responsible for her death and her actions. And the prosecution tried to claim that Ryan Wellings exploited her mental health condition, effectively took her to the brink, and she took her own life as a result of that. And that's why this prosecution was brought for unlawful killing and for manslaughter. Yesterday, the jury did not accept that.

They found him not guilty on that charge of manslaughter. It would have been the first of its kind if the convictions happened in front of a jury, but the jury found him not guilty on that charge. But they did find him guilty on coercive and controlling behaviour and assault. And with that note, she also hoped that others would be treated in a manner differently, she felt, than she was, that they would get the help to somebody like her quicker from the authorities. There are three police officers that are now facing misconduct hearings due to what has happened with this particular case. Just briefly, what was said in court and what has been said since so yesterday um we were told about about as you say quite rightly mentioned that women would be treated differently

they hope her family hope after this conviction on the two charges he was convicted of so what happened was that kienna did call police a number of times. And on that very last time when she was assaulted and a charge for which he was convicted of, he was released initially on bail. And after that, the court was told that Kiana felt let down because he did try and contact her, which on the face of it, we were told, was a breach of his bail conditions. He's not allowed to do that. And that was one of the issues

that the Independent Office for Police Conduct looked into. And what they found was there was a case to answer for three officers, one for gross misconduct and one for misconduct. And we were told yesterday by Lancashire police that disciplinary hearings will take place against those officers. So clearly what Kiana's family are hoping is that some lessons will be learned as a result of what's happened to Kiana. They're very disappointed on the fact that Ryan Wellings was cleared of manslaughter, but they want to concentrate now on what good could come out of it, if any.

And they're looking at that assault that took place and also the lessons that perhaps could be learned. And as Kiana said in her note herself, and the other women don't suffer in this way. Eunice Muller BBC reporter thank you so much and I do want to let our listeners know if you've been affected by what you've been hearing you can visit the BBC Action Line website where there is information and support. We do want to continue speaking about this story next to Kate Brown who's the Chief

Crown Prosecutor and the Crown Prosecution Service Lead on domestic abuse. Kate, thank you for joining us this morning. First, your response to the outcome of this case that we were just hearing the details from Eunice. Good morning. This is a really tragic case and I don't think any of us can hear those facts as Eunice has outlined without being touched and disturbed by this tragedy. And our thoughts are first of all with the family who have endured unimaginable pain, both knowing what happened in this relatively short relationship and what this poor young woman endured and that she took her own life. And then they obviously had to go through the trial process.

We bought this case. And as Eunice has said, we charged manslaughter as well as the assault and the controlling and coercive behaviour. Obviously we bought it because we believe there was sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of a conviction for all those offences. We have to respect the decision of the jury and it is significant that this case was brought and it is also significant that it went to the jury so it was for the jury to decide whether having heard all that evidence there was sufficient evidence to to find that offence um we do take some positives out of uh what what has taken place. As you say, there were convictions for the assault and the controlling and coercive behaviour. And those were matters that he denied and in the course of the evidence, tried to minimise his own behaviour and also blame her and also indicate that she shouldn't be believed because of her mental health issues.

So it is good to see that the jury have found that not to be the case and that we do have convictions. And as I say, it is also positive that it got to the jury. So we weren't precluded. There were no legal impediments identified to stop us bringing this case. And I suppose, yes, go on. So, you know, there's a couple of things there. One, I just want to make mention of Kiana's mother, Angela,

who has apologised for failing to get justice for her daughter. She spoke outside the court yesterday just to be specific on how her family is feeling. And also with this type of case, because you're talking specifically with this one of what happened and what did not happen. There has been research led by the National Police Chiefs Council, which has shown that the number of suspected victim suicides following domestic abuse has now overtaken intimate partner homicide. This is the first time such a case has been tried. You talk about it being significant before a jury.

