Woman's Hour - Syria's disappeared, The orgasm cult, Bickering, Taxidermy

Episode Date: November 24, 2020

Wafa Mustafa is a Syrian refugee currently living in Berlin. Her father was arrested in Syria on July 2nd 2013 and has not been heard from since. Wafa is just one of many Syrian women, who are part of Families for Freedom, a woman-led movement searching for family members who were detained or 'disappeared' by the Syrian regime, ISIS and other armed groups during Syria's brutal civil war. She joins Jane to explain why she has been sitting outside a court in Koblenz with over 60 framed photographs. They are joined by the BBC's Middle East correspondent Quentin Sommerville. A new BBC podcast, The Orgasm Cult, looks into a wellness company called One Taste and it’s co-founder, Nicole Daedone, who believed that orgasm would one day sit alongside yoga and meditation as the self-care practice for the modern empowered woman. One Taste taught orgasmic meditation or Om-ing as it’s called by those in the know. Reporter Nastaran Tavakoli-Far talks to Jane. Do you and your other half bicker? Has lockdown brought out the bickerer in you? Or maybe you see it in others, especially couples who’ve been together for a long time. We speak to Penny Mansfield, expert on relationships from One Plus One and Deborah and Gary Marshall.Elle Kaye specialises in bird taxidermy. Aged 27, she is one of a growing number of young women who have made taxidermy their trade.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast, Tuesday 24th November 2020. It is. Good morning to you. On the programme today, we're going to hear from the young Syrian woman who is looking for her father. Like hundreds of thousands of people, he has disappeared in Syria. The civil war there started almost a decade ago.

Still so much suffering. We'll also talk to Quentin Somerville, who's our Middle East correspondent, to tell us a little bit about what is happening in Syria right now. Also later in the programme, young women and taxidermy. Yes, really, it's becoming much more popular with young women. Interestingly, some men in the trade don't like that very much. That's a little bit later. And bickering.

Have you been doing more of it at home in lockdown? On social media, at BBC Women's Hour is where you'll find us. You can email the programme, of course, via our website. First of all, the American organisation One Taste, founded back in 2004, has been called the orgasm cult. It's very much a part of the so-called wellness industry. It was wildly successful. Lots of celebrities endorsed it. But now the FBI is making inquiries into One Taste's activities, including alleged sex trafficking, prostitution and violation of some American labour laws. The co-founder of the organisation is called Nicole Day-Done.

She had claimed that orgasmic meditation, or OMING, was the ultimate self-care practice for the modern, empowered woman. Well, reporter Nastaran Tavakoli-Farr has made a podcast about OneTaste called The Orgasm Cult. It's for BBC Sounds. Here she is. OneTaste is a women's wellness company out of San Francisco and the main thing that they taught was this practice called orgasmic meditation. Now, this was a timed 15-minute practice where usually men would learn how to stroke women, stroke their clitorises in a very sort of specific fashion. And this would be, you know, a 15 minute practice. And it was very much taught for a few reasons. First of all, for women to be able to really focus on the sensations in

their body and to get in touch with their bodies more. And also for sort of men to be able to kind of learn how to connect to women. So that was kind of the main aim of the practice. But let's be absolutely clear and explicit about this for the benefit of our listeners. The One Taste workshops would involve women signing up, going along and having their clitoris stroked by a man they didn't know for up to 15 minutes. Yeah, it was optional if they wanted to do that. So there are a lot of women who went to a workshop, maybe just watched or kind of, you know, sat there and, you know, took it all in. So you didn't have to participate. That was an optional component. They also had a lot of communication games as well in these workshops. So that was something

else that people talked about. But the OM practice, that's the orgasmic meditation practice, that was really the key thing that One Taste taught and sold. By and large, a lot of people told me it was the sense of community that really made them want to get involved in One Taste. So the sense of there was a place full of people who wanted to explore these issues, they wanted to sort of explore concepts around meaning and purpose. And that's really what made a lot of people keep going back to One Tasteaste. It's actually something that comes up a lot with a lot of wellness companies in that they can really provide a sense of community and a place where people can explore, you know, these big questions of meaning and purpose. And in fact, one of the interviewees

on the podcast actually talks a lot about how the wellness industry actually provides this in a world which is increasingly secular. So that's a really important thing that these companies provide. And definitely that was a key thing with OneTaste. And could you generalise in any way about the people who sought its help? First of all, a lot of wealthy men got involved in OneTaste. So it was a sales tactic that OneTaste would do, very much targeting men who had money, who could pay for courses. A lot of them were from the tech industry which is actually how I first heard

of the practice because I was doing a lot of business and tech reporting when I first heard of OMING and so that that was a very key group. The other group from my reporting and also my experiences I guess kind of women who were struggling with aspects of their sexuality and hadn't really found much help, either from the medical establishment or from sort of other practices. So, you know, women who were really just looking to find some answers when it came to their sexuality, including some who also had a history of sexual trauma. And, you know, again, they weren't finding healing in any of the more sort of traditional avenues and routes to find healing.

