Woman's Hour - Supreme Court Judgement, Roblox, Novelist Stephanie Yeboah, Singer/songwriter Georgia Crandon

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

The UK Supreme Court has ruled unanimously that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex. The decision came following a six-year legal case between the Scottish government and the women's rights group For Women Scotland, regarding equalities legislation. Kylie Pentelow is joined by legal commentator Joshua Rozenberg to discuss this decision.Roblox is the UK’s most popular game platform for children aged 8-12, but what are the risks? Kylie speaks to Hannah Estcourt, the Associate Director from Revealing Reality about their research into the risks facing young users, and BBC Senior Reporter Graham Fraser explains how the platform works and why some parents have concerns.Stephanie Yeboah is a writer, journalist, and body image advocate. She joins Kylie to discuss her debut romantic comedy novel, Chaotic Energy - a story full of heart, humour, and honesty, following a confident Black woman – Temz - navigating work, love, and social media mishaps. Rising star of classic retro music Georgia Crandon joins Kylie to talk about her music, upcoming tour and overcoming social anxiety in the music business, and she performs live in the studio. Presented by Kylie Pentelow Producer: Louise Corley

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Thank you very much for your company, we've got plenty coming up today, including… It's a video game loved by children, but new research about Roblox has raised concerns about what young players might be exposed to. I'll be finding out what, if anything, parents can do. Also, the author of a new rom-com joins me in the studio. Stephanie Yabowa is a body image advocate, and her main character Thames is unapologetically confident in her body. She

even lists the things she likes about herself. So I want to hear from you about this. We're often good at putting ourselves down, aren't we? But today I want to hear the qualities that you love about yourself, so don't be shy about it. You can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website too, or send us a WhatsApp message or voice notes using the number 03700100444. I'm very much looking forward to hearing your positive image stories. Also on the programme, we'll have a live performance from singer-songwriter Georgia Crandon,

whose music has been described as passionate and unique, but she'll also be talking to me about her social anxiety and how that's impacted her as she's navigated the music industry. And the hockey player who's been made an MBE for services to inclusive sportswear for women and girls will be talking to Tess Howard, who said it was quite ridiculous as she was simply campaigning to wear shorts. But first, as you'll have heard yesterday, the UK Supreme Court ruled unanimously that

the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex. The decision came following a lengthy legal case six years between the Scottish Government and the Women's Rights Group for Women Scotland. The group says it's grateful for the decision after a long road of legal battles, while charity Scottish Trans urges people not to panic. Or to help us unpick what this decision means, I'm joined by legal commentator, Joshua Rosenberg. Thanks very much for your company, Joshua. Good morning, hi.

Let's start with that ruling then. Can you give us a bit of an explanation of why this case was in the Supreme Court? It was a challenge to a decision of the Scottish courts and it was all about a perfectly laudable attempt to get more women on the boards of Scottish public bodies. There was a target of 50% and in defining whether they'd reach 50% the Scottish government and the Scottish Parliament said that you could include women who were trans women who had a gender recognition certificate.

That was challenged by the Women's Group for Women Scotland as you've said and that was what the court in Scotland decided that it did include trans women and then the Supreme Court as you say overturned that yesterday in interpreting the Equality Act to mean when it says women biological women. Does that mean then there was a lack of clarity prior to this ruling? There was. Baroness Faulkner of the Equality and Human Rights Commission has been talking this morning and has welcomed the clarity but her organisation was really on the wrong side because she, like the

Scottish government, argued that terms like sex and man and woman included people who had gender recognition certificates and the Equality and Human Rights Commission recognized that this caused difficulty, pregnancy and maternity, the protection against sexual orientation, the fact that lesbians and gay men might be precluded from forming associations of their own, and so on. And they, the Equality Commission, said, well, Parliament needs to sort this out. And what the Supreme Court said yesterday is it was striking that the Equality Commission said, well, Parliament needs to sort this out. And what the Supreme Court said yesterday is it was striking that the Equalities Commission

had advised the UK government of the problems that it saw. And that suggested that its understanding of the law, that women included trans women in terms of how you define them, that was not the correct interpretation and that was one of the reasons that the Supreme Court came gave for overruling that view. We'll hear from Baroness Faulkner in a moment but for those who might have listened to the judgment I'm guessing not many people will have heard the whole thing because it was 16 minutes,

46 seconds to deliver and the full document is actually 88 pages long. So can you explain briefly if you can so our listeners can understand what the judges have actually ruled? Yes what they've ruled is is very simple when parliament used the terms man and woman in the Equality Act 2010 it was referring to biological sex, not acquired gender. That's really all they've decided. The rest of it is how you interpret it and the sort of guidance which the Equalities Commission is going to publish in the future. And Judge Lord Hodge gave nine decisions for this decision, nine reasons, sorry, for the decision. Can you give us a bit of a summary?

