Woman's Hour - Summer Holidays, Sex Robots and Artificial Wombs, Film Director Jessica Swale

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

The school summer holidays are underway across the UK – but this year they’re going to be a bit different. Thanks to coronavirus there’s a shortage of childcare and holiday clubs, helpful grandparents are mostly off-limits, parents are already exhausted from juggling home-working and home-school for four months, and teenagers are faced with another six weeks of restricted freedoms. So how are people planning to make it through to September? In her book Sex Robots and Vegan Meat, journalist Jenny Kleeman explores seismic changes in four core areas of human experience: birth, food, sex and death. Jane will be talking to Jenny about the implications of fully functioning artificial wombs, what sex robots mean for future relationships between men and women, who the people are shaping the technological changes taking place and how soon these inventions will become an inevitable part of human life. Summerland is a new film set during WW2, featuring Alice a folklore investigator debunking myths using science to disprove the existence of magic. She lives a solitary life in a seaside cottage in Sussex but her way of life is turned upside when she has reluctantly to take in a young evacuee . Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Leann Cross Director, Home Start Greenwich Interviewed guest: Emma Thomas, CEO of Young Minds Interviewed guest: Jenny Kleeman Interviewed guest: Jessica Swale, film director Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast from Monday the 27th of July 2020. Hello, good morning to you. Today, ectogenesis. Just how close are we to babies developing outside the womb? Closer than you might think, in actual fact. And we'll discuss that in the company of the author Jenny Kleeman, who has written a fascinating book with the great title Sex, Robots and Vegan Meat. Jenny, live on the programme today.

We'll also have a chat to the director, the film director, Jessica Swale. She's had lots of theatre experience. She's now directed her first film, Summerland. It's set in World War II. It's about World War II even. It's about an evacuee who charms a lonely woman. There's much more to that story. Very, very watchable film, that.

And the great news is you will be able to see it in cinemas. We hope everything crossed by the end of this week. Now, to the notion that women's jobs are genuinely at risk because of a lack of childcare. You might have seen some of the headlines over the weekend about this story. Women being treated as sacrificial lambs in the Covid childcare crisis. That was one of them. That was The Guardian, I think, on Saturday morning. Jodie Brearley is from the organisation Pregnant Then Screwed.

The organisation did a survey of working mothers. They spoke or got information from up to 20,000 of them. 72% had done fewer hours because they couldn't get childcare. And 81% say they needed childcare to do their job, but less than half had it. Those are the bare facts. We'll also talk in a moment or two to Leanne Cross of HomeStart and Emma Thomas of the

charity Young Minds about how everybody's feeling about getting through the summer holidays. But let's start with Jolie Brearley. Jolie, good morning. This is a really, on the face of it, a really depressing survey. That must be your reaction to your findings as well. It's incredibly depressing. I mean, one of the key statistics that we gathered was that 15% of mothers either have been made redundant or expect to be made redundant in the next six months. And that 46% of those mothers say the reason they're going to be made redundant is because of a lack of childcare. And those statistics are particularly worrying because if we compare them to what's happened over the last few decades, it's taken us 24 years

to increase maternal employment by 13% in no small part because of child care provision. And what we're seeing now is that all that progress is being rapidly undone because the government has failed to acknowledge childcare as a social infrastructure. Very obvious that without childcare, one parent is unable to do their job and that disproportionately falls on women's shoulders. So for all the progress made on the whole, it is women who bear the brunt, know that women do 60% of the unpaid labour. And so now we're just seeing that that problem is magnified and the result is that women are being pushed out of their jobs. Has this happened partly because of a lack of female involvement in the higher levels of the current government?

I mean, absolutely. Where are the women? We are not seeing any women on those decision-making groups at all. Well, people who've been listening to the radio and watching the telly first thing this morning will have heard from Helen Waitley. We do have a Minister for Women and Equalities, that's Liz Truss. We have a female Home Secretary. I know not directly involved in this sort of decision making, but they are there in some pretty prominent roles. We're also hearing from other MPs that the government is just not interested in women's issues. Tulip Sadiq said at the weekend it's like banging her head against a brick wall. Yeah, she's a Labour MP, of course? Of course she is but from our experience of talking to MPs there are definitely some Conservative MPs who are interested and supportive but those that are in those senior roles their voice seems to be completely drowned out and we're not hearing anything from them

in terms of childcare, in terms of flexible working, in terms of anything to do with how this pandemic is disproportionately affecting women. And that's very concerning. So apart from an acknowledgement, Jolie, what else would you like? We would like to see a financial investment in the childcare sector. The Early Years Foundation has said that one in four childcare facilities will close their doors for good before Christmas and provision was already very threadbare across the UK. Without that provision there is no way women will ever get back to work. We need women back to work for the benefit of the economy so we want to see targeted investment in the childcare sector immediately to ensure more childcare facilities do not have to close their doors.