But with those figures that I mentioned, should that be considered a failing on the part of the CPS? Absolutely not. But we are, all of us who work in this sector, are getting a raised awareness of the link between the domestic abuse which victims suffer and suicide. And the research that's been done by the police really helps. And one of the things that really does is bring into sharp focus the impact and the possible consequence of those types of behaviour. And what it has done within policing and enabled us to do is to start investigating those instances through this lens, and that we don't choose what

cases come to us from the police, but we can work with them and and we did work with them in this case and i commend the prosecution team in this case for the tremendous amount of work they've done to build a case to put before the jury to try and um persuade a jury that there is a link but what we have to remember is we have to as prosecutors bring that to the criminal standard of proof so the jury would have had to be sure that there was such a causal link and I think another reason why this is significant is and I guess I want to make clear, is we are not deterred by the outcome of this case. There is nothing that we have seen in this case that will prevent us bringing other cases. So we are actively looking at the cases that the police are bringing to us

that are being investigated, as I say, through this lens. So this isn't the end. And I anticipate that we will go again in relation to cases where the similar issues and similar evidence is found. And potentially be successful? Well, very much hope so. Yes. Just going back to those figures before I let you go though that the number of suspected victim suicides, overtaking intimate partner homicide figures you talk about a raised awareness between the two for example but how and like how are you seeing those figures why do you not consider that a failing? Well, we could only go on the cases that the police bring us and the evidence that they are able to obtain. And I think until recent years,

less was understood, as I say, by all in the sector and by society that there could be this link. And it's been an evolving process to try and put together, investigate and put together a prosecution case in order to establish that link. So again, whilst we haven't been able to establish it to jury satisfaction in this case. We are actively looking at current cases to see if we can build those cases and present them. So as I say, I think this is evolving and this is a good step forward. And as I say, we will go again when the evidence demonstrates that we've got a case to present to the court. Kate Brown, Chief Crown Prosecutor and the Crown Prosecution Service Lead on Domestic Abuse. Thank you for joining us on Women's Hour. I want to turn to Harriet Wisteridge,

Director of the Centre for Women's Justice. Welcome back to Women's Hour. What do you make of this case, Harriet, from your perspective as a lawyer who has brought landmark cases involving violence against women and girls. Yeah, I mean, it's it is a disappointing outcome from the jury. And we welcome the fact that the Crown Prosecution Service brought this case. We have been looking at increasing number of cases of suicides which have resulted from a history of domestic abuse and we know that CPS are considering actively considering a couple of those cases at the moment so I'm very pleased to hear from Kate that this is not going to deter them the the the legal the legal test in in in these sorts of cases is whether the cause of death was more than minimal, I think. And so I think the issue that the jury must have struggled with was the fact that Kiana had a

pre-existing vulnerability, that she'd attempted suicide previously. And so they weren't sure that this was really the causal factor. I think the key issue from our point of view and what we see with domestic abuse more generally is that, and coercive controlling behaviour in particular, is understanding how abusers actually target vulnerabilities. So coercive controlling behaviour has been described as a bespoke form of abuse. So abusers actually go for vulnerabilities. And I think what we saw in this case, from what I've read,

and what we see in many of these cases, is that abuser sees that someone has a mental health problem, sees that she is potentially suicidal, and he's deliberately exploiting that. So essentially, the jury could have concluded that in a sense, he was responsible for pushing her over the edge, for exploiting that that and that the causal link was satisfied. Now, obviously, we don't know what the jury deliberations were there, but I think in a different jury could have come to a very different conclusion. And I think we have to keep pushing. Now,

what we would recommend and what we'd like to see the criminal courts do more is bring in expert evidence, not just a psychiatric evidence, but evidence which explains how coercive control operates, which explains how women become totally entrapped in these relationships by the web that is created by the abuser. And they see no other way out. And that's why you end up with either homicide, suicide, or sometimes even the woman taking the abuser's life because of the entrapment and because they're caught in that web. And that's quite a difficult concept to understand without an explanation. There's a lot that comes up. And I should say, of course, that he denies the charges and that the jury did not go in the way that you would have liked them to. However, he was found guilty of controlling and coercive behaviour

and also of assault, which might lead you to think that the jury understood controlling and coercive behaviour in some respects. Yes, I mean, clearly they did. And it's probably a case of saying, well, we can see that he's done some nasty things, but we're just not convinced that it was the cause of her death. But it's really, I guess, understanding, you know, more closely how those two things link up and how entrapment takes place so that the woman becomes completely entrapped and has no way out. And we should remember also the role of policing here, which was pretty distressing and disgraceful, really. I'm also pleased that those officers who failed to take steps, which could have actually been the thing that broke the cause of chain if he had been dealt with more appropriately. So with that, as we were hearing, of course, that there is misconduct, basically hearings that are going to be taking place

