Woman's Hour - Summer music festivals line-ups - how many female artists are included?

Episode Date: April 2, 2021

It’s exams season coming up. This summer, students will receive A-level and GCSE results based on their teachers’ predictions, after exams were cancelled for the second year in a row due to the pandemic. Teachers will be required to compile evidence to substantiate their predicted grades. Ministers have insisted that this year's grading system is the fairest plan, rather than using algorithms. However, there are concerns that ‘pointy elbow’ parents have been pressurising teachers to boost their children’s exam grades. To discuss the issues Anita talks to Emma Irving, who works part time as a private tutor, and Richard Sheriff, Executive headteacher of Harrogate grammar school and president of the Association of School and College Leaders. In Ripe Figs: Recipes and Stories from the Eastern Mediterranean, food writer, Yasmin Khan explores eastern Mediterranean’s border politics. She travels to the refugee camps of Lesvos, Istanbul and Nicosia, Cyprus. She talks about the women in Athens who have created a safe spaces for refugees and the women who use them. Yasmin also talks about the women who have set up a restaurant in Lesvos to integrate refugees into daily life on the island.This week the organisers of the Glastonbury Festival announced a one-off live streamed event in May, the bands will be performing at Worthy Farm but the audience will be at home around the world. However there are plenty of festivals planned in person once social distancing laws are – hopefully – lifted this summer. Many of them have now revealed their line-ups, and overall they are still featuring majority male artists, particularly among the headlining acts. Joining Anita are two women who want to change that - founder of the F-List Vick Bain and Maxie Gedge, UK project manager of Keychange, an initiative set up by the PRS Foundation to encourage better gender representation in music.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Richard Sheriff Interviewed Guest: Emma Irving Interviewed Guest: Yasmin Khan Interviewed Guest: Vick Bain Interviewed Guest: Maxie Gedge

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning on Good Friday and welcome to Woman's Hour. I hope you've had a bit of sunshine this week wherever you are. The sun, spring, Easter, it's all bringing a sense of hope, isn't it? Better days on the horizon, days with friends and family, happy days. Spreading a bit of positivity today on Woman's Hour. It's been rumoured that English Heritage will honour Diana, Princess of Wales,

with a blue plaque or memorable tablet at the Earls Court flat in London that she lived in before marrying the Prince of Wales in 1981. Her brother, Charles Spencer, called the flat her happy place. So today we wanted to know your happy place. Is it in bed with a cup of tea, on a beach, listening to music stretched out on your sofa? Yes, let's all take a moment to think about our happy places. Lots of you getting in touch via Twitter already this morning. Gagarin says it's Spurn Point, a beautiful part of East Yorkshire, but then which part of Yorkshire isn't beautiful? Unique Trouble says Old Trafford.

And Sandy Shoker said the garden. Since lockdown, it's become a refuge. Yes, gardens and outdoor spaces generally for all of us. And Ian says on stage or a set like slippers for him. Hopefully it will be open soon enough. And Nigel, I'm sure lots of people can relate to this. Nigel's happy place is the dining table, eating Sunday lunch, surrounded by all my family. Soon, soon, soon, we all hope. Get in touch. Tell me your happy place. You can text via,

it's 84844, or you can get in touch via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. If you fancy sending us an email, it's just head to the website one of my one of my happy places uh apart from uh woman's hour hq is uh hanging out at music festivals well glastonbury just announced their lineup for an online glasto i hope to be there in my garden with my wellies on even if the sun. Plenty of music festivals are going ahead this summer, but the majority of acts signed up for them are still men in 2021. So we'll be discussing why this is still the case, why there are so many amazing music artists out there who aren't white men and why they're not playing music festivals. And today we're also travelling together in the best possible way through food and stories, stories of migration, survival, hope and humanity.

