Woman's Hour - Summer hair trends; Police & sexual misconduct - Woman's Hour/Newsnight reveal 1,400 accused

Episode Date: June 15, 2021

Summer’s here and despite the restrictions still in place on social gathering we’re still managing to meet up with friends and enjoy the odd night out. One aspect of that is of course looking your best and a big part of that is your hair, which has had to take a backseat in terms of grooming and maintenance over the last eighteen months of lockdowns. But, we are returning to salons and apparently trying lots of new and old styles, as well as getting more creative with colour. Hair stylist Nicky Clarke gives Emma Barnett a summer make over and Camilla Kay from Glamour Magazine points out the trends including seventies flicks and “big hair” and the “Shullet” – the modern take on the mullet.Most of us would think of the police as a safe place to turn to in a time of need. But it's a belief that has been seriously questioned by a couple of incidents over the past year. In a joint investigation with Newsnight we asked police forces in the UK, how many police had been accused of sexual misconduct. Of course most police officers do their jobs with integrity and honesty but campaigners say some of the results were worrying. Our reporter Melanie Abbott has been looking at this.Shamima Begum, Kimberly Polman and Hoda Muthana are just a few of the names who made headline news around the world after leaving their homes in the West to join the so called Islamic State. With rare access to the detention camp in Northern Syria, Alba Sotorra Clua's new film 'The Return: Life After ISIS' features some of the women who devoted their lives to the group and who feel they should be given the chance to start over, back home in the West.MP Jess Phillips is calling for there to be less shame around HPV – a sexually transmitted infection that she had in her twenties. Most sexually active people will contract HPV but won’t know they have it. For 90% of people it clears up but for others it can be serious. Jess Phillips found out she had HPV when she was 22 and pregnant and is talking about this to raise awareness for Cervical Cancer Screening Awareness week. Dr Sarah Jarvis also joins Emma.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Harriet Wistrich Interviewed Guest: Nicky Clarke Interviewed Guest: Camilla Kay Photographer: Daniel Thomas Smith from Glamour Interviewed Guest: Alba Sotorra Clua Interviewed Guest: Jess Phillips Interviewed Guest: Dr Sarah Jarvis

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Today we bring you a Woman's Hour and BBC Newsnight joint investigation into the police and sexual misconduct. A Freedom of Information request by our programmes has found there are nearly 1,500 allegations of sexual misconduct by police officers, with 204 cases seeing some form of disciplinary action. More detail on that to come shortly. But our request has been placed at a time when discussions about how much women trust the police are high on the agenda.

Let us know your response to our investigation and, of course, your experiences, if you feel you can, and you don't have to give your real name. You can text us here at Women's Hour on 84844. I'm waiting to hear from you. Or on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour, or choose to email us through our website. That definitely remains an option that many of you take us up on every single day. And thank you for that.

Also on today's programme, hair. Lots of it. Apparently the 70s are back. Flicks, the mullet, the shag, fluffed out afros. And trendspotters say it's because we're in desperate need of some optimism. You feeling it? Also, I'll be joined by the Labour MP Jess Phillips on why she's admitting something personal from her 20s in a bid to fight shame and help women. But most of us would think of the police as a safe place to turn to in a time of need. But it's a belief that has been seriously questioned, in particular by a couple of incidents over the past year. The most worrying is the case of Sarah Everard,

the woman who went missing near Clapham Common in London. Police Constable Wayne Cousins last week pleaded guilty to her rape and kidnap and accepted responsibility for killing her, but didn't enter a plea as medical reports were being prepared. Last year, there was shock to hear that two police officers allegedly circulated photos to a WhatsApp group, photos of two women's bodies that they'd been sent to guard. Sisters Nicole Smallman and Bieber Henry

were found dead in a country park in northwest London. The officers have been charged with misconduct in public office, but haven't yet entered a plea. Both of these cases are ongoing, so we're not going to be discussing those today. However, both have raised questions for many people about whether there's a bigger problem within our police forces. Woman's Hour has carried out its own investigation. Jointly with BBC Newsnight, we asked police forces in the UK how many police had been accused of sexual misconduct. Of course, most police officers do their job with integrity and honesty, but campaigners say some of our results are worrying.

Our reporter, Melanie Abbott, has been looking at this. We sent Freedom of Information requests to all 46 police forces in the UK. 32 of them replied. The others either didn't make the deadline or told us that it was too costly to provide these statistics. Now, the data we got suggests there have been just under 1,500 allegations of sexual misconduct against police officers in the last five years.

Now, there are just over 86,000 officers working in the forces that sent us this data. So that is a relatively small number. From these allegations, 204 cases saw some form of disciplinary action taken against them. 7% were dismissed. Another 7% were reprimanded. The data shows that 3% of the allegations, that's 52 cases, ended up in court. Now, just by way of context, and this isn't a direct comparison, because sexual misconduct allegations may not be actual sexual offences, but the prosecution rate for sexual offences in England and Wales, in the general population, is 3.2%.

Bear in mind, though, that this data isn't from all of the forces. Some of them, as I said, just didn't provide information. Campaigners do say, then, that it is worrying to find that over the last five years, there has been, as I said, almost 1,500 police officers accused of some kind of sexual misconduct. Now we have also been doing our own separate investigations from Newsnight and an FOI request was made with the Bureau of Investigative Journalism which asked about the last three years and that request has revealed some of the detail of the kind of allegations that have been made against officers. And what are we talking about when we say sexual misconduct?

Yeah, our Freedom of Information request with the Bureau has shown that it is a whole range of things, including extramarital affairs, having sexual relations at work and making unwanted sexual advances. But the more concerning, I think people would agree, are allegations about criminal offences. And these include 29 rapes, including one of a child. Most of the allegations were about sexual assaults, 149 in total, including some which happened during strip searches. Other allegations included stalking, indecent exposure, revenge porn. There were two allegations of attempting to converse with a child or possessing or making indecent images of children. Interestingly, just over 40% of these allegations came from members of the police, so within the force itself.

