Woman's Hour - Stonewall 50 years on: lesbian visibility then and now, Thea Musgrave

Episode Date: July 2, 2019

It's 50 years since the Stonewall riots, a defining moment in the history of the gay rights movement. We ask how visible lesbians were in those early days and how or whether this has changed as rights have progressed and the movement is now ever more inclusive.Scottish-American composer Thea Musgrave is one of the most respected composers of opera and classical music. At 91 she's still working and is soon to have the world premiere of her trumpet concerto at the Cheltenham Music Festival. Lisa Taddeo spent eight years talking to three women about their sex lives. Why? And what does the book have to tell us about shame, intimacy, pleasure and love?Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Angela Mason Interviewed guest: Angela Wild Interviewed guest: Kate Davies Interviewed guest: Thea Musgrave Interviewed guest: Lisa Taddeo Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast, July 2nd, 2019. Today, we'll discuss why some people say lesbians are being erased. They're becoming increasingly invisible within the LGBTQ community, some people are saying. You'll hear too from the Scottish-American composer, the great Thea Musgrave. I haven't retired because I love doing what I'm doing. So why retire?

So wish me luck. And an intimate look at three women's sex lives. They are American women. The book is called, very simply, Three Women. It's by a woman called Lisa Tadeo. And it's one of the frankest books ever, really, about female sexuality. It's sad in parts, it's funny in others, it's incredibly poignant, and it's well worth a look. So Lisa is on the podcast today.

But we started today with a discussion about lesbians. It is Pride this weekend across the country. And it's 50 years since the Stonewall riots and the campaign group named after them, Stonewall, is marking its 30th anniversary this year. How visible were lesbians in the movement back in the day, and how has this changed now? Is it true, as some people believe, that lesbians are being sidelined in what some people call lesbian erasure. My guests in this discussion, Angela Mason, director of Stonewall between 92 and 2002. You'll hear too from Angela Wilde from the lesbian activist group Get The L Out, Kate Davis, author of a lesbian coming of age novel, In At The Deep End, and Phil Opoku-Jima, the co-founder of UK Black Pride, joined us on the phone line too.

So I started with asking Angela about her memories of the early days of what was then the gay liberation movement. I think lesbians have played a really big role in the struggle, the 50-year struggle for lesbian and gay rights and indeed transgendered rights. And sometimes lesbians have organised separately and sometimes they've worked with men, but they've always been there. And I think we'll continue to be there. I don't think there's going to be erasure, as they say. And if you look at the issues that are coming up, the big thing I think that we've all got to fear is the rise of the far right. So this is not a time to be fighting each other. This is a time to be working together to defeat those

who would attack and exploit all minorities. I do not doubt for one second that lesbians were there doing a lot of hard work, but were they conspicuous? Yes, they were. if you take gay liberation um several of the leading members i would say of gay liberation were lesbian were lesbian women lesbian women organized separately within gay liberation um so they were there then um They were very, obviously, Stonewall has actually had two women directors who have been run by women for most of the time. And lesbians worked very actively with Stonewall

and many of the big cases that Stonewall took concerned lesbian women, lesbian women in the armed forces, for instance. But would you say lesbians have had the credit they deserve for the work they did? I don't know. I don't know. The history of lesbian and gay movements is only just beginning to be written.

If you're saying, is there a possibility that some men might write some women out of history, then I wouldn't be entirely surprised. So we have to assert the place and remember the place that we've had in the struggle. Phil, I want to bring you in now because there is no doubt that if lesbians are at the bottom of the heap, and some people might say they still are,

black lesbians have an even tougher time what would you say about that yeah so i just wanted to touch on the point angela made because i think that she's absolutely right lesbian women have been there from the absolute start i have just come back from world pride where i was a grand marshal and i met with some amazing people from the gay and lesbian fed Federation and we've got to remember the history of lesbian women being at the forefront when there was a AIDS, a HIV epidemic who was looking after the men which was predominantly men who were suffering this awful horrendous disease that was killing off our gay men.

