Woman's Hour - Synthetic embryos, Suzie Fletcher, Eco-anxiety, Lynzy Billing

Episode Date: June 15, 2023

Scientists have created synthetic human embryos using stem cells that sidestep the need for eggs or sperm. The news was presented yesterday at the International Society for Stem Cell Research’s annual meeting and the full details will be published at a later date. This could have a real impact on understanding IVF and early miscarriages. Krupa speaks to the Guardian journalist who broke the story, Hannah Devlin and Dr Helen O'Neill a lecturer and molecular geneticist at the Institute for Women’s Health at University College London.A growing number of people are experiencing what psychiatrists have labelled eco-anxiety or eco-grief, an overwhelming sense of hopeless and doom due to the current climate situation. So what exactly is the impact on people and how can we turn the tables and help people to feel more hopeful about the environment? Krupa is joined by climate scientist turned campaigner Jen Newall from the Climate Majority Project, and Judy Ling Wong CBE, President of the Black Environment Network. Lynzy Billing, an Afghan-Pakistani journalist has been investigating how her family were killed in Afghanistan's Civil War. She has made an animated short film ‘The Night Doctrine’ about her journey to discover the truth of what happened when she was just two years old. The film has had its debut at this year's Tribeca Film Festival in New York City. She joins Krupa to share her story.Suzie Fletcher, has been the BBC's The Repair Shop's resident leatherworker and master saddler since 2017. She has now released her memoir 'The Sun Over The Mountains' which explores her career, life in America, as well as giving an honest and intimate account of her marriage with her late husband. Suzie joins Krupa to discuss her abusive relationship.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Andrew Garrett

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bhatti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now, if you managed to spot this morning's Guardian, you may have seen the headline, synthetic human embryos created in groundbreaking advance. We're going to go right back to basics about how this model embryo might work and what this development means for the future of fertility. Hannah Devlin, the Guardian science correspondent who wrote the piece, and Dr Helen O'Neill from the University College London will join me.

For those of you who are fans of the BBC's Repair Shop, you'll be pleased to hear that we are chatting to master saddler and leather expert Susie Fletcher about her new memoir. And for those who haven't seen the programme, it is a show that follows the journey of family heirlooms with sentimental value as they are brought back to life by experts in the trade. Susie has repaired some extraordinary things. We want to know what you've repaired and what you are most proud of repairing or what you've tried to repair that's gone terribly wrong equally what is in that cupboard waiting to be repaired and if you've a question for Susie about how to look after your leather do try and send that over to us too Alison has done just that on Twitter and says I managed to put new springs in an armchair and

cover them with new upholstery it took me ages but I am so proud of it whenever I see it. And I saved so much money. The Library of Things was a great resource as I could borrow a staple gun for the day for just two pounds. It is such a good feeling when a repair goes right, isn't it? You can text the programme. That number is 84844. Over on social media, you'll find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. And you can email us through our website. Or you can send us a WhatsApp message or an audio note using the number 03700 100 444.

Data charges may apply, so you might want to use your Wi-Fi if you can. All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website. Also, night raids have been used for decades to kill or capture insurgents during decades of conflict in Afghanistan. They've long raised controversy because they frequently harm civilians. Last month, I saw the launch of an inquiry into allegations of unlawful killings

by UK special forces inside Afghanistan. And that inquiry will look specifically at night raids carried out by UK special forces between 2010 and 2013. Similarly, US-backed night raids are well documented to have caused countless Afghan families an indescribable trauma. So we're going to speak to a journalist who lost her mother and sister in one such raid. But first, the changing reality of our environment is something we are faced with on a

daily basis with new reports, new articles, new first-hand accounts of how climate change is impacting communities around the world. Just last week alone, we saw those wildfires in Canada leading to some of the worst pollution levels in cities like New York. And as smoke filled those skies, therapists there said that they saw a surge in the number of people with what is being called eco-anxiety, that is a chronic fear of environmental doom. A recent study by Bath University spoke to 10,000 young people across 25 countries. And what they found was that they were all worried about climate change

and more than 45% said their negative feelings around the issue impacted their daily lives. But it's not just young people who are feeling this. Psychiatrists and the British Medical Journal have labelled this feeling eco-anxiety, and although it's not yet considered a diagnosable condition, there is no doubt among experts of its negative impact. So we're going to explore this a bit more with the help of two experts who have been working in this field. Jen Newell is a climate scientist turned campaigner from the Climate Majority Project who herself has struggled with her mental health due to the environment. And Judy Ling Wong is the president of the Black Environment