And when did you have to start parting with money? So One Taste has been running since 2004. So their practices have changed a lot through the years. A lot of the early workshops were either free or maybe they were sort of $10 up to, you know, maybe $150 for a one day workshop. So those were the kind of price points for the intro sessions. Once people kind of went a few times and they got more involved, then the prices for courses would escalate a lot. A lot of people would be training to become orgasmic meditation coaches. So those courses were quite expensive. The first coaching program started at around $5,000, then kind of went up into the tens of thousands of dollars.

They also had an annual membership, which towards the end, I understand was around $60,000. So things escalated quite fast. And to people who'd been through trauma and sought out these courses and these workshops, what would the medical profession say about that, do you think? I did speak to a doctor and wellness practitioner in the podcast, Dr. Rom, who actually spoke about how often the medical establishment isn't hugely helpful when it comes to issues around trauma. And that's actually a strength that the wellness industry has because they talk about trauma a lot more and they have a lot more time to deal with those issues. But there is the danger when you're looking at practices, which especially when they involve actual genital stimulation or anything physical like that. The main reason also being that if you do have a history with trauma, you're likely to be unclear about your boundaries and what is and isn't appropriate. And that can leave you in a very vulnerable position. A lot of these wellness companies don't have rules or regulations guiding them. So that can be a real danger. And that's

pretty much what I saw happening with OneTaste. Now, I know you've been to some of these workshops. I actually haven't been to a workshop myself. What did you attend? I know of OneTaste. I've known about the company for many years. So I've heard a lot of people talk about it. They're no longer doing in-person workshops. Some former OneTaste members owned for me. And that's what I recorded for the podcast. OK, let's just hear what you recorded. I mean, is that woman at the point of climax there?

A lot of people will think, well, that does sound like it. Yeah, I'm not sure because One Taste also talked a lot about how the practice wasn't about climax and that was actually a very important part of OM and it's something that the co-founder Nicole Day-Done talked about a lot, that we have so much focus on climax that it takes away from the other benefits of orgasm. So by and large, the aim wasn't to climax within those 15 minutes.

So I'm not sure if she was on the point of climax, but within OM speak, it wouldn't matter if she was or not, because that's not the end goal. You mentioned Nicole Daydone. Who is she? Yeah, so Nicole is the co-founder of One Taste. She co-founded the company in 2004. Her background is quite interesting. She was studying semantics or linguistics.

She was studying to be a professor, and she also talked about how she was planning to become a Zen Buddhist nun. And then she met a Buddhist monk at a party who introduced her to a clitoral stroking practice. And there were a range of these practices happening in Northern California since the late 60s. So various practices which, you know, focused on stroking a woman's clitoris. And so Nicole had kind of gone to some of these different groups doing these practices and she decided to start her own version, which became orgasmic meditation.

She talked a lot about how in her sort of mid-20s, her father went to prison for molesting girls and that had a very big impact on her. She talks about how when she was, I think, 27, she received a call saying that he was dying in prison and this really pushed her to explore sexuality and she said about how she wanted to, you know, bring light into an area of the world

where there had been a lot of darkness. Naz, there are many, many troubling questions that many people, I think, will want to ask about all this. Did OneTaste help some women? Yeah. So in my reporting, most women I spoke to said that they found the practice of orgasmic meditation extremely beneficial. It helped them really get in touch with their bodies and explore their sexuality at a time in their life when they really needed that. So I'd say most women said that OM was one of the best things they ever did. The problem came to the company OneTaste, where practically

all those women said that OneTaste was extremely problematic and the company was damaging to them. And that's very much to do with the fact that the company had very predatory sales tactics. So people would really be kind of pressured into taking out money and going into debt to spend money on these very expensive courses. The women who worked at One Taste, a lot of them talked about being under pressure to reach these huge sales targets, being under pressure to own with potential clients. Sometimes women felt under pressure to have sex with potential clients. Sometimes women felt under pressure to have sex with potential clients. And that is something that happened as well. So there were really two different strands going on. There was the practice of own and then the company being one

taste. So, I mean, by and large, women said own was beneficial. I've also known a lot of women through the years who have, you know, maybe gone to a few one taste classes. Some of them found it really helpful. Some of them, it just really wasn't for them. But I think that's the distinction, the practice versus the company. And now the FBI is taking an interest. Why? Yeah, so they've been asking questions about one-taste activities. There was a expose in Bloomberg in 2018, which really went into some of these dynamics, including the predatory sales tactics and people being pressured into sort of sexual activities for sales. From my understanding, the things that we've uncovered, they seem to be taking an interest in areas such as sex trafficking,

violations of labour law, prostitution. So those are kind of where their inquiries have been centred around. Is One Taste still operating? Yeah, so we're a little bit unclear on this. They moved their courses to being solely online sort of mid to late 2018. So we're unclear if they are still operating or not and the reasons for that. In terms of what's happened to them, it appears that a lot of the people running One Taste are also running a retreat center in Northern California called The Land. I mentioned that Bloomberg did an article in the summer of 2018 and Nicole Day-Done pretty much disappeared after that article. So I've heard that over the past kind of two years, she's been cited in Bali, in Thailand, and she has been spotted back in California at The Land earlier this year as well. The last that we've heard is that she's currently in Italy.