with the Lancashire police. But are you looking for a change in the law? Well, I spoke earlier actually to Sharon Holland, whose daughter Chloe took her own life. And she is disappointed with findings in this case, was very hopeful. But she's been campaigning for a change in the law. I'm not quite sure exactly how. I think it's really important that we find a way because I think where abusers are responsible for somebody's death, they need to be held accountable to that standard. And I'm very

interested in looking at ways in which the law could be improved so that it's easier for juries to come for that verdict. But I think the key thing is actually, you know, really understanding the mechanism of coercive controlling behaviour and how it entraps women. And for juries to understand that, I think is what I'm hearing. Yeah. But it's across the criminal justice system. But in this case, it was clearly the jury that couldn't take that leap. Harriet Wisterich, Director of the Centre for Women's Justice. Thanks so much. One of the voices we're hearing this morning on this story.

If you have, just to repeat, been affected by what you have heard, you can visit the BBC Action Line website where there is information and support. Lots of you have been getting in touch with me this morning because I asked about a sticky floor. No, not about cleaning your kitchen. This sticky floor

refers to the difficulties many women face in progressing their careers into higher paid or more high powered roles while balancing the demands of their personal unpaid responsibilities so they can get stuck at lower levels finding it hard to transfer out and then those senior positions are occupied predominantly by men i was just asking you know did you find that you're putting your career on

hold basically while you took care of caring responsibilities etc you got in touch so many of you um here's one al Alice. 100% I'm holding back. Life is logistics with two small kids. That's nearly a full-time job in itself. My mental capacity is maxed out. To take on more responsibility would break me. I know this frustrates my line manager. He has high hopes for me but I continue

to resist efforts to increase the breath and depth of my role. Here's another. Jane in West London. I've been called a bad feminist for avoiding promotion in an educational work context, but I'm maxed out looking after two young children with ASD. I also recognise that my parents are becoming much frailer. My employers don't recognise my care responsibilities and I'm just trying to survive. I'm not sure when I'll ever be able to prioritise my career again.

So obviously this is something that lots of people are feeling to discuss some of the reasons for it and possible solutions. That's what we want, right? I am now joined by Clare Reindorf, who is CEO of the Young Women's Trust and champions young women aged 18 to 30

on low or no pay. And the journalist turned economics teacher and co-founder of Now Teach, Lucy Kelleway. Welcome to you both. Claire, let me start with you. You're hearing some of the stories there, but maybe we should even backtrack before they get to the point where these women are that got in touch. Early in the career, when women head into the workplace, is the floor already a bit sticky? Absolutely, it's really sticky. And young women are often on minimum wage in sectors like retail, care, hospitality.

They're often getting stuck there. Or as some of your listeners have been saying, there might be professionals in high paid industries like education, but finding themselves in the slow lane when it comes to promotion. And contrary to what many people think, this floor is sticky, whether you've got kids or not. And it's sticky right from the beginning of women's working lives. So your organisation spoke to 4000 young women, this was in England and Wales. What did they say? Well, half of young women that we spoke to are worried about a lack of progression into more senior roles and we did a parallel survey with managers and over a quarter

agreed it's harder for women to get ahead in their organization than men and we know that showing up in pay you know women are taking home one-fifth less than young men per year that's young so that's like starting out right from the start of their working lives. And, you know, that it's not just about the pay. It's also about insecurity. Low paid work is often insecure work. And that insecure work can make young women really vulnerable. We just heard in the news last week about a widespread sexual harassment in McDonald's. Young women are

exchanging that kind of money and the money that they need and that kind of that shift work comes with all kinds of poor behaviours and legal practices. And I don't have a response from McDonald's on the latest they've said on that particular story at the moment but these are the sort of jobs that you're talking about that people can go into, that could be up against other things apart from low pay. But there are guys going into those jobs as well. So why is it different for women? Yeah, well, the evidence is it's particularly sticky for women.

One of the causes of that is just outright discrimination. Sexism. It's just sexism. Half of the women in our survey said they'd been discriminated against in the workplace. And it's not just in their heads. A third of the managers we spoke to knew that there had been discrimination in their workplace. So give me an example of that sort of discrimination. Well, pay is one very obvious one.

