Woman's Hour - Supporting a child with depression, Flexible working, Maggie O'Farrell, Paint recycling, Carers and the pandemic.

Episode Date: November 7, 2020

Liz Brookes looks after her husband Mike, who has had vascular dementia and Chris Black cares for his wife, Helen, who has Picks disease, or Frontotemporal dementia. How have they coped during the pandemic? We also hear from Emily Holzhausen, Director of Policy and Public Affairs from Carers UK.Has the Covid crisis helped to usher in a future of flexible working? A new report from the campaign Flex Appeal says while that forced remote working during a pandemic is not the same as flexible working, there are lessons that can be learned from lockdown. Anna Whitehouse aka Mother Pukka who co-founded Flex Appeal, and Louise Deverell-Smith who runs Daisy Chain, an online platform that matches flexible employers with flexible job-seekers discuss.As part of our new series on life and shoes, we speak to Carmen about her espadrilles her mother danced in decades ago. Josh suffered his first major depressive episode just before he was due to take his A levels. At university his mental health deteriorated further. Josh and his mum Mandy have written a book 'The Boy Between'. They tell us about their experiences – in Josh’s case, learning to live with depression, and in Mandy’s case how best to support and help someone you love who suffers with depression.Cat Hyde is one of the founders of Seagulls, a project which takes leftover paint and repurposes it into new paint. They take volunteers such as Ash, a young woman who now works at their paint shop, who says that working at Seagulls was vital in her regaining her confidence. Maggie O’Farrell’s first picture book for children, 'Where Snow Angels Go By' is the story of a brave little girl who is visited by her snow angel in her time of need. The idea for the book grew out of a story Maggie told her own sick child in the back of an ambulance.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, good afternoon and a warm welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Now, this week we are going to talk about carers, many of whom, of course, have been having a really tough time in lockdown. So we'll discuss that in a moment. You can also hear from mother and son Amanda and Josh. Amanda is trying her best to support Josh, who has depression. He's in his early 20s and it's been difficult for the entire family.

You can hear about that a little later. And we also have award-winning novelist Maggie O'Farrell. There is nothing that replaces that kind of bubble that you get into with a child when you're sharing a story or a narrative with them and you can talk about it and you're both inhabiting this imaginative space it's irreplaceable so please i would always urge people to carry on reading to your child as long as they want the great maggie o'farrell more from her a little later and we also celebrate the shoes that carmen treasures because they were her mother's your Your life in shoes. Something we'll be exploring on Woman's Hour in the next couple of weeks. Now, research from Carers UK showed that four in five carers report they're still providing more care than before lockdown.

And nearly two thirds have said they are really worried about how they're going to carry on managing over the course of this really challenging winter. Well, back in April, we spoke to Liz Brooks, who did work as a nurse. She lives near Rochdale with her husband, Mike, who's had vascular dementia for nine years. Liz is in her 60s. Mike is in his 70s. He was in the RAF. He was a truck driver. He had his own business. Chris Black is a listener from Hornchurch in Essex, and he cares for his wife, Helen, who has PICS disease or frontal temporal dementia. Both are in their 50s. Helen worked as a graphic designer. We also spoke to Emily Hosshausen, director of policy and public affairs from Carers UK.

I asked Liz, first of all, how she and Mike have been. Lockdown hasn't been very kind to Mike. He has deteriorated quite significantly and certainly faster than I might have expected over normal circumstances. We also have had a revised diagnosis. He's been told he now has Alzheimer's on top of his vascular dementia.

And that was delivered by telephone rather than face-to-face, which was pretty brutal. Mike also now goes to a day centre twice a week. And that's been a lifesaver for both of us, really, because he now gets out more than I do, because I have to continue to self-isolate in order to protect that placement. That's something that I hadn't appreciated.

So Mike is at least going out, but to allow him to carry on going out, you can't go out. No, that's about the bottom of it. Wow, that's quite a load on you, isn't it? OK, on top of everything else. And the fact that that diagnosis was as you say delivered by phone you say it would have been slightly easier to hear it in person what was the impact of just getting that information on the phone? It was a bit of a hammer blow really because there was nobody else there to you know make a cup of tea offer offer me some tissues or to give me a hug.

So it was a very, very lonely, tough moment. And how are you doing? Not great. I found that I was getting increasingly anxious and really very bleak thoughts started to take over. And so I'm now on antidepressants, which have helped quite a lot. But I'm one of the two thirds who is absolutely dreading the next few months. What sort of help have you got over the period of this winter in terms of other relatives, your own friends? Do you get regular phone calls? What have you got?

I've got phone calls from the Alzheimer's Society. I get a regular check-in from somebody from Veterans and Communities. There is a Zoom group as well from Salford Institute for Dementia Studies of people with dementia and carers. We have a regular session, which is really great. Relatives don't live close by, so that's a non-starter. We had a very good friend who we formed a bubble with, but unfortunately she died three weeks ago.

And so that's another supporter, and a wonderful supporter at that, who we have lost. Liz, do you listen to music, podcasts? Is the radio your friend? What else have you got going on? I love the radio. The radio's great. But Mike finds noise very difficult. And so often our house is very quiet.

