Woman's Hour - Suranne Jones, Housing, Eating disorders, Physicist Professor Dame Athene Donald

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Bafta-winning actor Suranne Jones is back on our screens with Maryland, a three-part drama about two sisters discovering that their mother was leading a secret life. Suranne, who plays the younger sister Becca, is also executive producer on the series. She joins Hayley to explain how the idea, which came to her in a dream, made it onto the small screen. A new law to be tabled in Parliament today would abolish no-fault evictions and make it illegal for landlords to refuse tenancies to those in receipt of benefits, as part of a long-promised overhaul of the private rental sector in England. Housing campaigners said the bill was a "huge opportunity" to improve the lives of the 11 million renters in England - but its still doesnt go far enough to help many renters, 40% of which are women. Melissa York, the assistant property editor at The Times and The Sunday Times & Polly Neate, Chief Exectuive of Shelter. Psychiatrists say they’re worried that some people with eating disorders are being offered palliative care, warning it is not a terminal illness and most people can recover. Carolyn Atkinson reports and Hayley talks to mental health campaigner Hope Virgo. Hayley talks to scientist and academic Athene Donald about her new book Not Just for the Boys which examines the historic societal exclusion of women from science and the systemic disadvantages women in science operate under. She looks at the common myths that science isn't creative and that it is carried out by a lone genius in an ivory tower, offering her perspective on what progress has been made, and how more is needed. Presenter: Hayley Hassall Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Studio Manager: Steve Greenwood

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Hayley Hassell and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, our first guest this morning is the fantastic actor and producer, Saran Jones, who's here to tell me all about her new drama, Maryland, which hits our TV screens next week. It's an intense look into the lives of two sisters whose world is literally turned upside down

when they find out a secret about their mum. Well, we'll have more on that later and how Saran came up with the concept in the first place. But it got us all thinking here on Woman's Hour that this could be something maybe you could relate to. Have you found out a secret about your parents that you never knew when you were younger? Maybe like in Maryland, you found out that your mum had a secret

or maybe you've discovered a sibling that you never knew about or maybe it's something more lighthearted. I remember my friend at school always thought his parents were actors and presumed that when they went out for the evening, they were performing their plays. He couldn't believe it when he was 18 and he found out they were strippers. Imagine learning that over the breakfast table. Well, honestly, I'd love to hear your stories.

You can text the show on 84844 or you can send us a message, of course, to 03700 100 444. Now, as the rental reform bill goes into the Parliament table today, promises are being made to ban no-fault evictions. However, it still doesn't stop landlords increasing the rent to force evictions. And with 40% of the rental market being women, and women paying more of their salary towards rent than men, we're asking if this bill goes far enough to protect women in rental accommodation now. And as more women are being diagnosed with eating disorders, Woman's Hour has found out that some women are being transferred away from medical support

and onto palliative care, an end-of-life care that can treat pain but does not aid recovery. Well, it's something that the Royal College of Psychiatrists are extremely worried about and they're concerned that some women are being denied the chance to recover. Our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, has spoken to two young women who actively wanted to tell us their stories. Well, you can text the programme on any of our subjects today, but don't forget to send me your stories of when you found out something about your parents that has completely changed your world. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, we're at Woman's Hour. And you can email us through our website. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using that number. It's 03700 100 444. Now, data charges may apply depending on your provider, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can and terms and conditions can be found on our website. But first

up let me introduce you to BAFTA winning actor Saran Jones. She's back on our screens next week with Maryland It's a three part drama all about two sisters who discover that their mother was leading a secret life and only after her mysterious death on the Isle of Man,

Saran, who plays younger sister Becca, and is also executive producer on the series, discovers a whole new world. Well, she joins me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome, Saran. It's so lovely to have you. Oh, thanks for having me. I can't wait to hear these stories from your listeners. I will try and read out as many as I can.

But the idea of Maryland came to you in a dream, which has massively intrigued me from the moments I heard about this. Tell me about that. So I've been developing with my company for a while now. And so Maryland is the first project that we've got off the ground. So I'll write things down or I'll hear someone talking and take people's stories, you know, and then kind of squirrel them away. But this was a dream. And all it was, was I remembered two sisters going into a house, hearing people talk about their mum and them not recognising that person.

So I wrote down double life, sister's house, and then it percolated. And I kept thinking about the logistics of a double life, sisters, house, and then it percolated. And I kept thinking about the logistics of a double life. And we usually see that on screen through the lens of the male gaze. So I thought, what if it was a woman? How would a woman do that and hide such a big secret? And then, of course, being greedy about women's stories, if we put two sisters, then we get to tell three female focused stories. So it was that really. It was just a small thought that grew and grew. And then we brought the normality of women's lives, actually, because as soon as it starts, you're hit by the normality, everything. I think, Becca, your character is trying to sort out the kids and breakfast and she's on the phone

and her husband's asking where the plasters are. And then she gets this devastating news. You kind of get the idea of a modern woman trying to juggle everything. And it's quite stark in its relationship to that, isn't it? Do you know what? I think it's like a very old fashioned TV in the nicest possible way. And Anne-Marie wrote it like a film because it's three parts and we just you know a lot of the stuff I do like I'm filming Vigil 2 at the moment it's thrills and spills and I just had a yearning to make something that I used to watch when I was younger you know like real kind of kitchen sink family drama. And so the normality, I love that you've picked that up.