Yasmin Khan will be joining me to discuss her travels around the Eastern Mediterranean, meeting and eating with women in refugee camps and her stunning new book, Ripe Figs. But first, it's exam season coming up. So this summer, students will receive A-level and GCSE results based on their teacher's predictions after exams were cancelled for a second year in a row due to the pandemic. Teachers will be required to compile evidence to substantiate their predicted grades, which exam boards can demand to see either as part of a random spot check if they're concerned. Ofqual has also warned that exam boards will investigate any instances where they believe the evidence is not authentic. Ministers have insisted that

this year's grading plan is the fairest possible system for pupils, that the government is putting its trust in teachers rather than algorithms this year. However, there are concerns that pointy elbow parents have been pressurising teachers to boost their exam grades. So to discuss this, I'm joined by Emma Irving, who works as a part-time tutor. Emma, very good morning to you. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Let's talk about your concerns for what you think might happen. Let's talk about these pointy elbowed parents as a as a tutor who's in people's homes working with uh young young people and having to answer to parents are how pushy can some of these parents be yeah so very pushy is

really the answer i think normally it comes from you know a place of concern and essentially just of course wanting the best for their children, which is really understandable, particularly after such a point, such a time of high stress for families. But a lot of the time, in my experience, I'm now seeing increasing levels of sort of scrutiny from parents, and then really encouraging you to have really hands on help with their students work because everything is now potentially going to be part of, you know, partly examined. And I've actually been sort of, you know, dismissed from a couple of jobs because I've refused to step over what I would consider to be the line between giving support and actually cheating. They sacked you? Yes. Because whatacked you? Yes.

Because what did you refuse to do? What were they expecting you to do? So one family I was working with, it was just that the student was handing in coursework and I was essentially asked to, you know, show them how to write the essay. But the way that normally it works in tutoring is I would try and identify

what makes a strong essay go through that with a student and then ask them to apply it to their own work but this particular family really wanted me to sort of you know essentially write an example essay to the essay question and for the student to then sort of tweak it so that it sounded more like it was in her words and for them to submit that and when I refused to do that and explained the fact that I felt that it was really important for the students learning that essentially she she took the work that we did together and used it in her own individual way they essentially dismissed me and the reason was given was that they wanted someone who would give more quote hands-on help so presumably they went and got a tutor who would do what they wanted them to do I mean it's a very

well-paid uh job isn't it I mean you I know you have another job as well but it's between 50 to 100 pounds an hour but with that brink comes high expectations and are you very busy yeah so I mean it's it's extraordinarily busy at the moment. There are so many requests coming in. The age seems to get younger and younger. I saw a recent request for help with a three-year-old who was trying to get into a competitive kindergarten. And yeah, even though it's very expensive to have tutors, particularly in sort of very busy cities where there's a lot of demand um there it is extremely lucrative and so really draws a lot of you know recent graduates to try and enter into that world often to supplement their you know going into a creative job. Emma I'm sure

there's lots of people like me wondering what do you tutor a three-year-old to get into a competitive kindergarten? I mean it's slightly insane it could be anything from sort of interview technique we're seeing increasing requests for help with things like self-confidence or social anxiety after the pandemic where really you're there as sort of like a young hopefully quite exciting and inspiring sort of 20 something year old who has a passion for a subject you're there to sort of try and impart some of that passion to a young student. But yeah, so increasing requests, particularly with very young students, just to sort of try and work on their social skills. But it really can vary massively from very, very specific

requests, things like, you know, how to work on sentence structure in a particular essay in a particular subject, right the way through to those very vague requests, like how you, you know, can work on a child's self-confidence. I'm going to bring in Richard Sheriff, who's Executive Head Teacher of Harrogate Grammar School and President of the Association of School and College Leaders. Morning, Richard. I mean, you have been quoted as saying you feared parents with pointy elbows and lawyer friends would push for better grades, as well as obviously all the tutoring extra tutoring to try and get their children uh over the line um how likely do you think this is going to

