Woman's Hour - Takeover 2019 - Harriet Wistrich, lawyer and founder of Centre for Women's Justice

Episode Date: July 23, 2019

Harriet Wistrich is a human rights lawyer and founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice. Her cases are consistently in the news – the fight to keep the so-called ‘black cab rapist’, John Worboys in prison and the release of Sally Challen, who had been imprisoned for the murder of her abusive husband. As part of our Takeover week Harriet discusses surviving a disabled sibling, her admiration for Claudia Clare a ‘subversive ceramicist’, the treatment of women accused of lying about a rape allegation, and why Zem Zem Mohammed, an Eritrean refugee, is someone she holds in great esteem.She may not be a household name but we know her cases well. How does a feminist lawyer relax who works tirelessly for the good of women she believes are being mistreated by the criminal justice system? And what compels her to continue to seek justice? When Harriet Wistrich was just eleven years old her disabled brother, Matthew, died. It was the 1960’s and a time when disabled people were institutionalised, shut away and not spoken about. She speaks to her friend’s daughter, Atiha Sen Gupta, a playwright, who also lost a disabled brother, Nihal, in 2001 when he was 17 and she was 13. What did their different experiences of loss highlight for Harriet in terms of grief, guilt and how society's attitudes to disability changed in that 30 years?As a human rights lawyer Harriet’s focus is on the treatment of women in the criminal justice system. What happens to women who have alleged rape and who then find themselves charged with perverting the course of justice when it’s suspected they have lied? She discusses how the system needs to change with Gillian Jones QC who worked on the case of Jemma Beale.Zem Zem Mohammed escaped Eritrea at the age of 18 and spent five traumatic years crossing the Sahara to Sudan and then to Libya and to the UK to claim asylum via Italy and Malta. Now 37, settled with her husband and two children, she works as a Health and Safety inspector on the railways at nights wearing a hard hat over her hijab. Her extraordinarily resilience and entrepreneurial spirit was something Harriet Wistrich wanted to celebrate as part of her Woman’s Hour takeover Claudia Clare is an artist who uses her ceramics to record and celebrate stories of feminist activism. We find out why she thinks ceramics are the best way to be what she says is subversive.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Harriet Wistrich Interviewed Guest: Atiha Sen Gupta Interviewed Guest: Gillian Jones Interviewed Guest: Zem Zem Mohammed Interviewed Guest: Claudia Clare

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Hi, this is Jane Garvey, and this is day two of the Woman's Hour guest editor takeover for 2019. It is Tuesday the 23rd of July 2019. If you missed yesterday's day one of takeover, Nadia Hussain was in charge. Loads of you did hear that and enjoyed it. We talked about everything from comfort rabbits to the importance of faith and prayer. Really enjoyed that. So if you missed Nadia, make sure you listen via BBC Sounds. Tomorrow, Jenny is going to be ordered around

by the teenage campaigner Amica George. On Thursday, the children's laureate Cressida Cowell is in charge. And on Friday, I'm back on the programme in the company of Danny Cotton, Commissioner of the London Fire Brigade. She's my guest editor at the end of the week. But today, the human rights lawyer and feminist Harriet Wistrich was in charge. She's the founder and director of the Centre for Justice for Women. She's been in the news lately. You'll remember her involvement in the campaign to keep the serial rapist John Warboys behind bars. And she campaigned, too, for the release of Sally Challen.

There'll be more about that in the course of the programme. The first question I put to Harriet, and there will be more from Harriet towards the end of the podcast today, that most of our listeners will know about her work, but what else would she like to tell everybody listening? Well, the reason I set up the Centre for Women's Justice was because there was a huge gap really around the issue of violence against women and state accountability. And I'd worked for many years in challenging police and criminal justice failings just across the board. of violence against women, the failure of rape investigations, the failure of prosecutions, the discrimination of women within the criminal justice system, there hasn't been much expertise. And so we set this centre up and filled a massive gap, actually. And there's a huge, huge demand for the work we're doing and the method that we're approaching, which is very much

a collaborative approach. So we don't see lawyers as the experts. Lawyers are informed by the frontline women's sector, by survivors and activists and other experts. We are going to talk about some of your interests and the things you think are important on the programme. It's not all serious. I'm delighted to say we've got one of your favourite ceramicists with us in the studio. We're going to talk about political pots, I think would be one way of describing them. They're much more than that, but we'll talk about them. And we'll also hear, well, it's a story of survival, actually, and triumph over enormous adversity. This is a lady called Zemzem Mohamed, who you came into contact with during the course of your work. An amazing life story. And we'll hear her