I know that Public Health England today are reporting that there's increased drinking during lockdown, that women have perhaps increased their drinking. I should say that women are certainly not drinking anywhere near the levels of men. But nevertheless, this whole period has been a tremendous strain, particularly on women, I think you would say. I mean, yes, absolutely. The stress has been enormous. And we know from the Institute of Fiscal Studies that for every three hours that men get child free to be able to work, women only get one hour child free to be able to work and

we're hearing stories from women who are having zoom calls and their children are running in with no clothes on we heard from one woman who her child came in and started drawing on her face while she was having a zoom call with her boss and the next day she was up for redundancy the stress is out of this world and when you're're trying to do two full time jobs at the same time, inevitably, you're going to end up with mental health issues, with severe stress problems, you're going to stop sleeping and you're going to start drinking. Yeah, I mean, in the example of the woman who was trying to do her job with a child drawing on her face, are you actually suggesting that her employer decided that she wasn't up to it on the basis of that incident? Absolutely, I am suggesting that. And we know that this happens. We know that employers get rid of women because they think they're not committed to their jobs because they have children. There is tons of research that supports that. And it's very subtle. They don't

say that outright. We're getting rid of you because you've become a mother. They just suddenly, either their personal development reviews go from really great to substandard, or they suddenly get made redundant, or they just get pushed out in other ways. This was happening before COVID-19. And again, we're just seeing that it's happening more and more because of this pandemic and the pressures. Yeah, I mean, OK, it'd be really interesting to see what the listeners say. And they're very welcome to email us this morning via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour.

Just making the obvious point, Jolie, of course, that men are parents too, but don't seem to be suffering to quite the same extent. No, they're not. I mean, the research we did was with mothers. It wasn't with fathers. So we can't say exactly what their experiences are. But again, the research has shown that it's women that are disproportionately scooping up the unpaid labour

required to look after the children now they're not at school. Right. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. If that's you or if you're a father who feels that actually it hasn't been a bed of roses for you either, please do make sure you contact us. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. If that's you or if you're a father who feels that actually it hasn't been a bed of roses for you either, please do make sure you contact us. Thank you very much, Jolie. Jolie Brearley from the organisation Pregnant Then Screwed. So let's talk about how everybody's going to try to get through the summer holidays.

I appreciate in Scotland they've been going on for some time and indeed they're over in about, I think, something like 14 days. The Scottish schools will be going back to start the autumn term but Leanne Cross is the director of Home Start in Greenwich in London which supports families with children between nought and five. Emma Thomas CEO of the mental health charity Young Minds. Leanne what do you know about the people you normally work with in Greenwich? How are they coping? Well, I think the Greenwich picture is probably the same as the national. The families that we've really seen affected have been those with the nought to ones, whether that's mums who have felt that their whole maternity leave has been missed and not been able to get involved in

groups or get to know other mums while they've been off. Especially if they had their babies at the beginning of lockdown. Also, our families who have both working at home or single parent families still working through the pandemic. It's been extremely challenging. Even those who have been able to access some childcare or some schooling, have just found the increasing burden of trying to be the parent and keep up with all the social expectations and the homeschool learning and try and enjoy this time with their families. And that's flipped with still trying to hold down their full-time jobs

or part-time hours or whatever flexible working looks like. Childcare and working at home is really, really stressful. We know they've been really affected. And I think another group of our families that have been affected are those who already had some kind of anxiety or I probably won't go on too much because Young Minds Online. No, no, don't worry. Those who already have anxiety or depression

and then that social isolation has really impacted on them more severely. Don't worry. Those who already have anxiety or, you know, depression. And then that social isolation has really impacted on them more severely, as well as those who've got families who have maybe been affected by the pandemic itself. So that's and that seems to be the picture definitely locally in Greenwich. And I know from my partners that that's been up and down the nation. What's opening up now, if anything? So I would say you have to kind of get to know your local lockdown because there are some lockdowns that are more localised. So yes, open spaces are now open. Adventure playgrounds are now open.

You can use your bubbles. And I would say to families, use your bubbles. If you're in that position that you can use your bubbles and i would say to families use your bubbles if you're in that position that you can bring a child a grandparent in and that's safe to do so do so um if you've got two families who can bubble up together two single parent households do so get to know the rules that you can feel confident about the activities that you do with your children but to go back to our earlier conversation with Jolie, childcare is pretty difficult to come by at the moment and the summer play schemes, which lots of people rely on,

they're just not available, are they? Not like they normally are. No, there definitely aren't as much provision open at the moment and I think for lots of reasons, including not really having enough time to plan it effectively and to do so with the bubbles when they were running at bubbles um we run some child care we're open in the summer so i would say to parents talk to your provider who you will normally have your child care with so if your child care if your children normally go to a summer camp or a nursery get in touch because if they may be open to you um and they may be um trying to find out

who what the need is and if the need is there they can do something even if they're not open they will have some idea of who is open that will be able to provide you with some kind of support the leisure centres are now opening who usually do a lot of the summer activities. So get in touch with the leisure centres. Even if they've not got something up and running this week, you don't know what can be shaped. August is still a whole month there. Get in touch with them, find out what's going on.