That they come in on a lower... They come in on lower pay. A young woman like Amy that I spoke to, when she left a job, she found that her male peer had been paid far more than her. If she'd had that money, she'd have been able to move out of her parents' flat and go and live in a city where she knew that there were many more job opportunities.

So it's things like lower pay, it's lower promotion, it's being stuck in insecure work, it's tolerating sexual harassment. But something that I know that you're asking your listeners about this morning is about flexibility and getting stuck. And one of the ways that women are getting stuck is because of caring responsibilities and their need for flex. We do actually have a spokesperson from McDonald's. The latest that they have said about the company is that they've undertaken extensive work over the past year to ensure that the industry leading practices are in place

to keep its workers safe, just in response to one of the aspects you were talking about there. But we do want to get to solutions as well about the sticky floor. But before I go there, Lucy, I want to turn over to you. Your experience is slightly different. You were a journalist at the Financial Times for 32 years. But you say you also had a sticky floor underfoot. How come? two years even in the loveliest job in the world which mine was is just too long and so why did I stay well it was partly because I had four children I also then at the end of it had an aged and frail father and I kind of thought look I am holding it together I can get away from work at the drop of a hat to see my dad. And I can't,

you know, my earlier, the FT wasn't requiring me to travel, I could just about manage childcare and the job. And I thought, that's good enough. If it's vaguely working, don't even consider anything else. So it was a conscious decision on your part and I think it echoes what I'm hearing from listeners this morning. So here's a couple more. Christine in Sheffield. It's a problem that the essential and skilled work of caring for others is devalued and underpaid or unpaid. We need a complete reversal of what's valued and most practical emotionally and physically demanding work on the ground should be that which is more rewarded. Here's another. For me, this is more of a family floor or a family bubble. Career progression means extra money, but time away from my daughter and husband that I feel so blessed to

have. She'll be in high school next year. I have many more years to climb the ladder, but only these years right now to give my daughter a childhood full of love and happy times, not more stuff and expensive holidays. But does it have to be an either or? Lucy, your thoughts first. OK, so what I love with that listener saying that there are many more years, there are indeed many more years. You know, we will go on, many of us in great health, being able to work for a very long time. So I think being stuck to the floor in the early years may not actually matter that much, so long as you can unstick yourself in later life and go on to do something different. But there are a couple of things here, which I was really interested to read about. First,

we're hearing about the lower salary going in, which might be maybe a small percentage between boys, you know, young men and young women going in, but can be whopping 30% by the time we come to the end of our career and also the pensions that are affected. So you kind of want to unstick yourself a bit earlier if you can. And the other thing, which I think you're talking about, Clare, as well, when you go into a job, maybe you take that risk for whatever reason, they want to know your previous salary. Absolutely. And one of the reasons, I mean, just responding to Lucy's point that the reason why the sticky floor really matters is not just the financial consequences for young women stuck in

low pay who can't afford their heating, they can't afford their bills. It also that the the insecurity they're experiencing and it's scarring for life you know that we know that in order for women to progress one of the things that employers could be doing is putting flexible working options on adverts and salaries on adverts so that women kind of know that there's a job out there that is doable for them and progress out of that sticky floor this is really interesting. Just having the salary on the job, which happens with some jobs, but with money, it does not. Do you think that's a realistic proposition? Well, interestingly, we lag behind the EU and many US states here who've actually legislated for salary transparency. The UK is becoming a laggard state.

Of course, employers could put salaries on the advert. And we know that the good news is that the government in its forthcoming Employment Rights Bill is going to strengthen workers' rights and the requirements on companies to offer flexible working from day one, tackle their gender pay gaps, and really rein in some of the exploitative zero hours contracts that young women are experiencing. Let's also, I mentioned the word risk at the beginning of this and what we hear from listeners and I'm sure what you've heard as well Clare in your study is that some people are averse to risk taking because they're afraid the whole possible house of cards that they've built for their caring responsibilities might come tumbling down if they, in fact, take that next step. Lucy,

what would you say to people who are afraid to take that risk? You say, yeah, there are many more years, but would you advocate for pushing yourself out of that comfort zone psychologically and going for it? I would advocate people looking clearly at whatever their circumstances are. I mean, I unstuck myself from the floor after my dad died and thought I don't need to go on being a columnist at the FT. And I became a school teacher. That was a very risky thing to do, or it felt like it. And then I also set up Now Teach to encourage anyone else out there who's stuck to their floor and wants to do something completely different. It's not too late um to come and be a teacher seize that risk and we will help you we will help you in in doing it what about uh that claire what how would you advise people

for solutions uh particularly the psychological um aversion to taking that risk if they are perhaps you know starting out in their career and they're like, how can I do this? Well, of course, we want to encourage young women to take risks where they can, you know, but we know that the reality is that this floor is sticky for things that are outside of women's control. And that's where we need the action from government. We need more affordable childcare. We need employers to step up because we've got a government that is really wanting our economy to grow and we can't afford to hold women back in the way that we are at the moment.