Yes, certainly. The first is that they rejected the idea which came from the Scottish Appeal Court, the inner house of the Court of Session, that you could interpret the word woman in two different ways. I've already referred to pregnancy and maternity, obviously that refers to biological women, but they thought it might have a different meaning used in different circumstances. They also were concerned that it was going to be very difficult for bodies which deal with trans people to know whether somebody has a gender recognition certificate because it's a private matter, you don't have to produce it, nobody can ask for it, and so there would be two subgroups, some of whom would be entitled to the benefits that the Scottish government thought they should have and some of whom wouldn't.

So it was really a question of trying to understand what Parliament meant. The court said it was a matter of statutory interpretation. The court went so far as to say we're not laying down a general interpretation on the meaning of gender or sex or defining the word women other than when it is used in the provision of the Equality Act. It was really just a question of working out what Parliament must have meant. Now we mentioned this briefly but the UK government stated the decision provides clarity for service providers such as hospitals,

refuges, sports clubs. The Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Baroness Faulkner, spoke on the Today program this morning. She was asked to provide clarity on what this ruling means for those single-sex services. Single-sex services like changing rooms must be based on biological sex. If a male person is allowed to use a women-only service or facility, it isn't any longer single-sex, then it becomes a mixed sex space. But I have to say there's no law that forces organizations, service

providers to provide a single sex space and there is no law against them providing a third space, an additional space, such as unisex toilets for example or changing rooms. Baroness Faulkner there. So Joshua, what does this mean in practice? You know, how will those institutions like hospitals, schools, offices, to name but a few, be expected to respond then to this ruling? They're not going to ask people for birth certificates or passports or anything like that. And I suppose a trans woman who can pass as a woman will be admitted, nobody will know

otherwise and many people would say that was fair enough. But if somebody says, well, I identify as a woman today or I've identified as a woman for a period of time and they are clearly not a biological woman, they may well be turned away. They can be turned away. Indeed, I think it would be unlawful for them to be admitted to single sex spaces. Those are only permitted in certain limited circumstances. Hospitals, for example, communal accommodation, changing rooms, that sort of thing, where dignity and privacy demand segregation of the sexes.

It obviously doesn't go as far as overturning this long-established principle that women should get the same pay for the same work but it does mean that people who haven't really read this judgment or really understood it will be able to say well look a woman is a biological woman you're not a biological woman you're not entitled to come in here. Will they be obligated to make those changes then and I guess what then are the consequences if they don't make those changes? They could be challenged in the courts if they don't make changes that are necessary

but I come back to the fact that this is a fairly narrow judgement as a matter of law. All it does is interprets the Equality Act but yes if somebody wants to bring a claim under the Equality Act they might have, if somebody wants to bring a claim under the Equality Act, they might have been able to the day before yesterday, they won't be able to today. And if somebody is challenging the way that a public body and organization is administering the Equality Act and that they're letting in trans people in circumstances

where they should not to a single single sex space for example, well that could be challenged as well. So I think it does give guidance throughout the United Kingdom as to how the law should be applied, but in terms of what it decides, it's a fairly narrow case on a fairly narrow appeal from Scotland. This has got a lot of coverage hasn't it in the media, made a lot of headlines. How do you now expect the next few months to look as the impact of this ruling is realised? I think the first question for the UK government is whether there's any need for a change in legislation. The Times newspaper is saying

that the government should repeal the Gender Recognition Act. I don't think it's going to rush to do that. I don't think people are really arguing that the Equality Act should be amended. What they are saying is there should be guidance, not just guidance from bodies like the Equality and Human Rights Commission, but guidance from employers, large employers, small employers. How do they deal with equality at work? How do they deal with, as you say, unisex toilets or other facilities they provide for staff. This will obviously have pleased associations, single sex associations, lesbian groups and so on, but it will have an impact in all areas of society where people have been unsure,

I think, how to treat trans people. Now, as the judge said, and as we've reported, it's still unlawful to discriminate wrongly against trans people. You can't discriminate on grounds of gender reassignment, and that will remain the case. And so they shouldn't be as concerned as some of them are at this judgment but it does mean that there has been a shift in understanding of what

the law actually means. Joshua Rosenberg thank you very much we appreciate your insight there. This is of course a story we'll stay across as it continues to be debated and implemented in the coming weeks. You can also see the very latest on this by going to the BBC News website. Now, it's the biggest online game platform you've possibly never played, but if you have children, they almost certainly have. Roblox, most popular for children aged 8-12 in the UK, is played across the world, but new research conducted by Revealing Reality has raised some concerns about what young users may be exposed to, with some findings described as deeply disturbing, particularly around online safety and access to adult content.

Roblox insists it takes safety seriously and highlights the 40 new safety advancements introduced in 2024 alone and continues to commit to evolving their policies, technologies and moderation efforts to especially protect young people. Well to discuss this, this morning I'm joined by Hannah Estcourt, Associate Director at Revealing Reality who was involved in that research and also BBC senior technology reporter Graham Fraser. Thank you both for your time here on Woman's Hour. Good morning.

