Woman's Hour - Surviving cancer five times, Government's independent rape advisor, Miners’ strike 40 years on, My Life with the Walter Boys

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

Violence and abuse against shop workers rose to 1,300 incidents a day last year, up by 50% in the year to September 2023. That's according to new figures by the British Retail Consortium. Nuala hears from Michele Whitehead, a workplace rep for USDAW who has worked at a convenience store in Wolverhampton for 20 years.Dr Natalie Yates-Bolton is 57 and has survived cancer five times. The senior lecturer in nursing was first diagnosed at the age of 22 whilst still at university. She's had 11 operations, 30 sessions of chemotherapy and 55 rounds of radiotherapy. Natalie joins Nuala McGovern to discuss what’s helped her get through three decades of cancer care. Professor Katrin Hohl is the new independent advisor to the Government on rape. She joins Nuala to discuss her new role, and her priorities for change. Forty years ago next month most of the coal miners in the UK went on strike over pit closures and proposed redundancies. The strike lasted a year and was one of the most divisive conflicts of a generation. On Sunday, BBC Two is broadcasting Miners’ Strike: A frontline Line Story, which features personal testimony from men and women on the frontline of the strike. Nuala’s joined by two women who were there at the time to discuss their experiences: Lisa McKenzie appears in the film and was a teenager when her dad was on the picket lines and Heather Wood was also very active in the strike. My Life with the Walter Boys is a teen drama on Netflix that hit 12 million views in it’s first week alone. It was adapted from a book written by Ali Novak when she was just 15 years old. She joins Nuala to talk about the transformation of her book to a hit series along with the executive producer who adapted the story, Melanie Halsall.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Great to be back with you today. Well, coming up, a woman who is thriving after five cancer diagnoses. She says she feels fortunate despite dealing with Hodgkin's lymphoma and breast cancer multiple times. Natalie Yates-Bolton is healthy. She's now cancer free and she skis regularly and she speaks of her ski suit as a symbol of her endurance. I'd like to hear from you today if there's something that you hold dear that reminds you of getting through something difficult. Could be clothing or an item or maybe a place

that makes you think of you being able to overcome adversity. Tell us your story. We'll hear Natalie's this hour. You can text the programme. That number is 84844. Text CHARGE at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or indeed

email us through our website or indeed WhatsApp. [phone] if you'd like to leave us a voice note. Also, it is 40 years since the miners' strike. The standoff between the miners and the government lasted a whole year with repercussions for some that are still felt today. Two women will tell us how it affected their lives and the lives of those they loved. I'll also speak to Professor Katrin Hull. She is the new independent advisor to the government on rape. Now, you might remember her predecessor, Emily Hunt,

who was a guest on this programme. Ms Hunt quit the role last year, saying there was a lack of will to change the criminal justice system. So we'll discuss. And we have Ali Novak. She wrote a book, My Life with the Walter Boys, when she was just 15. She's now 32. That book has been made into a teen drama Netflix series.

We'll hear how and why it became a surprise sleeper hit for the platform with Ali and also the executive producer who is Melanie Halsall. They'll be with me this hour on Woman's Hour. But let us return, or turn, should I say, to retail. We begin with that because

despite the falling numbers of retail workers, women still make up the majority and there were figures released today by the British Retail Consortium that show that violence and abuse against shop workers has risen to 1300 incidents a day last year. That's up by 50% in the year to September 2023. I'm joined now by Michelle Whitehead, a workplace rep for Asta, which is the shop workers union and has worked at a convenience store in Wolverhampton for 20 years.

You're very welcome, Michelle. Thank you for joining us. Morning. Thanks for having me. Now, are you surprised by this report? I'm mentioning the figures there, 1,300 incidents a day, up 50%. No, I'm not actually. In fact, I probably would have said it was more. What has your experience been? Our experience at work is it's a daily occurrence and it's more than once. They're coming in, they're abusing us, they're riding our shelves, pushing us out the way, leaving, laughing at us.

What else? There's loads of things I just sometimes I just get a bit too upset to talk about it because it's a daily occurrence to be honest with you. You say raiding our shelves so you're talking about shoplifting? Yeah oh yeah yeah we um you can fill it up and then within five minutes it seems like they know we've filled it up and they come in and they take the lot and so do you think those incidences of violence and abuse are directly correlated with a rise in shoplifting oh gosh yeah because you ask them to put it back and and they push you out the way i mean i myself myself, I've had things thrown at me in the process of saying, could you please put the stuff back? I've had items thrown at me, a basket thrown at me.

It's quite horrific. I was mentioning there that you were working for 20 years. So you've really got that whole trajectory of experience to look back on. Can you've really got that whole trajectory of experience to look back on. Can you pinpoint where it changed? We've always had a bit of abuse,

but not as much. And I think COVID changed a lot of it. I think a lot of people decided that they were frustrated with the way the world was. So we were one of the key workers. We were one of the main shops open.

So I think they came in with their frustration, took it out on us. And I think it's a trend that's carried on because nothing was done back then. They were allowed to bawl and shout and throw things at us and get frustrated. And it's just carried on because nothing has been done about it. And your experience is something that's replicated by other members of the union? Oh, gosh, yeah. Yeah. All of us in retail experience abuse, all of us.

