Woman's Hour - Sue Barker, Period advert bans, Selling sexual assault in East Asia, Jenny Jungle

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

This Wimbledon will be the first in 30 years without the familiar presence of Sue Barker. Last year she stepped down from hosting the tennis tournament that she herself played in. In Sue's memoir, Calling the Shots, she recounts first reaching number three in the world tennis rankings, then becoming one of the most familiar faces of BBC sports broadcasting. She joins Krupa to talk about the highs and lows of both careers.Facebook has removed an advert for a sanitary towel product because it referenced the words vagina, vulva and clitoris. It's the latest in a long line of period ads that have caused a stir. So what is and isn't appropriate when it comes to period adverts? To discuss Krupa is joined by Chella Quint is the founder of Period Positive, a menstruation education advisor and author and Alice Enders who is Director of Research at Enders Analysis which follows TV and advertising trends.The Japanese government is currently debating a landmark bill to reform the country's sexual assault laws, but a highly prevalent form of predatory sexual behaviour has been omitted from the discussion. ‘Chikan' refers to a practice where women are sexually assaulted in public and in some cases videos are sold online. The BBC World Service's investigative unit, BBC Eye, has gone undercover for a year to unmask the men cashing in on sexual violence. Krupa is joined by BBC reporter Zhaoyin Feng.Would you fancy hurtling down a twisting mountain road at 80 miles an hour, balancing on a skateboard? That’s the favourite hobby of Jenny Schauerte, better known as Jenny Jungle. She and a group of other female skateboarders are featured in a new documentary, WoolfWomen: Now or Never about a trip to Turkey to try out a high altitude run that had never been skated before. Jenny, a former World No 2 in the sport, joins Krupa in studio.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good to have you with us. We have a treat in store for you this morning. In a moment, one of the nation's most loved and recognisable broadcaster, Sue Barker, will open up about her career in tennis and broadcasting and life after Wimbledon. Staying with sport, women and extreme sport, I'm going to introduce you to the adventures of the downhill skateboarder known in the sector as Jenny Jungle. Cannot wait to meet her. Joan Rivers has long been considered a pioneer of women in comedy.

Now the comedian's collection of 65,000 typewritten jokes are going on display at a museum in New York. Her humour, the put-downs, they were unique. A few examples to remind you. I'm so old, the first time I had sex, it was in the back of a chariot. I wish I had a twin so I could know what I'd look like without plastic surgery. And when a man has a birthday, he takes a day off. When a woman has a birthday, she takes off at least three years.

We want to know who is the funniest woman you know and what is the most hilarious thing they've ever said, the best one-liner, the silliest story. Do let us know. You can, of course, get in touch on any of our stories. You can text us. That number is 84844. On social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour. You can always email us through our website

or you can send us a WhatsApp message or audio voice note through the number 03700 100 444. Terms and conditions, they can all be found over on our website. And period product company Bodyform posted a video on Facebook showing members of the public being quizzed on the meaning of terms relating to women's health as part of an anti-stigma campaign. Words such as clitoris, vulva, vagina. And that campaign has now been banned on the platform

with Facebook reportedly saying ads on its site must not promote sexual and reproductive health products or services. It is the latest in a long list of ads for products associated with feminine hygiene and the female body being banned by such platforms, local authorities or advertising standard authorities around the world. So our guests, they're going to help us understand what is going on. But first, Sue Barker was once ranked third in the world for women's tennis. She won 15 Women's Tennis Association singles titles and the French Open when she was just 20 years old. Then she turned her career to broadcasting, becoming the ever cheerful face of British sport on the BBC,

hosting events from the Olympics to racing. Perhaps what she's best known for, though, after her three decades is presenting Wimbledon. In her memoir, Calling the Shots, she also writes about presenting grandstands, sports personality of the year and a question of sport, of which she was quiz master for an amazing 24 years alongside team captains Matt Dawson and Phil Tufnell, or Dawes and Tuffers, as she calls them. I asked Sue which programme was her favourite. Well, Wimbledon's in my DNA, but if I had to choose one other, it's Question of Sport.

It was such a fun programme. My dad and I used to watch it when I was growing up. We were a competitive family. It was wonderful. And then when I got asked to be on it, it was great fun. And all the captains I've had, Ali McCoy, John Parrott, Frankie Dottori, and then Dawes and Tuffers, they've just been such fun. And it was such a lovely programme to do for so many years.

So I've been incredibly lucky looking back and in having two careers, I've absolutely adored, you know, some people don't even get to do one, you know, to have two has just been amazing. You talk about a question of sports, and you've openly talked about the fact that you feel like your departure from the programme could have been handled better. How would you have liked to have seen that play out? Well, we thought it, we knew years before that they wanted to refresh the programme. And you know, you can't, you can't go on forever. Everyone's, you know, got to step aside at some point. And we were fine with it. Absolutely fine. So they offered, they offered me an extra year to say, would I bring on two new captains? But I loved working with Doors and Tuffers and I felt real loyalty to them.

So I said, no, I'll leave with the boys. So this sort of dragged on for a couple of years and they kept renewing our contract. But then in the end, we said we were coming to the end of the series and we said, is this the time you're going to stop it? Will you let us know? So they came and had meetings with us the next day to tell us we were going. Dawes said to them, look, we really need to own this. Let's do a press release and sort it out so it's all done in some way. And we walked away and we recorded the last show and then we just never heard anything.