Use your mum networks or parent networks and find out what's happening on the social groups. That's been a resource, I know, definitely for me, finding out what's open. If it's something small, sometimes it's limited places or they're just doing a bubble of eight. So get in there if there are places and you're comfortable with that. I think that's the other side of it. You've got to feel comfortable. Yeah, well, that's what I was going to ask you.

I mean, I think anecdotally, I have heard there are some families who haven't crossed the threshold since March. That is that is very true. It's very true. I think we've been really trying to reach out with our shielding families and our families with children with disabilities who accessing the outdoors was quite difficult anyway so if they've not got the carers they've not got the additional help at the moment and getting out with children with whether it be wheelchairs and small children or some of our families with large amounts of children that's been a real obstacle for them. Our Home Start volunteers would usually go and spend time with these families in their home and go out with them. I know around the UK some of our volunteers have been doing doorstep meets and greets and some of our family supports in Greenwich have been doing a doorstep meet and greets.

Just checking on those families and our message is talk to your neighbours. Well, I was going to say, even if it's not your normal way of behaving, this is a really good time to reach out, make eye contact, get talking, because at a safe distance. But, you know, we need to start doing this, don't we? Otherwise, we'll all really, we'll just feel even more down in the dumps. I have to say, and I can only speak for central London, it is grey. It has been raining since the very crack of dawn. But I am here to tell you it's going to be very hot and we'll all

be complaining about the sun by Friday. So, and that's true, by the way, Emma Thomas of Young Minds, Leanne mentioned the older children and teenagers. It's not been the summer they might have hoped for. And I particularly feel for the ones with all those rites of passage that have just been taken away from them. What are you hearing about how they're coping? I mean, isn't it just really just so sad for those because, you know, summer should be that time of exploration, developing independence, testing boundaries and hanging out with your friends. And that's so important for teenagers. So I think we've all found this emotionally difficult and distressing. But I think it's been particularly hard for young people during this time.

And now, as I see the summer ahead of them and as you've described, some fearful still about kind of the virus, living in households where things continue to be really difficult, particularly financially. You know, it just is. It's a very tough time, I think, for young people. In particular, the public exams, the results coming out over the next couple of weeks, these are very significant moments. And some teenagers will feel robbed of their right to, or yeah, their chance to shine, I guess, because they'll get their results, but the impact won't be quite the same. There'll be other people feeling, well, you know, if I'm going to be marked on the basis of my mocks, I'm really going to do badly. And that's not really the real me. It's all it's all just so unfair, isn't it, really?

Well, I'm fair and uncertain about, you know, those coming weeks and results and what that would lead to. And I think one of the most important things is that we've been hearing from young people is that it's so important they're able to talk about those things feeling unfair and that they are able to understand that their emotions around this is really valid because, you know, kind of we're all caught up in this kind of global pandemic. And I think sometimes young people have been fearing that that unfairness and that lack of rites of passage are just insignificant in comparison and they're not they're all relative to young people's lives and their hopes and their dreams and this just I think is a another worrying and uncertain time when they need the support and

kind of the pressure you've been talking around on parents I think is just making sure that they're able to to reach out be that to friends on social media through some of the easing up of the restrictions just to spend time with people and start to think that we will get through this. There will be a future for them beyond what they're feeling at the moment. Yeah, I guess those of us who are older have a sense of perspective and we know this won't go on forever. But that's a slightly harder state of mind to get into if you're 16 or 18, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. And because this has been going on so long, that lack of support network, the isolation, they've been feeling the brunt end to schools and things. I think this just can feel as if you're just stuck in this kind of endless kind of, you know, kind of spiral of things being

worse. But we know that that isn't the case. A bit like your optimism, Jane, about the sunshine coming. You know, we have got through this. It's based on the BBC weather app. I mean, it's not just come out of anywhere or nowhere. We need to take that hope where we can, can't we? Yes. And I think reminding ourselves we've got through this so far and reflecting back on, you know, when I think particularly

young people have come to the end of school, not just looking at it as the kind of loss of the end, but think about what they've achieved over the whole of the time and the friendships that they've made. And those things that will move forward with them are really important to have a sense of continuity and that we will come through this. Yeah, that's all very well, of course, but the plain fact is there just isn't much for them to do.

And if you've got no money, there's almost nothing to do. Any suggestions? Well, I mean, I think as Leanne was saying, things are opening up in terms of opportunities to spend time. And we have seen the easing of freedom. So kind of spending time with their friends is important. And if the sunshine comes, continuing to enjoy that within the park. I think some of the most important things is kind of continuing to have a degree of routine and create life together as a family and doing some positive

things together and enabling that and particularly to be time when you can spend time and talk and see how they're feeling and coming up with some solutions and opportunities of how they can use that time. And, you know, kind of thinking around how they get creative with their friends and what might be going on in their community. And as you say, look on their neighbours, look at what they're treated as, anyone that needs their help. And children, younger children and teenagers

who have been prone to anxiety in the past, and Leanne alluded to this as well, it's a massive problem, we know. I did hear at the beginning of lockdown that some people suspected, and you can tell me whether it's true or not, that people with anxiety might cope with all this better than the rest of us because they now had company. And it turned out, actually, that there was plenty to be anxious about.