Network, which she founded more than 30 years ago. Welcome to you both. Hello there. Hi. Jen, if I could start with you. You are now involved in the Climate Majority Project which we'll hear about in a moment but you were studying for a PhD in climate science. How did you get to that point? Wow, yeah. Hello and thank you for inviting me to be part of this really important conversation and my journey here is probably a book in itself but um yeah getting into climate science I've always been kind of fascinated connected with and uh like local to kind of mountains and wild landscapes here in Scotland um and it's always been something that I have felt passionately for and felt connected to. So it was quite a natural progression to feed my curiosity

about the stories which the landscapes and the rocks hold and can teach us in particular around the climate crisis, what we can learn from Earth's past in order to take the best possible action and work with nature for our very survival. So nature is clearly in your veins and the mental health difficulties like anxiety, like depression that are being experienced all around the world by people about the state of the environment. It's being called eco-anxiety, but you think it should be called eco-grief. Why is that? Yeah, I do think that the framing and the narrative and language that we use is really important. But in particular, because like anxiety is understood as being a response of fear and fear, like my therapist described it as

false eventualities appearing real however there is like absolutely nothing that's not real about the reality of the the climate like the climate crisis we know what to like we know what's coming our way uh we know uh just how how difficult that journey is going to be um and grief is a valid response to a real situation um so i do think it's really important that uh we we really call this what it is um and grief i think as well is is much more of a an understood um uh yeah an understood um kind of condition um and we even have that you know that we understand the seven stages of grief so by framing it in the context of it being grief that is driven by the heartbreak of the reality of climate breakdown as eco grief we actually have much more tools um to to kind of help supporters and and manage it as well let me bring in judy ling wong president of the black environment network who has

well the three decades of experience that we can tap into now judy first of all what do you think of that idea that we should be calling it eco-grieve proposed there by Jen? Well, it's very real. We all grieve about the death and the damage and the expected endangered species completely going out of existence. But I think what is interesting is what to do about it. You know, when the Institute of Psychiatry published a special issue on climate anxiety, one of the papers pointed out is that if you can do something about it, if you feel part of the movement to change things or to stabilize things, then you feel much better. And also, you know, at the moment, the government is trying to reach net zero by 2050 and all that, and they're committed to creating 2 million new green jobs now if young people and activists think about this if you have a green job you're actually dedicating your entire working life to building a green sustainable future and that has a huge effect on your

psychology of what you're doing with your days, what you're doing for the whole of society, not just yourself, and all the things you love about nature and people. So much has changed in your three decades working in this sector. And I want to kind of ask you a personal question about how you feel when you hear and see so many young people who are impacted by eco-anxiety. I have tremendous compassion for them because what a mess we have left the world in, our generation and the generation before.

Of course, you know, the science is so advanced now. Very much in the past, the scientists would say, yes, we think perhaps, we perhaps have this modern, so now we have the exact science. So it is an absolutely different ballgame. We actually know what to do now. It is about getting on with it. And the young people are the furthest ahead in this. They can see the future as theirs and they're impassioned to do something about it. You founded the Black Environment Network back in 1987 and you've touched on it a bit there but how much has really changed in your opinion a lot the entire attitude you know in 1987 the nature conservation movement which dominated

all nature concerns was only about nature so if you were not interested in volunteering for nature they were not interested in your black or white so when we brought the idea of the integration of minorities into the movement forward we brought forward something very very important that's changed the paradigm of the conservation movement instead of just people for nature it's a two-way street people for nature and nature for people why was it important for you to bring in minority groups specifically? Because they are a huge force. We might be 14%, but in our cities, look at London, 39%. Can you call that a minority?

So we should have a huge role to play. If we're excluded, we become a vast missing contribution. I know you've been forging ahead with that positive force for a number of years. And it's something that you, Jenna, are also trying to do in your work in your writing you wrote an article with BBC Scotland where you were interviewed about your own experiences that article is still over on our website as well if people do want to have a read but you received a tremendous response didn't you? Yeah, an overwhelming response, one which was both heartwarming and

heartbreaking in equal measures, like just the sheer number of people who really resonated and felt heard, felt their feelings validated essentially by me sharing my story, which ultimately, at the time when I was really struggling with eco-grief, I didn't understand that it was exactly that. It was a lot of feelings, hurt, heartbreak that was paralyzing. And really, ultimately, I felt myself in a position where this was not a world that I wanted to be a part of and that's a really scary place to be especially when you don't understand those those feelings um and so yeah the it was really like brilliant to be able to share my story um and and by sharing my story like which so many people relate to in one way or another, like I hope that it really helps people to see that they are not alone, to understand and perhaps start to begin to be able to process those feelings with the truth of where they come from and see that they are not alone, but in fact part of the majority. And once we feel part of a climate majority,

it's only going to strengthen our collective action. But yeah, that response, both in the numbers, but also the complete range of different people who reached out and kind of thanked us for sharing the story, like heartwarming and heartbreaking at the same time to actually realise that so many people have clearly been suffering in silence, have been struggling in a similar way to what I expressed in silence

and without that kind of support and understanding, perhaps, of where it comes from, without people around them to be able to talk about it and begin to process those feelings. And the thing that I would really highlight is that, you know, we talk so much about it affecting, you know, the climate emergency and just the general state of today's society, right? Like having such a negative impact on the mental health of the youth.