So Graham, I want to start with you. Many parents listening will be aware of what Roblox is, but for those who are unfamiliar with it, can you just paint a bit of a picture of what it is? Of course. Well, put simply, Roblox is a massive virtual world of millions of games. Many of these games are user generated and they're known as experiences.

And some of these are games. They have game players. You may have a football game where you can play against other players. Other games are not so much with gameplay. They're just areas where people can hang out and talk to each other. Now, when you sign up to join Roblox, it will ask you for your email and your birthday, and then you can customize your character called avatars and you can make them look how you want.

There's an in-game currency on Roblox, it's called Robux, and then you can buy things for your avatar, like accessories, and then when you're playing, you have games that will be recommended to you, and part of those recommendations are things like maturity levels. And so, as you said in your introduction, Kyle, it's a very, very popular platform for young people in particular. The averages, in last year there was an average of 80 million players per day across the world on Roblox And about roughly 40% of them are under the age of 13. In the UK It is the most popular site for gamers aged between 8 and 12

It's one of the world's largest gaming platforms that has more monthly users than Nintendo Switch and Sony PlayStation combined but for many years it has had claims against it that some children on the platform are being exposed to adult content and harmful content through the games. Well let's bring in Hannah here. So Hannah you and your team are revealing reality, spent hours exploring Roblox firsthand. What was the motivation behind your research going into this? Yes, good morning. I mean at Revealing Reality lots of what we do is talking to children and young people about all parts of their lives and for the

generation that are currently growing up, lots of that is happening online. And so a really important part of what we do is exploring these platforms as children themselves might experience it. As you've said, it's a hugely popular platform and lots of, especially some of the younger children we talk to are regularly playing on it. So after an initial exploration of the platform earlier this

year started to show some of the suggestive and more sexualized environments children can access on roadblocks, this prompted us to take a deeper look into what is available on the platform and in particular looking at what does it look like when children and adults end up in the same space as online and what these interactions look like? So what did you find? I think, I mean, the most concerning thing we found was just how easy it was for child and adult aged accounts to interact in some of those more social or interactive environments.

In fact, when we were in some of these social hangouts ourselves, observing what was happening, it's worth saying there were often users that appeared to be or sounded like adults that were engaging with users that sounded very much like children. In fact, as far as we could tell, there appeared to be very little to stop an adult with potentially inappropriate intentions from initiating conversations with children children with ways of kind of guiding them into more private spaces whether it was in the game itself so going to more private rooms or private areas or even using very sort of thinly coded ways of asking

users for their usernames or handles for other social media accounts to kind of move those conversations across platforms. Roblox have issued us with a long response, a long detailed response. And in terms of the text, they said that your report includes frequent references to freely communicating through text in Roblox experiences. They say this is highly misleading because it ignores the fact that in-game text chat is subject to our built-in chat filters and moderation rules for communication,

which are designed to block inappropriate content, as well as personal information sharing and offsite links. But what you're saying is that people are finding ways to talk about going onto a different platform to communicate. Is that correct? Absolutely. I mean, it can be very, very simple things, you know, for changing vowels into numbers or even just telling people to read a message backwards and then writing a username backwards. So yeah, very possible from what we've seen.

And what about the adult content that you talked about that avatars are potentially exposed to that you found in your research? Can you just talk us through, particularly for people who don't know the game, how do you see that? Yeah, so as Graham said, there are lots of different experiences on Roblox and some of them are set up to kind of mimic

real-world experiences. And we saw that child aged accounts can access some of those experiences that have more adult themes. So this included some more suggestive or sexualized outfits or behaviors or environments. So that could be, you know, a nightclub where an avatar can dress up or try on fishnet stockings or fetish accessories or avatars that can exhibit sexually suggestive poses or behaviours. You created avatars for the purpose of this, a 9-year-old avatar and a 42-year-old avatar, and they could interact with each other, you say, without restriction. What do you mean by that? So when we went onto the platforms with these kind of test accounts that we'd created, so fictional users, different ages as a child, but also as an adult over 40, we could see that the avatars were able to communicate

with each other when they're over, when it uses over the age of 13, this can be in direct messages, but for those that are registered as under 13, this is on the Facebook, what looks like a more public messaging platform, message board, sorry. But when these messages are coming up in speech bubbles

above an avatar's head, and you can also encourage avatars to move into more private zones, so this could be a separate room of a nightclub or to a specific hotel room, these conversations can become much more private in how they feel. You of course manufactured that relationship. So are you able to say if it is at all likely that, you know, for example, a nine-year-old and 42-year-old would be likely to meet and interact on this platform?