But you talk about it in such a resigned way, maybe, you know, that that's part and parcel, that's part of my job. Unfortunately, I mean, us do do a campaign where abuse is not part of the job and they're doing their best to lobby the government of the day to change the

law. But it is part of your job, unfortunately. You just get so used to being shouted at or something thrown at you that it just becomes the norm unfortunately. I can't imagine that level of stress on a daily basis. Have you thought about leaving? I do look at other jobs, but we have had people leave

and it's the colleagues you leave behind because we do have conversations about colleagues we have left and they all have left because of the abuse, totally. I mean, we have been doing job interviews in my store recently

and one of the applicants was actually in the shop while another member of staff was being abused and she retracted. She said there is no way she could be able to tolerate that, that we have to put up with. She just happened to be in that store. Well, it happens all the time, to be honest with you. So the likelihood of most people that come in our store seeing something, they've all seen it.

You mentioned that nothing was done to tackle it. What do you want done? I want the government to follow Scotland and make it an offence to abuse shop workers. That's a start. I want more police on the ground because there's hardly any police on the ground. I don't blame the police, they're just busy.

But because they don't see it as a crime, they just give us a crime reference number and that is it. They hardly come out and see us. I mean, if I was abused in the street, I would get the police come round, take a statement and sort something out for me. But because I happen to wear a badge with a company name on it

they're not interested and I don't understand the difference and I think that's why I get upset and you know frustrated and come home and I do cry because it's not fair I'm just doing my job

that I used to really really enjoy but it's getting fair. I'm just doing my job that I used to really, really enjoy but it's getting too much now. So it has been that cumulative effect of each day building up? It is, yeah. Yeah, it is, yeah. I mean I don't know how much more some of us can take really. I really don't. And that is interesting that it has been a law put in in Scotland to the effect that it would be

a standalone offence. And that's what you're looking for in England and Wales. We did get a statement from the Home Office. They said the policing minister has been clear that police must take a zero tolerance approach

to shoplifting. Violence against a retail worker is unacceptable. That's why we made it an aggravating offence to ensure tougher sentences for perpetrators. We continue to work closely with retailers. The police have committed to patrol more areas where there's shoplifting.

They say good progress has been made on these commitments, but I have a feeling you won't agree with that. Definitely not. No, oh no. Sometimes you'll see a copper but very rare. I think we saw one last week because they actually caught one of the guys stealing from another shop

and he'd got co-op products and we're the only co-op in the area so he actually brought them back to us. You say a guy there um what are the demographics of somebody shoplifting uh mainly men um mainly men but we do have yeah prolific females as well yeah yeah yeah and it is mainly women that are in retail. We know that across the UK.

But does it make any difference to the level of abuse, whether it's a male or female retail worker? No, because as I say, most of the colleagues we've left at work have been male because they can't tolerate it. I think even though we're pushed, I think they're hit a lot harder than us, you know what I mean, for them to get out of the way. So for a man, it must be even more that because men are supposed to, you know what I mean, and it's just not fair.

It's not fair. Do you think you'll stay in the business? I honestly don't know, to be honest with you. Something's got to change. And that's why I bang the drums about our campaign, Freedom from Fear, for us to, because I want it to change. I love my job. And it would be a shame that these individuals have caused me

to have a career change that I'm not looking for, to be honest with you. Thank you so much for speaking to us. That is Michelle Whitehead, who's a workplace rep for ASTHA and also has worked at a convenience store in Wolverhampton for 20 years. If you're wondering about a little bit

of the squeaking in the background, that is because Michelle has budgies, as I know that we're also making their debut on Woman's Hour. Well, I want to turn to my next guest. That is Dr. Natalie Yates-Bolton. She is a senior lecturer in nursing who has survived five bouts of cancer.

She's now 57. She was diagnosed at the age of 22 while still at university. But 35 years later, she's had, get these numbers, 11 operations, 30 sessions of chemotherapy, 55 rounds of radiotherapy, and they were for Hodgkin's lymphoma and also for breast cancer a number of times. Natalie wants to raise awareness of living with cancer diagnosis and joins me now. Great to have you with us, Natalie. So you've been clear of cancer for the past six years how does that feel? Kind of

kind of I've been on the most one of the most recent types of drugs one of the newest types of drugs targeted therapy for the last six years so my last cancer diagnosis the fifth diagnosis was six years ago and immediately I was fortunate enough to be put on these new targeted therapy drugs so the amazing thing is that they're working and I am cancer free I have full body MRI scans every 16 weeks blood tests every three months and there's no cancer and I'm living life to the full. Living life to the full indeed I was telling some of the people that you have a ski suit, which I'll get to in a moment,

that's symbolic of your endurance. But I want to go back to you being 22 at university, studying nursing and getting that first diagnosis. What do you remember of that time? I remember being happy before the diagnosis. I was a student nurse on placement at the hospital that I went to get my feedback from the biopsy and I was sure they would say everything's fine, go on with your life. So much so that I had a suitcase with me because I was moving to a

different hospital for my next placement. And that wasn't what they said. They said, you have Hodgkin's lymphoma. And my first thought was, I've heard about that in my lectures. That doesn't sound good. So quickly, I thought about what I'd been taught. And the consultant was amazing and really asked me what I wanted. Which hospital did I want to be treated in? Did I want to stay at that hospital in Guildford, 250 miles from home? Did I want to go to the Christie at Manchester? Did I want to go to the Royal Marsden? And I quickly did the calculations and said, I'll stay here at the Royal Surrey. I'll have my treatment at St Luke's because I knew that way I would be able to continue with my nursing degree and graduate