Some more. Having been self-employed before having children, I found after children, it was impossible to get into work again. As my youngest child has special needs and I need to be home during the school holidays, my options are very limited. Now I'm over 50.

I can't imagine ever finding a job with meaningful progression or pay, despite having two degrees and a master's. Oh, well, absolutely. That's I mean, it speaks for itself. Another, I was a CEO before having children. I retrained as a teacher, but was unable to work full time due to caring needs and struggle to find a post that was part time. I'm now an assistant and send coordinator in a school on a temporary contract. My child has just started a new special school,

so I'm hoping to get something more permanent. I have an interview for a full-time senior manager role. I decided to go for it in case I may be able to negotiate four days or some working from home. That doesn't seem fair on the employer, but I don't know how else to progress my career. What do you think, Lucy? Could be fair. Yeah, well, I'm actually very happy that schools in

because they're so desperate for teachers they are belatedly starting to look more at flexibility and trying to encourage people um welcome them on a four-day or a three-day basis and trying to be a bit more flexible around people who are parents and need to pick up their children this is just so important to make such a difference for so many people. Thank you both very much. There is a Marzi panel there that we can talk about at some point,

which is middle managers kind of getting stuck, but that's a conversation for another day. Thanks so much. All the messages coming in, 84844, do continue. We were speaking to Clare Reindorf and also Lucy Calloway. Thanks to both of you. You are listening to Woman's Hour, 84844 at BBC Woman's Hour, if you'd like to get in touch.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Hermine Braunsteiner was the first person to be extradited from the US for Nazi war crimes. She was one of a few thousand women who had worked as a concentration camp guard and was nicknamed the mayor by prisoners because of her cruelty. My next guest has written a novel about that cruelty and I will say it can be distressing to hear the details. We also hear about another part, however,

of Hermione and her life. In the 1960s, she was living a quiet existence as an adoring suburban housewife in Queens, New York. That was until she was tracked down by a reporter from the New York Times who planned to expose her past. The story is a fascinating one. It is disturbing. It raises questions about how people make choices that can change the course of their lives and what has been famously called the banality of evil. Well, I'm joined now by Angharad, who is Angharad Hampshire, excuse me, a research fellow at York St John

University and who has written this book, The Mayor. You're so welcome. Thank you, Nuala. Good to have you in the studio with us. I think we'll start with a little of your fictionalised account of the moment that threatened to expose Hermine when a reporter comes to the door. You're going to read a little for us. The knock on the door changed everything. Until then we were happy. We knew who we were. You've got the wrong person, I told him. My wife is gentle and kind. She wouldn't hurt a fly. After he left, we sat side by side on the sofa and I held you tightly as you sobbed into my neck. Your shoulders heaved up and down and your tears soaked my collar. This will be the end of me, you whimpered. I only did what everyone

else did back then. I was no different. You have to believe me, I've done nothing wrong. I shushed you and calmed you and told you I loved you. I had no reason to doubt you. But after that knock, everything around me started to wobble and bend all that was solid became molten it was as if we were standing in front of the funhouse mirrors on coney island looking at our reflections distorted distended versions of ourselves my whole sense of who i am who you are all of it shook and that begins to bring us into this extraordinary world that was lived by Hermine Branstainer and later with her husband, Russell Ryan. Tell us a little bit, but let's start with her, with your protagonist, Hermine. Who was she? So Hermine was a working class Catholic girl from Vienna. She

lived in the outskirts of Vienna in a suburb called Nussdorf. She was born in 1919. She left school, I think around about age of 13 and was working as a domestic servant and her dad died. Her mum was doing laundry locally and her dad was a driver for a beer factory. Her dad died when she was 15 and she ended up going to London and working as a domestic servant in London. And then the Anschluss happened. Germany annexed Austria. She was called back to Austria because if she'd stayed in the UK, she'd have become a prisoner of war. She wanted to become a nurse but couldn't get a job as a nurse. And she ended up working in an armaments factory north of Berlin. And she was lodging in a place called Furstenberg, which is a village north of Berlin.