Well, I don't know. We've done the survey with young people um 2 000 people just at the start and then um just recently and i suppose what it showed us is that eight percent of those really feel their mental health has got worse and those 2 000 young people are there with pre-existing mental health needs so those you might be describing the majority have told us that they feel their mental health has got worse and of course that might have been the start of in it together but what we also know is around 30 of those who've been relying on support for their mental health have no longer been able to access

this um there is a small group we know of young people for whom actually this has been positive that perhaps the not being at school the pressures of academics yes experience of bullying that has been a positive but actually it's a small number the majority feel their mental health really has worsened during this time and without that access to support networks of friends or in schools or the counsellors you know it's having a real toll on these young people's lives right okay well we tried to find some positivity there, but actually turned out not to be the case based on what you know. Thank you very much, Emma. Emma Thomas, the CEO of the charity Young Minds. You also heard from Leanne Cross, the director of Home Start in Greenwich in London.

Well, if you are close to any teenagers, you can let us know how they're coping. You can email the programme, of course, whenever you like, however you like. There's only really one way to do it. Via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Listener Week starts this year on August the 24th. Every single item on the programme suggested by you. I was having a look in the inbox this morning. Plenty of ideas already, but there's still room for more.

So if there's something you are really keen for us to discuss that you haven't already heard recently or ever, please, please do let us know. Tomorrow, the government is obviously keen on tackling obesity. We know that now. We're all being told to try and shift five pounds if we need to, to help the NHS. And GPs, we're told, can now prescribe cycling. So tomorrow on Woman's Hour, we're asking how women are getting on with their current bike saddles. They're not always designed for the female form, can cause a few problems. Let us know if that's an area that is impacting you in every conceivable way. Now, Jenny Kleeman is here, the author, well she's not here, but she's going to talk to me in a moment. She's the author of Sex, Robots and Vegan Meat. And as you can tell from the title, this could well be a frank conversation. So if you don't want the children to hear, you know what you can do. That should have, it was meant to sound more polite than that. But Jenny, good morning to you. Good morning. How are you? I'm very well, very happy to be here.

Well, you're a journalist and a Times Radio presenter, and this book I found, it was so absolutely absorbing. I really, really love this book. I mean, it's popular science, futuristic, futurology. How would you describe it? It's a kind of adventure into the future that's happening right now. It's done as a kind of bit of reportage where I go and meet people who are making innovations

that are going to change the way we are born, the way we eat, the way we have sex, and the way we die. And I'm not a tech journalist. I'm an investigative journalist. So it was kind of me toddling along and meeting all of these inventors and asking very obvious questions

and looking at what the unintended consequences might be of trying to engineer the perfect birth, the perfect food, the perfect sex and the perfect death. If only we had more time, we could go for absolutely every aspect of the subjects you cover in the book, but I really am keen to discuss birth. And in particular, the notion of artificial wombs, human babies growing outside the female body. Is this going to be a reality in the next 20 years, do you think? It depends what you mean. If you're talking about an absolute replacement for pregnancy, I do think that is going to happen at some point, but maybe not in the next 20 years, maybe in the next 30 years.

But if you're talking about the chance to gestate human beings outside the human body, I think there are going to be clinical trials for these devices that I've been looking into at some point this year. So these are they're called bio bags, the particular ones I've been looking at. they are is it's a Ziploc bag filled with artificial amniotic fluid and an artificial placenta, which is some tubes that you plug into the fetus's umbilical cord that oxygenate the blood and remove waste products. And these are already being developed to grow babies in from about midway through pregnancy. And they're being developed by doctors who are trying to save the most vulnerable human beings on earth, super premature babies. Well, that's what they say they're doing, isn't it? Yes, that is what they say they're doing. And that is what a lot of them are doing.

But the thinking is at the moment, if you have a baby at around 23, 24 weeks, the border of viability, doctors currently treat those babies as newborns and they put them in incubators and help them breathe. They help them with the functions they need to survive. But the process of gestation doesn't continue. These researchers have been doing experiments with lambs at an equivalent gestational age to 23, 24 weeks in humans and have found that if they put them in these bio bags, these lambs will continue gestating. They will continue growing. They'll get puffs of wool and their

tails will grow. They'll put on lots of weight. They'll continue growing completely independently of their mother to full term. And then you open the bag, you clamp the cord and the baby's born. Born? Born. That's a good, is it being born? What is happening in that moment? Well, I looked at this. The legal definition of birth is not necessarily when the baby comes out of the mother's body. It's when the umbilical cord is clamped and the baby can survive on their own independently of their mother. So technically, this kind of technology will redefine the meaning of birth. And I was looking at it because once it becomes

possible for gestation to happen outside of the body, reproduction becomes entirely equal between men and women. Men and women just need to provide the cells needed to get things started. And then when nobody has to be pregnant, we have complete equality. Yes. Well, or do we? Or do we run the risk of women, females being surplus to requirements? This is the thing. This technology I looked at, how this kind of exposes the difference between a perfect world and the real world that we're living in. In a perfect world, this kind of technology could be used for a great good. It could help people who currently would have to use a surrogate if they wanted to have a baby.

