Woman's Hour - Suranne Jones, Karen Millen, Eating disorders, Men and contraception, Kissing

Episode Date: May 20, 2023

Psychiatrists say they’re worried that some people with eating disorders are being offered palliative care. They say an eating disorder is not a terminal illness and most people can recover. Our reporter Carolyn Atkinson speaks to two women who currently have an eating disorder, and reports on what charities and professionals are saying about recover, and Hayley talks to mental health campaigner Hope Virgo about her experience.Karen Millen started setting up her fashion brand just after she left college. She later sold the business, and made millions. Now, 20 years later, she’s back working for the company, creating a new collection. Anita speaks to her about what happened in between, and how it feels to be back. Bafta-winning actor Suranne Jones is back on our screens with Maryland, a three-part drama about two sisters discovering that their mother was leading a secret life. Suranne plays the younger sister Becca. She joins Hayley to explain how the idea, which came to her in a dream, made it onto the small screen.A new study suggests that humans kissing may have started more than a thousand years earlier than was previously thought. Dr Sophie Lund Rasmussen from the University of Oxford joins Anita to talk through what it means, and how the investigation came about because of a conversation at the dinner table.Are men responsible for unwanted pregnancies? 'Ejaculate Responsibly: The conversation We Need to Have about Men and Contraception' is a stirring manifesto by American writer and award-winning blogger Gabrielle Blair, who thinks they are. According to Gabrielle, if you boil it right down all unwanted pregnancies are caused by irresponsible ejaculations. She joins Hayley to discuss her argument.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to all of you. This is Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. This is the episode of the programme each week where we gather together the best bits from the last five days and put them all into one handy place just for you. Coming up this afternoon. I want to get better, but I have lost all hope in getting better, I'd say. I don't feel like I can get better and I don't think I ever will get better.

I wrote down that I wanted palliative care, but not because I wanted to die, just because I wanted this torture to stop. We've been taking a look into eating disorders and the options for recovery. but not because I wanted to die, just because I wanted this torture to stop. We've been taking a look into eating disorders and the options for recovery. It's a tough listen, but we want to emphasise that there is hope. Plus, Karen Millen, the woman behind the fashion brand with the same name. She's going back to her company 20 years after selling it. We'll hear what that journey's been like.

And Saran Jones, star of Vigil and Dr Foster, tells us about her brand new project, Maryland. Anne-Marie, who's the writer, and myself are of our sister's ages in the piece. And yeah, we've got a lot to say. And then the mother, and obviously Stockard Channing, who's the mother's age, they're in their 70s. We've lived a life and we've got a lot to say. And I think hopefully that is another

kind of tick for the show that we're just showing another perspective. So are you sitting comfortably? Got yourself a drink? Then let's begin. This morning, the UK's first ever march took place for those affected by eating disorders. It was held in Trafalgar Square in London, and there was also a rally calling for improvement in eating disorder services. While the Royal College of Psychiatrists has told Woman's Hour it's troubling that some people with eating disorders are being offered palliative care, which is end-of-life care. They're warning that eating disorders are not a terminal illness and shouldn't be treated as such. In fact, most people can and do recover. Now, in this item, we're going to be talking in some detail about the experience of living with eating disorders, including anorexia.

If you feel you need support after hearing this programme, please go to our website where there are details of organisations which can help. Our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, has been investigating the complex world of eating disorders. She joined Hayley Hassel and started by explaining what's going on here. We were seeing comments and messages on social media by women talking about their experiences of trying to get support for their eating disorders, including some who were talking about palliative pathways being raised in discussions with their doctors. Now, it's a very, very complex,

it's a very nuanced matter, just as eating disorders themselves are very complicated, and of course, different for everyone. And of course, the professionals involved in multidisciplinary inpatient and outpatient teams do want their patients to recover. But some patients feel that the services just aren't there for them. They're not getting the support they need to get better. And what numbers are we talking about? Can you just give us a sense of how many people are affected? Well, according to the charity BEAT, which is for people with eating disorders, at any one time in the UK, about one and a quarter million people have an eating disorder. Now, three quarters of them are women, and many are in their teens and their really early 20s. And in fact, NHS figures show the

most hospital admissions are actually among 15 to 19 year olds. Now since the pandemic there's also been a huge increase in demand for eating disorder services and according to a government minister who gave a written answer in the House of Commons, incredibly more than 10,000 children and young people started treatment for an eating disorder she says says, in just nine months of 2021. So that obviously puts massive pressures on the services. But everyone I've spoken to, including the health service ombudsman, experienced professionals like dieticians, they're all at pains to point out that people must ask for help because eating disorders are treatable and people do fully recover. Now, BEAT, the eating disorder charity, told us it was extremely concerned to hear that palliative care has been considered for what it sees as a very treatable condition.

But at the same time, it does take a lot of time. It's a slow process to recover and can be exhausting and traumatic for the individuals and their families at home can't it? Absolutely now I've been speaking to one woman for example in her 20s and speaking also to her father who we are not identifying their experiences were raised on social media they both actively wanted to speak to Woman's Hour so that better support can be provided and this shows just how upsetting it is and what day-to-day life can be like. I've had anorexia for eight years and I've had seven admissions to hospital. There's not been

much that has actually helped me. I mean I've got to better places in units, I have got into better stages where I've been going out for lunches with family and friends or snacks out and stuff but I've never been fully like it was all revolved around calories it was all still revolved around what was in it if there was too much I was still really panicky I've never got to the point where I felt even a bit free and I mean at the start of all my admissions when I've been tube, then I feel like I've been treated really, really badly through that. You either go in and eat everything, basically, or they'll put a tube in your nose and feed you after each time you refuse. I never agreed to it because I'm on a section so I've been dragged from my room and held down by about six people just to get one feed and this happens about four times a day.

