Woman's Hour - Swimming coaching, LGB Alliance, Welsh women's football, Author Emma Stonex

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

A world-record breaking swimmer has told the BBC she was left 'broken' by the training regime of one of the UK’s most successful swimming coaches. Rūta Meilutytė - who won gold at the London 2012 Olympics at the age of 15 – said coach Jon Rudd’s focus on her weight and diet contributed to her struggle with an eating disorder. Mr Rudd, who has faced multiple allegations of bullying and verbal abuse of teenage swimmers, has not responded to the BBC. Panorama's Rebecca Woods joins Nuala McGovern to discuss her investigation, The Dark Side of Swimming Clubs, which raises wider questions about an alleged toxic culture for young swimmers in the UK. Woman's Hour is hearing different perspectives on the recent Supreme Court ruling on the definition of a woman under the Equality Act, and how it could and should be interpreted on the ground. Today Nuala speaks to Kate Barker, CEO of LGB Alliance. They were part of a coalition along with Scottish Lesbians and the Lesbian Project, that intervened in the case. Today the BBC launches the Women’s Summer of Sport, marking the start of a bumper summer of coverage including the Euros, the Rugby World Cup and Queen’s tennis tournament. The Welsh women’s football team have been called 'history makers' after qualifying for the European Championship for the first time. Three of the players, Josie Green, Lily Woodham and Elise Hughes, tell us what this means for them and how they are preparing for their debut tournament. The author Emma Stonex joins Nuala to talk about her new suspense novel The Sunshine Man. Set it 1989, it tells the story of Birdie, set on taking revenge on the man who she believes murdered her sister. Emma tells us how she approached writing the book, and touches on some of its themes, including the bonds between sisters and parental abandonment. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Newland McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, as we kick off the BBC Summer of Sport, we have three of the Wales football team who have qualified for the Euros for the very first time. Get ready for Jacey Green, Lily Woodham and Elise Hughes this hour. And they may be household names after the UEFA Women's European Championships. Also today, we continue to hear different perspectives on the UK Supreme Court ruling.

That decided the terms woman and sex in the Equality Act 2010 refer to a biological woman and biological sex. We're going to hear from Kate Barker, CEO, LGB Alliance, one of the organizations who intervened in the ruling. We will hear other views in coming programs. Plus the author Emma Stonix. Her new book is The Sunshine Man, a thriller that centers around sibling bonds and how sometimes a sibling steps into the role of parent. I'd like to hear your stories of having a sibling that was a parental figure for you or maybe you were the parental figure for your brother or sister. Why was that? How was that? You can text the program the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03 700 100 444.

But let us begin this morning with swimming. A world record breaking swimmer has told the BBC she was left broken by the training regime of one of the UK's most successful swimming coaches. Ruta Melutita, who at just 15 won gold at the London 2012 Olympics said coach John Rudd's focus on her weight and diet contributed to her struggle with an eating disorder. Mr Rudd has faced multiple allegations of bullying and verbal abuse of teenage swimmers. He has not responded to the BBC. The story raises wider questions about an alleged toxic culture for young swimmers in the UK. There is a new panorama which will air on BBC One this evening and joining me to tell me more

is Panoramas Rebecca Woods. Welcome. Thank you. Hello. So tell us a little more about John Rudd. What do we know about him? Yes, John Rudd is actually one of the biggest names in British swimming. He's the current performance director of Swim Ireland. He started off as head coach of a swimming club called Plymouth Leander in 1989 and he had this dream to turn it into one of the biggest clubs in the country. And it worked. Children came from all over the world. People have told us that John was like this master salesman. He sold people a dream. Come to Plymouth, we'll make you a star. And to be honest with you,

you know, it worked for quite a few people. Plymouth Leander has created several Olympians, but we've spoken to 12 swimmers who they were coached by John and they say that they suffered serious emotional abuse and bullying and weight shaming. So behind the success there was this much darker side. When we say a swimming coach, what sort of responsibilities do they have? Yeah, because I mean obviously they're there to train these people, they're there to train these children, but it's not just about the swimming. I mean some of

these children are swimming for up to 20 hours a week. They see their swimming coach more than their parents. There's a huge responsibility on these coaches to safeguard these young people and there's a code of conduct, there's a document called wave power that Swim England issued to every member. Now these have been in circulation for years and years and years, this is nothing new. So there's a real responsibility for coaches to look after the children that are with them for several hours a day. In Panorama you speak to the star Lithuanian swimmer Ruta Miljutite. Tell me more about

her journey. Sure so Ruta Miljutite she's a really big name in swimming she's 28 now and she's still at the top of her game and she's one of the most famous people in our country of Lithuania she can't walk down the street without without being recognized. Now she came to England in 2010 when she was 13 to be coached at Plymouth Leander. Just, you know, one of those kids that came from all over the world. She went on to break a series of records, but she's most famous for winning gold in the 100m breaststroke at London 2012. She was just 15. And that medal made a star of her coach, John Rudd too. So, Ruta was the biggest star that came out of Plymouth Leander

but we have spoken to her and she actually says that again behind her success she really really struggled and unfortunately she lays a lot of that at John Rudd's door. Well let's hear from Ruta about what it was like to train with John. John said my ass is fat in one competition when I was 16. I broke a world record that day. I think that was because I was angry. The whole vibe around our own bodies and weight and how one should look, it did contribute to my eating

disorder. Although, I would say there were many things that contributed to it. I was very ashamed of how I would binge, how I would throw up, and there's just a whole vicious cycle of not feeling enough, feeling ashamed, hiding it. Panorama has made numerous attempts to contact John Rudd about our investigation and he hasn't responded. And I must also say that Plymouth Leander says it's under new leadership and it's reviewed its safeguarding policies

