Woman's Hour - Susannah Constantine, How Work Fits into your Life

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

Susannah Constantine describes herself as an author, journalist, PA to three teenagers and middle-aged lapsed fashionista turned podcaster to the wardrobes of the superstars! She has recently written about her alcoholism. Sober now for seven years, she wrote the article because she felt a lot of women are struggling. This is borne out by figures from Alcohol Change UK, who have seen a huge increase in the number of women coming their website since the first lockdown started, with 173,580 female visitors, an increase of more than 100% on the previous year. Susannah joins Emma to describe the feelings of shame surrounding drinking, especially for women, and how it leads to a sense of isolation and loneliness. And she talks about the positives of her life post drinking Writer Sarah Jaffe joins Emma to talk about the ideas in her new book, Work Won't Love You Back. She argues we've been sold an idea that certain work is not really work and should be done for the sake of passion rather than pay. She looks particularly at how gender and the labour of love myth interact, how the devaluing of work in the home has lead to a devaluing of certain work outside (eg childcare, domestic work, nursing, teachers etc) . She examines the notion that paid work is a liberation for women particularly when the amount of work women do in the home has not been significantly reduced. She asks how the unpaid intern came about, the overworked teacher, the boss who describes the work place as 'like a family'', how the labour of love myth permeates almost every area of our lives and at what cost.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. January is done, into February we go, still living though very different lives to the ones we are used to. And today I'm joined by the TV presenter and author Susanna Constantine. She's going to explain why she publicly outed herself as an alcoholic at the end of last year. One of the reasons is she noticed the trend, the trend of women in lockdown, more and more of them, turning to the bottle.

She may be most famous for giving fashion makeovers to women as one half of Trini and Susanna, but she avoided turning the mirror onto herself for a long time. Has your relationship with alcohol changed? Tell us. Get in touch on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Perhaps you notice yourself, perhaps not at a problem level, but maybe you are drinking more than you have been in the past.

Maybe you do know you've got a problem and you don't quite know how to deal with it. There's a lot of shame associated with this, which is, I know, something Susanna also wants to talk about and also the benefits of confronting this. So we can talk about all sides with it. There's a lot of shame associated with this, which is I know something Susanna also wants to talk about, and also the benefits of confronting this. So we can talk about all sides of it. The microphone's yours. Do get in touch on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. Also today, the world of work. It seems that almost 20,000 women's jobs could disappear following the purchase of Topshop, Topman and the Miss Selfridge brands and their stock by the online fashion retailer ASOS. We're going to take a look

at that, what it means, but also whether work is working with the author Sarah Jaffu. So that's to come. Stay with us for that. But first, let's tell you and tell all of us about something you may have missed over the weekend. Because on Saturday, the Prime Minister published an open letter to parents saying he was in awe of them. Mr Johnson told parents, you're doing great for your own kids, you're doing great for the whole country too. He added that parents have been dealt the trickiest of hands,

yet played it magnificently, adding he was in awe of the way that parents, carers and guardians of children have risen to the unique challenges with which you have faced. The Prime Minister himself became a new parent again last April, announcing the birth of a son, Wilfred, during the first wave of Covid-19 infections. His letter came off the back of the government announcing schools will remain closed in England until at least the 8th of March. And it also came a day after the government withdrew a social media advert

urging people to stay home and save lives after it was criticised for stereotyping women and seeming sexist. The image showed women homeschooling children and doing the domestic chores, while the only man featured was depicted relaxing on a sofa. The government said the advert did not reflect its view on women. We asked the government to come and talk to us today, but nobody came back to us. Laura Koonsberg, the BBC's political editor, joins us now. Laura, this note from the Prime

Minister went out on Saturday morning. Why now? Morning, Emma. Morning, everyone. Well, I think it's quite simple, this timing, actually. It was last week ministers confirmed that school gates in England are going to be shut to most pupils until at least March the 8th. That's a few weeks later than the February half term where there had been talk of kids going back after that. In Northern Ireland, it's going to be at least March the 5th. And in Wales and Scotland, it might be a little bit sooner. But it's clear that we are still in this situation for some time yet. And I think the Prime Minister and other politicians are really aware, however much people love their children, it is very hard going having them at home all the time and trying to teach them, especially for parents who are trying to work as well. Remember, also lots of families with dodgy broadband or people trying to share a phone to help their kids get online.