So we've always been there. I think when we try and break it down about who's the most marginalized, there will always be people in particular categories, with particular different identities, who are marginalized. And yes, I can speak to being a black lesbian woman and often feel very much like i'm not part of the wider lgbt mainstream um activities because actually when we're talking about challenging homophobia biph transphobia, racism often gets left out of that conversation or often gets left out of that fight. And you cannot divorce the two. I don't want to say that, you know,

one out trumps the other, because that's not, I don't think that's healthy. And I think that that can be quite divisive. But actually, what I want people to recognize is that you can be quite divisive but actually what i want people to recognize is that what you can't be for lgbt rights and not be for black people's rights you can't be for black people's rights and not be for disabled people's rights but as a black lesbian yes i i certainly often feel that things are quite challenging because we don't have the allyship all the time from those that we need it from. Thank you very much. I want to bring in now Angela Wild, who represents the lesbian activist group Get the L Out. Angela, just to give our listeners a sense of your group, just how many people are in it or connected to it? So we are a small informal group of organisers, but we do represent a wide, much wider

group in the UK as well as in Europe and in America. We have had several already protests or action for lesbian visibility this year alone in the UK. We were present in Europe Pride in Vienna with a group of lesbians from all over Europe. There have been actions in the Dyke March two days ago in America, in New York. And so we are really quite wide, even though I think most women who support us do not feel strong enough to come out because it's a very dangerous place to be at the moment for us. Right. Well, that's what I wanted to pick up on, obviously. Angela Mason, who I hope she won't mind me saying is in her 70s. She has put in a great deal of work for the cause and she says there is no worse time for this movement to fragment. But you say there's every reason to be fearful. Can you just tell us more?

Yes. Well, first of all, I want to say I completely agree with Angela with the point about being against the right. We are very firmly against the right ourselves. But what I also wanted to say is that this idea that the LGBT is one happy united family is a myth. It's always been a myth. It's always been a group. It's always been a group of, you know, different groups that are diverse, that experience diverse kind of oppression,

that have diverse issues and diverse priorities. Sometimes these priorities are not working out together. Sometimes they are really conflictual. And what we see right now is happening around the question between the movement for trans rights and the movement for lesbian rights, that there is a really big conflict, particularly when it comes around the question of who counts as a woman, so who definition of a lesbian was a female who was sexually attracted to another female. Now with the rise of the trans ideology this is shifted because everybody has to be inclusive all the time to everyone as something new definition is some more something like a person who identify as a woman who is sexually attracted to another person who identify as a woman. Can I just interrupt and ask then what you're saying is that gay women are being encouraged, or perhaps more than encouraged, to find trans women attractive.

Yes, that's what it is. With the fact that gender identity takes over biological sex, we're supposed to, and expected, and actually pressured in LGBT groups, in communities and in Pride indeed to accept trans women as potential sexual partners. If we do not do that, there's consequences. Then you are accused of all sorts of things. That's right. But would there be equivalent pressure on a gay man to find a trans man attractive? I've never heard of it.

Angela Mason, what do you say to that? Well, we are in a difficult period. There is a conflict, unfortunately, about trans rights and lesbian rights, women's rights, which have been discussed very widely. I think the differences are actually very small. I think we've got the duty on all of us to work much harder not to exaggerate those differences but find a way and we can find a way in which we can work together and support each other and that should be our starting point, not the creation of a politics of difference, which is going to lead down all sorts of unfortunate, very toxic discussions, which are not going to help anybody.

Well, Kate Davis is also here, author of, actually, it's being marketed, and this is significant, as a mainstream novel in at the deep end, happens to be about a lesbian relationship. Yeah, that's right. So that wouldn't have happened 15 years ago, perhaps not even five years ago. No, absolutely not. And I do think that lesbians are becoming more and more visible in popular culture.

And you obviously welcome that. Absolutely, yeah. But does Angela Wilde not have a point? I think it's very important to understand that Get the L Out doesn't represent the views of most lesbians. And it's important to note that a lot of lesbian publications such as Diva, Curve, Autostraddle and others issued a statement last year disagreeing with Get the L Out's premise. It's just absolutely not my experience that women are being forced to have sex with trans women. It's not the experience of anybody that I know. And I think it's quite an academic argument often.

What do you mean by an academic? I think, you know, theoretically things could happen, could happen, that aren't necessarily based in people's everyday experience. Angela Wilde, theoretical? Theoretical, no. I have recently published a research where I interviewed a question, 80 lesbians, and the cases are there. The stories are there. The fact is that, you know, organisations such as Stonewall, whose job it is, who gets funding for protecting our rights, is completely not only ignoring this issue,

is also working actively to call us all these names, transphobic, bigoted, because we refuse to have sex with people with penises. The research officially is not there from their part. We are doing it and women are sharing their stories. And in fact, if you go to the internet and hashtag cotton ceiling right now, cotton ceiling is rape right now, get the hell out right now, you will see women. You will also see the communication that we receive by trans activists and men who identify as trans who actually tell us that. There's no doubt that I think...