And one of those is a former policewoman we're calling Ruth. Now, she said she was too scared to make a criminal complaint at first and regretted it when she did. Her words are spoken by an actor to protect her identity. I was a probationary officer and I'd worked with this male officer for several months. We had got on well, then on a works outing I got sexually assaulted by him. He touched my chest multiple times saying, you touch mine, I'll touch yours. No one else saw and he was my line manager so I felt like I couldn't say anything. I felt violated, I was

really uncomfortable. I told my partner and he was fuming. What happened next? The next day I got a text from him saying hope you had a good time. I decided to reply saying he was inappropriate and if it happened again I would report him. He sent a text back apologising. Could you move on from that? No I didn't want to work alongside him anymore. But when I told my superiors, they said I was duty bound to say why. When I did, they said I had to tell professional standards and make a complaint. I said no, I didn't want to risk my job. I was eventually persuaded to speak to professional standards and was interviewed as an assault victim only for professional standards.

I didn't make a criminal complaint at that stage. What happened with professional standards? By the time the hearing was due, I had been transferred and found out that my new boss was a friend and colleague of the man who assaulted me. He issued me with a development plan to improve my performance. I was upset as I believed there was nothing to justify this. They said if I didn't complete it I would be marked as underperforming. In the same meeting they told me I wasn't cut out to be a cop and they were extending my two-year probation period

by four months. This felt to me more like a disciplinary than anything else. Sometime later in training I was served with allegations about my honesty and integrity. This was a month before the misconduct hearing against my former line manager was due to be heard. I had to wait months to get full details. I got served with 19 other allegations, including that I'd lied about my health and that a back injury caused at work had actually happened in my own time. At the time, officers from the Professional Standards Department would turn up unannounced when I was working. I wasn't allowed to get my Police Federation representative along.

The Federation was of course also supporting the man who assaulted me. I was pregnant at the time. All of this made me very ill. I got depression and anxiety. I ended up going to hospital with stress at one time. What was going on with the investigation into the other officer at this time? His hearing was postponed four times. They were dealing with mine instead. I kept being told I was not entitled to legal advice. Eventually I got independent legal advice and I made a criminal complaint about the officer but after a 12-month wait I was told there would be no further action saying it didn't meet the evidential threshold to be sent to the Crown Prosecution Service. It was over a year later that the

professional standards hearing into the allegations about me took place and I was dismissed. I couldn't believe it. I wrote to the police and crime commissioner for backing but I never heard anything. I didn't know what to do. What happened to the officer you complained about? He resigned. But they still allowed him to give evidence at my hearing and make counter-allegations. Now he has no stain on his character, but I am on the policing barred list. I can never be an officer and it's all for something I didn't do. I can't believe it. I got assaulted, it was never dealt with and I lost my job. I'm now taking legal action.

Mel Abbott, our reporter, is still with us listening to that. And I have to say, we had a message straight in when we began this discussion, Mel, saying here, which chimes with that in some ways, I was an officer with the Met. I was dismissed after I reported sexual assault and other messages coming in saying that is the problem, the system, which I know we'll get to very shortly. But what have the police force in question said about that case? Yeah, we're not naming the force to protect her anonymity, but the force told us that it can't comment because this case is subject to legal proceedings. Now, we have also asked in a separate Freedom of Information request, how many police officers were accused of any kind of misconduct

while they were investigating crimes where the victims were female. And over the last three years, at least 61 officers were accused of misconduct for a range of issues. It includes things like falsifying log entries, failing to protect vulnerable women. There may be some overlap with our overall figures because there were some allegations too, again, of sexual misconduct. Now, eight officers have resigned over those allegations,

some before disciplinary hearings could be brought. Now, the actual number could be higher still because 27 forces failed to provide us with any data. Thank you very much for that. Harriet Wistrick is also in the studio, director of the Centre for Women's Justice. The centre has made a super complaint against the police, which accuses them of institutionalised sexism, a case that we covered a few weeks ago here on Women's Hour. First of all, Harriet, your reaction to these figures that our Freedom of Information request has uncovered? Well, they are shocking figures, that there are these levels of allegations against police. And what we know for sure, because we know in any event, whoever is a

perpetrator, that women are very reluctant to report sexual assault and other forms of misconduct to the police. And that probably almost certainly is amplified where the alleged perpetrator is a police officer, because who are they reporting to? To the police. So they're likely to be, you know, very significant underestimate of the true scale of misconduct by the police. And that is, of course, extremely concerning because the police are who you should be able to go to, to seek support and protection and investigation of allegations. Which is part of your complaint in the sense of who you want to investigate, who polices the police? Absolutely. So we are awaiting an investigation into a super complaint that we launched last year, which looks at police perpetrated abuse, primarily domestic abuse, but obviously it involves often sexual misconduct. And one of our key recommendations is that there has to be an independent reporting channel so that women have confidence to come forward. And there has to be independent investigation because often the very same people who are investigating know the officers concerned. They're in the same police force, particularly in the smaller police forces.

And this is very undermining of confidence. And we have seen some very alarming. We've had over 150 women come forward to us since we launched the complaint. And we've seen some very alarming stories like the one we just heard. Receipt has been in touch saying, yes, let's face it on this story. Many allegations of this kind do not end up in court anyway. The whole system needs changing. Angela says no Radio 4 Women's Hour in terms of the report from Mel there.