with my friends so I was really grateful that that first consultant showed me how personalized care planned with the patient empowers the patient and I was able to live life to the full for the 30 radiotherapy doses I could still go on to placement and I did graduate with my friends so I thought okay life thanks for that um I'm bolder braver and more courageous and I thought that would be my only experience with cancer but it wasn't it wasn't so carried on with my life living life I worked in London worked in Australia Australia, came back to Manchester, met my husband. I started my family and still nursing. And then 14 years later, the lymphoma had come back and it was quite established. And so the treatment was quite intense.

Because I think with that second diagnosis, I'm sure there's lots of our listeners that will identify with you. How do you retain that optimism that you so obviously have with that second diagnosis and indeed a third, fourth, fifth? I think each time I've decided within five, ten minutes of my diagnosis, what's my priority? So the first time it was to finish my nursing degree with my friends. The second time it was to be a mum to my daughters, to be there for my children. That was my absolute goal. So I stepped back from work for a year and focused on being a mum and then having enough energy to have my treatment, my surgery, but also to really prioritise that any spare energy was for being a mum. About being a mum, because you had two little daughters then, two grown daughters now, Lucy and India.

But what about the impact on the family? Because it's not just one person that goes through the cancer diagnosis. Yeah, so my husband will be listening because he loves Woman's Hour. Great. He knows what I'm going to say about him and he'll probably wish that I'm not going to say it. Say it. No point, you know, giving a different account.

So my husband doesn't cope well with me being ill. And so when I'm really sick, he'll stay at work as long as possible so I know when I'm getting better because he'll start coming home earlier so you know I think you know we need to be honest that it does affect family members in different ways and my daughters who were 9 and 13 then were able to step up into that caring role and a little bit of role reversal but I was really mindful that I wanted them still to have up into that caring role and a little bit of role reversal but I was really mindful that I wanted them still to have their childhood that was my priority that they were kids and it was

about them having a childhood not about me being a sick person. But you know that aspect you talk about about your husband pulling away I think that will resonate with many people as well because you can never predict who's going to be great in a cancer crisis right and there might be many women that would be furious and I don't know whether you were or not with your husband but in in that particular instance and how do you deal with the person that you need to be strong, not being able to be there in the way that you might want them to be? I think in life you have to let people be how they need to be. So that was absolutely fine. That was his approach because my mum was around, my sister.

I've got amazing friends. And every time I'm ill with a diagnosis, my friends just pull so closely and so tightly around that I'm absolutely 100% supported. Shall we talk about your skiing and your ski suit, this symbol that you have of your endurance? Yeah, so the second diagnosis, which was the second lymphoma i finished that chemotherapy in the february it was a dark night in manchester when i'd um gone for my last sign off so i was driving home so i went past snow and rock which i'd never been in which is a store that does a lot of ski gear yeah yeah so i had been thinking do i need a bucket list i'd never been in. Which is a store that does a lot of ski gear, yeah. So I had been thinking, do I need a bucket list? I'd never had one.

And I thought, do I need to have one? If this cancer comes back a third time, will there be anything that I wish I'd done? And I thought, well, I've actually never been skiing. So as I was driving home, I didn't mean to pull into the Snow and Rock car park. And I didn't mean to go in the store. And I didn't mean to buy a ski outfit. hey ho that's what I did and carried on my journey with this um ski suit

which was blue with yellow flashes on it and a furry like trim on the hood and then arranged a ski trip a year later a year later because I wasn't strong enough I'd literally just finished chemotherapy so I think you have to pace yourself in life and pace yourself when you're having cancer treatment. So I thought in a year's time, I'll be strong enough. And me, my mum and the kids went skiing. We've been going skiing ever since. And I wore that outfit, that ski suit for 15 years. After about 10 years, Lucy in India said, really, you need to stop wearing that suit. Just one more year. I'll just wear it one more year. Then the next year would come around and they'd say, you really need to stop wearing it.

And I'd say, just one more year. Anyway, after 15 years, I've retired it, but it's folded away in my wardrobe. And I came across it at the weekend. I was going to run a long distance race, so I needed to get into a certain part of the wardrobe. And there was my beloved blue ski suit, a little tattered and torn. Well, I threw it out to our listeners, Natalie, as well.

And here's a couple of messages that have come in. I, too, am undergoing treatment for a diagnosis of stage 4B ovarian cancer. I recently bought a second hand e-bike and it has changed my life. Physically, I feel better, but more important, mentally, it has given me back my freedom. That's Glenys from Gorefield all the best to you Glenys also Caroline in Totnes

in Devon says my safety place is nature growing up in Cumbria with an abusive father I'd get home after school jump on my bike and head out to the Eden Valley

around me and it held me freeing me from fear and started a landscape design consultancy which she named after her safe space. Thank you so much for getting in touch.

Some people getting in touch with, you know, an item or clothing or place that they feel is symbolic of their endurance. You just briefly alluded to it there, but it's not just skiing. You have done three ultramarathons, three triathlons, six marathons. You are an extraordinary woman.

