Woman's Hour - Syria, Raising a family in the UK, Lisa O’Neill

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

What does the fall of Bashar al-Assad’s regime in Syria mean for both the present and future of women on the ground? Nuala McGovern is joined by Chief Foreign Correspondent at The Times, Christina Lamb, and Senior Research Fellow at the London School of Economics and member of the Women's Advisory Board to the UN special envoy to Syria, Dr Rim Turkmani. Journalist Rhiannon Picton-James says you couldn’t pay her to have another child in the UK – because she believes it’s a ‘cruel and unfriendly’ country. Is she right? What are we doing wrong? Rhiannon joins Nuala in the studio to discuss, along with comedian Esther Manito.The rivalry between silver-screen icons Bette Davis and Joan Crawford is the stuff of legend, a decades-long battle sparked by both professional and personal resentments. Now the story is being told in a re-boot of the play Bette & Joan, now showing at the Park Theatre in London. Greta Scaachi, who plays Bette, and Felicity Dean, who plays Joan, join Nuala to tell us more about the pair’s infamous relationship.Lisa O’Neill is an internationally renowned singer-songwriter who has built a reputation internationally for her unique folk sound and powerful song writing. Lisa joins Nuala to speak about the women who have inspired her, why she puts messages of social justice in her music, and to perform live in the studio. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. History is unfolding in Syria following the rapid collapse of the Assad regime. The regime was overthrown by rebels over the past 24 hours. Now, you might have seen that footage of women released from a notorious prison in Damascus or the thousands that have been displaced trying to finally make their way home.

We'll hear what the new reality might mean for Syrian women. Also today, some of the guests joining me in studio, actors Greta Scarki and Felicity Dean, currently starring in the play Betty and Joan, telling the story of that famous feud between Hollywood royalty. We'll also have a performance by the Irish musician Lisa O'Neill. Her voice is beyond captivating. More of Lisa in today's programme with a Christmas twist. I also have a guest that says the following.

You couldn't pay me to have another child in this cruel and unfriendly country. This is Rhiannon Picton-Jones talking about her experience. And that's that people seem to hate seeing children and mothers in public places. So in restaurants, in shops or on public transport. She talks about encountering irritation and tutting when places, so in restaurants, in shops or on public transport. She talks about encountering

irritation and tutting when she has kids in tow. Well, I'm wondering does that resonate? Or have you found community that helps you raise your child as you go about pushing a buggy or holding a very small hand? In your experience, is the UK a miserable place

to have a child? I want to hear your stories this morning. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message, a voice note perhaps. 03700 100 444 is the number and we will have that conversation a little later.

But it is just over a day since rebel forces declared that former Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's government had fallen after they took the capital, Damascus. There are now attempts to establish a new order in the country and Assad has fled as the rebels closed in. He is thought to be in Moscow, according to Russian state media. They have offered asylum to him and his family. Meanwhile, the international community is trying to assess the situation and how to interact with the various rebel factions.

What does this historic change mean for the present and future women in Syria? In a moment, we'll hear from Dr. Rim Turkmani, Senior Research Fellow at the London School of Economics and also member of the Women's Advisory Board to the UN Special Envoy to Syria and still has family in the country. So, Rim, in just a couple of minutes. But first, just before we came on air, I spoke to Christina Lam. She is Chief Foreign Correspondent at the Sunday Times. She's also a best-selling author. And I wanted to hear her thoughts. So, I asked her what we know about the central group involved in overthrowing the Syrian regime, the HTS or Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, and also about its leader, Abu Muhammad al-Jolani, particularly their stance on women and women's rights. So they were originally affiliated to al-Qaeda, which is why they're a prescribed group regarded as a terrorist group, both by the UK, US, many other countries,

but they disassociated themselves from Al-Qaeda and have been trying to present a more moderate sort of front in recent years, and really sort of presenting themselves as HTS 2.0, if you like. The slight fear I think many of us have is, of course, that's exactly what we heard from the Taliban when they took over three and a half years ago in Afghanistan, many people said this isn't the Taliban of old, they've changed, this is Taliban 2.0. You had the then Chief of Defence Staff, General Nick Carter, describing them as country boys. And then in practice, of course, we've seen them stripping away more and more rights for women, and really a worse situation than the previous Taliban. And it was quite noticeable that the Taliban congratulated Jalani yesterday, really spoke of him as one of their own. It's such an interesting parallel to bring up, Christina.

And actually, that was such a rapid fall as well, if we think of Kabul at that time. Coming back to Syria with the HTS group gaining control of Damascus, I mean, does it follow through that they would become the ruling party? We do know there's a lot of other groups that are probably going to try and exploit this situation.

Yeah, I think we just don't know at the moment. And I certainly don't want to rain on anyone's parade. You know, there's a lot of people very happy to see the end of more than 54 years of Assad family rule and dictatorship.

And, you know, seeing the terrible things that went on. So, you know, it's early days but and what happens as you say it was so quick the past few days which again was a bit like what happened in afghanistan with the taliban taking over with really barely shot being fired the army just falling away because they were so demoralized and unpaid. But in this case, you know, it wasn't just HTS that did this. It was a whole raft of different rebel and opposition groups which came together for the first time. Some of them, you know, nationalists, liberals or Democrats, very anti-jihadists, but they all work together with this one objective of toppling Assad.