It could be used to help super premature babies survive. But in the real world, we live in a world with great inequality where some places are very misogynistic. And because this technology is being designed initially to save vulnerable babies, you have to think, what is the definition of a vulnerable baby? Could a vulnerable baby be inside the body of a woman who was drinking or smoking, or perhaps they're eating the wrong cheese or behaving in an unmotherly way? And could we see a world where this technology is being used as a way of rescuing babies who are growing inside the bodies

of irresponsible women? Well, you've already said that there are some parts of the world where women are treated dreadfully badly, and the plain fact is the only status they have is their ability to deliver children and mainly sons, if we're honest. Absolutely. I mean, in the most misogynistic parts of the world, women are still valued if for nothing else other than they might one day have a boy. So I was looking at the implications of that and also that the rights that we have now

as women, like the right to an abortion, the right to choose, derives from the right to choose what happens to your body. What if it doesn't have to happen to your body? What if you get pregnant, you decide you don't want the baby and this technology exists where the baby can continue growing but not in your body? At the moment, we have a right that men don't have, which is the right to choose not to become a parent. When this technology exists, why should a woman be able to decide that her baby should die just because she doesn't want to carry it in her body anymore? On the flip side, our first conversation this morning with Jolie Breer, pregnant then screwed. You meet this fascinating doctor in Oslo who makes the case for a future where women are not encumbered by pregnancy or childbirth at all.

Absolutely. So this is Anna Smydor. She's an ethicist who says, you know, pregnancy is barbaric. We have evolved physically and socially to such an extent that it's not fair that we expect women to joyfully go through this painful and sometimes quite dangerous process with their bodies, whereas men don't have to, just for the production of new citizens. And I was listening to that item and thinking, this absolutely shows how, you know, the one, by anyone's reckoning, the one great inequality between men and women at the moment comes from how we produce babies. And this inequality, it begins with the fact that we are providing for our babies with our bodies through the placenta or through breastfeeding or whatever kind of feeding. And that sets up a dynamic where even if you have, you know, the most engaged partner,

things are unequal. And that inequality tends to persist. And it persists to childcare provision, you know, as you were talking about at the beginning. So this ethicist was saying, we need to really be investing in these technologies that make things equal. Otherwise, it's incredibly unfair that we're expecting women to carry the burden when we're socially expecting women to be on exactly the same plane as men when it comes to work. So many questions, and frankly, no easy answers. And also the truth is we don't know what's already happened in certain parts of the world, do we? We don't actually have a clue.

This may be much closer to having, well, probably not already occurred, but could well be close to occurring in various parts of the world I probably don't need to name. Yes, I mean, the whole thing is that a lot of this kind of medical research depends on people signing up to ethical codes that are voluntary ethical codes. And so whilst, you know, in the UK and the US, we might say we're not going to grow embryos outside the human body beyond 14 days, because that's when the spinal cord develops. You know, North Korea and Russia haven't signed up to those codes. We don't know what's going on in labs in there. And the point that I make in the book is we need to we need to have conversations about this technology before this technology exists so that we don't accept it uncritically.

And we need to be using this technology for people who can't be pregnant for biological rather than social reasons. Let's move on to sex robots, Jenny. Has the first person who will only have sex with a robot already been born? Oh, yes, definitely. I mean, there are already people who are... We were trying to be cheering up the nation. I'm not sure that's... You carry on. Certainly. I mean, there are people already who only have sex with dolls, as we all know. And these are hyper-realistic dolls that have been given personalities, artificially intelligent personalities and animatronics so that they move and they speak. And you program them to be exactly how you want them to be. And they systematically ask you questions like, what's your favorite book? What do you like to eat? Who are your brothers and sisters?

And they remember so that they can then uh create um an illusion of a relationship with you by then saying oh yes your brother how's he doing how was his uh how's his work going or whatever um and there is whereas sex dolls are a kind of a niche and a fetish an artificial companion who you can talk to and have a relationship with is a much easier thing to sell because it's much more realistic. So I certainly think there'll be people, I mean, there's a man called David Levy, who's written lots of academic things about this. And he predicts that there will be human robot marriages by 2050, he says. Oh, well, God knows what the wedding list would consist of. There are some really terrifying

parts of your book. I don't want to be fatuous about some of the finer points because it's gripping but petrifying. The robots who you make the point that, or one of the inventors that you speak to, makes the point that they could help those women, real women, who are physically abused by partners. Robots will be able to withstand abuse. And you say, wouldn't it be better if we just stop men behaving like this and having these feelings? And they seem completely nonplussed by your reaction to that. Yeah, they completely don't see it. I say, wouldn't it be better if those people were encouraged not to have those feelings instead of being given something to rape and beat? That's the kind of message going throughout my entire book, which is the extent to which we can solve all of the problems that these