I need to be honest and say I've run all those very slowly. So just in case people think... But you did them. I did them, but I did them very slowly. I do think, you know, I need to not make out that I'm like some super athlete. So I love running. I love running with my friends. I can't actually run on my own so

after about three miles on my own I'm just so bored and I've come up with 100 reasons to turn back but if you put me with one of my running buddies I know I can run 35 miles I'll we'll stop we'll admire the view we'll eat some cream eggs to get some energy we'll we'll have a lovely time so I can run 35 miles very slowly as long as it's somewhere beautiful as well. I need, those are my requirements. Somewhere beautiful, some friends and then some high calorie food. That's a good recipe for a good run.

We have, of course, been hearing a lot about the King recently being diagnosed with cancer and it's put under the spotlight of the latest report from Cancer Research UK saying that thousands, this is for England, saying thousands of cancer patients across England face unacceptable weights to be diagnosed and treated. You've worked in the NHS as well as being treated by it. When you see and hear those stories, what goes through your mind? I think I just really have such compassion for the person who has that weight and for their family members, because the diagnosis will probably, the actual diagnosis or the potential diagnosis, it is a scary time it's like waiting to go to be sentenced um so i just feel for people who do have to um go through that experience and the the added pressure of the wait it's that

nobody wants a diagnosis of cancer and to have to wait for it that just is such additional pressure i want to thank you for spending some time with us, Dr. Natalie Yates Bolton. I did see she's also a milliner, but if she doesn't have enough going on in her life, thank you so much for making some hats just on the side. Why not? Very good to hear from you. And I know your story will be uplifting for many people that are listening this morning, some of them getting in touch with what is their symbol of endurance 84844 here's linda she says she's listening to you natalie she says my husband has had several health issues over the past couple of years and whenever he has an appointment i always make sure i wear a ring that belonged to my mother-in-law

and my own mother's engagement ring both on the same finger and i get comfort in the feeling that both of these strong women are there supporting us. Isn't that beautiful? Thank you so much for your messages. A lot that are coming in on shoplifting as well. Just speaking to our first guest. Here's Leslie. I was a manager at a shop for 12 years. The amount of staff cut on the shop floor makes shoplifting easy. We were only two on most shifts and one of those was on the till. The company knew the volume of abuse, shrinkage, stock loss, was also part of the bonus package

impossible to reach given the lack of staff and support. So managers were taking the financial loss, not the retailer. I'll bring some more of those, 84844, if you'd like to get in touch. Okay, I want to turn to, really turn the clock back.

40 years ago, next month, most of the coal miners in the UK went on strike over pit closures and proposed redundancies. That strike lasted a year and it was one of the most divisive conflicts of a generation. On Sunday, BBC Two is broadcasting

the miners' strike, a frontline story, which features personal testimony from 15 men and women that were on the frontline of that strike, including Lisa McKenzie, who joins me in studio. Also joining me from County Durham is Heather Woods, who, like Lisa, was very active in the strike. First, I want to bring you a little bit of a BBC News report. This is from May 1984 about the role of women in the strike.

If there was an award for the most kissed man in Barnsley today, there's no doubt about the winner. The women gave Arthur Scargill the pop star treatment, queuing up for him to sign their t-shirts. Mrs Scargill was there to see things didn't get out of hand, however. She's led the campaign to stop local traders withdrawing credit from strikers families. Some wives with young families are managing on £25 a week. They say the lost housekeeping and cancelled holidays only make them more determined. Mining's a male monopoly and by tradition women have no new accepted their place. But that's it Mr. Scargill, is over. Our women are not just helping with the men in the kitchens they're on our picket lines

fighting for us. Well the voices you heard there, BBC correspondent Michael Cole and Arthur Scogill, of course the President of the National Union of Mine Workers. Lisa, let us start with you. Good morning. You were 16 when this strike started

and it was your birthday. What do you remember? Yeah, it was 9th of March, 1984. I was in bed and I could hear a load of voices downstairs, which was very unusual because my dad was on days, which meant he leaves at four o'clock in the morning and comes back at two in the afternoon. So I thought, what's going on? Is it something to do with my birthday? I love the way kids think, right? It must be to do with me.

Well, you say kid, but I literally changed from that day, from a kid to an adult. You know, that was one of the things about the strike. That year I went to work and my wages were important to the family. So I wasn't a kid really for very long. So, yeah, I went downstairs and my wages were important to the family. So I wasn't a kid really for very long. So yeah, I went downstairs and my mum said, we're on strike and that's it. Immediately she got on, you know, sprung into action.

She was cancelling the butcher, cancelling the milk. She knew immediately money is going to be tight. This is going to change everything. She knew it was going to be a long time as well. My mum was a trade unionist. She shop steward for a trade union, which was the knitwear, footwear and apparel union. She'd been organising women and trade unions for many, many years

and she immediately knew what was going to happen. So literally the day my dad came home and wouldn't cross the picket line, we started setting up Ashfield Women Against Pitch closures in our house with other women. And I didn't go back to school again. That was it. That was like a full-time job.