And, you know, we talked to one mum in Sussex last week for the news called Alexa. She had four year old twins, a seven-year-old and an eight-year-old. And she said, I don't want to complain, but I'm just so tired because I'm the parent. I'm the teacher. I'm the dinner lady. I've got to clean the toilets as well. And I don't have a teaching assistant to help with the little kids. Well, I'm trying to sort out the older ones. So I think that the government is aware that it is a hard ask to say to parents, you're just going to have to hang on for that little bit longer. And I think that that letter was an attempt, at least, to show that they get it.

Has it landed well? We asked people this morning on social media. We've had many texts as well on this and some people saying, you know, I hadn't even seen it. I wouldn't even know about it. Why put it out on a Saturday? Well, I think, I mean, it's always hard to tell what is going on with the rest of the news agenda, actually. And I think, you know, coverage of anything is always dictated by what else is going on, too, and how sort of tempting or how exciting a news story might be. I mean, this was in a lot of the Saturday papers. It was picked up by most of the news websites.

You're right, though, and it didn't feel like a giant, top-line, big wham-bam headline story. Very few people interacting, sorry, just to say, very few people interacting with it across social media, across parenting forums, any of those things. We've had a look this morning and, you know, a message, for instance, just came in saying, I would have appreciated this, but I hadn't seen it.

Another one from Suzanne says, the letter is patronising, as was a social media ad. I do not need or want a report card from the Prime Minister. Well I think you know the government's well aware that this is a hard ask right and plenty of parents have been very cross about how the government's handled schools being in and out and I remember at the beginning of this year some kids were sent back for a day just before then the schools were closed again. And I think in the whole handling of the pandemic, education is not just an acute area because it affects so many millions of families. But also, it's really where the government has struggled to keep a lid on the situation. You know, I mean, remember, before Christmas, the Education

Secretary Gavin Williamson was even, you know, threatening legal action against one borough in London. There have been huge concerns over their handling of this particular area. But that's not to say that if the government then tries to send out a sympathetic message that it's going to be very warmly received in all quarters, as you guys have been hearing this morning. Joe says parents have, I think it's great that he acknowledges that parents have done a good job. Personally, having been at home with my children while my wife goes to work, I see it as just taking care of my responsibilities. If only the government could have performed as well and taking care of theirs. Caroline says during this difficult period, I have had no time to read the note as I have to do all the household chores. Just at the end of last week, we mentioned that the sexist ad, in inverted commas, it was deemed sexist.

The government distanced itself from it. It was withdrawn. And yet we couldn't seem to understand how you have a government ad that no one seemed to be taking responsibility for signing off. Well, with these things, once they emerge and people have a good look at it, that's always the question, isn't it? You scratch your head and you think, how did that get signed off? I mean, I think clearly it was seen as a mistake once people farther up the chain in government realised it was out there and it was withdrawn pretty quickly. But obviously it was embarrassing. Obviously, I'm sure lots of your listeners this morning will have seen that, you know, in their own WhatsApp groups or their own texts, whatever. It kind of exploded when people actually saw it. I think that it was, you know, corrected as the government

would see it by withdrawing it almost as soon as it was sort of flagged up. But it does play into a wider issue. Or with this letter, is it corrected by this 24 hours later? Because that exploded, but this letter didn't go viral. have to say look we don't know for sure but I would be surprised if they were sort of part and parcel of the same thing I mean I'd be cautious about drawing a direct link between one and the other I mean the advert with the charming picture of the women doing the ironing and the man sitting on the sofa and the women looking after the children those four households mean, that was part of a sort of official government communication, public health campaign that was, I think, due to be posted on their government's on the government's Facebook page, rather than something coming directly from Downing Street in the prime minister's name and would have been at least partly from his pen. So I don't think we can necessarily draw a straight line from one to the other. But I think, you know, this government does know that they have for some time had a bit of

an issue with female voters. There's no question about that. You know, polling consistently shows that there's a gender gap. And also there's a demographic age gap as well between how people tend to see Boris Johnson. So they know that it is an area where they're vulnerable. And certainly something like that advert appearing doesn't help that at all. Laura Koonsberg, the BBC's political editor, thank you for that analysis. And your message is still coming in. Another one here saying, it's too little too late for me. Claiming free school meals as something he's done is a joke.

