Woman's Hour - Summer wardrobe essentials, Actor Jill Halfpenny, Author Cash Carraway

Episode Date: July 12, 2019

The dress historian Amber Butchart has been finding out about the history of some of the summer wardrobe staples we all buy or dig out every year - today, sunglasses.Jill Halfpenny on her new role in the TV drama Dark Money. She plays Sam, the mother of up-and-coming young actor Isaac who accepts a pay-off to keep quiet about the abuse he suffered at the hands of a predatory Hollywood VIP.Cash Carraway recounts her experience of temporary housing, refuges, violence, loneliness, forced self-employment, sex work and food banks in her memoir Skint Estate, about her life as a working-class woman and mother living in poverty in Britain.And we have a round-up of the week’s news with Joy Lo Dico, columnist at the Evening Standard, Lara Prendergast, assistant editor of The Spectator, and writer and comedian Nuala McKeever.Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. It's the 12th of July, 2019. Today, we look at Dark Money. It's the new BBC show. It stars Jill Halfpenny. It's all about non-disclosure agreements and the really unpleasant side of success in Hollywood. That's on the programme today.

You can hear what Jill thinks about working on that programme and about the ideas behind it. Amber Butchart, the fashion historian, talks about the history of sunglasses. And we'll have a chat too about the main news events of the week. But we started with an interview with Cash Carraway, author of a really interesting new memoir called Skint Estate. Now, this really is unflinching, this memoir.

It tells you all sorts of stuff about experiences you may frankly never have thought about or cared to think about. Temporary housing, living in refuges, working in the, I suppose you could loosely say, the outer reaches of the sex industry and peep shows in Soho, loneliness and using food banks, what that's like. So Cash Carraway was on the programme today. Cash has talked about her memoir in terms of it being gonzo from the gutter. I don't feel there's enough voices actually speaking directly from poverty. So that was the reason I started writing it. For listeners who don't know anything about you, just tell us, tell us a little bit about

your backstory. Well, I'm a working class woman. I fell pregnant in 2010. And I fled domestic violence whilst pregnant with my daughter and ended up in a women's refuge and from that refuge I watched David Cameron walk into 10 Downing Street and form a coalition and I suddenly wanted to become political. You'd never been political before? Not particularly I'd gone I'd marched against the war in Iraq but only so I could go and get drunk with my friends afterwards because it was kind of the thing to do. But I'd voted, but I hadn't really put much thought into the voting process. But I knew when I was in that refuge that I was in trouble under a conservative government.

Was it coalition government? Sorry, coalition government. Yeah. I was scared and I wasn't able to vote in that election because um because we were living in a temporary address we weren't given the right none of the women were given the right to vote so it became more important to me the fact I'd been silenced during that election um I started to think about how I'd been silenced kind of the bigger picture of being silenced. You were effectively disenfranchised, but deeply vulnerable to politicians and to their policies.

Let's talk a bit about then about how you survived and the decisions you had to make about how you and your daughter were going to get through. You've done all sorts of different jobs. Yes. But you know what I'm going to ask you about first, which is your time when you were pregnant, working in Soho. Yes. In a peep show, is that? Yeah, I worked in a peep show for the entire time I was pregnant. It seemed like a natural choice to me, because I'd been a stripper in my 20s and I knew I wasn't going to be able to work in a glitzy strip club with my you know growing belly the high class punters just wouldn't put up with that but in a peep show it turns out they'll put up with anything in fact it was my change in form was almost enjoyed it was like people would come in almost to

get an update on my pregnancy what is a peep show okay so they're all different but the one I was in it had two booths what a girl in each booth and it was split into four sections so you'd have four you could have up to four men at any time and they'd slot the money into the into the um you know like a like an arcade kind of slot and then um like a letterbox size hole would open and um from there you'd see their eyes and they would just spy on you. Ideally, you'd be dancing naked and looking very sexualised and you're enjoying yourself. But some of the things, sometimes I'd be puking into a bin or reading a book or sleeping. I just kind of lived my pregnancy there on view yeah it seems incredible

that sometimes you'd be asleep and it didn't it didn't bother the men in particular they my peephole was very popular um in fact i would if you if you if you um if a customer would stay for would slot two pounds in for more than 15 minutes, then you'd start earning bonus. And I often would earn bonus more than the beautiful Russian beauty next to me. The detail in this book is unsparing, and you do talk in great detail about, let's be honest, about the smell of the peep show and about the sorts of men

and the different sorts of men who would come during the course of the day. But what is the theme really throughout your book? about the sorts of men and the different sorts of men who would come during the course of the day. But what is the theme really throughout your book is the nuances, the grey areas in life. So these geezers who'd come to the Peep Show, people listening now will be making judgements about them, I dare say. And me. And possibly you. But then they would bring you presents.