And you were going out. Well, I went to school the next day and I'd got Colnock doll stickers on me and the school was not happy and sent me home. There was also a lot of police in the area that were starting to harass us

for many different reasons. Harassing me because I'd got the Colnock doll stickers on, but also harassing some of my school friends trying to get them in the back of the van. And so my mum just went, you know what, you're not going back. So I didn't go back. So that begins

to, though, illustrate this division that there was from day one between some in authority and others that were going out on strike. I want to bring in Heather. Now you were older than Lisa at the time. You were 32. You had young children.

What do you remember from those early days? I think I had already learned a lot from the previous political activism that I was involved in. But it was in 83 when we first realised as a community what was going to happen, the way Thatcher was creating a society of selfish individuals. But at the beginning, it was excitement because I saw this as an opportunity to get women together, get women involved, get women to have opinions, have ideas, have views. And that's the way I felt at the beginning. I knew it was going to last a year.

Somebody asked me, how long will it be? How did you know that? Because I knew Margaret Thatcher was a stubborn woman, a stubborn woman. And she was determined to get back at us because of what the miners did to Heath in 74, because we'd beaten him. Margaret Thatcher was out to get the NUM and mining communities. And I knew she wouldn't give in easily. So I said, prepare. That's my forte. Organise organise, prepare and prepare for the long run. And that was a year to me. Well, let's talk about that with both of you.

Lisa, what do you remember of the organising, preparing? What were the women doing around you? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that was happening with our women is nobody was short of opinions. No one was short of political nows you know people when you live in mining communities the politics are there every day all the time in your house being talked about constantly so it wasn't on you know women has always sort of been political in their communities whether it's about organizing whatever. So they just came together and started organising the way they did. But interestingly enough, there was other women in our area

that had been organising from the 1926 general election. We had a woman called Ida Ackett. You know, on day two, she's round our house and she's saying, right, this is what we did in 1926. So therefore, you know, we were writing letters, you know, longhand, having to ask anybody for help and for support in order to get the soup kitchen set up. And people came through?

Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, my mum, she didn't have a good education at school, but we were writing longhand and then I was sort of going through it. We sent letters to Malupa Baby Food. They sent us a load of baby food. And then within a few months, we'd got the soup kitchen set up. Which was a huge part. Yeah.

Trying to feed people. Yeah. Then it was also a place where we came together, a place where you could sort of strategise and talk. And unlike other areas, Nottinghamshire, because most of the men were working, we didn't have any access to the welfares or the spaces of the union because we were the minority. So we had to find other places.

And you see that division in the documentary between maybe Yorkshire, for example, and Nottinghamshire. But back to you, Heather, what was the most important thing you think that women were doing at that time where you were? At first, it was the important thing

to the women that I was involved with was to provide food sustenance, which has usually been the woman's accepted place in our societies. But I have to say as well, women in our communities have always been the backbone, because whenever there's been a problem, it's the women that have come out and sorted it um but it's never been recognized really by the rest of society in our communities it's accepted but out of sight there's a um there's a myth that in mining communities they have these big strong men ruling these little women in criminal and dresses and that's just not the way it is can i just please do i

see lisa's nodding her head there. I completely agree with that. I mean, there's been a narrative since the strike and I saw it at the time when we started to get a lot of people coming into our communities. First time I'd ever met middle-class people when they came into our communities. And I remember the narrative was already starting then

that women in mining communities had been oppressed. You know, they just carried children and cooked. And then all of a sudden this narrative about, oh, they've come out of the kitchen. Because there was this line that I've heard and seen that women were liberated by a minor strike. Yes, that was a narrative. But anybody who's lived in a mining community or been in a mining family knows that's not women were not oppressed in those communities. We just lived in communities and people had different roles. Women's roles was basically to keep it going. Back to you, Heather. I can see you're nodding. Yes, I totally agree. But I do also think there were a lot of women who didn't understand what their capabilities were. That was the problem. They had opinions, they had views that stressed within the home, but they'd never gone out there and been political. And at first,

it didn't happen around here. I don't know about any other area, but in our area, it didn't happen around here. I don't know about any other area, but in our area, it didn't happen at first. Food on the table was the first thing. After that, it was, all right, we want to go on the picket lines. We want to go to rallies. We want to speak. And how interviewed by television.

And it happened. But how was that received by the men in these pictures? And of course, it won't be this, I can't make one massive generalisation, but from what you saw, Lisa, for example. My dad wasn't happy about women going on the picket line at all. Why?

My dad worked at Silver Hill Pit and that's where Anne Scargill was arrested and my dad had seen Anne Scargill get arrested. For a start, he didn't really think that they should have been there. He thought that they were sort of trying to, you know, bring the press and they were trying to cause trouble. And remember, this is in Nottinghamshire. Our lives were very different there.

You know, we didn't have the whole community behind us. So when he saw Anne Scargill arrested, you know, and she was treated quite roughly, he didn't want women on the picket line, which was interesting because I used to go, but I'd go with all the young lads who, you know, were a couple of years older than me, and he never really thought about that.

He never said anything about that. It was more about his wife. Yeah, and other women. And there was a lot of men that was quite against it, really. Did they come around? Well, I don't think they came around. It's just that the women, I mean, my mum just went, we're going and that's it. And there was massive arguments.