I think it's that was really important to us that we put normal people into this extraordinary circumstance and see what it does to someone who isn't extraordinary themselves and hasn't actually give themselves a chance to learn who they are. And that's Becca. And it's interesting you bring up that and the sort of putting yourself in that position, because I think, and the fact that you're doing vigil at the moment, because we're so used to seeing you in really powerful and as a controlling woman, you know, in Dr. Foster and Gentleman Jack. In this, it's quite interesting that you chose to be the younger sister, who actually, if I'm

honest, is the weaker one, isn't she? She's quite vulnerable and a bit of a mess, actually. Why did you choose to play her? I felt like, so she's, it's a commentary on the care system as well, or carers, because Becca has been a carer all of her life. She's cared for her mother. She's cared for her sister. She's been kind of victim to a life where perhaps other people have been more important. And so she's, and then she's had children, and she's cared for

children, then she's cared for her husband. And she's turned into like a micromanager, because she's valued herself on that. And so she's defined herself by her role. And then we get to roles that are given through the familial existence, you know, when you're in that early stage of your life. And Becca's role was probably Cara. And she's never kind of grown out of it. So I think there's something so uniquely interesting in looking at that. And Roz, of course, is the high flyer. And she's made a success of herself played by the brilliant Eve Best um so I just I just felt like I um wanted to tell that woman's story and not

someone that I'd played before and and I loved it I loved it it's very different but it works really well in fact we've got a clip now because um this is the moment that you share the news with your sister. You're on the phone to her. I don't understand. No, neither do I. She FaceTimed Lauren yesterday, said she was in Wales. What was she doing on the Isle of Man? I mean, it can't be her. If the police have sent you those photos,

well, it's... Well, it's definitely mum's stuff. What's dad said? I don't know. I couldn't get in touch with him. Neither could the police. That's why they called me. Do you mean he doesn't know yet? No, I just rang you. Well, he needs to tell him.

I know what he needs to tell him, Rosalind. Well, I'm 200 miles away, Becca. I can't do it over the phone. I know what you need to tell him, Rosalind. Well, I'm 200 miles away, Becca. I can't do it over the phone. I know. I'll go round. They want us to ID the body. There? Yes. Rosalind, there. Yeah.

I called her phone, but it just... It just rang out. It is quite an emotional clip, isn't it? Because you can... I think lots of people will relate to that, and finding out that someone you love so much has just gone is really difficult to deal with. But your drama is about that, but it's actually about finding out about that person

and about more of them. And there is quite a shocking scene when you, I don't want to spoil too much, but you walk into a house and your whole world is blown apart. I think Becca's modelled herself on her mother. You know, she's been told, and Mary, the mother in the piece, has labelled herself and she's given herself, you know,

what was expected of her generationally and within society that she was brought up in. And she's kind of boxed herself in and Becca has done the same. So when she finds out that her mother isn't her mother, in the sense of she has this other life, which is quite creative and beautiful and otherworldly she feels really empty because she doesn't she never knew the person she thought she knew and I think that was was the whole thing of them Becca has to question her own life of actually well what does she want and I and I think we get there in the end with her and her husband but um it just it speaks of not giving yourself enough um self-care really and finding out something like

that must absolutely rock your life so you can imagine how um especially about your parents because you think they are the one stable thing in your life I think um actually Rosalind says you know this can't be our mum because she's dull and boring. And to find out she has this other life, it's what lots of us think our parents are dull and boring, don't they? But that's security. But there's a really,

this is a lot about sisters and the relationship between sisters. And there's a really funny moment in the first episode when you both sort of let your guard down and literally climb the wall. You put your feet up the walls and you land on the floor in fits of giggles

and you get back to being youthful. But you're still middle-aged women because you snort when you laugh and one of you wets themselves. Yes, yeah, yeah. All the classics. Yeah, all the classics. Those women in their 40s,

was that a determined decision to make them that middle-aged genre that you don't often see on TV? Yeah, I think Happy Valley did a brilliant thing with the sisters and people loved it. And we noticed that people were really talking about it. So we were like, oh, this is good because ours is about sisters. And Anne-Marie, who's the writer, and myself are of their ages, of our sisters' ages in the piece. And yeah, we've got a lot to say. And then the mother, and obviously Stockard Channing, who's the mother's age, they're in their 70s.

We've lived a life and we've got a lot to say. And I think hopefully that is another kind of tick for the show that we're just showing another perspective. Well, it definitely resonated with me. Now, this is a female-led cast and production. Was that important to you? Yeah, Monumental is an amazing team, predominantly female-led, as you say. And then Anne-Marie, Sue Tully, who was our director, who blew me away every day.

I absolutely loved her strength and passion for the project. And yeah, it was really important because we wanted to delve into it in a safe way and also a robust way, as in I wanted to talk about these characters. I didn't just want to gloss over anything. So that was important. Women can talk more, you know, in a deep way and we needed that.

And I know this is, as you've said, it's the first production off the ground from your own production company you have with your husband. But why did you want to form that company in the first place? Because you seem to have been doing so much without it. Why was it important for you to have your own company making this? I think a seat at the table, a seat at my own table became very important. I've been producing for a long time. I've been exec producing. I've been working on scripts with see me as and then there are parts that I'm deeply interested in and we're making a documentary at the moment as well so it's just about kind of never settling and now I pull my own chair up at my own table and it feels really nice and we're starting small and we'll see where we go you know. It might be really surprising for people to hear that you didn't feel like you had a seat at your own table before that

because from the outside you seem like an actor who's very in control because you've had so many starring roles, you know, from Scott and Bailey and Gentleman Jack, and they are such strong roles. So is it true that you felt like, as an actor, your voice wasn't heard enough before this? I think it can be. So not for every project that I've done.