So we don't really know what will happen. And one of the big problems with Syria back in when the civil war first started in 2011, the uprising then was there was just no agreement between the opposition groups and western governments that were trying to sort of find opposition to work with got very frustrated because you know it was very unclear who was the real opposition and they were constantly arguing with each other so to have come together like this is amazing um and i i have a good certain friend actually wrote a book with uh called a girl from aleppo who is a kurdish girl who was disabled she has cerebral palsy and managed to cross out from aleppo to germany i spoke to her yesterday she was so happy but also fearful because she not only is a woman but she's Kurdish um so but she said to me look today's a day for celebration tomorrow we can

think about all of these things so I think that is is very true but you know we do have to be aware but um we just don't know what some of this, sorry to step on you there, Christina. Some of the celebrations that we are seeing are, for example, women and even a child being released from prison. That footage that was verified from a notorious prison in Damascus, for example. Does that tell us anything about what women can expect or indeed what they have gone through under the Assad regime?

Yeah, of course. I mean, the Assad regime was terrible for men, women and children. And it's astonishing seeing the scenes of people being released from prison you know many cases relatives thought that the people were dead so you know it's amazing to see that but I also you know I did cover the fall of of Saddam and the fall of Gaddafi in Libya, saw those same kind of scenes, went with people into the prisons, particularly in Iraq, and heard the terrible things that they'd gone through. But as we all know, that didn't end well in either case. But hopefully people have learned from the past. I think, you know, the Syrian opposition and Syrian civil societies,

civil groups have worked very hard the last few years to be in a different situation to that. And hopefully governments around the world also have learned from mistakes that were made in those cases. It's an interesting one and I thought the exact same as you illustrate there that these scenes in a way are familiar to us even though they are extraordinary we feel we

have seen this before because of those various instances that you talk about that you have covered, whether in Iraq, Libya, and in some respects, Afghanistan as well. Let me turn as well to the scenes of people returning. You know, you mentioned your good friend who is Kurdish, who is thinking about this time. We are seeing so many people that have been displaced all around the world or within the country of Syria, trying to make their way back home and make their way back home immediately after this announcement. It is just Monday. This was Sunday morning that news began to filter through. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, it's been a long time that many of these people have been in exile. During the refugee crisis in 2015, when lots of the people crossing Europe were Syrians, many of those people were really people that the country will need in future.

They were surgeons, they were architects, they were engineers, professional people who, you know, felt that they had no option but to flee this oppression of assets. So, you know, it's good that some of them go back. I think if I was in a position, I would be excited to go back, but was slightly waiting a little bit just to see what happens. Christina Lamb, thanks to her, Chief Foreign Correspondent at the Sunday Times. Well, let me also bring in Dr. Rim Turkmani, Senior Research Fellow at the London School of Economics, who's been listening to Christina. You haven't been back to Syria since 2010.

I know you still have family there. I wonder how you're feeling this morning. Do you feel like getting on the next plane or are you happy to wait a little while longer? Only if there is a plane that can land in Syria right now. The airport is closed. We still don't know exactly how to get to the country. The land border with Turkey is a possibility, but you also need the permission and I think right now it's only refugees who are allowed back. So when there is a chance I will go back. My feelings, I'm still very happy, very joyful, but I am concerned with all the issues that have been raised so far today

in your programme. I am very concerned, but also I have faith. I have faith in the Syrian society, in the Syrian women. They have always historically managed to carve a place for themselves in public life. And this is not a credit to Assad itself, who only paid lip service to women's participation in public life. Oppressed women, as you know, we heard so many stories so far. You spoke about the child in the prison, my own cousin. She was arrested by the Syrian regime about six years ago when she was nine months pregnant. She gave birth in prison. Her daughter lived with her in the prison for 40 days and then was forcibly taken by her from her, put in an orphanage. It was a horror story. She told me two weeks ago in Istanbul how the birth took place inside the present. It just is beyond the worst nightmare you've ever

imagined. But now we do have hope. But there is also, of course, the alarming possibility of living yet under another authority that consistently imposed restrictions on women's participation in public life. We have to remember also, this is not only because they are extreme group, it's because they are also militarised group. Are you talking about HTS specifically? Absolutely. So just to remind people, if they've just tuned in,

that they are one of the central groups, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, its leader is Abu Muhammad al-Jilani. That was a number of groups that came together, but that is really the central group. And he is the emerging character within this. You have reservations about him and that group? Absolutely. They don't have good history at all with women. I mean, just three days ago, a group of Syrian women were demonstrating outside the prisons of HGS in Idlib, where hundreds of their men were arrested after taking part in a demonstration against al-Jolani. And what were they faced with, these women, as they were demonstrating with stones? He doesn't have at all a good history with the women.

We have no reason to be optimistic if he is in charge. But again, it's not just that, it's the fact that it's militarized groups that are taking control and they often, these type of groups, they use control over women's lives as a mean to assert power and enforce their ideology. So women's rights are usually among the first casualties when oppressive armed groups gain control. We have examples from Sudan, Libya, Iran, I mean, you know, numerous examples. But we do have an opportunity now because there's so much potential in the Syrian society

and there's this feeling right now by everyone, we want to play a role, we want to come to the fore. And this is amazing potential. You cannot create this just like this. You know, it's huge potential. We can immediately put it for good use by supporting the local agenda. By supporting who? The local agenda.