But when he's not here, then I can listen to music and, yeah, just do other things. Hang on there, Liz. Thank you very much. Chris, I know back when we talked in the spring, you were very keen, I don't think that's unfair, to keep on caring for Helen on your own. Now, have you been able to do so? And I pass no judgment, by the way. I wouldn't be able to do a tenth of what you've been doing. But tell us what's happened. To go back to your question, yes, it was very, very difficult. It was a tough decision to make. I'm glad I made it. And I looked after Helen 24-7 for

84 days before I realized that I needed help. And it was affecting my mental capacity to cope with the situation. I'm glad I did it because I could guarantee that there was no one coming to the house and there was no risk of catching the infection from other people. Now, Liz spoke about Mike deteriorating. Can I ask how Helen is? Helen's okay. The thing with Pick's is that she's lost all awareness of her surroundings and what's going on other than what's presented to her or the magic word chocolate. But yeah, in general terms, it's been a slow decline. We had a couple of instances where she had a blackout, she collapsed and she ended up in A&E. Eventually we found it was low blood pressure which was causing her

to collapse. Generally she's functioning as a body, you know, she's still double incontinent, dribbling and spitting and she's unable to verbalise what's going on. So there's little noises that mean certain things. You have got carers in a couple of times a day now, is that right? Yes, we've got carers in during the daytime, weekdays and weekends now as well. So that's an absolute godsend. You know, I don't really sleep at night. Helen's in her own little room.

We've now got a nice, comfortable hospital bed for her and a monitor, and I'm in the room next door to that. So my one eye and one ear is always listening out for her. Chris, thank you. Just stay with us. I want to bring in Emily from Carers UK. First of all, actually, Emily, I should say we've got a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. We recognise the vital role played by unpaid carers and they've been prioritised for a range of support and exempted from inter-house mixing rules. We also have in the press release, they

point out the fact that as part of the department's pandemic response, we've given access to £4.6 billion to councils in England, including to support adult social care. So, Emily, what more could and should the government do, do you believe? There are a number of different things that government can do. I mean, this new guidance about intermixing of households is really important because people were worried about whether they could go, you know, a daughter going and providing support to mum and dad. Can we do that? And the answer is yes, you can. I mean, the funding into social care is really important, but we're still seeing very low levels of funding overall just because of the state that social care was in beforehand. If we look at the types of services that Liz and Chris have been relying on, about half the services, day services, have not reopened during the pandemic,

so carers tell us. So this is two precious days where Mike goes into the day service. There are half of carers who are not getting that at all. There are things that would make life so much easier for those in care homes. Of course, testing and key visiting times and policies, that's really critical. And being able to get PPE as an unpaid carer if you're in particular situations. What's the situation as far as you know about it in terms of PPE? There are some local councils that have got some limited supplies for PPE for carers. And we want to see that. Of course, it's vital for when we look at care,

hope that we've got PPE for that. But the other thing I wanted to mention as well, Jane, is that people who are in receipt of carers allowance don't get universal credit have not seen an uplift to their income so government has given 20 pounds a week which is very welcome to people in receipt of universal credit to recognise the increased costs that they've got yeah I mean it is only still 20 quid a week but but carry on yeah but for those people on really low incomes it makes such a difference. And so all those carers who don't get universal credit are missing out on that. And a large proportion of those, of course, are women. Nearly three quarters are women. So that's another thing

that we would like to see urgently changed. What we have to pin our hopes on is a vaccine, which we keep being told is coming our way. I'm sure, Emily, you would argue that carers have absolutely got to be completely prioritised if and when that becomes available. I couldn't agree with you more. Sadly, they're not prioritised. They're not on the priority list. And that is their second top ask. They want to be on that list and they want to be a priority.

Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. That's Emily from Carers UK. Liz, what are you anticipating over this weekend? Can you just give us an idea of what your life is going to consist of over the next couple of days? It's going to be finding constructive things to do together and keeping my occupied and stimulated. It's going to be a big ask because we're bored with each other and the days are very very long and going back to the government recognizes the value of unpaid carers I don't feel valued I don't feel recognized I feel invisible and unheard because they are not responding

adequately to what the carers and dementia charities are saying to them. And clearly, if I get COVID, who looks after Mike? They've got to protect us. Chris, what about you? Tell us about what you're going to be doing this weekend. I agree with Liz. You know, there needs to be more funding and support for us on a mental level. And also, there's one admiral nurse in our region that covers four local boroughs, just one nurse. And it's not sufficient support for us. We're still waiting for our flu jabs. And I think the government needs to realise that we are a priority because if Liz isn't there, if I'm not here to look after Helen,

the cost of them going into permanent full-time care is thousands per week and we pay £20 a week to be a carer. That's Chris Black. You also heard from Liz Brooks and from Emily Hosshausen of Carers UK. Many of you just wanted to say how much you admired the astonishing commitment and hard work of people like Liz and Chris. So we note that. Also, I should say, Suzanne emailed to say,

I care for my daughter and my mother who has dementia. My husband is a long distance driver. I was made redundant. So I started working freelance last November. I don't qualify for universal credit or the COVID self-employed grant or any benefits other than child benefit and carer's allowance. I was unable to get a job because of my caring responsibilities, but I'm not counted in the unemployment figures. I think there must be thousands of people like me left to carry the mental, practical and financial burden

with no reasonable recognition of our contribution. Beyond the devastating effects of illness and disability, that, for me, is the toughest pill to swallow. Suzanne, thank you for that. And you can email the programme, of course, whenever you like via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash women's hour. We're particularly interested in hearing from people who feel there's something going on in their life that they haven't heard covered on the programme or indeed anywhere else in the media. Please tell us and we'll do our best