But what really struck me was how many diverse people from different backgrounds, different ages, like the number of, like, without being too stereotypical, like middle-class white males, like middle-aged males um who who reached out um having felt some resonance to what I was sharing yeah it really did surprise me and and definitely highlights a need for more of these conversations and and support across the board that this isn't actually just something that is um you know the youth. I had grandparents reaching out too. Well, I want to pick up on that with you, Judy.

You yourself, have you, I mean, you come across as this incredibly positive force, Judy, I have to say, it's the first time I'm meeting you. But have you ever felt that dread, that eco-anxiety that we are talking about? Well, I'm driven by anxiety and I'm driven by grief. And as an ethnic minority, you know, all ethnic minorities carry a huge burden, a much greater burden, because we actually relate to friends and families and colleagues in our countries of heritage. impacting on our person. But I'm enormously positive because there are actually clear things to do, like getting rid of fossil fuels and going to renewable energies, not only changing everything, but for example, merging with the cost of living issue by giving us ultimately the cheapest historical energy we have ever seen when we finally get there.

So there are huge positive things to look forward to, but we must fight for these things. And at the moment with Great Green Week, you have a kind of showcase of all the things you can do. You can get into the detail and just get in there. You're, like I said, this driven force, but lots of calls for action on your part. Is there reason to be hopeful, Judy? Yes, because I think that whatever we are saying,

I must say that with all news programmes, the bad news comes first. But there's lots of good news and people on the move who are going to change this and I'm sure we can do this. Same to you, Jen. Yeah, I do hold an awful lot of hope and can see a very positive future ahead of us and a big part of that is the this kind of the majority really awakening to itself like people who have been you know there's multiple polls have shown that the majority of the uk population are concerned about climate change do feel that they have been consistently let down by leadership in this area um and yeah seeing that realization and people you know holding these conversations and beginning

to speak with each other realize that we we are the majority and that there is so much we can do together and that by working together you know beyond like going well beyond simply like recycling or green consumerism. Like we're also very truthful, like beginning to be truthful with the reality, the kind of structures of society that have led us to this point and are actually barriers to the change that we so desperately need to see. Like the more of us that come together in those conversations that are truthful and hold each other not only in our

action but also in our feelings like creating those safe spaces for us to be together and realize our collective power yeah absolutely thank you so much jen newell from the climate majority project and judy ling wong a president of the black environment network for your thoughts there on the subject of climate anxiety and on the subject of repairing items that you are proud of or things that you'd like to repair. Lots of you have been sending in questions for our guests towards the end of the programme, Susie Fletcher,

on how to look after your leather, but also you've been sending in your triumphs when it comes to repairing things. We've had this message that says, I've repaired my tote bag with visible mending, she says. I got a comment on the tube last week about just how funky it looks. Well done you. And this one from David who writes,

a cousin was said to have been in the UK, the first UK woman into Berlin in World War II. She brought back a leather briefcase that has a dubious history. I used it throughout the school and still plan to have it repaired. Thank you for your message, David. Do keep them coming in and we'll try and put as many of them to Susie as we can towards the end of the programme. Lindsay Billing is an Afghan Pakistani investigative journalist and she's been reporting on Afghanistan since 2019. The Night Doctrine is a short animated film illustrating her journey to find out how her

family were killed in Afghanistan during the civil war of 1989 to 1992. That was won by the Afghan Mujahideen when she was just two years old and how that led to a four-year investigation involving hundreds of interviews. The film has had its debut at this year's Tribeca Film Festival in New York City. And Lindsay joins me now from New York. Thanks for getting up so early for us, Lindsay. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This film is deeply rooted in your personal story and your journey to find out what happened to your family.

Tell us what you knew about your family before you set out on this journey yes so i um i was adopted by a british family and um i moved i went from pakistan to then on to israel with them um so i didn't have i didn't have much information when I was growing up. I had a few tokens from the past, and I started in my early 20s realizing that it was something that I wanted to look into more. I wanted to look into my background and my family, and I wanted to see if I could reconnect with relatives in Afghanistan. And that really was the initial reason that I went back to Afghanistan in 2019. While I was a journalist, I wasn't going there for a story.

I was going there to kind of answer some questions for myself. So that really took me back to Afghanistan to meet with a distant relative there in Nangarhar province in the east. So you had very few bits of information to go upon, but really starting from near zero, you emerged with a wealth of information because this story ended up being much bigger than you had ever imagined. Yeah, it was in a district in Nangarhar province where I had found out that my biological mother and sister had been killed. I met another woman and she was a widow and she told me the story of a night raid that had killed her only two children. And there was this kind of strange, eerie familiarity with it because my sister and mother had been killed in the same district that her sons had been killed in.

But we're talking decades later a different war um but there was a connection with the fact that i didn't have answers and and she also didn't have answers but she kind of became the driving force behind looking into these units um that had targeted her sons that night because i felt this huge responsibility to go to government officials and provincial officials on her behalf and ask why her sons had been targeted and who were the soldiers doing these operations and why were they targeting people in remote villages in rural Afghanistan and leaving people like this woman, Muzala, without answers. And so after speaking with her, it went on, as you say, for years, hundreds of interviews with families that had had similar loss.

