Woman's Hour - Strictly's Motsi Mabuse, New PM priorities, Author Holly Bourne on female friendship, Women and cost of living crisis

Episode Date: September 6, 2022

Strictly judge Motsi Mabuse on her autobiography, Finding my Own Rhythm - from a young dancer in apartheid era South Africa to renowned Latin dance champion and TV star.Liz Truss is the UK's new prime minister. What will be her priorities? Which women will she promote in her first reshuffle? What will her leadership style be? We hear from Katy Balls; the deputy editor of The Spectator, and Hannah Al Othma from The Sunday Times.Pregnant women are advised not to drink alcohol, but what about eating fish? The guidance on this can be confusing - with many women avoiding fish altogether when pregnant. But a new study shows that avoiding fish could be the wrong thing to do. We hear from co-author professor Jean Golding who specialises in Paediatric and Peri-natal Epi-deemiology at the University of Bristol.With inflation running at over ten per cent, it’s understood that Liz Truss – who becomes prime minister later today – is considering a freeze on energy bills as one of her first acts in office. The Women’s Budget Group argue that women are less prepared to face cost of living rises, due to lower wages and savings, and in particular they are concerned about job losses for women working in small businesses which could result from increasing fuel costs. Women make up the bulk of those working in the hospitality, retail and care sectors. Sara Reis is the deputy director at the Women’s Budget Group and joins Jess to discuss their latest report.Holly Bourne writes fiction for teenagers and adults, and female friendship is central to her books. In her new adult novel Girl Friends, Jess and Fern are millennials whose passionate closeness as teens is central to both of their lives until things fall apart. When they meet more than ten years later they are forced to reassess their friendship and how it was shaped by the sexual politics of the time they grew up in.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now from eight initial candidates, Liz Truss later today will officially take over as the new Prime Minister, the third woman to hold the post and also become leader of the Conservative Party. There are so many questions facing her. The biggest one being how she will deal with the cost of living crisis. We'll delve into that, of course, but we'll also discuss how she will govern the country, how she'll differ from what's gone before, who she is as a person and her leadership style. Also on the programme, how one organisation believes women

are less prepared to face the cost of living crisis than men. Plus, we're almost at that time of year, aren't we, when Strictly Come Dancing takes up our Saturday evenings. Strictly Dutch and award-winning dancer Motsi Mabuse will be in the studio with me to talk about this year's competition and also her new autobiography, called Finding My Own Rhythm. And that's exactly what I'd like to ask you about this morning. What does dancing mean to you? Now, Motsi describes it as freedom, love, even therapy.

Tell us when and where you dance and why. I am maybe hard to believe, but a little bit shy and don't like to dance in the middle of a dance floor in front of everyone. So when I'm dancing, it's usually by myself in my room in front of a mirror. What do you do? Send us a WhatsApp or a voice note on 03700100444. Remember that data charges may apply. Text us on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website as well. Also on the programme, we'll be continuing to look at female friendship, talking to the author Holly Bourne, who writes about navigating friendships through different stages in our lives. But first this morning, Liz Truss takes over as the new Prime Minister later today and will need to make good on a number of pledges she made during her campaign to be not only our PM, but leader of the Conservative Party. I will deliver a bold plan to cut taxes and grow our economy.

I will deliver on the energy crisis, dealing with people's energy bills, but also dealing with the long-term issues we have on energy supply. And I will deliver on the National Health Service. So where on earth does she start with her overflowing intray? Who will she promote to her first cabinet? And what type of leader will she be? Well, I'm joined now by Katie Balls, the Deputy Editor of The Spectator, who's on the line from Westminster,

and also by Hannah L. Othman from the Sunday Times, who joins me also on the line and is in Manchester. Welcome to the programme, both of you. Hannah, I'll start with you because we heard a little bit of that acceptance speech there and you didn't think too highly of it judging by your tweets. You said they've known this speech was coming for weeks and that was really the best they can do. What did you make of it i mean it just sort of illustrates how different liz um trust is to boris johnson sort of his strong point is kind of his oratory and you know he swept in on this huge um mandate from party members and she sort of scraped

not not exactly scraped through but she I think she has the the lowest um margin in it certainly in recent times and then gave a bit of a lackluster speech afterwards and I think um that's something that she's going to have to improve on I think throughout the campaign she has improved and you'd hope that maybe she's saving her best for today when she'll give her first speech as prime minister but you know she really has a job on her hands to sort of um keep hold of those people who are not naturally conservative voters in places like the northwest where i'm based um and i think you know she's going to do that she's going to to have to sort of work on engaging people and

enthusing people. Yeah, you mentioned the kind of low level of support. She won with 57.4% of the vote, which is the lowest level of support for a Conservative Party leadership winner since the rules were changed back in 1998. Katie, before we look at her proposed policies, which of course she'll outline a bit later today when she makes that speech around tea time, you've met her, you've interviewed her. Who is Liz Truss? What is she like? Well, I think what's interesting is you saw in the speech yesterday, it was pretty short. I actually think the speech this afternoon will also be rather short. That's the sense from her team. And I think there was a sense that she will be not particularly showy Prime Minister in some ways. I think she acknowledges that media is perhaps not her