Sorry, Angela, can I just interrupt briefly because I've got a statement from Stonewall, which I think is quite important. They say, we won't take part in discussions which seek to debate whether trans people exist or which target trans people with hate. This group, and they mean your group, Angela Wilde, has consistently targeted trans

people, spreading transphobic materials around the country. Well, that's the statement. You say you haven't done that. No, of course not. What we're doing and what we're saying is lesbians have a right to sexual boundaries. That is absolutely, we are uncompromising on that.

All people have a right. Yes, we do. All people have a right to sexual boundaries. As women, this right is not respected and as lesbians right now, this right is not respected in the LGBT. We are demonised when we say this. I've been removed from Swansea Pride event in May because I had a banner that said lesbians don't have a penis.

This is a biological fact. Lesbians do not have a penis. Angela Mason, quickly, just after that. I think the women who have questioned some of the proposals that Stonewall and others have backed to change the Gender Recognition Act, which would limit access to same-sex spaces, have a point,

and that point has to be discussed. That does not mean, I think, that we can condone man-hating or hatred or dislike and prejudice against transgendered women. So we have to find a way through this argument and disrupting gay prides I don't think is the way to do it. Absolutely not, especially when those spaces where trans people should be able to expect to feel accepted and proud of who they are. To have that disrupted in this way, I think is very dangerous and upsetting. It is also worth mentioning, Angela, and this is something that has changed over your period of time in this movement,

that the number of born females questioning their biological sex and thinking about transitioning has really, really increased. Now, what do you think that is about? I think that's partly a freedom for people to express... Why so many born females? Those views. I think it may also be, and this is something which we should think about and discuss, that there is still not enough space or role models of strong women.

And that is still something that needs to happen. Quick line from you, Angela Wilde, on that one. Yes. Well, the increase is 5,000%, the latest figures show us, so it's more than alarming. The government itself is investigating as to why this is happening. If you do take time to listen to women who change their mind and detransition, and also, I know you're going to say it's academic, but a study from the Netherlands suggests that these women who are desisting and detransitioning overwhelmingly identify as lesbian as they detransition. What they say when you speak to them most of the time is when they got into LGBT spaces,

there was no lesbian for them. They were immediately said, oh, you are attracted to women, you don't present as a woman, you are gender non-conforming. Have you thought about transitioning? Lesbian erasure and lesbian invisibility is leading that. These women would become lesbian and do become lesbian when they come out of it. This is absolutely tragic. Kate Davis, what do you say to that?

I was just reading an interview with Ruth Hunt, who I think is the outgoing CEO of Lesbian. Absolutely. And she was saying that she identifies as a butch lesbian and she has never experienced this pressure. And she doesn't know of anybody that's experienced this pressure to transition. She says that it's very she's always identified as having she likes to have short hair. That's her way of being a woman.

With respect to Ruth Hunt, she isn't a 14 year old girl in contemporary society, is she? No, but she is the leader of Stonewall and I'm sure has a lot more experience. But the young girls questioning. Yeah, I think she says, and it's very clear that we have to draw a distinction between gender presentation, whether you have short hair and like to wear suits and gender identity.

They're two very different things. It's perfectly possible to be a woman who likes to have short hair and we should be aware of this. This is not a black and white debate. We need to see the nuances and services working with young people young lgbtq people need to be aware of the difference between gender presentation and gender identity i feel i know your phone line isn't particularly brilliant but let's just bring you in again what would you say about what you've heard i mean i'm i'm quite surprised that we're having this conversation as a black

lesbian woman i do not feel erased for being a lesbian i feel erased very much for being a black woman in society however i the conversations that we're starting to have about people's bodies can be quite toxic and polarizing i am not saying that you know we shouldn't have this conversation but i just think that it has to be done in a safe way that is meaningful conversations where we are not impacting people's lives in such a negative way i just to say that we are all different people we all have different lived experiences and lives and nobody should take that away from us nobody should downplay that nobody should be called a biglet or a turf nobody should be called um you know any other name that seems derogatory to them. But let's start moving to a place where we're actually fighting for rights

when we're living in a time where it's a hostile environment. Phil, thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt, but we have limited time. And as I say, the phone line, not the best. But thank you very much, Phil Opoku-Jima. She's the co-founder of UK Black Pride. And I think actually the organisation of UK Black Pride is overwhelmingly female. Just very briefly, Angela Wilde, surely it's possible to be passionately pro-lesbian without being anti-trans anybody?