But, you know, I was just, I was going all the time anyway. I want to come to also what you think the repercussions of that time were. The documentary is so thought provoking and you begin to see also, perhaps through women's eyes as well, how it affected not just them, but the men that they loved. Heather? In our communities, it changed. It was devastating at the end of the strike because we knew what was going to happen. We knew that our pitch would close,

even though at that time our pitch was in the black. We were profit-making colliery, but they made it so that it was unprofitable. We were in the red. So we knew, so we were scared. We were in the red. So we knew. So we were scared. We were all scared together. Men, women, children, everybody knew that the pit had made... You see, before we had the mine in our village, there wasn't a village.

The mine brought the houses, brought the jobs, brought the families. So we knew what was going to happen. Devastation. And it really devastated us. I heard you say, Lisaisa that the pit was life um yes well the coal the coal was the coal lived with us we had coal in our houses it lived with us it was part of your family you know it was the very thing that kept us going you know my granddad had said to me when i was when i was two and three you know we are the most important

people in the country we We keep the lights on. And I grew up really believing that being working class, coming from a mining community, I was so lucky. I used to think, God, aren't I lucky? Until the strike and then afterwards. And we were no longer the people that kept the lights on. We were old-fashioned, no good, stuck in the past, the enemy within. And do you think, how long do you think that feeling or that,

yeah, I suppose really the repercussions of that narrative lasted? What is it, the 14th of February today? Well, it's still today. We're still here. This is it. This is what has happened to these communities. It's never changed. We still looked backwards, no good, holding the country back. You could see

it with the Brexit debates, actually. The way that they spoke, we were being spoken about. Lisa McKenzie features in Miners Strike, a frontline story. It's going to air Sunday night at 9pm on BBC2 and iPlayer. And I also want to thank my guest from County Durham, Heather Woods.

Thank you so much for speaking to us on Woman's Hour. If you want to get in touch you can text Woman's Hour 84844. Many of you are getting in touch. I'll read some of your messages in just a moment. But I want to turn next to

Professor Catherine Hull. The government has just announced that it has appointed Professor Catherine Hull as the new independent advisor to the government on rape. The previous advisor, Emily Hunt, stood down from her role at the end of last year after her own experience in the justice system as an abuse victim left her feeling unsafe. So marking her departure, Ms Hunt said at the outset of the rape review in 2019 that there was real momentum to change not just policy, but culture to put victims' needs at the heart of investigations and fight against rape myths.

But in the last 18 months, she said, there was a lack of will to push on with more change. And she told Woman's Hour it stopped being a priority. Well, Professor Hull joins me now as the Rape Review Progress Report is published. Welcome, Professor. I'm mentioning a little bit of your predecessor there as well,

which we can get to, but why did you want to take on this role? Good morning. Yeah, why would you take on a role? Your predecessor said has become ineffective. I think it's precisely the reason I have taken it on. It's one, the justice system undoubtedly needs more reform. And secondly, I believe that it can be done.

And I believe it can be done because of the work we've done for the last two years within Operation Soteria, which is a groundbreaking police academic collaboration to try and transform the way police investigate rape, engage with victims, and how police services set themselves up to enable that. So I think we've seen progress and I've seen enough of what's possible to want to give it a good go. Yeah, and you say that with a smile, but did it not give you pause? I mean with Emily she said that she basically and it was due to a case that she had a personal case herself but that she felt the justice system couldn't ensure her safety and this is for a woman who had been through it and understood it and worked within it. Yeah and and I know Emily, I've spoken to her, her experience is horrific.

And I think being in that role of being an advisor to the government while at the same time experiencing your own case being so badly managed is terrible. Now, I come back to the point is, I think the worst possible thing I could be doing is to say, yes, that's a really big problem. Let's turn my back to it. I think if there is a problem this big and you believe that you can make a difference, absolutely should you get involved. It would be the worst thing we could do is turn our backs onto the justice system and not support the government in trying to change it. What is your number one priority then? I think at the moment it has to be the issue of timeliness and backlogs. I think many of your

listeners will have seen that in the news. So we're now in a place where the Crown Court has a backlog of about 70,000 cases, of which 10,000 are sexual offences. Victims wait for an intolerably long time for their case to go to court. And now we are also in a place that even once cases have gone to court, we're nearly out of prison spaces. So very soon there'll be nowhere to send anyone. So how are you going to tackle that? I mean, that is a very literally bricks and mortar problem, even if you get to the result that that's some that are prosecuting may want. I think the reality is that right now, nobody exactly knows how to do that. And when we're in a place as a society where we don't

know the answer to the problem, the best thing we can do is to do research and not ivory tower research, research that involves victims, that involves the players within the justice system to explore a new way forward. It's very clear that carrying on as usual or tinkering with the system isn't going to resolve this very big problem. It is 2019 when it began. We're already in 2024. Some might say that research will take time. They're already talking about people waiting five years for their rape case to get to court. I mean, does that not give you pause that, in fact, it's delaying getting justice for some of these people that are caught up in the system. That's why it can't be research as people think about it,

where we go away, think about it very hard, and then write a book that is published in two or three years' time. I think it has to be work done at speed. It's something we've already done in Operation Soteria. There already is a great deal of knowledge, even through my own research. Victims are telling us what they need from the justice system. We are not starting from zero. There is a lot of knowledge out there already. But for sure, the worst we could do is make policy or pass laws based on no data and no

clear idea how to do it or do nothing. So in this situation, the best thing you can do is work with what you have and research to do and use evidence and data to try and move things forward. There is a survey from the Criminal Bar Association that says 64% of prosecutors and 66% of defence barristers would not reapply to work on rape and serious sexual offences due to the low legal aid fees they're paid and also the impact on their wellbeing. And I've heard this before from people who have been on this programme that people don't want to work on these cases.

