Woman's Hour - Surrogacy and Single Fatherhood

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

It's been announced that around 31,000 women in England will be offered the opportunity to do a smear test at home. It's all part of a trial by the NHS and experts hope it'll be a way to encourage more women to screen for the early warnings of cervical cancer. It's another step in helping women take charge of their own reproductive health. There are two consultations open at the moment. One which may see us being able to buy two brands of the contraception ‘Mini’ pills over the counter. The other is looking at whether to make permanent the current temporary arrangement allowing early medical home abortions, using pills sent through the post. Professor Lesley Regan, former chair of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists joins Emma to discuss the impact of these potential changes.David Watkins is a 42 year old teacher from Southampton and is one of the first single men in the UK to have a surrogate baby after a law change in January 2019. Previously, only couples were able to apply for a parental order, which transfers parentage from the surrogate to the intended parents after the baby is born. With the help of surrogacy and egg donation, David became a father to baby Miles in July 2020. Faye Spreadbury, a married mother of two, took on the role of surrogate. They join Emma to discuss the experience.Many of us have learned to work remotely over the last year and Parliament is no exception. This has allowed MPs to attend to Parliamentary business from their home. The Centenary Action Group is a cross-party coalition of over 100 activists, politicians and organisations that campaigns to lower barriers to women’s political participation. They say these measures should be allowed to continue once the pandemic ends as it would not only benefit MPs but would allow and encourage more women, those with BAME backgrounds and people who have disabilities to enter politics. Their 'Remotely Representative House' report sets out 21 recommendations for the future. The convenor of the group is Helen Pankhurst and Daisy Cooper MP is the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats. CBBC's Newsround has made its first ever film dedicated to menstruation, in the hope of breaking taboos and getting more girls - and boys - to talk about periods. The presenter, Lauren Layfield, talks about why ‘Let’s Talk About Periods’ is needed and what it was like discussing her own menstruation on film. She's joined by Chella Quint, the founder of Period Positive and a tireless campaigner for better menstrual education in schools and for society as a whole. Chella explains why there's still so much shame around menstruation and what needs to happen to break the cycle.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Professor Lesley Regan Interviewed Guest: Faye Spreadbury Interviewed Guest: David Watkins Interviewed Guest: Dr Helen Pankhurst Interviewed Guest: Daisy Cooper Interviewed Guest: Lauren Layfield Interviewed Guest: Chella Quint

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Something is going on in women's health, which has been driven in part by the pandemic and the need to reduce the burden on doctors and the NHS. As you've been hearing in the news bulletins today, we've learned of a new trial that will now see some women being offered the chance to do a smear test at home.

This builds on what we heard last week, that we might be able to, in the near distant future, buy two types of the contraceptive pill over the counter for the first time. Those who need it, of course. And also last week, we were told that the changes allowing abortion at home, medical abortions, could become permanent. What do you make of these changes? Some would say they're long overdue and it looks like women are being trusted and being given more control. Is that your take? Others will be concerned, though, that perhaps things are changing too fast and not for the better and have questions about the role of doctors in all of this. Tell us your view, perhaps your own experience as well, if you care to share.

84844, that's how you can text us. You can get in touch with us on social media, at BBC Women's Hour, or email us through our website. Already messages coming in on this. One on Twitter which says, women having control of reproductive health matters. Well, all health matters, really, and it's positive. My fear would be that it may lead to real or perceived barriers

for women in terms of access to healthcare, specialist advice and support. So there's a fear there as well as support. Another message here, bodily autonomy is always a positive step. Contraception and abortion pills available at home or by post after a phone or video consultation is a great idea. Nobody likes having a smear test, so lots of women do not go. But I'm slightly concerned

about the correct sample collection. So that's another one here. But one more on the subject of home smear tests. Should the focus not be on destigmatising the process as a whole rather than making it DIY? I find it very concerning that we're so desperate to remove medical staff from medical situations, be that a smear test or making the pill available over the counter. And so those messages continue. Have your voice heard. Get in touch. Also on today's programme, from medical situations, be that a smear test or making the pill available over the counter. And so those messages continue. Have your voice heard. Get in touch. Also on today's programme, Faye Spreadbury will be joining us.

She is a surrogate for one of the first single men in the UK to take advantage of that 2019 law change that allows single people to choose surrogacy. And remote Parliament. Should a virtual House of Commons become a permanent fixture post the pandemic? Dr Helen Pankhurst will make the case. That's all to come. But first, it has been announced today that around 31,000 women in England will be offered the opportunity to do a smear test at home.