Then all of a sudden, the red tops, as we call them, the Sunday papers suddenly decided they had the story that we'd been sacked. So we got a panic phone call from the BBC suddenly saying, and this was two weeks later, oh, you know, it's going to break, the story's going to break, we need to bring out a press release. I thought, well, you know, two weeks too late. And when the press release came, it said that Sue, Matt and Phil have decided to walk away from A Question of Sport. And I thought, well, you know, two weeks too late. And when the press release came, it said that Sue, Matt and Phil have decided to walk away from A Question of Sport. And I said, no, that's not what happened. I said, look, I said, I don't mind leaving. You know, everyone has their time. But I said, just say you want to rebrand it, you want to refresh it, because we didn't want to let viewers think that we wanted to ever walk away from the programme. We loved it so much, you know. It made us feel really let down because we didn't want to walk away from the show that way. We wanted to celebrate and walk away from the show. So unless you're into a show, you're so...

Yeah, that was taken away from us, which was really sad, which is, I think, in some ways, why I wanted to do Wimbledon on my own terms because BBC Sport offered me a new contract. But I knew with age and with time and with everything that's happening around that over the next few years, I would probably get phased out slightly. And I didn't really want to do that either. You know, as I said, you know, Wimbledon is you climb up to the top of it. I wanted to do the top job forever. I still would love to have

another 30 years doing it. Trust me, I love it so much. And I love the people I work with in front of the camera and behind it. But I knew that was the time to go because it was right for me. Well, Sue, shall we start with that standing ovation? It was an emotional moment for viewers. I cannot imagine what it was like for you. It was an absolute shock. And I get quite emotional just hearing it again. I haven't heard it for so long. but it was the loveliest thing that's ever happened in my career and for Mac to do that because I

had a closing link all prepared and I was just about to go into it and he stopped me for him to say those lovely words and then the reaction of the crowd Oh you're tearing up! I know! It really really gets to me Surely that cannot come as a surprise to you because as you've said, Wimbledon's in your DNA.

Others have said you are Wimbledon. And in the book, you describe taking blades of grass that you stole from Centre Court the very first time you were there. So this has been a part of your fabric from the very beginning. I know. But, you know, you go in and you do the best job that you can. You don't realise, you know, because the crowd were there with other viewers. I know, but you go in and you do the best job that you can and you don't realise, because the crowd were there with other viewers and for them to do that, and I tried to stop them halfway through

and then they got even louder. It was just so lovely. But yeah, you're right. I mean, Wimbledon, I've loved it from a kid. Every time I hit the ball against the garage wall, I was always playing on centre court at Wimbledon, normally against Billie Jean King, winning in three sets normally.

Never happened in reality, sadly. But yeah, Wimbledon and going there with my school and playing. We played a few matches at Wimbledon because we won the school competition, even though there was only 160 pupils in our convent. We were the best in Britain. It was amazing. So to go to Wimbledon and steal those blades of grass. Have you still got those blades of grass? Yeah. How are they doing after all these years?

I didn't open it. See, I didn't realise. I just handed them to my dad. And I just forgot about them eventually. And then I was opening up all the scrapbooks he had kept, which I'd never read. And there they were, sellotaped into the scrapbook. And I said to my husband, I said, should I open it? And he goes, it might be a huge disappointment.

They might have just disintegrated. So I've just haven't, I've left them where they are. Well, can we talk about your dad, seeing as you've mentioned him and those scrapbooks, hugely entertaining in the book. But what really made me laugh is when, as you were growing in your career in those early days, you banned your father from coming to some of your games. I feel so bad about that now. But why would you ban your biggest fan? Because he used to touch when I missed a shot and

he'd help you. He was doing all these noises when it was getting close. And I said, stop it, stop it like that. And so I banned him. But then he used to go and hide behind getting close and I said stop it stop it like that and so I banned him but then he used to go and hide behind a tree and I could still hear him I said you're still you're in earshot I just did but they did come and watch me a bit eventually but as a junior I was so competitive and I was so desperate to win that anything that put me off slightly but then it got to a point where your parents didn't want to come because they themselves were so nervous so when they did eventually get an invite they they were like, we're not coming. But they never went to Wimbledon.

Not once. They didn't. They said they couldn't bear that. They couldn't stand that. But they did come and watch me play in the Whiteman Cup, which is another event at the Royal Albert Hall. So they did get to see me play on a big stage. So at least they did that. But no, they stayed very much in the background.

I was the youngest of three. And so, you know, it's think of as a case of not wanting to favour one over the other so they let us all just get on with what what careers we chose. Another huge mental figure in your life Arthur Roberts your coach your guru in many ways but again what I take away from your book he turned you from a Susan into a Sue and that sums up his character in many ways tell us more about it yes Susan apparently sounded too soft he wanted he didn't even like the s he wanted me to have a hard name because he coached Angela Mortimer and he loved Angela sounds you know sort of so he changed me to Sue but he was he was really tough he was a disciplinarian and he

expected nothing but the best he had all sorts of rules like first rally that you have when you walk on court, if you hit less than 20 over the net, then you have to go home. If you're not concentrating right from the very first minute, he said that's not good enough. And, you know, I'd taken three buses to get over there in an hour, you know, and then it was... I'm not going home. I was sent home a few times. I had to get three buses back again. But he also gave me the biggest lessons in life because I was quite a shy girl when I was young. And he really brought out the more competitive side of me and made me want to achieve things and want to challenge myself. I never would have dreamed of going out and playing in front of thousands of people all around, you know, Centre Court, Madison Square Garden, all these places where we played in front of thousands of people. But he just made me want to do it and to also,

in some ways, go into broadcasting to not be afraid to fail, you know, challenge yourself, have a go. If it doesn't work out, come away, move on, laugh about it. Because he stayed with you throughout your career from tennis to broadcasting. Yeah, he was the most wonderful man and I only paid him one pound for my very first lesson. And then he said

he would fund my career because he knew my parents couldn't really afford it. And I used to play there every day, sometimes for hours on indoor tennis courts in Torbay. And I wouldn't have been able to afford that. One of the things you talk about early on in your tennis career is the establishment of Billie Jean King of the Women's Tennis Association. So the women's game would be seen in a more equal light to men's. Do you think much has improved?