Well, that was our reporter Nastaran Tavakoli-Farr talking about the co-founder of One Taste, Nicole Daydone. If you want to find out more, you can find the podcast on BBC Sounds. It is called The Orgasm Cult. Now, it is almost a decade since the start of the Syrian civil war. Wafa Mustafa is about to join us. She's a young Syrian refugee. She now lives in Berlin. She's recently spent time outside a German court where two Syrian officials are on trial. Wafa was outside surrounded by photographs. One of the images she had with her was that of her father, who was arrested in Syria on 2 July 2013 and hasn't been heard from since. Her story is just one of many, many Syrian women,

part of the group Families for Freedom, a woman-led movement launched back in 2017 by families whose loved ones have been detained or disappeared. We can talk to Wafa and to Quentin Somerville, the BBC's Middle East correspondent who joins us from Beirut. Wafa, first of all, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Tell us, first of all, a little bit about your father.

Why was he taken? Well, my father, his name is Ali Mustafa, and he was actually arrested just like many other Syrians because he was a human rights defender. And he was taken just for challenging the regime, for demanding freedom, for participating in this revolution of the people demanding freedom, democracy and justice in a state of law. And for seven years now, you have heard nothing from him at all. Yeah, I mean, today he completes 2,703 days. And unfortunately, I mean, for seven years, we've been trying everything. We've called the authorities. We've assigned lawyers.

We've paid tribes. But the regime says that they know nothing about him. So we unfortunately, we don't even know if he's still alive or not. Stay with us. Quentin, how many other people are in a similar position to that of Wafaa and her family? There are various estimates, June, and because the Syrian torture system is so endemic and so embedded within the government machinery and such a dark place, it's very difficult to put a hard figure on it. Anywhere from 75,000 to perhaps as many as 200,000 people have disappeared into this pit of despair. And I think the interesting thing about the

court cases which are happening in Germany, they're about historical cases, cases that happened in 2011 and 2012. But the reality is, as we've just been hearing from Waf, the pain for many Syrians is still alive and present. And not just that, these crimes are still being committed. People are still being disappeared in Syria, taken to these terrible prisons, enduring the most inhuman torture. And Syrian civilians, particularly in the northwest of Syria,

in Idlib province, are still facing hardship and being terrorised by aerial attacks from regime planes and from the war planes of Russia. Yes, I'm afraid with everything else going on in the world, we have shamefully forgotten the suffering of Syria and its people. Not everybody, of course, but I don't think I'm the only one who perhaps has forgotten. Can you tell us, Wafa, about the impact of your father's disappearance on your wider family? What's happened to your mother?

Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, we had to leave the country. We had to leave our home and friends and flee because we were also afraid for our own safety. Since me and my sister were also arrested before in 2011. But most importantly, we had to leave, we had just to leave our dad there. And yeah, I mean, now we're scattered all over the planet. And this, to be honest, has deprived us from being a family. We're not, we're not a family anymore. And I've said this before, this might be easy to say and easy to hear, but this is not easy to live. I'm sure it isn't you you absolutely are right to paint such a vivid and emotive picture of the suffering of the rest of your family do you I mean you must

worry about your dad every single day do you is it your first thought when you wake up? Well it is it is it is my it is actually my main thought every day now for 2,703 days. I mean, everything I do is actually about him, about the search for him, about the search for all other 130,000 detainees. Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do. I mean, you cannot think of anything else when someone, when a loved one is just, you don't even know anything about them. So this is the struggle. And unfortunately, this is the thing I think about before I sleep. And this is what I dream about. And this is what I think about when I wake up. You're still a very young woman you've made a life for yourself in Germany and you're also working for the organization Families for Freedom how do you see your future Wafa? Honestly I don't know I mean I mean this is one of the hardest questions I cannot think beyond beyond the search for my dad. I would like to. I mean,

I just graduated. But beyond campaigning for my dad's release, I actually cannot think of anything else. Quentin, is there any cause for optimism when we think of Syria? There is going to be in the Biden administration, a new American Secretary of State, a man called Antony Blinken. Might that mean something, anything? It might. Tony Blinken has gone on the record and said that the United States needs to get back into Syria, that Iran is there, Russia's there, Turkey's there, but the US hasn't even shown up. And as a result of that, the United States, and as it usually follows, the rest of the international community, have no leverage in Syria. So what we might see in a Biden administration is that leverage being applied he's mentioned

northwestern Syria that last rebel province with about three million people that the US might use its presence in Syria to safeguard the millions of people there he's also said that there might be the hope of some political change in Syria but let's remember that Bashar al-Assad and his his allies Russia and the Iranian regime have retaken most of the country and they really they're the victors at the moment and because of that absence and that absence wasn't just because of the Trump administration. Remember, President Obama balked at taking foreign action against Bashar al-Assad after his use of chemical weapons. That absence is something that will be very difficult to put right.