No apologising for the flip-flopping over school closures as the little woman of the house. I'll carry on with the cleaning. Another one, Rasheen says, if you hadn't posted it, Woman's Hour, I wouldn't have seen it. Who thought this was a good idea? They need some real PR help. And more messages coming in with your response

to that particular letter. It's like clapping a sheepdog on the head, saying good girl, reads another tweet here and others saying they do appreciate the sentiment but perhaps too little too late. Keep those messages coming in and as I say we did invite the government on but didn't hear back from a representative. Now Susanna Constantine describes herself as an author, journalist, PA to three teenagers, building on what we've just been talking about and middle-aged lapsed fashionista turned podcaster to the wardrobes of the superstars. You may simply know her as Susanna, one half of the successful TV makeover duo Trini and Susanna.

But what you won't have known until very recently is that she's an alcoholic and has been in recovery for the last seven years. She outed herself publicly at the end of last year because she wanted to try and speak to the rising numbers of women turning to drink during lockdown more and more. And that trend is borne out by figures from Alcohol Change UK who say they've seen a huge increase in the number of women coming to their websites since the first lockdown started with 173,000 female visitors, an increase of more than 100% on the previous year.

Do get in touch with us if this speaks to you in any way and let us know about your relationship with alcohol. We've got one here saying, I was drinking more and more, just completed dry January. And Claire says initially drinking more and now much less and consciously choosing to do so. Susanna, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, Emma. How are you? Well, I'm OK. And I know this is a very, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi Emma, how are you? Well I'm okay and I know this is a very difficult one to actually talk about. It must have been very difficult to write about but talking about these things is even harder sometimes even though you've been doing that anonymously in a group for years to try and support yourself. First of all, why did you

try to start this conversation? Well I mean it is a topic that I've been asked to address a lot. And it's something that I never wanted to be covered salaciously. I didn't want to trivialise the topic. And, you know, I'm in the public eye. And if Jenny Murray was writing the article, it would be different. But I'm a sitting target. As you said, I've made my living on TV telling women they're wearing the wrong bra. I get it. But and I'm in the crosshairs of trolls and I'm with OK with that most of the time. But this topic is incredibly serious. And although my alcoholism isn't a secret, it has been private. But hearing the recent statistics about alcoholism and other addictions increasing during the pandemic, I felt now is the time when my story

could possibly be of benefit to others. You say that many women drinkers can be high functioning. You wouldn't necessarily know, perhaps you wouldn't even know yourself. Is that how you would describe what was going on for you? Yes, absolutely. You know, I'm a 58-year-old wife of 25 years and mother of three and 30 years under my belt in writing and television. And that was the ordinary part. The other part is that for eight years of those, I did much of the above, none by alcohol.

And thank God I never let my drinking slip into the day. I never reached the point where my behaviour would put others in danger. And I can only think that my maternal instinct was stronger than my addiction. And whilst I put a value on other people's lives, I didn't put a value on my own. And that when you say it didn't put a value on my own. And that when you say it didn't go into the daytime, you only started drinking at six? Yeah, I was very controlled about it. So I would. Yeah, as soon as the clock hit six o'clock, that would be the time that I'd crack open a bottle of wine. And then being an alcoholic, once I started, I couldn't stop. And of an evening, could you give us an idea what you would drink?