happen now that we've got teachers who are going to be grading pupils this year uh with for a levels and gcses that sort of middle class pointy elbowed parents are going to be as you've described them are going to be actually putting a lot of pressure on teachers what are your concerns well well first of all um the pointy elbows and lawyer friends i just uh i wish i numbered myself just to say that it wasn't a kind of pejorative term about them rather that it wish we wish all children had the same access to pointy elbows and lawyer friends because the point i was making is the gap between those and that have not it could be made wider by this i've never criticized any parent whatever they do to try and make their child successful in life they do understand that but when it comes to actually putting pressure on teachers to change grades or work outside the guidance and that's that's a real problem

what i can reassure people of so is that there's some really good systems in place this year and if someone was to be pressurising a teacher to change grades or put them up or put them down whatever that's malpractice under the exam code as defined by Ofqual the regulator so there's ways and means of dealing with that and there is quality assurance in place to try and make sure it doesn't happen. Can you outline what evidence is going to be used to determine these grades? How are they going to be collected and substantiated? Yeah, each of the centres has to produce a policy document saying exactly how it will do this. So every head teacher, as I said, head of centre has to be responsible for this. And laid out by the regulator is what you have to have in that

statement and that goes all the way through what kind of evidence you use which will be a range of evidence over the course of the time they've taught testing them or assessing them and what they have done not what they haven't done you'll be asked to show what evidence that is over time and then you'll be asked to say what process you've done to verify the evidence in school so you've it's been more than one teacher can make the just to make the judgment there's at least two teachers then it's verified say by head of faculty or department and then the head teacher themselves will verify that that evidence is correct all that goes on and then there's a quality assurance by the board themselves who will collect in all the statements of the schools and say is that is

that school really following the guidance exactly if they're not we'll be called and we'll be asked to explain the guidance and adjust it if necessary and change our practice so that's the next set of checks after that when the grades go in will also be looked at in terms of there'll be randomized attempts to look at each centre to see what's going on and also a spot to check on where you think they're slightly anomalous where a centre perhaps has put in grades that are way beyond what was achieved before which might be absolutely right because they're a better cohort perhaps but it needs looking at so all those systems of checks and balances have been put in place to ensure that teachers' grades are realistic, sensible,

and children and adults can be confident with them. And how will you be protecting teachers from demanding parents and their expectations? I think that is a real worry. But we know that most parents are really reasonable and sensible, and that we've had a tremendous support for the teaching profession during the pandemic from parents absolutely amazing and they've I think really appreciated the efforts that teachers have put into making sure education's continued so I think we hope that those will be your small number and I think when parents understand and this is really

important like programs like this understand all the all the checks and balances there to make sure that we do this right together. Hopefully we'll get behind us. When somebody doesn't and they overstep that line, then as we described, we've got processing systems in place to do that. And headteachers would be, I think, very reluctant indeed to pressure from any individual parent or student because it would affect the outcomes in the whole of that centre. And of course, Richard, you've got to ensure that you're not overly lenient or overly harsh. So how will you guard against any prejudice or subconscious bias that

teachers might hold against, say, naughty pupils? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that's one of the risks. I just say that Ofqual have issued guidance on this, on subconscious bias, and it's a really good document, actually, that goes through all the different kinds of subconscious. And even myself, I think it's a fairly experienced person who's worked with examiners for a long time, looking through that list and it's quite, you know, the halo effect, you know, that can be in there, just making judgments on the quality of the writing rather than the content. All that's covered in there, and I think teachers should be trained. This really interesting phrase, I've heard, the poverty of expectation, the teachers just

expect certain children. If you're a middle-class child from a certain background, you're already, the teachers presume that you're going to do better than another child. Yeah, absolutely. And those are dangers. But I genuinely think that all teachers, they're professionals in this. Assessment is what they do and they train to do.