There's been a lot of amazing projects and amazing teams. But yeah, I think sometimes as an actor, we can be forgotten that, you know, we're just there to do the job, to say the lines and to move the production on quickly. And I don't want anyone that I work with to ever feel like that. I want to encourage and I get such pleasure out of growing other people's talents and watching other people do what they are meant to do. You know, I'm not a writer.

I'm a creative producer and I love watching Anne-Marie kind of grow this project. It was beautiful and, you know, in our design team and I love all of that so I think it's about just what I find um fulfills me and fulfills other people well to give you some more inspiration to squirrel away for maybe your next projects we have got lots of stories coming in so let me read some to you yes um this one says my dad only found out that the woman he'd called his mother all his life was not his mother but on the night before his own wedding age 25 he found out talk about timing we then found out that his mother my grandmother died a month after giving birth and none of us ever knew as my grandfather remarried and told no one about his first wife another one from alan when my mother died a few years after my father passed away, my sisters and I discovered that between the time my sister had been born and then, so a matter of eight years, she'd left my father and lived with another man and fallen pregnant.

Things hadn't worked out and mum wanted to return to dad who agreed on the proviso that she put my stepbrother up for adoption. So we've a stepbrother four years older than me and we know nothing of what happened to him wow that's the story there isn't it wow um and and it's very similar to to maryland actually um another one the secret my mum kept until years after my father died was that he was gay she only confirmed what i thought when i actually challenged her about their evident incompatibility it made so much her about their evident incompatibility. It made so much sense about their relationship and I feel very sad for them both, for my father's unlived life and my mother's disappointment.

I often wish they had felt able to separate and be happier with other partners that met their needs. My mum died several years ago and was never allowed further discussion about this. Honestly, there are so many more that I could carry on reading. and was never allowed further discussion about this. Oh, look. Honestly, there are so many more that I could carry on reading. I'll try reading them throughout the rest of the programme, so you must stay and listen. But, yeah, there's lots of inspiration for you there and obviously lots of things that will mean not only people resonate with Maryland,

but families go through that, don't they? And I think that's what Maryland shows so clearly is that there's lots going on in each other's lives and there's lots of secrets people tell there's layers of secrets even between the two sisters even between the dad there's lots of secrets in families yeah and what that's kind of saying to me as well it's the societal constraints of certain situations that make people tell you tell those lies and you know they don't feel like they can come out or change things because the effect will be so much bigger.

So I'm hopeful that, yeah, like you said, people will resonate. Even if it's not exactly the same, people will know the story. And do you see change? I mean, the fact that people are writing in about these secrets

says that people want to be open about it. Do you think we're getting more open nowadays and there should be less of those secrets within families what I love about the end of Maryland is that the the sisters do fall back in love with each other and um big spoiler um uh that you know I feel like by talking and by um being honest not all the characters appreciate that, which is real life. So, you know, we don't have a perfect tie up, but it gives them a start, the sisters. And I feel like we end Maryland

and we're going to see them off into the sunset where their story then begins as knowing each other. So, yeah, you know, therapy, talking about mental health, all of the things that I think that mean a lot to me as a mother, wife, actor that I've talked about a lot. Sharing what really, you know, your interior is, I think, terribly important. We can see that in the drama, definitely. Now, I understand you mentioned this before, but the second series of Vigil is in the offing but it's not set on a submarine this time can you tell us any more about it? Thank god Hayley. Get me above water please. Yeah so I am in

Scotland at the moment and then I go to Morocco to film so we are dual places Rose Leslie is back and Gary Lewis is back and then we've got a whole other brand new cast and we are looking towards the skies rather than the waters this time. Nice to know and Morocco, there couldn't be a much better place It's going to be hot!

Wonderful. Well Maryland airs on ITV1 at 9 o'clock from Monday the 22nd of May for three consecutive nights. You can also stream all episodes on ITVX from Monday. So thank you so much for joining us, Saran. It's been lovely to have you here and share your honesty. Thank you so much. Thank you. Now, a new law to be tabled in Parliament today would abolish no-fault evictions and make it illegal for landlords to refuse tenancies to those in receipt of benefits. It's part of a long-promised overhaul of the private rental sector in England. Now, housing campaigners

said the bill was a huge opportunity to improve the lives of the 11 million renters in England, but it still doesn't go far enough to help many renters, 40% of which are women. Now, the average rent outside of London now stands at £1,190 a month while tenants in the capital are paying more than £2,500 for the first time. These high prices have more of an impact on women because they spend 43 percent of their earnings on rent compared to men who only spend 28 percent. So what will the impact of these reforms be on women? Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by Melissa York, the Assistant Property Editor at The Times and The Sunday Times, and Polly Neate, Chief Executive of Shelter.