Just one allegation of police sexual misconduct per day over the last five years, just under one, excuse me, is not a small number. It may be a small percentage of the total number of police officers and the forces that responded, but it is a surprisingly large number. Carrie says the single thing that puts women off reporting sexual offences is the CPS deciding your case has no merit, despite the police doing everything they can, assuming your force will actually investigate this is answering a slightly separate question about sort of faith in the police and and how that works um harriet our case and our investigation here does show the complexities of these

investigations too there were allegations also made about police female police officers which were upheld some of these cases are just very difficult aren't they well sexual misconduct generally sexual assault and domestic abuse you know complexity, but we have to grapple with them. And I think the question in relation to many of the sexual misconduct issues, you know, like officers who target women that are reporting rape or sexual assault or domestic violence. And we hear many of those sorts of cases where victims have reported and then suddenly the officer starts an inappropriate sexual contact. At the time, the woman may be confused. She may think, oh, here's an officer coming to rescue me. What a marvellous man. And then realise he's abusing her position. So it may not amount to a criminal offence, but it is a form of police misconduct. And that should be absolutely, you know, a sackable offence to tread over those lines.

We wanted to interview Louisa Rolfe from the National Police Chiefs Council, which represents all police forces, but she wasn't available this morning. She has spoken to our colleagues on Newsnight and told them that she was shocked about these numbers. They are incredibly serious allegations. And it's really important that every single one of these reports is looked into really thoroughly and robustly. I think there is no place for abuse within policing and the vast, vast majority of officers join policing because they want to keep people safe, they want to protect victims and they want to bring offenders to justice. The Freedom of Information Act responses will reflect our own recording of incidents within policing.

And we know that recording has gone up, both with victims outside of policing and within the service. We've worked incredibly hard to increase people's confidence to come forward. And we will take these allegations very, very seriously. We absolutely expect officers to display the right values, to be ethical in the way that they police, but there is no place for abusers in policing. And so I'm horrified to hear of every single one of those cases. Does that provide any reassurance, Harriet? Well, it's empty words at the moment. What we need to see is systemic change. We need to see something that can actually

start restoring confidence. And that means proper accountability. It means any, you know, a separation of investigation, a separation of misconduct proceedings. So a separate force, we've recommended, should be investigating these so that there is no appearance of taint, even if actual taint, which often we've seen there is.

She's also stressed, Louisa Rolfe, from the National Police Chiefs' Council, that any allegations of this kind are treated very seriously and stressed that policing is a safe place for women. women? Well, I mean, we heard the story earlier. And it is not the only story I've heard of that kind where a woman is working in the police who reluctantly makes an allegation, perhaps she's told she has to as exactly the same story I've heard, at least twice previously. And once she's made the allegation, suddenly they dig around and find something or other and they turn the whole thing against her. And she's sacked from the police. In the meantime, you know, the sexual misconduct or the domestic abuse is difficult to prove and the officer may get away with it. Well, let's hear what Louisa has to say on that about the police being a safe place for women. Policing on the whole has a very positive can-do culture and I've experienced

more misogyny and abuse outside of policing than I've ever seen within policing because this is a very small minority of people but we're also really alive to the fact that a very small number of people are attracted to roles like policing because of the power, the status it affords them. And we work incredibly hard to root that out and ensure that we are intolerant of this kind of behaviour and abuse in policing. Sadly, misogyny occurs in all walks of life. It is not isolated to policing. And there are more and more women in senior positions in policing like me, like others in police roles. And I think we take this incredibly seriously and will identify and address any poor behaviour that we see. Harriet, the idea that she's experienced more misogyny outside the police forces as a form of kind of trying to calibrate this in some way.

Does that work for you with what you're seeing and saying? Well, all I can say is all the accounts that I've heard over the years and through this super complaint, which suggests, you know, that there is misogyny. It's not just in relation to perpetrators as well. So many women who, you know, are being, you know, who report crimes of violence against them experience misogynistic attitudes from police officers. Now, are being, you know, who report crimes of violence against them, experience misogynistic attitudes from police officers. Now, I agree, of course, many police officers go in there with the aim to improve and protect women. And it's not it's not all police officers by any chalk. Well, it would seem the majority fall into that camp, even if you think it's underreported.

Absolutely. And I but I but there is, you know, there is no place whatsoever for misogyny within the police. And it needs to be tackled much more robustly and rooted out. And we need to hear a zero tolerance response about all these allegations. A final word from Louisa Rolfe from the police side of things. She does think it's being dealt with very robustly. Let's just hear that. Every police force has its own professional standards team or complaints investigation team that does work independently of other areas. But also there are things that we do to ensure that impartiality of investigators. We've recently written to police forces as well to ensure that forces think about how they can ensure absolute integrity of investigations

and then investigators are completely independent from anyone accused of a crime but also independent from victims and witnesses so that people can be reassured but I would also ask victims if they're not confident or have any concerns they could consider going directly to the independent office for police conduct. I'm horrified if I discover that there are police officers who abuse and use their role in particular to abuse others, as are the vast, vast majority of my colleagues. So, you know, there's nothing we hate more in policing than a bad police officer. So, you know, I think our own investigators do a great job, but also the Independent Office for Police Conduct have a role here in overseeing what we do. But this is also an

area of our business that's inspected regularly by Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary to ensure that we are independent and appropriate in those investigations. We do take them incredibly seriously. But also, I think we are really keen to learn from work like yours, the FOI request, there will be things for us to learn from that, from great organisations like the Centre for Women's Justice, who will hold a light up to shine a light on this work, so that we can be even better at responding for victims. Independent, impartial. And yet, Harriet, as we started this conversation, you think there needs to be a different process. And I'm also minded to mention here on Woman's Hour a few

weeks ago, again, Sue Fish, the former chief constable of Nottinghamshire Police Force, actually, when I asked her, would she report a crime against herself to the police? And she said no, which was quite a moment. So is it independent enough? Is it impartial enough? Well, we don't think it is. We think we have seen too many cases where the Department of Professional Standards, which is the investigators, are too closely linked, are not robust and independent enough. And for that reason, in our super complaint, we have recommended a completely separate route for reporting and a separate route for investigating and for misconduct proceedings as well. So that there should be reassurance because clearly there are too many cases. I'm not saying all cases because sometimes we see very good investigations by Department of Professional Standards. But it's inconsistent and there's too many bad cases

and something needs to be done. And if the police want to completely restore confidence for women reporting, they need to put in place measures to ensure that there's a greater degree of independence. Because that's the big loss. That's the big worry here, isn't it? The faith. It's not just about working in the police.