So women's rights. So the local agenda, which is interesting. And I did see your husband was tweeting, Rym, this morning. Yes, I saw he was tweeting. Very proud husband saying that you never stopped working for change, that you gave up a brilliant scientific career to work for Syria, to always put Syrians first and fight for a Syria-led solution. Skeptical, rightly, of external power interests.

So is this the moment, do you think? I know you've spoken about some reservations but do you think if it could be captured correctly? It could be captured correctly and let me talk about what we can do from here from the outside. So just a reminder to everyone the agenda of women's right is not a Western one it's a local one. Through my work, I recently uncovered the women demonstration against the Ottoman ruler in Damascus in 1870. There were women demonstrations in Damascus University in 1920 led by women. Actually, they led everyone, men and women. The women were leading and giving speeches, you know, in the demonstrations. Syrian women are very strong, have very good history, and it's their agenda to be part of public life

and to protect their rights and freedom. And we should protect that, make sure it's there, they should own it. But also right now, whoever wants to assume power, they are desperate for international recognition, be it opening an embassy, talking to them, funding international formal recognition. And that should be conditioned with many strengths, including ensuring women's inclusion, women's participation in public life, and women's rights. Again, not because it's a Western agenda. The Taliban used to frame all these issues as the Western imposed agenda.

And we should stress this is ours. And let me come back to you personally again. I know you still have family there. You're posting some pictures that your sister had from Damascus. I was talking about that pull that there is towards home for so many people. I imagine you have small children that have never been back?

Yeah, my son was there last when he was five years old. My daughter was two and a half years old. They hardly remember the country. And I can't wait to take them back, show them their home country, you know, my hometown, all the stories I tell them about Syria. I were, you know, it's just, yeah, it's so emotional. It just, I cannot wait. Sadly, my mother passed away two years ago.

So the only thing I can show them about her is her grave. But she was a great woman. And she was from that generation who was born towards the end of the French mandate. But she went to university, she had three university degrees, she had an amazing career, and she wasn't an exception. It was a whole generation of Syrian women who stepped into public life, and I'm so proud of her, and I want to preserve her legacy and that of many women during the last 13 years who endured so much suffering under Assad,

but were organising and grouping, and now it is their moment. And I know you couldn't go back as she was dying, so I'm very sorry for that, and I suppose that is one of the legacies for you of the Assad regime. Absolutely. Thank you for coming on.

We will speak to you again. Of course, this is just day one of a new reality for Syrian women. That's Dr. Rim Turkmani Of course, this is just day one of a new reality for Syrian women. That's Dr. Rim Turkmani, Senior Research Fellow at the London School of Economics. And she was also a member of the Women's Advisory Board

to the UN Special Envoy to Syria and still has family in the country as we were hearing. Thanks very much to you. 84844 if you want to get in touch. Although when I take a look at my screen, a lot of you have. We asked the question,

is the UK a miserable place to have children? You have lots of views. We'll get to those in a few minutes. But I want to turn to a rivalry first between the silver screen icons, Betty Davis and Joan Crawford. It is the stuff of legend, this decade-long battle sparked by both professional and personal resentments.

BAFTA-nominated actress Greta Scarki revives her role as Betty Davis. Felicity Dean, who took the reins as Joan Crawford. It's called Betty and Joan. It's showing at the Park Theatre in London, but good luck getting a ticket. That's right. We sold out before we opened.

You know, the minute I stepped through the doors last week, I was lucky enough to go, the lobby was packed with people and sure enough when I went in you kind of had to edge your way through to try, because it was free seating, to try and get a seat. Everybody was fully invested.

For people who don't know, the play is set while the two stars are filming Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, the claustrophobic thriller from 1962 following an ageing former child star played by Betty Davis, tormenting her paraplegic sister, a former film star, which Joan Crawford plays in this old Hollywood mansion. You've probably come across it at some point, I am sure.

And I'm very happy to have both Greta and Felicity in studio with me now. Good morning. How much are you enjoying it? Let me start with you, Felicity. Oh, well, it's been a very intense week because we had our press opening. So it's and it's quite a marathon for the two of us. But oh, yes, I mean, it's wonderful playing these iconic women. I mean, we we love it. And yeah, I think we're going to have a lot of fun as the run goes on. There are a lot of laughs. It's really raucous at times, but it's got a great range as well, because there's some quieter moments, there's some more internal moments. We each get to

sort of talk to the audience, almost as if we're on a TV show, but then almost as if we're on a TV show, but then almost as if we're on the psychiatrist's couch as well in some places. The stuff that they presented to the public and the more inner secrets, as well as a narrative that is just hilarious. It is brilliant. You are quite outspoken and rude as Bette Davis. Is that what she was like? I don't know about that. I think she was frank and opinionated, but she felt that she was right.