It's all part of a trial by the NHS, and experts hope it will be a way to encourage more women to screen for the early warnings of cervical cancer. It is another step in helping women take charge of their own reproductive health, or that's one way of seeing it. There are two other consultations open at the moment, one which may see women be able to buy two brands of the contraceptive pills over the counter, we've just been talking about that, and the other, whether to make permanent the current temporary arrangement allowing home abortions. With me now is Professor Leslie Regan, past president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, an author of that organisation's Better for Women report and now chair of the charity Wellbeing of Women.

Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Has this change been accelerated by the pandemic? I think it has. I think it's been one of the upsides of this last year that there's been the need to find workarounds and to cut through bureaucratic red tape as well to ensure that women can access the maintenance services they need.

The three things that you've talked about, you know, smears and contraception and telemedicine abortion, they're not ill. These are not diseases. They're services that women need to access to maintain their health. And in particular, with the smears and the contraception over the counter, it's a wonderful way to promote prevention over and above episodic intervention when things go wrong, and also to give women the information and the empowerment they need to look after their health. Because I'm a great believer that if you give women the right information, they're extremely good at looking after themselves.

They're number 51% of the population, but they influence the health behaviours of all the rest of society. So I think it's a great step forward. I know, and we're joining some dots here, but it is a picture of which you would have overseen yourself as the former president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, this idea of what you can do where, what you can trust women to do at home. And we should also say, you know, it's very practical in some ways, because some of what we're talking about would be more comfortable for women to do in their their own home very much so and i

think we also have to thank covid for shining a very strong spotlight on the groups of disadvantaged women and groups and minority minority ethnic groups for example who have been particularly disadvantaged by the fractured commissioning that we've had of many aspects of women's health services in the past so i think this is a wonderful way in which we've had of many aspects of women's health services in the past. So I think this is a wonderful way in which we could try and overcome some of those barriers and level up, as our prime minister is frequently reminding us we need to do. So I think that we should be welcoming them and concentrating on ways to make them accessible to as many women as possible. I'm just looking at some of the messages coming in.

The concerns that are coming in, which doesn't cover all types of concern, but if I could paraphrase them, are around the removal of people like you, the idea of not seeing doctors as much. Why are we not working more to destigmatise, for instance, smear tests and the reasons for some women not coming in and rather you know putting it in the home space well a good point but and i'm glad you've asked it because i think there's no question about me disappearing or any of my younger colleagues either i think we'll still need gynecologists to look after women when they have specific problems and also to be giving them

a further advice when they have further questions but but you don't need a doctor to perform your cervical smear and as we've seen from the study today in Keene's in fact you can do it yourself to identify if you've got the HPV virus in your vaginal swab and therefore need further help so I think that many doctors in my profession in gynecology have been incredibly frustrated over recent years. So, for example, Emma, if you came to me because you had a problem with your periods and I have a specialist menstrual disorders clinic, I could give you a Mirena coil, but I couldn't give it to you for contraception because I'm not commissioned to provide contraception. And at the same time, while I'm fitting your myrana coil cervical smear so i would argue that it's a really unfortunate for emma barnett to have to go and see two or possibly

three doctors or clinics or practice nurses to you know get her myrana coil to sort out her periods and also have her smear done and get some contraception this is good i feel like i'm getting a consultation now on air which is just just helpful because, you know, time is short. But, you know, let's put my gynecological issues, of which there are many, to one side for the moment. Got to sort of laugh about these things. But around, and I know you've been particularly vocal around this, the idea of home abortions, we should stress here we're talking about medical abortions, has been a particular anathema yes it is and i it's a subject that people can get have can have very very firm views about what i would say to anybody who was worried about this

is that the evidence is very clear that the telemedicine abortion service that the uk has been able to provide since the pandemic and since matt Hancock changed the special orders on March the 30th last year, we have seen a reduction in complications and a very large number of women being able to access abortion without travelling and without having to sort out childcare and at an earlier gestational age. And as you know, Emma, for every week of pregnancy that passes, the complication rates go up. And so I think that's been a very positive step forward. I know that some people feel that this shouldn't be possible, but I would just ask them to reflect on the fact that if you live in a society where abortion is illegal or very difficult to access, the problem does not go away. It just goes