technologies claim they're going to solve by changing our behavior instead of relying on machines to give us what we want without making any effort. And the same goes for artificial wombs. If we made it easier for women to be pregnant and give birth, then we wouldn't be trying to find an alternative for pregnancy. And the same goes with sex robots. I mean, you know, the argument for sex robots is that it will provide companionship for the bereaved, for the lonely, for the socially awkward, and that it will mean that women don't necessarily face abuse. But I, you know, there's a very strong argument to say that it will perpetuate loneliness, it will perpetuate abuse once you have these objects that you can act these things out on. And in fact,

what lonely people need is human contact, not clever silicone and circuitry. Yeah. Will there ever be a market for male sex robots? I think there might be from gay men. The sex robot factory that I went to, I mean, there are some male sex robots who are being made, but they tend to be kind of pressed stunts because when it comes to the sex dolls that are made, the vast majority of them are bought by men,

and there are male sex robots, but they're bought by gay men. I can't speak for all women, but I think this shows up a very interesting difference between male and female sexuality, that for women, the idea of having sex with something that doesn't have a genuine desire for you is not sexy at all, and most women would think having sex with something like this would be ridiculous. I think it might be easier for men to suspend their disbelief, and particularly when you've got something that's always laughing at your jokes and having whatever mood you program it to have.

You do taste, at another point in the book, so-called clean meat, and it turns out to be utterly revolting. Just in about a minute explain how Clean Meat is made. Clean Meat is real meat it's flesh from an animal that is cultured so it's taken from an animal tiny little piece and it's kind of cloned in a medium and the cells divide and divide until you get a mass of cells which is meat so this is not like clever plant-based meat it's actual meat from an animal, but it doesn't come from living animals. So I ate a priceless chicken nugget grown from

the flesh of a chicken called Ian, who is still alive and flapping its wings today. And while the nugget tasted like chicken, it did not have the texture of chicken because it came from a kind of mass of cells. So it was like mush. And I was eating it in front of all of these PR people who were all grinning at me saying doesn't it taste like chicken and I think yeah it tastes like chicken but I think it's going to make me make me throw up. Yeah but as you point out in the book the money that is being poured into this industry the clean meat business is off the scale and some people somewhere think it's the place to put their dosh so they probably think they're onto onto something. Jenny, absolutely fascinating to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you for having me.

Really appreciate it. Jenny Kleeman, author of Sex, Robots and Vegan Meat. Now, Summerland is a new film. It's set during World War II, and it's about Alice Lam, who is a writer. She's a folklore investigator, debunking myths using science to disprove the existence of magic. But guess what then enters her life? She lives alone in a secluded cottage in Sussex, and then there's a knock at the door bringing an evacuee from the London Blitz looking for somewhere to live. Frank, this is Miss Lamb, your new guardian. There's been a mistake. No, you've got the wrong house. Alice Lam, Dune Cottage. Yes, but in your girlfriend's.

No you don't. I don't want him. You can't refuse. We've all got to do our bit. So you take him. I'm working. I have four of my own. More fool you. You should have been more careful. Get outside. Oh no you don't!

For God's sake! We're struggling enough to find families. I'll need at least a week to find him somewhere else. We'll have to take him till then. I'm in the middle of a draft. And if you really can't find it in your heart to keep him, then bring him to the school next week and we'll have to make arrangements. But a week. That's all.

Well, let's talk to the film, which was written... Talk to the film? Let's talk to the director, Jessica Swale, who also wrote it, that's what I meant. Jessica, good morning to you. Good morning, how are you? I'm very well, thank you. Now, the great news is this film is going to be in cinemas. Can you believe it?

I know. It's nearly impossible to believe. But it's such a privilege, actually, because I think that at a moment like this, the arts are so important in terms of making sure that we have hope and optimism for the future. And that's what this film is all about really and um to have it in cinemas at a moment when we feel like finally we're moving forward a little bit i hope from this uh horrendous time yes yeah quite and without giving away the ending of the film, I can honestly tell people this is a safe and happy place to spend an hour and a half and you won't regret it. I should have said that was Gemma Arterton, who plays Alice, and Mrs Lawrence, who was the lady with the evacuee, was knocking on the door, played by Amanda Root. So tell us a bit about your theatrical experience is considerable, but this is your first film an obvious question what is the difference well strangely I had really expected it to be a much

bigger transition to move from theatre to film but essentially your job as a director is to sort of imagine the whole picture and to pull it together and also to lead a team because you're really not unless you're an auteur you're really not a sort of one woman show it's all about making sure that you find the most creative elements from all of your company from the actors and from the creative folks on the team and between all those people honing the best possible and most imaginative story that you possibly can. And if you can do that in the theatre, you can do it on film. Obviously, the big difference is that you need to know more about cameras and the technical side of it. But that's why you work with the best possible team.

And, you know, I learned a huge amount, but it was an amazing experience. And I can't wait to do the next one. I have to be honest, when it started, I actually thought, I've seen this before, Taciturn Loner charmed by evacuee. That has been done before. But just again, without giving too much away, what else is in this film that people might not be expecting? The gay love story, I guess, for a start.