What happens is that there's inpatient treatment they get to a certain point and they decide that she's been in too long so they're going to discharge her. She comes home and the support's just not really very good, quite hands-off. It relies a lot on the parents to try and find a way and we've struggled with the illness and then we're just going round in circles. She gets too ill, loses a lot of weight, stops eating, and then she has to be admitted again. I want to get better, but I have lost all hope in getting better, I'd say.

I don't feel like I can get better, and I don't think I ever will get better, because I've been through so many admissions. And I have mentioned, like, well well it's probably coming from more my eating disorder that I have mentioned moving to palliative care instead of going through inpatient treatment again and again and again and going through that trauma all over again of not being close to my family not being in a safe place you know I wrote down that I wanted palliative care, but not because I wanted to die, just because I wanted this torture to stop.

And I felt like dying was the easiest way. And you say you raised it, but your team have raised it as well, haven't they? I raised it first, but yeah, it's been brought up a few times now. And in the tweet, you said you'd been given some forms. What do they do? I've been given an advanced statement to fill out, which is meant to be given to you when you have the capacity to say what you want. If you end up back in hospital, what you want, you can write down your weight, like what weight you feel comfortable at or you need this amount of care, you need this treatment or this is how you want to be treated. But it's been given to me in a position where I'm not like the friends that I've made in inpatient are quite shocked that I've been given these forms with where I'm at because I don't have the capacity to actually say yeah this

is this is what I want when I go back into hospital because I have just written on them I don't want any help I want I want to move to palliative care I want I want to stop treatment because I can't do this anymore you hearing this is obviously incredibly upsetting and people listening will be very very moved by what they've just heard um when you realized that these papers had been given and that your daughter was mentioning palliative care what were your thoughts well yeah we were when it was first mentioned we were we're we're very shocked but at the same time i don't think she has the capacity to make a decision like that and she's on a section so i don't think i'm i'm too concerned at the moment the the i guess the the issue would would raise its head if a doctor was prepared to sign those forms and agree to that, then we would certainly challenge that.

I just think that there needs to be a lot more resources, especially for outpatient help. Inpatient units are traumatic places, there's no doubt about that. And I think the less time people are in there, the better. But I think there needs to people are in there the better but I think there needs to be much more support at home they just discharge and hope for the best by our experience and and we're we're left to try and hold things together at home and then we go into the gradual decline and you know usually within six, she's too ill and has to be admitted again. And then the cycle begins again.

I don't want other people coming into the system to be treated the same way that I have or go through what I have. I've always said once I recover, I'm going to go and help other people and raise awareness of this, even how one person can be treated differently or if they're going through the same thing with revolving door that there actually is something that needs to change. Now, since I spoke with them both on Monday afternoon, the dad contacted me saying his daughter was admitted to a specialist eating disorder unit yesterday. So he is extremely relieved she's now getting some life-saving

treatment and she is not on a palliative pathway. So she did get a place in a specialist unit but many campaigners say that eating disorder services are very under-resourced and that's the view of this woman who's in her 30s. She's had an eating disorder all her adult life and she wanted to share this recording that she made on her phone about a year ago in order to raise awareness and to get more funding for eating disorders. Now, what you're about to hear is her reaction when her team said they couldn't offer her any more help at that time and that she was being referred back into the care of her GP. But she could come back to them if things changed and you will hear that she is very distressed. How do you expect me to just double my calorie intake in a week on my own? I don't understand how you expect me to do that. If I could do that, don't you think I would? Don't you think I'd love to be able to do that?

I don't understand. How do you expect someone with an eating disorder, with a BMI of whatever mine is, to double her calorie intake in a week while she's at home? So what are my options then because i can't do that i'm just gonna give up so you think so you're just gonna leave me to die that's what you're doing because i can't do that i'm telling i've i try to do things on my own things don't help so what now so i can't do that so what do i do now just die that's a very hard listen now she

told me that she is now much better than she was a year ago when that recording was made she's making slow but good progress, still very unwell, not able to drive or go back to work. And she says she has improved because she's been able to use her savings to pay for weekly sessions with a private mental health nurse. And she says that has kept her alive. Carolyn Atkinson there speaking to Hayley. And you heard there are two stories from young women that are extremely upsetting.

And in the last clip, the young woman asks, what can she do? Well, what can she do? Hope Virgo is an author and multi-award winning mental health campaigner who's fully recovered from an eating disorder herself. Yesterday, she delivered an open letter to Downing Street and a petition to the Prime Minister and Health Secretary Stephen Barclay warning that too many people are dying unnecessarily from eating disorders. She has around 35,000 followers on social media

and speaks to people on the ground, many of whom share their experiences including some of these worries about palliative care pathways. Hope told Hayley what she's been hearing. Something that I got really recently was a 28-year-old who shared that she was discharged just the other day and has been put onto a palliative care pathway. And she admitted that she doesn't actually care anymore that she's been put onto that pathway

because she's completely lost all hope of recovery. It's interesting, a couple of years ago, people were too well to get treatment, so weren't thin enough. Whereas now we're hearing the other end, so people are too sick enough that treatment's not working. And in some situations, if people aren't getting better or increasing their food intake or increasing their weight, as planned by their clinicians, they will be discharged and left in the limbo. And in some situations, yes, put on palliative care pathways. In other situations, people are being left to function