strong suit. And that's why you hear her saying things like delivery, delivery. And therefore, I think that it will be a bit of a difference to a predecessor that some I think will just find quite tricky to get used to which is this is a prime minister who is not a natural in the media and I'm not sure you know how much they're going to lean into that in terms of who she is as a person what what the slightly odd thing about Liz Truss is she is often compared to Theresa May so when people are saying she's coming in this weak position, she has a divided party, could she be the May bot 2.0? She can appear, would not in media appearances. Yet, if you speak to MPs and those who know her best,

they say the difference between Theresa May and Liz Truss is actually, Liz Truss does have a personality behind closed doors. She is fun. They say that she is someone who, you know, has these karaoke parties, you know, does these come dine with me who you know has these karaoke parties you know does these come dine with me you know sessions with her children it's just that you don't always see that side and I think she can often put this veneer up which is doing media which means that she can come across more robotic than she would be um when the cameras weren't there why don't we see it why has she

decided to to keep that that part of her life separate, if that makes sense? Well, I think there's a few things. I think one is, as a figure in politics, and particularly as a woman in politics, you are ultimately under lots of scrutiny and criticism. I think people do just put a guard up sometimes. And I think that sometimes that is what you see with her when she's doing these appearances. And then also there's obviously an active choice to,

I don't think she talks about her family particularly in a way that I think that if you hear from her, you know, those close to her about her close family unit, there probably is a way to, I mean, it's probably a crass way of putting it, you know, market to show a softer side, but yet it's something she's never particularly leaned into. I think she wants to be taken seriously and therefore, you know,

focuses less on that and more on policy, but it might be something she has to look at. Now, of course, she is going to be Prime Minister. Well, of course, you mentioned, Fam, she has two teenage daughters. And of course, we haven't seen teenagers in Number 10 since the Blair years. And as you say, she doesn't speak about them much publicly, but they are very much, you know, a part of her life. They're very much a part of her political life it would seem they they helped her out during her campaign do you think she might decide to bring them more into the limelight i think she's pretty protective of her private life um but her children i mean are just a big part of her life as in um i think there was a quote in one of these profiles a year or so ago which is just you know this trust prefers hanging she says why do you need friends when you have kids you can just hang

out with your kids and she is someone who and i think they do things like advise her on her wardrobe um they are you know in some of these big meetings or the celebration she's been having you know they are there so you'll see some of it but i think that she is actually quite a protective parent so probably you know not particularly want to, you know, thrust them out there. And her husband so far has pretty much remained in the background. But will we expect to see to see more of him? Will he be active? I think the plan as it stands is that her husband will take a very low profile role. Of course, when you're living in Downing Street, there are limits. But I think if you think about Boris Johnson

and his wife, Carrie, I don't think that this will be akin to that on any level. And actually, they will try not to make the husband the story. Hannah, do you think it's important that a politician, particularly in Liz Truss's position, would want to, I suppose, bring her family more into the limelight to show a different side to her um I think you know it's sort of I don't think it's necessary I mean if

you look at Trita May her husband Philip played um quite a backseat role so I don't think that's necessarily an expectation you know as Katie said with um Boris Johnson Carrie Johnson was such a huge figure and and in that premiership and so much in the public eye um but I think you know if Liz Truss doesn't want to bring her family to the front and centre I don't think that's you know necessarily something that she will be obliged to do. Now, Katie, everyone's been talking about the fact that there's so much that Liz Truss has to sort out because there is so much going on in the country. It doesn't sound like she's going to get much of a honeymoon period. You know, you think about the cost of living crisis, energy bills soaring,

many trade unions striking or balloting on strike action. Where do you think she has to start in terms of her to-do list? Well, I think the cost of living crisis and specifically energy bills is where she needs to start. And on Thursday, the plan is that she will unveil this announcement. And I think it's a really important test in the sense that, obviously obviously during a Tory leadership contest, you're talking to the membership. And I think very much the Liz Trust campaign almost acted as though that was the only show in town. And now she pivots. And does she pivot to the point that you go back on some of the things she said to the membership? Because you're thinking about the wider electorate.

And I think that if she does do this freezing you know, freezing of the capital and energy bills or, you know, freezing the rise so the rise doesn't come into effect, that is something which would surprise some of her supporters because it would suggest that she does have a degree of pragmatism away from some of the more ideological stances she has.