It's the faith as a woman to report to the police and be taken seriously. And that's the bigger goal. Absolutely. And that is what we work with across the board, not just around police perpetrated abuse, but against misogyny and abuse more generally. And until we have, you know, we need the police to be completely on our side.

We saw the protests after the Sarah Everard disappearance and so on. And that was a mass protest, really, which included a lot of protests from women saying we are not being protected. Harriet Wistrick, thank you very much for talking to us, Director of the Centre for Women's Justice. Many messages coming in on this. And also just wanted to tell you there will be more on Newsnight about these figures this week. And a separate investigation by our colleagues on the Radio 4 programme,

File on 4, has found that UK police forces have received more than 800 allegations of domestic abuse carried out by officers and staff over the last five years and just 5% were prosecuted. More on those figures this evening on File on 4 at 8 o'clock tonight. And I should say, if you're affected by sexual violence or abuse, the details of organisations offering support are available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line

or you can call for free at any time to hear recorded information on 0800 077 077. A couple of messages I did want to make sure I read out. My friend has no faith left in the police after dating a policeman for several years and living together. She said his behaviours became worse after he joined the force.

As he became more narcissistic and deceitful, the relationship ended as she discovered he had been seeing a female colleague behind her back. Another one here, just listening to Louisa Rolfe from the police. Empty words. She's got no idea what's going on in her own force. No name on that,

but sounds perhaps like you have worked in the police or are working in the police or seem close in some way to that. And obviously a very striking message there about somebody's friend. But I also want to make sure I read this from Janet. She says, I've gone on welfare visits with the Met, the met police anti-trafficking and kidnap units we

visit some potentially vulnerable sex workers these officers i've worked with are amazing they their focus is making sure these women are safe and in control of their work and that's just come in from janet so do keep your messages coming in on this on any experiences you don't have to give your real name anything you want to share 84844 is the number you need. And just to say again, if you need any support, you can call at any time on 0800 077 077. and how we're living and perhaps how we can make ourselves feel just a little bit better. Well, I'm here to tell you all, certainly I've been told by those apparently in the know, that the 70s are back and that's in the hair stakes anyways. You could have been thinking that perhaps that trend was driven by how shaggy a lot of us look during lockdowns as hairdressers closed their doors and left us to our own devices.

Mullets, the shag, fluffed out afros, flicks are all apparently back and trend spotters are linking it to a need for greater optimism. And while lots of things are not quite like they were, not least after Boris Johnson's announcement yesterday to delay the lifting of final restrictions in England, we can still but try to tame our

barnets, said with no hints of any irony on account of my own surname, into something that makes us feel a little better. We are joined by the top hairstylist nikki clark and camilla k from glamour magazine nikki i'll start with you good morning good morning your hair how do you describe it it's quite long if people mine yeah is it the shag probably probably probably unruly and wash and wear since i think it's still wet from the shower i'm very jealous that you can do that. I did ask you before when we met this morning if you blow dry and you said, no, I'm a guy.

I don't do that. I'm quite jealous of that. But the 70s, I know that people keep their hairstyles for long times and perhaps we're not as faddish as we once were, but there has been a bit of a trend towards this. What do you make of it? Yeah, I mean, there has. I mean, it's not to say that we don't see this kind of every few years. I mean, we kind of get

that sort of hippie chic 70s version coming constantly back. But, you know, there is an element of, as you said, I mean, the mullets, which actually is kind of more of an 80s thing. Certainly, you have to pick your moments. And I think that it's a very young thing. I mean, it's a thing for 25 year olds, quite frankly. And there are always going to be people that are going to just dip in to those looks. And whether you're going sort of, you know, full Farrah Fawcett or you've got your perms going on

or you've got your shaggy haircuts, then, you know, I think it's... We just had a bit of interference there. Someone was trying talk to us carry on there you go um no i think it's i think you're always going to get the younger element just wants to kind of experiment and i think that there is so much that the 70s itself actually has to offer because you've got so much so everything from sort of um glam rock to punk rock to uh uh you know the the kind of easy listening sort of carpenter's look. Let's bring in Camilla at this point. I mean, just to just to clarify, it's not the mullet. Is it the shullet? Tell me what that is.

So the shullet is a mix between the mullet and the shag. So obviously the shag made famous by Farrah Forster you know that long choppy layers at the end you know for me that's the 70s romantic vibe of summer loving with the glistening through the hair um mixed with the mullet obviously it was 80s but it was around in the 70s as well you know um think Ziggy Stardust I mean that was a pretty epic mullet and so the blend of the two and it's been called the shullet or the wolf cut um which is what has been coined, and that had 108 million views on TikTok. So I think we can definitely say that there is an interest in 70s hair from the younger generations. It's coming through. OK. And is this déjà vu for you, Nicky?