I mean, so with the avatars methodology, it's about exposing the potential of what can happen as opposed to kind of making any claims about likelihood. As I said, from what we could hear when we were in these spaces, you can hear conversations that are happening between some of the avatars and I mean they do appear to be adults and children interacting. Graham, can I bring you in here? You've actually heard from parents who have raised concerns about their children's experiences on Roblox. What kind of stories have they told you? Yes, I recently wrote an article for the BBC website after the CEO of Roblox did a big interview with the BBC's technology editor Zoe Kleinman and

we did a documentary. There was lots of online coverage and I spoke to a lot of parents at that time and many of them highlighted some positive experiences that they have on Roblox and how they feel it's a very safe place for their children to play, but others highlighted a much darker picture sadly and to take a few of them, Amir from Leeds, that's not his real name, we're changing his name to protect the identity, but Amir from Leeds, that's not his real name, we're changing his name to protect the identity, but Amir from Leeds told me that his son was being ruined by Roblox, that was his words. His son is a 15 year old and he's addicted to the platform according to his father. He can play it up to 14 hours a day and when I was speaking to Amir he was telling

me about times where the family had been on holiday in France and Italy and the son would just want to stay in the hotel room, wouldn't want to go and visit any of the sites or want to spend any time with the family. He was so engaged in the platform and no matter what the father had tried to do he just couldn't get his son off the platform his son was using multiple accounts even when he was maybe temporarily banned and From roblox because there's maybe something he had said or or did he was waking ways around the platform so he could continue to use it and the The father was Amir was just telling me and how much he was trying his very best to

the father was, Amir was just telling me how much he was trying his very best to try and wean his son off the platform by things like playing cards, talking, watching YouTube together, that's what he said to me. So in response to that, Roblox highlighted to us about the, you know, there is measures on the platform where parents when they have rights with their children's accounts they can limit the use of time and screen time on those accounts. And another person I spoke to again not the real name it was Sally from the north of Scotland she told me that her nine-year-old daughter was groomed on Roblox at the end of last year and she'd reported it to the platform and has never received a response to it. She said that her child was in a game where people were mimicking real life and they were role playing marriage. This user offered the child in game currency

Robux as I was talking about earlier in exchange for a picture. The child didn't do it and then went on to tell her mother. It's important to say here that on Robux you can't exchange pictures with other people but as Hannah was talking about you know there's been lots of reported evidence of people trying to get a younger users off the platform onto another platform where they can continue to communicate. Next Thursday Graham, Ofcom is about to publish its final children's codes under the Online Safety Act which could potentially be a big moment in how the UK protects young people online. So from your perspective do you think these kinds of issues are going to be addressed in that? Well online safety is

something that I talk about a lot in my job and my colleagues in the technology team talk a lot about. It is a huge issue and it's not just with roadblocks you know we talk about lots of different platforms, social media companies, big search engines, lots of different areas. The Online Safety Act is a huge piece of legislation that was passed a couple of years ago and it's just been implemented now. But there has always been criticisms that it doesn't go far enough. Some very prominent campaigners say it doesn't go far enough. And so I think we'll just have to wait and see with Ofcom having these new rules whether parents listening at home, whether they think that the

companies are being looked at properly or whether the Online Safety Act will need to become much stronger over time. And just finally where can people go for advice? Well as I say Ofcom are going to be legislating the new online safety, so there's lots of advice there. There's lots of charities who work in this space such as NSPCC and there's lots of resources online on the BBC website of course for parents to look into to understand you know what rules are coming

into place and also how they can continue to keep their children safe. It must be said that a lot of the measures that Roblox have introduced in recent months have been towards child safety and particularly for accounts 13 and under they've continued to innovate in this space they say and they will continue to do so. They say that Robox have said that you know child safety has been important to them since the very start of their company so they will continue to innovate as well and to give parents opportunities to control their children's accounts via parental controls. Okay Graham Fraser and Hannah Escort, thank you very much.

Well, we've had a very detailed response, as I was saying, from Roblox. They say Roblox is a founding partner of LAND in the first cross-platform signal sharing program for companies to share information and take action on bad actors moving from platform to platform, something we're talking about there. They also said we have zero tolerance for behaviour that may endanger minors, including any predatory behaviour such as attempting to befriend a minor in order to manipulate and exploit them, sexualising minors in any way or engaging in sexual conversation with minors. We ban anyone found to be engaging in such behaviour and where appropriate, report them to appropriate

authorities. And also in his first ever BBC interview, Graham mentioned that co-founder and CEO David Buzuki spoke to Zoe Kleinman about improving child safety, AI and his ambition to turn roadblocks into the future of communication. You can find that on the BBC website. And also if you've been affected by anything discussed on the show, please head to BBC Action Line. Now we've been asking you for all the things that you like about yourself, it's because I'll shortly be speaking to the author of a new book where the main character lists all the things that she likes about herself. I know we don't normally talk about this do we? We're normally very critical of ourselves but this is an opportunity

to talk about the things you like about yourself. So one comment here says, I'm listening with my daughter who's 11, who says that she loves her feet. She likes them because they are narrow and the toes look nice. She is strengthening them up so she can go on point in her ballet lessons. How fantastic is that? So do keep them coming in. You can text 84844 and of Tess Howard is a Commonwealth gold medal winning hockey player and yesterday she collected her MBE at a ceremony at Windsor Castle. However, it's her efforts off the pitch that's prompted her most recent accolade. The 26-year-old has campaigned even for years for hockey players to be able to wear shorts rather than the traditional skort. She's now officially been honoured for her services to inclusive sportswear for women and girls