Nobody is anti-trans. What we are seeing is that the trans politic is erasing us. We are just defending our rights. I do not agree with that. I think lots of lesbians would disagree with that as well. Brief word from you, Angela Mason. I'm thinking tonight is the big football match. It is. And I

think women's football is really going to do an awful lot to empower women generally and also lesbians. So to end on a note of optimism, we're here, we're queer, we're lesbians, we're still going forward. And the score tonight, Angela?

Oh, 3-1. 3-1, yes, to us. I'm glad to hear it. Thank you all very much. Good to see you, Kate. Thank you to Angela Wilde as well and, of course, to Angela Mason. And you can take part on social media at bbc woman's hour and good luck of course to england tonight uh full coverage on five live if you want the radio commentary and bbc one for the telly and

actually we need to celebrate this because this has been huge progress to the idea of everybody sitting down tonight with a pizza to watch england women play in a World Cup semi-final. Let's hope we don't get the normal result. Now, remember the pre-selfie era, when if you wanted a really nice shot of yourself, you actually had to ask somebody else. I mean, it seems so weird now. All those middle-distance shots where your eyes turned out to be a little bit closed

or your face did that funny thing that you really can't stand, but other people don't seem to notice. Every so often though somebody would get you and there would be a photograph of you that you really liked that captured you in your pomp at your best just having a moment. So we want you to rummage through all those shoe boxes full of old photos and send us the photos of you on your best day. You can tweet us now at BBC Women's Hour. You want to use the hashtag My Best Day. You can email us if you like and stick the photos in an attachment, but just don't send us your precious photographs, please. Do it the high tech way, preferably on Twitter at BBC Women's Hour. Hashtag My Best Day with your favourite image of yourself and as a treat to the nation you will see an image of me.

I'm looking at it now actually. I'm really impressively attired in a pair of ill-fitting jeans. I know that to be a Marks and Spencer's cotton jumper from the 1990s and I'm at my most relaxed inner radio studio in blue baseball boots in We Think about 1992. One of my more unkind colleagues said I looked about 12, but I think I was probably at the time about 26 and really did believe I was the greatest broadcaster in the world.

So make sure you have a look at that image and it hopefully will inspire you to send us your own. Now, the much respected Scottish-American composer Thea Musgrave has written more than 150 works, including some major orchestral pieces and operas. She was the first female composer commissioned by the Cheltenham Music Festival back in 1956. She's 94, she's still working, and her trumpet concerto gets its premiere at the same music festival this Saturday.

It's going to be performed by Alison Balsam and the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Mirga Krashni-Eiti-Tieler. So how did this concerto come about? Exactly a year ago, I first met Alison Balsam. I was staying with friends and she arrived and said, would I like to write a trumpet concerto? For her? So I thought, hmm, that sounds

very interesting. And then it got even more interesting, because as we started to discuss what it might be, I asked her about her work and so on and so on. I hadn't heard her live. So of course, once she left, I rushed to YouTube to hear her and was absolutely dazzled. Anyway, while she was there, a wonderful remark she made got me thinking. And the remark was, I really like to sing with the trumpet. Now, the trumpet for me had not been an instrument that I thought about singing. It was more, you know, making statements and being fast and brilliant, but singing, that was a new done. And when I was in Edinburgh, I have a great friend there who is a wonderful painter, Victoria Crow. And she said, I have an exhibition on. And then I did something I've never done before and was really crazy when you think about it.

But the exhibition was her paintings of trees. And I saw one particular painting. And I don't know where this remark came from, but I said to my husband, that painting is my trumpet concerto. What do you mean by that? Exactly. I'm not... You don't know. Yeah, well, I do know.

Having thought about it, it was absolutely an instinctive reaction. What I was responding to was a painting of a single tree with such energy moving out and stretching out and reaching out. And I think that's what I felt, the energy of it, but also the reaching out. And I suddenly thought, maybe this really could be the Trumpet Concerto, and I could choose some other paintings that could go with it to make a kind of suite, because they were all of trees. And so that it would be like the journey through life when you reach out and you meet new people, you meet friends, you meet lovers, you meet ideas, you meet different things that you get interested in, different

tacks you might take, all that kind of thing. And I thought that might be interesting. So what happens in the work, eventually, when I got to work on it, was that the trumpet starts out and begins to reach out to certain players. And this is what happens through the work. I know that you believe that you have to listen very closely to the musicians, don't you? And you actually, of course, you listened to Alison and you followed what she wanted. She wanted her trumpet to sing. She wanted her trumpet to sing. And is it going to sing?