Because it's important to stress for our listeners who may or may not know much about Afghanistan that nightmarish tactics that have been used throughout Afghanistan's history of conflict in recent decades, aren't they? Yes, exactly. history of conflict in recent decades aren't they yes exactly it's uh but it's but there's different um different kinds of night raids even from the u.s military and their night raids through to the ones that i was looking at for for this film and and for the investigation which the film is based on. And these are obviously CIA-backed night raids and this idea of the CIA partnering with local forces

and working with local forces to conduct their own counterterrorism night raids alongside the US military's ones. So lots of different players and actors throughout it all. Yes, and I know that you did approach the CIA for a response and they said that the zero units have been the target of a systematic propaganda campaign designed to discredit them because of the threat they posed to Taliban rule, that from a CIA spokesperson. You also approached the US Defense Department

who did not respond to your questions. But of course, the night raids during that time have been well documented by charities like Human Rights Watch and other journalists as well. You managed to speak to people who to speak to Afghans who have been involved in such night raids where they go and try and target people who they believe are insurgents? Yes, so this film that's premiering at Tribeca, The Night Doctrine, is based on my investigation, which came out in December called The Night Raids. And for that story, I spoke to more than 350 people, from government officials to military, to obviously survivors, eyewitnesses, families of victims on the ground through visiting, we visited more than 30 raid sites. And a big part of that story and why I wanted to do it was that I wanted to have a 360 degree of people that I spoke to. And that became really important that I needed to speak

to the soldiers conducting the operations. So I spent six months trying to find soldiers from inside these units that I was focused on, the zero units, to speak to. And when I started this, they were still going out on operations almost every other night. So they would tell me we went on an operation in this district or this area, and then I would go and investigate it the following day. So this wasn't looking at a US or UK history in Afghanistan. You know, we're not talking about 2012 and looking back at something that's finished. And we were documenting in live time operations that were going wrong and that were targeting civilians and for which there still is no accountability.

And what did these young men say to you when you did manage to get through to them? It was very interesting the kind of the way we spoke because it was over years right and and we kind of, in the beginning, they were quite hesitant to talk to me. They weren't quite sure why I was so interested to hear their perspective. And I think after a few meetings, I had gained their trust,

and they realized that I did really want to hear about them, and I wanted to hear about their background and why they joined these units and how they felt when civilians were being killed on these operations. And it's an interesting one because their background plays a big role. One of them joined the units

because of his economic situation. And at the time the salaries of the zero units were much higher than a regular Afghan army, than the regular Afghan army. But they are also there's this feeling of the Afghan soldiers are targeting their own countrymen. So there's a feeling of remorse that kind of grew over time that they shared with me about when they know they were getting it wrong and how they felt about that. It's just very different from an American counterpart, I believe, and how they would feel because it's not their country and it's not their fellow Afghans. Yeah. And what was interesting in the animation, not to give too much away, was that the young

men that you spoke to when the Taliban came back to power in 2021, they were two of many who were left behind by the Americans when they were trying to flee and they still remain inside Afghanistan. I want to talk about your journey and come back to that because whilst you were seeking information about your family, this turned into a bigger story as we've discussed but in terms of you and your journey did you or have you gotten any closure or any further information as to what happened to your to your family yeah i think um i mean i've i i think i've learned over the last few years been uh through the research and investigation I've done personally

what happened really with with my sister and mother less so about my father who was killed later in fighting but I think that the whole process of this of speaking to hundreds of people and and to be honest there are hundreds more, right? Everyone I meet is someone else. If I went to another village, I would meet someone else who had witnessed a night raid. But I think the whole process has been, probably helped me to realize some feelings that I'd boxed away for a while. And I don't think, I think I did get a level of closure that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise. But I did feel that a lot through speaking to the soldiers and one of them in particular. There's something about speaking to Basir

and feeling his remorse that really helped me kind of feel a bit of closure with the whole thing. So that's been very interesting interesting i think it was important because while he he obviously didn't kill my family he's he's going on the operations that do kill people's family members so it's really powerful um on to the animation specifically why did you choose animation because there is a story behind this, isn't there? Yeah, I mean, we spent a long time filming on the ground. And it was never, I don't think the idea was to go with animation initially. The directors, Almudena Torral and Mauricio Rodriguez,

was that we kind of decided to go with animation just because of the situation at the time which was obviously come August 2021 the international troops left and suddenly the soldiers who we'd been speaking to and filming over the years were facing new risks and new threats because the men that they were targeting had now moved into government. So it was a decision for protection to go with animation rather than to show their faces. But I think as well there's something that you can do with animation which is really special, especially when it comes to a kind of heavier reporting or investigative reporting

project trying to really help people trying to synthesize a huge amount of information I think animation really helps us to do that I certainly find it hugely moving watching it in an animated form and I wasn't aware it was an animation until I pressed play so I certainly agree with you on that. I know that you are recently back from Afghanistan just a couple of weeks ago. Lots of talk about how life has changed for women since the Taliban came to power