Yeah, a gay love story at the heart of it and also a huge theme about folklore and magic and the question of what if as well. It appears to be a story that might be familiar, although in fact, strangely, I have never read. It's Good Night, Mr. Tom. Good Night, Mr. Tom. That's what I was thinking of. Yes. Which is a similar, has a similar premise. Although often it's a kind of a cranky old man who's always the man, the one who has to be softened in these stories. So I wanted to shift that around anyway and play with that idea. Yeah. And cranky old women are not usually treated that well, are they, in films or by films?

No, they're not. And they're often isolated as a sort of witchy character. And actually having a cranky young woman, as Gemma is, was something I felt I really hadn't seen before and there's an interracial element in this story um and there's a whole theme about grief and the possibility of heaven whether that exists or not and a playing with a pagan theme as well and it's a lot about what it means to be English in the in the very old term in terms of folklore and the history of the land I was writing it at the time when Brexit was beginning and I was really uncomfortable actually with the notion of a sort of what English might mean. I started thinking about for myself what that might mean in terms

of it felt like it was something connected to a nationalism that I felt was very far away from something that I believed in. So actually the chance to write something which investigated, you know, this sort of ancient beauty of what England might be in terms of its soul and its old, old history, it was really exciting to be able to look at that. I was intrigued to read that you are hoping, or perhaps you've already got everything underway, you're going to film Persuasion, the Jane Austen novel. Is that true?

That's right, yes. I finished my script and it's ready to go. In fact, it's been ready to go for a little while and it's going to be directed later on this year by Mahalia Bello, who is a fantastic young director. So that is another film with a great female team. Alison Owen is our lead producer and we're off to do that later on

as soon as we're allowed to Yes, well I was going to ask because there'll be loads of Jane Austen fans who'll be intrigued by that because this is, to remind me it's Anne Elliot and Captain Wentworth isn't it and I think I did it I know I did it for A-level

and it always made me laugh that Anne Elliot was meant to be completely on the shelf because I think she was 27 or something like that, wasn't she? She was. I mean, she's ancient, isn't she? Past her 27. But I think that's partly why I love that book so much and I've spent quite a lot of time working in the sort of Austin territory myself

with doing period dramas and in fact I'm doing an adaptation of Joe Baker's Longbourn which is I think probably just as exciting for Austin fans because the upstairs downstairs story from Pride and Prejudice which is a fantastic novel um but the thing I love about Persuasion is that actually it's Jane Austin's kind of autumnal novel. It was her final novel. And as much as I adore the brightness of the characters in Pride and Prejudice and grew up wanting to be Elizabeth Bennet, there's something about the slightly older and more mature woman in Anne Elliot and the fact that, you know, like many of us at 27, she's been in love and come out

the other side and is now wondering whether you can fall in love again. You're not going to be able to tell me who Captain Wentworth is going to be played by, are you? Oh, no. You know, I don't know yet, but there is a pretty good list. It's very exciting times for casting at the moment on both of those projects. Jessica Swale, and we ended the conversation actually talking about Persuasion. She is going to, or she has written, she said, the screenplay for a film adaptation of Jane Austen's classic, which will be coming your way, we assume, if everything goes according to plan,

within the next couple of years. But she was really on to talk about her new film, Summerland, which will be available in cinemas at the end of the week. And it's, if you're looking for just something that will take you out of yourself, take you to another place and not depress you. OK, I don't want to give too much away, but you won't. You'll come out just as happy as you were when you went in, possibly even a little happier if you go to see Summerland.

Thanks for all the emails today. Some really interesting stuff. Much of it provoked by Jenny Kleeman, who has written this fascinating book, Sex, Robots and Vegan Meat. But let's just go through some of the other emails. First of all, from Victoria. I'm one of the women who completed the survey with pregnant then screwed. I have now been made redundant four times since becoming a parent. Recently, my employer has tried to pay me off, offering me a settlement to go quietly and not ask any questions. Obviously, they haven't said that, but it's exactly what's happening. I'm the only woman with children of school age

and the only employee who's been made redundant. Even the woman that shares the job with me hasn't been made redundant because guess what? She doesn't have children. I'm really sorry to hear that, Victoria. We did ask to hear from dads and here's Paul who says, as a dad who is the main carer to our two children, I've seen firsthand the problems that caregivers, predominantly women of course, are facing. I've been told repeatedly by companies, including chains, that they won't take on parents because they need 24-7 flexibility, even for 10-hour contracts or less.