They brought you stuff for the baby. They brought me stuff for the baby. Somebody brought in a really expensive bugaboo pram i think they're like a grand um sleep suits um a used breast pump um everything that you would need to set up a nursery um customers brought in it was like they almost connected with me in some way that they cared and which is weird because if you're just seeing these orgasming eyes and then suddenly they they see you as a real person it's um and you see them as relatively real and at that point i did yeah yeah um throughout the book too uh are stories about actually not just how tough it is to be poor but really ironically in a way how expensive it is to be poor because you are ripe to be ripped off aren't you? Yeah well I mean rents become impossible to navigate in London

when you're poor and when I say I was poor I wasn't actually I was in receipt of benefits I'm still in receipt of universal credit now I was working I was working constantly for minimum wage zero zero-hour jobs. And when you're working those kind of jobs, it's impossible to meet rent. So something's going to give, so you're going to have to use a food bank or you're going to get evicted at some point. It's impossible. And I think with the book, I wanted to shine a light on the complexities of poverty, that it isn't just a case of you're scrounging or you can't be bothered to work or you're incapable of working.

There's so much more to it than that. It's just a constant juggle. Give our listeners an idea then of how much you would need to get together to put down a deposit on, let's say, a one-bedroom flat somewhere in London. In London, you'd need like five grand because you're going to need, well, when you're poor, you're likely to have bad credit. Therefore, you're going to need a guarantor. If you don't have a guarantor, they may ask for six months rent in advance, in which case you'd need up to 10 grand if you're including moving costs, the deposit and the six months rent in advance.

So that did happen to me at one point. I was accepted for one property, really run down, horrible property. And I paid, I was ready to one property really run down horrible property and um I paid I was I was ready to pay my two months rent and at the last minute they said actually you're going to need to pay two months rent plus six months rent in advance it's impossible absolutely impossible to do at one point you outline the number of estate agents you go to is it the 84th it was the 82nd one that um found happened to to find me a place and you're constantly you're trying to remain dignified but you're constantly begging so it's completely it's constantly eroding away at your self-esteem um but you just have to keep going what other choice

do you have and you were a single mother which also marks you out in a very particular way. Well, immediately estate agents don't really want to bother themselves with you. I mean, there were times I was always pretending I had a husband. I've got all these rich husbands who work in Dubai. And then suddenly they take you seriously. So, yeah, I think the thing with poverty is that you're always having...

You're either on your knees or you're having to lie to get by. Lying about having a husband, lying about how much money you're earning, lying about a landlord reference. You're always constantly having to provide all this information to prove that you're legitimate. So you've said you want to give a voice to women like you.

But I wonder whether by doing that and by expressing it so eloquently, you are encouraging people like me and perhaps some of the people listening now to question your authenticity precisely because you are able to do it and able to write so well yeah that's interesting i imagine whether people are going oh i don't know whether i believe this i think that working class women are constantly under scrutiny or the working class generally are constantly under scrutiny um you know isn't it sad that because i'm able to write a book that people would doubt my story. You know, the suggestion being that working class people are stupid. But if you look at the way the benefit system is set up, like, for example, I'm on Universal Credit now.

Yeah, I do work. You're constantly having to prove yourself. You know, how much money are you earning? Are you actually looking for work? Why are you not earning enough? So the fact that you're constantly being questioned by authority that kind of trickles down into society where you know i guess working class people are actually if you're not if your voice isn't heard often enough and then suddenly someone comes out with a story people are going to question it

because it's something exotic it It's something completely unusual. So I'm used to not being believed because I've been part of the benefits system for so long. And you also, at one point, you're living, for reasons that people can find out when they, or if they read the book, you're living in Maida Vale alongside a lot of rock stars and their partners. It's at this point that you set up what is actually a fake instagram account of a it wasn't instagram instagram wasn't around then it was uh it was a um it was a blog a blog sorry forgive me but you were doing a kind of boden mummy blog weren't you yeah i um i wanted to fit in like i thought motherhood would give me a chance to fit in i've always felt like an outsider.

And then I saw that the kind of acceptable version of motherhood was Bowdoin dresses, Argers, you know, weekends away at Soho House. And I wanted a part of it, you know. I wanted to fit in. So, you know, I changed my name to all the people locally who knew me changed your voice as well changed my voice changed my name said my name was Camilla you know I'm not proud you know I'm not I'm not here bragging about that I'm ashamed I'm ashamed I live in a constant feeling of cloud of shame and I think a lot of working class people will relate to that um but yeah I

just wanted to fit in I've always I've always just wanted to fit in and it's hard to fit in when you're working class really interesting thank you very much cash thank you for having me for coming on really appreciate it thank you skin to state um to put it mildly gives you an insight into uh the sort of life that most of us um haven't i suspect most people listening haven't lived certainly some of the really tough times you've been through uh i very much hope most people haven't been through them, but thank you very much. Thank you, Jane. And I think there'll be more to come from you