underground. And for anybody who's listening to this who's had any experience of pre-1967 in this country or has worked overseas in sub-saharan africa and some parts of southeast asia more recently you will know that the problem actually kills girls and women so women don't stop trying to find an abortion because it's illegal or because it's difficult to access and i think as a gynecologist and as a previous leader of the RCOG, my job was to ensure that my colleagues in the workforce looking after women's health were well trained to be able to look after these problems in a safe, legal and compassionate way. We've had a question come in, going back to birth control, because of course you've looked across all of

this in your in your former role and your continued work Liz says if the birth control pill becomes available certainly two that's what's being looked at over the counter then presumably HRT will also become available as it is on the continent it's clinically safer and carries fewer risks that would be a good thing. Have you heard anything about that? Well, it would be the next step, wouldn't it? Liz is one step ahead, obviously, of perhaps where the government wants to go. We have to do it stepwise because that seems to be the only way we can pull everyone along beside us. But I would agree.

You see, the progesterone-only pill, the third generation desergestrel pill, that is being that the MHRA has now deemed as safe to be dispensed over the counter, it actually controls ovulation, so it's almost as effective as the combined oral contraceptive pill. But I would say to anybody who's got concerns about this that it's an absolute fact that if you have a medical problem or have a risk factor, that it is far safer that you take the desuggestrel, progesterone-only pill to prevent yourself becoming pregnant than becoming pregnant unexpectedly.

And I think that's a very important issue for everyone to remember. And the other thing that I would say about the pandemic, it's allowed us, for example, in northwest London at the Imperial Group of Hospitals, where I currently work, to provide women who've just delivered a baby with long-acting reversible contraception. But the questions that most of those

recently delivered mothers say, well, will it interfere with breastfeeding? And all of the options that we've provided for these mums who've just had a baby provides them with a long-acting reversible contraception that is entirely compatible with breastfeeding and that just means that she can decide if and when and with whom she has another pregnancy and doesn't find

herself caught short unexpectedly. We will have to leave it there. Professor Leslie Regan, thank you very much for your time, the past president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and now chair of the charity Wellbeing of Women. It's certainly got you going in terms of your views and experiences. I'll come back to those messages very shortly. But to talk about, if you like, the people making some of these decisions, government, MPs, parliamentarians, many of us have learned to work remotely over the last year in parliament is no exception. MPs have been attending to parliamentary business virtually from their home. Not all parliamentary business, but a lot of it.

The Centenary Action Group, which is a not only benefit MPs and would allow, it would allow and encourage more women from a more diverse background and those with disabilities to enter politics. The convener of the group is Dr Helen Pankhurst and Daisy Cooper MP is the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats. Good morning to both of you. Helen, if I could start with you, of course, continuing the great work of your great grandmother, Emmeline Pankhurst here, trying to get as many women involved in politics as possible.

How do you see this actually encouraging more women perhaps to get into it? Thanks, Emma. Yeah, more than 100 years later, there's still so much to be done. And if we just look at this particular issue, what hybrid parliament, which would be a parliament that allows both face-to-face parliament, the traditional one, and the online flexible adaptation that we have seen recently, what we're saying is that that hybrid parliament going forward, not just during a pandemic, but at any times would allow more flexibility and would allow in particular those who find the current very, very traditional way of doing things problematic. Those who find it difficult would find a better way, would find it easier. So just imagine that you live very,

very far away from Westminster. That makes it difficult. Imagine you've got children. Imagine you might have parents. Imagine you might have some issue about personal disability. All the real, real factors that human beings have to experience. You know, are you saying that anybody with those factors should basically not be a parliamentarian? You can only be a parliamentarian if you happen to live nearby and if you don't have these real experiences. Unless we address that, unless we allow people with all of their diversity, with all of the reasons why this is a very hard job, unless we open it up we will still in a hundred years time be in a situation where we have 34% of women in parliament, where BAME people are not represented enough, where disabled people feel

they don't have a voice. And the problem with that, the problem with that is the policies then reflect the interests of a minority, the elite minority, and we just can't keep going this way. A government spokesperson said the government firmly believes constituents are best served when members of Parliament represent them in person in Westminster when restrictions allow. We're determined to do more to foster a more welcoming democratic culture including the wider rollout of proxy voting, steps to tackle online abuse and intimidation, initiatives by political parties and improved provision of support for MPs with parenting and other commitments, efforts to promote greater diversity of representation in the House of Commons has contributed to the 2019 general election

returning the most diverse parliament yet. You know, if I may paraphrase that, it looks a bit like give us some more time and we'll do more proxy voting. Is that enough? No. I mean, you know, honestly, how long do we have to wait? Yes, the trends have been vaguely positive. But on the other hand, if you look at some of the other trends, they're not. So if you look at the percentage of women and cabinet members now, we're something like 21.7%.