I had a zero-hours contract where I regularly worked the same two days a week around my childcare and then faced a barrage from my manager for not being able to take on more days and I was told that work needed to be my first priority. On employing me, they knew I was the main carer, There we are. It's happening to men as well. Anonymous says, don't mention my name. Well, we won't. I'm a male single parent, 24-7, 365 days a year with no other support whatsoever. I've got no garden, very limited income and a daughter of 13. Lockdown has been utter hell for both of us. It's taken a toll on

our mental health. My daughter has become even more depressed but there have been good times too. A trip out to work or even buying an ice cream has become more precious. Neither of us have become rocket scientists with the extra time at home, but we have put on weight and I am drinking more. But my daughter is now reading almost a book a day, which is great. We've got no television and the internet is almost non-existent. Well, to that anonymous parent, I do hope you take heart from the fact that there are many others who are sending us similar emails actually along the same lines. You're not alone

anonymous and isn't it brilliant that your daughter has discovered reading that's something that has happened in our house as well but it's tough as he says no support no garden limited income and a daughter of 13 who was already having a tough time before all this started. And this is an email from Ruben who says, I like Jane's question around about 20 past 10 about pre-existing anxiety conditions during lockdown. But I didn't like the fact the interviewee didn't quite seem to understand the question. Well, to be fair, Ruben, not all of my questions are instantly comprehensible, even to me. But Ruben goes on, I'm on the autistic spectrum,

so I've suffered umpteen varieties of anxiety all my life, not least social anxiety. It goes with the territory. If it's any consolation for Jane, I can 100% confirm that lockdown actually has alleviated some of my chronic anxiety and made my day-to-day life easier to cope with. And the fact that so many people on Radio 4 were suddenly weeping and wailing about anxiety was actually a great consolation to me.

For the first time in my adult life, I knew exactly what was allowed and what wasn't allowed, what I was supposed to be doing and what I wasn't supposed to be doing. And best of all, nobody was putting me under any pressure to go anywhere or do anything. And nobody was urging me to get out more. Turns out I feel a hell of a lot better when I get out less. I like that. That's Ruben telling us about his own life

and how he has dealt with all this and how it hasn't been as bad for him as for many others. Thank you for that, Ruben. And not just because you saluted the intelligence of my question, although that plays a significant part in my approval. No, it doesn in. Jenny Kleeman, such an interesting interviewee. And the sort of book, if I'm honest, if I wasn't in this job, Lucinda and I were only talking about this earlier, we wouldn't have picked this book up. But we did have to pick it up for work, and we were both absolutely fascinated. Imogen is not the only person to say this. That's a misuse of the term vegan,

because the title is Sex, Robots and Vegan Meat. If the meat is made from cells taken from an animal then jenny explained that clean meat is indeed then it isn't vegan regardless of the fact that the animal isn't destroyed vegans do not use wool cashmere honey etc because all these products involve the exploitation of animals. Perhaps it could be described as humane meat, Imogen suggests. Well, clean meat is the title that the big investors and the big firms are using. And believe me, money is pouring into this sector because people do believe it's a place you should invest in right now. And as actually, as Jenny indicated, she tried a bit and it was absolutely revolting.

Now, the idea that women wouldn't carry children and artificial wombs will become a thing really got a lot of people going. This is from a listener who says, I don't want to be equal to a man by giving up my right to get pregnant, to give birth and breastfeed. As a woman, I celebrate womanhood. The problem lies in the misogynistic world we live in, not in women's reproductive capacities. Thank you for that, Anne. Yes, we should say we weren't endorsing the idea of artificial wombs. Far from it, nor is Jenny Kleeman. She's just telling you about the science that's already out there and the stuff that is already going on.

I mean, like many of you, I have real misgivings about the notions of artificial wombs, deeply troubling with so many questions that need answered. Sex dolls. Vicky says, hello, Woman's Out. Conversation just now with Jenny Kleeman, saying she doesn't think women would be interested in sex dolls. Well, millions of women use sex toys like vibrators,

so they are interested in sex with a non-human partner. You must add this to the end of the programme to balance out the conversation. Well, it's certainly in the podcast because I just mentioned it, and it's a fair enough point. But I like this one from Susan who says, I think the technological revolution is missing a trick. I would happily welcome a male robot who can fix things around the house

and do the heavy lifting and, of course, the housework. The odd job robot, something useful for women. I would buy one as an investment for my retirement. It could keep everything ship shape while I'm on holiday or at work. Now, if I'd had more time or if I'd frankly remembered, I could have asked Jenny about the current cost of robots, sex robots in particular. From memory, I think from reading the book, they're about at the moment $9,000 for a sort of deluxe model. But these are the female sex robots aimed at men. It would be interesting to see whether male housework robots, as suggested by Susan, would be cheaper than that. And I wonder, actually, perhaps you can ask the

listeners, if you had to prioritise a task for your male robot, what would it be? Forget sex, what would you really want them to do? Have a think on that and you can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Shamefully, I suggested navigate, which tells you more than you probably need to know about the current state of my life. Anyway, we're here tomorrow and we're talking in some detail about women's bike saddles. So if you've got a view on that, get involved. See you tomorrow. Hi, I'm Joe Wicks and I'm just popping up to tell you about my brand new podcast with BBC Radio 4. It's extraordinary. It almost turbo charges you. I'm really interested in the links between physical and mental health and what kind of ordinary everyday activities people do to keep on top of things.

I keep fit because it's relaxing, because it absolutely relaxes my mind. And that's so important. So in this podcast, I'm having a chat with some of my favourite people to find out their tips and tricks to staying healthy and happy. For me, it's a full-body experience, and it's a total game-changer. I think you're going to love it. Hit subscribe on the Joe Wicks podcast on BBC Sounds.

Let's do this. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.