All schools will be doing further training that's been provided by both the awarding bodies, exam boards and Ofqual and JCQ, who organises on behalf of the exam boards, to make sure that all teachers are really aware of those unconscious bias issues and can assess effectively

and fairly for all children. And I would also say, finally, that teachers are only too aware of issues to do with social justice, poverty and differential learning loss. And they will make allowances for those in a professional way within the framework they've been given. Richard, whilst I've got you on the programme,

we've been talking, there's huge coverage about rape culture in schools this week. And this must be a huge concern for you, as it is for all teachers up and down the land. How difficult is it to manage the culture and these allegations? And how will we implement some kind of anti-sexism plan? I think it's just genuinely distressing to read those stories and hear those things talked about schools. And, you know, I'll be honest, as a headteacher for the last just almost 20 years, you know, I don't recognise that culture. But that, you know, again, we've got to be careful just because we've not seen or experienced that it does exist.

We need to do what's being done, which is to investigate this thoroughly to make sure that, you know, the NSPCC are working on this. It's really good they're doing so. Safeguarding is the first and most important duty of every head teacher in the land, every school leader, every teacher has a responsibility. And a culture of safeguarding exists in all properly run schools. I believe the vast majority of schools are properly run.

If things go wrong, we need to be open and honest about it and make sure we change how we practice. And yes, this is a really complex issue that involves not just schools, but society as a whole. And we need to look at it in that way, not just focus too much on schools, but look at the broader issues affecting young people that, 84844. Or you can always email the programme by going to our website. Now, I promised you food, travel and stories of survival, hope and humanity. And I'm delighted that human rights campaigner turned author and broadcaster Yasmin Khan joins me now to talk about her beautiful new book, Ripe Figs. And Yasmin, welcome. It really is beautiful. You made me smile, cry and feel very hungry whilst I was looking through this. What inspired you to write about food borders

and the refugee crisis in the Eastern Mediterranean, which is what this cookbook is all about? Hello, Yasmin. Oh, well, we can't hear from Yasmin at the moment uh but we will uh mute are you on mute there Yasmin oh yeah classic classic zoom scenario there we go she's with us uh it's gorgeous Yasmin welcome to Woman's Hour um where did the inspiration where did the idea for for Ripe Figs come from well the premise behind all my work is that food is a really powerful vehicle for telling stories about both ourselves and the world around us and you

know in recent years uh as we've as i've seen kind of politicians on all sides of the atlantic really um scapegoat migrants and refugees i wanted to write a book that would humanise the stories of why people are forced to move. And in my mind, food is just the best way to do that. You know, food is like a language. It tells the story of who we are, where we came from, our heritage, and often where we're going. And, you know, you've taken us to the Eastern Mediterranean to, you know, take us to Turkey, Cyprus, Greece. I mean, in everyone's minds, you know, holiday destinations, but you're giving us a very different experience of the reality of life and the stories, the day-to-day life of these places through the book, haven't you?

Absolutely. Look, you know, the book does a variety of things. You know, on the one hand, you know, at a time when foreign holidays probably elude us, you know, I do hope it's going to take readers on a journey through the beautiful sun-drenched islands filled with olive groves and citrus trees and gorgeous shimmering kind of turquoise blue waters. But it also tells the story of the refugee crisis that's unfolded there. You know, in the last five years, that region has seen the biggest movement of people since the Second World War, you know, with 5 million people predominantly fleeing the conflict in Syria, but also wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, you know, political situations in Yemen and Iran. And what I did for the book is that I cooked and shared meals with people in refugee camps, human rights activists, you know, people from diverse backgrounds and try to get to grips with what I think is one of the key questions of our time,

which is how in the 21st century can we update our concepts of borders, identity and migration so that people can move both in dignity, but also safely? You meet some incredible people through the book book and I will talk about a few of them and lots of women that you meet but a couple that really struck me were Nikos and Katarina. Tell us about those two. I mean I tell you what one of the best things about this project was how it really restored my faith in humanity. There is a lot of humanity throughout the book actually. Thank you, thank you. That was my intention you know, I think that we don't, there's this old proverb that I love, which is that an enemy is just a person whose story you haven't heard yet. And I really wanted to share as many of these human stories as possible. So Nikos and Katerina,