And so I think that would set the tone. And then, of course, strikes the NHS. There's so many problems coming down the track. I think the first phase of her premiership, provided she makes it through, we'll just be dealing with these crises and then potentially get to the T to spring and you can focus on other things. Yeah. So one of the things that List Trust has proposed was, you know, to possibly cut VAT, possibly cut income tax. What do you make of that as a way of helping ease the cost of living crisis? I mean, she's, you know, she's responded to the criticisms that these won't help. You know, her proposed tax cuts won't necessarily help those most in need

by saying that it's more about growth and growing the economy and that sort of trickle-down economics but I think really you know we're only sort of maybe 18 months or so away from an election and I think really we are going to face a very stark winter and some of those who are going to be most affected by the problems with cost of living, energy bills, NHS crises, are those in what are now sort of marginal conservative seats. And it's a problem that the Conservatives haven't really had to this level before. A lot of these are, you know, sort of Labour seats that they didn't need to worry about too much. So I think it's sort of going to be a difficult balance for her. But I think really, you know, if they want to hold on

to these sort of so-called Red Wall or former Red Wall seats, I don't think those tax cuts are going to be enough. And we spoke about the kind of growing threat of industrial action and we spoke about it on of growing threat of industrial action. And we spoke about it on the programme last week, actually. And there are now more women than men in trade unions. And of course, Liz Truss plans to crack down on the right to strike. So how will that go down with trade unions, Katie? Well, not very well.

If you are going to obviously do this big crackdown. And I think it's also just a test of can Liz Truss hold her nerve on things like this? Because she talks a good game during the leadership contest in terms of bringing in plans so strikes don't cause the level of disruption they do. And also, I think, having restraint on pay but when you're actually living through that on a day-to-day basis particularly when ultimately Liz Truss is someone who keeps talking about economic growth and I want to go for growth but that means in a way in the Liz Truss view she is against things like extending the windfall tax so we could have a freeze on energy bills but the but it's unlikely that would come from new funds from these companies making record profits so how does her um stance on you know being pro-business and you know things

like not bringing that corporation tax rise um that could get politicized quite quickly as you know you're on the side of big business not these workers who you know are not even really getting you know um you know inflation pay rises that match inflation. And I think that could be uncomfortable for her. And the question is, does she blink or is she willing to actually be unpopular in that stance and keep going with her plan? Yeah, what do you think, Hannah?

Will she kind of be steadfast in that regard? I mean, it looks that way for now, but obviously, you know, we've got more and more industries sort of threatening to go out on strike. So, you know, how long can she hold off for? Or, you know, I'm sure she will want to avoid sort of three day weeks and, you know, school closures and things like this. But, you know, on the point about women, I think, you know, a lot has been said about, she's the third female Conservative Prime Minister, and obviously, that's significant. And that's embarrassing for Labour, who have never had a female leader. But I think critics would say that you have to look at not just her sex, but what she will do for women. And, you know, if you

look at cost of living, you've got more women who live in poverty than men. You've got more, as you say, women who are trade unionists than men. So if she wants to sort of win those female votes, I don't think being a woman will be enough. It will be how she responds to things like strikes. it will be how she responds to things like more people sort of falling into poverty, things like childcare. And, you know, I think that's going to be key. Yeah. And in terms of where she stands on women's issues, she has said that she wants to introduce a national domestic abuse register, and that register would cover all forms of domestic abuse including coercive control and financial abuse Hannah that's that's a positive no? It is but I my

understanding is there's no funding commitments linked to that and so what sort of charities and critics have said is that it's not enough unless you know you also promise that sort of adequate funding around domestic abuse and things you know women's refuges are saying at the minute that they are just sort of staring down the barrel of a gun because they are preparing for domestic abuse to increase during the cost of living crisis as it did during the pandemic relationships become more strained as finances become more strained and they're also facing problems with increased energy bills as everyone else's there's been no targeted support promised for that and so they're worried that they're going to have to end up turning women away and essentially you

know they've said worst case scenario is women will die. So a domestic abuse registry is good, is a step in the right direction. But it needs that sort of more immediate funding support as well to deal with domestic abuse, which is, you know, we're looking at another bad winter for that. And as you say, a lot's been made of the fact that she is the third female prime minister. And when we look at who might make up her cabinet, Katie, there could be quite a few women in very high profile positions, you think? Yes, definitely. I was a few weeks ago, I was writing a column for The Spectator and what her cabinet might look like. And I was speaking to a male politician who has supported her.

And he said, you know, the problem is if it's you know an old girls club I hadn't really heard you know I don't think I've heard that term before yeah I mean I personally from covering uh politics for the years I have old girls clubs don't tend to be the you know the main complaint when it comes to uh prime ministers forming their governments but I think it does does allude to the fact that she will be putting a lot of female politicians in senior roles. Her closest political ally is Therese Coffey, who there's been some to-ing and fro-ing

as what she will get, but it could be deputy prime minister now, along with health secretary. And then you have your first female chief whip. That's a plan they have. And I think that's partly about also trying to change some of the culture. That in itself obviously isn't going to do it but I think it does point to the fact that Liz Truss does think that some of the kind of the discourse or the way the House

of Commons can work can be a bit macho um and then Home Secretary expect to be Sue Adabraveman um Kemi Badenoch, Penny Mordaunt both being touted for roles. So I think this will be a cabinet where senior women are a big feature. So what we could have then is in the top positions, the top jobs within this cabinet, the likes of Home Secretary, as you mentioned there, Health Secretary, being two women. And also it's been suggested that the foreign secretary could be James Cleverley and the chancellor could be Kwasi Kwarteng. So you have women and people of colour in very high profile positions. Is that significant, Hannah? I mean, I think so.