And of course, critics of the United States, it doesn't have a good record in the Middle East, and it certainly doesn't have a good record in the Middle East and it certainly doesn't have a good record in Syria. Well, I did say that the rest of the world may well have forgotten Syria and the conflict there. It is, of course, because we've all been focused on the pandemic. What do you know of how Covid is playing out in big cities like Damascus? The situation in Damascus is pretty grim at the moment. People face a choice. Do they spend the few pennies they have on buying bread, or do they buy face masks? And a friend has just returned from Damascus. Me, like many journalists, I'm banned from going to Damascus

because I've been to the non-regime areas. She said there people are poor. It feels like a much poorer city than it used to. It was really the jewel of the Middle East. And the economic situation is pretty grim. So even though Bashar al-Assad has managed to retake much of the country, it's a perfect victory. And even regime loyalists are now finding life there very, very difficult indeed.

And when it comes to COVID, you have a place like northwestern Syria, Idlib, where there are continuing attacks from Russian and regime planes, bombing hospitals, bombing schools, bombing marketplaces. And in the midst of this, you have a COVID pandemic where people are living in tents,

are getting sick, don't have access to proper health care. So there's a worry there that the rolling catastrophe that Syria has been from for the last 10 years will further descend as a result of the pandemic. Quentin, thank you very much. That's Quentin Somerville, BBC Middle East correspondent joining us from Beirut. Wafaa, I'm sure you're still in contact with people in Syria. What are they telling you about how things are? Yeah, I mean, nothing much to add. I mean, unfortunately, the conditions are horrific.

We have now what is called like a bread crisis. We've seen photos of people just during the pandemic that are just crowded in cages. What the government described is their way to actually organize civilians. We have shortages in water, in fuel, prices are just rising. And I mean, I still have family there. And it's just heartbreaking every time talking to them because these people who are not in detention centres, and it is that bad. It is that dire.

So I mean, when we talk about the pandemic and when it comes to detention centres, this is like a black hole. I think no one even knows what is the situation there. Wafa, thank you very much. And we really hope that you get some news soon. Thank you for talking to us. Wafa Mustafa, who's a Syrian refugee now living in Berlin and wanting news, of course, she wants news of her father disappeared since 2013. This is Woman's Hour. Good morning to you. Now, actually, following that,

this all seems, I suppose, a little bit parochial, but we wanted to focus on bickering and on how relationships have fared during lockdown. It's not been easy for any of us, actually, if we're honest. We can talk to Penny Mansfield, an expert on relationships from the relationships charity One Plus One, and joining us from Pembrokeshire, Deborah and perhaps her partner, Gary. Not certain whether Gary's going to join us or not. Depends how he's feeling. But we can certainly chat to Penny.

Now, Penny, I know that some of the online resources your charity offers, you've seen a real surge in uptake, haven't you? Yes, definitely. And it's just great to know that people do have those resources that they can log on to and use. What are you finding out about how people are faring in this period then from what you know? Well, I mean, it's obvious to all of us, isn't it? We are contained in ways that we weren't because of COVID, which means it restricts the amount of other contacts

we have besides our nearest and dearest who may not be as dear as they are near. And I think that affects everybody, whether you happen to be, you know, in your 20s, living with a partner, whether you're with a young family, whether you're a couple who are just enjoying the children leaving the nest, although if they've gone off to university, they'll be back again pretty quickly. Or, you know, you're nearing retirement or you're elderly and you're having to deal with the added impact of physical and mental frailty. Let's bring in Deborah. You wrote, I have to say, a very insightful and funny email to us, Deborah, about your situation. You and your partner moved to a different part of Wales, didn't you? Well, you could argue precisely the wrong time.

Yes, we moved in June of this year, which meant basically we haven't had any opportunity to meet any of the people in the village for any great length of time. We don't see a great many people because of where we are physically in Pembrokeshire. So, yes, it's not been the best time, I suppose, to make a new start in a new town. Yeah, I'm just going to quote here from your email. I realise that the bickering between me and my husband had reached an all-time nadir when I found myself secretly flicking the V's at him as I stomped up the stairs, silently cursing him with each step. A surprisingly satisfying, if ultimately empty, gesture as he sat in the living room, immobile, unoccupied, static again.