to provide the safest possible environment. And it says Rudd was employed directly by Plymouth College, which was responsible for its oversight. They were in a partnership at the time, the club and the college. Plymouth College also has new owners and says the clubs was responsible for safeguarding and that excellence should never come at the cost of individual well-being. We heard a little there from Ruth about the vicious cycle of not

feeling enough, feeling ashamed, hiding it. How would you describe the impact of an experience like that on a young athlete? I mean it's huge because actually we talk about athletes but I think we forget that they're children. Most of these people are children with a serious hobby, a hobby that they've given up most of their life for. They train before school, they train after school, so when the person that they look up to on a daily basis starts, you know, they cross that line, it's not banter. It's abuse. When they start being abusive, the consequences can be devastating.

And, you know, I have to say that I've spoken to people who are in their 20s and 30s, they're still traumatized by some of the experiences that they had when they were children. You've been working on this story for a long time, Rebecca, for three years. What was it like trying to find people to speak to? So I would say that it's not trying to find people to speak to? So I would say that it's not hard to find people to speak to. Really? There's been a steady stream of people that have got in touch since I first wrote about a club in the

West Midlands three years ago. What is hard is for people to speak out, to go on record, because there is a real culture of fear and Swim England have recognised that. They've had a listening report, they spoke to thousands of their members and they found that there is a culture of fear, there is a culture fear of speaking out. People are worried about being ostracised, they're worried about being thrown off teams, so it's really really unusual to be in the sport and speaking out and that's what Root has done. One of the other people you spoke to was Britain's Olympic champion, Rebecca Adlington. What did she have to

say? Yeah so as I've said as part of our investigation we've spoken to swimmers from all over the country, all ages that have told us that they've struggled due to a lack of safeguarding and oversight and Rebecca Adlington, this country's most decorated female swimmer, we wanted to find out what was her experience. Now she says that her coach really looked after her welfare, but what she did say that was when she was part of Team GB swimming camp, she saw other swimmers being berated,

and also that there was a huge emphasis on what female swimmers ate and their body shape. Well, let's hear a little of Rebecca Adlington talking about the importance of a good coach in the sport of swimming. In swimming, I have to acknowledge you are very exposed. I love the sport so much, but one big downside is body image. And even now, 36 and people think I'm super confident at putting a costume on.

I am not. The reason why I think I was so successful is because my coach ultimately always saw me as a human being first. Other coaches would try and see how much they could burn their athlete out or push them or shout at them. My coach did none of that. Rebecca Adlington there. You mentioned no response from John Rudd. How has Swim England responded to claims in the past or complaints? Yeah so you know to be fair to Swim England with mountain swimmers speaking out to the BBC they were

quick to apologize. As I said they've carried out the listening review they've been they are listening to what people have got to say but this is about changing the culture and that is hard. They've got a new chief executive, Andy Salmon. You know, he has said to me, if it wasn't in the past, swimmer's welfare is now a priority. They understand that they've made mistakes. But they are taking things seriously. As a result of the failures into John Root, because they were told years and years ago that there were problems at Plymouth Leander and nobody acted. As a result of those failings they're now looking at 1,500 safeguarding investigations that they carried out

over 20 years to see if anything's gone wrong. So I think that does show a commitment to change. So that will that does show commitment to change. So that will be their plan to tackle it. Swim England, which are the governing body for the sport. Panoramas, Rebecca Woods, it will be on this evening. Thank you very much for joining us. And if you have been affected by any of the issues raised, help and support is available on the BBC Action Line. Panorama's program is The Dark Side of Swimming Clubs 8pm on BBC One this evening and on iPlayer from now. Thanks Rebecca. Some of you getting in touch, I was asking about whether you have to step into a parental role for a sibling or whether you had a sibling who was like a parent to you.

Age 10 I promised my parents I would look after my disabled brother forever. Now 67 I've been my brother's full-time carer for several years and I feel grateful I've been able to fulfill my promise so far that's Simon in North umberland here's another my brother is seven years younger than me and I became more of a parental figure for him I was 12 and he was 5 our mom was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and sadly passed away four years later. My relationship with my brother was much easier during this time. By my own admission, our relationship has strains now as I found it very difficult to let go of the parental approach to him. As we both become older, he's now 19 and it's always very hard for me to let go of the caring responsibilities for him

and it causes tension for us both. So I suppose you must be 26 now. Keep your stories coming 84844 if you'd like to get in touch whether you are the parental figure or you had a parental figure as a sibling. Now we are currently hearing different perspectives on the Supreme Court ruling last month that the terms woman and sex in the 2010 Equality Act refer to a biological woman and biological sex. The judgment has implications for many organizations. The Equality and Human Rights Commission, the EHRC, has issued an interim update which says for example in workplaces and services that are open to the public

trans women, those people with gender recognition certificates and those without, should not use women's facilities such as toilets or changing rooms. We're looking at the practical dilemmas this ruling creates for organisations, businesses and individuals. Last week we heard from the barrister Robin Moir-White who's a trans woman and activist. We also heard from two of the four organisations allowed to intervene in the appeal Helen Joyce from Sex Matters and Sacha Desmucq from Amnesty International UK. Today is the turn of LGB Alliance. They were part of a coalition of three organisations,

the others being Scottish Lesbians and The Lesbian Project. I'm joined by Kate Barker, CEO LGB Alliance. Good morning. Good morning. Now you've described this ruling as a watershed moment for women and in particular lesbians. Why? Well it was such an exciting day. I mean we were in the Supreme Court to hear the ruling and of course it's very solemn in there and you're not allowed to speak so we clattered down the stairs and ran outside. People were hugging each other and cheering. There was laughter. Somebody cracked open the champagne which was always great. But I think honestly I think the overriding sense was of relief.