I probably, every single day I would drink, it got to the stage where I was drinking a bottle to a bottle and a half. And I think there'll be a lot of listeners who will think, well, that's what I do. And they might not be an alcoholic but it's it's how the alcohol affects you so I would wake up in the morning not you know trying to recall how I've been what I'd done and then the feeling as you mentioned of shame and guilt um was overwhelming and I think that's the, for me, that was when I understood

I had a serious problem with alcohol. Those mornings must have been pretty rough. They were, I would wake up and I just pray that the four horsemen would come along and take me away. You know, it was, it was very lonely lonely and I think as a high-functioning alcoholic and someone who is holding down a family and a job it's a very lonely place to be and uh because you are putting forward this charade that you're okay and you're managing but inside you're dying and you can't share that with anyone do you know why you wanted to be numbed like that? It's interesting, Emma. You know, no.

I mean, I think, you know, I've heard from other people that they drink to numb their feelings. I think I drank because I really enjoyed it. And sometimes I was bored. So if I was doing something and I think, oh, well, you know, I'll just have a few drinks and everything became more fun and more exciting until it didn't. Was there a moment where, you know, to use the phrase rock bottom? Yes, I had. Well, to my eternal shame, I remember a party I went to and someone went up to my husband and said, I think you should take your wife home because I could barely stand. And then another time we were on holiday and I blacked out and fell and broke two transverse processes in my back. And that's when

I asked for help. And as a high functioning female alcoholic, it's very difficult to ask for help. But I did. And that saved me. Wow. I mean, a lot of people will be, even if they don't get in touch, they'll be silently nodding along with the radio right now. So you are doing something important by talking about this, if I can say that to you. In terms of those feelings of shame I know that also within your own family your mother and grandmother drank. Yes. How have you kind of brought that together in your mind? I know you know, I don't really attach my addiction to my grandmother or mother. Yes, it's something I lived with, with my mother when I was growing up, and I hated her for it at the time when I was younger.

But now I'm looking back, I appreciate it's an illness. You know, she wasn't a bad person trying to be good. She wasn't a sick person wanting to get well. I think that's, I just wanted to say, I've read that you've said that about yourself and I think it's such a powerful statement, a sick person wanting to be well. it is and it's funny Emma because so many you know it's very different for women and men you know if you're a man and you're drinking you're one of the lads you're macho let's have a beer whereas if you're a woman especially a mother you're a bad mother, you're a bad mother. If you're not a mother, then you're a loose woman with loose morals. So there are very different labels attached to drinking between the sexes. You say your life turned around once you started to acknowledge it and ask for help, which is so hard to do in lots of different circumstances. What have been the benefits of stopping drinking, of changing your life through a lot of hard work?

I think I have a life. You know, I have a life which I didn't have before. And before, my life revolved around how I was going to drink without anyone knowing about it. And my world now has opened up. And it's been extraordinary to notice the small things, the things that I've missed. And when I did stop, I took on several big challenges. I did Tough Guy for sport relief and I went on an expedition to the Arctic with my son, which was hugely challenging, both mentally and physically. And I loved it. And the power I felt from these physical activities was a better high than anything I'd had from alcohol. And now I've read you've been throwing yourself into all sorts of wild waters. Yes, I've been, you know, wild swimming,

as the world calls it now, but really it's just good old-fashioned outdoor swimming. But it doesn't sound as glamorous. That's one of the things I love about it. And because there is nothing glamorous about it and I don't care. And that's the last thing on my mind. And it's one of the best things about it. And it's it's sort of it's I do it with. Well, I was doing it with a group of other women, some of whom I didn't know.

And it's incredibly bonding because you're in a vulnerable state you're in freezing cold water and you're out of your comfort zone and you very quickly gain strength from sharing your vulnerabilities that's the same thing in sharing your story about about alcohol we get strength from each other. And I, you know, after I wrote the article for the Mail, the response was so overwhelming. And quite often, you know, when I put myself out there, I get criticised for it or whatever.