It is a bit, yes. I started my career in 1974. And actually, it was that real crossover from pageboy cuts of 74 to suddenly Farrah Fawcett in 75. I mean, it really was. Full disclosure here, because we're on the radio, you have done a bit of to me this morning while I was finishing my scripts. What have you done to me? Because we did it without a mirror. It would be quite nice to be able to do things that actually hark slightly back to that without it necessarily going into full retro so in fact what we did with yours is we just tongued it a bit which i think for you anything other than it just being washed and blow dried i think is out of your comfort zone so excuse me i've had to deal with my

own hair um for a long time obviously like everyone hair but but i don't know about that i mean i try but i find it it's a lot of work it's just just, isn't it? You know, I'm very jealous of people who can just, as you do, seem to just roll out. How long did it take? It didn't take very long. I do not have your skill. And that's why we missed hairdressers so much, isn't it, Camilla? And do you think it is part of us needing to cheer ourselves up at the moment? I do.

I do. I mean, you know, we've talked about it as freedom beauty. You know, that moment that we were reunited with our hairdressers and our hairstylists and hair and you're pink at the moment i am pink especially i um i went for my first appointment after lockdown and i've been dying for my highlights to cover my gray and decided that was way too boring and came out pink i was like you know this is a time where actually we've had a period of um reflection on lives and identity and who we want to be and now we're we're here we can play with it we can have some fun and experiment and who we want to be and now we're we're here we can play with it we can have some fun and experiment and it's hair it grows back it washes out you know

do what you want to have some fun but but also I mean because I'm going to have the same hairdo I think you know till I die unless something happens to it I'm one of those women which Nikki's already been laughing at this morning um it is what I find interesting because I don't read any of this stuff if I'm honest about how it changes necessarily is that I've learned from some of your articles over at Glamour that people are saying you can't have a side parting anymore. Tell me about that or something's gone on with side partings. Yeah. So Gen Z have decided to cancel side partings. And there was a Gen Z to remind everyone is what age group? Up to kind of 24, 25.

So my hairdo's been cancelled. Go on. So side partings, there was a trend on TikTok for people talking about how side partings were old, basically. You couldn't wear them if you were Gen Z. And then reaction videos from millennials saying, oh my God, my hair's out of date.

My hair's out of trend. So it was just a fun thing where there was a bit of banter between the generations on, you know. Go towards your middle parting. Yeah, middle parting is the thing. I think my face would look completely odd if I changed it at this stage but maybe I'm

wrong um I also just mentioned in our um in our description of what's coming back fluffed out afros are also a big trend yeah so I wouldn't say afro is a trend because afro is a natural natural textures for hair but definitely you know again in lockdown a lot of women embrace their natural texture yeah you know they didn't have straightening treatments or couldn't go to the hairdressers and they've learned to experiment. But more the fluffed outside of it rather than keeping it. Yeah. And I think a lot of people, you know, are embracing that and just going with it. And it looks great. You know, that big hair is definitely a trend. Whatever texture of hair you've got, you know, that big brushed out, fluffy, curls, straight, whatever it is, the volume.

I was going to say, Nikki, just to address this head on, there will be people listening to this thinking, why are we talking about hair? It's just not that important. What would you say? It's interesting because, I mean, on a personal level, I've sort of been saying that for years. I mean, kind of beating myself up over my own profession.

Have you? Yeah, I have, actually. I always kind of slightly dismiss it as, yes, it's important, but it's also not that important. But I don't actually believe that. And I think lockdown has enhanced my view that we are part of the jigsaw, the cog of making people feel better. And whether that be going to the gym or doing yoga or wearing certain clothing, it's just part and parcel of people actually feeling good about themselves and I would even go as far as to say that when you take make the effort to make sure that your hair suits you and your lifestyle

actually it becomes less work and it's only when people have sort of bad haircuts that you see them it's constantly fiddling and they can't get it right and it's isn't it people have sort of bad haircuts so you see them it's constantly fiddling and they can't get it right and it's isn't it people have that thing they do don't they where they always move their hair a certain way to even if they like their haircut to make it look a certain way in the picture they just can't help but do it it's like these things that they have I don't know these people you nodded to Miller I'm not alone with that am I it's just it's the pose that somebody will do or move their hair a certain way I mean I think we've all got a deep-seated appreciation for hairdressers over this last year, you know,

and how much we've missed them and the skill that they have, not only in creating great hairs that suit you, but also in the feel-good factor of, you know, lifting spirits. When, you know, things can be tough around you, actually going to the hairdressers, having a chat with someone who knows you. They were coming from a low base, though, when you've got your 14-year-old daughter or something cutting your hair.

I mean, hairdressers are suddenly put up onto the pinnacle. But no, you're absolutely right. You must have done mothers and daughters over the years, lots of them, Nicky. And I was also thinking about that relationship, especially if trends are coming back, how odd it must be for some mothers to see perhaps their daughters with the hairstyles they used to have.

Yeah, and I think it's certainly the same for them raiding their mother's wardrobes as well. And I think, you know, the worst thing, the bad thing is it genuinely looks better on them as well. That's the worry. But I think that it's always done in a different way. And we probably all did it in the same way. I remember in the 70s, them harking back to the 30s and the 20s. It was, you know, everybody's always kind of taking that slight backward look and there will be people that are originally from that sort of you know with that wry smile I suppose but I love the fact that people are dipping into you know but the 70s or the 80s or the 90s and they just mix it up and it becomes their thing.