And yeah, she must have been an absolute pain in the arse to work with. I think the rivalry is interesting. I mean, because I think female rivalry is something that's not really talked about that much, but it exists either overtly or covertly. And the interesting thing about these two, it was very overt. I mean, they were openly rivalrous, particularly Betty, and they expressed it very, very clearly, which I think is quite interesting to see. But they both had to be very tough battling in a man's world. And we could say that there's still resonances of it today.

Sometimes you think not much has changed. But if you imagine the 1930s and 40s, where they were both up for the same roles, working opposite the same actors. Married in the same, well, having, what should we say? Love affairs. With the same men. We're the same directors and actors and studio heads. So they were having to attract and also keep their careers buoyant and attract the public. And there wasn't much chance for them to have an exchange because like we find in our careers today, if you're cast in film roles, you find it's very rare. You know who your rivals are, but when do you actually meet them? And what I've found is when you meet your rivals, when you meet fellow actresses of the

same generation, you have so much in common. You tend to feel a warmth and an instant bond and understanding. It's extraordinary once you meet. Well, you might have expected that between Joan and Betty when they were beside each other, also on something that was so successful. It's not like it was a flop that you might, you know, have some hostility towards the person. But Joan was trying to be friends with Betty, I think.

Yes, I think she was. I mean, she had a great admiration for her as an actress. She really did. I mean, they just, they sort of approach things from totally different standpoints, which is actually played out in the play. Joan is much more interested in her look and her glamour and her sort of persona. And Betty, the theatre actress, she came from New York and she wanted to actually break barriers. You know, female work was not just about glamour. But for Joan, it was very important to her. It was an era, the 30s and 40s, when the idea of film and stars and seeing huge close-ups of glamorous faces on the big screen, especially because people were struggling with poverty and wartime and so on, they wanted their stars to be superhuman, to be something, to be goddesses.

And Betty, who had a slight disadvantage that she was not as photogenic as many of the contemporaries she was competing with, she naturally wanted to be a real actress that is playing real women. So she didn't buy into this idea of everything just being perfect and the soft focus lens. She wanted to play the part and look like the part. And that's one of the reasons that she's inspired actresses for generations. Meryl Streep has written and talked and done documentaries about why Bette Davis was her inspiration. It just sounds so modern to me, you know, with women that have come in and spoken to me at this table, for example.

I want to play a little of both of you in action. You're discussing being older in Hollywood. I was back at MGM recently. They made me feel like somebody's mother. There are no stars anymore. They don't exist. How can they when they give the likes of Joanne Woodward the Academy Award? What's wrong with that? I rather like Miss Woodward.

I think of her as a real... She's no star. Well, at least she doesn't trade on her looks. Like so many of them today. Or yesterday. Rows and rows of passive blondes all made from the same cookie cutter. No guts, Debbie, endurance. That trap, Monroe.

Don't speak ill of the dead. I wasn't, dear. I think it's a good thing she's dead. Oh, stop. She was a sweet girl. Just brilliant. And it's like that, that quick-fire dialogue all through it. I thought it must be an incredibly difficult role to play.

I mean, just... Both roles. Very challenging for words. That's what I mean with... And props. I mean, the both roles. Very challenging for words. That's what I mean with props. I mean, the props, I'm still struggling with them. I still at night kind of wake up and think I've got to do this and that and the other because I do a full Baby Jane makeup. And I take it off in an imaginary, in front of an imaginary mirror. So it's terrifying because certain things have to be done in certain places so that we get on to the next bit of action, the next bit of dialogue and it's really fast. Yeah, really fast

and actually the play goes in so fast just as an audience member, it went by in a flash Oh good, that's good I think also it's a very intimate space It is. They're very close so you have to sort of overcome the energy coming, I mean literally

there's a two foot gap between somebody's feet and you're playing space. So they're there. By the way, when we boast about it being sold out, of course, it's only a 90 seater. So it's a bit of an empty boast, really. Not really, I don't think, because people are so invested in it. And also the demographic was really diverse. Which is interesting. Yeah, definitely.

That's true. I think Anton Burge has written a cult classic, actually. I think it's one of those plays that has its own momentum and that will go on because audiences love it so much. It's funny and it's feisty. It kind of pulls back the curtain, I think, on these two women that people are fascinated with. And that kind of energy and dynamism that they have between them is just compelling to watch.

I guess they were both in their 50s when they made. Yes, they were. Yes, they were. Did they ever become friends? No, I don't think so. I think they were they were rivals. It was, you know, some zero bias. It was, if I get a part, that means she's not going to get it.

So I think there's that, they got stuck in that psychology, really. Maybe, I mean, sometimes a rival can make you better, right? That competitive edge can kind of push you. I don't know whether they had that or whether by the time you're in your 50s in Hollywood at that point that you were considered past it.