Is there any specific solution or process that's been looked at to deal with that issue? So we have the issue with the barristers. We also have it with police officers is working on rape cases. They're deeply traumatic. There is great moral injury in seeing the trauma inflicted on victims through the offence, but also through the justice process and feeling relatively helpless in not getting more cases to court, not providing a better service. So while pay might be one of the issues, I think we need to be much more aware of secondary and vicarious trauma and how we support people who work with victims. Because what we know is what happens when people are burnt out and morale is low, empathy lowers, and rape myth and stereotypes are more likely to creep in.

There's quite a bit of research around it. So it requires more than money. It requires real awareness and tackling the issue of trauma for those who work with it, but also working to give people the specialist knowledge to investigate those cases, to prosecute those cases and to support victims in a trauma-informed way. So these are some of the issues that still need to be dealt with. What do you feel is a step forward with what is happening at the moment? I think a step forward is the fact that the justice system is very prepared to take a real honest look at the issue. A step forward is what we've seen between the police and the Crown

Prosecution Service working much closer together, working also better with the sector to support victims. We need to see that across the justice system. As we go deeper into the justice system, there is a lot less transparency, there is a lot less openness to research, to looking at the evidence. So a further step forward would be to open up the whole of the justice process for real scrutiny and development of new solutions. Are there any examples on the ground that you could talk about? I'm coming back to Soteria. I think this is... Explain that for people who don't understand what it is. Yeah. So Soteria, it's a programme where we as academics work closely with police to look at from all angles

and with the CPS at why rape cases don't progress, why so many drop out, why victims withdraw and have terrible experiences, and then work together based on the findings to develop solutions that work for officers in practice. So that looks like, for example, materials to support officers to investigate the suspect rather than over-focus on the credibility of the victim, producing materials to support officers to ensure victim rights are at the heart. They tell victims about the rights they have.

They give victims a sense of voice and control in that process. So those are some of the things that work. It works to involve the sector to draw on independent sexual violence advocates to support victims alongside. So those are some of the things we know work. There are some of the things that work, an awful lot more to be worked on. Thank you so much for joining us, Professor Catherine Hall. We'll speak to you again, no doubt,

as you get stuck into some of the work that is to be done. You're listening to Woman's Hour. Thank you for your messages coming in. This is one who was talking about symbols of endurance is my yoga mat. We were talking about getting through something. I've been struggling with long COVID for the last year. Unable to work. I can't swim, run, dance

or even walk beyond a short distance. But I spend time every morning on my yoga mat, even if it's just to breathe or roll my knees. Thank you for getting in touch. I don't want to turn to my life with the Walter boys. This is a teen drama series on Netflix.

It's hit 12 million views in its first week alone. So a sleeper hit, as they call it. It follows the story of Jackie, a 15-year-old girl whose parents and sister die in an accident. So she moves from New York to Colorado

and she becomes part of a family of nine boys and one other little girl. There's lots of twists and turns. It's very warm, I think. As some people say, it gives them kind of fuzzy feeling when they're watching it. It was adapted by series creator

and executive producer Melanie Holtzall from a book that was written 10 years ago by the author Ali Novak. Ali Novak was just 15 years old when she wrote that book. Welcome to you both. Ali, take me back to that time you were 15. You were writing. Did you ever think it might be on a platform that we hadn't even thought about at that stage 17 years ago? Good morning. Thanks for having me. I, gosh, when I was 15 15 that was so long ago I always knew that I wanted to be a writer um and I think that stemmed from my love of reading when I was a kid I would save my

allowance and I would go to the bookstore when my friends would go to the movies in the mall. And that love of reading just turned into writing. And when I wrote My Life of the Walter Boys, I knew I wanted to be an author, but I didn't expect this story to be the first book that I've published. I purely wrote it for fun. Wrote it for fun. Let's turn to Melanie. So what was it, Melanie, about the Walter boys that made you think this could be a great series?

Hi, thanks for having me. Well, the book is such a rich story and it's such a great big family. So when I first read it, I could see that it was right for television because we could follow the stories of all the kids in the family. So when I first read it, I could see that it was right for television because we could follow the stories of all the kids in the family. We had a fantastic love triangle in the middle of it, which, you know, as we all love, you know, who doesn't love a love triangle? And Ali had created this amazing world and community around that. So I could see that we could generate so

many different stories for all those different characters. And it's such a warm and funny book that it was just a pleasure to read. And so I could see straight away how it would work. How does it feel, Ali, seeing it come to life, your thoughts that you had 17 years ago? I mean, it's completely surreal. Like I said, I only wrote this book for fun. I always knew I wanted to be an author, but I didn't think that I thought I would have a very standard, like traditional career path as an author. I figured I would go to college, I would get a quote unquote real job. And then I would, you know, write after my work day and struggle to find an agent for years. I didn't, I assumed I wouldn't have a book deal until I was my, my current age, like in my thirties. Um, so when I wrote it, I just, you know, I put it online just cause I didn't think anyone else would read it and it just blew up. Um, and I thought that was my moment, uh, that the story getting really popular online.