because there's a possibility of more stuff based around your memoir. Yeah, hopefully, yeah. Fingers crossed. I won't give too much away. Yeah, there is more to come from Cash Carraway. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Cheers. Now, maternal mortality rates in Britain are low. Fewer than 10 out of every 100,000 pregnant women in this

country die in pregnancy or around childbirth. But black women in Britain, did you know this, they are five times more likely to die as a result of complications in pregnancy than white women. This is from a report that came out at the end of last year, but actually didn't get the attention it should have got. We're going to try and put that right in an edition of Woman's Hour on Monday and we're just going to share a little bit of Monday's programme with you now. Listen to the voice of Janine. So my little boy was born, he was very small, he was five pounds ten. I also lost a lot of blood so we were told that we needed to be kept in to monitor me and to monitor him and And on the ward, I discharged myself because of how bad things were. Basically, no one came to check in on us.

I was offered water periodically, asked if he was feeding and that was it. And opposite us, there was a white couple. They had nurses and midwives come in and, you know, kind of talk to them. They were sat with them, just having a general chat on an iPad, kind of recommending different like breast pumps and things like that and me and my husband had absolutely no one say anything to us other than offer his water um because i'd lost a lot of blood i was feeling very woozy there's one point i was sat on the bed holding my son and i literally felt like the room was turning and i had to give him to my husband because i didn't feel safe to continue to hold

him feeling in such a state it basically got later and I think it was supposed to be like 10 o'clock where you know visitors had to leave and I didn't feel safe to be alone with my little boy because of how bad I was feeling and the fact that we'd had no support literally we just got offered water a handful of times and that was it no one did any kind of checks on my son and no one did any checks on me at all. So it got to midnight and my husband was still there. I was really scared that he was going to get asked to leave. So I decided to discharge myself. Really important stuff.

So I hope you can make the time to listen to Monday's edition of Woman's Hour. Jenny is presenting on Monday. That really does sound an important programme. On Tuesday, I'll be live in Liverpool for the World Netball Cup. And on Thursday, Jenny's guests include Professor Dame Sally Davis, the Chief Medical Officer of England.

She is preparing to step down from that post at the end of the year. She's always got interesting stuff to say. So Sally Davis on Woman's Hour next week. Now back to the fashion historian Amber Butchart, who's been guiding us through some summer wardrobe staples. Now on Tuesday, we had a long and very frank talk about the history of the swimsuit.

Today, sunglasses. When did they become an essential bit of summer gear? Sunglasses, the way we think of them, are really a 20th century invention. But tinted blue or green glass was being used as sort of recommended as a sight corrector from the 18th century onwards. But the relationship with the sun and actual protection very much comes in the 20th century. And especially things like developments in technology, we get the rise of aviation, we get the rise of car ownership. All these things require protection from the sun's glare.

And also, of course, they become incredibly fashionable. The seaside holiday, whether it's at the Riviera or whether it's Palm Beach, is very aspirational. Or Clacton. Or Clacton, or Southend, Margate, or Blackpool. All of these places become very fashionable. There must also be a link to wanting a tan. And that's why it's very much a 20th century phenomenon. Up until that point, we have this very strong relationship between social class and tanning. So a tan is a sign that you're a labourer,

essentially a rural labourer. This all shifts as we have the Industrial Revolution. More people working, people are working inside, in factories. We begin to have more leisure time, especially sort of towards the end of the 19th century. We get the expansion of the railways. This idea of the coastal trip becomes very de rigueur to maintain a fashionable lifestyle. And along with it, the suntan. So the 20s and the 30s are the moment where we really see the suntan becoming fashionable.

It's written about in fashion magazines. It's, you know, there are specific sort of products created to help you with your suntan. The dangers of suntanning are not quite yet known in the way that we know them today. And so you wear your sunglasses instead of wearing a parasol. So you're not protecting yourself, your entire body from the sun anymore. You're just kind of accessorising your suntan essentially. Pre-war then, was anybody in Britain routinely wearing sunglasses? We have this revolution in plastics in the 1920s and 30s,

so things become much more affordable. We have a woman on the cover of Vogue in 1939 wearing sunglasses. So that implies that certainly sort of fashionable society women are starting to wear them. And this is kind of filtering down to the rest of us. And film stars, they were presumably already rocking that sunglasses look. It very quickly becomes associated with ideas of stardom. Now sunglasses are really interesting because there's this idea that you can put them on and somehow become anonymous, you can somehow hide. But of course, it kind of has the opposite effect, really, it kind of becomes associated with stardom in this way. There are a number of really key

sunglasses moments in films, especially Breakfast at Tiffany's, 1961. Audrey Hepburn as Holly Golightly wearing her very, very famous sunglasses. Those sunglasses were actually by a British company called Oliver Goldsmith, which has been around since the 1920s and still going strong today. You can actually buy replicas of those exact Manhattan sunglasses that she was wearing in that film. She wore them for a number of other films as well. There's a great Oliver Goldsmith collection in the V&A, really unusual, quite wacky sunglasses. So I'd recommend having a look at those for some inspiration. And we also get the really classic Wayfarer design in the 1950s, was really popular