this gorgeous Greek couple, you know, they were, he was a fisherman. She ran a restaurant on the Greek island of Lesbos one year, a few years ago now, 2015, I think. One day Nikos was out at sea and he suddenly saw this boat coming in. And, you know, people were on the boat and they clambered onto shore. And he said to them, where have you come from? And they replied that they were from Syria and they were fleeing the war. And he went back home and told his partner, his wife, about this. And, you know, to cut a very long story short, over the course of a year, this couple were so moved by the stories of the refugees that they met that they completely changed their restaurant,

turned it into a centre called Home for All, where every day they would serve meals on beautiful tables with white linen tablecloths and proper cutlery to the people in the refugee camps nearby who were, you know, literally surviving in the most horrendous conditions, you know, in very degrading and unsanitary and unsafe conditions. And the whole premise of their work was to try and, through sharing food, restore this semblance of dignity, but also generosity and hospitality, because we all know that breaking bread with another human being is one of the oldest forms of human connection. And that's what they were trying to do with their with their organisation. And for you, actually, it's very interesting because of your own background, you talk about,

you know, memories of your own childhood, You have a Pakistani father and an Iranian mother and people coming to your home and conversations about politics. You know, this must have really taken you back. This is obviously a very personal book, this for you. It was, you know, look, I come from a family of both migrants and refugees. You know, I've got family members who were fortunate enough to claim political asylum in this country because their lives were at risk because of where they originated from. I've got other family members who've paid illicit smugglers to carry them over the hills of Turkey because their lives depended on it. And my own family, my own parents are economic migrants. And for me, it was a personal book because I think what gets lost in this debate around migration and, know certainly you know hearing Priti Patel's announcements last week you know this idea that there is a separation between a legal and an illegal human being is just ridiculous to me it

doesn't make any sense you know the fact that in in the in 2000 in this year we we claim people are illegal because they simply are trying to you you know, move for their own safety, whereas a wealthy person is very free to cross borders. You know, Cyprus was the greatest example of that for the book, because, you know, I was speaking to refugees on one hand who, you know, were crossing choppy waters in small boats, risking their lives to get to Cyprus and then put in a camp. And then on the other hand, if you've got two million euros, you can invest in Cyprus and get a European passport. We have a complete breakdown of what it means to be human within that context. Actually, staying with Cyprus, you describe it as being like a microcosm of how man-made borders can create xenophobia, division and conflicts. What did you mean by that? Absolutely. I mean, it's fascinating. I really deep dive into Cyprus in the book because it is an island that is divided into two, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and then Cyprus in

the, sorry, I've got the name wrong, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus in the north and then the Republic of Cyprus in the south. And this is a legacy of British colonialism, really, and ethnic divisions that were stoked up during that time. You know, Cyprus is an island which over the last few thousands of years has been occupied and conquered by many empires. And as a result, the food culture there, but also the culture of life there is this medley of influences, which sadly now is broken down through really, you know, artificial man-made borders. And I guess

that is my other point with the book that, you know, nation states are very modern constructs, and we've kind of decided that creating these artificial lines across lands suddenly, you know, makes other people different to us. But that just simply isn't true. You know, the reality is... Especially in the area that you were in, this eastern Mediterranean area, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, the borders have been moving around, haven't they? Totally. The borders of the eastern Med are as fluid as they are contested over the last few thousands of years. And I guess, you know, what I really wanted to start people thinking about

with the book is that actually we don't have a migration crisis. For the whole of human history, our species has moved for our survival. It has just been part of our pattern. And with the climate crisis escalating, you know, the World Bank predicts that we're going to have about 150 million climate refugees by 2050. This issue of how we deal with the movement of people is only going to get more serious. And, you know, in my mind, there's no better place to have these challenging conversations than over the dinner table. So I hope the book really sparks those conversations.