and I'm delighted to say that Tess joins me now. First of all, congratulations. How did it feel in that moment then collecting your MBE? Thanks so much for having me. It was really surreal and really enjoyable and to have the Princess Royal who also is an Olympian do it, it's really really special and my grandparents were watching with great enjoyment. It was brilliant. Let's talk about why you were collecting it under that title for inclusive sportswear. How did that feel? Yeah, really, really special. Inclusive sportswear is the name of a nonprofit that I've just created to help schools, clubs and national governing bodies have inclusive sports kit policies, because sports kits should never be the reason that you drop out or not enjoy

sport. That's a very simple tagline and it felt really special that my efforts to do that in my own sport, I had to do it first in my own sport before you go and start telling other sports to do it. So yeah that's really really important to me. And what did Princess Anne say to you? Do you remember? Gosh it was all a bit of a blur. No, we talked a bit about the Olympics and yeah it was a nice moment where I explained that I'd been campaigning for so long to wear a pair of shorts. So yeah I think it was just really nice to be acknowledged that those efforts and the nature of a pair of shorts whilst it is all about choice in hockey. It took a lot to sort of change perceptions and that bravery.

So I feel like that's something that I think is really important about the whole ceremony because it goes back such a long time. And you said it was, I read that you said, you can tell me if this is true, that it was quite ridiculous for you to be given this for simply campaigning for shorts. Well, yeah, I think perhaps that interview was cut short slightly. But yeah, the click-baity, yeah, it did feel ridiculous because I don't think Sports Kit should ever be a barrier. So that's why for me it's ridiculous because it shouldn't have been a barrier in the first place.

So it's really wonderful to be awarded, but I hope that we get Sports Kit policy in a place where it's simply about enabling participation, performance, enjoyment for all. Because as we know, sports kit is such a big reason girls particularly drop out of sport. Youth Sport Trust found only one in four girls were confident in their PE kit. So that's the root of what I'm trying to tackle. And whilst I was at the Olympics wearing shorts, hopefully being a flag bearer for the movement, it's really around that, you know, that under 12 girl who just wants to play and feel comfortable in her body.

Totally. I remember having to wear gym pants for gymnastics. And, you know, it was just horrendous. I hated it. It was horrendous. I wasn't confident at all. And it completely put me off completely. You was horrendous. I wasn't confident at all. And it completely put me off completely. Well, there you go. Everybody has their own story. And that's what's so wonderful. And that's why I created the Inclusive Sportswear Charter. It's five principles that all sports kit policies should be led by. And if that goes across all levels of sport, you hopefully see a movement where we stop having these headlines around not being able to wear a hijab, not being able to wear leggings, these silly stories that just are really around pedantic tradition rather

than enabling participation. You've spoken to us about your campaign before but can you just tell us when it first started, what initially kind of galvanised you to make this your mission? I guess what initially kind of galvanized you to make this your mission? Well I'd always felt it was a bit odd that we trained in shorts every day and then played matches and scorts and then we got a new batch of kit and it was really really uncomfortable and it finally brought to life that why should I be so uncomfortable playing at the top of my game? You know we were all stretching our scorts before the games, you know, over chairs. It was ridiculous. And then I realized actually I'm so comfortable wearing shorts. Why can't I wear shorts? Look to the rules. You all have to be uniform. So we decided to challenge what does that uniformity mean. At the same

time I was conducting my research into gendered school sport uniforms and the effects on girls participation. So I put the two together and found that sports kit is one of the most underrated reasons that girls drop out of sport. And then you do that wider. That's also related to disability, to neurodiversity and so many other categories. It's really important that you sort of lean in on what actually is the issue. And it turns out sports kit policy. So, um, my campaign was to make sure that we never have to have these issues again. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Never be talking about it. I mean, there has been a move away too, from, um, women in sport wearing white just in case they're, they have a leak during.

Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. Just briefly, I'm guessing you're welcoming that move. Well, I think it's really around the support that women are getting around their periods because obviously when you're a teenager, it's really difficult. So I would advocate and Inclusive Sports where guidance that we've created on our new platform

says that white should be avoided at young age because it's much easier, you don't know when your periods are coming. But when you move into more traditional shorts, traditional sports like cricket and tennis, I don't think white necessarily needs to be ridded, it's around creating leak-proof underwear and clothing that supports women through all of their life stages. So I don't think we should ban a colour because that's... but especially at a young age you should definitely avoid it because you just never know when it's coming. Yeah, absolutely. It's great to talk to you Tessa Howard. Thank you so much and congratulations

on your MBE. Thanks so much for having me. Now if you've ever felt like all those things in your life like love, career and how you feel about yourself were colliding in the most chaotic of ways, our next guest might just be your new literary best friend. Stephanie Yaboa, writer, journalist and body image advocate joins us today to talk about her debut romantic comedy, Chaotic Energy. It's a story full of heart, journalist and body image advocate joins us today to talk about her debut romantic comedy, Chaotic Energy. It's a story full of heart, humour and honesty, following a confident black woman, Thames, navigating work, love and social media mishaps along the way with a bit of a few unexpected