I think that's the right figure. That's the same that we had in 2004. So yes, slowly, maybe we are. We're trying to talk about diversity and, you know, fair enough. But it's just not good enough. It's too slow. Let's get Daisy in on this because, you know, she is a woman in Parliament looking at this and also experiencing some of the virtual practices. Come back to you in a moment, Helen. Daisy, do you think it's been at a disadvantage for your constituents or more difficult in any way to do parliamentary work remotely?

It's been different. I wouldn't say it's been a disadvantage. I mean, let's be honest, there are lots of MPs in every single party that want to be back in Westminster. We know we like the cut and thrust of debate. We miss that. And we're not saying we should do away with that. I think what we're saying is that we should retain remote participation as an option for any MP who needs it. Now, you know, I was really, really excited to be elected in December 2019. But as an MP with a hidden disability, getting my head around Parliament as a workplace was a real shock. You know, one of the effects of my condition is that I get incredibly thirsty. But when I first arrived, I was told that I would have to ask for permission to use a water bottle in the chamber.

I should say the speaker was fantastic and didn't hesitate to say yes, but I was really shocked that I even had to ask. Can we just say you have Crohn's disease, don't you? I have Crohn's disease and I've had major surgery as a result of that. And that's why I get very thirsty. But in addition to that, I have to plan what I eat and when I eat and how much I eat. And there's a constant thing at the back of my mind, thinking about how to juggle that with the day job. And before COVID, there were no public call lists. You could be in and out of the chamber for hours on end, not knowing whether you would get called to speak at all. And if so, when that might be.

And you have to bob up and down, standing up, sitting down, standing up, sitting down, just to get the speaker's attention, to be able to ask a question. Now, if you have to plan your food or your medication, you've got two options. Either you self censor and you opt out, so you don't even take part in a particular debate. Or as I've done on many occasions, just not to eat for 12 hours, and you have to put yourself through an endurance test. And that's just not sustainable. And it's not inclusive. So I mean, your hope here from what

you're saying is that we, you know, we're in a situation where the pandemic is used to improve the conditions when you're there and also give you the option to be virtual. Absolutely. Now, as somebody with a long term condition, I'm very aware that there's people around the country who have fluctuating conditions. Given the choice, if you want to take part in a debate and it's a really important debate, you're going to choose to go into Westminster, because you want to be there, you want to see your colleagues, you want to take part in the cut and thrust, you want to hear everything that isn't picked up on the microphones. So there's nobody that wants to do away with what's happening, do away with the physical Parliament. But it is important that we retain the remote participation as an option whenever people need it. And that could be because they have a disability. It could be because they have a fluctuating condition.

It could be because they're a long way from Parliament. It could be because of childcare. And we heard just last week from one MP who was trying to recover from long COVID. And he explained very eloquently that it took him all of his energy for the day just to ask a 30 second question of a minister. And that's not uncommon for people with long term conditions. And I don't believe they should be excluded from Parliament just because of the endurance test that we have to be put through.

Helen Pankhurst, do you really believe that these changes, while you can make the cases for them in the way that we've just been hearing, do you really believe taking a step back, that if Parliament is virtual or a hybrid, as you put it, suddenly we'll have huge swathes of people going, do you know what, I'd love to be an MP. I'd love to be in public life. I'd love to have all of the things that come with that, but also all of the abuse, scrutiny and actually, you know, what some would say, it's just not worth it. Do you really think that's going to sell it to them? I think on its own, it won't. But it's part of what we're saying Parliament is about and who it's for. It's an indicator of the need for change. There are many others. So right now, I mean, last week, the maternity leave issue came up. The fact that in the 21st century,

all MPs still do not have an automatic formal leave provision you know so there are a whole range of issues that we need to campaign on but this one right now is of the moment and we feel that with this flexibility and again we're not saying just scrap face-to-face we're absolutely saying trust the MPs be flexible and that is a more efficient approach, and it's most likely to be... But Hanna, you've just touched upon something which we know is a problem, trusting MPs. Trust in MPs, I mean, maybe I should ask the MP, Daisy, trust in MPs, we know has suffered hugely. And the idea that you could just, I'm not diminishing this, but just, you know, click in on Zoom, or whatever the platform that's being used, we already saw the expenses scandal,