I think there is also just an appreciation on you know on a serious point I'm very aware I spoke to a wedding makeup artist yesterday who who can't carry on with her business after the year that she's had it's been incredibly tough and just to that point of really appreciating people's skills you know that that what we cannot do for ourselves so it's one thing to say we can be natural people are letting their hair perhaps go more natural but actually it never looks perhaps as wonderful as it would look if somebody who's skilled knows how to make it look natural and I think do you think I mean to ask both of you but start with you Camilla do you think we are now having greater respect and also what have been traditionally for sometimes been viewed as the things that women care about that we perhaps have given more importance to and prominence to over the last year yeah 100% I mean we've all

had to become mini skilled hairdressers ourselves learning how to cover roots yeah definitely not skilled in my case but um yeah and you know I do think I do think there is a deeper a deeper respect I do think you know the beauty industry at large that's had a really tough time this year as you were saying you know does deserve that respect for what it can do for people and for the industry and the and the people that work within it who are extremely talented. So, yeah, I'm glad to see it get more kudos and also be able to bring that fun to people's lives. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, Nick, is how have you found rallying the troops and keeping going during this time? It actually has been tough because, I mean, people have got into a certain mindset of, you know, of either not working.

I think from a client point of view the people that we've seen are the people that just desperately want to just get their hair cut but the problem is is that they've not got places to go particularly so even when you're talking about getting the basics done you know the skills are really where there are weddings there are christians there are bimitzvahs there are whatever and people can actually have proper you know uh proper hair done proper makeup done again and that's not what's happened so far you know people are just really kind of making do because they're not going out and they're not really there are no events yet so i'm actually hopeful that by sort of september october and we get into that part of the season that things will

start to look different and that the opening pattern the stereotypical opening pattern of a hairdresser, how are you, where are you going, what are you doing on your holidays, can return. We've skipped the holidays bit. Well, it's lovely to have you both here and to make us smile and to talk. And I should say, if you want to send us any photos of either how you looked in the 70s

or perhaps you've gone back to the 70s or you're going there for the first time or how you're looking generally at the moment with your hair and what you're thinking about it and what you're feeling about it, please do so. We are available to see such things and to share at BBC Women's Hour on social media

or get in touch with us via our website. Nicky Clark, thank you very much. And sorry you had to deal with my barnet this morning. Camilla Kay, thank you to you from Glamour magazine. So keep those messages coming in and you're doing so on 84844. Now, does everyone deserve a second chance? That is the question at the heart of a powerful new documentary filmed over two years with rare access to the Roj detention camp in northern Syria,

home to around 1,500 former female members of the so-called Islamic State and their children, including most famously the UK national Shamima Begum and US national Hoda Muthana, who made global headline news after leaving their homes in the West to join the Islamic State group. Now they want their chance to start over and come home. When I was a teenager, I was so ungrateful. I was young and naive and I felt like I knew everything and I felt like I was right and everyone else was wrong. You know, I said I hated my mum, but now I realise, you know, I love her and I feel most safe with her. I'm most loved with her.

I would say to the people in the UK, give me a second chance because I was still young when I left. I just want them to put aside everything they've heard about me on the media and just have an open mind about why I left and who I am now as a person. I'm joined now by Alba Satora-Kluwer, the director of that film, which is called The Return, Life After ISIS. It premieres on Sky Documentaries and on streaming service now from June 15th from today at nine o'clock this evening. Welcome to the programme, Alba. Hello. Tell us, first of all, how you ended up making this film.

It all started in 2015 while I was doing my previous film. I made the film about a Kurdish female fighter that was fighting against ISIS. And I was following her for three years, like coming back and forth. And I was embedded in an all-female commando dressed in a military uniform. And I lived the war against ISIS from the Kurdish front lines.

And that experience, it was a very heavy experience in many ways. But witnessing all the atrocities that ISIS was committing triggered many questions. And especially when thinking of foreign fighters coming to Syria, young women, sorry, young men coming from many countries all around the world. And when thinking about women, especially women who had grown up in the West, Western women, it was very difficult to understand what will drive them there. So that was the motivation for you

to try and understand these women. And these women and these children in this camp now are stateless. They're in between. They don't know what they're able to do. And perhaps we'll get to what will happen to them and what you think perhaps should happen to them. But I just wondered how you felt going into that camp.

Was it frightening? Were you unsure of how to trust or who to talk to? It was difficult in the beginning because we, I mean, our crew, we were an all-female crew and most of our crew was female Kurdish. And of course, they had all gone through big trauma during the war. They had all lost friends, family, even some of their cities were destroyed. So we entered this camp with a lot of emotions, like strong emotions. Our idea first was to focus on the training that was carried on by a Kurdish woman, Serina,

that was trying to open a bridge for dialogue. And we found it very strong and interesting and powerful that the Kurdish woman that had faced ISIS violence in first person was able to try and open a Daedalic bridge and dialogue with them, while in Europe we are not willing to do so. So in the beginning, our focus was Sevinas, the Kurdish protagonist,

but then as we spent a few weeks there, I think that we all went through a process, a really special process of like getting rid of our prejudices and our fears and started to, yeah, to listen each other from the heart. Specifically on the case of Shamima Begum, she was 15 when she left the UK with two of her friends. She said she wants forgiveness. She's apologised. She's talked about being a dumb child who made one mistake. The UK government will not allow her to return to the UK. She's lost her fight to restore UK citizenship.

In terms of, of course, the latest on that, the Supreme Court has ruled that she will not be allowed to return to even fight her citizenship case. Do you think that she should be? I completely think she should have the right to be back and that I don't think it's fair that she has been deprived of her nationality, of her citizenship. When I met her, I think she was 18 at that time. It was in March 2019.

She just had been out of the war in Bagos. And she was, I felt very sad for her because she was like a body without emotions, without feelings, without thoughts. She was part of our workshop from the beginning, but I didn't even dare to put the camera on her because I felt she was really, really traumatized. At that time, she had also very recently lost her child. And when I think of her, like she was 15 when she was trafficked to Syria. We have, I mean, ISIS, we all know that ISIS had a very sophisticated propaganda apparatus that there were recruiters, professionals that were there to detect vulnerable women and especially child, like young women. So I think that, I mean, at 15, you are not responsible for having been, I don't know the word in English, but like sucked into a network like this when it's known that they

had a very strong techniques to do that. And she already has been through a lot. Like, she has been through a lot of trauma, a lot of... She has lived things that no one of us will live in a lifetime. And I think now she's originally... I mean, we originally need to bring her back because she needs help, she needs assistance. Well, the UK government has taken a very firm position on that.