to make sure your voice is heard. Now, working from home can give flexibility and a better work-life balance, or so we're told, but being forced to work from home can have a rather detrimental effect on mental health. This week, the programme talked to Anna Whitehouse, aka Mother Pucker, and the founder of Flex Appeal, and to Louise Deverell-Smith, who runs Daisy Chain, an online platform that matches flexible employers with flexible job seekers. And the presenter on this day was Chloe Tilley. Now, Anna's organisation did a report into forced remote working. What did it find? The report is called Forever Flex, flexible working beyond a crisis. And it's really to harness the point that we're not currently working from home. This is not flexible working. We're in our homes working

in the context of a pandemic with childcare responsibilities. I mean, my husband and I did the maths, you know, there's often eight hours of working, perhaps three hours of homeschooling if your children are off, 12 hours of childcare. That's been 23 hours in a 24-hour day. You know, I'm not really into the maths on this, but that doesn't sound great. So we're sort of, you know, we are really trying to focus on the fact that what we're seeing right now is not flexible working, but we can harness the momentum. We have like a generational opportunity to change the way we work right now. And where is it working? And the Forever Flex report, which was funded by Sir Robert McAlpine and driven by social change agency Claremont, has managed to pull together, I think the best way to describe it is top trump cards of the how. specific companies, public and private sector, small, large, medium companies, how can we use and wield the current situation to our advantage moving forward? So yes, I think to your point, we found a moment we're working in fake flex, people are burning out. You know, I think Sir

Isaac Newton has been used as an example that, you know, he managed to come up with a theory of gravity and calculus in 1667 in the bubonic plague. And I was like, yes, but did he have a child asking for a pepper pig spoon over a paw patrol spoon? No, he didn't. Oh, we've all been there. Yes. This is really to humanise flexible working going forwards and how we can actually wield it to our advantage. Louise, I'm interested to know, because I can imagine pre-pandemic that some companies would have a reticence to allow people to have flexible working, worrying that if they came in late or they worked from home,

that it might have a detrimental effect on the business. I guess they've been forced to address that during the pandemic and see the realities of the situation. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with what Anna said. Obviously, this report she's done has really highlighted what we've all been doing in this time and kind of working in a pandemic and trying to work remotely and flexibly. And so what we're doing at the moment is definitely not what we've always said flexible working is. Businesses, I think, during the pandemic and, you know, currently are really testing flexible working for the first time and seeing the challenges, but seeing that it can actually work and it works for their employees and it works for them. So, Anna, if you want to

apply for flexible working, what do you have to do? And there are some rules surrounding it at the moment. I know it's slightly different in Northern Ireland, but give us a sense of what you should do. Well, I think this is where the heart of FlexAppeal lies in that currently you have to wait 26 weeks in a role to put the request forward. And that puts you puts the onus on the employee and it makes you feel like you have to prove, you know, that you need this when actually it's not a bonus ball. It's not a nice to have. It's not a fluffy extra. It should be a fundamental shift in the way we work. So we're going to be fighting for flexible working from day one for everyone with our flexible coalition. We we feel that you're you're stunting talent by saying they have to earn that right to flexible working. Because if you're in a role where it is flexible and you want to move to a role that you suddenly have to earn, you know, after 26 weeks, the right to that flexibility, you're not going to move. So you're stunting

talent. And often the burden of childcare is strapped to female shoulders. So often it's a woman that remains in a job that works for her and doesn't want to move. So ultimately you're holding women back with that. So yes, 26 weeks at the moment, we're fighting for it from day one for everyone. Louise, what are you finding has changed during the pandemic with regards the sort of people who are coming to you and also what companies are wanting? So, I mean, we have seen an increase on our business of over 3,000% of new users. That's obviously candidate-driven, and that's not unexpected due to the amounts of redundancies and people looking for works. But we have seen an increase as well of companies joining that have suddenly realised that they can

actually offer flexible working and part-time work, job shares, they want to connect with freelancers. So we have seen an increase there. I feel like the larger corporates are probably a bit slower, maybe, to offer this flexible working from the offset. And before the pandemic, less than 10% of jobs were advertised as flexible. And I think going forward, that number will definitely increase because I think lots of businesses will now have seen that they can do it. And actually, at the moment, they have to offer remote working. So if they're looking to recruit, they have to offer that at the moment because we can't be in the office. Yeah, of course. And Anna, I know that you talked about the construction firm that you worked with

in co-authoring this report. And part of that was driven because of the high levels of suicide amongst construction workers, wasn't it? Yes, I was consistently getting flack for pushing for just mothers wanting flexible working when actually it should be for everyone. And we started speaking to Sorotno-Calpine and they, I think,,400 men, took their own lives within construction sites between 2011 and 2015. And that was a very sad, dark point where we could open up the conversation to male mental health. The need for flexible working for those with disabilities, those with caring responsibilities, those with mental health issues, those just wanting to live. I think that was where we really came together. And it stopped being seen as a women's issue,

a mummy issue. Mummy just wants to see more of her Weetabix smattered child. It became a people issue. And that is something that I think this pandemic has highlighted is that flexible working is for everyone. It is not just for parents. 72% of employers want to keep working from home. 70% of employers want to continue working flexibly. So, we really need to keep that momentum up for everyone, for men on construction sites, for women at home, for those with disabilities. And it's interesting. I mean, you talk about that rate of the number of people who've taken their own lives working construction, it's three times the national average for men. But of course, there's lots of reasons why that rate might be high. It could be job insecurity,

it could be unrealistic deadlines, working away from home. Those things aren't going to be helped by flexible working, are they? And I mean, also, one of the things people are talking about here is you need flexible childcare as well. Yes, you do. And I think this is something we're really pushing is to ensure that this campaign is inclusive. It can't just be for white collar workers working nine to five and often NHS shift workers or anybody who needs to be flexible outside of that nine to five. We've only found one childcare in the UK. It's called Daisy Care in Birmingham that offers 24 hour childcare. So that is really going to have to be the next move is how to facilitate everybody working flexibly. And I think part of that is predictive hours,