Why? Well, I don't think people understand just quite how tough it's been for lesbians over the last 10, 15 years. I really would characterize it as a kind of a dark age for lesbians. And the reason for that is that the LGBTQ plus lobby groups have been encouraging men to self-identify as lesbians, and those men just haven't taken no for an answer in terms of trying to access women's spaces, women's support services, women's social groups. So it's been really, really difficult. And an example, I suppose, that people might understand quite easily is dating apps. So we all use dating apps now, don't we? Common part of everyday life. If you go on to a lesbian dating

app, you'll find that 20% plus of the people on that app are men. I'm using the word men in the sense that you and I, they're men men. Well let's talk about that particular term men that you use. Who are you referring to? I'm referring to all male people. Are you also referring to those who identify as trans women? I am. Why? Well, I think the dating app is a good example of why. So, consider the dating app, a lesbian dating app, that's full of people, however you want to describe them, that are born male and they're male-bodied.

Now, I'm a lesbian and I go onto that dating app. My criteria is, well, I would prefer to meet somebody without a penis because I'm a lesbian. If I go onto the app and I try to set up my profile and say, I'd like to meet somebody, I don't know, female or somebody who's a biological woman, a real woman in my mind, I'd be booted off the app and the man would be allowed to stay. And the reason for that is that my position would be considered bigoted and unkind and transphobic, but most importantly, it would be considered to be not inclusive. And I think that's just

worth looking at for a second. So me and other women as lesbians will assert our boundaries and that boundary will exclude male people from our dating pool. But that position in and of itself is deemed to be a transphobic position. Now that's the same, we represent lesbians and gay men, but it's the same thing is happening for gay men as well, but if you assert your exclusive same-sex orientation, well homosexuality, that is considered to be something which is not inclusive and which is bigoted and transphobic. So that's why we as an organization were celebrating and cracking open the champagne. You know, because it allows us to...

We can't do our work as an organization that supports same-sex attractive people unless we can clarify what does sex mean. Well, let's talk about a few of these aspects and some of course that are listening may find what you're saying very offensive. Do you ever use the term trans woman? Yes, yes I would do. I prefer to say trans identified male and that's not to not to insult or upset anyone but but we've seen polls which show that 30% of people, the British population, don't know what a trans woman is. They

think that's maybe a woman that's transitioning to a man. So clarity is important. With the people that this will affect, they know what that word would mean for the people that disagree with your point of view, for example. So you're arguing that a biological male can never be a lesbian. There are some trans women, as you know, that say they are lesbians. What would you say to them? Oh, stop it. You know, it's just ridiculous. I think it's an, it was absolutely, one of the things after the Supreme Court ruling, we were all happy and celebrating, but we were exchanging glances and saying to each other, can you believe we're at the Supreme Court to find out whether a man is a lesbian or not? And when I was,, in the 80s, and I was coming out,

very frequently men that were trying to chat me up would sort of sidle up and say, oh, I'm a lesbian too. And at that time everyone around me would sort of roll their eyes and think, goodness, what an idiot that man is. Even people that weren't particularly sympathetic to lesbians, everyone thought he was an idiot, that was the way it was. Today, a man with a beard, who may be married, can go to a lesbian club and go to a lesbian space and say,

I am a lesbian and if I say you're not, then it's me that is considered to be bigoted and unkind rather than protecting lesbian spaces, which is really vital. We have seen over the last 10 and 15 years, communities really breaking up and dissipating and lots of women are just staying at home now and not having the connections that we need to make a vibrant community. And that is one of the points that you are making in relation to this outcome. But let me stay with the term lesbian. In another scenario, if a lesbian dates a trans woman, in your view, is she still a lesbian?

No, no, because there are people who are either homosexual or they're heterosexual or they're bisexual because they're only two sexes and any combination of those things is absolutely fine and people can do exactly as they choose. But if we can't agree what words mean, we can't have meaningful conversations. And that's one of the things as well that's happened over the past 15 years, the kind of loss of language. So it means there's been a real breakdown in the ability to converse properly about things because we don't agree what terms mean. This is why I

think it's so important to explore these terms with you too, for people to understand your point of view and also if I wasn't clear previously, I should say that you were your group with the LGBT Alliance, along with Scottish Lesbians and Lesbian Projects were together as interveners in the ruling, just if I wasn't clear about that. But obviously, your group, those groups don't represent all views of all lesbians. There will be lesbians listening to this program right now say you do not speak for them and that they don't need the protection that you believe is necessary or want to have a space to find in the way that you want it to find.