Oh, yes. Oh, massively. I mean, it was such a privilege to be around at that time and to see Billie Jean King in full flow. She took so many risks. And I know, because having asked her, in some ways ruined her career. She would have won many more Grand Slam titles if she hadn't been so driven to make changes. Yes, she admits it. She says it herself, I would have won many more Grand Slam titles if she hadn't been so driven to make

changes. Yeah, she admits it. She says it herself, I would have won many, many more. So by speaking out? Yeah. And by, you know, going and challenging people to make a difference. And she was doing it during tournaments, you know, so she wasn't concentrating on just playing tennis. She was, you know, going and talking to people and trying to make change, not just as far as equality for women, but everything racial. I mean, she is just the most inspirational person I've ever met. And I'm proud to call her a friend, but also still a mentor. Very much last year, when I was leaving the BBC, she was, you know, we talked so much about it and all the things to, she's such a wise person and she's made so many changes.

But what she did making all those sacrifices back in the 70s, it wasn't a quick fix. A lot of people say, oh, well, she won the Battle of the Sexes and then women's tennis took off. It didn't. She started it in 1970. 1973 was the Battle of the Sexes against Bobby Riggs, which she won, which did change the whole conception of women's sport. But it wasn't really until 75 that women's tennis was, we were playing in little country clubs in the early 70s. By 1975, we were filling out Madison Square Garden. I mean, we, you know, we had Chrissy and Martina and Yvonne

Goulagong and Billy and Margaret Court and Virginia Wade. I mean, it was just such a wonderful era for women's tennis. And the public wanted it, you know. But it took her years and years to do that. And then, you know, equal prize money didn't come until many, many years later. But she's still fighting. You know, she's getting older, but trust me, she's still there. And I wonder what you and her might make of the controversy around the French Open at the moment with the director Amelie Maresmo, a former Wimbledon champion herself, being criticised for scheduling mainly the men's matches for the evening where there's a bigger audience. And she has apologised for saying that the men's game had more attraction.

But I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that situation. Yeah, well, we look at it at Wimbledon as well. And I'm thrilled that now Wimbledon on Centre Court have three matches and they have on one day two men's, one women's, and then two women's, one men's. So, you know, and they add on. I mean, it's a slight dilemma for a tournament director with the men's game being best of five sets

and the women's being best of three. Because if you do schedule a match for the night session and it only lasts an hour, because some of the women's being best of three because if you do schedule a match for the night session and it only lasts an hour because some of the women's matches last an hour then you know the public isn't going to like it so it's a very difficult tricky sort of situation for Amelie to be in and sadly now with Serena having gone you know that there aren't the big names in the women's game at the moment they've got to build up what we need, really need. And Billy and I talk about this all the time is we need a few really good players to be in the slam finals for a few years and build up that rivalry that we've seen with Roger and Rafa and Novak and Andy to have that because people don't really know who

these players are. Rebecca, who won last year at Wimbledon, I don't think you would know her if she walked down the street, whereas now she's, you know, beginning to get through to more finals. And that's what we need is to have more established players in the same fame as Maria Sharapova and Serena and Venus. That's lacking at the moment. So I sort of have sympathy for Amelie and I understand it. But at the end of the day, we want equality across all the tournaments. You know, that's what we've been fighting for and that's what we really need. But the players also have to provide it.

We talked about the French Open, a tournament that is very close to your heart. Oh, I mean, it was so magical because that was always what I dreamed of. Sadly, I dreamed of winning Wimbledon as my Grand Slam, but it didn't happen. But to win any of the Grand Slams was that was always the target. And that too at the tender age of 20. 20, I know I'd have just turned 20. So I didn't think I really embraced it and accepted it enough in some ways, because I guess at the time I was my career was so much on the up I

thought this is going to be the first of many if I'd known it was going to be my only one I would have kept on going up just in a slightly different direction yes exactly well it was Chrissie Everett and Martina Navarro-Solova they kept stopping me it wasn't fair you know I've had so many great battles but I love that you could laugh about this looking back. At the time, I'm sure it was emotionally wrenching. Oh, it was unbelievable. It was everything I'd dreamed of. And what I felt really bad is that I didn't rush off and phone my coach because I was so overwhelmed. And he, because he hadn't heard from me, he thought I'd lost. So we went out. So by the time I phoned him, he'd gone out and I said to his wife, I said, look, can't you tell him that we didn't have mobile phones then or anything.

So we had to wait until he came. He went for a long walk thinking I'd lost it. So it was, but no, it was, it was, it was fabulous. And it just means the world to me. Yeah. And you've had two careers, this broadcast. And you still have, who knows another chapter of Superarch coming up? Who knows?

I don't think so. But tennis and broadcasting and your entry into broadcasting came about through a man called Gordon Bennett. I know. Of all people. Who would have thought? Tell our listeners that story.