in the 50s and 60s, and then became hugely popular again in the 80s after really big product placement campaigns on TV. So, you know, things like Miami Vice, Bruce Willis and Moonlighting, Tom Cruise in Top Gun, we really associate The Wayfarer with these really seminal films. And we're a bit naive in a way, they were placed in those films, weren't they? They were absolutely placed. It was a marketing decision and it worked. You know, we do still associate those sunglasses with those kinds of looks. And I think the Wayfarer especially does have a sort of classic, timeless quality to it that makes it a perennial style. I have lost count over the years of the numbers of pairs of sunglasses. I have treated it, treated them,

as a disposable annual accessory. I've never spent much money on them, but I've never kept a pair. I don't think I'm alone actually with that. I would really recommend avoiding that disposable element. Try to save the money that you would have spent on loads of different cheap pairs of sunglasses and go for a more expensive one that's better for your eyes and that will also last longer. There are also currently a number of brands that are making much more sustainable sunglasses as well. Brands like Grown Eyewear, Panda Eyewear often make them out of much more sustainable materials like bamboo. Oh, bamboo. Bamboo, exactly. And wood in general, just trying to avoid plastics as much

as possible. Amber, if you do go for a pair of glasses like that, I'd be happy to spend 15 quid on a pair of sunglasses. But how much are these? Yeah, we're definitely not talking about cheap sunglasses here. Panda sunglasses can come in at about £90, which is a lot of money. There's also a company called Modo, which use recycled stainless steel. They also plant a tree for every frame that you buy. But these are about £175, roughly, we're talking about. You've actually got a pair with you that I think you got on eBay a couple of years ago. They're very heavy.

I've worn them. Apparently, they suit me. Well, you were kind enough to say you thought they suited me. I think they do. Yeah, all right. They're quite big. They're heavy. The eye shape is pretty large yes so another

option is to buy second hand you can buy a load of amazing styles on ebay these are emmanuel khan 1970s sunglasses and i bought them a few years ago i don't think they would have cost that much certainly i would imagine under 1010. Oh, really? Because I do like a bargain on eBay. And they're really good quality, made in France, a sort of pearlescent, really big 1970s style. So they're certainly making a statement. I'll put them on now.

But you can feel in the weight that they are. I don't know who you are anymore. I'm just immediately transported to Hollywood. But you can tell by the weight of them that they are a product that's meant to be looked after and worn for a number of years rather than something disposable like the sunglasses we're used to today. She is fantastic. The fashion historian Amber Butchart.

And over the next couple of weeks, you'll hear me talking in incredible detail about caftans, espadrilles and straw hats. The caftan one I really enjoyed. I wanted to become Margot Ledbetter but then when I said that nobody actually knew what I meant which was a bit disheartening. Anyway some of our listeners will know. Now Dark Money is the new serial on BBC One. It started this week, was shown on Monday and Tuesday, the first two episodes. And you can see the next two episodes on Monday and Tuesday of next week. One of the stars is Jill Halfpenny. Welcome to the programme, Jill.

Thank you very much. Now you play Sam, who's the mother of a young lad called Isaac who has made, effectively, he's made a Hollywood film. But something went horribly wrong when he was in Hollywood working on the show. And I don't want to give too much away

because we want people to watch it if they haven't already. But tell us a little bit about the family set up. Yeah, so, you know, they're a family who are, they're struggling, they're a normal family, but they're just getting by. And like you said, you know, their son sort of is plunged into a fabulous, glossy, glamorous world of Hollywood.

And it's very exciting, but then he comes back and delivers a piece of devastating news and the family then make a decision, which it's hard if people haven't watched it because they don't want to give it away, but it's morally questionable and they then find themselves living in a world where the shame and the guilt of the decisions that they've made literally tear them apart from the inside. Yeah, I'm going to contradict myself a bit now, actually. I think we do have to tell them a bit more. Otherwise, this conversation isn't going to work.

So what has happened to this poor lad is that he has been sexually assaulted whilst he was working on the show. And then his parents do what you'd expect any parents to do. They want justice. They want something to happen. But they come up against the sheer might of, well, the Hollywood lawyers. Yeah. And, you know, the thing that they're battling against the whole time is that their son says, I don't want anyone else to know. So to go to America to then file a lawsuit, that means it becomes public.

If you go to the police and you have a crime report, then it will then be in the hands of the police. He very much wants to keep this contained and they're trying to respect his wishes. And in many ways, maybe Sam and Manny, it also suits them for no one else to know. Manny's the dad. Sam and Manny it also suits them for no one else to know Manny's the dad Sam and Manny are the mother and father yes so they end up signing an NDA yeah and NDA's non-disclosure agreements are well they have been very much in the news over the last couple of years and I suspect we'll hear much more about them what do they mean as you understand you understand the term what does it mean you can? You agree never to tell about... You agree never to talk or mention any names

or any incidents that happened at this, in particular what you're talking about. And in return, we will give you, in this case, £3 million. And it will never be mentioned again. And the £3 million in this case, as it would be in most cases, is utterly life-changing.