Absolutely and we're not a monolith and like every other community there's a whole range of views and ideas. And the great thing about this ruling is that lesbians that do want to go to a social group that includes trans people are absolutely able to do so. But the big change is that now we are also able to have a group which is exclusively for lesbians

or a group that's exclusively for gay men. So there's actually more choice for people and not less and I think that's much healthier. Why do you think, as I mentioned, that you don't, your group doesn't represent the views of all lesbians? Why do you think the court wanted to hear from your perspective? think the court wanted to hear from your perspective? An earlier court case, a judge said that she couldn't think of any reason why legally lesbian should be relevant in any walk of life. In an earlier iteration? Yeah, so we thought, well we can think of actually tons of reasons why it's really important

to be able to establish what the term lesbian means and indeed the term gay man. So we are seeing our communities, we were seeing the communities dying frankly, mainly because women were not able to assert that I am a lesbian and meet with other lesbians. And with the community dying by that Kate, do you mean lesbians that would interpret this ruling in the way that you do or all lesbians of all perspectives? I think all lesbians because some things became unsayable and there was a very dark atmosphere where lesbians felt less than within the LGBTQ plus community even if they attach themselves to it. I mean I think it's interesting that the LGBTQ lobby seems to have a newfound interest in lesbians. I've seen a lot of

discussion about the sense that that lesbian women will now be discriminated against in toilets for example. I've seen that used as an argument. So let me just flesh that out for people that aren't familiar with it. Some are disappointed with the ruling. They've said it will increase the harassment of so-called butch lesbians in single sex spaces? Kate Harris and Bev Jackson who started LGB Alliance back in 2019 did it partly because the legacy gay rights charities have absolutely forgotten that lesbians even exist. And the

reason they're interested in, so interested in the plight of Butch lesbians now, is because they think it's a gotcha that they can use in order to claim that this law is far too complicated and difficult to apply, which it isn't. But let's talk about that specific example. I know you're referring to the point of LGBT Alliance and a gotcha moment, but what do you think? That it could increase the harassment of so-called butch lesbians in single sex spaces? I don't think that's the case at all. Why are you not concerned? Because they're talking about people that could be viewed in some ways as more butch or more masculine within a single sex

space for biological females. Because I don't believe it's going to happen. Why? Well, you had Robin Moira-White on earlier, last week. I've met Robin, he's a very tall person, over six foot, extremely broad, has an extraordinarily deep baritone voice. He told you that he's been using women's toilets for decades and no one has ever challenged him. So it seems to me surprising that all of a sudden women with short hair are being

hauled out of toilets. I just don't believe it. I think it's being whipped up from nowhere. And what about those that might say that you're just ignoring that aspect to make your case? That's absolutely not the case. As somebody who was, we didn't even call it that in those days, but misgendered. When I was younger, if I asked somebody where the toilets were, I was very often pointed at the gents. And I'd say, oh, no, but I'm a girl.

And they'd look at me and say, oh, I'm sorry. And we'd both be a bit embarrassed and laugh. And that would be the end of it. Because over millions of years, we've evolved enough to be able to identify who is male and who is female. When you come face to face with somebody and you talk to them and you have an interaction and their body language, you know. So I think it's a very, very small problem. Robin uses the pronouns she and her. You will have heard LGB Alliance has been called anti-trans, trans exclusionary, a hate group.

I think you were referring to some of that a little earlier as well. How do you respond directly to that? LGB Alliance is the only UK registered charity that exclusively supports same-sex attracted people. And we believe that sex is real, that sex is binary, that you can't change sex. And everything we say is based on evidence and facts. Other organisations and individuals who, for their own purposes, would rather replace evidence and facts with gender identity ideology,

are extremely threatened by us. So they sling a lot of mud, but I'm really comfortable that as an organisation we provide positive support across a range of issues for lesbians, gay men and bisexuals to ensure that they can live happy and fulfilling and rewarding lives. And slinging the mud, Manny, would find some of the views that you have put forward offensive to their gender identity, for example. But before I let you go, Kate, what is a concrete example of what can be done now by some in your group that could not be done before this ruling? Give me, I don't know,

something social or something specific. Absolutely. Well, for example, a lesbian social night, so a lesbian disco, which back in the 90s London was absolutely full of lesbian clubs and bars and discos. It was an absolutely great scene. But we haven't been able to do that for 15 years because if you tried to set it up and it had to be set up secretly on a secret WhatsApp group and the venue wasn't released until hours before the event took place, because the organizer would be reported as being transphobic and it would be shut down because it was not an inclusive event, i.e. if a lesbian event did not include men, that was reason enough to shut it down. And we say our key point in our intervention was lesbians must be allowed to gather together without men present. So that's what we're looking forward to doing. We're looking forward to gathering together without men present, and sometimes with men present because, you know, we're a lesbian, gay and bisexual organisation.

Let me leave it there thanks to Kate Barker, CEO, LGB Alliance. If you missed our previous interviews with Sasha Desmukh, CEO of Amnesty International UK or the Barister and Trans Woman Robin Moira White, Sex Matters Director of Advocacy Helen Joyce, you can catch up on all of them on BBC Sounds by listening to the 12th, 14th and 16th of May episodes of Woman's Hour. 84844, if you'd like to get in touch with the programme. Well today the BBC is launching the Women's Summer of Sport. It's going to be a bumper summer with the Women's Euros,

the Rugby World Cup and in tennis, the first women's tournament at Queens in over 50 years. And that's just the start. Today I bring you three women who will be central to the excitement that is to come in the next couple of months. This year for the first time the women's Welsh football team have qualified for the Euros. It's a huge and historic moment for the nation and the players hope it will mark a real moment for the sport in Wales. Three of the national players joined me recently, Josie Green, Lily Woodham and Elise Hughes, who while playing together for their country also all happened to play together for Crystal

Palace at club level. I began by asking Josie to describe what it meant to her to qualify for the Euros with Wales. It's just unbelievable. I think we've tried so hard for so many years to qualify for a major tournament as a group. So for all our hard work that we've done over the years for it to come to fruition, it's yeah, it's a really, also really proud moment for us as a group, but also for our friends and family that have supported us along our journey.