ensuring that shift workers don't get their hours the night before, giving more control over their hours. On NHS wards in Birmingham Women's Hospital, they have ward-led rostering where the nurses decide amongst themselves how to run their wards at the time. So there's lots of different ways to work flexibly. It's not simply working from home. And that's, I think, what we're coming out of this pandemic realising. But the truth is, to be honest, is that if companies didn't zoom in during the pandemic, they'd have had to shut down. And I think it's very interesting to see when cold, hard cash is at stake, what is in fact possible. Chloe Tilley talking to Anna Whitehouse and to Louise Deverell-Smith. Now, we've been asking you over the last couple of weeks to tell us about your lives through the prism of your footwear by way of shoes.

And first up was listener Carmen this week. She's from Milton Keynes. She's a trainer and therapist. And she sent us a photograph, which you can see on our Twitter feed, of three pairs of very special dancing shoes. Here's Carmen. I'm first generation British. My parents are both from Spain. My mum was born in Barcelona, my dad's Valencian, and my grandparents came over during the Civil War,

the Spanish Civil War, obviously escaping Franco's regime. So they settled here, brought my family, my parents and my grandparents over. And we were, you know, born here, brought up here. But they both went, my parents both went back to Spain 25 years ago, you know, back to their homeland, really. And learnt, relearned the dance and had a wonderful life until they got, you know, older. And I brought them back then in their latter years to spend some time with them before they left.

Well, that's lovely. That gives us a real idea of who you are and where you've come from and your family as well. So tell us about the shoes then. First of all, the espadrilles that your mum wore. They're espadrilles in Catalan and they were for a very specific Catalan dance called Cerdana. It's a dance where you dance a circular dance and it's so inclusive. It's any age, culture, you know, anyone can join in the dance at any time. So it's very inclusive

and it is very special to the Catalan people because during the Civil War, they weren't allowed to dance the Sardanas, obviously during Franco's regime. Oh, I see. It was outlawed. It was a political act then. That's right, because it was very much linked to the Catalan people. Right. It's continued in part of Catalonia for celebrations, for fiestas and weekends.

And it's professionally danced now. You know, you have competitions where people will dance the serranas. It's very specific music, you know. And it's a very simple dance. You know, children can dance. You know, older people can dance. It's so inclusive. It's a beautiful, beautiful dance.

And my mother would cry whenever she heard the dancing and would dance into her 80s until she was in a wheelchair and couldn't dance any longer. So I have her shoes hanging in my dining room as a reminder to keep dancing as well as I can because there will come a time where we can no longer dance and it's just such a beautiful expression. Well, actually hearing you say that, it's very evocative. There will be a time when we can't dance.

Of course, you're absolutely right. So tell us about your own shoes well i started dancing um salsa probably about 25 years ago now um heard the music saw people dancing and i just thought that's what i wanted to so i just submerged myself in learning salsa we didn't have any milton keynes at the time so i would have to go to london or luton and went anywhere I could find it eventually we started and I became an instructor a basic instructor for salsa and did that for five years as a hobby so really encouraged people and just saw how people grew and shone in their dance and one one of the things I would say, especially to women, is that men obviously lead the dance.

And that's the only time you let them lead. But also women lead with the right, which means that we're always right, which obviously would get a bit of laughter from the women in the group. Yes, yeah. I mean, do you think we're all capable of salsa? I worry that I would be hopeless at something like that because I wouldn't be any good at letting myself go. Is that just my hopeless British intransigence and resistance to letting myself express myself properly? Not at all. It's a journey and it's like a life journey. I mean, you can use the dance analogy for so much of life in a sense of our well-being and sort of having a sense of achievement, having a sense of competence, being stretched. You know, you start from the basics.

You know, you could say life is a dance, really. And you keep dancing on that shifting carpet, don't we? Yeah, sticky carpet at the moment. It feels like the last 10 minutes at a disco. Anyway, carry on, go on. But salsa is just one of my loves of dance. I dance the rock, which is probably a little bit simpler because it's a simpler footwork. Meringue, cazumba, sevillanas is a very traditional Spanish dance.

It's a beautiful dance, Sevillanas is a very traditional Spanish dance. It's a beautiful dance, Sevillanas. It tells a story of a couple where boy meets girl in the first part. They fall in love. They then have a fight and then they make up. So it's beautiful. Tango is my biggest passion at the moment. My instructor, Guy, says it's a hug on the dance

floor because it's a beautiful way to connect. You know, we all need to feel connected and that's, I think, so important to our wellbeing, to feel connected, whether it's with the partner you're dancing with or, you know, with the community that you join. And that was Carmen and there'll be more lives

told through shoes over the next couple of weeks on Women's Hour. Now, next week, Nigella Lawson is one of our guests. She's going to be talking to me on Thursday. We're celebrating women and allotments. And thank you, by the way, to the listeners who have already sent us some fantastic images of their allotments. If you'd like to get involved with that, you can do so.

Just send us an image on Twitter, it's probably the best thing, at BBC Woman's Hour. It is true now that more women than men in Britain have allotments and I bet at the moment they are giving enormous solace to many, many people. Now this week we talked to the novelist Amanda Prowse and to her son Josh, who have collaborated on I think an important book called The Boy Between. Just before Josh was due to take A-levels, he had

his first major depressive episode. Now at the time, neither he nor his family really had a clue what was actually happening. Josh did go on to university as planned, but there his mental health deteriorated further, to the point that he was thinking of planning his own death. So if this is something that you don't feel able to deal with at the moment, you don't want to hear, then I'm just telling you that this conversation is about very severe mental health and the impact on not just one individual, but on the entire family. Here's Josh.