Melissa, I want to start with you first, because there's some vagues that are certain, there's some that are promises, some that are possibly going to be amendments. Can you talk us through these reforms and how you think they will serve women renters? Yeah, I mean, first of all, Section 21 being abolished, of course, will serve women renters, as it will all renters, because it will give them greater security in their homes. And obviously, that's massively important, particularly if you've got dependents just children that you may have had to uproot from a school or some of you know their local amenities and support services because your tenant has decided sorry your landlord has decided to evict you with two months notice um also it means that a lot of tenants that might be living in poor conditions with

say like mold for instance um or without hot water or proper heating um sometimes they're too scared to tell their landlord because they can be evicted so easily so hopefully this will give women and all renters uh greater security um in terms of as you rightly said you know women on average earn less than men um so what tends to happen is you tend to get more women i think it's i think the statistic is 36 percent more women in arrears than men um and it also means that in a very competitive market like we've got right now landlords can basically pick and choose who their tenants will be and unfortunately some landlords do see women and women with dependents as being less reliable in terms of paying the rent than men.

So in that case, we have spoken to a few women that have really found it difficult to rent when they've got children. And so what this bill promises to do is to not only ban landlords from discriminating against tenants on benefits, and of course, women are much more likely against tenants on benefits and of course women are much more likely to be on benefits they're also much more likely uh to feel the effect of welfare cuts as well um it will actually stop landlords from being able to discriminate on the basis of you having young children uh but at the moment it's uh been confirmed to me by the government uh this isn't in the bill as it will be today. It will be added as an amendment at the earliest opportunity.

But is that a definite it will be added as an amendment? Because if it's not in the bill, then is there any guarantee that it will be added? This is going to be extremely important to women who are renting here, lots of them who have children, lots of them have children on their own. And if they still can't come away from this guaranteed that they can't be evicted or can't be allowed to rent a property because they have children, they have nowhere else to go? Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's something that is hugely important to them. The government's told me they have absolutely every intention of doing it. But there are some kind of legal complications to go through. So basically, at the moment, in brief, there is a ban on letting agents marketing properties as no DSS, as it's kind of

known as, no welfare applicants should apply. And that's much easier to regulate with letting agents. When it comes to private landlords acting on their own behalf, I imagine it's just a bit more difficult to legislate for. So, yeah, there is every intention. But as I understand it, they're kind of working through it at the moment. Another issue that sprung out at me is the fact that they've said, yes, we're offering more security by banning no fault evictions. But we are allowing evictions if there's antisocial behaviour. Now, I just worry this is just terming it in another way. We know that we hear lots of stories on Woman's Hour about women who suffer domestic violence, which can be an antisocial behaviour and a reason used to evict the tenants.

So is saying evictions are still allowed because of antisocial behaviour still a way of evicting women? Sure. So what's interesting about this is that, of course, you can currently evict under Section 8 for antisocial behaviour. There are two grounds. There's a mandatory ground, which is used for really serious cases where you've committed a criminal offence, for example. There's a discretionary ground where it will go before a judge and basically a judge will decide whether it constitutes antisocial behaviour. And that definition will be expanded just to make it easier, basically,

for landlords to prove antisocial behaviour in courts. And the wording is any behaviour capable of causing nuisance or annoyance. So it doesn't have to be a nuisance, it can just be capable of a nuisance. What does that mean? Capable of a nuisance or annoyance. So this is it. So that's where it becomes much more difficult and woolly. And so you have lots of charities, particularly domestic violence charities, that say that, of course, you know, there tends to be a lot of noise and nuisance in homes with domestic violence. And perhaps if your neighbours complaining or complaining to the local council, that could be used against, you know, the victims of domestic violence to evict them. And already women make up, I think it's 60% of statutory homeless people, people in temporary accommodation.

And lots of those women are fleeing domestic violence. So, yeah, by making it easier, you're also sometimes making it easier to evict people who are in those circumstances. Yeah, I mean, we're all capable of causing a nuisance, aren't we? So that's a very broad bracket. But let me bring in Polly Neate now, Chief Executive of Shelter. Polly, what is your reaction to these proposals? How do you think women are going to be affected? Well, I mean, as Melissa said, I think the ending of Section 21 is really good news. We've been campaigning for this for years.

So, you know, we're very glad that the government have finally legislated after kind of quite a long time of promising they are going to do that and yes you know it will disproportionately benefit women women are more vulnerable to eviction but also they're more vulnerable to becoming homeless if they are evicted. So that's definitely a positive thing. We are worried about the antisocial behaviour provisions in the bill. There is a risk that these will mean that domestic abuse victims are more likely to become homeless. They're already very likely to become homeless. They're already very likely to become homeless.

So that is an extremely vulnerable group of vast majority women who could be disproportionately impacted. We are really worried about that. And we also really want to see some, you know, proper timings on when the government are going to make it illegal to evict people just because they have children or refuse to let to people just because they have children because again that's something that for women in particular is incredibly important. Yeah and as I said there is no promise or guarantee on that at the moment but what about now at the moment what

are the current challenges for women who rent at the moment? This is something you see day in, day out. What are the challenges they're facing? Well, one of the big issues around private renting at the moment is just the sheer unaffordability of it, which you mentioned in your intro. And women do earn less than men on average, as Melissa said said and so we are seeing a lot of women who simply cannot find an alternative home we know that a very high proportion over half of private renters have got absolutely no savings at all and so if they are evicted they're quite vulnerable to homelessness and again you, you know, what we're seeing is often women who, if they do get evicted, they find it incredibly difficult to find a new

home to rent. And that means that they are then more likely to end up homeless. And will this reform stop that? And of course, domestic abuse. Because will it go far enough? Because landlords can still put up their rental prices whenever they want which obviously forces mostly women out of the price bracket yeah so there's kind of two main categories of issues with private renting i guess and this bill is only about one of them so there's a big problem with instability insecurity the fact that people are too scared to complain about poor conditions in private renting because of no-fault evictions. That's like that kind of instability, insecurity, poor conditions. That's what this bill is going to address. There's a whole separate

issue around private renting, which, as I say, is about its sheer unaffordability. And, you know, that isn't really what this bill is about, to be honest. And I think what the government really needs to do about that is to invest in building homes that people on low incomes, many of whom are women, as we've said, building homes that they can actually afford to rent. And that means building social housing and you know we are still calling on the government to do that. Yeah the price hike is because there is not enough availability you're completely right Melissa is this bill going to change any of that? Unaffordability I mean probably not because it's a market supply problem as Polly rightly said.