It really, really will, because you do have these beautiful chapters where you talk about, you know, meeting people and the stories that we're learning about the women, predominantly women that you talk to. And then these fabulous, delicious, sun-kissed recipes that the book is all about. Something else that really struck me that I really want to talk to you about, whilst I've got you on the program, Yasmin, is that right at the beginning of the book, you talk about arriving in Athens two weeks after having a miscarriage, which I'm so sorry to read about. But, you know, as someone who has also spoken openly about miscarriage, because I realised it's such a taboo and it's never mentioned, I just wondered why you felt it was important to put it into the book. Well, I actually had three miscarriages through the course of writing the book, literally from the week I signed my book contract to just a month before I handed the book

in. And like you, after my first miscarriage, I struggled so much because of the lack of support I found both within our health services, but also just within our society. And I really felt that I wanted to do the small thing that I could to kind of try and break down some of the taboo around talking about this issue, because I think so many women suffer in silence around a whole bunch of reproductive issues. And, you know, I think there's this trait in modern food and travel writing that, you know, it's like, hey, look, I'm in a market, I'm having the best time and like, isn't travel amazing? And like, we're posting these Instagram pictures of ourselves just living our best lives. But that isn't always true. And, you know, one of the things that really helped me over the last few years was finding solace in the kitchen. And

I think lockdown has all definitely showed most of us that, you know, we can find great comfort in the foods that we cook for ourselves. And, you know, during writing this book, that was true for both the refugees and migrants that I spoke to, but also for me going through what was undoubtedly the most challenging few years of my life. Yasmin, it really is a beautiful book and I can't wait to get cooking from it. So well done. And thank you for talking to us this morning on Woman's Hour. It's called Ripe Figs and it really is full of hope, humanity and delicious looking food. If that's your thing, then grab a copy. Now, if you missed Woman's Hour this week, don't forget you can catch up with us on the podcast. Yesterday, Emma was speaking to Hollywood icon Sharon Stone and she didn't hold back you can listen to the full interview with Sharon on BBC Sounds where she discusses her childhood

making her way in Hollywood and that basic instinct scene and there's been a huge reaction to the reports by the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities which was released on Wednesday that says that while racism and racial injustice do still exist, geography, family influence, social and economic backgrounds, culture and religion all have a greater impact on life chances, it found that there is no institutional racism in the UK. Well, what was your reaction on hearing the findings? Is the report something you agree with? As a woman of colour, what's your experience of day-to-day life in the UK

and the experiences of your family, your friends? We would love to hear from you. So whatever your reaction was, get in touch, let us know. You can text us 84844. You can contact us via social media or send us an email by going to our website. Now, on Bank Holiday Monday, we explore chocolate and its historic links with exploitation and imperialism and find out what life is like for some of the women who work on cacao farms.

We meet women on the factory floor producing chocolate here in Britain and discuss the relationship between women and advertising. So why do people think that women are obsessed with chocolate? This whole idea that women are obsessed with chocolate goes back a lot longer. You can trace that back to the 17th century, after the Spanish invaded and colonised the New World, where, of course, chocolate had been enjoyed for thousands of years as a medicine, as a ceremonial drink, and also as an energy drink.

Chocolate was given to soldiers going off to battle and fed to women who were in childbirth to sustain them through labor. And Europeans, when they invaded the New World, really didn't know what to make of chocolate. They were a bit confused, didn't understand it, were quite suspicious of it. And that extended to the people who made the chocolate drinks and who administered the chocolate as medicine, which of course was women. So you started to see these negative stories emerge about women and their relationship with chocolate, you know, drifting across the Atlantic, including this suggestion that they weren't able to control their cravings. So there's one quite famous account written by an English clergyman who talks about a group of Spanish women in the town of Chiapas

who were so addicted to chocolate that they ignored an order by the bishop to stop drinking it during mass. and he was saying that these women were prepared to risk excommunication hellfire such was their addiction and ruthless pursuit of chocolate so you've got that kind of idea that women were basically addicted to it in the 18th century doctors in the new world also blame chocolate for outbreaks of hysteria what they've described as hysteria. They particularly targeted an order of nuns with that. And there was also this idea that if you enjoyed chocolate, and I'm talking about in the New World, you'd somehow gone a bit native.