It's so bizarre because I hadn't told any, I was thinking of retiring. My body was breaking down. I had really bad shin splints and Achilles tendon problems. So I knew my time was coming up and I was playing the Australian Open

and I just made the decision I'm going to quit now because I knew I couldn't go and play on the indoor courts in America. My body wouldn't take it. So I thought, right, I'll quit. I didn't want anyone to know, you know, that's I just didn't want to announce it. So I lost my match at the Australian Open, went into the press conference said that's it I'm done you know after 15, 16 years I'm done and it was all such a shock and I went back to my hotel and there were so many messages from everyone

can we get an interview with you can you do this and there were like 25 messages and I was going no no no oh one from my mum better phone her one from my coach oh better phone him.

And then I saw this and then I saw this, call me Gordon Bennett. Call me Gordon Bennett. I thought, I said, that's one of my friends because I have a lot of practical jokers that I know. I thought, I wonder which one of my friends is saying, Gordon Bennett, you've retired like that. So I'm going to, so I thought, I'm going to phone that first because it's so intrigued me. So I dialed the number and I go Gordon Bennett and this woman suddenly said oh do you want to be put through to him I'm like oh my word it's someone called Gordon Bennett and I said okay okay now I had no idea who he was and he said hello so I'm the boss of channel seven and I want to offer you a job would you come back and work on the Australian tour?

And so I spent eight weeks every winter and it was wonderful because they really taught me so much. I was there as a sort of a pundit so I wasn't having all the talk back and everything but it made me really fall in love with it and really want to do more. So when I came back to the UK, I went to the BBC because they were doing Wimbledon

and everything. And I said, look, I've been doing Channel 7. I said, can I come and work for you at Wimbledon? And they went, no, you know, we've already got Virginia Wade and Ann Jones. And with all due respect to they've won Wimbledon and you haven't. So I had to walk away and think, well, you know, can't get in that way. What else can I do? And then I met a lovely, another Aussie man who I'd met down in Australia called David Hill who came to run Sky. And he was one that was breaking all the rules because he suddenly said not only did he want a woman presenting sport, but he wanted an ex-sports person to present their sport. He'd done it in Australia with the cricket and now he wanted to do it over at Sky.

So I was coming in to be the presenter of the tennis. It didn't go down well with a lot of other people within the office and it was a few tricky times and a few people. And expand on that because you faced your fair share of let's put it straight sexism as well. Well it was because they thought why would you want to do this you know you're not trained you haven't come through you know because I hadn't come through the normal ranks of working either in a local paper or local radio or and then coming through that way. And I said, but hold on a minute. I said, you know, I probably know more about the sport than anybody. So I said, it's all swings and roundabouts here. You know, OK, I may not have that sort of but but I'm bringing other things to the table. So I don't see why not. And he put me with a lovely lady producer and lady production assistant, Alison and Nicola. And we were called

Bananarama in the office, which I thought was a huge compliment. They actually thought it was quite derogatory. I thought it was, I was a big fan of them. So I thought that's really nice. It could have been far worse. But there were many times when the big events came up and I was sort of pushed aside and not allowed to. But eventually the BBC came knocking about four years later. And I joined with Des Lynham and Harry Carpenter, two of the legends of broadcasting, who were the most welcoming, most generous people with their time and help.

So from a tremendously busy and fruitful career, you are now spending more time with your husband, Lance. Yes, indeed. How are you passing time? We've been travelling a lot. Oh, have you? Yes, we've been travelling a lot. We're doing a lot more. It's just fun, just not having like normally at this time

of the year, I would be deep in books of writing all this stuff. I'd be watching every tournament and making notes and doing this. I used to do it for months before Wimbledon. Because Wimbledon, even Des Lynham said, is the toughest event he ever covered in sports broadcasting. Because there's 128 players, men and women and

you're going from court to court to court and you've got to come up with something about every player so it's a really tricky thing to do so now I can just sit with my feet up watching the tennis I don't even have to listen to what the commentators are saying or what the scores are I can just enjoy it as a fan so I'm looking forward to doing that. A joy there to speak to Sue Barker about her autobiography, Calling the Shots. It's out now.

And just to say, we did approach the BBC over the issue of Sue's departure from a question of sport, but they declined to comment. And as for Funniest Women, as I asked you to send in earlier in the programme, many of you have been getting in touch. Thank as for funniest women, as I asked you to send in earlier in the programme,

many of you have been getting in touch. Thank you for your messages. This from Gary in Eastbourne, who says, hi there, love the show. Thank you, Gary. Ari, regarding funny women, when my daughter was about seven years old, I told her off. To say sorry, she made me a lovely card with hearts and flowers, but misspelt it a tiny bit she said dear daddy you are the most wonderful farter in the whole world thank you gary for that and this one from penny penny says i can be quite funny at work a junior colleague asked i think trying to be clear about my marital status but a bit critically and abruptly so how many husbands have you had penny and my reply was, my own

or other people's. Please keep sending your messages in. Many of you have done that already, and I will try and share them throughout the programme. But next, Facebook has removed an advert for a sanitary towel product because it referenced the words vagina, vulva and clitoris. The ad begins by saying, vagina is one of the most censored words on social media. That's why we're on a mission to reclaim all of those words that you just can't say. The company Bodyform claimed it was sent an automated notification by Facebook that read ads must not promote the sale or use of adult products or services and we have approached Facebook for a response. It is the latest in a long line of period ads that have caused a stir.