at a high level with an eating disorder. And that is not the kind of life that someone deserves to live. It's not the kind of life that someone wants to live. And what we should be focusing on more is actually what is going wrong with treatment to stop that person making that recovery. And what can we do to change that round? So these people you're hearing from, they feel, well, they've been discharged. They're either being put on palliative care or they're having to look after themselves at home. What evidence is there for that, that this is something that's actually happening? So it's stories that I'm seeing on a day-to-day basis,

stories from people who are contacting me about the service they're receiving, but also in some situations people have got discharge letters, and we know that there are a lot of services at the moment who are discharging people with life-threateningly low BMIs. And whilst BMI, we've all probably got our own opinions on it, and it's not that accurate a measure, we know with things like anorexia that if they get discharged at a low BMI, they are going to fall into that pattern of relapsing quite quickly after they have been discharged. And their brain won't have that time to recover. We need to, when we're looking at eating disorders, remember that there is a biological aspect to it,

and that people's brains need to be rewired and have that chance to recover. And because people are getting discharged at a low weight, again, they're not getting the chance to do that. And then you look at individuals who maybe have eating disorders who are at a higher weight, and they're not getting the support they need. They're being turned away from doctors on a day-to-day basis, being turned away A&E in some situations I've had people contact me who've turned up at A&E having perhaps collapsed because they haven't maybe fueled themselves for a couple of days or however long it might have been they maybe get refed or have a tube put in for 24 hours to get them rehydrated but then again there's no follow-on treatment that they

then just get discharged back out and then a couple of weeks later they're probably going to be back in that same situation. And it's definitely a systematic failure isn't it I mean there's a current shortage of mental health nurses which obviously has a direct impact on the people who are suffering with eating disorders and needing their care so what can be done? Yeah there's no specialist treatment out there at the moment and I think particularly with mental health nurses again we know that there's a lack of training specifically for eating disorders so people have no idea or no real understanding of how to treat them and like you said it's decades of underfunding, it's decades of stigma and it's just fueling this crisis around eating disorders. You're organising the first National Eating Disorder March and

you're delivering this open letter to the PM and the Health Secretary. What does that say? What are you calling for? So we're specifically asking for a meeting to talk about it further. But within that, we'll be looking at issues around funding. So we're asking for around £340 million to be put into adult eating disorder services, which may sound like a lot to some people, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what we're currently spending budget on at the moment. We're also asking for them to look at what treatment out there is working. We know that in some parts of the country, such as Oxford, there is some fantastic treatment being rolled out that has huge success rates around recovery.

So why aren't we having that rolled out elsewhere? And then also getting them to revisit some of the campaigning they've done over the last couple of years, particularly around calories on menus, but actually looking at how a lot of this messaging can be really detrimental for people who are vulnerable, people with eating disorders. How can we prevent this crisis escalating into something much, much further? Because the reality is no one should be dying of an eating disorder right now. Hope Virgo there. And as I said at the beginning, if you'd like some support, please go to our website. There's information about organisations who can offer further help.

Now, have you got a Karen Millen dress? Who's got one in their wardrobe or who remembers wearing one perhaps to a wedding or just walking past the famous high street shop and admiring the clothes in the window? Well, earlier this week, I spoke to the woman behind the brand, Karen Millen herself. Since setting up her first shop back in 1981, a lot has happened. The highest of highs and the lowest of lows are now an element of starting again. Karen began by telling me how she first set up the company. Basically, sort of like at the end of my school time, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I was kind of interested in doing interior design or really being a painter and decorator nothing that glamorous and my teachers sort of said look you know you should be doing something something else maybe fashion because I always used to go to school sort of dressed differently hair was always different and obviously sort of very

creative person young person and so they they took me along to a local college, Medway College of Design in Rochester. And it was their end of year shows. And I watched that and they looked at me and said, well, what about this? And I was like, what do you think I can do that? Yeah. And they're like, why not?

You know, let's put a portfolio together and apply to the college. So that's what we did. Sort of fast forward a bit and three years of college, came out of college and didn't really know what I was going to do. I kind of wanted to work for myself,

but really didn't have that much direction and quite shy as well. So I wasn't really going to put myself out there. And then I went on a holiday and met my to-be partner, Kevin, and told him what I was doing. He was like, oh, yeah, that sounds really great. Pursue that. So I started making shirts for some friends.

The iconic white shirt. No, it's not actually. The first part was I bought a load of shirting fabric, which is mainly stripes and was making some friends shirts for friends originally. And that progressed to buying the hundred metres of white cotton, which I started doing small collections and selling them through party plan idea, which is something my know, suggested I do. So she got the girls from the office, you know, at home and we created a party plan sort of scheme. So we went from one party to another party and built that over the year and did some markets, anything really to start sort of, you know, generating some income. Yeah, so I was literally making, cutting and making things on my parents' floor or the kitchen table. So I think for about a year we continued with clothes parties. And then we managed to get a small loan to buy some equipment, cutting equipment. And that gave us the sort of ability to sort of make more.

And then we were using outworkers to produce some of the clothes at the time. It was a slow growth. In the first 10 years, we managed to open four stores. That's pretty good. Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess so. It didn't feel like that at the time. It felt a real battle because we were learning from our own mistakes, really. We hadn't come from the industry. We were young, naive, but probably that's a good thing to have been so naive because I think if you know some of the things that you had to face along the way, you probably wouldn't have done them.

But yeah, we kind of like used the first year like an apprenticeship, really. So we opened the first door in Maidstone, my hometown, then went on to open a second one in Tunbridge Wells, then Guildford and Brighton. And during that period, you know, we were very hungry and wanted to grow but never really envisaged it being quite as big as it become that was never really how do you go from four stores to them well the same way that you go from 10 to 20 really it was like you get to that point and all of a sudden you find yourself well let's just do another one or let's just do another another two or you know and it it just grew organically almost.