I think you were in that era. It was very difficult to maintain that level of stardom. Their careers were both taking a downturn. Mind you, a lot of what they say, a lot of our dialogue, I find so resonant with my own experience. You know, so I say not much has changed in some ways and it's a great pleasure to relish those lines

and those strident opinions expressed by Betty. Most of the dialogue of both characters is verbatim. It comes from their interviews or their autobiographies or witness accounts of what they said. So it rings very true. You can trust Anton Burge's wonderful script, but how close it can be at times to what you, Felicity, and I want to say, what we want to complain about. And they were both struggling to keep their careers buoyant in a very much a man's world where age was, you know,

completely dismissed at a certain time of your life. And so it is very close to us both. Speaking about verbatim, I saw you speak about what you called, and I'm quoting you, the grey wig in the wardrobe problem. Do you want to tell us what you mean by that? That was something that I coined 20 years ago, because I realised that all those actresses, great actresses of our time, like Maggie Smith and Geraldine McEwan, you meet them in real life and they look like young students and, you know, very youthful and with lovely hair. And as soon as they play a character, as soon as they're acting, it's out with the grey wig to play what audiences expect women of their age to look like. And I've got a grey wig being made for me now because

in the last five years, I've had to put on so many bad wigs because I was to look grey and I don't even dye my hair. But, you know, the expectation that someone my age in their 60s should be grey is still so ingrained in the public. The casting directors get young, they're very young, so their perception of a 60-year-old is very different from the reality of being 60. That is so interesting. They see us as much older as they would see their mothers

or even their grandmothers. So they're looking through a lens that's a few generations out of date sometimes I always feel because you go, hey, we're in our 60s, we're great. We can do everything. Well, we don't.

We've got a few more wrinkles but we don't dress differently or feel that we've changed at all. You know, we're still as unwise as we always were. Yeah, I always think about that when people talk about wisdom coming with age. I'm like, hmm. You know, you think it's going to accumulate, but it doesn't. It just disappears. I'm still waiting.

What would you like people to get away from this production? Fun. And I'm sure it's a great way to relax. But there's also some very touching moments. People tell me they've cried. Yes. Yes, the same. Behind these women, which were icons, they were also very human and very damaged. Joan had a terrible upbringing. So I would like them to be seen as really rounded, whole people, not just a cardboard caricature of an image. And I think that that's important. And have fun. I'd love them to come, everyone to have a great time.

They'll definitely have fun, that I can promise. So great to have both of you in, Greta Scarki and Felicity Dean. Thank you. And Betty and Joan continues at the Park Theatre in North London. Try your best until January.

They will, as soon as they cancel, the cancellations come in, especially in winter and at this busy time of year. And we're told that the box office just put them straight online. They won't even hold them for us. They just put them straight online.

So if you ring in, you might have a lucky chance. And have a great old night. Thank you both for coming in. Lovely to have both of you. So many people getting in touch. I was asking, is the UK miserable place to have children? Here comes So many people getting in touch. I was asking, is the UK a miserable place

to have children? Here comes. Good morning. Paula here. My son turned eight weeks old this weekend. I'm a first-time mum, so can't compare to living elsewhere,

but I feel very lucky to be a parent in North London. I'm struck by how many great free resources there are. We live in Hackney and have taken advantage of dropping GP clinics to talk to health visitors

and a breastfeeding workshop. There's so much free stuff for new mums. Read-alongs at the local library, coffee meet-ups, park strolls where you can meet new parents. There are also lots

of inexpensive classes for baby yoga to sing and sign. I feel very lucky to be raising a child here. Here's another. At best, the UK tolerates children and the cost of childcare

is equivalent to a second mortgage. Compare this to Ireland or any of our European neighbours. The UK has never moved on from the Victorian ideal of children should be seen and not heard. So says Martin in Edinburgh. I have plenty more to get through.

84844 if you want to get in touch. Add your thoughts for my next guests. And we're talking about this. We've talked about the UK's fertility rate before, right? That's at a record low. Between 2022 and 2023, women in England and Wales had an average of 1.44 children.

So that was the lowest number since records began in 1938. For the journalist Rhiannon Picton-James, this is no surprise. She says you couldn't pay her to have another child. I wonder what's her price. But she says you couldn't pay her to have another child because the UK is such a miserable place to raise children. Is she right? That's what I'm asking. You're answering. And if so, what's gone wrong or what is going right? We're hearing that as well. Rhiannon is in studio. So is the comedian

Esther Manito, who has two children herself. Welcome to both of you. Hello. Hi. Let me start with you, Rhiannon. Welcome back. Do you have a price? Couldn't you be paid to have another child in England? No, I think if I maybe won the lottery, I would use that money to move abroad and have a child somewhere else, yeah. Okay, layout.

For those that haven't read your article that was in The Independent. It was the I. Oh, the I, forgive me. Lay out your argument on why you think it is a miserable place to raise children. From my own experience, having the baby to Ada becoming a toddler, I just felt really almost shunned from society. 80 to 90 percent of new mothers say that they actually feel isolated since having children. And I think it's because you just feel so unwelcome everywhere you go.

So you're almost forced to stay in. So let's get into specifics that you do mention in your article, like trying to get on the bus or trying to go into a store. Yeah, people are reluctant to move for you. You get on a bus for the pram, people are in the pram seats, they will not get up for you. I've even been on a bus once, I've asked people to move.