twists and turns and Stephanie has joined me in the Women's Art Studio. Thanks very much Stephanie for coming in. Hello, thank you so much for having me. Well congratulations on your first novel. Chaotic Energy, it's used by millennials, Gen Z. Can you just explain what it means? So for me Chaotic Energy is very much those circumstances where you just have a series of continuous unfortunate events, whether it's through work and you know you have one thing happening after the other, whether it's being in a really random diabolical situation in your love life and you find that these patterns repeat. So for me that I feel like that's what really encapsulates sort of that bubble of chaos where you just have all of these really random sporadic things happening over and over again within short periods of time.

Without spoiling it, what's the story about? So the story is about Thames, who is a woman based in South London, and she has everything going for her. She has a great career. She's got great friends. Her love life is kind of lacking, but basically to cut a long story short, on Instagram, she comes across someone that she quite likes the look of. And because her Instagram is kind of like a work account,

she doesn't have her photo on there. So as she gets to know this person, the person eventually asks, like people would, I'd love to see what you look like. And in a moment of panic, and I would say probably low self-esteem, she decides to catfish this person. And so what happens is this sort of transatlantic love story

that is kind of based on deceit and you know she cat essentially catfishes this guy and the whole story kind of wraps around whether she ever tells him or whether her friends intervene and it just becomes very chaotic over time. And by catfishing you mean I don't think it's a spoiler to say that she she sends a picture that isn't her. Yes, basically in a split moment decision she decides to send a picture of somebody who she thinks he will find a lot more visually attractive. Yeah, it's really interesting to me because she is, as we've been talking about, that body confidence thing. She's extremely confident and there's one scene where she's getting ready to go out and then, you know, she looks at herself, looks amazing

and feels really amazing when she goes out. So she does have this body confidence, yet still has that thing of thinking, I'm not gonna live up to an expectation. And yeah, and I think that's just so reminiscent of how we live in our everyday lives. Like she's a very confident woman. She's plus size, she's very happy in her body.

But the moment that she is confronted with somebody who she finds attractive, I think those little flecks of, oh my gosh, what if he doesn't like me? Or what if he doesn't like my body? And I think every now and again, we can be as confident as we can be, but there will be times when our confidence perhaps dips and goes through ups and downs.

And unfortunately for Thames, that was just one moment where she had a conflict of sort of having low self-confidence. Yeah. Well, I think it's useful if we hear a bit of it to hear what she's like. Let's hear a reading. I clambered groggily out of bed and started getting ready for work with the sweet melodies of Sam Cooke blasting in the background, serving as my early morning soundtrack. I started off each morning doing the same thing. I stared at myself in the mirror for a few minutes, traced my bumps and curves with my hands and my thighs that displayed a myriad of small moonlight craters of cellulite I had tried so desperately to get rid of as a teenager. My eyes casually flickered over the other markings on my thighs,

secretly self-inflicted during the lowest moments, but which I eventually came to accept and love. My small Jinyamit Adinkra tattoo signifying my Ghanian heritage stretched over my expanding rib cage, now resembling more of a raw shatch blob than an ancient African symbol. I opened up my journal and I wrote a list of the awesome things I liked about myself today. Number one, we are fans of the big lips today. No filler for me. Number two, my kinky curls look fabulous and bushy this morning, although they could do

with some leave-in conditioner, to be honest. Number three, my legs look a bit leaner, I suppose. Note to self, ask personal trainer about weighted lunges. 4. One of my back rolls is currently holding my thong in the right place above my hip and we love God's strong good soldiers. 5. The stretch marks have a slightly golden hue this morning, like thunderbolts. Not mad at them. I love it. It's so nice isn't it hearing that that positivity and honesty as well. We've been asking our listeners for their positive thoughts about themselves. We've had so many coming in. There's one here from Sarah who says what do I like about myself in terms of physical attributes I love my

long thick hair still luscious at the age of 60 only a little help needed from my hairdresser to keep it blonde. Another person here says the bit of me I love is my legs and my height, although it does make wearing heels annoying sometimes as I tower above all my friends. I suppose at least it makes me easy to spot if I lose anyone on a night out. And this one here from Maisie Endorse it, I love this. It says I like my brown eyes, which I've inherited from my dad. I've always been complimented on them and they are my nicest feature. Thanks so much everyone who's got in touch with this.

It's kind of hard to talk about those nice, the things you like about yourself, isn't it? Was it important for your main character to have that kind of confidence and not be like, you know, I guess a Bridget Jones who listed the things that she didn't like about herself. Absolutely with this book I wanted to encourage women to look at the positive things in their bodies and I think in today's age we are just so used to automatically looking at our bodies

through a critical lens and it's it can be really frustrating. I think it's easier for us to point out our flaws than to celebrate the things that make us special and make us unique. And I think the reason for that is because sometimes if you do point out something that you like about yourself, I think some people are quick to say, oh, you're being vain or you're being arrogant, you know, and it's just like, well, we should all be able to celebrate ourselves unapologetically and loudly. And hopefully, if enough of us us can do that then what that will go on to do is normalize the things that everybody seems to consider flaws. So like stretch marks for instance very very normal very common thing and practically every woman would have them.