I mean, if it is as we anticipate, and those are the people who fill those four big offices of state, it will be the first time that there hasn't been a white man um in one of those positions so i think that is significant um and i you know as i said earlier it's you know it's representation is clearly very important but it's also about what what that means and what they do for people from those communities, for women, for people from minority ethnic backgrounds. So, you know, it's not sort of an end in itself, but I think it is still a hugely significant moment. And as I say, again, you know know Labour had always presented themselves as the

party of equality and the Conservatives seem to be far ahead of them on some of these things. But of course not all women will be involved in this Katie, some will be left out including Preeti Patel who has resigned. Any surprises there that she stepped down? I think it's stepping down before you're pushed, ultimately. Or, you know, it becomes clear you haven't been offered a role. And this goes back, you know, regards to your gender, there's so much manoeuvring in politics. And I think Preeti Patel obviously couldn't decide whether or not she wanted to stand in the contest herself.

And then she didn't endorse. And I think what we're going to see in Liz Truss's cabinet which we should have the details of by the end of the day is there will be a theme which is the people who are being appointed to the most senior roles and the bulk of these appointments are like people who backed her and and that's she wants loyalty she feels like she's been pretty loyal over the years and some people you know question that and in terms of some of her interventions um but therefore I think there is a sense that she wants to promote the people who over the years. Some people question that in terms of some of her interventions. But therefore, I think there is a sense that she wants to promote the people who helped her get there.

Yeah, understandable. Katie Balls, Deputy Editor of The Spectator and Hannah L. Offman from The Sunday Times. Thank you very much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Now, how about a bit of this. Well, I thought that was really, really beautiful. I wish we had a 10 and something like a star or

a crown or something to just say how much more of a 10 that was. Simple, very, very good. The connection between you two. That is what I love. A 10 with a crown. Now, if you are a fan of Strictly Come Dancing,

my next guest, who you can probably hear already, will need no introduction. I'm very excited to have Mozii Mbuse in the studio with me. She is an internationally renowned dancer and judge on Strictly, which is returning to our screens for a 20th, that can't be right, 20th season next week, Saturday. Motsi has also just written a new autobiography, Finding My Own Rhythm, which documents her career from a young girl growing up in apartheid era South Africa to Latin dance champion and now TV star. Morning, Motsi. Great to have you with us.

Good morning. Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. I can't believe Strictly is back for the 20th series. The celebrity lineup, though, I have to say, very impressive. You've got the likes of Paralympian Ellie Simmons, TV presenter Helen Skelton. Kim Marsh is there as well. Now, tell me, are you able to tell just by looking at them how good they're going to be in the show? Well, you know, I think everybody does the same. As soon as we know the cast, you kind of Google up and social media, get yourself busy to just kind of get an atmosphere.

And you can see by the way they move, what they've released, whether they'll be able to dance or, let's say, to open themselves up to the show. I think that's the most important part. If you're really willing to open yourself up, go all the way, risk it, then there's a good chance that the dancing will also just become an easier an easier job let's say yeah I find I the ones that allow themselves perhaps to be a bit more vulnerable yes and go through that process of learning seem to do a lot better on the show a hundred percent I'd love to talk about your book finding my own rhythm yeah why did you decide to write this

I wrote this book because you know all of a sudden I was on the screens of a different country. And I think there was a lot of people. What I really love is people gave me a chance and I was accepted well. And I was like, what? But then I think it was just for me to say, listen, I know you see me on the screen and you see me having fun. But this is who I am. There's the whole package and being able to connect to whoever wants to listen to me or is interested to hear about my story and why I landed in the number one TV show in the UK.

Well, tell us about your story. When did you first fall in love with dance? I think Jane Fonda might have been involved well from the onset I mean as a little girl um when we had school holidays we were allowed to watch television and there was a lot of mostly music videos and I saw Whitney Houston I saw Brenda Fassi and obviously also ballerinas and from like really from the minute I saw that I I was like, this is what I want to do. I mean, I was just a little girl, but something about performing lit my light. And my parents knew it. And they were not from the kind of creative side. They were more of the academic side.

So they were really not taking it seriously. But I didn't stop. I did my own thing. You just went on regardless because you were enthralled by this yes and um I wanted to I wanted to do musicals I wanted to dance and sing and be on stage but we didn't have those opportunities at that time in South Africa so we went on holiday and then I saw ballroom dancing Latin dancing and I was looking at my mom and I'm like that that can we at least do that and then it was like you know we caught on we got organized my mom opened a dance club for us to dance and

found somebody to teach us and the story never ended we've had so many people get in touch because I asked people about dancing and when and why they like to do it. Abigail has said, dancing for me has always been freeing. The saying dance like no one is watching is very apt. Someone else has said, I love to dance and happy to do it anywhere. Yes, I feel a little self-conscious, but that soon wears off. How do you feel when you're expressing yourself for your body like that, when you're moving through dance? I feel like i have a busy brain i really have a busy brain i'm interested in a lot of things i am i'm you know i have my own businesses i travel and i do that so the minute i start dancing it takes about five minutes it's like a silent it's like nothing nothing in the head it's like just