You know, it's not going to introduce rent controls or anything like that. So it's, yeah, at the moment, that's got to be a bigger kind of strategic long-term commitment to building more social housing. But also just building all types of housing, because all housing is in a chain. It's connected, you know. So if you get more housing for first time buyers, for instance, that will take more people out of private renting and kind of lessen pressure on that part of private renting. But then equally, you know, there are a lot of people in private renting at the moment that can't afford to be there. And actually, they should probably be in social housing. again you know building more of that and then also incentivizing in different kind of ways landlords um to to invest in in private rentals as well you know um so it's it's basically we need loads more housing of all tenures and that will ultimately help everyone thank you thank you very much melissa york the assistant property editor of the times and polly Neate, chief executive of Shelter.

Now, earlier I asked you what your secrets are or what secrets you found out about your parents. And we've had so many stories come in. There is enough for 17 dramas here. This one says, after my mother died three years ago now, I came across a wad of love letters written to her about 75 years before. A story evolved of a war romance i also found a photo album knew nothing of this beforehand and have created an artist installation around this and i'm going to prague next month um to see places that they went together he was czech my mother was english that's from amano thank you so much another one here says um a few years after my elderly mother had died i was going through her papers and found that she had subtracted three years from her age and had done this for decades.

So when we celebrated her 80th birthday, she was actually 83. When I found this out, I was shocked, but then felt she had been given three extra years of life. And they're still coming in. Still bring these stories in, please. I think Saran Jones is still listening and writing them all down. So thank you very much for that. Now on to our next story. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has told Woman's Hour that it's troubling that some people with eating disorders are being offered palliative care, which is an end of life care. They're warning that eating disorders are not a terminal illness and shouldn't be treated as such.

In fact, most people can and do recover. Well, the RCP says there is not enough evidence to suggest it's becoming a trend, but it says it would be deeply concerned if this started to be considered clinical practice for anorexia. Dr Agnes Aiton is chair of the eating disorders faculty at the Royal College of Psychiatrists. The reason why we issued this statement because it has come to our attention both on social media and anecdotally that particularly younger adults with severe anorexia nervosa are offered or recommended to have palliative care and we are very keen to encourage the implementation of good practice guidelines. The NICE guidelines are very clear around the treatment, and the treatment needs to be available regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc. And in addition to

that, the Royal College of Psychiatrists produced the medical emergencies in eating disorder guidelines last year aimed at saving lives. What clinicians can do to help people get better. We don't have any evidence about the number of people who might be in this situation. But obviously, we would be deeply concerned if palliative care started to be considered as a clinical practice for conditions like anorexia nervosa. Eating disorders are not terminal illnesses. And while some patients are less responsive to treatment than others, that doesn't mean that they can't recover now or in the future. And maintaining that hope in treatment is really crucial to engage the patient. That was psychiatrist Dr Agnes Aiton from the RCP.

Now, our reporter Carolyn Atkinson has been investigating this, and she's here in the studio with me now. But in this item, we're going to be talking in some detail about the experiences of living with eating disorders, including anorexia. And if you feel you need support after hearing this programme, please go to our website because we've put details there of organisations which can help. But Carolyn, we heard there that the Royal College of Psychiatrists say they don't have the data yet, but they're obviously concerned. What have you found out? Yeah, well, we were seeing comments and messages on social media by women talking about their experiences of trying to get support for their eating disorders, including some who were talking about palliative pathways

being raised in discussions with their doctors. Now, it's a very, very complex, it's a very nuanced matter, just as eating disorders themselves are very complicated, and of course, different for everyone. And of course, the professionals involved in multidisciplinary inpatient and outpatient teams do want their patients to recover. But some patients feel that the services just aren't there for them, they're not getting the support they need to get better. And what numbers are we talking about? Can you just give us a sense of how many people are affected? Well, according to the charity BEAT, which is for people with eating disorders, at any one time in the UK, about one and a quarter million people have an eating disorder. Now,

three quarters of them are women, and many are in their teens and their really early 20s. And in fact, NHS figures show the most hospital admissions are actually among 15 to 19 year olds. Now since the pandemic there's also been a huge increase in demand for eating disorder services and according to a government minister who gave a written answer in the House of Commons, incredibly more than 10,000 children and young people started treatment for an eating disorder, she says, in just nine months of 2021. So that obviously puts massive pressures on the services. But everyone I've spoken to, including the health service ombudsman, experienced professionals like

dieticians, they're all at pains to point out that people must ask for help because eating disorders are treatable and people do fully recover. Now, BEAT, the eating disorder charity, told us it was extremely concerned to hear that palliative care has been considered for what it sees as a very treatable condition. But at the same time, it does take a lot of time. It's a slow process to recover and can be exhausting and traumatic for the individuals and their families at home, can't it? Absolutely. Now, I've been speaking to one woman, for example, in her 20s and speaking also to her father, who we are not identifying. Their experiences were raised on social media.