Everybody has them but they're still treated with so much fear but if we can look at them and say oh you know it's you know silvery strands or golden strands across my skin it looks like paintwork it looks. But if we can look at them and say, oh, you know, it's, you know, silvery strands or golden strands across my skin, it looks like paintwork, it looks like art. If we can sort of change those negatives into positives, then they can be normalized so that young girls can grow up and see it being and having that representation on TV. A hairdresser I used to go to describe my grey hairis sparkles. I love that. I love it. You wrote Fatally Ever After, a fat black girl's guide to living life unapologetically. You explored your own life and experience as a plus size woman. I just want to ask you about the word fat. What do you think about that word being used?

For me, fat is purely a descriptive word and it took me a very long time to unlearn all of the negative connotations with that word because people use it as a negative, they use it as an insult. So when somebody calls somebody else fat, what you're saying is the way in which they present, the way that their body is shaped is somehow, you know, disgusting or ugly. And for me, I've always thought if somebody calling me fat is is the worst thing I can be then I think as a human being I'm doing Pretty well because I have so many great attributes and I think when it comes to desirability and body politics Everybody is beautiful regardless of how you show up in your body and your skin We're all beautiful

And so for me it was about reclaiming the word fat and just using it as a descriptive the same way that we would use tall, short, athletic, slim. These, I think for me, if I take the power out of the word, then somebody cannot use it towards me in a negative way, because I'll just respond back being like, well, yeah, I am fat. What else? What else about me? Do you have to say? And I noticed that people get very quiet after that because they have nothing that they can use against me. So I do encourage people to just use the fat as a descriptive word as opposed to an insult. Is Thames a bit of you? She's a lot of me. She's a lot of me. Right down to the South London, right down to her loving houseplants.

Like she definitely is based in terms of her personality. She has a bit of me in there. Oh Stephanie, it's so great to talk to you and it is a fun read, positive read. You were telling me as well you gave it to your mum to read which was a bit cringy because there are a few intimate scenes. There are, I mean, right. I mean, the actual first paragraph of the book is very intense.

So like when I gave it to her and I was just like, oh wait, what have I done? She's gonna read the first page. But luckily she likes it, so I'm very intense. So like when I gave it to her and I was just like, oh wait, what have I done? She's gonna be the first page. But luckily she likes it so I'm very happy. Our mums know it all don't they? Stephanie thanks so much and chaotic energy is out now. I just want to hear, I want to read you another comment that you've been sending us, your positive self image. This one here says, at 56 I took up quite serious exercise to avoid blood pressure medication following a high reading. I lost 20 kilograms and now adore circuit training, lifting weights, wild swimming and boxing.

I can't say I love looking at my body, but I love how despite not really taking care of it for the best part of 50 years, it's turned up and delivered for me when I needed it to, as I have two beautiful children, amazing husband, and now the fittest, healthiest, happiest I've ever been. We women must learn to appreciate what our bodies can and are here to do and it's my belief that it's way more than to be looked at and judged. Let's be kind to our bodies, ourselves and each other and learn to love being alive. Mandy and Lancashire, I'm going to take that with me throughout the day. That's fantastic. Thank you so much. Now, my next guest, musician and singer-songwriter, Georgia Crandon, has a retro 50s and 60s style and her music has been described by Pixie Lott as refreshingly

different. Now, she has a theatrical background and went to the American Musical Theatre Academy, but due to her social anxiety, she's found it difficult to navigate the music industry which is of course so often about networking and hanging out with other people in the industry. She joins me now and you're also going to be performing in a moment which I'm very excited about. Hi Georgia. Hi there, you okay? Yeah very well thank you, looking forward to hearing you perform. So we heard a bit of your new single there it's actually two songs isn't it? It is yes because one just wasn't enough. So tell me about how it kind of combines. Yes I wrote Jack quite a few years ago but I mean the story is all about going on a night out you know feeling

that kind of loneliness and you're kind of waiting for that one person to walk through the door and it felt like it needed a prequel so I ended up writing Ballad of a Bad Night Out and putting that on the beginning and the whole thing now kind of feels like a start to finish you know little mini film you know. How would you describe your music? That is such a difficult question for musicians because I don't know it's just everything that I've ever listened to just comes out in one. But yes, I'm mainly right about, you know, things that I struggle with internally. I'm not very good at speaking in conversation. I'm not the most articulate person. So my way of expressing that is by being at a piano and getting it