For a family that's been struggling, here is something, a whole new world opens up. And in the parents' heads, they're like, you know, we could give our child therapy, we could give him a brand new education, we could give him opportunities that he never dreamed of. We could give our other children the same opportunities as well. We have enough money to do this.

But as we know, you know, it's money. I mean, I think they just think this is going to be the most amazing anodyne to what's been going on. It's like, no, it isn't actually. This just makes their life way more complicated. And like I said before, the shame just destroys them. There are added complications in the family unit no one has an uncomplicated family life. Manny had an affair

when your character Sam was pregnant. Yes. So he has another son very close in age to the showbiz son who's been through this traumatic experience and there's also an elder daughter. Yeah. Who is at university she wants her own show business career and she's finding it a struggle. And I think what's good about this show is it shows all the petty jealousies, completely understandable rivalries, but it's against the backdrop of a secret that not everybody knows.

This is what I loved about the script because this is the ripple effect. And when you keep anything a secret, as we know, like whether anybody knows what is going on at all, energetically, people pick up on it. So people start acting out. The older child decides that doesn't want to live with us anymore. It becomes, you know, that becomes a really big rift in the mother and the daughter's relationship. And this is what I loved about what Levi had done with the script.

It's watching exactly like you said, what seems like petty reactions to things, but actually they're picking up on something really, really destructive. I think they know something is going on, but they can't put their finger on it. All they say is, my brother has made a lot of money and you've bought this fabulous house. Oh, well, good for you. But she doesn't know. She doesn't know.

And Sam can't tell her because she's sworn to secrecy. So you've been, how long have you been in the acting profession? Do you mind me asking? No, not at all. Since I was 10. Right. So you were that, would you have described yourself as a vulnerable young person? Most people in not most people in life thank god are decent people but this world we know

attracts a particular type of person yeah and i never felt like that when i was a child it certainly never felt like that to me in the northeast when i was 10 but i can see now i can see that you're in a world full of adults. You know, you're not, you're effectively, you are, you become an adult quite quickly because you're working. You have to be at work at a certain time. You have to do a 10 hour day. You have to stop for lunch when you're told to stop for lunch. And then you get money for it.

That's work. You know, that's not school. So it is strange when you're taken into a world like that. But certainly for me, when I was a kid, there was only ever positives. I just thought it was the most wonderful thing. But I also accept that, you know, terrible things are happening right now. Yeah. And yes, exactly. And people are now beginning to have attention drawn to the problems of the past. But also the power dynamic usually means that young women can be vulnerable to much older men. Did you ever see any of that? I never saw any of it.

But obviously looking back, I can see how easily things like that could happen. And I think that now what's really great is because we're talking about it, things like making sure, you know, you not only have a chaperone, but you maybe have your parents on set with you as well. Or there'll be a child acting coach to make sure that everything that they're doing in the scene they're comfortable with.

I just think we're giving more attention to what the children need, which can only be a good thing. Yeah. And still, of course, parents, they want their children to excel at stuff they're good at. I mean, that's human nature, isn't it? And I still think people are attracted to this industry, regardless of whether they know what goes on or not. I still think people think, oh, that's attractive. That looks glamorous. That looks fun. And, you know, they can turn a blind eye sometimes.

Because the promise of riches is still there. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much, Jill. Elaine is chastising me. You're giving the story away and I haven't watched it yet. Well, I can't win because we need to talk about it.

It was very difficult. Thank you, Elaine. It's always worth punting in your opinions, I suppose. No, I asked for them, so I've only got myself to blame. At BBC Women's Out on social media if you want to get involved. Jill, thank you very much. Thank you. And I think it's an intriguing show and continues next week, Dark Money,

at nine o'clock, isn't it? Yes. On Monday and Tuesday. You can catch up on iPlayer if you haven't seen the first two. Well, thank you. Jill is taking a production credit for Woman's Hour today, I think.

You're doing all the hard work. Thank you very much. Now, let's go through some of the big news stories and talking points of the week. Today, in the company of the writer and comedian, Nuala Makeva, she's in our studio in Dublin. We've also got with me in London, Lara Prendergast, assistant editor at The Spectator magazine,

and Joy Lodico, do apologise, columnist at the London Evening Standard. Welcome to you, Joy. Good to have you here. Nuala, let's start with you and events in Northern Ireland. I know you are from Northern Ireland, aren't you? Yes, that's right. I'm just doing a play. I'm doing a play in Dublin for two weeks. So it's kind of weird once you're out of Northern Ireland,

you forget that it's the centre of the universe, but it's been thrust back onto the centre stage this week with the fantastic news. I mean, this is such, well, it was a surprise to me. I think it's surprised a lot of people that this thing that we have campaigned in Northern Ireland for years and all the people, well done to all the people who have pushed for years to bring respect and love equality, Amnesty International here and all the groups and all the people have finally got a result. It's not completely over the finish line, but with any luck same-sex marriage will be brought onto the law books

in Northern Ireland by the end of October. And abortion as well? Yes and well a certain circumstances yes certainly the amendment to the bill in the House of Commons the other day has called for it to be decriminalised because I don't know if people know that it is still a criminal offence. She can still be sent to prison. We have a woman here who's currently, I think, being taken to court over the fact that she procured an abortion for her 15-year-old daughter and they would actually send a woman to prison for this.