They both actively wanted to speak to Woman's Hour so that better support can be provided. And this shows just how upsetting it is and what day-to-day life can be like. I've had anorexia for eight years and I've had seven admissions to hospital. There's not been much that has actually helped me. I mean I've got to better places in units, I have got into better stages where I've been going out for lunches with family and friends or snacks out and stuff but I've never been fully like it was all revolved around calories it was all still revolved around what was in it if there was too much I was still really panicky I've never got to the point where I felt even a bit free and I mean at the start of all my admissions when I've been tube fed then I feel like I've been treated

really really badly through that you either go in and eat everything basically or they'll put a tube in your nose and feed you after each time you refuse I never agreed to it because I'm on a section. So I've been dragged from my room and held down by about six people just to get one feed. And this happens about four times a day. What happens is that there's inpatient treatment. They get to a certain point and they decide that she's been in too long. So they're going to discharge her. She comes home and the support's just not really very good, quite hands-off. It relies a lot on the parents to try and find a way and we've

struggled with the illness and then we're just going round in circles. She gets too ill, loses a lot of weight, stops eating and then she're just going around in circles she gets too ill loses a lot of weight stops eating and then she has to be admitted again I want to get better but I have lost all hope in getting better I'd say I don't feel like I can get better and I don't think I ever will get better because I've been through so many admissions and I have mentioned like well it's probably coming from more my eating disorder that I have mentioned moving to palliative care instead of going through inpatient treatment again and again and again and going through that trauma all over again of not being close to my family not being in a safe place know, I wrote down that I wanted palliative care,

but not because I wanted to die, just because I wanted this torture to stop. And I felt like dying was the easiest way. And you say you raised it, but your team have raised it as well, haven't they? I raised it first, but yeah, it's been brought up a few times now. And in the tweet you said you'd been given some forms what do they do i've been given uh an advanced statement to

fill out which is meant to be given to you when you have the capacity to say what you want if you end up back in hospital what you want you can write down your weight like what weight you feel comfortable at or you need this amount of care you need this treatment or this is how you want to be treated but it's been given to me in a position where I'm not like the friends that I've made in inpatient are quite shocked that I've been given these forms with where I'm at because I don't have the capacity to actually say yeah this is this is what I want when I go back into hospital because I have just written on them that I don't want any help I want I want to move to palliative care I want I want to stop

treatment because I can't do this anymore. Hearing this is obviously incredibly upsetting and people listening will be very, very moved by what they've just heard. When you realised that these papers had been given and that your daughter was mentioning palliative care, what were your thoughts? Well, yeah, when it was first mentioned, we were very shocked. But at the same time, I don't think she has the capacity to make a decision like that. And she's on a section.

So I don't think I'm too concerned at the moment. I guess the issue would raise its head if a doctor was prepared to sign those forms and agree to that, then we would certainly challenge that. I just think that there needs to be a lot more resources, especially for outpatient help. Inpatient units are traumatic places, there's no doubt about that. And I think the less time people are in there, the better. But I think there needs to be much more support at home to just discharge and hope for the best by our experience and and we're we're left to try and hold things together at home and then we go into the gradual decline and you know usually within six months she's too ill and has to be admitted again and then the cycle begins again. I don't want other people coming into the system to be treated the same

way that I have or go through what I have. I've always said once I recover I'm gonna I'm gonna go and help other people and raise awareness of this even how one person can be treated differently or if they're going through the same thing with revolving door that they're actually something needs to change now since i spoke with them both on monday afternoon the dad contacted me saying his daughter was admitted to a specialist eating disorder unit yesterday so he is extremely relieved she's now getting some life-saving treatment and she is not on a palliative pathway. So she did get a place in a specialist unit but many campaigners say that eating disorder services are very under-resourced

and that's the view of this woman who's in her 30s. She's had an eating disorder all her adult life and she wanted to share this recording that she made on her phone about a year ago in order to raise awareness and to get more funding for eating disorders. Now what you're about to hear is her reaction when her team said they couldn't offer her any more help at that time and that she was being referred back into the care of her GP but she could come back to them if things changed and you will hear that she is very distressed. How do you expect me to just double my calorie intake in a week on my own? I don't understand how you expect me to do that. If I could do that, don't you think I would?

Don't you think I'd love to be able to do that? I don't understand. How do you expect someone with an eating disorder, with a BMI of whatever mine is, to double her calorie intake in a week while she's at home? So what are my options then? Because I can't that i'm just gonna give up so you think so you're just gonna leave me to die that's what you're doing because i can't do that i'm telling i've i try to do things on my own things don't help so what now so i can't do that so what do i do now just die that's a very hard listen now she

told me that she is now much better than she was a year ago when that recording was made. She's making slow but good progress, still very unwell, not able to drive or go back to work. And she says she has improved because she's been able to use her savings to pay for weekly sessions with a private mental health nurse. And she says that has kept her alive. Thank you, Carolyn. Well, that was extremely difficult to hear. And as you heard, both these women's stories are very upsetting. But in the last clip, our interviewee asks, what can she do now?