And Furstenberg was where they were building a prison for women, which became Ravensbrück Concentration Camp. They were advertising for guards. She took a job as a guard because it was double the pay, no commute. And that's how she entered the concentration camp system. Her story is shocking. I mentioned the novel is called The Mare. That was the nickname that prisoners within the concentration camp, female concentration camp of which she was a guardian, gave her.

And I will, of course, warn listeners that it's very distressing, but do you want to say why? So she worked in three concentration camps. She started off in Ravensbrück, which is north of Berlin. Then she worked in Majdanek in Poland, which was a death camp. And then towards the end of the war, she was in charge of Genthin, a sub-camp of Ravensbrück. In Majdanek, she was nicknamed Kobia in Polish, which means the mare, female horse. And she was given that nickname because she stomped on people and she kicked people to death.

So she was a brutal woman. It contains these scenes of brutality to describe and explain who she was throughout your book. Are they based on fact? Yes, so I did heaps of historical research. It was really important to me. I'm a journalist by background. It's really important to me that the book was historically accurate.

So I did an enormous amount of historical research, part of which was reading all the witness accounts, all the testimonies against her, which are horrifying. And every single piece of violence that occurs in my book is based on a witness account. So they are all, you know, they're based on witness accounts. Yeah. How did you decide how much to include? That's an interesting question. So I really wanted to, I wanted to portray her, I wanted to make, make it very clear that she was guilty, and to show what she did. But I also wanted to portray her as an ordinary person. So in terms of the brutality, I picked key things that came up repeatedly in witness accounts. And then other parts of her life, I picked key moments that

were important, like during her childhood, and then most of it set during the camps and her fleeing at the end of the war. A lot of it is based on fact, but it is a fictionalization. So there are certain things about her and her husband it's not possible to know. So the conversation, for example, is fiction. Yes, and we will come to Russell in just a moment. But throughout our reading of her at the camp, for example, which I found disturbing at times, is how the horror and the cruelty is juxtaposed by her observations of beauty in nature, for example,

or birdsong or birdwatching. This kind of two sides to a person is difficult to, I don't know, process. Yes, because I think the historical, if you look at historical accounts of Holocaust perpetrators and all the psychology surrounding it, it points to the fact that most of the people who were involved in perpetration were really ordinary people. They were not sadists. They were not monsters. They did monstrous things and sadistic things, but they didn't go into those camps as monstrous people. They acclimatized to the violence. And that sort of new world that they lived in, which was very violent, became their new norm. So I wanted to

portray her in the full, not just her acts of cruelty, but also the other sides of her, which were much more ordinary and much more normal. And, you know, the reason I wanted to do that is because if you look at the psychology behind perpetration, that is sort of the horrifying reality of it, is that most of these people were, as Hannah Arendt, you quoted earlier, banal, really ordinary people, but capable of doing horrendous things. She was a female guard, a female prison. Do you think that descent into evil and being perpetrators of this kind is any different between the genders? I mean, so one in 10 guards were women. There were far fewer of them, but they were definitely brutal. So there were fewer women in terms of the actual descent into evil. So there's a really interesting account by a witness called Germaine Tillian. She was a French political prisoner at Ravensbrück. And she talked about how the new guardsmen they

came in would say, excuse me, and please and thank you to the prisoners. But within four days, they were, they'd become rough. I think the word she uses is rough, but you know, rough and manhandling them. I mean, in Eichmann in Jerusalem, Hannah Arendt's account of the Eichmann trial, she says that Eichmann, who was a really senior Nazi, I mean, Hermine Bernstein was a low level perpetrator, not in any way condemning what she did, but Eichmann was a really senior Nazi. In Hannah Arendt's account of his trial, she thought it took him less than a month to dehumanize people and commit murder and then have no qualms about it. So I think the descent into evil can be very, very quick. And interestingly, the reflections