with those limitations on their learning, their access to education and work. How do you see it in terms of life for women there at the moment? Well, there's much to comment on on life at the moment but in terms for women it's uh uh it's a really dire state of affairs um there doesn't you know during my last trip which was last week now um not much has changed than a few months earlier obviously in december and a new ban came in against women working with ngos as well um so they're either working from home now they can't go into the office or they or they're not working at all um in terms of

education nothing has changed there's been a lot lot of talk from senior officials about how they will be what the decision will be or whether schools will open but this is a rhetoric that we hear on repeat with not much action behind it and meanwhile obviously women and girls are just waiting and a lot of them are just waiting at home um to see if they are going to be able to go back to school or university or work so yeah i think it's something they definitely need to address there's no getting around any other way than uh than addressing it right now yeah thank you so much for your time lindsey billing there the journalist behind the animated documentary the night doctrine and lindsey just before i let you go how can people watch your Lindsay Billing there, the journalist behind the animated documentary, The Night Doctrine.

And Lindsay, just before I let you go, how can people watch your documentary? So the documentary has one more screening this Saturday at Tribeca, and then it will be online at ProPublica, which is where the story is as well. The story is called The Night Maids and the documentary is called The Night Doctrine. So you'll find it there. Thank you so much for spending some of your very early morning with us here on Woman's Hour, Lindsay. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long

has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Lots of you have been getting in touch in reaction to our earlier conversation about eco-anxiety. Thank you for your messages. This one says, climate grief is right. My 18-year-old son asked me yesterday if I honestly thought we would crack the climate crisis.

What could I say? My heart sank. I said, we don't have a choice, which was a cop-out. I said, you need to talk about it and get others to act. But I felt terrible putting this burden on someone about to set out on his journey into adulthood. And I worry for his mental health. Another one says, I'm 32. I suffer from eco-grief. What upsets me most is the constant excess we live in. I recently had a baby and we

were gifted 13 baby blankets and that number goes to 21 if i include the baby sleeping bags and swaddles thank you for your message and this one says i'm one of those middle-aged white men mentioned in the eco anxiety piece i switched career paths to work for a conservation ngo and to do something i truly believe in 12 years down the line i feel the hope for a conservation NGO and to do something I truly believe in. 12 years down the line, I feel the hope for a positive future diminishing almost daily. Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts with us there.

It's been called a groundbreaking moment. Scientists have created synthetic human embryos using stem cells that sidesteps the need for eggs or sperm. The news was presented yesterday at the International Society for Stem Cell Researchers annual meeting and the full details will be published at a later date.

This could have a real impact on how we understand IVF and early miscarriages. Well, this morning we wanted to take things right back to basics to understand what this development means and what further questions it could lead to. Earlier I spoke to the Guardian journalist who broke the story, Hannah Devlin, and Dr Helen O'Neill, a lecturer and molecular geneticist at the Institute for Women's Health at University College London. I began by asking Hannah what these model embryos are. Yeah, so these are structures that scientists have grown in the lab and rather than the process that you use for getting a normal embryo through IVF for example where you start with an egg,

fertilise it with the sperm and then it starts to divide and grow, these are model embryos that are grown from stem cells. So in this case the team started with embryonic stem cells, so the cells that an embryo begins to grow from in nature. And then without any need for sperm or eggs or fertilisation, they managed to cultivate these in such a way that they start turning into a range of different cell types that you see in the very earliest stages of human development. Dr O'Neill, how close are these embryos, these model embryos, to a human embryo? This research really does highlight amazing strides within the field of embryonic research, but I haven't actually seen the publication as it hasn't been published this was results that have been presented at a an international scientific conference and so

without reading the paper I wouldn't say how close they are however when they are forming individual structures like embryos then we can assume that they are definitely the how they have been derived is very different to a human embryo, but potentially how they are developing is quite similar. But more importantly, the mechanisms by which those cellular divisions are happening are possibly mimicking a human embryo quite closely. One thing I've taken away from your article, Hannah, is that these model embryos do not have a heartbeat, do not have a brain. So my question to you, Dr. O'Neill, is when is an embryo an embryo? So an embryo is an embryo as soon as fertilization

occurs. That means as soon as a sperm has fertilized with an egg, that fusion, all of a sudden becomes a single-celled entity and it's a it's a zygote and from that moment on it's an it's an embryo and it starts to divide from one cell to two to four to eight and continues to divide up until a blastocyst and that's typically the stage that we would be most um familiar with within the IVF setting so you'd have the sperm and the egg you'd fertilize it and those would be cultured within the IVF lab up until around day five, which is a blastocyst stage. The later stages are the ones, are the stages we're less familiar with in terms of our understanding and in terms of being able to model. So this is why this is from the earliest stage, we're going to be seeing some of those similarities within this