emptiness and the connection to the music i feel my my body. I feel my emotions. And then I come out of that being even more clearer as to what I kind of in the situation we were in. So I think my mom created a little bit of a world for us where we could feel free and we could just laugh, we could just be. And it's fun. I mean, we wake up in my house and we're like, hey, put on the music and let's just jiggle it out. Everyone, my husband, my child, everyone, it's part of our lives. And I imagine you would have needed something like that, particularly when you were growing up under apartheid rule in South Africa. For people that don't know, that was obviously racial

segregation, which led to a lot of social exclusion, to poverty, police brutality and poor infrastructure. So how did that impact you as a child? How aware were you of that as a child? As a child, I mean, we were aware of riots. We were aware that we were second class citizens. We were aware that we had to work harder. My parents invested a lot. All their earnings went into our education and also, you know, that we have a house and our well-being. So I saw them try hard and I saw them put us into these schools where we were kind of the only black kids. And there's a bit of an energy and conflict situation all the time.

And we needed the space to be able to be free and be free of that. And that would be the dancing for us. That would be the space. That was your escapism. Escapism. And it was fun. I mean, I think there's a connection to music and dance generally in Africa, the continent. It's just our thing.

So I think she felt that that was safe and she could be around us all the time yeah i i get a sense of this steely determination from both your parents when you describe them in your book whilst your dad is more quiet and reserved he's still there's this determination about him where your mom is all action she's a doer. Which parts of which parents have you got? Or maybe you've got a mishmash of both because you're yourself very determined and very successful. I think our dad was the type of person that would give us kind of codes or like you have to be like a have. This is a have. You have to be a good friend with your mom.

You have to fight. Never fight with your mom you have to fight never fight with your sisters he was always the one giving the rules and my mom lived it she never told us anything that we have to do we saw it through our parents but there was very admit that we get educated and be successful in some way my dad was about discipline all the time. And they pushed us through that. You know, we knew there was racism. There's always going to be racism. And our parents were like, there is racism. And so what? Move. So that's kind of hard as a child. But at the same time, it gave us this kind of strength of saying, I know, I know, I know you see me coming. I know what you're thinking. I still want to go through that door. And it's tough as a child. It's tough,

but we pull through and you understand later in life, you know, you can't sit on that space and say, oh, I'm not getting through. You have to find ways. And I'm thankful for that. Now, when I'm 40 years old, I kind of realized how hard it is because it was because I'm a mom and I'm thankful for that. Now, when I'm 40 years old, I kind of realized how hard it is because it was because I'm a mom and I'm like, I don't want to do that to my child. So I'm going between different seats in my life and spaces to understand how can I be a better mom in the situation of being able to listen to my child and but at the same time saying girl it's gonna be tough but you can do it but with a more compassion of understanding and allowing her to say some words and be like yes I know and understand so I'm still finding that rhythm

of course that that is definitely a work in progress. And I think the people that have followed you on social media have really been drawn to you because of the vulnerability you've been willing to show them as an honesty. And they would have also seen on your social media how you've supported your Ukrainian in-laws because your husband, Evgeny, is Ukrainian, and they've had to escape the war. Yeah. And they're now living with you. How are they? And how is the situation? The situation is that we are constantly still in the war. I still have relatives in Ukraine. And there's a sense, you know, my husband kind of, he was Ukraine, Russia.

That was almost like brothers. Like it was, there was no difference, more more or less especially his mom is Russian so now there is a sense of Ukraine is separate and there's a daily reminder there is absolutely a daily reminder in my life that there's an ongoing war and people are suffering so you'll have good days when they're fine and then you'll have good days when they just sit on the veranda and they're like last night they were bombing um they come from kharkov and the sister my sister-in-law one of them is still in kharkov and it's like are we going to get her out um the dancers community is very much involved in um ukrainians because there's a large particularly in dancing um large

community from Ukraine. So when you are in our industry, you kind of also see it every day. They're trying so hard to raise funds. And there's a problem that now where we live, there is Ukrainians. So you get them out of the country, but it doesn't stop there. I mean, we are going to the offices, getting new ID cards, trying to find spaces. There's a different culture. There's a conflict between Germany and the people in Ukraine. There's kids. My little nephew who's here from Ukraine, he sat home for six months. He's going to school

the first time this week. And it's not a proper school. You know, they need to learn the language. They need to learn to speak German. So there's a lot of things we are trying to do in helping the people that have traveled from Ukraine. So you never stop. You never stop. You kind of always are thankful for saying, OK, we are in Germany. Yes, everything is getting so hard for us all but i mean if i have to think as a mom to send my son to a war then it breaks my heart we are paying a price but i don't yeah i don't want to see my child being in a situation where i have to say yeah go defend your country i just don't want

to do that yeah of course what you're doing is an amazing thing and it's good that you have the show strictly to kind of focus on which is coming back very very soon now just before you go tell me because it's you know it's a live show there must be a few

embarrassing moments that you've had can you remember any before we I have one ticking time bomb and that is my brain because embarrassing moments that you've had? Can you remember any before we? I have one ticking time bomb. And that is my brain because I speak so much German and my tongue feels like leather. So when I speak English and the nerves come in and there's just nothing I can do,

there's always a slip of German coming out. And I'm just like, oh, I'm so mortified because I have been speaking a lot of English, but I also speak a lot of German and out. And I'm just like, oh, I'm so mortified because I have been speaking a lot of English, but I also speak a lot of German and it's tough. I have to concentrate really, really hard to pronounce word properly, to soften my tongue. I guess I have a little of a German accent. So I'm just trying to kind of sound normal to everyone

and entertain everyone. That's not embarrassing at all, Motsi. That's absolutely fine. It's been such a pleasure to have you on Woman's Hour. I loved reading your book, Finding My Own Rhythm. It's out on the 8th of September and strictly returns to BBC One on the 17th. Thanks for coming on to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much.