that have just been on recently with Dr. Gwen Adshead, the forensic psychologist, she talks all about that sort of evil state of mind, how ordinary people can get into an evil state of mind, and then how they can disconnect themselves from their crimes afterwards. Which she had. She never admitted culpability. And let me bring in her husband, who she met at Russell Ryan, holidaying in Austria, eventually becomes this suburban 60s American housewife before that knock that you read for us there took place, which was a New York times reporter coming to expose and indeed did

what her past was but russell her husband all through it manages or tries to rationalize or justify this woman that he loves and what her behavior might have been that she was young that she was following orders but at points she did have a choice yes to do the you know to take the right path but didn't take it um so in terms of i'll start with whether she had a choice so when she entered the concentration camps she was at a point where she could choose to go in later there was conscription she was not part of a wave of conscription yes but she seemed to say that she was she did yes but because because she would have lied to her husband. Well, yes. So he stayed with her. So that's historically accurate. I mean, I think this is the phenomenal thing about the story. Can you imagine you

discover your partner has been involved in mass murder? It's all I thought about while I was reading the book because you try and put yourself in her shoes and his shoes and his shoes. And that is the point of the book. It's written in the first person, both sides that you're meant to try and put yourself in there. She was incredibly uncomfortable. But he did stay with her and I had to work out why would he stay with her? And I think he must have come to understand more than five years, perpetrators of the Holocaust, it's very hard to say that in a similar position, you wouldn't do the same thing. I use a quote at the beginning of my book from Zygmunt Bauman, which says, the most frightening news brought about the Holocaust and by what we learned of its perpetrators was not the likelihood that this could be done to us, but the idea that we could do it. And if you look at her and the time she lived in and how quickly psychologically, if you look at psychological experiments, for example, Stanley Milgram electric shock experiments, the Philip Zimbardo, Stanford prison experiments, these famous psychological experiments show that most people follow orders and most people are

brutal. It's horrifying realisation. You know, I was struck, I read the book The Weekend. I was reading a paper yesterday about Syria and, you know, they're trying to figure out the new government and who might be part of it. And there were people who are working in the prison who they're wondering, will they be part of the new authority, which it will be.

And the men were saying we were just drivers. We were just working in the kitchen. Human nature doesn't change. And it's so hard to find out exactly what they were doing or who they were. I mean, with her, it was that there was previous people that she had brutalised that came forward in these trials to point her out in a court of law. But it's just, I was like, it continues. Yeah, but I think that's the thing about this story. Yes, it's about the concentration camps. And yes, it's about Hermine Brandsteiner and her relationship with her husband. But actually,

it's more than that. It's about what human beings are capable in dictatorial regimes. And for me, the lesson I've learned from writing this book is, because I think we're capable of this, unfortunately, there's latent evil in everybody, as, you know, it's really important who's in power, because, you know, that drives the direction that society goes in. What about you, though? I mean, I found it very affecting, the book, reading it, and it is brilliantlyiantly written but I'm wondering about the impact on you for doing that research to create that book

Yeah, I mean it was, I don't want to use the word traumatising because I think that word gets a bit overused but I would say it was emotionally incredibly draining and it was reading the witness accounts particularly the accounts that were to do with children I've got children and I had to have counselling after, I had to have counselling after...

I had to have counselling because I... These scenes from the Holocaust would play out again and again and again in my mind. My whole view of humanity really sunk to rock bottom. And I related everything to the Holocaust for a really long time. I don't do any more. And now I see the good in humanity as well, thankfully. Fair to say, because you need to come back to that equilibrium. You need to come back to reality but I guess it gives you a bit of an insight

of what it's like to work with perpetrators. For example, Gwen Adshed and human beings are complex. I think this is one of the problems of modern day discourses. We talk in such binary things about people being either entirely good or entirely bad but human beings are complex. And I think it's really important to examine the nuance and the complexity. It's fascinating. Thank you for coming into our studio,

Angharad Hampshire, Research Fellow at York St John University, who has written the book, The Mayor. Thank you for your messages that are coming in on the sticky floor. Sally, I work at a local authority as a social worker. My job is to look after a person's well-being. I applied to reduce my working hours to care for my family, but also my own mental health. I was flatly denied as the business needs full-time staff. Who is looking after my well-being, she asks. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. I want to turn to the woman now who is known as Badass Gran to her Instagram followers.