I thought I was one of the only people feeling this peculiar way. And depression affects you in a fairly unique way and makes you feel completely isolated. So partly my own ignorance was part of the reason it took such a strong hold. Was it something that you could talk about to your mates at the time? I didn't feel like I could, no, not at that time. But I think the conversation is opening up slightly and it's slightly better now. Mandy, from your perspective, what did you see happening to Josh? I think it happened gradually as far as we were concerned.

Josh was always, you know, he was very studious. He worked very hard at school. He was quite quiet. You know, he wasn't a party animal. He was, you know, happy on a laptop or listening to music. And so when he sort of took to his bed, which is how I can describe it, and spent more of his days horizontal than vertical, just sleeping all the time. I think we initially hoped and thought that it was just a sort of teenage blip, maybe, you know, rebellion through sleep and just wasn't participating in normal chats and was slightly moody. And I said, you know what? He's got exam pressure.

There'll be a lot of hormones flying around. It's probably all that stuff. And we just need to give him some space and he'll come out the other side. We have another son who's a very similar age to Josh, Ben. And I think it was sort of hard not to compare the two. So Ben was very outgoing and sporty and was sociable. And Josh was very, very quiet. And I said, you know, they're different kids. There is no, you know, cookie cutter child. We just need to let them both develop in their own way. So even though it was concerning, I wasn't overly worried, Jane, I think. No. And Josh, you didn't do badly in your A-levels. I think you gave yourself a hard time because you didn't quite do as well as you

might have hoped. You went on to university and I think we need to make clear that it wasn't university that made you ill although it certainly didn't help would that be fair? Yeah I think that's fair even though there are a lot of factors at university that come into play that don't at school for example if you miss a single lesson at school someone's asking you where were you you know how are you feeling today yet you can miss months of lectures without without any checkup whatsoever and that's sort of the perfect environment for depression to thrive really I should say that some universities have certainly changed that now haven't they and they have a scheme where you can actually ask when you go to university if you're nearest and dearest to be

contacted if you're unwell yeah that's part of this mental health charter that that student minds are are embracing. And it's brilliant, Jane, because I think it's exactly that. It offers an opt-in, which is so reassuring for parents like me who are at home just really hamstrung, not knowing where to go for information when Josh started to fall through the cracks. I think it's absolutely vital. And I'm so glad that that's being taken up by universities as best practice. It's exactly what needs to happen. Josh, I think perhaps you might have thought that you could, I don't know, escape from your depression at university.

Was that your hope? It was certainly a hope, but far from reality. You know, living by myself away from my parents, it just absolutely thrived. That sense of isolation that comes with depression really can take hold when you're living by yourself and don't have that family support network you're used to at school. Partly, as every pressure does, the sort of intense drinking

certainly didn't do me any favours. Yeah, but on the other hand, intense drinking in those early weeks at university is almost a prerequisite, isn't it? It's mostly pretty difficult for a lot of students to meet young people without it do you think I mean Josh is there a way around that do you think no I don't unfortunately it's so normalized in our in our society it's it's just part of the university experience but I've got to be honest when I was not at my lowest point but was severely depressed the blackout drinking was almost a release for me at that time it was a pause in my illness gosh that's really uh that's tough for you mandy to to uh at the time what or how much

of all this were you aware of i think we we became aware of it quite early on because josh became quite non-communicative and wouldn't respond to texts and things and communication was minimal and I just felt this desperate sense of not knowing where to go for help or even advice because was this just normal student behavior that he was you know sloshed on social media more often than he wasn't this this quietness was it because he was having the best time of his life or was it because he was having the worst and I think we felt completely helpless and it was only really when he came home from university for sort of breaks around Christmas and summer, that we saw just how far he deteriorated. And it set every alarm bell ringing. But even then, it was like,

well, okay, we're faced with this child who is clearly, his mental health is failing. What do we do? And we didn't even know what to do. Once we had that information, you know, where's the cure, the magic tablet, the retreat, the person, how do we we fix it and it sort of in a way even though we were able to identify Josh was suffering it was really just the start of the journey. On a practical level how does a parent or a carer or a friend best help someone with depression Josh from your perspective? It depends what stage they're in. But if it's sort of they are depressed, but they're not a danger to themselves,

just be there for them, speak to them, let them know that they are loved and they're not alone, even though they will absolutely feel it. I think letting them know how common depression is nowadays, they are not suffering alone. Unfortunately, there's probably multiple people in their halls suffering in the exact same way they are. But then if they are in more of a crisis period and they are a danger to themselves just stay with them um you know hold their hand make sure they're warm enough and get them a cup

of tea just look after them like they're severely ill which they are we should say of course at the moment i'm just looking at the latest guidance although universities are staying open students mustn't go backwards and forwards between home and their student homes they can go home at Christmas in Wales students are encouraged to stay in their term time accommodation unless they need to travel on compassionate grounds in Scotland well guidance at the end of September said students can go home to self-isolate, but other members of the household have got to quarantine for 14 days and shorter visits in Scotland only permitted if there is a reasonable excuse, such as a family emergency or bereavement.