In Ireland, a Tampax ad showing how to use a tampon was banned. And a television advert featuring a bloody sanitary towel was the most complained about advert of 2022, receiving over 800 complaints. So what is and isn't appropriate when it comes to period adverts? To discuss, I am joined by Chela Quint, the founder of Period Positive, which aims to transform the way we as a society address periods. She is also a teacher and author. And Alice Enders also joins me. Alice is Director of Research at Enders Analysis, which follows TV and advertising trends. Good to have you both with us. Good morning. Good morning. Chela, let me start with you. Are you surprised to hear that an advert,

including words like vagina, vulva, clitoris, has been taken down by social media platforms? Well, I'm in two minds about this. We know that social media has arbitrary rules around what is safe and what isn't. But I had thought that we were learning about this and growing more. I think that the advertising campaigns are now doing what we want. We're sort of saying to be more proactive,

be more inclusive, don't use language of shame and stigma and secrecy. And that's starting to happen. But the companies that sort of are the portals for us to receive this information, you know, like TV, Facebook, other forms of social media, they haven't kept up. There's what I'm starting to call institutional menstrual shame. At the organizational level, people don't know what they're doing yet. And they aren't exploring how they could do it better. So advertisers are trying, social media platforms are not quite there yet.

I'd like to get Alice's response to that. Alice, are you with us? Well, we'll try and reconnect with Alice as soon as we can. But Chella, let me go back to you. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, sorry, I had it on mute. I just want to point out

there's a big difference between TV and social media. In the UK, all ads are vetted before they appear on TV. On social media, they use filters. It's a platform. There are thousands, hundreds of thousands of ads that are uploaded every day. And the default is to have a filter that just says, if there's this word, that word, and so on, it's an adult sex product. And that can't be served on Facebook,

because of course, Facebook's point of entry is 13-year-olds. So I think the issue is, as you said, a longstanding one. There is a way to, for example, appeal the ad rejection. But to have adult sex products, inter alia, marketed to people that are not adults. So it's in essence a child protection thing. But at the same time, I think what Cello says is quite right in the sense that, you know, there's an automaticity in the filters because again, you know, there's no no way meta can actually vet each one of the ads that's being served on the platform so the default is to be safe and to just turn it off but you know the fact is there is a process uh digital media agencies are often involved in this to request that the ad be served because it isn't an adult sex product. But Alice, is that default good enough? This idea of a generic blanket ban against such terms? And I totally understand the concern about child protection, but this as a default position, how do platforms work around this?

They use filters. And I mean, they use lots of filters. You know, for example, knives can't be marketed on Facebook either. So it's not just, you know, female products and so on. Menopause, that's another category where there are often bands that relate to the ads because they use the word vagina. But I think the point is that these are platforms, they serve hundreds of millions of people and thousands and thousands of advertisers, a lot of this is super automated. YouTube is the same. It's the concept of platform. If you're a publisher, like a newspaper, like a magazine, like a TV broadcaster, you can curate,

you can choose what's on your media channel. If you're a platform, you need to use automated processes. I don't think it's about, I don't think Meta's policy relates to any form of censorship around the notion of women's health. After all, many women use Facebook. But it has to do with the fact that they don't want to be seen as being a bad citizen in a society where we know that children should be protected from online harms. But many women will see this as censorship.

Chella, you've been keeping an eye on the evolution of period adverts, for example, over the past few years. How far have we come? I think it's a big change. Six years ago, adverts were still using blue liquid. Now, they're trying to get people to say vagina and vulva and clitoris, even pointing out the difference between vagina and vulva. That's something that, you know, we've been trying to encourage schools to make clearer to young people for years. Like Period Positive is working on a curriculum around menstrual literacy, though.

And I think the issue is, you know, companies like Meta have algorithms and filters, but there are people that program those, and those people don't have good enough menstrual literacy. The AI that might be used to manage some of this can be taught menstrual literacy, media literacy to notice the difference between red liquid and blue liquid and know, you know, the body literacy of what that means. And also, you know, just a corporate culture. Like sometimes I advise companies on how to make their corporate culture more period friendly and more menstrually literate, because that means all of their staff, whether they menstruate or not, can make decisions that benefit or, you know, when a company or an algorithm or an individual programming that filter doesn't make the difference. It's not even really a nuanced difference between the

safety and, you know, importance of a young person understanding what periods are, how their bodies work before puberty and beyond. So I would say, you know, let's catch up, but I'm happy to do the work. And there are plenty of other people here who will as well. It's media literacy that solves this problem. But adverts have noticed that this is what we want. We've, you know, we've complained, we've protested, we've used, you know, funny art projects. And, you know, I used to do a fanzine about it before I brought it into schools. It's really crucial that we take individual and corporate responsibility for this you know everybody had a room that was a womb i always say we all used to live inside a uterus so whatever

your gender whether you're not whatever your role your yeah your first flat was like you know it's designed in millennial pink beautiful you might have had succulent plants you might have had a poster from athena doesn't matter how old you are now but every single person in the world came from a uterus so we all have the right to understand how they work and the responsibility to, you know, to know how that impacts people. On that individual versus corporate responsibility, Alice, advertisers themselves, have you seen a change, for example, in the language being used in women's products in particular? Well, I think it's one of the most amazing things that has happened in the last decade,

I would say in the last decade, because I wouldn't say two decades. But what I've seen a lot, and I've really sort of embraced this myself is not so much, you know, it's the issue of the menopause. You know, I think as women have become empowered and have joined the workforce, their concerns have actually been demystified. You know, many women, obviously most women go through the menopause at a certain time and products that are directed at alleviating the symptoms, herbal remedies, for example, are now being routinely advertised. And obviously magazines are big, women's magazines are a big outlet for that kind of advertising,

but there's also TV. And I think that's incredibly positive in terms of highlighting the issue. This is a common issue. There are many men that don't understand that the menopause, for example, can affect a woman's mood and their ups and downs. There's hot flashes and things like that. And so this has actually been elevated into a workplace issue here in the UK now in a way that I think is super positive for women. Because after all, we have an incredibly high level of females participating in the workforce here.