I hope so. I hope she feels it's singing and not just playing. But also she has a dramatic role because she's reaching out to these players. She gives cues and she plays duets with different players in turn. And then there's a secret ending when she finds the right person. I'm not going to tell you what it is.

You have to come to the concert. Well, you've got me intrigued now. So it sounds a very inclusive piece. It's something that everyone could get involved with. I hope so. Because although I've written works, musical works, which to do with paintings before, it's movement by movement, and they don't link together. But this one, the movements all link together musically and also scenically. But what's interesting is that one of the paintings is, I forget the exact title, but it's a snowscape where the trees are covered with snow. But I decided that the music should begin before the painting, because paintings exist in space, whereas music exists in time.

So I begin that movement when it's green and the snow hasn't arrived. OK, can I interrupt? And the snow arrives through the movement. And as a listener, I will be able to detect this, will I? Yes. If I'm a good enough listener. They're dancing around and she's having a great time actually. Here she's having a dialogue with a clarinet and the cello's a

pizzicato and they're having a great time. And all of a sudden a big string cluster arrives and dampens things down. And then it sort of thins out and they can dance a little bit more. You see, at this point, I would love to be able to say to the listeners, and now we're going to hear a piece, but of course we can't. It hasn't happened yet. It hasn't happened yet. So I want to know how nervous are you about this? Or are you excited? I'm excited. We are desperate to play some of your music. We know we can't play the trumpet concerto. So if you were to pick something that we could play people, what would it be? Well, how about Turbulent Landscapes?

Because that is a piece that's based on pictures, based on pictures of Turner. And so when I used to come to London a lot, I always went to the Tate Gallery to see the Turner paintings. I think they're absolutely fabulous. How fantastic to be as... Well, I mean, clearly you are genuinely excited, exhilarated about the prospect that awaits you this weekend. Absolutely. I hate in a way to go on about your age, but you are 91.

I'm afraid so. And there will be people listening who think, well, I haven't got half the energy of that woman and I'm 36. So is there a secret here or is it that you're simply doing what you love? The secret is this, have Scots parents. OK. Well, I'm afraid it's too late for me there. I mean, it isn't as simple as that. It's the fact that you are doing something you are brilliant at and you love it. I'm doing something. I haven't retired because I love doing what I'm doing.

So why retire? So wish me luck. I do wish you luck. I am also very interested in the fact that you still talk very passionately about learning and about the importance because I have written for the trumpet in orchestra pieces and also in brass quintets and stuff like that. But I've never written a concerto. That's a different animal. And so I have picked Ali's brains mercilessly, you know, because why not ask, you know, is it easier to do this or is it easier to do that? And she said, well, that is actually better than this. So, OK, because what I always tell my students, you know, make friends with the performers, learn from them. There's no way way you can play like a player who practices hours every day and is on the instrument. And also instruments change, you know, the way things are built and so on change. You have to keep up with it.

So and the other thing I believe is that things should not be unnecessarily difficult. They can sound difficult, but they mustn't be difficult to play. For the sake of it. Do some composers deliberately set out to challenge musicians then? Yes, sometimes. And sometimes it sounds wonderful and something, you know, really difficult can sound difficult and actually is not that difficult. What I really hate is when something sounds easy, but is actually very difficult to play. That seems to me to be a real waste of time.

Can I ask you a little bit about your hearing? I know it's not as perfect as it used to be, but I've read that you retreat into your imagination and your hearing there is still perfect. Yeah, I mean, I compose much more at my desk than at a keyboard because, first of all, my ears are sort of in tune. But if I listen to the keyboard, it's not always well in tune. So hearing in the abstract, then I have to rely on my husband to tell me if the orchestra is actually doing what they're supposed to do, because I don't always hear that clearly anymore. I had very good hearing till I was in my late

70s. And then the inevitable happens. What you lose is your upper partials, which means... What does that mean? That means that the high consonants like k, t, d, all those consonants are at a very high pitch. And that's what you lose. It's not that you need to hear people speak louder. You need to hear people speak more clearly like that rather than like that, where you lose a consonance. When I speak like that, the consonants have gone, as opposed to speaking like that. I will try. I'm terribly conscious now about this. Was there ever a time when you thought that hearing loss might mean that you have to stop working? Well, I'm not going to face that right now. I still can manage up to a point and I hear enough, you know, on the synthesizer. I hear

in my imagination first and then I have to make sure that what I've written on paper is what I have heard in my imagination. So to any would-be composers listening, what I've picked up from you so far is never stop learning, always talk to musicians, always, consult with them, cooperate with them and seek inspiration from anything and everything. Would that be right? What turns you on? Absolutely.