Josh, if you go back to a time when you were a university student feeling as terrible as you did, this lockdown really does present a challenge to any student, particularly in their first year at university. Are you concerned about that? terrible as you did, this lockdown really does present a challenge to any student, particularly in their first year at university. Are you concerned about that? Absolutely, but I think we have to turn it on its head slightly and look at this in the bubbles of six as a great opportunity to make five very strong friendships and relationships and sort of fully look after five other people and know that five other people are looking after you because otherwise mental health is going to seriously deteriorate

in the next coming months. Yes. I guess, though, you're relying on the maturity of, let's say you are in a student flat and you are with, because you only started six or seven weeks ago, you are with relative strangers. How or what should other students watch out for, Josh? Taking to their beds, not talking, heavy drinking. It can often seem like the loudest and smiliest person at the parties tends to be the one suffering alone.

Go on, Sarah. Well, I think exactly that. Just look out for each other. If you haven't seen someone for a day or a while, knock on their door, invite them out. Sit with them, talk to them, a cup of tea. It really is all the little small things, Janeane that certainly made a difference in our house it wasn't you know anything drastic it was sitting with josh and opening a window and turning the pillow over and letting him know it was okay to just be there was no pressure on him to get out of bed if he didn't feel he could and not you know muddling his head with complex questions keeping it simple do you want a cup of tea and can I sit with you is far easier than how are you feeling and are you feeling better which

can feel like a huge pressure yes I mean can I ask Mandy how you how do you disguise your exasperation I have to be honest I think I would find it difficult to have somebody Frank to be really blunt just in bed all day And I don't think I'd be alone. Did you ever have moments where it just really got to you? Constantly. That's exactly what it was like. I fluctuated between feeling incredibly frustrated. Why won't he get out of bed? Why doesn't he get a job? Why doesn't he do something?

Which my ignorance and my naivety only obviously added to Josh's feeling of depression. And he said since that because I didn't understand and was saying those things, and he knew I was thinking those things, it just made him feel even worse. I was saying those things to someone who couldn't even lift their head off the pillow and hadn't washed their hair for a month. I was just so ignorant and I'm ashamed of that. And I will always regret, obviously, with hindsight, how I did handle it. And on the other hand, if I wasn't feeling that level of frustration,

I was desperately unhappy for Josh, sobbing, crying, and almost, you know, as though it was my problem and my battle, which it isn't, and it wasn't, it's Josh's. But I made it about me sometimes with my level of emotion. And that, again, was exactly the wrong thing to do. It was unfair. Yeah. Josh, what do you think about that? I think she didn't know better. But at the same time, if your own mother doesn't know what's going on, how can you expect

the wider society to know how you're feeling? Josh, how is life for you now? I have good days and bad days like everyone, but it's good at the moment. I spend a lot of time outdoors, which I know really helps my mental health. I live in the middle of the countryside, which is nice. And I'm very thankful for that during lockdown. And your university, you left university, I should say, sometimes people are, young people in particular, are very reluctant to give up on something that might have been a long held dream, or perhaps even worse, their family's dream. It isn't easy to walk away, is it, Josh? No, absolutely not. And we're such a competitive

generation. Everything feels like a race, a challenge, and you have to win. And dropping out feels like you're falling behind in that race when it's just not the case at all. Whatever path you take is probably right for you. That is important, isn't it, Mandy, that parents, carers do take a step back and let a person be who they want to be and and don't try and live through them i mean i think we all fall into that trap sometimes yeah massively and i think from the day josh was born he was always super smart we used to call him dr josh and clever josh and smart josh which not only meant that when his brain started to fail him he felt utterly lost because that was his thing you know smart josh well if i haven't got my smart what what's going on what's left and secondly i think it was a huge pressure we just got him on this

single track of university a levels academia but of course nothing matters as much as having my son still alive nothing no piece of paper no degree no career nothing um and and we had to collectively give up on that but by giving up on that, it meant that we embraced Josh exactly how Josh is. And just to have Josh be and have Josh here is the only thing that matters. That's the writer, Amanda Prowse. And you also heard from her son, Josh. And the book they've written together is called The Boy Between. Donna said, I just wanted to say thank you to Josh and his mum for sharing their story.

If you'd changed the names, then that could have been mine and my son's story. In the series and the timing of the development of the mental health issues, reducing and changing expectations of life's goals, in the feelings, the frustrations and all the confusion. We're still in it, we're coping better and my son is now in his mid-twenties.

I think I'll play the interview to him. Hopefully it will help both of us know we are not alone. Donna, thank you for that and I hope things continue to progress for you and for your son. Karen said, this made me cry having had a daughter almost give up on things in her first term at LSE two years ago. I felt completely helpless.

She's fine now, in her final year, and philosophical about the struggle she and we went through. But I realised just how inadequately prepared we were for the kind of mental health issues this generation of kids face, very largely as a result of our expectations of them. Thank you, Josh and Mum, for being so open with your story. Yes, this really, really touched a lot of you. I know that interview and there are helpful links on the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. Now, our power list for 2020 is about our planet.

It will be revealed on the 16th of November and thank you again to the hundreds of you who took the time to suggest formidable and talented women who you know about who are trying to do something to improve the planet, to do something maybe for a local high street, for the environment. Just so many great ideas coming through, and we're very grateful to you. So we are going to talk between now and the reveal of the power list to some of the women who've been suggested for it.