Well, what can she do? Joining me on the line is Hope Virgo, author and multi-award winning mental health campaigner who has fully recovered from an eating disorder herself. On Friday, she's going to Downing Street to deliver an open letter and a petition to the Prime Minister and Health Secretary Stephen Barclay, warning that too many people are dying unnecessarily from eating disorders. And on Saturday, she's organising the UK's first National March and Rally to improve eating disorder services. Hope, thank you so much for coming on the programme. I know you were listening there and the young lady asks, what can she do? What can she do? If I'm honest, it's really, really harrowing and heartbreaking to hear more and more stories like this. In all honesty, at the moment, services are so overstretched and treatment is really, really limited

that it means that we're really really struggling when people are asking for that support and trying to get it my suggestion for anyone who is in that situation it is about going to their gp like trying to persist but what we know is that this isn't a unique experience that she's going through like i said it's something that is affecting many many people and i get messages on a day-to-day basis highlighting this and in fact one that I got really recently was a 28-year-old who shared that she was discharged just the other day

and has been put onto a palliative care pathway. And she admitted that she doesn't actually care anymore that she's been put onto that pathway because she's completely lost all hope of recovery. My goodness. And it is a difficult fight to take on yourself, isn't it? Especially when you're suffering like that. Now, you have 35,000 followers on social media and you speak to people on the ground every day, many of whom share their experiences with anorexia, including some of those who are worried about the palliative care pathways.

What are they telling you? What are you hearing every day? Yeah, mainly that people are now um kind of too sick to get treatment it's interesting a couple of years ago it was people were too well to get treatment so weren't thin enough whereas now we're hearing the other end so people are too sick enough that treatment's not working and in some situations if people aren't getting better or increasing their food intake or increasing their weight as planned by their clinicians, they will be discharged and left in the limbo. And in some situations, yes, put on palliative care pathways. In other situations, people are being left to function

at a high level with an eating disorder. And that is not the kind of life that someone deserves to live. It's not the kind of life that someone wants to live. And what we should be focusing on more is actually what is going wrong with treatment to stop that person making that recovery and what can we do to change that round. these people you're hearing from they they feel well they've been discharged they're either being put on palliative care or they're having to look after themselves at home what evidence is there for that that that this is something that's actually

happening so it's it's stories that i'm seeing on a day-to-day basis, stories from people who are contacting me about the service they're receiving. But also in some situations, people have got discharge letters. And we know that there are a lot of services at the moment who are discharging people with life-threateningly low BMIs. And whilst BMI, we've all probably got our own opinions on it, and it's not that accurate a measure, we know with things like anorexia that if they get discharged at a low BMI, they are going to fall into that pattern of relapsing quite quickly after they have been discharged and their brain won't have that time to recover. We need to, when we're looking at eating disorders, remember that there is a biological aspect to it and that people's brains need to be rewired and have that chance to recover. And because people are getting discharged

at a low weight, again, they're not getting the chance to do that. And then you look at individuals who maybe have eating disorders who are at a higher weight and they're not getting the support they need. They're being turned away from doctors on a day-to-day basis, being turned away from A&E.

In some situations, I've had people contact me who've turned up at A&E having perhaps collapsed because they haven't maybe fueled themselves for a couple of days or however long it might've been. They maybe get refed A&E having perhaps collapsed because they haven't maybe fuelled themselves for a couple of days or however long it might have been. They maybe get refed or have a tube put in for 24 hours to get them rehydrated. But then again, there's no follow on treatment that they then just get discharged back out. And then a couple of weeks later, they're probably going to be back in that

same situation. And it's definitely a systematic failure, isn't it? I mean, there's a current shortage of mental health nurses. In fact fact the papers today are reporting that mental health nurses account for nearly a third of all the nursing vacancies across England which obviously has a direct impact on the people who are suffering with eating disorders and needing their care so what can be done yeah there's no specialist treatment out there at the moment and I think particularly with mental health nurses again we know that there's a lack of training specifically for eating disorders so people have no idea or no real understanding of how to treat them and like you said it's it's a it's decades of underfunding it's decades of stigma and it's just fueling this crisis around eating disorders i think for me what needs to be done is we need to have a proper

kind of strategy of implementation to make sure that people are getting the support they need we need proper adequate funding to meet the demand and so that we can then start enforcing the guidance that is already in place. Okay and you've started this petition to ask for that in fact you're organising the first National Eating Disorder March and rally on Saturday and you're delivering this open letter to the PM and the Health Secretary on Friday. What does that say? What are you calling for? So we're specifically asking for a meeting to talk about it further. But within that, we'll be looking at issues around funding. So we're asking for around £340 million to be put into adult eating disorder services,

which may sound like a lot to some people, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what we're currently spending budget on at the moment. We're also asking for them to look at what treatment out there is working. We know that in some parts of the country, such as Oxford, there is some fantastic treatment being rolled out that has huge success rates around recovery. So why aren't we having that rolled out elsewhere? And then also getting them to revisit some of the campaigning they've done over the last couple of years, particularly around calories on menus, which I know you've covered before, but actually looking at actually how a lot of this messaging can be really detrimental for people who are vulnerable, people with eating disorders. How can we prevent this crisis escalating into something much, much further?

Because the reality is no one should be dying of an eating disorder right now. Well, we contacted the Department of Health and Social Care and they told us people with eating disorders should not be routinely placed on palliative care pathways. They said, we're improving eating disorder and mental health services. We're investing almost £1 million in community mental health care for adults with severe mental illnesses, including eating disorders.