And let's talk about that video, Lily. So this is a video that's on your Instagram shared by some of the others as well. I'm pretty sure I took the video. You did a great job. You took the video. You're kind of on the physios table right? Yeah. With the boots on. Slightly worried you might slip and cause an injury and put the euros in jeopardy. Yes. Do you know what I did get. No. At that point in time, didn't care. There was pizza boxes flying off the back, I think. And yeah, a lot of people were. Some questionable dance moves. Yeah, some of that. So you just qualified, you're in the changing room, you're surrounded by your women. Yes. And away to go.

What was that feeling like? Oh, it's probably the best feeling I think I've had in my football career. To be able to celebrate with this group especially, I think, what everyone's been through and kind of what everyone's put into the journey to do that together and then yeah we had a good night at the hotel together. We did. Your mum and Doreen had a great night as well. My mum and my nan were there living it up till 3am. How lovely though and so at least I'm feeling like, it's not even ripples is it, it's basically

tsunami waves that come from this achievement. Did you know you were on the cusp of it? I think we knew internally that it was about time that we did it and it was obviously a huge sigh of relief when that final whistle went because it was almost like oh my god we actually did do it. There was always oh we are going to do it at some point but as soon as that final whistle went we were like no we've done it now like we're obviously the first women's team to do it we just don't want to be the last now and we want it to be a regular thing. That's so interesting to me that you're already this is just we're already looking forward thinking okay we have to have momentum we have to keep it going. Is that pressure, Josie? I don't think it's pressure. I think, for us, I think it's just the legacy that we want to leave

as footballers that play for our national team. We want to leave football in a better place for young girls in Wales and we want to leave a legacy for them. And we've had a tagline that we've used for a good couple of years now and it's for us, for them, for her. had a tagline that we've used for a good couple of years now, and it's for us for them for her. So it's something that we've always kind of had in the background of what we're doing. So it's something that we're constantly thinking about. But for us to now use the platform and the euros to really make the most of it is something really special. So the legacy, Lily, will be wearing the red. And how does that feel? Because a lot of you have thought about that, about pulling on that red jersey. Lily first.

Yeah, I think, yeah, for us it's an honour. I think as Welsh people, the nation is just, we're so passionate, we're full of pride and kind of being able to pull on the jersey for everyone in the country and kind of do that. I think, yeah, there's a lot of emotion that goes into it and it's a real honour for everyone that's involved. It means so much to us as individuals, it means so much to our family but then it also means so much to the people that are supporting us that don't actually get to do it so we're not just wearing it for all of our family we're wearing it for the people

that are supporting us who have bought their shirt in the shop to be just like us. And I think that's just so inspiring and something that you don't really think of in the moment, but then when you look back you completely appreciate it. Because that's what I'm thinking, like going into this, and the word I'm picking up from Lily is emotion. How do you control that? Because I'm just thinking, you know, you put on the jersey, you put on the boots, you walk out on the pitch. You must be fizzing. I think it's just one of the things you kind of, you do and then you look back on and go, wow. I put on, yeah.

Just like that. And it's just like, you'll do it so naturally when it comes to it, with obviously added nerves because of obviously the stature of the tournament but then you'll look back at the the moment and go wow like now I'm really appreciating it now it's really sinking in like because you wouldn't have thought that when you guys were playing in Dublin like you wouldn't have thought that straight away but now we look they just drop in Dublin for those that haven't been following closely enough, they beat the Republic of Ireland in Ireland, in Dublin in the Aviva Stadium and so qualified and so are here. I want to turn, Lily, to 2023. It was announced by the Welsh FA that the men's and women's teams would be paid the same for representing their country. The men agreed to a 25% pay decrease to make this happen. How do you see that moment?

Obviously it's a big moment for us. I think as a nation we've always kind of wanted to be together and we support them as much as they support us and kind of it's something that the girls have worked for for so many years to try and achieve a similar I guess wage in that sense of kind of playing for your country and we're both doing the same job and kind of, yeah, it's nice to have that fear and have a sense of they actually believe in us and kind of want us to have the same and want us to have the same opportunities as the men and I think, yeah, it sends out a big message that the Welsh FA are backing us.

At least is there an open conversation with the men's team about this, with some of the players? If I'm honest, I think they wouldn't have had any problems with it. I think they were instantly on board and I think it was... Maybe it was almost a shock to them that it wasn't already a thing. So the fact that they instantly came to the table and the FAW decided and all parties agreed was just a unity of what we're like in Wales now. And it was a big step because it's almost happened so quickly because even a matter of a few years before like that would never have been in question and then within a few years it was like this is what the women get, this is what the men can get and we're all going to be equal and

then we're all going to qualify for major tournaments. You take it just like that, we're just all going to go. Just as easy as that. You see it as all related, Josie. I do want to also just underline that they took a pay cut, which is quite something. Were you surprised, Josie? Maybe not surprised, but yeah, just a sense of pride really for our national team that we've managed to come to that decision and we can have equal access to not just the money, but also the facilities and everything that comes with it. Is there something you'd like to see changed at the moment that you see that

you think that could help us? I think just the grassroots football for young girls. Do you know how easy it is for boys to just play? Yes. We just want that same accessibility for the girls. Yeah. How did you all get into it? Just as we were sitting down I heard people talking about being nine, ten years of age but tell me the story. Let me start with you Josie and then we'll go around the table. Yeah mine was I used to play with the boys in school. There wasn't a girls team when I started and then I was at my brother's game and I used to just watch on the sidelines and I think I had a bundle full of energy and my parents you you know, wanted to put that in somewhere and managed to find a local girls team. But I know

it's not, it wasn't that easy for many, many people. And I think if I wasn't a kid that was comfortable to play with the boys, I think it probably would have been a different story for me. So, yeah, that's really mine. It's the same really. I think we've, yeah, as jokes, I kind of started playing with the boys as well. And yeah, looking for a girl's team was tough same really I think with yeah as Jokes I kind of started playing with the boys as well and yeah looking for a girls team was tough and I think same again in terms of you do get parents and boys kind of say things to you that kind of could knock your confidence and could think oh did that happen to you? Yeah a few times of luckily for me the team I played for the boys that are around me and my friends in school were always so supportive.