what happened there? Well, you're absolutely right that I think public trust in politicians and in politics, you know, is very low. And that's something that a number of MPs want to challenge. But that shouldn't be an excuse for excluding MPs that do want to take part and take their responsibilities very seriously. As I've said, you know, when I'm in Parliament physically, I want to take part. I want to ask questions on behalf of my constituents. I want to debate legislation. I want to speak up on various issues of concern to me and the people that I represent. And what I'm saying is it should be made an inclusive environment so I can do that irrespective of whether I'm at home and perhaps not very well on one day

or whether I want to go into Parliament to do it. Well, as ever with politics, it seems to be a debate. We'll see where it ends up. Daisy Cooper MP, thank you. Dr Helen Pankhurst, thank you to you. Jane says, fantastic for us in terms of having this hybrid at the moment for those who want to listen to the debate. No more braying boys club atmosphere. It's been a delight. Bring it on. Talking there about the tone and tenure of the Commons and of the Chamber when it comes to debates at the moment. Far easier for people to be listening in

or watching in at home. Keep your messages coming in on 84844. Now, David Watkins is a 42-year-old teacher from Southampton and one of the first single men in the UK to have a surrogate baby after a law change in January 2019. Previously, only couples were able to apply for a parental order which transfers parentage from the surrogate to the intended parents after the baby is born. With the help of surrogacy and egg donation, David became a father to baby Miles in July of last

year. Faye Spreadbury is a married mum of two and she took on the role of surrogate, a hugely important role for him and for Miles of course. They join me now to discuss making a spot of history together. Good morning to both of you. I might start with you, actually, and ask because this, of course, begins in some ways with your decision to become a surrogate. Good morning. Hi there. Yes. A couple of years ago, I'd been a social worker for 10 years and I'd gone in deep. And I certainly wasn't fulfilled from that. So I spoke to my husband and we discussed doing something a bit bigger to help someone.

And I'd had we'd finished our family. I've got two boys. We didn't want to have any more. And it was something that was quite uncomplicated for us. So we joined an agency and became members of a surrogacy organisation that help you meet people that want to be parents. I mean, it's an incredible thing to want to do and then to go through with doing. How have you found the process? Luckily, really smooth. You work out your expenses first so that you're not out of pocket in any way.

And I did that before meeting David. Then we got to view people's profiles within the agency. And I spotted David because he's a teacher and I'm a social worker. And I thought, you know, he'd have the same values as me. But it turned out that he's also an artist, he's a writer and my husband's a musician. So we met at a surrogacy social and they clicked and my boys met him. And then we asked my boys if they're happy for me to do it. know we um see them as our equals and we um asked their permission and they were quite excited so we through the agency we made an offer to help David it's a it's an incredible moment for you David I imagine because you were you were searching

before we reflect on that with you why did you want to to do this why did you want to become a solo dad as it were well I had the desire to be a father for pretty much as far as back as I can remember and I certainly wanted to have a biological connection with my son well at that point with my child um so you know I was never someone who really needed to be in a relationship to feel content or fulfilled and I always knew this was kind of my desire and my desire alone and it was just something that I knew I could go forward with on my own but of course at the time when I was researching it I realised that single people couldn't sign parental orders and engage in a surrogacy that way and so it was just a waiting game really until that law changed in 2019

and then at that point I joined Surrogacy UK and away I went. We should say you've got Miles, baby Miles, next to you. Yeah, he's sitting next to me. Hello, if he can hear us, hello. It's nice to know he's there. I mean, everyone's with their kids a lot more now at home anyway, aren't they?

But it's certainly a big commitment regardless. But to do on your own, I know you do have some support, don't you, from your parents. Is that right? Yeah, my parents are there to help me out when I need it and to give me some respite. So I'm eternally grateful that they're there in our lives. But it's tough. It's really tough to do as a single parent and as a first time parent as well, when you're just learning the ropes and learning as you go.

And I think, you know, 2020 was an incredibly difficult year to have a child and to bring up a baby during lockdown has been really hard. But we've got a lot of support from friends and family and we're doing well and he's thriving. And, you know, it's all because of Faye and her family. We just wouldn't be here. He's an absolute dream come true.