And we plan to do that by 2024. Capacity at children and young people's community eating disorder services is also being increased across the country thanks to an additional £ million pounds of government investment. Thank you so much Hope for coming on the programme. You've got a busy week ahead of you, ahead of your march on Saturday but thank you so much for coming and explaining to us all. Good luck with this. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now moving on my next guest is the distinguished scientist, Professor Dame Athene Donald.

Athene has had a glittering scientific career and in 1998 she became the first female professor of physics at the Cavendish Laboratory. The following year she was made a Fellow of the Royal Society and in 2009 she won a L'Oreal UNESCO Award for Women in Science. Master of Churchill College, Cambridge. She was the first woman to hold that role since the college was founded in 1959. And earlier this month, she published a rallying cry of a book called Not Just for Boys, We Need More Women in Science, which examines the historic social exclusion of women from science and the systematic disadvantages women in science operate under. Well, it also looks at the common myths that science isn't creative and that it's carried out by a lone genius in an ivory tower.

And she most importantly has got some ideas about what needs to change. So welcome, Athene. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Hello. The first thing I noticed when reading your book is that it's dedicated to your granddaughters. Is that why you wanted to write this book? In part, I mean, there has been so much said about women in science and very little change. And my granddaughters now are three and six. And I have to hope that by the time they are, say, 20, the world has moved on because people talk about the problems, but they don't really tackle the issues that young girls and women face. And we need to do a better job. And

that means everyone has a part to play, be it parents, teachers, policymakers, they all have a part to play. And I really hope they'll read the book and sort of absorb some lessons from it. And how much of a shortfall is there at the moment? Because this is something we talk a lot about on Woman's Hour, the need for more women to work in STEM, that's science, technology, engineering and maths. So how serious is the shortfall in women going into these areas? It varies between the subjects. A fair number of women, I mean, there's a majority of women start a biology degree, for instance. But in physics and in engineering, if we look at English A-levels, it's only about 20 to 25 percent do physics A-level. And therefore they can't go on and do degrees in these subjects. And it's not just the case of sheer numbers, if you like, but the perspectives that different kinds of people bring from whatever

different kind of background, be it by gender or by ethnic background or socioeconomic or whatever, they bring, you know, you mentioned creativity, they will bring different aspects of that to solve problems. And we absolutely need those divergent voices. Well, the government says it's keen to address this and it's going to put money into various projects to try and steer women into these areas. Things like coding courses, it's already spreading out. But I just want to give the listeners some numbers here because between 2009 and 2020,

there was almost 30% increase in girls starting STEM A-levels in England. And between 2011 and 2020, the number of women accepted to full-time STEM undergraduate courses increased by 50% in the UK. But when it comes to actually working in science in 2020, women only made up 29% of the workforce in the UK. So they're obviously getting the degrees and the education, but not entering the workforce. Can you think why? I think there are many reasons and one should recognise that, as I say, biology has large numbers of women, physics and engineering do not. But I think if you are already in a minority and people around you sort of point fingers at you

and say, you know, what's a girl doing in a subject like this? Why does a young woman want to become an engineer? It's incredibly discouraging. And in all the subjects, including biology, as you go up the ladder, women drop out at faster rates. And it's very easy to say, oh, that's because they want a family. But it's really, that's a very facile kind of answer to the question, women ought to be able to have families and stay in these subjects and not feel it's such an unpleasant environment to work in I might as well drop out.

Yeah on that point in your book you do say that there is still some discrimination there I mean you've been ignored and overlooked in your time you've even talked about how there is harassment in the workplace in fact you were put against a wall and offensive remarks were made to you while no one around you did anything to interfere. Firstly, that must have been difficult for you, but is that culture still there, do you think, for others? I think it's getting better. And of course, I'm of an age now where I see less of it. But I think there's still an assumption that getting drunk in a conference bar is okay if you then sort of harass women. I worry more about it during the day in the workplace. That still happens too,

as it does in just about every sector. I'm sure journalism is the same, unfortunately. But do you think it can change or it is changing? What do you think the answer is? I think the answer is for more people to step up when they see bad behaviour. I'm a great believer in bystanders and having men as allies. It isn't a question that women on their own can solve. It needs everyone to play their part and not let bad behaviour be tolerated. Thank you. Thanks for joining me today, Professor Dame Athene Donaldson. And her book, which we've been talking about,

is not only for the boys. A wonderful discussions we've had today. I still want to read out some of your amazing stories you've sent in about secrets you found out, but I'm totally running out of time.

The stories here about someone who found out their mother was a spy and another one that they'd had a whole other life separate from their family. Another one here says, the truth is I am the secret and it's not a nice place to be well thank you so much for joining me today but we're back tomorrow morning at 10 well thanks for listening there's plenty more from Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds

Hello I'm John York and I want to tell you about Opening Lines a series from BBC Radio 4 in which I'll be looking at books, plays, poems and stories of all kinds that have made a mark and asking what makes them work. I mean this stuff is jaw-droppingly shocking. I'll be asking lots of questions. What's at the heart of the story? How does it achieve its effect? What makes it special? History is usually written by winners but he wants to give a voice to people who are not usually heard. I'll be hearing from people who know and love these works. Writers. We do have an orgasm evoked on the page. Dramatists. Biographers. It's worn better as a book

about England than it has as a book about sex, I think. And directors too. In the end, I'll be asking, what makes this work worth reading now? Join me to find out in opening lines from BBC Radio 4 and available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.