They just look at you like they can't hear you. And the bus drivers had to say, hey, like you guys have got to get up to let the pram in. But no, they just don't want to. Or, you know, maybe I'll drop a door in your face. Or a woman was annoyed with me because I didn't hold the door open for her,

but I'm pushing a pram. Yeah, there just seems like there's no tolerance. I think maybe the time that I had Ada, it was 2020. So we're coming out the pandemic and people had kind of a break from seeing children and babies and mothers in public. And maybe that has an effect. Interesting. Here's Kirsty from Suffolk. She says, I have a 15 year old son and I would have loved a second child. However, I would not like to bring up a young child in the UK anymore. People

have become less patient, especially since COVID. It's very sad. I think family isn't as in the forefront as countries such as Spain. Here's another. Hi, I wouldn't call it a miserable country to bring up children, but times have changed. Women have careers. We move away from home

and struggle with more juggling a profession alongside raising little human beings without our familiar community around us. I was travelling home via an internal UK flight a couple of years ago with the toddler and baby in tow, buggy bags, etc. Got to the gate and the airline staff refused to let me into the lift as I wasn't disabled, but also refused to help me down the four flights of steps to board the plane. I had to rely on some lovely good Samaritans to assist me. You're nodding.

Yeah, you see this all the time. People almost boast about not helping mothers. You see videos online of people saying, oh, mum asked me to move for her so she could sit with her kid on the plane. And I said no. And everyone in the comments is congratulating you, like, oh, well done. Yeah, you shouldn't move. I think it's a personal choice.

If you want to give your seat up for someone, that's fine. If you shouldn't move I think it's a personal choice if you want to give your seat up for someone that's fine if you don't there's no obligation but it's strange to boast about it and you wouldn't boast about refusing an elderly person or someone in wheelchair and if you did you absolutely wouldn't be met with applause and cheer yeah although I think some elderly or disabled people might have a few stories as well I know I've heard some on here that might make your hair curl. Good to have you with us as well, Esther. Do you agree? I don't think it's a particularly black and white issue. And I certainly can relate to some of the things, situations that have been highlighted today. I think that there has been, I feel there's been a little bit of a change.

I feel like with definitely with the younger generation, I feel like when I'm on the tube, people who are younger, I've noticed it even with my parents, with my children, that there is a willingness to accommodate slightly more. So I feel like are we on the cusp of change? That being said, I do relate to feeling when I go abroad my father is Lebanese I've taken my little ones over to Lebanon and that thing of going oh we're going to a restaurant it's absolutely fine no one's going to care or oh you know being on a plane and my little one's kicking off no one's people are all going to come around and help and I haven't had that same relaxation of taking my children into a into a restaurant. I want to come back to that story on the plane in a second. Here's just so many comments are coming in.

I want to read when people are getting in touch, 84844. I think that the country is not hostile towards children, but their children are worse behaved because parents don't teach them to be better mannered or cheerful. A lot of them are very spoiled. I disagree so violently with that statement. I think children are so often pushed into child only spaces. You don't see them in maybe in restaurants, they don't learn how to behave in them. If you take a kid out a couple times a year

to a restaurant, they're not going to know how to behave. So you see French children behave much better. It's because they're at restaurants every single week. So they learn how to act in those environments. What do you think about that, Esther? i think it's about community and i think that if we stop looking at it being um that it's got to be really segregated and we actually look at it as being it's just a unanimous community there are children in the community and we should feel free to interact with those children so if somebody it's such a relief when your little one's kicking off and somebody can just almost interact with you. So that's interesting, which brings me back to a story that I was remembering while reading your article, which I was on a flight. I was going to Nigeria. And when I got into the lift and he threw one of those big lifts, there was a little lad.

He probably was four or five. And he turned to go to his mom. But it was another woman that was there, another Nigerian lady. And she just hugged him. She's like, oh, you're fine, you're fine. And she hugged him and the mum was kind of laughing. And they just cuddled for the whole time until we reached the floor where we all got out. And I was like, I can't imagine that happening in some other societies, that you would take a stranger's child and just snuggle them until... Or vice versa, that you'd step in and say, no, you don't do that.

I remember, so when I was with family in Lebanon, we went to a museum and my nephew was messing around, four or five years old, messing around, and the security guard stepped in and just went, stop it now. And he did. And I did just think, oh, if that was here, it'd be like, don't you talk to my child like that, only I talk to my child like that. So I do wonder, and I did just think oh if that was here it'd be like don't you talk to my child so I do wonder and I don't know I don't have all the answers and you know being a parent you are just kind of you know feeling your way through the dark so I don't know what the answer is but I do

wonder if feeling that it's not just on you that other people can step in or can interact with your children do you feel you could step in and speak about somebody else's children? No. Do you, Rhiannon? No, I don't know that I would. I've given kids a hug before. I don't think I'd ever try and correct someone's parenting. Oh no. Right, let's read some more. I feel the total opposite about bringing up a child in the UK.

I've had a wonderful experience with both children feeling very supported by the NHS and community facilities. I also noticed a difference when I returned to work and was out and about without a baby and suddenly realised that nobody was giving me special treatment or helping me with doors because I was just another human being. It was a good reminder of how kind people were being

when I was out with my babies. Another, so far anyway, I'd say the UK is far from miserable in terms of starting a family, just a short one there. There's another. Morning. Children are welcome if they're well behaved, but so many are not. Yelling across public venues, chasing each other up and down supermarket aisles, and no attempt made by carers to stop the nuisance to others.