What has been, to stay with you, David, for a moment more, what has it been like in terms of the response? Because you have made headlines in terms of, you know, being one of the first to do this. And I wonder, has there been support? What sort of reactions have you had? Yeah, certainly, I think there are men who have done it before me, but I think I'm probably more high profile just because, you know,

I was the first man in surrogacy UK, single man in surrogacy UK to do it. And in general, the support has been fantastic. I've had lots of positivity. I've had no real criticism. I did a couple of articles in the press, and it was only through those that I started to see some negativity and some of the comments, you know, a lot of toxicity out there around my what they term selfish needs to become a father and really to do it without a mother role as well.

That seems to be something that people couldn't contemplate. I was going to say, on that particular point, did you engage with those people did you reply to i presume there were comments i mean you always get told never to read these comments but it's really difficult not to of course but no i don't engage with that kind of criticism i think it's you know those those people would never say that kind of thing to my face it's not something that you would you know say in a meaningful one-to-one dialogue with somebody i think they're just saying it because there's no consequences to those kind of comments online. But I think it does...

I think solo men having children do scare people, I think, because we don't know how to reap that. We're not familiar with the idea that a man can have a paternal desire so fierce that they would want to raise a child without a woman. So we don't really know how to deal with those kind of families at the moment. You all right? He just wants to make himself heard, that's all. I appreciate that.

From a young age, we welcome that here on Woman's Hour. Let me go back to Faye at this point, and you can have a little chat with Miles. Faye, in terms of your attachment to the baby, to Miles, were you nervous about that, being a surrogate for the first time? I had no doubt, really, that I was just looking after a friend's baby. And I certainly had no doubt that I didn't want any more children and that I would feel maternal towards David's baby. But people did say things to me like, you know, how do you feel giving your baby

away? And that is what you're doing. And unfortunately, they just don't understand that you can carry someone else's child, you know, for their happiness. And it's momentary, you know, it's nine months, it's for someone else's lifetime of happiness. you know it's nine months it's for someone else's lifetime of happiness I think it's totally worth it we should say it worked first time is that right in terms of the embryo transfer it was quite simple it was quite straightforward because that you know that side of it can also be complicated yeah absolutely I mean it's IVF so the percentages of success aren't high. So we have been really lucky.

And the pregnancy wasn't complicated. And Miles was born at my home and straight. David was in the birthing pool with me. And the midwife caught the baby and put him straight on David's chest. And we relaxed there for a little bit while the cord emptied and then um david was able to go home then well within six hours or so wow david that's wonderful david what was that like for you what are your memories of that uh it's it was an incredible moment i mean i was i was kind of waiting for the the indication from the midwife to get into the pool.

When she said, I think it's about time now, I popped in and sat there supporting Faye. What do I do? I was being really nervous. Then I gradually saw him coming out and his head crowning. Here he came with my long sought-after son that I've wanted for so many years. He just torpedoed out torpedoed out into the water and then it you know it just it just all went blank for me I I went

into some deeper part of myself you know and and I was I was just away when I held him it was it was an indescribable feeling I I just never thought as a single gay man I never thought this would be my future you know I'd written it off a long time ago. So to actually be here with my son and have that and have him in my arms, it was, it's life changing and our lives have been totally turned around by it. And also, I read that you have been very moved by your parents' reaction to you being able to give them a grandchild. I know they already had grandchildren, but that is also another element of this.

Yes, I always was looking forward to the time when I could introduce my child to my parents, but I didn't realise quite how much it would move me and quite how much I looked forward to seeing their interactions whenever I bring him round. He absolutely adores his grandfather and grandmother and they completely dote on him, but to see that interaction across the generations um with my child and my my parents is is something

that is is priceless actually it's special to see how are you going to discuss the subject with with when he's older have you thought about those conversations i'm sure there are guide there is guidance on this but but have you thought about how you're going to do it? Yeah, I think about it all the time. And in actual fact, as well as talking about Faye, I talked to him about his egg donor because his embryo was created with an anonymous egg donor. He can find information about her when he's 18. But it's an ongoing dialogue, really. It's not something that I'm waiting for him to be of an age that I can sit down and have a conversation.