As I say, it's been supported by the Supreme Court. There's also a lot of people who will, of course, immediately think of what they attribute to and what has been attributed to the so-called Islamic State group, their actions here in the UK, and have a very, very different view to you. But they, I suppose, haven't also spoken to her, which is why we wanted to ask you that question.

Yeah, I think that when we think on, like, if we think in terms of security, because this is what is, like, they use this idea of it's not safe to bring her back. No, because you don't do this as a punishment. No, it's because of security. I really don't understand this argument because, actually, I think that is the opposite. Keeping Shamima and keeping thousands, dozens of thousands of women with their children comes with very poor conditions of life and without the right, the right that we all have to a fair trial,

is what gives recruiters and the ideology, ISIS ideology, the narrative to bring more people in. So it's just helping the ideology to grow. And on the other hand, I think that we really need all these women back because they have information that is very, I mean, that is essential for us. If we want to work on prevention,

we need to understand how these networks work. We need to understand in which state of mind is a girl or a woman when can be convinced by a network like this to do a thing that like such an irrational thing like to travel to a country at work and they now if we look at who they are now Shanima and many other women that are in these camps they are they have left behind all the ideas that brought them there. And this is what is important for us, I think. And they are all willing to cooperate and to help

to prevent other young women to do the same mistakes. So I think I only see positive things in bringing them back. And also, I think that if we want to solve this issue, we cannot approach it from hate, from the feeling of hate or from the feeling of fear or from the feeling of revenge. We need to find a different approach. Otherwise, we will fall always in the same cycle of violence. What do you think will happen to these women, briefly, if you can?

I hope they will all be brought back and they will have the right, as we all have, to a fair trial. And then they will be judged and then they will, the ones that need to accomplish. I'm sorry, my words in English. No, you're doing very well. Thank you very much. And most of them will just be back to the normal life they want to have with their children. Well, it's interesting to get your perspective perspective having filmed for two years in that camp. The film is called The Return, Life After ISIS.

That's the director, Alba Satora-Klua, which is out on Sky from this evening at nine o'clock. Thank you for joining me there, Alba, and talking about your view based on that experience. A government spokesperson said to us in response to the film, including with that question around Shamima Bogan, should she be sent home, our priority quote is to ensure the safety and security of the UK.

We will do whatever is necessary to protect the UK from those who pose a threat to our security. It is important we do not make judgments about national security risk that someone poses based on their gender or age. Women can pose as significant a risk as a returning male fighter. Those individuals who remain in the conflict zone, including incredibly dangerous individuals, many choosing to stay to fight or otherwise support Daesh,

they turn their back on this country to support a group that butchered and beheaded innocent civilians, including British citizens. So that statement off the back of that film, which is called The Return, Life After ISIS. Now, you've been getting in touch with us throughout today's programme, not least also to an issue I will return to, which was our investigation around police sexual misconduct. Some figures there to definitely put to my next guest, which I will do so after we've had a discussion around

something that she wants to draw attention to, because it is Cervical Screening Awareness Week. And the Labour MP and Shadow Minister Jess Phillips is calling for there to be less shame around HPV, a sexually transmitted virus that she had in her 20s when she was pregnant. Most sexually active people will contract HPV but won't know that they have it. For 90% of people, it clears up. But for others, it can be serious and an early indicator of the risk of cervical cancer now in england wales and scotland you are tested for hpv in your smear test and myths surrounding infection though do create anxiety jess phillips is on the line and also i should say raising awareness for joe's cervical cancer trust good morning good morning thank you for being with us

i'll also just say that we'll turn to shortly the GP, Sarah Jarvis, for a bit more on this. Jess, just to take us back to you in your 20s, how did you find out? I was having a routine smear test before I realised I was pregnant. And or maybe it was even before. It was 18 years ago. It's quite hard to remember. But I had a routine, what I assume was my first ever smear test at the age of 21, 22. And it came back that I had what they call squamous cell dyskaryosis, which is like the sort of the cells that go on to be a concern around cervical cancer. And they told me at the time that I had HPV, which I didn't know anything about, literally anything about back then.

And you were pregnant, is that right? Yeah, so I found out very, very shortly afterwards that I was pregnant. And so I went for the treatment for the squamous cell dyskaryosis. And one of those things is that they have to burn off or cut off part of your cervix. And because I was pregnant, they couldn't do that to me. And one of the things that will stay with me forever in my experience is a number of different things. When I was in the waiting room, I was with my now husband, then just boyfriend. And I had to fill in a piece of paperwork before I was having the treatment about how many

people I had slept with and I remember being in the waiting room like trying to hide this information not that it's anything terrible but even if it was and when I asked the gynecologist who was uh undertaking what there is a cop like a colposc, like a camera, onto my cervix. I said, why has this happened to me? Because I honestly, and I was somebody, I was raised by the kind of woman who would talk about anything. I'm a natural oversharer. My mother was ridiculous, but I knew nothing about this.