created embryo, but we will possibly be able to see much later in terms of embryonic development than we're currently able to within the current lab. Many women go for scans at six weeks and they can often find a heartbeat. In this case, the model embryo would not be able to offer that. That's what i'm trying to get towards that not having a heartbeat does that take away from its potential to offer you scientific information or whatever else you might be seeking i think that classification that has been given is more to validate how early these structures are and when we use distinctions like this doesn't have a heartbeat, this doesn't have a brain, it's more so to, I guess, assuage the fears of the ethical arguments

of does it have some form of lifelike or human-like ability? And I think there's less of a classification around the heartbeat to say, is it viable? Although we don't yet know whether these structures would be viable. Then to actually say it doesn't have a heartbeat and therefore it's not going to be something that resembles an early embryo. And we will get on to the ethical debates as well. Hannah, what could this development mean? Yeah, I was just going to jump in there too and add to Helen's point, which is that my understanding from the team, and as she said, these are not, you know, formally published findings yet. So we're taking it at face value what the team have presented at the conference.

But based on what they've described, these embryos correspond to roughly 14 days of development, which if you had a natural human embryo, there would not be a heartbeat at that stage. So it's not that they definitely lack the potential to go on to have that. It's that they were not cultivated to that stage, or that perhaps they stopped developing at that stage. What's the purpose of creating these synthetic embryos? So the motivation for creating these synthetic embryos is very much to understand the earliest stages of human development. And there are lots of questions that you might want to ask about what happens to an embryo step by step, day by day as it's developing. But at the moment it's very hard for scientists to get insights into the period

beyond 14 days, because it's illegal in the UK and many of the countries to cultivate natural embryos in the lab beyond that point. And so there's this sort of black box window after 14 days, but before you're able to pick up embryos on scans, for example, in the clinic and able to follow them as they develop in for example in the clinic and able to follow them um you know as they're developing the womb so um it's really to gain insights into this um critical window of development and i should just add there there's um definitely no clinical applications on the horizon at any time um in the foreseeable future and it would also not be within the UK law to use these embryo models in the clinical to implant them into a patient. And Hannah this kind of research it's already

started in mice and monkeys as they understand it how has that helped us inform this next stage of that research? I mean I think a key thing has been creating systems that can sustain these model embryos for a longer period. And Helen touched on that before, just saying that until recently, this wasn't really an issue because the embryos that people were developing or the model embryos that people were developing in labs would only last for five days, they'd be sort of flat discs of cells. And it was only when scientists began to have some success with these systems that allowed cells to kind of develop into three dimensional structures. So, which is not the way traditionally biologists have worked, that this has become, you know, more of an issue and advanced. And so I think those labs that did the work with mice are the ones that are now moving the same, very similar systems into creating these model human embryos. And I think what the animal experiments can also do is help you understand what these things are, because that's still a really open question.

So far, they haven't been developed to kind of an advanced stage, but we don't yet know whether these things kind of theoretically have the potential to develop into a living animal or even a baby. And that's, you know, that's clearly not what the scientists are aiming to do, but with the animal experiments,

they can try and understand that and try and at least understand what they are. So with the mouse experiments, they did try and implant these embryos. And none of those tests actually gave rise to a pregnancy or a live animal. And with the monkeys, they did the same. And there was a very brief window of pregnancy, but they didn't continue developing. So that suggests that although they might look identical, there could be some significant differences that stop them developing further. And at the moment, it's not clear whether that's a kind of technical barrier or whether there's some fundamental biology that's missing that would allow them to keep developing.

And while scientists are not aiming to have this model embryo turn into a human baby, but it does raise potential ethical concerns, Helen, doesn't it? Because if we don't have those answers, that means there is potential for it to actually happen, for this embryo to result in a human birth. And for many people, that is concerning. There are huge legal frameworks that would prevent any of these structures ever being implanted or transferred for implantation to a woman that would lead to a pregnancy.

So I don't think there's any concerns that this would ever result in a pregnancy in the absence of true ethical discussion and legal compliance. So I don't think there's fears among the scientific community about, or even the public, I don't think there should be any fears in any community. But you can understand when they see a headline like we're seeing this morning, that those who aren't in the know about the science behind this might think, well, wait, the is is running away with itself here is this ethically right? I think when you look at the current state of the world one in six individuals are infertile over eight million babies have been born to IVF and yet in the last 40 years since IVF was first discovered essentially or applied, the success rates

really unsignificantly changed. So we really haven't seen too much of an improvement despite 40 years of research and work on IVF. So to me, this offers optimism that we may finally get to terms with the understandings of the working of an embryo to better improve potentially IVF outcomes, to reduce or at least understand the earliest forms of pregnancy loss. And to me, I think as a scientist, when I do understand the limitations of IVF and certainly the limitations of our research in understanding early human embryo development, this offers true hope to better understanding so that we can finally circumvent or at least maybe reduce some of those early terminations of an embryo's development.