You'd lost your cultural identity. And that, of course, was not viewed in a positive way in Europe. That was food writer Sue Quinn, author of Cacao and Exploration of Chocolate. To hear the programme in full, join Andrea Catherwood on Monday at 10am and you're still getting in touch with your happy places. Oh, very nice photo someone sent, which is very good on the radio, isn't it, of the sea while swimming in Dorset

and that's from Loving Covid Kids. And Simon says 1997 was his happy place Annabelle Carty says her happy place is in her dressing gown oh and somebody says you certainly brought some Mediterranean cheer to our house this morning we aim to please now this week the organisers of Glastonbury Festival announced a one-off live streaming event in May the bands will be performing at Worthy Farm but the audience will be at home around the world. However, there are plenty of festivals planned in person. Once social distancing laws, hopefully, are lifted this summer,

many of them have now revealed their lineups, and overall, they're still featuring majority male artists, particularly those headlining. Here's a flavour of some of the women who have bagged prominent slots. But now I can't dismiss, it's killing me. The hardest thing, you are not addicted to me. I'm the only thing you should need. You should be addicted to me. The hardest thing I am too selfless to leave

You're the only thing that I need You should be addicted to me Why do I keep dreaming of you Why do I Keep dreaming of you Is it all Because of my rebel heart Is it all Because of my rebel heart?

Is it all because... There we go. You just created one of my happy places, just like that. Beautiful. That was Haim, Georgia Smith and First Aid Kit. They're three female acts that will be performing live on main stages at UK music

events this summer, but they are still in the minority. Well, I'm joined now by two women who want to change that. Campaigner and founder of The F List, Vic Bain and Maxi Gedge, UK project manager of Key Change, an initiative set up by the PRS Foundation to encourage better gender representation in music. Morning to you both. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Vic, it's 2021. What's going on? Exactly. I don't know what's going on.

And I think we can do better. I was really hoping that when things reopened this summer, we would be building back better. And that means having more diversity on our lineups. And unfortunately, with a lot of the major festivals, that's not what we're seeing. Why is there such a huge disparity? Is it because audience don't want to see women? Is it because it's still men who operate at the top?

Well, I don't believe that audiences don't want to see women. Festival audiences are now majority female. The latest research shows that just a few years ago, 60% of all of the major festival attendees were women. And the audience research that I know of is that they are wanting to see more women on festival stages. So what I think we're experiencing is the historical context

the music industry has always been dominated by by men both in the uh the executive workforce and uh on on the stages and but they're just not catching up in time um and who are some of the big names that are dominating this year? Headlining acts. Yeah, male acts. For the men? Yeah. Well, you know, I noticed Duran Duran, which is great, you know, but a band from the 80s.

How about having some, you know, top female 80s stars as well? How about having Annie Lennox? Annie Lennox would be amazing. Banana Rama. can we start the bananarama campaign please on woman's hour thank you exactly we've got liam gallagher david getter stereophonics why does it matter who's headlining vick well i think it makes for for better creativity more diversity nearly 50 percent of all music performance degree students are women nearly 50

percent and yet when we go to these festivals and see that it's 10 or 20 percent women on stage why are women being given the same opportunities that the male musicians are let's bring maxie in to see what she thinks about all of this why aren't they given the opportunities they must be there some ways are there more women than in previous, but they're just further down on the bill? What's your experience, Maxie? We see that in the entry levels of the music industry and in kind of grassroots scenes that, yes, things are much more diverse. But the reality is that women and gender minorities face barriers. And so they're not allowed to progress and get onto these stages and take up those headliner slots on music festivals.