So, you know, we kind of make Alabama look like swinging Vegas. You know, everybody's giving out about Alabama. You don't need to go to Alabama, come to NI. You can have nothing. We should say, of course, all's giving out about Alabama. You don't need to go to Alabama, come to NI. You can have nothing. We should say, of course, all this was happening in Westminster. This is because Stormont, the Northern Ireland Assembly, isn't sitting and hasn't been sitting for some time. Nuala, what's your take on whether it might sit

in the relatively near future? Well, it's just hilarious. I mean, nothing's ever straightforward. You've got this weird set of ironies now that the DUP, the ruling party, the biggest party, very staunch unionist, run by right wing, very conservative, mostly Christian fundamental types, are very opposed to anything that liberalises anything to do with people being gay. So same-sex marriage out, abortion out.

They all wanted Brexit. We didn't want Brexit. The Northern Ireland voted against. We voted to remain, but the DUP who claim that we should be the same as the UK and we should respect the will of the people are flagrantly ignoring the will of the people.

Let's put that point to Lara. That is interesting, Anula's point there about the DUP. They want to be like Britain some of the time. I think what's particularly interesting in this is Theresa May's response, because she's... Yeah, that wasn't quite my question. Well, the DUP, I mean, they're obviously the more socially conservative group in this, and have obviously opposed changes to same-sex marriage and abortion.

And it's been interesting watching this reaction between the DUP and Sinn Féin. You can see at the moment that there's not a huge incentive for Sinn Féin. You can see at the moment that there's not a huge incentive for Sinn Féin to restore power and stormland because if they want these new legislations to go through, they can just sit back and wait and see what happens.

So yeah, it's been an interesting discussion. Yeah, that is interesting. What do you think about that, Joy? Yes, this has got its own cliff edge of, is it October the 21st itself? There is no incentive for Sinn Féin to get back to the negotiating table with DUP. There is an incentive for the DUP at this point in time to return in order to actually exercise its power within Northern Ireland.

But we have now kind of opened up a new debate, as if there is not enough kind of high-level, highly tense, highly tense debates about abortion, same sex marriage, Brexit and so forth, which is a question of devolution and how it works in this country. We have given health and social rights to Northern Ireland and Scotland for their own use. However, the question of abortion and same sex marriage is arguably a human right and a UK right. And if they don't choose to implement that right, as they should be doing, at what point does Westminster get to lay it down on the table? It's a beautiful paradox. Stella Creasy is a fantastic thinker in many ways that she could spot the seams where things don't line up. Yes, it's a mind-boggling string of complications that we could talk about this for hours and hours. Laura you were actually about to make a point about I think neither Theresa May nor Boris Johnson voted. Yeah they both abstained and it was funny because Theresa

May earlier in the week was saying that she was an ally of the LGBT community and said she would be an ally for the rest of her life but then obviously she abstained on this so she was criticised for that. I mean it it's understandable why she abstained, because she's obviously relied on the DUP's support for the confidence and supply arrangement. And Boris Johnson as well, if he's about to become Prime Minister, will presumably be relying on their support as well. So you can see why it's a slightly tricky issue for them.

Well, yeah, we started the programme with a conversation about grey areas in the company of Cash Carrow, and we're back with all that, really. If only life were simple, we wouldn't have much to talk about, would we? Let's move on to the thoughts of Stella McCartney, fashion designer, of course, hugely successful woman. She has said this week, I wouldn't change my bra every day, and I don't just chuck stuff into a washing machine

because it's been worn. I'm incredibly hygienic myself, but I'm not a fan of dry cleaning or any cleaning, really. OK, over to you, Joy. Cleaning. Cleaning. Well, I would refer you to Catherine Whitehorn in The Observer in 1963, where she sort of it was its kind of own watershed moment in British history, where a woman wrote the first personal column and she asked the question in Sluts, have you ever taken anything back out of the dirty laundry basket because it has become relatively a cleaner thing?

Now, let us be honest at some point in time. At some point, we have to be honest about the laundry habits of this country. Well, I'm just laughing with recognition. When you do the nose test, when you realise you've run out of a certain garment and you think, hmm, maybe if I turned those ones inside out, they would do me another day. Well, of course. Surely everybody does that from time to time. Laura's looking puzzled. Perhaps Laura does.