And I can certainly hear your strong arguments for this, but within the scientific community, is there conflict there? There's always going to be conflict when it comes to something that invokes any ethical arguments and I strongly feel that the more somebody understands about the true applications for this from a scientific perspective and even down the line from a clinical perspective the less opposed they are to this because at the end of the day as a scientific community we strive to understand more and anything that offers an opportunity to understand more about the things that we really cannot study

for any reason be it ethical or technical this is a true opportunity. Returning to the legislative framework Hannah what is what is being done to ensure that that legal framework catches up because that feels like the next step. Yeah I mean I i think it's good to um just jump in as well to say that um you know whilst obviously there's a sort of spectrum among scientists of how cautious or sort of um you know how far they want to push this research i think there is a consensus in the community that they want to have formal guidelines and boundaries because it's not in anyone's interest for this to be a sort of free-for-all situation where you know one lab is being cautious and responsible and another lab can potentially

you know take things further along so there are quite advanced discussions definitely in the UK science community around what guidelines should cover for this research in the absence of there being formal legislation at this point. Our thanks there to Hannah Devlin and Dr Helen O'Neill for their expertise. You may be familiar with our next guest from the BBC's Repair Shop. Susie Fletcher has been the show's resident leather worker and master saddler since 2017 and has become a fan favourite of the programme. But now Susie has taken her hand to something else with the release of her memoir, The Sun Over the Mountains. The book explores her career, life in America, as well as an honest and intimate account of her marriage to her late husband.

Susie joins me now in the studio to discuss. Good morning. Good morning very good to have you here. First of all for those of us who don't know much about what a master saddler is and does please explain. Well in a nutshell basically my training was that I'm able to make saddles and bridles and harness for every discipline within the equestrian world and it's something I've been involved with almost 50 years now, and never a day goes by where I think I don't enjoy my days. Which is wonderful to hear. It's a deep rooted passion, isn't it? Because in your book, you talk about growing up as a self-proclaimed tomboy. You've really had to break some boundaries, break the mould of what society expected of you growing up.

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? In today's world, we wouldn't imagine that you wouldn't be allowed to follow a passion. But in the 70s, my industry was very much male-dominated. Women generally were bridal makers and not saddle makers. But my goal was to become a designer and maker of saddles. And I had a wonderful mentor in Ken Langford the master saddler who I first learned to train under and he said well let's do this and I was I was there with a few other women sort of being the first women to come master saddlers. And was that that must have come with its own challenges I mean it really needed a belief from your your master saddler to actually get to that

to that point. Well it's really weird because I'm looking back at it and I don't think I was ever cognisant of the fact that I was breaking new ground. It was just that I had this drive and I was going to do it. And so I just went for it. You talked about your first pony, Jester. But not just a first pony, a pony that really kept you grounded in your youth. Explain that to us. Well, I think I was a very awkward child. I didn't have a lot of self-confidence and I was left very much to my own devices. But I had this deep rooted love of horses. And I was in this privileged

position to have a horse to ride. And eventually he became mine through my grandparents generous offer to buy him for me but it came with rules and that was I had to get a job so although I was at 13 years of age having to get a job to pay for my pony and therein starts the beginning of this wonderful lesson I had to get a job I had to cycle to do him in the morning and at night after school I wasn't allowed to let my school suffer, but I wasn't technically very good at school. But it kept my self-esteem, you know, nourished. And I felt, you know, very happy when I was on my pony. And it was one of the things that really helped me emotionally. And so the

power of the horse, the power of animals is something that's remained with me throughout my life. And you do share that you have had dyslexia at school. And this was a massive part of giving you a focus. Well, yes, because I think if I hadn't been artistic and had this outlet of love of nature and animals, I would have really suffered emotionally. Because in those days, you know, if you weren't academic academic you sort of felt really not terribly good about yourself and of course we didn't know about dyslexia back then and it was just I wasn't academic I wasn't very bright so I grew up thinking that I wasn't terribly bright and I think that was quite quite a shame but I did have the focus of the love of horses at least I had

that outlet. You found your calling in many ways. So from 13 let's fast forward to your 30s because that is when you moved to Colorado in the US. Yeah. Why? Well I've always had that wanderlust in me and and I'm really curious. I love learning about other countries. I love learning about other people and because of my skills as a saddler I can go anywhere in the world and I will find work and it was through a series of events I ended up in Colorado but I was only going to be there for two years. And then you spent what was it over 20, 22 years and that is because you met your late husband Rob there weeks after moving to America quite a whirlwind you call him a bad boy and and on that the book focuses a great deal on

your marriage which you've described in your own words at times as abusive dysfunction and at one point you call it domestic hell can you explain that journey to us because many will be listening saying well if it's been abusive if it's been dysfunctional why stay but obviously leaving is is often easier said than done but there are reasons you have chosen to stay in what has been a volatile marriage. Yes, and I can only talk about my experiences and there are a lot of different levels to what was going on. But I saw the good man, but he unfortunately had some demons that came through trauma as a young man. So I had an understanding as to why he had these tendencies to be really volatile. It was always under the surface and he had these triggers and I learned what these triggers could

be. And when things were calm, we would have those moments of being able to talk about what had happened. So I felt like we were always making progress, albeit slow, very slow. But I loved him and it was an unconditional love. And that's just how I am. It's just who I am. And whether it was the right or wrong thing to do is irrespective. It's what I chose to do because it was the circumstances that I was in. And as you said, you know, some people might be listening saying, well, you know, why stay? How can you stay? You're putting in all the effort to better understand him, work on yourself. Why was it so important for you to share these intimate details about your marriage? I felt if I was going to take up this opportunity, I was going to be brutally honest.