And what are those barriers? I mean, they're nuanced and there are many. And I think Vic's PhD is exploring the barriers that women and gender minorities face in the music industry. So she may be able to input here. But I i mean it's kind of a lack of role models um it's a very real glass ceiling um a kind of um a culture that does not empower and um provide safe spaces for women and gender minorities is a very urgent issue that needs addressing. But what's your own experience, Maxi? You're a drummer. You're in the music industry.

What's your own experience? My own experience is that in order to create empowering environments, then I needed to create them myself. I grew up in Norwich, which is very disconnected from the traditional music industry and networks are incredibly valuable in the music industry and unfortunately there is a bit of a boys club that still exists and does not like to share knowledge and information and progression routes and what Key Change is about is really challenging those norms and encouraging all music organisations to

take positive action to make positive change. Yeah so Vic as Maxia said you're doing the PhD about it what are the barriers and how are we going to how are we going to bust them down? Well some some of the barriers include well plain sexism. There's unconscious bias, I think, at play here. There's a lack of role models. There's harassment for women, sexual harassment, technophobia, where women, you know, aren't empowered in their own music careers. There's the motherhood penalty.

There's lots and lots of barriers but all of them are absolutely able to be overcome with just a bit of a bit of will I think an initiative from festival organizers Maxie was talking about positive action the F list for music has over 5,000 listings of UK female musicians who are able to play on festival stages right now. And why did you set it up? Why did you decide, right, I'm going to just bring in the F list or I'm going to bring all these 5,000 female artists together and put them on a list?

Why did you do that? Because I was tired of reading in magazine and newspaper article interviews of festival organisers saying, well, we've asked all of the women we've asked them all or they weren't available uh you know or women don't play guitars and you know silly silly comments like this so i you know i collected all of the data and published it and women can sign up and create their own listings as well so that it's a freely publicly available directory that festival and event organizers can can go on and search right now. And there's just no excuses to say that there aren't female musicians available.

There really are. And if the image is that bleak for women, then where does that leave women of colour? I mean, the intersectionality is just another added dimension, isn't it? Maxi? Absolutely. Or either of you, Vic? Yes, absolutely.

And I mean, I think that acknowledging that intersectional, those intersectional barriers is incredibly important. Ethnicity-wise, looking at the festivals this year, I mean, it's kind of white, able-bodied, cis, straight men that dominate. And that is devastating for everyone everyone it means we don't have diverse perspectives um in our brilliant music scene and we know that they exist as Vic says we have we have um lists and um databases um that prove that these people are out there but

um we need more um music organizations to take responsibility and scratch below the surface to find that talent and and raise it um and put it on our stages um and it will um and that will have a positive impact on everyone and surely and surely it doesn't reflect Vic what people are listening to because people listen to a broad range of music and a lot of these um um festivals are sold out before the the lineups even announced so it's a real opportunity isn't it for festivals to really mix up the lineups and diversify them exactly they should be showing an example using a bit of creativity and imagination on their on their. Audiences and fans are demanding diversity.

The outrage on social media this week is absolutely, it's been great, you know, because it shows the strength of feeling that people have towards this. These festivals who don't get with the picture and update and start, you know, programming creatively are going to be left behind. Maxi, who's getting it right?

Has anyone got it right? Yeah, there are so many awesome UK festivals that are achieving greater parity. I mean, Wild Paths Festival in Norwich, Focus Wales, Blue Dot Festival, Manchester Jazz Festival. This is not about excluding anyone. It's about taking responsibility and making sure that your talent pools are diverse

and ultimately making sure that your artists are responsibly sourced. I mean, we care about that in all other sectors. And that's because it's sustainable and because it's the future. We have a responsibility to adapt. And I honestly believe that the festivals who don't adapt and take that action towards equality will get left behind. Okay, well, thank you very much for speaking to me, Vic Bain and Maxi Gedge.

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