Well, this is where I think a generational thing might come in as well. I'm going to be 55 on Sunday, so I grew up in an era where we did one wash a week. We didn't even have a washing machine. So you certainly didn't put on, you know, four washes a day and have the ridiculous thing where kids come in now and their mother says to them, look at your trousers, they're dirty. And you think, yeah, that's why you wear them, you know.

This idea that you just wash a thing because you've had it on is absolutely ridiculous. Go on, Laura. I've been speaking to friends and I've been quite shocked by the range of different opinions on this. There was one person who told me that they knew how to get four wares out of one pair of boxers. And then there was someone who told me that they wash their sheets every day. Sheets?

Every day. Well, how do they dry them? They had a few sets of sheets, but they just liked the feeling of getting into clean sheets every day. Well, we all like the feeling of getting into clean sheets, but I like it. Carry on, Nuala. You were bursting to say something there. No, not me. No, no. like the feeling of getting into a few sheets, but I like it. Carry on, Nuala, what you were bursting to say something there? No, not me, no, no, I'm just laughing along and enjoying it. I certainly don't change

my brassiere every day when somebody said some, I think the reporter who interviewed Stella McCartney was a little bit shocked and said, it makes me feel itchy even thinking I'm not changing it. And immediately then you're sitting reading that thinking, oh my God, am I really dirty? I didn't do that.

I don't do that. So it's all social norms. And I think the fact that we can clean makes everybody think we have to clean. But there's a class element here. I mean, if you've got no money and you're down on your luck and, again, something else we talked about earlier in the programme, you can't afford to be smelly, can you? That would be dire. Well, I remember a story about a local comprehensive school which was in a posh area with a poor area nearby. And you could tell who had come from the poor families by how sparkling white their socks were, compared to those that come from the middle class I mean, I know various people who are of the gentry who will wear jumpers with holes in it which, again, you would be absolutely...

Your mother would tear you apart if you were actually trying to make some progress in the world. It's a kind of backhanded... If you feel entitled it doesn't matter how you smell, probably. You just think you're entitled because you're entitled, isn't that right? Somebody's coming into my mind, but I won't mention him just while we're on the subject. Perhaps other people are channeling

the same thought as me. Who knows? Joanna Conter is the British number one tennis player. Now, she's made big headlines this week, not really for her tennis, although she's done rather well, had a good Wimbledon, relatively speaking, did lose her semi-final, and here's an encounter,

a quarter-final, beg your pardon, and here she is in an encounter with a journalist called Matthew Dunn of the Daily Express. Do you not have to look at yourself a little bit about how you cope with these big points? Because it's all very well saying it's a lot to do with your opponent. But there were key points when you perhaps could have done better. Is that in your professional tennis opinion? No, that's just as a watching spectator with everyone else in centre court willing you on. Okay, I mean, I don't think you need to pick on me in a harsh way.

I mean, I think I'm very open with you guys, and I say how I feel out there, and if you don't want to accept that answer or you don't agree with it, that's fine, but I still believe in the tennis that i play and i still believe in the way i competed and um yeah i don't have much else to say to your question i'm just asking you as somebody who presumably wants to go on from here learn from this and win a grand slam one day is it not something that you need please don't patronize

me i would have no no you are in the way you're asking in the way you're asking your question you have been quite disrespectful and you're patronizing me i'm a professional competitor who did her best today and that's all there is to that that's interesting isn't it i don't know who was in the wrong there joy what do you think well i don't think she's a corporate ceo or politician so she doesn't necessarily need to have you know an answer to everything however it did strike me as a very chippy response to what is in fact a series of journalistic questions and as he said himself, was a punter. And this question of patronising then takes it into the kind of male-female debate

as to how you're meant to speak to a professional tennis player. She's representing our country, let's ask her a few questions. Okay, Lara? I think it's a bit of a silly question really. Why would you take part in Wimbledon if you didn't want to win the tournament? I think there's a slight psychosis that we develop over Wimbledon. We're so

desperate for someone to win that I think sometimes we sort of forget our manners and actually just become a bit aggressive towards people when they don't win. Is it perhaps that Yolanda Conta, she is British, she is the British number one female tennis player. Would it be fair to say we haven't entirely

taken her to our hearts? Some tennis fans haven't. I think that she was playing for Australia for a while. I think perhaps people aren't quite as fond of her as they have been for other tennis players. But we should give her a chance. If she won, we would then be claiming

her as a great star. We absolutely would. And to her credit, Nuala, she's got a bit of spark about her. She isn't anodyne. She was cross with him, didn't like the question, and she went for it. Yeah, I'm not sure how soon after she played she was interviewed. I don't know, was it straight after? I think it was more or less straight after.