Okay, I mean, you're very honest. You're also happy to acknowledge that yours is not the most serious situation, is it, Deborah, thankfully? Yes. And I think I've been a bit unfair to Gary there. He's not always immobile and static. So what has your solution been to all this? Well, I found myself a job. We retired in 2017. I was a teacher. And as soon as I got to the age of 55, I thought, that's it, I'm done. I'm leaving work. I'll never work again. And now I've decided that I'm going to become what's called a housekeeping assistant rather than a cleaner in a holiday park for 11 precious hours a week. Right.

When we'll be able to have some space between us. Well, some space. And also then you'll have something to say when you come back. Well, exactly. Because we tend to hear news and gossip when we're together now. So in the evening, there's no sort of, well, what have you learned today time? So hopefully I'll be meeting some new people and I'll be bringing something fresh to the table each evening. Yeah, that's an important point, isn't it, Penny? It is hard to think of stuff to talk about at the moment. Well, yes, that isn't about Covid and how we're responding to it. Yeah, and this thing of being able to get out.

I mean, even if you're just sort of, you know, going for a walk around the park and you're going together and observing what others are doing it's about something that stimulates you to think about something other than just um you know being being together i suppose you're talking about your memories and i think that's quite interesting um i mean bickering is the stuff of many sitcoms um some very good ones actually on radio four and often that is about thinking about getting older and thinking about the past in a good way that can often be ways in which people can deal with humour and actually it brings back some touching good memories to share

and obviously maybe phone calls to old friends and things like that and then talking about what you've been talking about Yes, we need to acknowledge actually that bickering is both rather an intimate thing to do, and it's a performative thing to do as well, isn't it, Penny? Yes. And I think the thing is, I mean, bickering, you know, it is the stuff of life, but also it can verge into some fairly unkind and nasty kind of behaviour. And I suppose the key things is to bicker better, really. And I think we would say from all of our work

looking at conflict in relationships, the first thing is to try and resist the attacks which are all about the problem with you or just the silent treatment and to actually speak for yourself and say something like, you know, I'm feeling this. And I find that when I feel like this, it helps if you could be and have those kinds of conversations and trying to focus on what is our issue. I mean, our issue probably is that we're finding it difficult together. So what could we do about it?

What would make it work better for each of us? Yes. I think you would say, Deborah, that you acknowledge that neither you nor your partner think of yourselves as chief bickerer. You both think it's the other one who gets things started. Yes. That's the trouble with bickering, that each of the bickerers believes themselves to be the non-bickerer. I'm definitely not the one who is awkward or dense or picky i'm the one who just wants to get things done and if gary were more like me we'd never bicker there we are that's problem solved um okay i just want to bring another email in from a listener who says i think this is very interesting um and thank you by the way to the people who took the time to email us on this one my husband and i have solved the problem of bickering in lockdown by designating Wednesdays as row day. Any disagreements

are scheduled to be fought over on Wednesday. So around this time tomorrow, they'll be getting going. By the time Wednesday comes around, we've forgotten what we were unhappy about, or it has become insignificant. Often we forget about it until Thursday, by which time it's too late anyway. We began this system in March and actually it is working for us. OK, that's good. This from somebody else who says our relationship has changed for the better and the worse. Cooped up together since March in a mix of endless groundhog days and new discoveries uncomfortably colliding. I've discovered he's adopted many of the traits

we traditionally associate with mothers who, quotes, don't work. He's frustrated at being stuck at home, seems to shout at the children more readily, and is more irritable than I remember him being when he used to leave for the office every day. We are definitely more ragged with each other, but then sometimes magic happens and we'll have a quickie while the kids are at school this has happened all of three times she says um but by turns i have deduced i live with a tantrumy toddler a horny teenager and a grumpy old man he still makes me laugh though and i still love him both more and less than before penny i think that's brilliant that email yeah and i think about, I mean, don't we all live with grumpy old men? But I mean, I think that, and they probably say the same thing, but I think it's this thing about trying to find where there is humour and to try and keep that going. Because again, one of the reasons why

we have so many sitcoms is that they are very funny, particularly at the moment where the grumpy person or the person who seems to be creating most of the problems. And as I say, oscillates us some very important things, because out of dealing with these difficult times, we learn new things about each other and we rediscover the things that we love in people and actually recognise their imperfections. Lots of stuff coming in from you. Thank you. Anonymous says, my husband's allotment solves all our problems. Time to breathe for both of us. Well, I think that's, if you can have an allotment, that's wonderful. Of course, not everybody can. Mary says I've solved the problem

by just going out every morning between nine and 11 for a walk plugged in to live radio for I learn something every day that I then bring to the table. We are now watching less TV. There you go. That's also a possibility. So can I ask you a question, Penny, about older couples, perhaps couples who really are, as you outlined at the beginning, having to spend so much more time together than they might have been used to in the past, perhaps feeling frail, perhaps actually being frail. Is there any advice for people who perhaps might be entering the seventh decade of married life at this time? Well, I think that thing about physical and mental frailty is that for the person who's more afflicted, that obviously requires the other partner to suppress some of the kind of