You'll have to explain it because most of us don't grow businesses like you have, Karen. You'll have to explain how you go from... Well, I think I have to sort of credit my partner, Kevin, in terms of the growth side of the business because he worked on the business side and I was more on the creative side. But I guess he had more of a vision than I did in the sense of the growth. And, you know, I think once you've conquered one sort of idea,

another one comes. And if you've done one, you know, you may as well do. You're on a roll. It's more economical to do, get to a point where, you know, you're running, you know, more rather than less. Yeah. But it was all about confidence for us as well and building an infrastructure,

putting into place all those things that you need to be able to manufacture and deliver. And we were running an operation that's called like a vertical operation where you're doing everything from the start to the finish, which is quite, you know, quite rare. And certainly in those days was rare. And I think that was our point of difference

to a certain degree. And then to cut a long story short, achieved huge success you basically did what a lot of small businesses dream of doing which is growing and then selling and you eventually sold the business in 2004 for 95 million pounds and you made 35 million pounds what does that feel like? What does it feel like? I mean, it was amazing. Yeah. I mean, it was such an achievement. And I think we were pretty lucky because in those days, times, I think it's all about hitting the market at the right time. And we just happened to be there at the right time, ready to sell. And I think our personal circumstances made it easier to go through that process in the sense of, you know, we had split 20 years after building the company

and we're going our separate ways. And it just felt the right time to actually, you know, say goodbye to it and move on. Did you completely walk away from the business at that point? I did. And it felt really weird because it felt like we were giving away our children our babies because you know we'd given birth to it and watched it grow and and put everything you know all our energy and love and passion into that and then to to let it go and the next day after signing those papers walk away thinking you know what's my purpose in life now so what was it well I had three children young children at the time so I kind of focused on that um because I

found the whole journey quite exhausting you know after 20 years I think not only that because of the emotional side of my split um I think I think I was just exhausted. And I think the industry changed within that 20 years too, in the sense of, you know, when we started, the High Street was new, really. I mean, what was happening was really exciting. And I think I always remember next opening and being so excited by the concept that they had. It was so refreshing for the High Street

to actually deliver collections of clothes and coordinate them in the way they did and package them the way they did so it was quite groundbreaking and I say you made all the money but then you know like I said at the beginning when I introduced you you've had the highest of the highs and the lowest of the lows because you were declared bankrupt yes I was years ago and and what impacted that, haven't you? How did that make you feel? And what happened? Overall, I guess I was badly advised on certain situations.

My money was invested in things that they shouldn't have been. And what does that do to your mental health? Well, fortunately, I'm quite a strong person and I managed to cope with it quite well. Obviously, I have my moments, but I pick myself up and I move on. You know, I come from a very humble background, working class background. So everything that I had, I'd worked hard for. But I was used to not having much initially. And I think all of those things helped me cope with having nothing again. Although sometimes I think it is harder once you've had

something to have it taken away from you. And yeah, of course, it's difficult. And it was really difficult for my children to accept that, you know, they were living in a beautiful home, grew up there, private education, you know, and it was it was a great, great life for them. And suddenly it was all taken away. And so how do you come back from that? Well, I, you know, my family and my friends have always been very supportive. And, you know, for me, that's key. And they believe in me and give me the support I need. And, you know, I just thought, well, you know, I'm still young. I was only 40 when we sold the company. So I retired early, really. And I kept thinking, you know, this is

ridiculous. There's still much more in me. You know, I should be doing something. But there was lots of things and reasons and legal things that were keeping me busy and, you know, wasted a lot of time, to be honest. And so maybe you were just enjoying your time. Well, I was enjoying it. I hope you enjoyed your time. I did enjoy part of it. I mean, initially, as I said, I was trying to come to terms with who am I now? You know, I kind of lost my identity almost. And so it took me a few years probably

to get my confidence back and find a purpose. And now you are back. And now I am back. Back at Karen Millen. I am back at Karen. Well, I'm not back and find a purpose. And now you are back. And now I am back. Back at Karen Millen. I am back at, well, I'm not, I'm not back at Karen Millen. I've been invited back to do a collection. And so they contracted me for a year to do a 30 piece collection, which was, you know, the brief was very open. So I basically did 30 pieces over two colourways. Well, it works out like 15 pieces really over two colourways. And it launched about two weeks ago online.

And what's the vibe of the collection? Because the 80s and 90s are so back now. I know. And you've got young people wearing 90s fashion. I know. All my friends' daughters are out raiding their wardrobes now for old Caramellon. It's great. It is great.

No, I think it's good. I mean, and the timing's perfect, I guess, in that sense. There is a revival towards the 80s and 90s. Why is it having a moment? Well, I think, you know, things are cyclical, aren't they? Particularly in fashion. And there's always lots of references towards, you know, the past when it comes to fashion.

And I think because of that, the generation now coming through, the 80s and 90s are all quite relevant to them. It's new to them and they're finding a lot of fun with it. Yeah, and there's a lot of good fashion from back then. You've had so many big things happen to you. What's it like now being back? Well, it's really energised me again. It's been great because I have obviously gone through some moments

where I've been low um so the opportunity to go back and do a small collection was was great I you know I I thought about it a lot and at first I thought no it's not something I want to go back to why did you think that well I just thought you know don't don't go back, go forward. And, you know, it's a company that's not, you know, hardly recognisable now to me or was. You know, they'd taken all the stores away from the high street. So it was an online business, which is something I'm not really familiar with. When we sold it, we, you know, it wasn't an online business. And so, you know, lots of changes.