But I have to say it's the first time it was unanimously positive. And I have had say it's the first time it was unanimously positive and and I have had so many letters so many messages um of people crying out for help or empathizing and clearly this shows what a big problem it is we also exacerbated we have many many messages coming in off the back of what you're saying people saying for instance i recognized i was using alcohol in an unhealthy manner regularly drinking two bottles of wine i've stopped last drink was the 15th of january i realized i wasn't a good parent wife or an employee i'm now sleeping better working better feeling better i hope to get to a stage where i can have a glass without going mad well our husband is here so i'm not putting my children

at risk interesting she felt she had to say that at the end normally people do associate you with the world of of fashion and style I just have to ask a final question about this you have a podcast called my wardrobe malfunction which you're coming on Emma I hope to yes even though we've had a bit of a round we've had a bit of a round about you say I'm not allowed to wear flesh-coloured tights and as a dress wearer, what am I meant to do in this country when I'm cold? But anyway, could you just, in a very brief space of time, because I really think the listeners of Women's Hour will appreciate it,

you've got the best wardrobe malfunction story to do with Prince Philip. Could you just share it with us? Yes. Well, clothes can let you down. And this is what the podcast is all about. And I was at a dinner at Windsor Castle, as one is. And I'm sat between Prince Philip and I think it was Prince Edward in a beautiful dress, which my father had got me. And I didn't notice anything. And Prince Philip bosoms were on display for the entire room.

And a butler came along with a safety pin and recovered my modesty. So that was that was a serious malfunction. And he was trying to help, I presume. He was trying to help. Absolutely. Alert you to the breast situation. Yeah. Susanna Constantine, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. And as I say, fashion is normally where we are with you. And I'm very happy we could do a little bit of that there.

But mainly for talking to us about your battle with alcoholism. As I say, many messages coming in to which I will return. But actually, keeping with fashion of a sense, it does seem that thousands of women's jobs could disappear following the purchase of Topshop, Topman and the Miss Selfridge brands and their stock by the online fashion retailer ASOS. Fellow online retailer Boohoo bought Debenhams, the Debenhams brand and website last week and it's not clear at this stage if any of the physical high street stores involved will reopen. Why does this shift to online retail disproportionately affect women's jobs? I'm joined now by the retail expert, Catherine Shuttleworth,

chief executive of the retail marketing agency, Get Savvy. Catherine, why is it then women are disproportionately affected? Well, more women work in retail, work in physical shops. And actually in the Arcadia group group they were female and under 35 so the majority of people about 80% female and under 35 and it's not so easy to find a job locally close to where you live once you lose them. Yes well the other side of it is if it goes online of course there won't be as many jobs Are they going to be filled by women? Well, it's interesting. ASOS have said this morning, actually, in the last hour or so,

that they are looking at keeping a few shops. But really, they are committed to being an online business. And their online distribution centres are in certain parts of the country. They're certainly not in every town up and down the UK. And what you find in distribution centres is where retail is full of women, distribution centres tends to be historically full of men. So you flip the numbers round. And it's not as easy to get to distribution centres. You know, they tend to be out of town, quite close to motorways. You see them when you go up and down the M1. And for a lot of women who use public transport to get to work, they're just not easy places to get to or the kind of work they necessarily want to do. It's going to be a serious amount of job losses, isn't it? I mean, if you add Arcadia to Debenhams, it's around 25,000 mainly women's jobs. Well, I mean, what's union membership like?

Well, I mean, it's a spectacular amount of jobs that are being lost and union membership tends to be weaker in retail anyway and weaker for women. And it's certainly not what we would see in manufacturing industries that tend to be a bit more male dominated. I mean, it's ironic, Emma, isn't it, that, you know, a few weeks ago, the whole of the British fishing industry is about 23,000 people. And we seem to be stuck on talking about that. And here we are, two retail businesses disappearing off the high street, 25,000 people, lots of whom are women. And there are more, unfortunately, to come, I think, in other retailers over the next few months. And we've got a real problem in the UK because we aren't going to be able to replace those jobs. And a lot of families are going to suffer because these are important jobs to make sure that family incomes are topped up. And sometimes these are the only people who work in families.