We all have struggles in life and some of them are very, very difficult. The ups and downs of life are what I relish about life and the harder things are, the more I learn from them. And I feel that here I am in my 60s, I've had a very full life and I look forward to the future as well because it's all about experimenting and experiencing different things and learning and growing from them. And I try to embrace those opportunities rather than run away from them. You write rather movingly at the end or towards the end of your book about when Rob passed away in 2013. And you write that you have no regrets despite the relationship being particularly difficult to navigate at times and in fact you say it was a privilege to be with him at the end when he passed away but equally that you were able to breathe again can you explain that to us?

Yes through all the ups and downs that we'd had we'd come to this you know maybe dysfunctional marriage but it was working and then when he got that diagnosis I knew instantly my role was going to be to give him whatever he needed it didn't matter what he wanted he was on borrowed time I'd lost my father to cancer and I know how important it is to be there as the support system and the carer and it really was a privilege and I just held it together until the very end and then it was like afterwards I remember stepping outside the back door and looking at this vast expanse of the Colorado Eastern Plains and just going, now I can relax and now I can breathe.

And now this is the next part of this wonderful journey of life. And in that next wonderful journey of life came the repair shop. You say in many ways it saved you. Yes, because I think I felt that I ought to just take things quiet when I came back to the UK and just, you know, recharge my batteries. However, I was just swept up in this new project and surrounded by lovely people, including my brother, Steve. He's also on the show. Yes, a very safe environment. It was a project where we were all learning and growing together.

And that helped me just focus on something really positive and just allowed me to gradually relax. Because once your body's been under a lot of stress for a great deal of time, it's cellular, that stress, and you don't just suddenly relax. It for a great deal of time. It's cellular, that stress, and you don't just suddenly relax. It takes a great deal of time. And so that's been a huge healing. Something you also discuss in the book is the impact and the connection that you've had towards certain items. And you've also said that you don't cry easily, but there is one item that certainly brought you to tears.

Yes, the rocking horse. The rocking horse. Tell us about that for those who don't know about it. I think the story with the rocking horse is that the contrib had also lost a husband to the same cancer as I had lost my husband to. And so there was a very personal connection. Rocking horses, as a child, I had a rocking horse and it was just fabulous. And out of the blue, when I was doing the scene where I was removing the saddle, I was hoping that the name and date would be underneath. And as I removed the saddle, it was.

And it just, you know, hit me like a ton of bricks. It was suddenly the wall started to come down. And remains one of your most iconic moments in the program though oh gosh yeah yeah yeah i have had so many questions in for you in the last couple of minutes of the program i'm going to do a quick fire round loving these questions for you ruth uh parry in nidderdale wants to say i brought a fancy new bridal for my horse which came with instructions not to use glycerin based saddle soap how should I keep it clean and shiny without well that's a good point um I think if it came with those instructions then that brand obviously have their own cleaning brand go with it you know because they know how

their leather's been tanned so it'll complement the bridal that she has to stick with it yes this one says um I've got a question for Susie I have two gorgeous leather jackets and I have no clue how to care for them. How do I clean for them? How do I keep the leather soft? I'd be really grateful for some information. Yes. So again, there are products that are made specifically for leather clothing. And it's really important that you use the right product for the article that you have.

And what if they don't know well you can just look on on um on the web and and just look you know cleaning products for leather clothing so don't just do it at home yourself no no you need to have something that complements it yeah and john wants to say uh when our mother passed away and we were cleaning out the house we found our charlton dog's collar hanging up in the garage it's rather green and moldy and very smelly could we get any tips on how to restore it to Pete as a little family heirloom thank you then I would remove the mold that's on it with a damp cloth and then hydrate with some sort of leather conditioner and it should come up beautifully. You make it sound very simple. If only it was. Philip in Stalbridge says, I'm repairing a wooden clothes source, which is probably a century old.

I had to remove some doweling. I'm impressed by the fine tolerances on such a humble item. I'm a bodging amateur, but I have been inspired by craftspeople on the repair shop. So do the best possible job. Thank you, Philip. And that just goes. It's had such a massive impact. Thank you so much, Susie Fletcher, for joining us to talk about your new memoir. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. Hello, my name's Michelle Dyswalt.

And I'm Laura Smith. And we have a new podcast from BBC Radio 4. Bang On It is a weekly podcast where we curate, recommend, cherry pick through the week and just go, have a look at that, basically. We're going highbrow, we're going lowbrow, right? We're doing the legs. We're doing the hard yards so you don't have to.

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