And obviously, you know, I was wary of how people would receive me, you know there are lots of changes and obviously you know I was wary of how people would receive me you know and lots of high expectations of people and could I deliver so you know it was with trepidation that I said yes But you've done it And I've done it and I'm really pleased I've done it it's been fantastic and I've had great response from it and it's really lifted me

Karen Millen talking to me there Still to come on the programme Are men responsible for unwanted pregnancies? I've had great response from it and it's really lifted me. Karen Millen talking to me there. Still to come on the programme, are men responsible for unwanted pregnancies? We'll be hearing from one author's point of view that they very much are. Plus the history of kissing which just got a lot longer than originally thought and some of your brilliant stories of your first kisses. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just head to BBC Sounds, search for Woman's Hour, and to top it all off, it's free. Now BAFTA winning actor Saran Jones is back on our screens next week with Maryland. Yes! A three-part drama all about two sisters who discover that their mother was leading a secret life only after her

mysterious death on the Isle of Man. Saran, who plays younger sister Becca, is also the executive producer on the series. She joined Hayley in the Woman's Hour studio and started by telling her that the idea for Maryland came from a dream. I've been developing with my company for a while now and so Maryland is the first project that we've got off the ground okay so I'll write things down or I'll hear someone talking and take people's stories you know and then kind of squirrel them away but this was a dream and all it was was I remembered two sisters going into a house hearing people talk about their mum and them not recognising that person. So I wrote down double life, sisters, house, and then it percolated. And I kept thinking about the logistics of a double life.

And we usually see that on screen through the lens of the male gaze. OK. So I thought, what if it was a woman? How would a woman do that and hide such a big secret? And then, of course, being greedy about women's stories, if we put two sisters, then we get to tell three female-focused stories. So it was that, really. It was just a small thought that grew and grew. And then we brought the writer, Marie O'Connor, on and we went from there. But it's really, really noticeable the way that women's lives are central to this and the normality of women's lives, actually, because as soon as it starts, you're hit by the normality, everything.

I think, Becca, your character is trying to sort out the kids and breakfast and she's on the phone and her husband's asking where the plasters are. And then she gets this devastating news. You kind of get the idea of a modern woman trying to juggle everything and it's quite stark in its relationship to that, isn't it? Do you know what? I think it's like very old-fashioned TV in the nicest possible way. And Anne-Marie wrote it like a film

because it's three parts. And we just, you know, a lot of the stuff I do, like I'm filming Vigil 2 at the moment, it's thrills and spills. And I just had a yearning to make something that I used to watch when I was younger, you know, like real kind of kitchen sink family drama. And so the normality, I love that you've picked that up.

I think that was really important to us that we put normal people into this extraordinary circumstance and see what it does to someone who isn't extraordinary themselves and hasn't actually give themselves a chance to learn who they are and that's Becca. And it's interesting you bring up that um the sort of putting yourself in that position because I think and the fact that you're doing vigil at the moment because we're so used to seeing you in really powerful and as a controlling woman you know in Dr Foster and Gentleman Jack. In this, it's quite interesting that you chose to be the younger sister who actually, if I'm honest, is the weaker one, isn't she?

She's quite vulnerable and a bit of a mess, actually. Why did you choose to play her? I felt like, so she's, it's a commentary on the care system as well or carers because Becca has been a carer all of her life. She's cared for her mother. She's cared for her mother, she's cared for her sister, she's been kind of victim to a life where perhaps other people have been more important and so she's and then she's had children and she's cared for children then she's cared for her husband and she's turned into like a micromanager because she's valued herself on that.

And so she's defined herself by her role. And Ros, of course, is the high flyer. And she's made a success of herself, played by the brilliant Eve Best. So I just felt like I wanted to tell that woman's story and not someone that I'd played before. And I loved it. I loved it. And finding out that someone you love so much has just gone is really difficult to deal with. But your drama is about that, but it's actually about finding out about that person

and about more of them. And there is quite a shocking scene when you, I don't want to spoil too much, but you walk into a house and your whole world is blown apart. I think Becca's modelled herself on her mother. You know, she's been told, and Mary, the mother in the piece, has labelled herself and she's given herself, you know, what was expected of her generationally and within society that she was brought up in.

And she's kind of boxed herself in and Becca has done the same. So when she finds out that her mother isn't her mother boxed herself in and Becca has done the same so when she finds out that her mother isn't her mother in in the sense of she has this other life which is quite um creative and beautiful and otherworldly she feels really um empty because she doesn't she never knew the person she thought she knew and I think that was it was the whole thing of them Becca has to question her own life of actually well what does she want um and I and I think we get there in the end with her and her husband but um it just it speaks of not giving yourself enough um self-care really and finding out something like that must absolutely rock your life so you can

imagine how um especially about your parents because you think they are the one stable thing in your life i think um actually rosalind says you know this can't be our mum because she's dull and boring and to find out she has this other life it's it's what lots of us think our parents are dull and boring don't they but that's security but there's a really this is a lot about sisters and the relationship between sisters and there's a really funny moment in the first episode when you bar you both sort of let your guard down and literally climb the wall you put you put your feet up the walls and you you land on the floor in fits of giggles and you get back to being youthful and you uh but but you're still middle