My friends from home have always been behind me. But yeah, I guess teams you play against is kind of, oh, they've got a girl, they're going to be rubbish, why is she playing? Those kinds of things, like Jo said, could have easily been like, oh, maybe this isn't where I should be. That you have to have a thick skin at 10? Yeah, at 10, that boys kind of fall, yeah, she's going to be rubbish at football. So yeah, I think, yeah, luckily as well well I found a girls team at home and you then kind of feel

like, oh okay, I belong here, this is something I can do. But yeah, starting off the boys team and especially for girls it can be tough, so yeah, like we're saying, we want to leave a legacy where that isn't an issue anymore and kind of girls can be like, well I don't care what anyone else says because Wales have done it and they've gone to the Euros and done that for us. Elise, your story. Mine was a bit different. Mine was I just literally just played in the garden with my dad and, you know, it was out of me and my sister

and my sister definitely wasn't going to be a footballer. And my brother came along a few years later. So then it became a me, my brother, and my dad thing. But I didn't join a girls team until late. It was about, I was about 10 or 11, so I didn't join a team until late. And I didn't really play in school with the boys as often. I'd play like some school games,

but then as soon as you hit 12, it was a rule at the time that you couldn't play with boys anymore. So I didn't know that. So when I went to high school, it was like, you're gonna have to join the girls school team. And obviously it wasn't as big of a thing then. So we didn't obviously play as many games or get as far.

And then when I was in my last year at school, the rule changed all of a sudden and girls could play with boys until 16. So in the last year of school, we played and, you know, my mates at school were all boys. And, you know, I think because at the time I was at Everton I think they just knew that I was good enough to play with them if not better than them. I'm wondering so we're talking about these little girls that are starting but now we're talking about

history makers now we're talking about going to the Euros and you know with the Lionesses we can throw out a number of names that are now household names that people know. Are you ready for the focus and the attention that's about to be on you? I think credit completely where it's due for the lionesses I think they grew overnight and you know their campaign at the home euros really did grow the game for us all. We're all part of the English system at some point if it was when we were a kid or now like in the WSL or the championship. We compete in that league and it's only grown ever since that's happened. I think it might be a bit different for us because like household names in Wales is a really comfortable and cool thing to be, whereas I think I know some of-

Because it's smaller? I think just because the nations so together and like it's all really like a family feel, so like they- it's kind of already a thing but like I wouldn't just like walk down the street and someone recognized me but I would go to a game and they have a huge 15 shirt on. And that's just really, like a really nice introduction to what might be in the future for Wales. Yeah, we've got some amazing players that play for Wales and I think it's about time that they can showcase themselves

at a major tournament and we've got such talent in the team and I'm just excited for that to be shown over the summer. You mentioned the Women's Super League there, Elise. You all played for Crystal Palace recently, relegated from the Women's Super League, the top tier of women's club football in England. A disappointment, I'm sure. How do you deal with that?

I know you've got this amazing thing going on one track but then you know you got club going on maybe I don't know disappointing or you tell me. Yeah definitely like football is highs and lows you can't just expect the highs we had obviously the highest of highs in December when we qualified and you know you can't just expect as a footballer that it's always going to be like that and you know there's so many great teams in that league and you obviously want to be competing in it. We did compete till the end. It was just obviously a really difficult season for us as a team. But something that we only want to bounce back from now.

Are you able to compartmentalise disappointment? For example, I wish that hadn't happened, for example, but going out on the pitch for Wales, can you just put the Crystal Palace business to the side? I think as footballers we kind of just learn to not, you can't really dwell. I think like Eilidh said, No overthinking. It's just a rollercoaster. You probably take the next day or two and you're sad and you're emotional about it, but yeah, you can't dwell on it because then you've got a game against Ireland in Dublin that you can't win the next week so yeah. In the first playoff game like Lily scored and in the second Josie wins man of the match and

just like that like we're now like Wales players that have stepped up like when they've needed to step up. It was just unfortunate that from a club point of view we didn't do that this year, but we have every faith that we'll be promoted again and really compete within the WSL. And also we just want to add we have such good support systems at Wales, like psychologists, if we need to switch off and speak to them and get over them, they're really supportive. And, you know, I've found yoga and breathwork and things that help me stay present and switch off and focus on football. So I think it's just you finding different tools, you know, you have yourself.

So Josie has the breathwork and the yoga. Lily, what's yours, your go-to? Goodness, my family. I think, yeah, after a tough game I'd probably end up driving home and spending time with them. Elise? I just love a morning coffee. But one thing, of course, that can help us all, I think we're all kind of on the same page with this, is good music. Yes. Now, I hear that Lily is the resident DJ. What is the song that is a surefire one to get them going ahead of your first game? Proud Mary. Is that unanimous? Yeah, everyone up. It's like a schedule on the wall. It's like coach arrives, team talk, team talk. Just

before the walk out for the warm up is like Proud Mary. Yeah, just there. In the schedule. Every day. We'll think of that. Women's Hour listeners also going to join you this morning for some of the Wales women, footballers, history makers who have qualified for the Euros. Thank you. It seems rude to interrupt doesn't it? Josie Green, Lily Woodham and Elise Hughes with me there and as I mentioned earlier the BBC Women's Summer Sport kicks off today. There's

more information online and you will be hearing coverage all across the BBC in the coming months, as well as, of course, right here on Woman's Hour. I was asking you about parental roles. Maybe you had to step into one for your siblings or you had one in a sibling. Here's a message that came in. My dad left us when I was three. We were a family of five children and one on the way. My big brother, aged seven, took on the role of father to the three youngest of us.