all out in a song, you know, and then performing it in front of people at a gig. And that's my moment to really, without interruptions, being able to say exactly how I feel. There is a kind of 50s, 60s vibe. Where does that come from, do you think? From my mum and dad, I guess. Growing up around the house, there was always music on, Motown, a lot of Elvis. It's the music that speaks the most to me because it's because of the vulnerability to it, you know, and how cinematic those, that style of music is. Your poise to play the piano, when did you first learn to play? I was about 10 or 11. I went around a

friend's house. I played guitar first but that never quite stuck and I went around a friend's house and there was a piano there and I'd never seen an upright piano in person before and I was just really drawn to it and she taught me a couple of songs and that was it. I was just, I was hooked. And were you instantly good at it? I instantly had a feel for it and I just, just an intrigue. I think that's all it takes to learn an instrument. Anyone can learn an instrument but it takes a lot of hard work to get your head around it, get it in your fingers, get it in your body and you've just got to really love it to continue to master it. We mentioned your social anxiety, how does that affect you now?

It's very difficult on gigs, not so much the gig but I would dread a gig weeks in advance because of the having to interact with people. So it's not the actual performance? It's not really the performance, a little bit I guess because it's the unknown you know am I going to mess up what's going to happen but it's mainly dealing with people before and after the show I struggle with that interaction I constantly overthink everything I'm doing it right now as I'm talking, just overthinking everything that I'm saying. I find it very difficult to relax around people, which is where alcohol kind of become a crutch for me. The first thing I do when I turn up to a gig is get a drink before soundcheck or speaking to anyone just so that I felt like I could. But since taking that

away about... So you've tried to phase that out? Yeah, because what will happen, I'll be the first one to soundcheck and then by the time I go on, you know, I'm hammered and it's not a good look. I don't like being in that state when I'm performing. So cutting back on that, it's made me very aware of the social anxiety and I'm trying to deal with it in a different way but the thing about gigging is as soon as I'm on stage that's the only time I ever really feel peace and calm which is quite crazy. Just to say I mean we really appreciate you talking to us if that's

you know if that's how it feels as well. So in the lyrics as well, you mentioned that that's how you can kind of get your feelings out there. So tell us about some of that. Let's talk about the song, The Girl, that you wrote. That's the first song I ever wrote, yeah. That was the first song I wrote. That was inspired by a woman who said, I got my first job when I was 18 and I was pouring pints behind a bar and social anxiety doesn't go down well in that kind of environment. And I was so painfully nervous about being at work and there was this girl who was a couple of years older than me and she was the first woman I'd ever met who was just so unapologetically herself. She was loud, outspoken, crass, but

still so charming and people were drawn to her, I think, because she was just so comfortable in who she was. She wasn't going to apologize to anyone. And I kind of, I saw that and kind of used that myself as a mask, I guess, for whenever I felt uncomfortable or anxious, I would then become this loud person, which worked when I was younger, you know. I don't regret doing that. I used to take that kind of character on stage with me a lot, but now as I'm getting older and I guess I'm maturing, I don't want to keep hiding behind a character. So at the minute I'm trying to practice being vulnerable, you know, and just being honest about how I'm feeling. You're about to perform Relapse. Can you just briefly explain what it's about? That's about the similarities between how falling in love can be very addictive and relating that to addictions to other things in life. It's a similar kind of rush.

Let's hear it then if you'd like to make your way over to the piano. This is Georgia Crandon performing one of her songs which is called Relapse. Georgia, that was absolutely wonderful. What a performance. Oh my goodness, goosebumps here. That was absolutely epic. Thank you. Georgia's single ballad of A Bad Night Out. Jack is out now and you can catch her tomorrow night playing at the Water Rats in London or if you happen to be in Germany, you can catch her on tour there from the end of April. Now I just want to bring you another comment here. We've been asking for your positive thoughts about yourself. And this one here from an ex-primary school teacher who says,

once a week, my class of eight year olds would take part in circle time. This involved one child sitting in the middle of the circle, whilst the others would say what they thought was special about that child. I would note the comments and make a certificate for that child to take home. They really enjoyed it. But then she says, I changed the format one day so that each child would say what was special about her or his self. I was amazed and saddened when they couldn't think of anything to say. So after that, we included sessions of what am I Good At? That was from Leslie. Thank you so much for all

your comments today. I will be back tomorrow with author Emma Gannon, who will be with me to talk about Table for One, her new novel which celebrates single life and taking time for yourself. And for the first time in history, girls will be singing at St Paul's Cathedral in the choir this Easter Sunday, so we'll be reflecting that too. Thanks very much for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm David Dimbleby and from the History Podcast and BBC Radio 4 this is Invisible Hands, the story of the free market revolution.

The free market isn't solving the problem of homelessness. Classic liberal values of free speech, free enterprise, free markets. A hidden force that changed Britain forever. Popular capitalism is a crusade. And the Invisible Hands that shaped it. I thought I was a conservative. I thought I was a conservative. There's a massive schism between those who believe in the continuity of our society and those who wish to shaped it. I thought I was a conservative. I thought I was a conservative. There's a massive schism between those who believe in the continuity of our society and those who wish to destroy it.

Listen to Invisible Hands on BBC Science now.