Okay, next. With inflation running at over 10%, it's understood that Liz Truss, who becomes Prime Minister later today, of course, is expected to announce a freeze on energy bills as one of her first acts in office. The Women's Budget Group argue that women are less prepared to face the cost of living rises due to lower wages and savings.

And in particular, they're concerned about job losses for women working in small businesses, which could result from increasing fuel costs. Now, women make up the bulk of these working in the hospitality, retail and care sectors. Sara Reyes is the Deputy Director at the Women's Budget Group and joins me now to discuss their latest report. Good morning, Sarah.

Good morning. Thank you for having me. So this is the third in a series of reports I think you've brought out, which examine basically the impact of the cost of living crisis, specifically on women. Why are you particularly focusing on jobs this time around, do you think? Yeah, so this is another briefing on a series of briefings we are doing to analyse what has been the impact and what is being the impact of the cost of living crisis on women. And so we've looked at the income side of the equation. And I think it's really important also to note that this is not just a cost of living crisis, but also an income crisis.

And so we are coming out of a decade where incomes, particularly wages, have been stagnant. And as we all know, women are coming out from a more disadvantaged financial position because women are more likely to have lower earnings. And also, as you mentioned at the beginning, less savings to face up to a crisis where we're seeing soaring prices of essentials. So this time around, we're focusing on jobs because what we are seeing is a lot of small businesses up and down the country worried about their own energy costs, how they're going to face new energy bills coming into this winter, which in many cases are threefold, fourfold what they were a year ago, and wondering how they're going to cope, how they're going to continue to trade in these circumstances.

And a lot of these businesses were just now, you know, recovering from the pandemic. And so these is, you know, this is your local pub, your local shop, your hairdresser. And these are all sectors that we know have a majority of workers who are women. Yeah. And you mentioned, of course, the energy bills and the rising costs. But the government has already acted in that. It's given households across Great Britain these non-repayable discounts for this winter on their energy bills. That helps, doesn't it? It does help, but it is nowhere near the increases that we are now facing in October.

So at the time when the government introduced this one-off payments, this support back in May, the energy price cap in October was predicted to be much lower than it be enough to cover the doubling that we are seeing in terms of energy bills. So what we need to see is the government going further than it has. What would you like to see? What policy changes would you like to see mitigate these effects? So I think we, in the short term, we need to put cash on people's pockets to make sure that they are not going to be going through impossible decisions this winter in terms of whether to put food on the table or to heat their homes. So the government needs to either stop the energy cap going up in October or it needs to target support to the most vulnerable amongst us to make sure that people don't go without heating or eating this coming winter. And this, we believe that one of the best ways to do this would be to make sure that our social

security system is strengthened to be able to support the most vulnerable amongst us. So this could be uprating, so bringing the uprating in benefits, so making sure that benefits rise in line with inflation this coming October. And also, you know, when it comes to supporting larger families, a very easy way of doing that would be to increase child benefit. We're also expecting to see Liz Trust freeze energy bills. That would be very important for the government to undertake decisive action when it comes to spiraling energy costs.

And I think so. So I think that will be an important measure to take. What we believe is wrong, is morally wrong, is that that support will be funded by increasing energy bills in the in the coming decade or so. So making consumers pay for that support through higher energy bills in the next few years, at the same time as we are witnessing energy companies recording record profits. And so we what we would want to see is a windfall tax on energy companies profits at an energy. Sorry, a windfall tax that is stricter than what we have right now, which would not allow energy companies to avoid paying that tax on their profits by continuing to invest in fossil fuels, which are not a solution to this crisis and which would continue to harm our environment. Yeah. Sara Reyes, thank you so much for joining Deputy Director at the Women's Budget Group.

Now, when you're pregnant, there are lots of rules to follow to keep you and your baby safe. Some of those are around diets, what you can and can't eat and drink. For example, women are advised not to drink alcohol. But what about eating fish? Well, the guidance on this can be a little bit confusing with many women avoiding fish altogether when pregnant. But a new study shows that avoiding fish could be the wrong thing to do. Professor Jean Golding specialises in paediatric and perinatal epidemiology at the University of Bristol and co-authored this new study. Good morning, Jean. Good morning.