irritations, to stop taking over the whole thing about resentment. And then where does all that go? And maybe having somebody that as a friend that they can talk to, where they can feel that they can express all these very conflicting emotions that they don't have to then just express to the person who is, in quotes, the cause of it. And obviously people who are mentally frail can actually have behaviours that can be extremely challenging to the person that has to focus on them, which is why not being able to have people who, you know, places where people can go. And I think this thing about finding the ways in which you can be away from each other, you know, whether it is the allotment

or, you know, it's planting bulbs or it's, you know, going up four times a day to the local do-it-yourself shop to buy nails you don't need. I don't know. But we need to find the freedoms that actually can keep us going. Of course, but there will be some people

who are not able really to get out at all. And interestingly, we've had emails from a couple of disabled listeners during the course of this conversation. I've just seen them saying, remember us. This is even harder for us. We don't want to forget them at all. Absolutely.

And I wonder how much sharing things in terms of groups. I mean, a lot of charities that are there to support people with disabilities and with health problems, you know, have ways in which you can go online and chat with others. So maybe that could be a help. I mean, certainly, you know, people do find chatting to somebody who isn't personally involved can but actually understands it can actually help them relieve some of those irritations that then spill out into the relationship at home. Joy says, this is on Twitter, just laughed out loud at the excellent bickering systems explained by couples on Women's Hour. My favourite so far, definitely ROW Wednesday. Yes, that's the system that one of our emailers maintains has really worked a treat. You actually timetable a ROW for Wednesday by the time the day rolls around. On the whole, you can't remember what it was you were going to disagree about.

That could be one you could take up, Deborah. What about that? Yeah. Yes, maybe. You don't sound very sure, to be honest. No, I seem to like the ongoingness of it throughout the week. What, did you say you liked it? Yes.

Well, as you're here on national radio, let's hear about Gary's good points. Come on, because the poor man, I know there was a possibility he might come on. Yes. Well, as you're here on national radio, let's hear about Gary's good points. Come on, because the poor man, I know there was a possibility he might come on. Actually, we haven't really got time for him anyway, but he's probably a lovely bloke. What's the best thing about Gary? How good he is with people. People like him. People laugh with him. He's got a great sense of humour. He's really quick witted and he makes me laugh all the time.

There you go. Not so bad. Gary must be missing other people then. Yes, he is. Absolutely. Well, yeah, but I'm sure Deborah's wonderful. Yes, I know. She's one person. Yeah, that's true. Thank you both very much. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much to Penny Mansfield from the charity One Plus One. There are links on the Women's Hour website, which you might find helpful. And you also heard from Deborah in Pembrokeshire, who's about to start that job to get away from Gary, but also, crucially, to bring some information back to the table in the evening to have something to talk to him about. Let's move seamlessly on to taxidermy,

which is becoming more popular with younger women. And Elle Kay is just 27. Elle, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Now, you took up the trade, the profession, actually, at 22, didn't you? Can I just ask really simply why? So I always had visions that I would be a biologist or a vet, and I was not a naturally gifted scientist.

So it actually happened when I went off to study sculpture and fine art at university, and I was still interested in animal biology and design and form of animals. So somebody suggested I try it for the purpose of my practice. And it combined all of my interests in anatomy and biology and the sculptural aspect of being on a fine art course. So it was the perfect marriage. And it's very organic. It doesn't feel obscure to me.

No. And some obvious questions, but people will want them answered. I know you specialise in birds. How do you find them? How do they get to you? Okay, so I only work on birds that die of natural causes. That's very important to me. So my birds come from zoos, they come from breeders and rehabilitation centres as well. And people want them to go through the process because? So all the work that I do is on commission. So they are mostly clients who collect art, who have seen the value and sort of intrinsic beauty of having something from the natural world

inside their homes. I do a lot of work for educational purposes, work for film as prop hire, that sort of thing. So it really actually is used a lot more than I think people realise. Your work is it's beautiful what you do. I'm absolutely entranced by the faces. How do you do the faces? So that's really, thank you very much for the compliment. That's really the hardest part. All taxidermists strive for likeness. And I think, you know, being able to capture that sense, that essence of something being once alive. Yes. It's really, you know, that transient moment between being still and moving. I always think that good taxidermy is taxidermy that you think if you just look away, it might just come alive like your teddy bears might have done when you were a little girl. And I think it's just a bit of experience. You know, over time, you figure out how to get the most lifelike appearance,

you use a lot of reference imaging. So we're looking, constantly looking at live animals in order to inform what we do. Let's say then you are working on a peacock. I know you have done peacocks. They are absolutely magnificent. It comes to you, what's the next stage in the process? You've got the body there, then what happens? Right, so usually we keep all of our inventory in freezers just because that way it puts it into limbo and the decomposition process doesn't begin. But taxidermy is essentially a three-part process. So you have the skinning or the processing of the skin, you have preserving the skin and then you have the skinning or the processing of the skin, you have preserving the skin, and then you have the model making aspect. And then that preserved skin gets dressed over

the model that you create. And we take anatomically accurate casts or we use referencing to get that anatomical model. So it's really those three processes with a couple more complexities thrown in there. Is it gory and messy and smelly? No, not at all. A lot of people are under the impression that we're doing an autopsy. So we're not doing an autopsy. We don't need any of the innards or the organs. Ideally, the carcass needs to stay intact so that we're able to take perfect measurements from it and then use those to inform our model. So it can be done really cleanly. We only need the skin. I see. And it's possible, again, these are probably idiotic questions, it's possible to keep the skin intact?