One featured this week, it was Kat Hyde, one of the founders of Seagulls, a project which takes leftover paint and repurposes it. I also spoke to Ash, who's one of Kat's volunteers. Here's Kat on how the idea came about. Myself and Kate, we were both volunteering for a local project in Leeds. It was at a time when there was a lack of recycling and reuse awareness and no green bins. And both Kate and I are passionate about the environment and we're passionate about people. Kate was a single mum at the time and I was fresh out of uni and we really wanted to find a way to bring recycling and reuse awareness

to our local community in Leeds and provide jobs for ourselves and others. Right, and it's a great idea, but how did you start it? So Kate and I spent several years in Kate's kitchen wondering what we might actually be able to do. We held the belief that one man's rubbish is another's gold. We wanted to be able to make money out of recycled or reusable material. And so we spent quite a bit of time talking to Leeds City Council, talking to lots of different people and wondering what material we might actually be able to reprocess. Somebody suggested paint and we thought why not and the rest is history as they say. Right well I mean

everyone, I know I'm no exception, has got half-used tins of paint lurking around. And what is it about paint that makes it so difficult to recycle? It's predominantly very, very messy and very labour-intensive. So we collect the paint from the waste sites, the council tips. So we have to collect all the paint tins, we have to bring them back to seagulls, we reprocess them with spatulas and drills, not very technological. And we make full tins of paint. So we're diverting paint from landfill.

Right, OK, it's a really daft question, but doesn't paint go off? It can go off, yeah. You know about it, though. If you open a paint tin and you get a smell of eggs, rotten eggs, then you know it's off or it's lumpy. But it's kind of just looking at it by eye and seeing whether you think it's reusable or not. OK. And Ash, how did you get involved? So I got involved through like an employment scheme for young people.

Basically, I was unemployed. I was 16 years old and I couldn't sign on for anything until I was 18. So as soon as I got signed on, they sent me on this young people scheme called Head Start. And basically that got you involved in volunteering for work experience just so you could get it on your CV. Right. And I told them I like artsy stuff. Yeah. Involved in, like, volunteering, like, for work experience, just so you could get it on your CV. Right. And I told them I like artsy stuff. Yeah.

And they said Seagulls is the best place for me. Right, that you might find a home there. And you have, haven't you? Yeah, definitely. What was your first my room, basically. Depression, anxiety, and I never really saw anything different than my four walls. Really? So going somewhere where I knew there was going to be a few people was really, really scary for me. Oh, it must have been, yeah. So did you say anything the first couple of times you went?

So the first time I went, we had, like, a little meeting, like, interview, and I was shaking. But as soon as I got out of the interview with Kat and Kate, I kind of slumped back into myself and just got anything they told me to do. I just did it and didn't really speak to anyone. You've made quite a lot of progress. You're talking to a lot of people now.

Yeah. Well, I'm so chuffed for you that it's worked out. I mean, do you get on with the messy side of it? Because it does, I mean, Kat did did make clear this is messy work this oh yeah i love getting messy any job that's messy i just love sticking my hands into it and getting involved really yeah have you got a favorite paint color ash um i like like say cherry red i love the dark reds um but they're very hard to make in the mixing area are they why just um so with reds you can't really add any pigment to them to like dye them in a certain way because if you add red pigment it just goes pink basically oh i see right yeah yeah you've

got to get that balance absolutely right well it sounds really such a good project and clearly kat you've made an enormous difference to the lives of lots of people i mean ashley's certainly speaks very powerfully for the um the work you've done yeah that's the important thing about seagulls it's as much about the environment as it is about the people yeah kate and i have always been 100 passionate about social justice and helping people and it's not about trying to solve people's problems but it's about trying to provide a safe and supportive space to rebuild their lives and confidence cat hide one of the co-founders with her colleague kate of seagulls. And you also heard from Ash, who really has got a lot out of her involvement with that project.

Well done to everyone involved there. Now, if you're lucky, probably like me, one of your earliest and happiest memories will be of cuddling up close to somebody you trusted and either being read to or reading to them. And this week on Woman's Hour, the award-winning author Maggie O'Farrell, best known as a novelist,

has written her first book for children and she was on Woman's Hour talking to Chloe Tilly this week. It's called Where Snow Angels Go and it's a reassuring story for children about building resilience. Here's Maggie. The character was something I made up in the back of an ambulance

because my daughter suffers from anaphylactic shock. And one of the lesser known symptoms of that is that you suddenly get really, really cold, that your blood pressure drops and your teeth start chattering because you're so cold. She was quite young and she was very frightened. And just to reassure her, I said, just totally out of the blue, it's OK, don't worry, you're cold because there's a snow angel behind you and he's wrapping his wings around you. And so the character kind of, he sort of took up residence inside our house and my children wanted to know more about him.

So I made up other stories surrounding him. And then I actually went on book tour and I wrote them a letter every day and I was writing a longer story about him. And when I got back, my youngest daughter said to me, I really want to see pictures with this. She said, can you do? And I said definitely not because I was shocking at drawing I couldn't do it at all so at that point I thought well maybe I could make it into into a proper book with with the help of an illustrator and it is beautifully illustrated by Daniela Jaglenka Teresini really yes lovely lovely images but what's interesting about this book and I read it actually with one of my daughters, is it's got a real magical element, but it's also quite dark in places, isn't it?

Yes, well, I think, you know, I do think that, you know, we all read books because we need to sort of listen to the narratives of others to give us a roadmap for life. You know, we all need pointers or guidance in how we can react or cope with certain situations or problems or, you know, personalities of others that we might come up against. And fiction and stories give us that, you know, they give children a sort of reminder because you can think to yourself, you know, I mean, I remember thinking to myself, what would Anne of Green Gables do in this scenario? And I do think that children of all ages need books that don't shy away from difficult things. Your children had challenges didn't they I mean you mentioned about you about your daughter's anaphylactic shock she had serious allergies I know that your son when he was very little also had meningitis do you think that a lot of what you've lived through and and you've

experienced with your children has sort of fed into this story here with Sylvie. Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are parts of my childhood and also parts of the childhood of all three of my children woven into the book. My youngest daughter particularly, when she reads the book, she likes to flip through the pages to find the chapter about her, which is about Sylvie falling in the sea. And I completely understand that and I respect that.