But just on that, Alex, many men are trying to better understand the situation or don't. But are they the ones pushing out these adverts? I'm just wondering, advertising, a male-dominated industry? Not really. Advertising is not male-dominated. It's actually female-dominated. If you look in your average advertising agency, 80% of the employees will be women. You know, let's face it, women buy a lot of products. They're the household, you know, they're kind of the, you know, the manager of the household.

And that's one of the reasons why we see that. Of course, also, there's all the, you know, beauty products. It's a huge industry. There's no question that women understand women in terms of messaging and also, you know, to be honest, branding, the look of the product, the color of the product, and then also ancillary values. Is it a climate-friendly product? Does it have a carbon-neutral profile? These are the sorts of issues that many women care about. So I would resist thinking that advertising is male-. But the fact is, is that these messages for many years have been part of,, but also in terms of sharing really important information about new products, about women's health. Many women, as you know, become more vulnerable to health issues that are specific to women at that age, cervical cancer, breast cancer, this kind of thing. So I'm very hopeful about enlarging and normalising this dialogue around women and their specific body.

Thank you, Alison. Just before I let both you and Cella go, I do want to read you some of the messages that we've had on this. How about we protect children from inappropriate ads on social media by not allowing children on social media? Clearly, it's a dangerous place. Another here asks, if AI tools like chat GPT can churn out essays on any topic under the sun, why can't similar AI tools be used by social platforms to red flag posts of an unsanitary nature, pun intended,

and green light posts on feminine hygiene issues that may be a conversation we have in the future thank you for that message and this one menstrual literacy doesn't need to be taught via adverts on social media the terms of intimate body parts do not need to be mentioned just as ads for toilet paper do not need to mention or show body parts or show the colours of human excretions involved. Teach at home, in schools, etc. Being discreet about intimate bodily functions does not mean you're shaming the people having those functions. Now, this debate clearly continues.

Thank you for all of your messages. And thank you to Chela Quint, founder of Period Positive, and Alice Enders, director of research at Enders Analysis. I should say many of you have also been getting in touch about the funniest women in your lives. This one on email says, when I told my daughter Elsa, age five, to wake up because the early bird gets the worm,

she replied, but the late worm stays alive and went back to sleep. Many of you have been saying that Victoria Wood, an utter genius, is your favourite comedian. And this one from Amanda in Exeter. My 17-year-old daughter, Katie, is one of the funniest women I know. She's quick to respond to things on the TV or radio with very dry, pithy one-liners. Golden.

Thank you, Amanda. And thank you to all of you for sending in your messages. Do keep them coming in on the handle at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter, on Instagram and via text and WhatsApp as well. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. On Wednesday, we brought you the news that the Japanese parliament is debating a landmark bill to reform the country's sexual assault laws. Under scrutiny is the country's redefinition of rape and whether to raise the legal age of consent from 13 to 16. However, a form of sexual assault in Japan, so prevalent that it has its own name has been omitted from that agenda and we want to tell you all about it here on Women's Hour. The term chican refers to the act of women being groped in public by sexual predators, often on subway trains.

And in some cases, these attacks are being filmed and then sold online. The BBC World Services investigative unit BBC Eye has gone undercover over the past year to unmask the men who are cashing in on sexual violence. And I'm joined by BBC reporter Xiaoying Feng, who has been a part of that investigation. Good to meet you. You are normally based in Washington and it's good to have you in the studio here with us here in London. Thanks for coming in. Thank you. Good to be with you.

Let us start with you just defining a bit more what chican actually is. I touched on it there, but it's quite a broad term. Indeed. So it refers to the act of groping women in public, usually on public transport. It also refers to the offenders themselves. But it's not just groping. It's other things as well. Yeah. So going back to the websites you just mentioned that we have been investigating for the past year, it features a lot of videos of groping, but also more serious sexual assault. For example, some of the videos follow this pattern. A man secretly films his

female target from behind and follows her onto a crowded train. And seconds later, he takes out his genitals and rubs it against the women. Some men even ejaculate on their victims' dress or hair. This is a horrific business cashing in in this kind of sexual violence in public. And these are horrific details, but important to share just to highlight how serious this situation is. And you've been speaking to survivors of this kind of assault. Indeed. So we talked to survivors of this kind of assault in Japan and also in China. And they told us that this kind of attack happens quite often. We talked to a young woman called Takako from Japan.