Basic behaviour in public places is different from home for all of us. Best regards, Jackie. Have you ever, Rhiannon, responded to anybody who was making you feel bad in a public place for their behaviour, for the way they were acting or not acting? Yeah, I've actually chased a man down before. This guy... Are you kidding? No, he barges into me.

He pushes my pram and me physically. He gets through a queue and the security. And he gets through a queue. And the security guard looks at him and tells him. But he got away and I wasn't going to let that happen. So I chased him down. I physically ran after him and got in his face. And I did shout at him. My husband had to come and break it up.

But it's just not acceptable at all. What did he say? He said something like, oh, nice language. Because I'm really just letting him have it. But I think if more mothers did respond that way, they would think twice about doing it. What has the reaction been to what you've written? A lot of people said, yeah, actually, I feel exactly the same way.

Mostly expats have said, yeah, actually, leaving the country and coming back, I've noticed a really big change. So I'm not sure if it's something that's happened more in recent years. Like in the 60s when my Nana had children, I think there was a much bigger community feeling of a community raising a child. So she would leave the pram outside the house, she said, and the neighbours would take care of the children. And, you know, they play in the garden, they play in the street and the whole community would be looking after these children, not just these isolated family units. That's exactly, yeah, as soon as you said that, I was like, yeah, people, children played outside.

And I do wonder if it's that isolation, if your child, your responsibility in the house, they don't play outside anymore, there's that breakdown. Does that mean that when you do take them into public spaces, they've not been integrated, they've not been around other people apart from the family, so is that causing behavioural issues? That being spaces, they've not been integrated. They've not been around other people apart from the family. So is that causing behavioural issues? That being said, the people that have been writing in saying that there are loads of services and lots of support for mums.

I do agree with that being raising my children in London. I do feel like there was a lot going on. There was a lot I could take my children to. There was a lot of support. So I think that has massively improved. But I do think the community thing and the community of raising children has definitely changed. Lots more. I've had mixed experiences from people who went out with my children. One practical difficulty is public toilets, taking two toddlers in on your own. Cubicles too small, toilets too big, sinks too high.

You have to lift up a heavy toddler and dangle them over the sink, inevitably ending with a wet front from leaning over the sink. It's these little things which means we aren't set up for family life out and about. Yeah, it's so true. One more. I'm from the US and from what friends my age have told me, none of the free social support for midwife visits to local drop-in centres where you can take

your baby exists there. So far anyway, I'd say the UK is far from miserable in terms of starting a family also there in the UK and they say back in the US so that basically some of the aspects that are here um of the support etc has improved and continues to improve I didn't really get any midwife care when I had Ada I had an episiotomy two paracetamol and a prayer, basically. Goodbye, good luck, try not to blow your stitches on the way out. And that was it, really. I was just sent home and no one actually came to check on me.

And I was told that actually you are supposed to have someone come and check that you're healing okay, but I just didn't, it didn't happen for me. It sounds, Brianna, the way you describe it as a lonely experience. Yeah, it was definitely really, really isolating. I also find that if you want to talk about parenting or motherhood in a negative way, or you want to just talk about the challenges and the difficulties, people are so quick to shut you down. And it's, oh, you should have thought that before you had kids or, you know. Don't have kids is what they say. Don't have kids then, should have thought that before you have kids or, you know, oh, you think you're the first one to ever have kids? Like, this is what it's like for everyone. So there's just no willingness to improve anything, to discuss anything. It's just stop talking about that.

Or maybe it's just we just need to talk. Yeah, that's the thing. Maybe it is we just need to not suffer in silence. Keep talking. Keep talking. On Woman's Hour is one place. Rhiannon Ficton-James, thank you so much for coming in, along with Esther Manito.

Lots of comments coming in for you as well. Thanks to everybody who has been contributing. My next guest counts among her many, many fans. The Peaky Blinders actor, Cillian Murphy, rock and roll legend Iggy Pop. I actually came across Lisa through Cillian Murphy with that show we had on Six Music. Lisa O'Neill is an Irish singer songwriter. She has built a reputation internationally for her unique folk sound. She is such a distinctive voice

and powerful songwriting. In November, she performed in the first of two concerts that form a series called Symphony for the Moons. That concert in Dublin was sold out.

The next one is Wednesday at the Barbican. Guess what? Also sold out. But fear not, you'll still get a chance to hear her live right here. She's just sitting

opposite me in the studio. She's going to do a performance in just a few minutes time. Lisa, welcome. Thank you, Nuala. We met just before you came in and to let the listeners know, my roots, my family roots are actually pretty close to yours. You're in kind of the Midlands of Ireland. You're Cavan and my family was just over the border in Leitrim.

And I bring up Calvin, particularly because when I hear your voice, when you're singing and our listeners will hear it in a moment, we can hear that accent coming through and it sounds so different. Different to other Calvin accents? No, different to other singers. I don't think I have heard it so explicitly

and so hauntingly, really, in music. It kind of brings me to that part of Ireland when I hear you sing. Well, I mean, accents are musical, aren't they? You can hear that in poetry, even in Patrick Cavanagh's poetry. I think we can hear the accent in there too. Definitely. How did you discover folk music? Oh, I don't know where it begins. Maybe listening to whatever my father was listening to at home, Tommy Macomb and the Clancy Brothers.