They have to do these press conferences. I mean, gosh, she's not that old, and she's probably, you you know yourself the adrenaline's pumping she probably felt horrendous about her own performance I don't know but probably somebody needs to take her in hand and just say to her look this is how you deal with the press a little bit better don't get drawn

in you know clearly not love all for her but she'll learn I would imagine and yeah I'm sure you get you know sometimes you just want to tell people where to go when they're sitting there telling you that you know why did you let that point go so I would imagine. And yeah, I'm sure you get, you know, sometimes you just want to tell people where to go when they're sitting there telling you that, you know, why did you let that point go? So I would have sympathy with her. Yeah, you don't you don't get cross about the possible male female dynamic element to all this. That wasn't something in your head.

Well, you know, it could have been that it's in her head. It could be that when you're prone to be upset, you know, if you're in a frame of mind, you're not feeling good about something and somebody pokes you, it's probably easy just to pick on the first thing that comes to mind. I don't know if it was a male, female. I mean, one female can patronise another. Or did you not understand that already, Jane? Well, that was how the live programme ended. I thought I was very generous allowing Nuala to have the last word. But it's the whole gag's ruined now, Nuala, because she's still there. So yes, never mind. I'm still ready to be patronised

back. Well, you also told us that you were 55, is it next week? I am on Sunday. Happy birthday. I was 55 a couple of Sundays ago. It's crap, isn't it? Anyway, never mind. I think it's great. Can I just say I think it's great?

Oh, okay. It's great. Yeah, brilliant. So, we're going to talk about Marks & Spencers. I don't know what it is about Marks & Spencer, but you can tell me whether you care or not. I don't really care about many shops, but for a lot of reasons, I do care about Marks & Spencers. And they're back in the headlines again today. Jill MacDonald, the head of clothing and home, has been sacked. They are still Britain's biggest fashion retailer. We forget this sometimes.

Yes, things have been going wrong for them, but they are still the biggest fashion retailer in the UK. However, we know they're having a challenge at the moment, to put it mildly. So, Lara and Joy, first of all, because you're substantially younger, do you shop there? Do you buy clothes there, Lara? Yeah, absolutely. I buy tights every year um buy most of my underwear in m&s that's only tights and pants so that's probably not enough to keep it going i'd sometimes buy sandwiches in there there's an m&s that's closed on holloway road near where i live in north london and i find it

very sad looking at this closed shop front um so why do you so do you agree with me that for some reason we do care about marks and sp Spencers? Yeah, I don't know if it's nostalgia or there's just this sort of sense that it just needs to carry on regardless of even if it's not actually doing particularly well. But people are very attached to it in a way that they're not attached to other shops. Joy?

I think we regard it almost as like the NHS of the high street. I mean it's had such a long history and it has become embedded in our culture and where our mothers shopped and sometimes our fathers shopped. I remember there was a wonderful fashion writer, a men's fashion writer at the Evening Standard

called Nick Fuchs, who's now writing elsewhere, who could once identify one of my colleague's suits by looking and saying, oh yes, 1997 Marks Spencers summer edition. So there was a kind of fine eye even for what M&S could produce. But when you're sort of fighting up against

Zara and Primark and all this fast fashion, do you then go and spend, I think, a little bit extra money in Marks and Spencers for something that in fact looks, I think, often quite generic? I don't, I'm afraid to say. You don't buy your stuff there. Actually, the reason that Jill MacDonald has lost this role

is that it's the supply chain that's been going wrong, Nuala. When they do actually hit on an item that people want, they can't get enough of the jeans or the jacket into the stores. So I kind of think it's trying to be all things to all people. You know, you find yourself wandering in and picking something up and thinking, that's nice.

And then you realise you're in the classic section and it's aimed at the over 70s. And then now this year, there are all those granny dresses that are aimed at women in their 20s. And I never see anybody under the age of 20, 30 shopping in Marksies locally. I don't know who actually buys all the clothes, but I'm struggling. I want to find stuff there. I struggle to find, and their sizes are all over the place as well.

So come on, Marksies, do better. Yeah, okay. They still make the best single bagels anywhere, I have to say. I buy them in bulk and freeze them. There's my little tip. I can't get them in my size. That's the problem.

Bagels? Oh, God. I actually had the surreal experience of going shopping with my 19-year-old daughter the other day in Marksies and she bought something. I paid for the flaming thing, but I bought it for her. I was quite surprised, but then teenagers surprise you. Maybe there's cause for optimism. Thank you all very much.

Really appreciate you sticking around this morning and enjoy your weekends. Thank you very much. All the best to you, Nuala. Happy birthday. Thanks, bye. And Joy, thanks to you too. And Laura, good to have you on and enjoy your weekends. Thank you very much. All the best to you, Nuala. Happy birthday. Thanks, bye. And Joy, thanks to you too. And Laura, good to have you on the programme as well.

Thank you. Join Jenny for Monday's edition of Woman's Hour. This is about why more black British women than white British women die as a consequence of complications during or after pregnancy. Hello, it's Sophie Duker. Heidi Regan. Ned Sedgwick here. We've been given 30 seconds to tell you why Grown-Up Land

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