When she was first sexually assaulted on the train, she was only 15 year old. And this kind of assault happened to her almost every day on the train for a year. That's incredible. Every day? Yes, on her daily commute to her school. And she's not the only woman who told us so. We spoke to many women from Japan, and they share with us their personal stories. And some of them also told us that they're regularly sexually assaulted on crowded trains. Okay, so the obvious question is, what is being done about this? Yeah, so in Japan, you just mentioned that they're debating a landmark build to redefine sexual assault. And likely they will have their first laws

banning upskirting. However, chikan, as the act of groping on public transport, is not included in this bill. So currently, chikan is a crime in Japan. However, it's only regulated by local regulations, local laws. There's no national law in Japan punishing this act. And why is that? Is it because it's normalized? Indeed, yeah. And even when we talk to women who have been survivors of this act, they would be telling us, oh, it's so trivial. I don't even want to say that to other people. It's so normalized in this society. And a part of that reason is because chikan has been a big genre in Japan's adult entertainment industry.

The product, the services related to chikan are everywhere in this country. Chikan, in fact, is one of the most popular types of porn in Japan. It's incredible. Yes, and this kind of porn has been exported to other parts of Asia as well. So if a woman has experienced this and she wants to speak out, she wants to take legal action, is there a process? Is she ever taken seriously? Yeah, so first of all, it's really difficult for women to speak out during the act.

A very common statement of victim blaming is that, oh, why didn't you scream? Why didn't you speak out? Why didn't you catch the guy? But a lot of women who have this personal experience would tell you, at that moment, their mind is blank. They're frozen. And out of shocked fear or shame, they couldn't speak out during the act. And even when they do speak out and catch the perpetrator,

and in many stories that we heard from survivors, the bystanders in the trains did not help them. They were on their own. And even if they caught the perpetrator to the police, currently in Japan, they are only punished very likely. Usually offenders can pay small fines and walk free or receive a suspended sentence. Very few of them actually go to jail.

And thousands of arrests are made every year in Japan for chican offenses however many more go undetected and unpunished you and your team have been trying to uncover the people the men behind these extremely large websites extensive websites and you tracked one of them down and that's's shared in the documentary. And it was a difficult experience, wasn't it? Yeah, so in our documentary, Catching a Pervert, which you can watch on iPlayer right now, we managed to track down the main mastermind behind this website selling sexual violence videos.

And he turns out to be a 27-year-old Chinese man living in Tokyo. He looked like a college student. However, he has been running this horrific business and making huge profits from it. He told us, he told our undercover journalist that he makes more than £500 every day from these websites. And when you approached him, you were met with a great deal of anger. No surprise, obviously. Indeed. So we located his address in Tokyo and put out allegations to him. Yeah.

When I asked the questions, I felt like I was asking these questions on behalf of the woman we spoke to during our reporting and also many other women who have been sexually assaulted in public. However, this guy, his name is Tang Zhuo Ran, nicknamed Mao Mi, the mastermind behind the websites. He didn't answer any of my questions. His only response was silence and then violence. He attacked our camera and the crew. Extraordinary. One thing I also want to share, which has stayed with me from your documentary, that there is, as you said, an adult entertainment industry around this. But you also went to one of these clubs where essentially they mimic the environment of a train carriage so that men can have a chican experience. Yeah. So we went to Yokohama's red light district. And there's a club called Rush

Hour. You can't make this up. Rush Hour is a sex club of chican film. It decorates like a trained carriage. So in private rooms that look exactly like a train carriage, customers can pay to legally grope women for as little as £20. Extraordinary story. If you'd like to see that full documentary, Catching a Pervert, it's available over on BBC iPlayer. But for now, BBC reporter Xiaoying Feng, thank you for sharing your insights with us here on Women's Hour.

Right, next we are going to talk about a new hobby, or rather skateboarding. With summer vibes currently in the air, many of you might be getting the bikes out, enjoying riding on gentle slopes with the wind in your hair. But how about hurtling down a twisting mountain road at 80 miles per hour, balancing on a skateboard? That is the favourite hobby of my next guest, Jenny Charité, better known as Jenny Jungle.

She and a group of other female skateboarders who call themselves Wolf Women are featured in a new documentary about a trip to Turkey to try out a high-altitude run that's never been skated before. And the film is Wolf Women Now or Never, and Jenny is here in our studio. Good to have you here.

Hi, good to have you. Thank you. Right, talk us through, first to have you. Thank you. Right, talk us through, first of all, downhill skateboarding. Not just ordinary skateboarding, is it? Yes, it's like speed skateboarding. Yeah. And we skate on tarmac, on the road, mountain passes. And how did you get into it? Actually, I wrote my master thesis about adrenaline and how it can influence our emotions in London. And I did a lot of research and I found that sport as an example sport. And I really got into it. And that was the very beginning of what's become an extraordinary journey for you.

Definitely, yes. I've watched you go round those corners at an incredible speed Wind in your face, but how fast do you actually go? I would say my record is definitely up to 100 kilometres an hour And what's that feeling like? Wow, it's... you really have to focus So you don't have time to think about many other things really So the adrenaline just takes over, like you were saying. Definitely, yeah.

And then the control you have to have is extraordinary, going around those corners. Yeah, definitely. How do you control yourself? How do I control myself? Well, you do need a lot of practice. You push your board sideways to slide and to slow down or to stop. And you have to be really physical.

You need a lot of exercise. It's not easy. No, because it looks like you're just coasting down these hills and mountains. But you must have to have a lot of physical strength to control that board. Yeah, you definitely do. It requires a lot of practice and training. Yeah. And in terms of the equipment, I'm just trying to get around the logistics here before we dig a bit further. But it's not an ordinary skateboard, I'm sure.

I mean, you must have to have specific specialist wheels or other parts to get around those bends. Yeah, the board is more stiff than a normal street skateboard. We have different trucks. We call them precision trucks because you have to really be precise in where you're going. And we also use different wheels. For racing, for example, we have really big, grippy wheels that brings you fast around the corner and that makes you go faster. So technically very specific.