aged women because you you snort when you laugh and you one of you wet themselves yes yeah and is is all the classic yeah all the classic those women in their 40s is was that a determined decision to make them that middle-aged genre that you don't often see on tv yeah i think happy valley did a brilliant um thing with the sisters and people loved it and we noticed that people were really talking about it so we were like oh this is good because ours is about sisters um and we and Anne-Marie who's the writer and myself are of their ages of our sisters ages in the piece and yeah we've we've got a lot to say and then the mother and obviously Stockard Channing who's the mother's age they're in their 70s we've lived a life and we've got a lot to say and I think hopefully that is another

kind of tick for um the show that we're just showing another perspective. Well, it definitely resonated with me. Now, this is a female-led cast and production. Was that important to you? Yeah, Monumental is an amazing team, predominantly female-led, as you say, and then Anne-Marie Sutoli, who was our director, who blew me away every day I absolutely loved her strength and passion for the project um and yeah it was really important because we we wanted to delve into it in um a safe way and also um a robust um way as in I wanted to talk about these characters I didn't just want to um gloss over anything so that that was important women can talk more you know in a deep way and we needed that

and I know this is as you've said it's the first production off the ground from your own production company you have with your husband but why did you want to form that company in the first place because you seem to have been doing so much without it why was it important for you to have your own company making this I think um I think for a seat at the table a seat at my own table was became very very important I've been producing for a long time I've been exec producing I've been working on scripts with people developing but me and my husband said well why don't we like a lot of actors at the moment, why don't we just see what, you know, what interests us? Because there are parts that come in that other people want me to play or that other people see me as. And then there are parts that I'm deeply interested in. And we're making a documentary at the moment as well. So it's just

about kind of never settling. And now I pull my own chair up at my own table and it feels really nice. And we're starting small and we'll see where we go, you know. It might be really surprising for people to hear that you didn't feel like you had a seat at your own table before that because from the outside you seem like an actor who's very in control because you've had so many starring roles, you know, from Scott and Bailey and Gentleman Jack and they are such strong roles. So is it true that you felt like as an actor your voice wasn't heard enough before this? Um I think it can be so not not for every project that I've done there's been a lot of amazing projects and amazing teams but yeah I think sometimes um as an actor we can be forgotten

that you know we're just there to do the job to say the lines and to to move the production on quickly and and I don't want anyone that I work with to ever feel like that I want um I want to encourage and I get such pleasure out of um growing other people's talents and watching other people do what they are meant to do you know I'm not a writer um I'm a a creative producer and I love watching Anne-Marie kind of grow this project it was it was beautiful and you know in our design team and I love all of that so I think it's about just what I find um fulfills me and fulfills other people well to give you some more inspiration to squirrel away for maybe your next projects we have got lots of

stories coming in so let me read some to you yes um this one says my dad only found out that the woman he'd called his mother all his life was not his mother but on the night before his own wedding age 25 he found out talk about timing we then found out that his mother my grandmother died a month after giving birth and none of us ever knew as my grandfather remarried and told no one about his first wife. Another one from Alan. When my mother died a few years after my father passed away, my sisters and I discovered that between the time my sister had been born and then, so a matter of eight years, she'd left my father and lived with another man and fallen pregnant. Things hadn't worked out and mum wanted to return to dad who agreed on the proviso that she put my stepbrother up for adoption so we've a stepbrother four years older than me and we know

nothing of what happened to him wow that's the story there isn't it wow um and and it's very similar to to maryland actually and honestly there are so many more lots of inspiration for you there and obviously lots of things that will mean not only people resonate with Maryland, but families go through that, don't they? And I think that's what Maryland shows so clearly, is that there's lots going on in each other's lives and there's lots of secrets people tell. There's layers of secrets, even between the two sisters, even between the dad. There's lots of secrets in families.

Yeah. And what that's kind of saying to me as well it's the societal constraints of certain situations that make people tell you tell those lies and you know they don't feel like they can come out or change change things because the effect will be so much bigger um so so i'm hopeful but you yeah, like you said, people will resonate. Even if it's not exactly the same, people will know the story. Now, I understand you mentioned this before, but the second series of Vigil is in the offing. But it's not set on a submarine this time. Can you tell us any more about it?

Thank God, Hayley. Get me above water, please. Yeah. So I am in Scotland at the moment. And then I go to Morocco to film. So we are dual places Rose Leslie is back and Gary Lewis is back and then we've got a whole other brand new cast

and we are looking towards the skies rather than the waters this time Nice to know, and Morocco there couldn't be a much better place to film It's going to be hot The Brilliant Saran Jones and Maryland airs on ITV1 at 9pm from Monday time nice to know and morocco there couldn't be much better place it's gonna be hot the brilliant saran jones and maryland airs on itv1 at 9 p.m from monday for three consecutive nights you can also stream all episodes on itvx from monday now yesterday i was asking for your first kiss on the

program but when was the first kiss in a study, scientists have suggested that humans kissing may have started 4,500 years ago in the ancient Middle East. That's 1,000 years earlier than previously thought. Scientist Dr Sophie Lund Rasmussen from the University of Oxford joined me to explain this new discovery. It's a very interesting story, actually. So kissing has been attested in ancient cuneiform language on ancient clay tablets from Mesopotamia. And the storiessyriologists, the ones specializing in this ancient culture in Mesopotamia, they knew about this ancient kissing, but they hadn't really communicated it to the public. So that's why until now, people have thought that the first documentation for kissing was 1500 BCE, but it turns out now that these ancient sources are actually dating back to 2500 BCE.

So we're basing it on art that has been created where people are depicted kissing. So what culture did we think it originated in 1500 years ago? So that was from India, ancient manuscripts from India. And now these manuscripts from Mesopotamia, that's ancient Iraq and Syria, written manuscripts actually describes kissing a thousand years before that. And what kind of kissing are we talking about? Friendly kissing, peck on the cheek, more than that? That's a sexual romantic kiss.