So just tell us then, what's the conclusion? Should pregnant women be eating fish or not? Pregnant women should definitely be eating fish. It has an enormous number of beneficial aspects to it. Different minerals and different vitamins are within fish. And they seem to do a very beneficial job in promoting the growth and development of the unborn child. What about those on a vegetarian or vegan diet that don't eat fish? That, I think, is a problem, although they can take supplements that have the sort of oils that are in fish. But personally, I would always advise, if possible, to eat fish. OK. Is there anything that, I suppose, any kind of weight to that old rule that we use everything in moderation when you're pregnant?

I mean, are we going too far down one road of rules for this, regulations for that? That's an interesting question. I think that's very likely. I think a mixed balanced diet is very important. But I also think that that should include fish. There was anxiety because fish does contain some mercury and mercury is not good but we've shown very convincingly I think that if you eat fish the mercury does no harm whatsoever to your unborn child. Just tell me about a bit more about this study it's very interesting because you've started this program haven't, called Children of the 90s, looking at thousands of children born in Bristol in the early 90s. What were you trying to find out exactly? Well, we were starting with a clean

slate, trying to collect information that would allow us to determine different factors that would be beneficial for a child's development. So that included the sort of diet that the mother was eating during pregnancy, as well as an enormous number of other things. But diet was really important. What surprising findings did you come out with, apart from the fish? Apart from how important fish is. There are almost so many that it's difficult to pick any.

It's always worth looking at the website of children of the 90s to see what's there. I tend to be excited by the things that have happened more recently. But we're showing, for example, that what happens in pregnancy can have effects on the, not just on the child in its early childhood, but way down the line when they're adults and our adult children are now having their own children, all of which gives us a lot more information to look at intergenerational effects down the line. Someone has WhatsApped us to say, eat seaweed, exclamation mark. Is that a good thing to do whilst pregnant? I think the idea of eating seaweed is because it's got iodine in it, which is an

important component. But it doesn't have the other things that one also needs that a fish would have. OK. So on the whole, fish is good. Professor Jean Golding, thank you for coming on the programme. And just to give you a flavour of everyone getting in touch about dancing, lots of people dancing both in public and in private as well. Someone has said, Kitchen Raven with my wee ones. My daughter is six today and Festival Living with my mama. Off to Abba for 90 minutes of dancing with them both and my auntie on Saturday.

That sounds like fun. Where do I dance? Maggie says, anywhere and everywhere. Still discovering it in my late 50s. It's been life-changing i danced in trafalgar square 800 of us um lots of people getting in touch so more people than me uh liking dancing in public whereas i would much prefer to dance uh alone in my room but thank

you keep getting in touch via social media, on the WhatsApp, on the text as well. Now, last Wednesday, in the first in a series called Forever Friends, Annie and Lizzie talked about their long friendship, how it went wrong, and then how and why they fixed it. Many of you got in touch to tell us about your friendships.

There are more of these stories coming and it's not too late to tell us yours. As I said, you can get in touch via text and WhatsApp. Now, a novel out this week called Girlfriends by Holly Bourne explores many of these issues. This is her third novel for adults, but Holly Bourne is best known as a young adult author. Her books include Am I Normal Yet? and The Manifesto on How to Be Interesting. And they're loved by older girls and teenagers. They get into relationships, mental health and happiness. The strength and importance of female friendship is central to all of her books.

And a pleasure to have Holly with us on the programme. Good morning, Holly. Good morning. Now, I can see perhaps why teen fiction would focus on friendship. Teen years, for me anyway, were all about finding your tribe, finding those that you feel most comfortable with and finding those that relate to you. But you've put it at the heart of an adult novel as well, which I find interesting. Why is that? um well because I feel like there was a lot to say because I write for teenagers and I write for adults what Girlfriends is is sort of me kind of putting on both my rightly hats in one novel and um it tells the story of um yeah these best friends as teenagers Fern and Jessica but um Fern's always very jealous of Jessica's because Jessica's you know the kind of the attractive friend who gets all the attention and you know that they have this kind of cataclysmic

falling out um when they're 19 and they don't see each other again until they're in their early friend who gets all the attention and you know that they have this kind of cataclysmic falling out um when they're 19 and they don't see each other again until they're in their early 30s and so it kind of is set half in the past and half sort of in modern day and it's sort of I feel like there's so many of us will have friendships that we lost from our teen times and I was writing the book in lockdown and kind of two of the things that were really coming out in lockdown were one lots of people getting in touch with people from the past I think lots of people going I've just randomly got a whatsapp from my ex I definitely had that and like you know in friends and it made everyone really reflect

um but another thing that I really noticed because I'm an ambassador for women's aid is um we had this huge kind of awakening from the recognition of the me too movement and the women's marches and there was this like this kind of real re-education about what sexual violence is and all that sort of stuff and I found that lockdown made lots of women really reflect on what happens to them as teenagers um and of go, oh, hang on, maybe that was assault, maybe that was illegal. And I was talking to a friend who works for Rape Crisis who said that they were getting lots of phone calls and lockdown about historical things. And so Girlfriends was the novel I wrote in that time where I kind of wanted to explore female friendship kind of

under the male gaze. And if you're a girl like me who was growing up growing up in the noughties where sexual violence was very normalized how did that impact your friendships and when you look back on those your tribe as it were like what was going on there and why are we falling out and um and just how complicated these friendships can be and made the books kind of sort of showing that the friendship is really important and wonderful, but it can be kind of ruined and tarnished by, yes, sort of like an Amal gaze and patriarchy. Yeah. What struck me was how strongly the two characters bonded. They really, it was almost like a love affair.