Where can these workers, majority female, go instead? Yeah, a lot of them last time there was a big sort of change in the retail sector, went into caring professions, so into social care. A lot of them went into hospitality. But of course, hospitality is another sector that is going through massive change. And, you know, there are other things that are withdrawing from the high street. So things like banks and building societies aren't there anymore. So it's difficult to see where these women are going to find new jobs. Lots of them have been furloughed all of this year. And I think today there'll be a lot of very concerned families up and down the UK wondering where these jobs are going to come from. Have we got a situation now where there are new things coming onto the horizon that could potentially also be spaces for women? It's slow. I don't think there's going to be anything that's going to suddenly fill this void of jobs at a local level. And I think that's the thing we've got to remember. This isn't big cities. This is small towns up and down the

country where there is going to be a lack of investment as we go into a period of real economic difficulty following on from the pandemic. So, I mean, it's a fairly depressing thought. But no, there are not places that these women are going to find jobs. And there's going to have to be a lot of support to get people retrained to go into new tech businesses and incentives for businesses to relocate across the UK. A message came in from Keith on Twitter. I sympathise with anyone losing their job, but I remember the hundreds of thousands of traditional male jobs lost under the Conservatives,

and nobody cared about the devastation that caused and is still blighting the country. You can, of course, argue about who cared and how that was discussed, but what do you make of a message like that? Well, I think the impact of those job losses back in the 80s, you know, have continued and have had in certain parts of the country, particularly in the north and the northeast, long-term massive impacts. And we wouldn't want to see that repeated, would we? We've got to learn from the mistakes of the past and we can only really deal with what's happening today.

And I think that that's something that has to have some government involvement, some intervention. Otherwise, we are going to have some real big societal problems. I mean, do you think talking? I'm sorry, I was just going to say, do you think the government should step in here, though? Because, of course, you know that these brands are being bought. They're not being propped up like other industries have been, not necessarily during the pandemic, but in times gone by. What do you make of that? I think where the government have got to step in is they've got to decide what they want high streets to look like. So, you know, you can't stop the power of online retailing. We as shoppers all like to shop online. But what the government have got to do I think is look at business rates work out how it can actually be profitable to have shops on the high street and help rethink

what the high street is going to look like so they've already got the high street task force who are putting lots of money into high streets in the UK with new schemes lots of capital projects but I think now we've also got to think about how are we going to replace some of these jobs that have been missing? And maybe it's around training, that's where the government have got to be involved. But there's got to be a sort of concerted effort locally and nationally to think about how we're going to support these people. Because as I say, there could be more job losses on the way. Does this fit into or how does this fit into potentially what has been started to be talked about, which is the she session?

So during the pandemic, women being hit harder than men in several ways. Well, I think that that's a really good point. I mean, at the beginning of the programme today, we were listening, weren't we, about the prime minister thanking us for teaching our children and looking after us and what a great job we're doing. But women are taking on the majority of those tasks. Well, some men would dispute that. Some of them would. We have many male listeners, but you've also got to look at reality and where there isn't perhaps a man in the home as well.

Absolutely. I've got three kids that are currently learning from home. My husband does a great job with them. But I think the majority of women are taking on those roles, trying to protect one job in the family. And it's very, very difficult. And my concern in the longer term is how are women going to feel about work? You know, how are they going to feel about how they can manage work, bringing up children, and how they're going to feel about their employers. And I think a lot of women feel let down by some of these big retail organisations where they've lost their jobs very quickly. And there's really nothing to help and support them.

So I think there is a really big change in terms of how we feel about work. Retail expert Catherine Shuttleworth, thank you for your time. Well, we've got a book that we're going to discuss now, which is new out. It's about work, how we feel about it, the place of it in society. It's titled Work Won't Love You Back. How devotion to our jobs keeps us exploited, exhausted and alone. Its author, Sarah Jaffe, joins me now. I'm hoping you could have heard that conversation, Sarah. Yes, I did. And you couldn't have set me up better. Thanks for having me. Well, we're trying to do our jobs well here, Sarah, in light of your book and what you've