It's exciting. It's a journey through life. Fantastic to be in her company, even just for a couple of minutes. The much respected Scottish-American composer, Thea Musgrave, and the Cheltenham Music Festival runs from the 5th of July until the 14th of July.

And I hope that premiere of the trumpet concerto goes well on Saturday night. And Alison Balsam, of course, the performer, she is absolutely terrific. Now, this is a book that, well, about which there is much chatter. And the author, Lisa Tadeo, is here. The book is called Three Women, Lisa. I just asked you, actually, how would you like to be described?

And you said, I'm a nothing. But to be fair, you're a journalist. Yes. There's nothing, nothing about that. So Three Women is I think the frankest and probably most explicit book about female sexuality I have ever read. How did you come to write this book? Well, I had read Gay Talese's Thy Neighbour's Wife. Are you familiar with Mr. Talese? Tell me more. So he is a journalist. He's about 82 right now. And he wrote a very wonderful magazine profile about Frank Sinatra, which was called Frank Sinatra Has a Cold. And he immersed himself

in Sinatra's world, even though he didn't get a chance to talk to him. And then he wrote this book called Thy Neighbor's Wife, which was taking a pulse of sexuality back in the late 70s and the early 80s. And he went to Sandstone, which was the swingers retreat in Topanga Canyon. And he immersed himself very in the real sense of the word. Okay, well, sales of that book will be rocketing. Your book, would it be fair to say it was the female equivalent? Yes, that's exactly what I was going to. So his book was from a very male point of view. So I wanted to explore sexuality and desire from a female perspective. And you've done so through the lives and sex lives of three women, Maggie, Lena and Sloane.

Now, Maggie basically becomes the talk of her small town because she takes one of her high school teachers to court. Lena is married to a man called Ed. She had been horrifically, well, she'd been raped, hadn't she, by young boys when she was in her teens. Her husband, Ed, just won't touch her. It's basically a sexless marriage. And then there's a woman called Sloane, and her husband wants her to sleep with other people, sometimes in front of him, sometimes telling him about it. How did you pick these three women? Where did you find them? So I drove across the country six times. I spent eight years either looking for people or embedding myself in their lives. And I came to find each of them.

Maggie, I found while researching a group of women in Medora, North Dakota, and I read a newspaper story about a young woman who had just taken her high school teacher with whom she had had a relationship allegedly to court, to trial. And because he had, not because, but one of the reasons was that he had just been named North Dakota's Teacher of the Year. And that was the point at which she decided to do something? Yes. And then Sloan, I had moved into her town in Newport, Rhode Island, which is quite a summer community. And it was a very touristy spot. And I heard rumors about her after I had moved there, one of which was that she was a swinger. And the other one was that her husband wanted to

have sex with her every day and not only did she allow it but she enjoyed it and people were talking about this yes they knew it they knew it they knew it how because it was you know it was a rumor that uh was was um perpetuated and also you know just oh it was it was, it was a wide-ranging rumor that nobody actually said out loud. Did you pay these women? Because they have told you everything. Yes, I did not pay them besides taking them out to drinks and dinner occasionally. Why did they want to engage with you at all? I think that almost everybody likes someone to listen. And for these three particular women, they were being judged by their communities.

And I was a non-judgmental ear that also was not at first a member of their community. Did it surprise you that they were so willing to engage with you? Yes, I'm still in awe of how honest and raw they were with me. And I, you know, that's why it took so long to find people to talk to me because very few people are that honest and open and willing to let somebody embed in their lives. Yeah, I mean, at one point, presumably, you could have written this book about 150 different women, but you decided to focus on just three. Yes. All of whom, I mean, I think it's fair to say, all of whom had had some deeply unpleasant and challenging experiences early in their life. And to one degree or another, you can disagree with me, then dictated the course of the rest of their lives.