It's just something that we talk about all the time we have a little picture book with pictures of faye um and lee and the boys so he he knows he recognizes their face we talk on facetime so it's just something that you slowly start introducing and building up and then when he's able to understand the language it's just going to be part of his story for him it will be normal it's not going to be abnormal it's going to be part of his story. For him, it will be normal. It's not going to be abnormal for him. It's going to be part of his story. A very quick question to you. Are you going to have another one, David? They always ask that, don't they? Yeah, I mean, women get asked it all the time as well, by the way. Well, OK, so it's a bit more complicated for me just to go and decide to have a sibling.

So things need to be in place and i need to carefully consider um finances and um whether it's right for mars and whether it's right for me i mean i have three embryos on ice right so uh i i've always wanted a big family so we'll see further down the line but i know that being a solo dad and raising a little boy has been you know hard and difficult and uh but we've we've made it through and we're in a good place to do it again, but with a little toddler crawling around. I don't know how you know, but women do it and men do it. So, you know, who knows?

Who knows? Okay, well, I wanted to ask the same thing for the circus. Would you be a surrogate again, do you think? Yeah, absolutely. I think we gained a lot from helping David. Someone else's happiness is our happiness. We're really happy as a family. And if we can, we absolutely would. Yeah. background, you know, gurgling away, making his debut on national radio. Now talking about those who are younger amongst us, BBC's Newsround, sharing the news of the day with children, of course, since 1972, covers a lot of ground, but until now hasn't made a dedicated film to periods. It's aptly called Let's Talk About Periods and aimed at their six to 12 year old

audience. Here's a clip of some year seven pupils, boys and girls, talking about where they learned about periods. I think I learnt about it in Year 5. I imagine you with all your classmates. Yeah. Learning about it. So what was that like? The nurse didn't make it seem so weird, but when my teacher did it, he made it seem really funny and weird. Do you think he was making a joke out of it because it was a bit awkward?

Yeah, I think he did. I might have had little chats with my mum, but I didn't exactly, like, had one massive chat with her about it. I just picked up bits and bobs over the years. My mum don't want me to be, like, quite comfortable with it and I am completely comfortable talking about it. I feel like dads get a bit more embarrassed than mums because mums go through it, they know about it and stuff like that

and dads don't really want to talk about it. How does it feel talking about periods right now in front of the boys? I feel like the boys should know about it too because just because girls go through it doesn't mean boys don't have to be educated on it. It's good for boys to understand as well because then they can be more understanding for their girl best friends or their mums or their sisters. Would you feel more comfortable

talking to an adult do you say or one of your mates? I'd say your mates because they're the same age as you and they're going to go through the same thing as you and everything whereas your parents they're a bit older than you. Yeah, but parents can make you just seem really weird and annoying. Parents are weird and annoying, aren't they? The presenter you heard there is Lauren Layfield, who's on the line, and I'm also joined by one of the interviewees in the film and the author and founder of the period-positive educational movement as well as some books around periods, Chela Quint.

Lauren, I'll start with you. This is the first film solely about periods for CBBC and Newsround together, right? Yeah. So in the past, CBBC have often covered things that are relevant to young people. So Puberty Has Been Touched did a fantastic Operation Out show all about what it's like to grow up. But yeah, this is the kind of first time that we've really got into what a period is and why we have periods and how we have periods and how we deal with periods. So it's very exciting, actually, to be able to be a part of it.

And although we could hear there, there was a discussion from some Year 7s around this, you know, a lot of them are not going to be clued up at all well it's interesting I think you know we often think about the education that we had when we were at school and certainly I don't think we learned about it uh my class until we were about year eight so that was knocking on nearly age what 13 14 actually now in schools the curriculum does cover it a lot earlier so you get that in primary schools which is amazing and when you think you're getting girls who are now starting their period at the age of eight it is very necessary so news round have just basically reflected what is being taught already out there but I think what's really special about what they've done is that they've

really kind of you really kind of made it personal like, this is what is kind of going to happen to you. No, it's a very lovely and actually joyful film that you've created. So congratulations for that. Thank you. I mean, a message there from Lauren around things improving a bit in schools. But what's your take on that around menstrual education? Because it's been a real fight, hasn't it? It absolutely has.