And do we know what happened? What more do we know about it? So we just basically know that kissing was attested throughout Mesopotamia and these ancient sources. So it would also be letters describing how kissing should only be between married couples, for example. So there was some sort of control of who you would be kissing sexually, romantically. So we have quite a lot of documentation from that. So it's been really interesting to look

into that and rewrite the history books about ancient kissing. Literally rewriting the history books. It's brilliant. And do we know that it, did it lead to any spread of diseases or cold sores? Yes, exactly. So, I mean, kissing can lead to the spread of infectious diseases, which is the types that are spread through saliva, for example. So it appears that through kissing, we have spread these different pathogens, such as the herpes simplex virus causing cold sores. And research has suggested that the advent of kissing could have, you know, boosted this spread. But the research we have just published, Torj Pankapil, my co-author, and I, indicates that kissing has been around for a very long time, widespread, at least in the Middle East and India. So the effects of kissing on disease transmission may have been more or less constant throughout history.

It's funny, when we were talking about it in the office, we just presumed that everyone has just kissed for always. Yeah, and we may have. So this is the earliest documentation of kissing, right? But when we look into the behavior of our closest living relatives, like the chimps and bonobos, they also kiss in a sexual romantic way. So that might indicate that we've been kissing for a very long time. This is just the earliest evidence. Pre-toothpaste kissing. Exactly. And it's very useful because behavioral anthropologists, they think that we actually started kissing to evaluate our partner's quality.

Because, of course, you would only want a healthy partner to spread your genes, right? So by kissing, you could evaluate, for example, bad breath. What would that tell us about the partner's quality if they don't look out for themselves or if they have poor dental health, they might be, you know, weak. So that would be a way of, you know, assessing whether the partner is one to keep. Or give them a wide berth and dodge the kiss. And rather fittingly, Sophie, you co-authored your study with your husband. Yes, exactly. And it all started over dinner.

Yes, that was basically a dinner conversation about a study that came out describing the spread of herpes simplex virus back in the Bronze Age. And we started discussing this history of kissing. And my husband, he's a seriologist at Copenhagen University, and he can read all these ancient cuneiform scripts from Mesopotamia and he went I think I could beat that with a thousand years I think the kiss is way older than that and then we had to go and investigate. Dr Sophie Lund Rasmussen there and we could have dedicated the entire hour to your first kiss stories that came flooding in here's a couple my first kiss was in a sugarcane

field in Sri Lanka when I was 15. It didn't taste like strawberries like my friend told me it would. James got in touch to say, I looked into the eyes of my best friend and asked if she'd had a cold. She said no. I said, neither do I. I leaned in and kissed her. We've been kissing every day for the last 35 years. And another one. First kiss, I was about 12. I liked the boy. All was spoiled by me sitting on an ant's nest. Ouch.

Now to our next guest, the American writer and award-winning parenting blogger, Gabrielle Blair. In 2018, Gabrielle put out a Twitter thread that went viral where she claimed that men are responsible for all unwanted pregnancies. The tweets led to a book just published called Ejaculate Responsibly, the conversation we need to have about men and contraception. According to Gabrielle, if you boil it right down, all unwanted pregnancies are caused by irresponsible ejaculations. She spoke to Hayley and explained

the argument. Well, I wanted to start with biology because it really helps people see clearly what's happening here. When I say that ovulation is involuntary, it absolutely is. We don't get to decide when an egg is fertile, if it's going to be fertile. And even if you have a very regular cycle, say you have a period every 28 days, your ovulation window can still change anytime within a 10-day period. So ovulation is very unpredictable and involuntary. And then, of course, the opposite, ejaculation is very predictable. Men's fertility is very, very predictable. We know men are fertile from puberty until death. They're fertile every single day.

But it's not 100%, is it? Not all men's sperm is completely fertile. Right. So I guess we're talking about fertile men here. We're talking about fertile men and we're talking about fertile women. For fertile men, they're fertile from puberty until death every single day. And their ejaculation is always, again, in consensual sex. We're not talking about rape here, but their ejaculation is always voluntary. So they know it's happening when it's happening. Right. So my egg is fertile 12 to 24 hours a month, which means that most of the time when I have sex, I physically cannot become impregnated.

But every single time a man has sex, he can potentially impregnate someone. So that's why I want to start with with biology. Okay. And before I want to go on, I do want to clarify one thing because your book isn't about bad men, is it? Or why women don't trust men to take precautions. It's more that men are responsible too, as well. We're all responsible in this. Oh, absolutely. The book is written by someone who has great respect for men. It's written by someone that's saying, hey, men, we need your help here. We need you to step up and ejaculate responsibly. Women are already preventing millions and millions of unwanted pregnancies every year. We have an $8 billion pregnancy prevention industry industry birth control industry that women are

funding and using the products that we're already doing a lot of work here i'm asking men to step up and do their part i'm just asking men to be responsible for their own bodies and bodily fluids because right now women are expected to be responsible for our own bodies and for men's bodies and i'm asking men to step up and be responsible for their own bodies. And you say, you know, women do take most of the responsibility when it comes to contraception. But how did we get into this mess, as you call it, in the first place where women feel like they have to take the lead on this? I have tried every form of birth control. As a mother of six, it might seem like I don't know anything about birth control, but I've actually tried pretty much every form available. And so I know just from personal