How are you able to kind of explain that bond? And is that something that you've drawn from from your own life or is that something you've drawn from talking to others I love that you say that because yeah I kind of when I was writing girlfriends it was to me a romance novel um and about and I do think when you're a teenage girl particularly it just feels so intense doesn't it yeah it is I think the first time you have a best friend as it were I think it's the first time you fall in love really um and you're having an intense relationship with somebody that you've chosen rather than just like you know you love your family members sort of kind of you're born with that and when you kind of start falling in love with people romantically that's different but yeah I feel like there's really intense female friendships where you're kind of messaging each other the moment you're away you

can miss each other before you've even said goodbye and you kind of stay up until the middle of the night talking at your sleepovers you know you really do fall in love and I think when these friendships end there's not enough kind of space given to how that can be just massively discombobulating it can be a huge grief um and also I think a lot of things that happen when you're a teenage girl is you get dumped for romantic relationship I think one of you kind of moves on to the falling in love romantically first and it can feel like this giant betrayal and um and yeah so I wanted the book to kind of really explore these kind of uncomfortable truths about jealousy and yeah the

grief and the hardships of when friendships end but also really celebrate that falling in love and you know seeing if you're psychic with each other and makeovers and um in jokes and that kind of giddy silliness that you know that women kind of really do like when they're away from from male watch of men. And that's what my teen books are about as well as just like just how much fun women have when they're kind of in safe spaces with each other. Yeah. And you mentioned again about the male gaze and that's a big part of a running theme within the book. And there was so much of it that I thought I've been in that situation when they were in a fast food restaurant and they're talking about sexual innuendos with a group of boys and you know talking about milkshake and what milkshake could actually be in terms of sexual innuendo and I thought I've had that

conversation so many times as a teenager and I wonder how you went about exploring how these teenage girls navigated their lives and their friendships amongst that idea of that sexual politics and the male gaze and how much it impacted not just them as individuals, but them as a couple. Yeah, well, I kind of the quote I had on my wall was Margaret Atwood, which was you are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur, which is a quote that I came across. And it completely messed me up for a while with how acutely true it is. That woman knows how to write a quote. And yeah, I just wanted to, yeah, that when I came of age, as it were, in the early noughties, political feminism just didn't exist. We were told that we'd achieved equality. It was in the kind of Blair years Blair babes there's lots of women on the cabinet um and yeah feminism was like a dirty word but even hardly mentioned at all and yet there um

yeah was we now look reframe things through me too like huge amounts of normalized sexual violence you know you went to parties and boys would do things to girls who had way too much to drink and that was completely normal um rape jokes were really funny m&m was christmas number one with us you know a song about a pregnant woman being driven off a bridge and i bought i bought that album you know and so so much of the book is exploring how did this shape us and how are we making sense of it as adults now that we've kind of maybe found feminism again and reframing it and how did it ruin our relationships because I feel like the male gaze is so powerful and the book I try to show that exists in female spaces even when men aren't watching and how girls self-objectify and say am I pretty and how they

kind of objectify their friends like has she got better legs than me has she got better hair than me we're actually cutting our female friends up into body parts in our heads and comparing who's better and who's thinner and who's and um and it's just a shame because I kind of believe in the power of women coming together and these friendships so it's quite showing it's such a shame that these things really do corrupt what is um an incredible thing I do think that the best thing about being a woman is female friendships it's almost worth all the other horrible things you have to do as a woman for just the joy of them um and yeah so the book is kind of saying remember who the real enemy is and try to not let that toxic kind of patriarchal comparison

jealousy um yeah and then yeah reach out and and keep with your friends you know as long as they're healthy friendships and not unhealthy friendships and I guess girlfriends is about these two women trying to see can we do it we're adults now can we get rid of the baggage that we grew up with and how we viewed each other and find each other and fall in love again yeah yeah and I really get the sense of that I have to say and whilst it is dark in places and quite raw in places it is that celebration of friendship and it's a great read and Holly thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Hour this morning it's been great to talk to you we've had a big response to the conversation I was having previously about pregnancy and eating fish.

Sarah has said on email, I had six children whilst vegan. Two are now doctors and one is an economist and another a master's in Spanish. They are healthy, intelligent, lifelong vegans. And I absolutely dispute a vegan diet can't be healthy whilst pregnant. Thank you, Sarah, for that view. Someone has said, I rarely take to joining in the debate, but really annoyed by your guest talking about eating fish whilst pregnant. Whilst great for those who eat meat and fish, for veggies and vegans like myself,

algae-derived omega-3s are a totally acceptable alternative. I have a thriving three-year-old and am 20 weeks pregnant again now. Thank you for that, Kaz. So clearly some people feeling as though fish is not necessarily to be healthy whilst pregnant. Thank you for listening to Woman's Hour. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more

questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.