It's been a long time coming but menstrual well-being is now part of the national curriculum from primary so it's encouraged to teach about puberty before it happens right up through secondary but there's no curriculum guide so part of my master's research dissemination has included developing a curriculum guide and sharing it for anyone who would like to use it it's's been tested, it's been peer reviewed, it's had input from doctors, teachers and pupils. But it's difficult to sort of do this with a framework that I've written through my research. I wish there were already a national framework, because then everybody would be on the same page rather than having to, you know, scramble and learn piecemeal because it's been added to the curriculum. What do you think the right age is,

to start saying to boys and girls, periods are something that happen? I think as soon as a toddler or, you know, a three-year-old asks a parent about the new baby brother or sister they might be expecting or what those menstrual products are that they're using in the loo, it's OK to say something simple. And, you know, in language they understand because that they're using in the loo, it's okay to say something

simple and, you know, in language they understand because if they're old enough to ask, they're old enough to know a little something and the danger of not saying anything is that you're accidentally teaching them that it's something taboo and when we get that message as we grow up, we internalize some shame around it and then we don't ask important health questions later. Lauren why did you want to present this what's your connection to this? I it was a few years ago actually I was on a train and I needed to go and deal with my period and I did the age-old thing that I'd done since I was at school which is that I got the tampon out of my handbag and I shoved it up my sleeve so that nobody on the train, God forbid, would see that I had to go and deal with my period. I was going to say the age old sleeve smuggle.

Yeah, exactly. We all know it. Every girl knows it. And it just dawned on me that I was a 26 year old woman still behaving in a way that was shameful. And I just made a decision then there that I was going to stop because this to me is something that should be as open and honest about, you know, if you're in a meeting, you go, well, I'm off to the loo. Do you know, we shouldn't have this stigma around it. And it's mind blowing that it still exists. And I just thought, what a fantastic way for me to be able to tell the younger generation that actually you don't have to behave like I am on this train and that you have a freedom and there's a liberty that you

can have in being honest and open about this very natural bodily function that we all have. And a lot of people will be saying amen to that. Shelley, you've got a period positive pledge. Tell us about that. Yes. So the Period Positive Pledge is a 20-step framework that allows anyone, individual, school, charity, organisation, government, to sort of upskill their menstrual literacy. So we've all got different types of literacy and it helps navigate every topic we might come across. Menstrual literacy is about not being afraid of questions, making sure that your environment is supportive of menstruators,

it's inclusive of anyone who gets a period, and also that anyone is welcome to be educated and find out more, and that we're constantly learning. So the last step of the pledge is these pledges may change. And the feedback that I get from schools and teachers and charities is that it's really valuable as is, and I'm able to help people with specific points that they're struggling with. But also they're able to see that actually quite a lot of that stuff comes naturally to them. And despite the sort of, you know, the free leaflet,

kids separated in class education that a lot of us had, they've learned a lot and they know more than they think they know and they're open to more difficult discussions. Well, and also the era hopefully where boys are sent out of the room is over as they are told to, I don't know, go and do something else or talk about something else or play football, whatever. You've got a couple of books on this in terms of one for kids, Own Your Own Period, which is similar to territory we've just been talking about.

But I think it's also striking that you've done one for adults with a Q&A format because a lot of people don't know what a period is. And that was the hardest question to answer in the book because it's so many things. There's so many aspects of it. That was almost the whole book itself. Chella, what do you say in a sentence? What is a period? So, okay. So be period positive is a hundred questions and answers about periods. And they've all been asked to me. So I answer it in a few different ways in the book. I talk about the makeup, what menstrual blood actually is and where it comes from and why. I talk about why we get periods and how we've evolved to do that. And I also talk about socially, what is a period and how have we internalized menstrual taboos and what is period positivity and what's the point of that? So it's sort of like a

four-part answer. And then I also talk about fertility and the menopause because, of course, that is now part of what the curriculum should include for secondary school pupils. And it's difficult to teach if we haven't been taught it. And we haven't been given enough funding to be trained. But I'm hoping that, you know, the books like own your period and be positive are for kids and grownups outside of school. But inside of school, I'm still absolutely on the case to try and make sure there is a curriculum model that teachers can follow, that teaches every age and stage the stuff that not only...

We're homeschooling, or teachers are homeschooling I should say a lot at the moment. We'll see where this all comes out. The film which is called Let's Talk About Periods is out on the 8th of March on CBBC and iPlayer and that's what we've done this morning. We've talked about it here on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. A new podcast series from BBC Radio 4. In the first stage of a poltergeist haunting, the entity will confine itself to making noise as if it's testing its victims. The Battersea Poltergeist. My name's Shirley Hitchens. I'm 15 years old.

I live with my mum, dad, brother, gran and Donald. Subscribe to The Battersea Poltergeist on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year On BBC Sounds. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.