argued. Could I start with lockdown and what we've seen around the world? And it may not have been designed in this way. There are arguments against what I'm about to say, but I'll ask you the question, is lockdown unwittingly sexist as a lifestyle? I mean, it's not a lifestyle, but you know what I'm saying. I think the thing that lockdown has done, right, is it's forced us all back spending a whole lot more time home than we used to do. And that means a whole lot of different things for a whole lot of different people, right? So in a lot of cases, your male listeners that you were talking about there are suddenly stuck in a home that they might not be spending that much time in. women who are dropping out of paid work, either because of things like, I'm sure we'll get back around to Topshop closing and the hospitality jobs that are disappearing, but also because they're having to pick up the slack in childcare and other things that, you know, yeah, it winds up looking pretty sexist. But I mean, I think that just has made clear how much, how unequal that distribution of work in the home still is.

Your idea here, and you get it pretty quickly, work won't love you back. Yes. You know, you've written in great detail about a lot of the theories, how work has changed. Tell us about when we started to be made to feel as a society, we should love our work or get something from our work. Yeah, it's actually interesting that you had the listener mentioning the loss of men's jobs, because I do actually think that that has something to do with why this has changed. Right. Because if you worked in a factory or in a coal mine, you're just not expected to come to work with a smile on your face in the same way. It doesn't matter if you smile while mining coal in the way that it matters if you smile while working at Topshop. And so as your previous guest was saying, the loss of those jobs,

the loss of those industrial jobs wasn't replaced by similar jobs. People went into different types of work. And one of the types similar jobs. People went into different types of work. And one of the types of work that they went into in large numbers was retail, also caring professions, like your guest said. And those are jobs that require a lot more emotional investment from people. And those are jobs that have traditionally been done by women. So should you go to work and not enjoy it? Just take it for all the money that you can get, squeeze out of it, whatever it is that you do, and leave yourself, your real self at home. So I think I'm less worried about people's sort of individual emotional relationships with work

and much more interested in, can we have a conversation as a society that says that we work because we need money, right? That we have a society that a society that says that we work because we need money, right? That we have a society that's set up to require us to work in order to be able to pay the bills. And so what kinds of rules can we put in place society-wide to make sure that we all actually have some time away from work, that we all actually can take a break from it mentally, emotionally, and physically? How can we actually divide up the work more equitably? So if we have 25,000 jobs disappearing in retail, the people who are losing those jobs aren't just stuck doing nothing, have no options. Can we actually think about the thing that we've talked about so much since the pandemic? What is essential work? What is key work?

What is the necessary work that needs to be done as a society in order for us all actually to live better lives? Do you think the pandemic will change that conversation about work or do you fear it could be a missed opportunity? I think it already has changed the conversation. I guess the question of whether it's going to change our lives is a little bit more complicated, right? And that's going to require some political action. I mean, you were talking about the advert that went out from the government about women, about the work that was being done during pandemic that sort of depicted it all as women's work, right? Like that's indication of something that needs to change. And that maybe, you know, the pushback

that people have gotten for that is a sign that we are ready to do some more political thinking and talking about work. Because in your book, I mean, this is not by any stretch, the only thing you do say, but one of the conclusions you could draw from your work is around joining a union, getting on a picket line and finding your voice through collective action. And we actually do see that union membership has grown in certain sectors with the young in recent years. But we just heard, for instance, that it's low in retail and it's low amongst women. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the most interesting stories in the UK, I think recently was the, you know, the growth of the National Education Union by something like 16,000 workers as teachers who are, again, a majority female profession got involved in organizing around their safety around the schools reopening.

So that's a really interesting story. But yeah, in retail, in the book, so I focus on the individual stories of workers in different industries. And the woman that I profiled who works in retail, her name is Anne-Marie Reinhart. She actually got involved in organizing when her store was closing. So she worked at a company called Toys R Us. I don't actually know how prevalent it ever was in the UK, but it was a major, you know, toy store. Again, this is a workforce dominated by women. And when the company went bankrupt, which has an interesting connection to the story of Topshop, because both Topshop and the company that owns it and Toys R Us had some significant investment from private equity companies that, of course, expect a return