experience how difficult it can be for women to be using birth control. And then, of course, I started thinking about male birth control and really was kind of in awe of how amazing condoms are and what a bummer it is that gets such a bad rap and have, you know, so many myths about them because condoms really are the most accessible form of birth control. They're the safest. They're the only kind that, that prevents sexually transmitted infections and diseases. There is no hormonal birth control that does that. They're, you know, easily available. They're very affordable. You don't need a prescription. You don't need to use them every day just when

you're having sex for those moments where you're having sex. So that's how I got thinking about it. Just the difference is between women's birth control options and men's birth control options. No, I totally agree. But I mean, it's not the case that men aren't wearing condoms because if it was in the condom industry, we'd be out of business. I mean, is it fair to say that men aren't taking the precautions? Men aren't being responsible? I do think it's fair. We do have a lot of women who are pressured to have sex without a condom. It's a cultural, there are deep cultural things where men actually feel like it's a conquest if they can convince a woman not to use a condom, that they're somehow more manly if

they don't need to use a condom. This is not a controversial thing to say. This is common knowledge. A lot of women experience this. A lot of men experience this. There's a little quiz in my book. It's to try and point out the differences in power dynamics between men and women

and really talking about, okay, women or men, have you ever suggested to a partner that condoms are uncomfortable to you? Or have you ever not brought up condoms, hoping that your partner wouldn't bring them up either and assuming that she was taking care of birth control? And this is super, super common. So the idea that men are resistant to condoms is, I don't think a controversial thing to say at all. Yeah. And this is, it's definitely created a divide between our viewers, let me tell you, our listeners, because we've got lots of people getting in contact with me with both sides of the argument, actually. Here, someone says, men seem so shocked

when an unwanted pregnancy occurs. It's like they don't know that if they ejaculate inside a woman, there is potentially a baby. It's time for men to be more accountable for their fertility. Thank you for raising this today. But Tristan says, it's not just men's fault for unwanted pregnancies. Both parties are to blame, surely. Not the woman or the man. They are both to blame. After all, it was both of you that had sex together in order for the pregnancy to even occur. What do you say to people who say that, that it takes two to tango? Right. I mean, of course, the idea of 50-50 would be delightful. I would be so happy to see 50-50. Right now if i ask someone okay what you mean by 50 50 the man will typically say well a woman just needs to demand that a man use a condom but what that's describing

is a woman being responsible for her own body and for the man's body we've just said the woman needs to do 100 of the work so what i'm asking for is not 50-50. I'm asking for 100-100. I'd like women to take responsibility for their own bodies. I'd like men to take responsibility for their own bodies. If that was happening, we would see zero unwanted pregnancies. And that is what I'm looking for. I think this all started, didn't it, because of a tweet that you tweeted in 2018. You said, if you want to stop abortion, you need to prevent unwanted pregnancies. And men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies. No, for real, they are.

Sorry, I don't do that well without an American accent. But you also say perhaps you are thinking it takes two. And yes, it does take two for intentional pregnancies. I'm interested to know what the reaction to that was, because it must have been huge. It was huge. So you're reading one of 63 tweets in the first Twitter thread I ever wrote. And that was your first Twitter thread you ever wrote?

Yes. And it is still viral today. If I check my notifications on Twitter, there will be retweets and arguments and likes and shares right this minute on that tweet from 2018 on that Twitter thread. So reaction was amazing. What I have found, and this is amazing. I like I'm delighted by it. Anyone who's actually read the entire Twitter thread, or read the book, and the book is short, it's it's easy to read. They really don't argue with me, the only people to argue with me and they do the plenty do plenty every single day. They've read one tweet, they don't have the context, they don't have the biology to back it up. They don't have the whole argument. Anyone who's read the whole argument really is into it because what are they going to say? Men should ejaculate irresponsibly that, you know, men shouldn't wear condoms. I'm arguing for very common sense

things here. So I really haven't had a lot of pushback by anyone who's actually read the arguments. I find that really delightful. I'm so happy about it. And so what now? What do you expect the book to do? What do you expect the book to do? What are you hoping to change or happen next? Oh, I want massive social change. I just want us to think about things so differently. Right now, if I get in a car, I don't have to think about putting on my seatbelt. It's just common sense. It's just a part of my life. But that wasn't always true. I grew up without seatbelts. I was one of eight kids. We had a Volkswagen bus and it was just like we drive around.

The kids would tumble through the back seat. But then when I was 16, they introduced seatbelt laws. I was just getting my driver's license. And at first I thought no one's going to wear a seatbelt. Then some really cool kids from the big city were visiting my town. They wanted to go joyriding. They wouldn't start the car till we started or till we put on our seatbelts. And I had an instant shift where I was like, oh, I guess seatbelts are really cool.

I didn't know. Seatbelts are cool now. Right. And I want people to not have to think about, will I ejaculate responsibly? They just know they would only do that. That some cool older brother somewhere has told them, I would never ejaculate irresponsibly.

I would never risk my partner's life like that. I would never risk her health and her job and just her body. I'm of course, I'm going to ejaculate responsibly. And I don't want to be a father yet. I don't want to be stuck with child support payments or the responsibilities that come with parenthood. I'm going to ejaculate responsibly. And that's, this is not a big ask. I'm not saying don't have sex. I'm not saying don't have pleasurable sex. I'm just saying, be careful with your sperm. It can cause pregnancy. And we seem to forget that fact.

Gabrielle Blair speaking to Hayley and her book, Ejaculate Responsibly, is out now. That's all we've got time for this afternoon. But don't forget, Woman's Hour is back on Monday at 10am. Nuala will be hearing from two women who lived through the troubles in Northern Ireland on the 25th anniversary of the referendum being held on the Good Friday Agreement. That's Monday from 10am. From me though, have a great rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.