And they're certainly their sexual lives. Yes. And I would say the other thing that I found was that their mothers were a big part of the way that they organize their desire later in life. In what way? I, you know, I think we always talk about daddy issues, or at least we do in the States. And we never really talk about mommy issues, which I think is interesting, because I think that I certainly have mommy issues, for example. But I think that the desires of our mothers and whether they communicate them or not, is something that weighs heavily on us in our future. So for those of us who are mothers, and we want to help our daughters in particular,

how should we behave? You know, I don't, I have a four-year-old, and I'm still considering that every day. I'm wondering how I'm messing her up. But, you know, I think that one of the things I always want to make sure of is that she's not waiting around for somebody in the future, whether she's, you know, looking for a man or a woman, that she's not waiting around for somebody in the future, whether she's, you know, looking for a man or a woman, that she's not waiting for a phone call or whatever the future equivalent will be of a phone call. I could talk for many, many hours about this book. But for the purposes of this interview, can we just focus on Lena? Because I think Lena's story was the most

poignant. So outline her circumstances. So Lena, who had been raped by three young men when she was in high school, had when I met her, I started this discussion group after moving to Indiana. And she came in and right away, I was just struck by her. And she was about to embark upon two things. The first being that she was going to leave her husband. And she came from a very traditional Catholic background. And this was something that was not okay in her community. And she was about to leave him because he had said that he no longer wanted to kiss her on the mouth, that the sensation offended him. And their couples therapist said, well, that's all right, Lena, the way that you feel about wet wool is the way that your husband feels about kissing you on the mouth. And the second thing

was that she had just reconnected with her high school lover who was the love of her life on Facebook. And she was about to embark on an illicit affair with him. And the immediacy of her story was just so stunning to me. I have to say, the scenes, what you describe in great detail, the sex that she then has with the lover she reconnects with. Frankly, some of it is erotic or could be interpreted as erotic. But are you surprised by that? You know, I'm slightly surprised because I wrote it explicitly, Lena's section, more than anybody, more than the other two women, because she was not so much, it wasn't about sex, it was about finding herself after. Does that have genuinely pathetic longing, wasn't it?

Yes, you know, a lot of people call her pathetic, and I understand that, but I also think... But I don't mean that nastily. No, no, I understand. I'm just saying, you know, I think that she had a lot of agency in the sense that she was allowing herself to feel those feelings of running after him all the time. She could have stopped, but she would, you know, pull babysitters out of a hat. And she had very little money. And she would, you know, drive one car with hadn't enough gas mileage, drive the other car. And she did all this to see this man who made her feel alive. And we should we should say that there is a comic element, the man in question was not one of life's charms. No. But, you know, something she said and she began to realise as the relationship went on was that the way that he was in the bedroom

was almost like a movie star. And, you know, I think that can be true, that people shock us in different ways and in different parts of their lives. The most poignant bit is when you outline a terrifically passionate scene between the two of them. And then she reveals to you, I think you ask her, how long did you spend with him? And it's in some truck stop, car park somewhere. And she said, oh, I think it must have been about 30 minutes.

Yeah. As long as that. Yeah. And I read that last night, heartbroken. Yeah. Because this meant everything to her. And he just drives off. But those 30 minutes meant, you know, a thousand years to her. So, yeah, it was quite, I mean, I think I started crying when she told me that.

We're coming to the end, but what do you want people to take from this book? Because I think some people will object, frankly, to some of the details. Oh, certainly. The first thing I would say is that, you know, judging other people is often our own projection of our own shame onto their lives. Rather, you know,

Freud 101, but that's what I found. And the second thing is that an early male reader of my book said something that was really, really wonderful

and he said that he didn't know how much indifference of a man or whomever is the alpha in the relationship could be so wounding to another person which I think Lena's story illustrates in a very amazing manner. Lisa Tadeo and her book is

called Three Women. It's frank and it's interesting, probably not for everybody but it's well worth a look if you were intrigued by what she had to say. Let's just catch up with the emails which have come in largely about our first conversation today about lesbian life and so-called lesbian erasure in 2019. It's probably not surprising that that was the conversation that got you going today. This is from Laura. Lesbians aren't trendy and decorative like gay men. The only acceptable lesbian has got to be attractive so men can fancy them. Lesbians are threatening to the male status quo

and to the patriarchy. It is true that the feminist movement has been very dominated by white women and black women have been marginalised because of conscious and unconscious racism. By the way, Gentleman Jack is great. It's about the first time I've seen somebody I can identify with in mainstream television.