Our music was always there and I started playing the whistle at the age of six, seven. So I think that was the true beginning for me. And then as I get older and I discovered some really, really great folk singers like Margaret Barry and Joni Mitchell, completely different worlds. And there's the songwriting comes in, you know. I heard The Guardian was describing one of your performances.

I'm sure you saw this. Imagine Edith Piaf coming from the Irish border counties, brilliantly stomping her boots. Would you say that's accurate? I mean, that's class, but I don't know. It's interesting. I mean, I think a lot about Margaret Barry, who people would like in my voice as well.

And I'd liken her to Edith Piaf. Oh, interesting. So there is a thread going through there. They're both amazing, amazing women. You're going to have a concert, as I mentioned, at the Barbican, celebrating winter solstice, the series of Symphony for the Moons. And with a lot of your work, you are thinking about nature. Tell us about what you're going to perform for us.

Today, I'm going to perform The Bleak Midwinter, which I've been singing for years. What is it that attracts you to that? Sometimes I don't know, is it the air or is it the narrative first? But the simplicity of it's beautiful. But there's so much depth to this brief little poem. It's Christina Rossetti. Christina Rossetti and I'm only reading into her recently.

That's the interesting thing. You asked me when did folk music come to me. With this song, for example, like, you know, I've been singing it for years and didn't really question it and recently I did and I find, oh no, this is a poem written by a London woman

long before it was put to music. And, you know, it's given her such an afterlife, her inner world. And I know it's one of her simpler poems, but what speaks to, why do I like it? Well, I actually like to think of Iron Mountain in Leitrim when I'm imagining this and like just the first few lines in The Bleak Midwinter. I think in her poem, The Bleak Midwinter could well be the beginning of time. It could be the ice age, but it could

also be the emotional winter within us. Well, let us hear you play. People are in for such a treat, I have to say. I played a little at the very beginning of the programme of Old Note that I honestly think is kind of an earworm in my head most of the time. But we're going to have, as a Christmas carol, as we, of course, come a little bit closer to Christmas, to In the Bleak Midwinter. Lisa O'Neill.

So beautiful, Lisa. Make bit closer to Christmas to In the Bleak Midwinter. Lisa O'Neill. So beautiful, Lisa. Make your way back over to me just as we absorb what you have just created. She's even taken the time to turn off her amp as you make your way back over to me. Christina Rossetti had a passion for social justice. I know that's something you think about as well. And I saw next month you're releasing a song about homelessness and the housing crisis. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?

Yeah, it's called Homeless in the Thousands. And I've been living in Dublin for nearly 25 years now. And it's such a small city. I worked in Beaulieu's and Grafton Street before I went full time with music. And I actually know the faces of a lot of these people who are so down and out. And I just, I think it's so wrong.

Unlike Christina Rossetti, and so many, like Sinead O'Connor, and, you know, as writers, we have the platform to say what we see in our time. So I've tried to do that in my song. And it's not a pleasant song. You talk about female energy, Mother Earth, very much, kind of everything is connected.

And I know Sinead O'Connor used to always talk about that, you know, the job of the artist is to kind of reveal and show and try and affect change. Do you feel you can do that with your music? I hope so. I mean, even the fact if any one person is moved or they feel that a piece of music or a song, a piece of poetry has spoken to them or reflected something of their world, then yes. But on a bigger level, of course, I'd like to... Like I say, only reading into Christina Rossetti recently, I found out that she worked in the mother and baby homes in Highgate in London

for 11 years, voluntary. That was back in the 1850s, 60s. Women like that are still out there today and still necessary today. Thankfully, we don't have magdalene laundries in mother and baby homes anymore, but we do have women and children

and men homeless on the streets who need a little bit of compassion. Empathy as opposed to apathy, I think, is the flag I'm flying at the moment. What will you do in our last 30 seconds or so for solstice, winter solstice? I know you have your concert, but is it a meaningful time for you?

Oh, it is a meaningful time and I won't have my concert on the actual solstice. No, I know, not the actual day. It'll be my father Bud's birthday and if I'm not with him, I'll meditate. I'll meditate and reflect the darkest moments of the year as we head into the light. As we head into the light.

Beautiful way to end. Lisa O'Neill, the Irish singer, songwriter, as we mentioned, Symphony for the Moons, one of the concerts next Wednesday at the Barbican. Sold out, but you never know, you might be able to get a ticket, as we were talking about with previous guests as well. Thank you so much for joining us in studio. And tomorrow I'll be speaking to two female film directors from Mexico plus a woman who won

an NHS Weeks contract after being told she couldn't have one that was the same as her natural afro hair following her own cancer treatment. So lots of conversations

will be coming up. I hope you will join me at 10am tomorrow for Woman's Hour. That's 10am tomorrow for Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The Wreath Lectures 2024, hosted by me, Anita Arnand. The series is about the complexity of human violence. All violence is not the same, and all violence perpetrators are not the same. Four questions about violence,

explored by the forensic psychiatrist Dr Gwen Adshead. By listening to perpetrators, we can learn more about the genesis of violence and perhaps particularly where we might be able to intervene to reduce the risk of violence happening in the future. The Reith Lecturesures from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.