And I said, why has this happened to me? And he said to me, all I'm going to say is I've never met a nun with this disease. And then when I found out I was pregnant um I was basically told that I couldn't have the treatment or and that there was a risk because my body was an incubator to the disease uh spreading quicker and advancing the cells that I had it was like you'll maybe have cervical cancer in 10 years. But they were worried that it would advance because of my body being an incubator while I was pregnant. And so they asked me if I, you know, they basically suggested that I shouldn't carry on with my pregnancy. But I've been told that I wouldn't be able to have children because I had endometriosis. And I was like, no, I'm going to go ahead with it but the whole time I felt deep shame and well guilt that I've done

this to me and my now tiny family and to my husband and that it was all me it was all my fault and that no one had ever spoken to me about it and since I wrote about it um this week I've had women coming and talking to me into my inbox all week this week saying that they've just recently had a diagnosis and they still feel like that. Yes. I mean, because we should also say it was successful for you in the sense of you were able to get it cleared out. I always like to finish the story, Jess Phillips, as well. My 16 year old son was bothering me just before. So he's very much here. He's very much now just finished school and he's bothering me

by making bacon sandwiches downstairs. So don't worry. Well, that sounds yummy, but I just wanted to make sure we'd said that. But I could see Sarah Jarvis talking to us on Zoom this morning. I could see you wincing at the idea that Jess was asked

by how many sexual partners that she had and also the idea of women still being so ashamed getting in touch with Jess. Sarah, what do you have to say about that in terms of myth-busting? Well, firstly, I'd like to apologise to you on behalf of the doctor who told you that nuns don't get it, because quite frankly, that's the most ludicrous thing to say. And I just really hope that nobody would say it now. I hope I never have even thought

anything like that, let alone said it. Because the simple fact of the matter is that actually, HPV is pretty much an occupational hazard of getting married and having children. It's as simple as that. And I have given so much advice over the years, since we introduced the HPV immunization program to parents who go, how dare you? What sort of child do you think this is? Is this going to be a licence for promiscuity? And my question to them is, of course you don't want your child to be promiscuous. Do you want them to grow up and give you grandchildren

when they get married? And they go, of course, in which case you need to protect them against HIV. Or we should say, I mean, it's not necessarily just getting married. I suppose the whole thing is that this can just happen and it's a part of life and we need to know much more about it. Sorry, when I say that, what I'm saying is these are, you know, very, very, they're very traditional families.

My child isn't going to go out there. My child isn't going to go and do this. My child will get married to the person we say they'll get married to or the someone we approve of and they will never have another partner. And the point is that that's where a lot of this concern has come from. It's much more widespread than that. And of course, we do need to bear in mind that, for instance, women who have sex with women are not immune to it.

There are so many issues we need to think about. Basically, we need to remember that this is an occupational hazard of ever having been intimate with a single person with a single person i mean that's to have had sex with them that's the thing to stress isn't it jess that you know we're trying to get away and you're trying to talk about this i know in an effort to do this to to from the shame of this so that people don't leave it untreated or don't find out and then it can get worse yeah absolutely and i have had lesbian friends say things to me like, oh, well, I don't need to worry about going for my smear tests. And similarly, people who've been, you know,

had one partner all their life. And I think that there is a real concern that the idea that, even if you were, be as promiscuous as you like, frankly, is, I wouldn't, I'm not here to sit in judgment of people, but this is not something that just happens to promiscuous people it is not something that just happens to women uh i you know i i the the reality is is hpv is not something that is exclusively for women and yet women are the ones who are left feeling shame they're the ones who are left to detect the uh

issue usually and they're the ones left to deal with it. And do you know the sadness is that we're both sitting here using the word promiscuous, because that's the word that my patient's parents used to me. Actually, if you were a man having sex with multiple partners, you'd be a lad. If you're a woman and you have more than one partner in your life, you're promiscuous, and I think that's tragic. But also, what, Jess, you would...

I'm not sure how anyone could find the time. I was just going to say, Jess, though, also, with what you were saying, it's not just necessarily how you're described, it's also how you feel about yourself that is one of the deeper things, isn't it? Well, women often feel, especially when you're talking about their fertility and their wombs, it is all labeled under some

sort of moral issue as well and we often feel like we're failing when we give birth successfully when we give birth with drugs when we give birth um by cesarean all those sorts of things people will immediately feel guilt about whichever one they did women have been given a license to feel guilty about their ovaries their wombsbs, their periods, everything for so long. And this has an added layer on the idea that it's a sexually transmitted disease. But I heard one gynecologist referring to it as being like a flu on your cervix or the common cold, and pretty much most people are going to get it. Jess Phillips, Sarah Jarvis, thank you very much for your time.

And we are sort of running out of time, but I do want to read a couple of messages, if I can, because I said I would return to this. Claire on email has got in touch with our top story today in that Women's Freedom of Information request that we did with Newsnight,

showing nearly 1,500 allegations of sexual misconduct against police officers in the last five years. Claire says, I appreciate that there will be misconduct in the police, as there is in all professions. It is shocking and horrifying. However, as a member of a family with experience of five generations

of practising police officers, I feel Woman's Hour reporting is undermining the relationship that is essential between public and police who put their personal safety, family life and mental health on the line every day. That's from Claire. And I wanted to make sure that I read that to you. But an anonymous one here saying the Office for Police Conduct, because obviously it's a balance to achieve, is absolutely toothless and useless. I've been there. I've done that. They don't help individuals.

They back things for police forces to investigate themselves. Keep those messages coming in. They always give us more. They always give us interesting insights. And I have to say, we've also had an enormous response on hair. Frances, as I said, can I dig out my crimping tongs, please? Frances, go for your life. Send us an image. Some of you have already done that as well,

and we'll post some of them on our social media feed. And if you need any more information about anything on today's programme, we'll update the Woman's Hour website. We'll be back with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Welcome to Descendants,

the series which looks into our lives and our past and asks something pretty simple. How close are each of our lives to the legacy of Britain's role in slavery? And who does that mean our lives are linked to? Narrated by me, Yersa Daly Ward, we hear from those who have found themselves connected to each other through this history.

Whoever you are, wherever you are in Britain, the chances are this touches your life somewhere, somehow. Descendants from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.