And so she just likes to be read those particular four pages. But that's quite difficult then. I mean, that must have been traumatic, your daughter falling into the sea. So to put that in a book, it must have been hard. Well, it wasn't. It wasn't. You know, I think all fiction is a palimpsest of things that you completely make up or things that you might draw from other people and also things that have happened to you or the people around you.

I think all fiction is that kind of complicated patchwork of those things. But once you've taken an event from your own life and recast it in the lives or the mouths of somebody else and redrafted it and rewritten it and sort of pinned it down into punctuation and prose and grammar, it does place that event at arm's length for you. In the book, Sylvie does worry that she has a snow angel who protects her, but other people might not necessarily have a snow angel if they've never created one in the snow. And I remember the points where her mother says nothing bad is going to happen. But Sylvie kind of doesn't quite believe her she's not being fobbed off is she and was that an important message that you wanted to get across?

Yes absolutely I think you know it's quite obvious in 2020 that life doesn't always go to plant and that life isn't all kittens and rainbows and roses and I think children can't be fobbed off I think children need to know the truth I I mean, obviously, you need to metabolize the truth and hand it to them in a form that they can understand and you maybe don't need to tell them everything. But I think saying to a child, everything's fine, particularly at the moment, it isn't going to wash, even with a small child, you know, because everybody can see that the world is different at the moment. You know, so I think you need to be honest with children, maybe sort of an edited version of honest, perhaps. I wonder whether you were worried about switching to a children's book after the success you've had as a novelist, because children can be quite brutal critics, can't they?

Absolutely. Very, very honest critic. I mean, I was, you know, because there's no guarantee, even if you can write a full length grown up novel novel that you can suddenly sort of switch I guess switch to writing stories for children you know it's a very specific skill and not necessarily transferable at all but I am lucky that I have three quite willing guinea pigs in the house and I and I did read it to them in its various drafts and as you say they'll give you fantastic instant sort of editorial feedback you know because if you are reading something and maybe the narrative is sagging a little bit in the middle, they will just get up and walk away. So it's useful while a little bit heartbreaking at times. But I think the main thing I found really interesting about writing for children is that the narrative needs to be simplified, but you mustn't talk down to them because I think children always know that. They have an absolute, very finely tuned antennae for anyone who's slightly patronizing

them. And I also read it aloud to myself, which I never do with my grown-up books. I found myself always in my office, reading it aloud and sort of listening to the cadence of it. And I think the other real joy, actually, of writing this book was, you know, I realized that I had to carve out spaces in the narrative for Daniela to take the reins of the story. I wanted there to be a symbiosis between my words and her beautiful watercolours. And there are definitely places in the narrative where she is telling a story and there are things in the pictures that children can see, which aren't necessarily in the words. You were ill as a child. Were stories important to you to kind of get you through that period? So somebody lent me lots of different story takes. I'd never seen them before. And I had a tape player by my bed in the hospital.

And I listened to, I think it was Beatrix Potter and my naughty little sister over and over and over again. And I still know those stories off by heart. It's extraordinary. You know, when I open them up to read them to my children, there's a part of my brain where that engine has obviously been running for, how long is it now? Forty years, actually, since that happened. So, no, that was the thing that absolutely kept me going all the way through my confinement. And kids do need stories, they do need escapism and it's so important for kids to read. But many adults stop reading to children, don't they, when they can read themselves. I was thinking the other day,

I still read to my eight-year-old, but my 11-year-old, who's an absolute bookworm, actually I kind of let her get on with it. But you're an advocate for saying, actually, don't do that. Keep reading to your children, even when they are proficient readers. I would say, yeah, I would say as much as you possibly can, and for as long as you possibly can, keep reading. I mean, obviously, you know, I read to my 11-year-old every day, and she reads a chapter to herself, and then I will read a chapter to her, and we'll talk about it together you know there is nothing that replaces um that kind of bubble that you get into with the child when you're sharing a story or a narrative with them and you can talk about it and you're both inhabiting this imaginative space it's irreplaceable so please I would always urge people to carry on

reading to your child as long as they want I mean I don't read I don't read to my 17 year old anymore but I read to him until he was probably about 11 or 12. We read a separate book to the one that he was reading to himself. And actually, earlier this year, he caught shingles, and he was very miserable, and he was so unhappy, and he had a fever. And I read to him a Saki story. It was just one day. I sat down.

I said, OK, I'm going to read to you. And it had an amazing effect on you. There's something very very very special about being read to and also a sort of carer sharing a story with a child so please please keep reading to your children if you can maggie o'farrell with some great advice she was talking to presenter chloe tilly on woman's hour this week join me if you can first thing on monday morning we're asking about the advice you get when you're told you're expecting a baby with Down syndrome. If that's something you've been through

or if it's something you'd like more information on, make sure you're with us. Of course, there's also the Woman's Hour podcast, which comes your way after the programme is broadcast on the radio. It's six days a week and always with additional material, so you don't need to miss anything on the programme. And once again, but it does bear repeating, thanks to you for keeping faith with the programme

during these difficult times. And thanks to my colleagues too. Yes, honestly, for all their hard work and the fact that they're still coming in and still keeping the show on the road. We'll see you Monday morning, two minutes past 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.