on their money and are pretty well known for leaving sort of bankruptcy and shambles in their wake. So the company that invested in Arcadia had also invested in J.Crew, in Neiman Marcus, some other companies that have gone bankrupt during the pandemic. And so what Anne-Marie ended up doing, rather than unionizing while she was at her job, was she only found out sort of work wouldn't love her back when she was losing that job, and then got involved in a long campaign against the same kind of private equity takeovers that have happened to these retail stores to actually try to save jobs for people. So again, it's a bit more complicated than just, you know, work is terrible. But I think

there are a lot of ways that people can get involved with organizing politically around their workplace, even if that is around the loss of that workplace. What do you make of people trying to game the capitalist system to free themselves from work? So the FIRE movement, for instance, financial independence, retire early, you play the stock market effectively with the little money you can push away and then you can get out of work altogether. And we can see right now with what's going on with the stock market, you know, the little guy, the little woman versus Wall Street with GameStop is a very interesting moment. Do you think that's a way out? I, you know, I don't think it's a way out, but I do think that you're absolutely right to bring it up in this moment, because I think it is really important that we understand that people are looking at this, as a friend of mine, Brett Scott, actually wrote in The Guardian just a couple of days ago, as a way out of the sort of word I can't say on the radio jobs that people are being forced into. So I don't think they'll win

for the same reason that I don't think that Arcadia could win against private equity takeovers, because finance is essentially still, you know, it exists to shovel money upwards. So the, you know, the temporary boost in GameStop stock is probably not in the long run going to save GameStop retail stores. But I think it's important to note that people are looking at different ways to say that the way we work now isn't working. You are a freelance writer. You also speak, you do other things around that, as anyone who's freelance probably knows you have to do. Do you love your work? Have you, because, you know, a lot of people in your sort of creative field will have thought, oh, that's, that's a great thing to be in. I want to like my work. I want to feel it's meaningful.

You know, I literally opened the book, right, with the words, I love my work. And it's true, right? I mean, this is great. It's 5.41am where I am because I'm in New York. And I, but this is fun, right? It's fun to talk to you and to all of your listeners about these things that I've learned. But also, it's incredibly difficult sometimes. And it's also, it's really hard talking to someone like Anne-Marie, you know, I'm sitting before the pandemic was sitting in her living room with her, She's telling me these stories, these sort of awful stories she has from her working life. And that's really hard. It's really emotionally difficult sometimes.

I'm sure you understand because I'm sure you have the same experience, right? Talking to people about some of the hardest moments of their lives sometimes. And so there's a way that no amount of sort of loving my job can make up for the parts of my job that are really hard. The thing that can make up for that is being able to take a break when I need to and have a therapist that I talk to, bless her, I've been talking to for eight years now. You know, the things that some financial security makes possible for me. And yet you make the point, I was possible for me and yet you made the point actually makes it yeah i was just gonna say you make the point you make the point at the age of

40 you don't own your own property you've only just finished off paying your your student loan someone with your level of education uh historically would have been in a very different place as a signifier of how things have changed i mean what i would ask you though is what is the alternative i've only got about a minute left but you, it's very hard for people to even raise their heads above water a lot of the reasons going back to the question of the pandemic and lockdown is that, you know, because of things like the furlough scheme, some people have actually had a chance to think about their work lives and reevaluate that, that they might never have had before. In the US, the same thing, we had sort of expanded unemployment where people were able to stay home for a little while. And that actually, as much as anything, can be a moment where we can think about, is the way we work

working? Is this something we would like to change? And again, not just for women working in retail, but also for men working in, you know, what's left of industrial employment in these countries. Well, you did manage to do that. We can't quite get all the answers. But as you say, people perhaps having a bit more time to think if they can here and there. And yet at the same time, I know there'll be people thinking, think? I haven't even got time to brush my own hair or sit down for a proper hot cup of tea at the moment. Sarah Jaffe, thank you very much for your time. The book's called Work Won't Love You Back. How devotion to our jobs keeps us exploited, exhausted and alone.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, did you know that in a million years there'll be no more total solar eclipses because the moon is gradually moving away from the earth? Or that during China's cultural revolution people were arrested for bourgeois habits

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