Yes, with a little bit of experience. All we're doing is essentially removing it from the carcass. So you can just do that really carefully, extracting it with a scalpel and just kind of tracing the natural curvature of the anatomy. And how long might that process take? So it varies depending on each type of specimen. Typically a taxidermist won't do the whole process in one go because there are various components that need to be applied to the skin in order to preserve it and that would change

depending on whether it's a mammal or a bird. It might need pickling or tanning so usually you pop it back into the freezer if you're not ready to do the whole thing in one go. But usually, you know, a small bird might take two days. A peacock might be up to two weeks of work, just to give you a bit of time scale. Yeah, and a peacock would cost? So a peacock can be anywhere from about £800 right up to £2,000, depending on, you know, the pose that you're going for. There are different sort of types of peacock that you can get. So a white peacock or a Java peacock. And they will add premium if they're a little bit rarer. Now, I said at the beginning,

this was something that was interesting more and more young women. Instagram, I gather, it's playing a really big part here. Absolutely. So I mostly promote myself through Instagram. I think the reason for this is that because it's a platform that is essentially a photographic archive, it really lends itself to what is essentially a very visual medium you know we need to be able to see it in in a context where clients can imagine you know a beautiful bird on their mantelpiece in their study and take it away from just just the typical vision of having it in long museum halls and the idea that some men i'm sure all, but some men in the profession have taken umbrage at the number of young women showing an interest. Why do you think that is?

Well, it is rather heartbreaking when that does happen. And I've been on the receiving end of that recently. And it's very painful. I can only presume that this is coming from those who don't want to see the industry become more inclusive and diversive, really. Can I ask what happened to you recently? Well, it was just comments made about my being a woman and being sort of situated in this industry. So really the gender is the issue that they, well, that's the thing they take issue with. But I mean, it just seems ridiculous why would this be an exclusively male profession what is it about the profession that might make it go on? I think

if I just take you back very briefly if that's okay I suppose taxidermy was always considered a bit of a trade and you know that was always considered quote-unquote men's work and so over time as taxidermy has evolved to be more of an art form and therefore reaching this bigger demographic, it's reaching more people and more people are realising that they can carve out jobs for themselves. You know, we've got advancements in STEM and people of all diversities are looking at these new roles and thinking, I might want to do that, whereas previously they might not have had access to that. So perhaps it's just people not wanting it to be progressive,

wanting to keep it this kind of sacred space. Right. Extraordinary that anybody should or would object to you being part of it. I just think the talent is just incredible. And I hope people, they can find you on Instagram, can't they? I'm sure. That's correct. Yeah. There we are. LK, taxidermist, only 27. Such talent. It's not something you know much about. And of course, I don't know much about it.

And when you actually see what people like Ella are capable of, it is astonishing. Rose says, finally, vindication for my taxidermy interest, as Woman's Hour says more young women are indeed taking it up. Yes, they are, which is why we did the item. And in fact, I've got another email here from a listener called Jasmine. I'm a taxidermist based in Hastings, started my business in 2007. The emergence of young women in taxidermy is not new, but issues that face us currently are online trolling from other male taxidermists.

And also there is a huge lack of diversity in the taxidermy community. So there you go, Jasmine echoing what Elle said. I mean, who knew? Kate says, how wonderful. I've just sat down to tackle a woodpecker and she enclosed a colourful image of the said woodpecker, perhaps not looking its best, it has to be said, but no doubt Kate will restore it. I'm a 51-year-old amateur taxidermist, she says, and an avid Woman's Hour listener. So I was delighted to hear this interview. Well, Kate, isn't it wonderful when we finally reach those little places that you never thought we'd get to, which actually takes me back to our first conversation this morning. Anyway, Rob says, clearly, traditionally an occupation for stuffy old men, fearful of losing their skins to young women keen to carve out a new career.

Yeah, thank you very much. And this is some advice from Helen. Quick note for Jane. I enjoyed the piece on bickering and indeed hearing Elle talking about taxidermy. It reminded me of a ploy I invented back in my 20s to get rid of dull men at parties. I'd tell them I was a trainee taxidermist and ramble on until I bored them to death and got rid of them. Then I found out more about taxidermy and discovered that you can deep freeze posed animals as long as they're not too fatty. Then you can dry them like instant coffee, so they end up like a sort of honeycomb, but posed.