And we were called the three babies. He was and still is brilliant. And now at the age of 60, I am still seen as one of the three babies. Love you, Michael. You're a star. What a lovely message. Keep them coming. 84844. Now, I'm talking about that because of the next book we're going to discuss. This is The Sunshine Man.

It's the second suspense thriller written by Emma Stonex. It tells the story of Birdie, who in January of 1989 wakes up to the news that she's been waiting 18 years to hear Jimmy Maguire, the man who killed her younger sister, has been freed from jail. The book's author, Emma, worked as an editor in publishing before becoming a writer and is in the Women's Art Studio now. Good morning. Good morning. Great to have you with us. Obviously touched a nerve when I kind of threw out that theme that is in your book.

But we're going to begin with a short reading from you that gives us an idea of Birdie, your main female protagonist, while she's on the road in pursuit of this man, James Maguire. Let us listen. I had to sleep but was afraid to. In case the moment I turned my back on my thoughts, they prodded me awake. And for an instant my sister would be with me, still here, never gone, her lovely smile and her forever eyes, and my heart would soar, reach altitude, prick and burst. One would imagine there were only so many times a heart could burst, but no, it just went on, it just went on, because although the heart

saved more than was kind, her finding my face with her fingers when she was a baby, her lips on my eyelids kissing me night-night. Sometimes it forgot, and this felt so cruel as to be surely deliberate, a forgetting whose sole purpose was to prompt the bittersweet pain of remembrance. I understood then, with hatred it felt scarcely plausible to possess, that unless I took James Maguire's life as he had taken hers hers I would never be free. Thanks for that Emma. Well this is a story of anger and revenge expressed there in that reading in such an extreme way. Why did you want to explore this theme of revenge in Birdie's character? She was taking the law

into her own hands even though we could say justice had been served by McGuire going to prison. I think what really fascinated me with Birdie's character is this tension between, she describes herself as an ordinary woman, she's the mother who packs the lunches, burns the toast, helps with the homework, and yet at the heart of her is this really fierce desire for revenge against this man. Birdie does not feel that justice has been done. The justice of the courts for her is not enough. Eighteen years in prison is not enough. She feels she can only avenge her sister's memory by putting a gun in her handbag, taking the coach to London, meeting him as he comes out of prison and pursuing him down south.

Well what about that emotion of rage I suppose I would use as well, particularly putting it into a female character? Yeah that's an rage I suppose I would use as well, particularly putting it into a female character? Yeah, that's an interesting one. I was listening to the Rees lectures last year. They were delivered by forensic psychiatrist Gwen Atzhead and she talked a little bit about how trauma suffered in early years in boys tend to manifest as an outward rage. So the male would project that rage outwards, often into violent crime. Whereas for women, the rage was internalized

and they would live with that rage. And I think this is certainly the case in Birdie's situation. She's had 18 years of living alongside this anger, this fury and need for revenge. She has imagined that by having a family, she can set it aside or move past it, but she can't. And really from the very first line of the book,

the week I shot a man clean through the head began like any other. We are with her on this radical mission and believe that she is to some extent justified. But it's interesting because you talk about that early trauma in girls or boys. There was a line that stood out to me in reference to your male protagonist, James Maguire, who was in prison.

Show me a crook with a happy youth and I'll show you a pig with wings. Yeah, the more I researched, I mean my original idea was to tell a sunshine man just from Birdie's perspective, just from the female. But the more I read about prisons, I read a lot of first-person accounts of lives banged up, but also the circumstances that led that person to be banged up, not necessarily the crime itself, but the upbringing, the damage done in those early years mentally, emotionally, sometimes physically to these people, that meant that that long shadow of damage was very hard to break free from later in life and is at the root very sadly of a lot of these violent crimes.

And it was, I think it shows the reality of a road to prison. It's set in 1989, which of course resonated with me, but you're younger than me. You know, let me see, what year were you born? 83. Right, so I mean you'd probably don't have that many memories of 1989. How come that period? I don't have that many memories of 89. Memories are funny slippery thing isn't it? Yeah, sure is. I feel like I might have more than I actually do. But the main reason was I wanted to set it before technology and I've been talking

to quite a few authors recently about this and it is a draw for this sort of trend in recent historical fiction, if you like, because the internet is enormously problematic in fiction, in some cases, particularly if you're looking at crimes. So tell me why that is. Well, I mean, how much drama can an author infuse into someone just checking something on their phone? The answers are just at our fingertips.

Sometimes that's just not an exciting story to build. And for Birdie, she had to go off-grid. She had to be able to leave her family and pursue this man unfettered by people spotting her and taking her photograph. Or a digital trail of something. A digital trail. And it's very complicated. And I'm not that technologically savvy at the best of times.

I'm a bit of a Luddite. I like my pen and paper. So it felt like a natural draw to go back to the 80s. I was struck from the get-go with the cigarette smoking, the bacon rolls and using cash. Yes, exactly. Isn't that lovely? Let's talk about the bond, though, between the parental bond, maternal bond between Birdie and her sister Providence. A little bit more about why you use that as the concept that I suppose holds this book together.