Tell me how many women take up this sport? I think at the moment we're 6% of the women. That's not much. That's not very much. Why is that in your opinion? Wow, that's a hard question. I think it requires a lot of gut and a lot of, have to yeah i don't know it's it's as a woman it's really hard because there's a lot of men watching first of all so it's like kind of intimidating

when you're skating and there's like a lot of guys around um and i don't know we've been taught a long time in our lives that we can't you know and there's a lot of things we we're not you know we're not good at or we're told to that this is not a thing that women do and in this case um you have to overcome that yeah that shame or that inner voice that tells you don't do that it's dangerous and i think women have that intuition you call it in the documentary definitely yeah but that word gut that we don't have as much of it as men is that what you're suggesting um or we just use it in a different way I guess we use it in a different way I think the women have very complex inner world and

emotional world and over attempt to overthink things I believe that we also have you know we have a womb we have to protect something more I think men are more risky in their choices and that yeah but ultimately it is dangerous and we see in the documentary that you have a serious accident. Even if you listen to your gut, this is a dangerous sport. Yeah, it really is. You can get hurt, so you need a lot of practice. You need to be patient with yourself as well and you can get hurt. Tell us what happened with that injury um well i broke my femur that's biggest bone in your body yeah and this was as you were training to to go to turkey yes we were training um in the open roads and we use walkie- talkies for a better system, like a safer skating.

But there was some rocks on the road and some bumps and I slid off and I hit a guardrail with my leg. And your recovery was extensive. We can see the agonizing pain that you go through in that documentary. But what is also extraordinary is whilst you're recovering you're also contemplating returning to Turkey and you do that within three months. That is your first skate back. Yeah, actually we planned a lot this film. We had many months of preparation

and it was hard to get all my wolf women, the girls that are in my film, together in one place to do this. And this accident happened while we were doing all these plannings. So I tried my best to recover as fast as I can and to do the trip anyways. And I had a real good support of those girls. But even putting that aside, I mean, what is it that, there's a there's a segment in that documentary where alejandra one of the wolf women says that people have quit the sport for much less did that ever cross your mind that you want to give this up um not really no and why is that it was it the adrenaline i mean is you know you've got a

thesis in the the the pros and cons of adrenaline. I mean, was that the kind of central thing, that it was just too addictive? I guess it's also a mental thing in some way, because in a way skateboarding has taken me out of a depression and really dark places. I also had eating disorders and all these things you can't really think of or you can't really have those in your life while you're trying to skate and be really physical. So, yeah, I would definitely say it sorts you out in another way. And imagining my life without that sport, it's very sad. It's dark.

So it took you out of a dark place yeah yeah yeah yeah i want to know whether you've ever raced with men many times and what's that really like and how does it differ to racing with women um actually i'm i'm pretty tall and heavy so sometimes i'm on a similar level as some guys and it's really fun because you can push yourself even more you can go even faster you can you want to chase each other so it's like a game but also I experienced a lot of um maybe jealousy or if I managed to you know if I managed to go faster than a guy he would they really get you know angry and jealous somehow and start getting kind of violent. I've seen many, many things happening like that.

And I want to know, Jenny, whether, I mean, you've come to this later in life, but young girls, would you encourage them to take this up? I definitely would. It's very healing as well. It's amazing. You spend a lot of time outside in the nature, you travel, you get to see places. And I think everyone should be able to do that, you know, especially young girls at my age or younger. also known as Jenny Jungle on her new film Wolf Women Now or Never on the experience of her extraordinary skateboarding journey in Turkey. Thank you so much for coming into our studio.

Thank you for having me. Thank you to the many of you who have been sending in your various messages on so many of the conversations that we have been having on the subject of advertising and the female body and what we can and cannot say we've had this message that says as a mother of two girls 11 and 5 we only use the correct words for their genitalia vagina should be used with vulva labia and clitoris these are not dirty words they should be celebrated and normalized as your guest says and this one at the present time tv advertisements particularly for women's products but especially for incontinence products, are absolutely overwhelming.

It tends to imply that the majority of women are constantly wetting themselves. It's derogatory, says this message from Christina. Thank you, Christina. And also on the story of Chikan in Japan, that is sexual assault on public transport. Thank you for your message on this, who writes, listening to your item about gropings on public transport in Japan, as a child at secondary school in England, I experienced this a couple of times on transport and in the street. But as a university student traveling mainly in Italy on Interrail in the 1980s, I would say it has happened to me and my companion approximately 10 times so good to hear

personal experiences as well and this one nothing new here i'm 64 years old and along with many of my peers was often sexually assaulted on the hugely overcrowded carriages of the london underground trains in the 1980s thank you for sharing your personal experiences on a problem that continues to impact women and girls across the world and thank you to all of you for sharing your personal experiences on a problem that continues to impact women and girls across the world. And thank you to all of you for spending some of your morning with us. Do join me again tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour, where we'll have music and chat from the four-time Grammy Award nominated singer Candy Staten. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm India Axon and I just want to quickly talk to you about witches.

In this series from BBC Radio 4, simply titled Witch, I'm going to explore the meaning of the word today. It is a twisting, turning rabbit warren of a world, full of forgotten connections to land and to power, lost graves stolen words and indelible marks on the world because the story of the witch is actually the story of us all come and find out why on which with me india rackerson subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.