I never expected a TV show out of it. So surreal is the only way to describe looking back on something you created as a kid and now seeing millions of people enjoy it. Why do you think, Melanie, that it is such a hit? Because it's very gentle, right? It is very gentle, yes. And I think that's probably why. I think, I mean, we take the stories of these teenagers very seriously in the show.

You know, it's quite a sincere show. But the stakes for the audience aren't that massively high. And I think that's what makes it really quite a nice watch. And I've anecdotally heard of entire generations of families, you know, grandfathers sitting there and becoming Team Alex or Team Cole over Christmas, which is a great time to launch it. I think the launch date was also a big factor. But there's never any moment where, you know, no one's getting tortured, no one's getting murdered. It's just a lovely story about very beautiful young people in a very beautiful setting. And I think, you know,

it has got its integrity. It has got a great story behind it. But it's also a very, as you say, very easy, comforting watch and has a real sense of optimism and a hope in it as well, which I think people responded to really well. It is somewhat different from the book in the sense that there is more diversity and inclusion. Yes, absolutely. And that's something Ali and I spoke about quite early on. That was something that I definitely wanted to do. And Ali is 100% in agreement with that. It's really important.

Ali wrote it 15 years ago, 17 years ago. And it was really important to us on screen, both as professionals and in terms of reflecting the society we live in, that it was a diverse world. So yeah, that was really super important to us. So we kind of did that from the ground up. And as a creator and as a producer, for me, diversity is really important on and off screen. So we also had very diverse directors. We had 50% directors were female and 50% women of colour. So that was really important to us as well. So it was both on and off screen.

What is it like being a woman working in the TV industry? Oh, it's great. Always great. I mean, it's a challenge. Of course, it's a challenge. I think it's a challenge for everybody, especially when you're creating something and show running it. And I was in Canada for six months to make it.

I think women have to work harder to get you know it's that typical thing we have to work twice as hard to get half the opportunities I think that's actually in the show um and and we do get passed over I think men are given more chances than women um they get to mess up sometimes that women aren't um sorry no I was just thinking because I was thinking particularly with female female directors compared to male directors. We see that in film, that disparity that is there and the same I would imagine in television. Yes. Yes. I think it's getting better in television. I think it's getting much better in television. But I still think women struggle to get given chances in the way that men do. Men are often seen as a safe pair of hands and you're taking a chance on a woman, which conversely means that they don't get the experience they need to become a safe pair of

hands. So we were very mindful of that. And that was something we really wanted to address in the direction of the show. Let me turn back to you, Ali. It's actually been commissioned for a second series, so that will have Melanie keeping busy. But you're also in the direction of the show. Let me turn back to you, Ali. It's actually been commissioned for a second series, so that will have Melanie keeping busy. But you're also writing a second book, is my understanding. How are you going to get back

into the mindset of being a 15, 16, 17 year old girl? It's really difficult. I think the biggest thing that I'm focusing on instead of, you know, wondering, can I get into the mindset that I was when I was 15 is focusing more on what do I think my readers want to experience when they're reading this story? How can I bring them the same joy that I did when I was a teenager? And that's, you know, the best thing that I can do to tell the story, because I'm never

going to be able to tell the story the same way that I did when I was 15. Also, sadly, I saw you also lost your father quite young, Ali. And I'm wondering, was it cathartic to think about that book or to write that book or indeed see this series actually come to life? that helped me when my father was sick was, I think it inspired why Jackie lost her parents. And I think I went into the experience thinking that it would help me kind of deal with that grief. But I think I was a little too close to it. So that's why the story itself doesn't fully focus on Jackie's grief. It was too hard for me. So I actually have a different book series where the main character's sister has cancer. And I kind of had to go back to the subject because it was too difficult for me when I was that young. I had to go back to the subject

and re-explore it with a different series. I understand, yeah. Well, it's all very moving. You kind of see that teen grief as well, I think with Jackie in the series with My Life with the Walters in kind of the way that she holds it in. Ali Novak, Melanie Halsall, thank you both so much for joining

us and telling us a little bit about your lives with the Walter boys. I want to thank all of you for getting in touch. My survival toolkit, a box of pencils in a psychiatric hospital, allowing me to hold body and mind together as an artist. It was my strategy for enduring therapy by simply drawing my way out of the chaos. Thank you very much for all your messages that have come in, whether it's on shoplifting and minor strike or indeed what your symbol of endurance has been.

I'll be back with you again, same time tomorrow, same place. I'll talk to you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I think the power of the show was crazy back then. The X Factor promised to turn ordinary people into pop stars. We stood there behind the doors when 16 million people are about to watch you go on stage and Simon just stood next to you like, good luck girls, good luck.

I'm Chi Chi Zundu. For years I was a BBC showbiz journalist who covered every twist and turn. I want to go behind the scenes to find out from staff and contestants what it was like. You don't just want average people. You wanted, you know, it was so bad. They were comical. I feel like I was humiliated just for the entertainment. Did the show ever come back and they said to me, Sam, will you come on and do it again? I'd be like, what time do you want me? Over six episodes, I'm looking back at the good and the bad of one of Britain's biggest TV shows. For BBC Radio 4, this is Offstage, Inside the X Factor.

Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.