The sisterly relationship is such a rich one for authors. I have a sister, I have two daughters, my mom is one of two girls, so we have quite a strong sort of sisterly flavor in our family. But for Birdie, and this taps into some of the listeners who've been getting in touch this morning, Birdie is eight years older than Providence, so as well as having this very strong sisterly bond

and that shared experience, she is also adopting a maternal role with her little sister, and this is complicated further by the fact that Birdie doesn't really know her own mother. She's raised by her grandmother. So she infuses that relationship with Providence into something very intense and very, very protective, which means that later in life when the worst happens, she feels that it is her responsibility if you like to redress the balance. With that and I'm just reading some of the messages that come in that I think play into it as well because there's another very strong figure which is Gamma, the grandmother who takes in both of these young girls.

Here's one from Mags, both my parents were dead by the time I was five. My mother was a grandmother when I was born. Bit of a surprise, my eldest sister was 26, married and with six month old twins. She took me and loved me. I owe all that I am to Anne. I'm 72 now and she's long gone but never forgotten. Another, my brother is 13 years younger and I've always taken care of him since he was a child. And that means that even now that we are older, I still treat him like a child instead of my sibling, but it seems to work for us because we are very close.

But I think what comes across in your book is the grief and loss when there are absent or neglectful parents. Yes, absolutely. And funnily enough, Birdie has absent parents. She doesn't know her mother very well. Her mother fits in and out of her life. She doesn't know who her father is, so she's raised by her grandmother. But also Jimmy Maguire, he knows his parents,

but his father is a tyrant who is in and out of prison. And his mother, while present, is emotionally unavailable to him. So he really doesn't have anybody, so the difference between them is that Birdie has her grandmother, who is able to love her and support her and be that figure in her life of stability, whereas James has no stability at all and therefore is attracted towards Birdie and Providence's set up and enters their lives to damaging effect. But I think that that is a big theme in the book of abandonment, but also of belonging. Abandonment, actually, that could be a good way of describing it. Here's another. My daughter Victoria was 15 years old when her mother died.

She has seven younger brothers already accomplished at looking after them. She stepped up and became their mother in inverted commas. The youngest is now 18. I couldn't have managed without her. She became the family matriarch and still is. She's now 32 and has no children off her own yet. So many stories that are coming in this morning. Why did you call it The Sunshine Man? It's quite a title. Yes, I mean actually my editor came up with The Sunshine Man. Originally the working title was Providence, but that's a slightly problematic word in the sense that the meaning isn't necessarily immediately

clear. And we felt that The Sunshine Man was the right fit for the book. He, as a physical entity in the book, he is this sort of effigy of Birdie and Jimmy's childhood. He's a wooden board, a sort of scarecrow type figure that looms over the fields of their childhood, a bit like the faded optometrist board in the Great Gatsby, this sort of all-seeing eye. But also I think in some ways it can apply to Jimmy Maguire himself in trying to find the light in those dark places in our experiences and in our childhoods. So the Sunshine Man sort of ties everything together thematically. You had, you know, we often hear from authors about the horror of the second novel. Tell me your story with that.

Yes, it was a horror. So The Sunshine Man is the second book that I've written under my real name. But I have written other books before under pen names. So when it came to writing a follow up to The Lamplighters, which is the book I had out in 2021, I sort of thought I can do this writing thing. I've done it before. If the book is difficult, I'll just keep working. It will come together. And I spent three years writing a completely different project that just never came together. I wrote it five different ways. It must have been over a million words. When do you know it's not coming together?

When you're unhappy, I think. But surely, I mean, I don't know, I've never written a book, but I would imagine there's a sense of unhappiness the whole way through writing a book, or am I wrong? I don't know. You're not wrong at all. You're not wrong. You're spot on. Yes, there is. But also this real need to sort of get it out. And I think I couldn't have pulled the plug on this other book before I did, because I needed to know that I had exhausted all possible avenues and tried as hard as I possibly could have, which I did. But it did get to the point where I just thought, I'm not happy writing this book. It's affecting me. It's making me feel

down. My husband said to me, why don't you write something that makes you feel good? And that was just like the cloud parted. And I thought, yeah, I don't you write something that makes you feel good? And that was just like the cloud parted and I thought, yeah, I don't have to struggle with this anymore. And even though it was a very difficult decision to make, and it felt like a horrible breakup with a toxic ex-boyfriend, it did actually feel enormously empowering and like a really positive step. And is that a manuscript or something, a file, because you said you love pen and paper, in a drawer somewhere never to see the light of day again? Or is it like, maybe there's something still there? The manuscript is in a drawer where it remains to this day. And if I were to get it out tomorrow, I would not know

what to do with it still. So possibly at some point in the future, the characters from it might walk into another novel. But as for reworking that material, probably not. So what do you think will follow The Sunshine Man? Arrest. I would love to return to The Unsolved Mystery. That really appeals to me, so I think I will go back to that, but I am slightly cautious about diving into something new after what happened last time but soon because writing is in me and it's got to come out. Emma Stonix thank you very much The Sunshine Man is

out now thank you for all your messages coming in as well. Do you join me again tomorrow? I'll be talking to the author Leanne Child about her new novel The Trad Wife Secret and discussing the trad wife, trad wife even, phenomenon and her and traditional housewife influencer, Charlie Gray. I do hope you'll join me for that and I will continue reading your messages that came in at 84844, Woman's Hour here tomorrow 10am. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4 and the History Podcast. We're not some funny people in our family. Join us again next time. I mean that's all quite a weird kind of story, you know. And so we call it like the curse of this memoir.

An eight-part podcast about how the past lives on inside us. I wonder how you feel after all of this. Even when we try to ignore it. All of the bombs will detonate sooner or later. Listen to Half-Life on BBC Sounds.