Well, not unassociated with that. I think we've got the musicians that the musicians who sing the Gentleman Jack theme song are on Woman's Hour. I'm looking for guidance. Is it tomorrow? Is it Thursday? I think it's Thursday. I'm so across this. It's Thursday. So you can hear them later in the week. Another listener, the erasure is happening because of the attempts to redefine womanhood to include men. I was reported for hate crime at Bradford Pride for having a sign which stated lesbian equals female homosexual. Another listener, Cyberspice. Nobody is forcing anyone to love anyone. Either you love someone or you don't. No one is forcing anybody. I know plenty of lesbians who have trans women partners. Women like the get the L out lot are by far the minority. This is anonymous. Let's

be clear. Each person is entitled to their own experience. No one is entitled to impose their experience on others. If you want to change your sex, well, go ahead. But if you think that change makes you the same as people who were born like that, you need to think again. Trans people need to stop claiming territory that isn't theirs and honour themselves by creating their own. Tracey says, As the mother of a trans man, there is definitely negativity towards trans men within the gay community. Although plenty are accepting, my son and his male partner have faced negative abuse

from within the LGBTQ community. I agree with the contributors saying that the LGBTQ community needs to unite to protect all members against increasing hostility from the right. From Mark, I just heard one of your lesbian guests say that women are pressured to be attracted to trans women, but that she's never heard of the parallel in gay men. Well, it does happen. A well-known gay dating app sends articles and videos to its users, pressurising them to stop doing what they call femme-shaming, which is failing to show an attraction to effeminate men or women who identify as men. The gay community has been saying for decades that one cannot control one's attractions, but now they're accusing people of bigotry

in order to shame them into trying to change their attractions. This is outright manipulation and it's completely unacceptable. Another listener says, wasn't one of the strengths of the gay rights movement to make publicly acceptable that people could present however they wanted without public stigma? From the early days of women's lib, says Margaret, I could never understand why we took gay lib, in brackets male, to our hearts. In every society throughout history where male homosexuality was accepted, women were regarded as third-class citizens. Why are we surprised that women are being squeezed out? We have no value in a society like that. From Rachel, a Re Your LGBTQ

discussion. I'm a post-op trans woman and whilst yes, inclusion is essential, should we not be defining between pre and post-op trans women? I support any lesbian who doesn't want to have sex with a pre-op trans woman or indeed anybody who identifies as trans because they have a penis. It seems logical to me, says Rachel, who also says she loves Woman's Hour. Well, Rachel, thank you for that. Good to have you.

And from another listener, I don't accept trans women as biological women. I accept them as trans women. Whether I fancied one or not would be an individual thing depending on how I felt and how the other person came across. What about the experience of lesbians whose female partners transitioned to male? This is quite a tricky emotional journey. I can't believe Stonewall refused to debate, not about whether trans women have a right to their lives and be treated fairly,

but about the complex implications of some of the crossover impact on biological women's lives, e.g. sport. What if those who have transitioned post-puberty will be playing in the next Women's World Cup? I object to being called a cis woman. As a dyke, I was brought up to name myself, not to be named by others. So that's the view of another listener. So many emails this morning on that. And I hope we've given a fair cross section's the view of another listener. So many emails this morning on that and I hope we've given a fair cross-section of the points of view coming into the programme, but you can keep them coming.

We do welcome your thoughts via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Also, I want you to take part in our pre-selfie photo love experiment. Do you remember, there was a magazine called Photo Love, wasn't there? It's all coming back to, yes, Lucinda's nodding.

She obviously got it too. This is an idea. We want you to share the image of yourself, and this is pre-selfie, so it will be taken by somebody else, where for whatever reason they got you on a good day or just having a terrific time, your best moment. We want you to send your images to us at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and use the hashtag My Best Day. And we've had some terrific ones. I

loved the one that I think it was Melanie sent us, sitting on top of the Malvern Hills, which is a place I'm very fond of, with her mum and dad in 1991. That was great. And we had a lovely image of a young woman on her 21st birthday from the 1980s. I think it was 89. We've had some breastfeeding shots in gorgeous Dingley Dells, and we had at least one woman who was proudly cement mixing in the south of France. So this is all good stuff. Please do get involved. Also like Fiona, who says, very honestly, I am mother to three beautiful children, this is my favourite photo it's me with my gorgeous spaniel Milo who's taught me so much animals says Fiona are a big part of our

lives this is what we need from you really your happiest day photographs your best images and they can't be selfies so send them to at BBC Women's Hour and use the hashtag my best day and we might well be in touch with you. Join Jenny for the programme and the podcast tomorrow. Is the daily grind getting you down? Fancy taking a break and going out into nature this summer? Then look for Go Wild and BBC Sounds, a place for some of the best nature programmes from Radio 4.

Get some inspiration for your next adventure, no matter how big or small. Just search for Go Wild and BBC Sounds and set out on your next adventure today. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.