You can touch up any lost colours later. I'm not sure if Elle does this method, as well as the skinning. It seems a lot easier. Needless to say, I never did any actual taxidermy, but it was quite a laugh at the time. So that's Helen's tip for all those Christmas parties. Most of us won't be going to. That's how you can get rid of a so-called dull man.

And of course, at this point, in terms of balance, I have to tell you, dull women do exist. Apparently, I've never met one or ever interviewed one, but apparently there are some out there. Bickering. Joe says, I'm a couple therapist and I've got various thoughts. In lockdown, I think some couples are bickering more. Depends how you define bickering, but in my mind, it's a way of safely keeping alive unresolved irritations with each other, of which there are probably more at the moment. It doesn't necessarily deal with them, though.

It's a kind of staying in the shallow end of getting into an argument, and bickering may mean different things to different individuals in a couple. E.g., for some, it might be just copying what their parents did, Yes, I think that's interesting. Maria, you might be interested to explore what those in the disabled community have to teach those who are experiencing isolation. We've had to find ways through stress and worry and loneliness and fear of missing out and many have found new ways to cope. Maybe you could consider the disabled community and our experience at some time.

Yes, thank you for that. And yes, we should. Emma says, we moved from Essex to Lincolnshire in January with three small children. It's been a difficult transition for us and we only just got settled when we went into the first lockdown. My children have settled well into their new school, but I am extremely lonely and I haven't been able to meet anybody. It's put huge strain on my relationship with my husband. I almost resent him for being out of the house at work all day while I'm stuck at home with my toddler.

I know this is a selfish way of looking at it and I should just be grateful that I'm safe but really I am struggling. Emma I'm sorry to hear that and actually this is um I by no means dismiss what you're going through because when things were more normal there'd be all kinds of play groups you could join and people you could meet in the park and elsewhere that you could perhaps invite into the home or they would invite you. Of course, that's not really encouraged at the moment or just plain not allowed. So I'm sorry, that's a tough one. We have to just pin all our hopes on what we all hope is going to be a glorious spring. I always like Easter anyway. I think the Easter of 2021 is going to be a very special time. And hang on in there, Emma.

But thank you for listening to us and reacting to what we talked about today. Penny makes a good point. How selfish all that bickering stuff sounded. There are a lot of people moaning about how dreary it is. But it makes me stomp off out into the garden and listen no longer. My husband died two years ago, so we don't have the chance to bicker, learn more about each other, or just chat about the ghastly politicians or any of those other wonderful things. Well, yeah, quite right, Penny, and thank you for reminding us of people in your situation. Alan says, and this is another person in the same situation, I buried my wife at the beginning of lockdown.

I would give anything for her to be here to bicker with, which we actually never did when she was alive. Patricia, coming up to our 40th wedding anniversary, we sometimes start calling each other the bickertons, but we never go to sleep annoyed with each other. Separate beds are a boon. We have our own space, no barrier to our romantic life. Thank you for that. Linda, my husband's over 70, has a lot of health issues. I'm definitely a grumpy old woman at times and I drive him mad by shouting at the radio.

We don't sleep in the same room as he coughs a lot and I'm having a 20-year menopause which means I'm constantly taking 20-year menopause, which means I'm constantly taking the quilt off and opening windows. Not a great recipe for dealing with isolation, but we have dealt with the daily grind in various ways. Firstly, we adopted a rescue dog after our old dog died in May, and that's helped us make a point of walking together every day. I share my room with her, and that makes me less likely to be awake reading at 3am and then touchy the next day. She sounds great. I wish we knew the name of the dog. It's always worth knowing their names.

Secondly, we've tried to remember how very fortunate we are. Our adult children are having a tough time during the pandemic with redundancy, marital breakup, health issues and mortgage issues all piling up. Our attempts to help them have brought us closer. And never, says Linda, underestimate the benefit of a garden or allotment. Our garden's been a godsend and it's also helped us feel purposeful about growing food. Yes, I think another listener mentioned allotments, didn't she? And I know how important they can be and how helpful. Leave the last word on this one to Miriam.

We're getting on better since I allocated the husband a staff toilet. I think we'll leave that one there. Tomorrow, Nicola Beckford is presenting the programme and Nicola will be talking, amongst other things, about the women's building, which is going to be put on the site of the old Holloway Prison. Some discussion going on now about what exactly that building will look like, how big it will be, what it will be able to do. So that's one of the subjects tomorrow.

Also, she'll have three guests on the Women's Poetry Prize and we'll have the brilliant Lynn Truss telling Nicola more about the life and times of the fantastic writer Stella Gibbons, whose romance, My American, is going to be serialised on Radio 4 next week. That's tomorrow and I'll see you again on Friday. Have a good couple of days. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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