Celia Duff is her name. She's a double world high rocks champion. So that is a fitness and endurance race to possibly understate it. Celia started to compete at 68. She's now 70. After retiring from her career as a doctor in public health medicine,

Celia dedicates her time to an impressive fitness regime. This includes yoga, Pilates, running, strength and conditioning and Olympic weightlifting six times a week. She says she's fitter and stronger than ever. It's all very inspirational. Celia, welcome. Can you explain, like High Rocks,

some of the stuff that you're actually doing? Like that's a name, but from what I was looking around, you're pulling very heavy weights and doing stuff that i couldn't even dream of talk us through it and welcome thank you very much so high rocks is one of many functional fitness sports and competitions that have exploded in the last few years um high rocks um itself uh is a bit more than 50% running. So it's it's sectioned into eight parts. There are eight individual kilometer runs. And then after each run, you go into the middle of usually an indoor arena, and do one or eight body breaking exercises, which might be a cardiovascular test, like on an erg, you know, the rowing machines people use in gyms, or a weight based exercise. So eight runs of a kilometer, eight exercises, it's not graded by age, but it is graded by gender.

So men's weights are more than women's weights. But your weights are still pretty heavy because I was having a good old scroll through your Instagram and it's things like wall balls holding these really heavy or lunges or sandbags. I mean, why did you want to do this? Yeah, it's a good question. And it might seem completely bonkers. And I kind of fell into it without thinking too hard, which might be a good thing. Although I would encourage people to do functional fitness training. I fell into it because my daughter was an early adopter of High Rocks when it started to take off in the UK shortly after lockdown.

And I used to look after the grandchildren, her two, when she was away competing. And I wasn't needed one weekend. And she said, why not come and compete at the same yeah why not why not so I I got I got myself a ticket and then started reading up properly what it was about and thought I think I need to take this seriously and and train a bit harder so that I can manage because the the aim for me at that point was to survive was to get through was to complete this actual race as it is a fitness race yeah exactly so you know you you you train for the race you go up you do the race you learn

a huge amount from the first time that you do it and And after that, it was a question of, I survived. I wouldn't say I enjoyed it because it's really hard. But afterwards, there's a huge satisfaction in having beaten something that is really tough. And then you reflect or I reflected and thought, you know, I could have done this a little bit better or tweaked my training. So you kind of get the bug to get a bit... So tell me this, what would you be lifting now, kilo-wise? Well, that's a really hard question to answer. I thought it might be.

What the particular exercise is and what the purpose is. So you might, this thing that, as you introduced, Olympic weightlifting, I mean, it's a kind of catch-all for very heavy, very slow lifting where you stand around a lot while you recover from the weight you lifted. Yeah, but give me just a number for what you might do. So I might deadlift 70 kilograms. So my kind of aim is to deadlift my my age i love that 70 kilos we've got it the deadlift because i was looking at your pictures and you're ripped right jacked as the americans might say um and i wonder what it was like just to see your body transform with such strength yes so i i think i'm not sure how much one sees a change. You feel a change. So your body, particularly something called the posterior chain,

everything from the back of your neck right down through your calves, becomes strengthened through doing those sorts of exercises. And that, therefore, makes you walk taller. So you walk straighter and you walk taller so you walk straighter and you walk taller you walk stronger and then if you add on to that the running that you have to do if you're training for this kind of sport you have more endurance so you feel different because your body is coping and you kind of fizz from inside. Fizz from inside. Well, that's a good advertisement for it.

I do know that you did win rowing blue for Cambridge and Oxford back in the 1970s. But I guess you mightn't have thought that it came, it would come to this and High Rocks. Are you going to continue in my last few seconds? Yes, I've got a competition coming up in 10 days time with a lovely 39 year old young man. We're doing a mixed doubles in Manchester. Enjoy. I'll be watching the Instagram. It's Badass Gran if anybody else would like to as well. Thanks so much for joining me. Inspirational. Do join me tomorrow.

I'll be speaking to Holly Byrne, very successful young adult author and mental health advocate. She's written a new novel about four university friends in the 30s, an adult one this time. And also, what about booze at women's football? I'm going to talk about that as well.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. Join us again next time. Science with bits. Funny science plus bits. So the reason that the Neanderthals died out, you're claiming, is because they weren't astronomers. Is that right? Yes, exactly. This is how we investigate cybercrime. We look for the yachts.

The new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. From BBC Radio 4, listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.