experience on the programme as well today. If you want to get involved on social media you can of course it's at BBC Women's Hour on Instagram and Twitter or you can email the programme via our website. Can we talk about the case of Sally Challen because I think that is one that will really resonate with with so many people listening. A difficult case in lots and lots of ways a woman who killed her abusive husband. They'd been married for decades. Yes, it was an incredibly challenging case and it took many years before we were able to find grounds of appeal. I've actually worked over the past 25 years with a number of different cases of women who have been driven to kill somebody,

a husband or a partner who was very, very abusive to them. And, you know, these cases are incredibly difficult once somebody gets convicted of murder. Women are judged very harshly in the criminal justice system, particularly if they commit violent acts. In relation to Sally Challen, what we were dealing with was somebody who, where the physical violence was not prominent or very evident at all. Although there had been. He had raped her, hadn't he? He had. Yes, he had indeed. And that was not something that was even brought up at the previous trial. trial but it was only a kind of background threat of that physical violence whereas she

was subject to a very coercive and controlling relationship and we weren't able to really put that case forward until after the law changed. So she was convicted in 2011 but the law changed at the end of 2015. And we were then able to argue, well, actually, people didn't have any understanding of the operation of coercive controlling behavior. So they weren't able to articulate her experience of being controlled as actually a form of abuse and once we were able to articulate that we then built that into the argument at the Court of Appeal and its impact on her mental health. The dogged nature of so much of your work is something that really impresses me. You just have to keep at it. What gives you the strength? Where does it all come from? I think that it's just when i see an injustice and um i i find it really really hard um not to

you know if i think there is a solution and if they think there is something wrong i find it hard not to just sort of try and keep pursuing you've always been like this have you um i i i guess so i i i mean certainly in my work I will, you know, where I feel and where I connect with somebody who is a client and I feel that this is something that is really really wrong I will look at every angle really to try and find a solution

What surprised me was, I must admit, I thought you'd gone to university and become a lawyer it wasn't actually the case, you didn't enter the law until you were relatively mature, why was that? Well I'd never thought of becoming a lawyer, what I actually wanted to do was go into the media so here I am and that was really because I think my my predominant driving force is is a commitment to feminism and to to the liberation of women and I felt that it would be through the medium of film or the media that that would be the best way to try and bring about change.

But that was never something that felt very possible because of the way the media is. And so in the end, I got involved in a campaign which was actually around the Sarah Thornton case originally and then that of Kirinji Talawalia. Who was Sarah Thornton? Sarah Thornton was a woman who killed her husband back in the late 80s and she said she'd been abused by him and that the court hadn't taken that into account.

And there was another case by Southall Black Sisters around Kirinjit Alawalia and that whole issue of women who kill their abusive partners really came to the fore. It was through our campaigning with that that I then started thinking a bit about the law. And it was when we were written to by a young woman in prison called Emma Humphreys that I agreed to sort of work with the lawyer to help bring that

case about. And that was a life changer for me and a game changer in many ways. Now, we haven't heard so far much about your family and we're going to move on now to talk about in particular, well, you have two brothers, you had two brothers. One is now living, I think, in Israel. and the other was um your disabled brother who unfortunately died when he was just 11 uh well i was 11 he was 14 yeah forgive me sorry um and tell us a little bit about him so um my brother my older brother matthew um had um at an early age he had um brain tumours. And, you know, he was actually, you know, high risk, but my parents were able to find a surgeon from the United States, actually, who was able to perform quite a dangerous operation, particularly around his functioning, mainly mental disabilities, or as we used to call it in those days, mentally handicapped. But you'd describe it as learning disabilities now and behavioral problems that resulted.

And, you know, it was quite challenging for my family to have a child who had those sorts of special needs. Was there an element of shame about it? Well, I think my parents were, you know, kind of quite liberal about it. But I think for a younger sister, seeing being in the company of somebody who behaved in a way that was perceived by me as embarrassing. So I kind of wanted to hide and pretend I wasn't connected. And I think that was probably quite an issue for me as a child that I kind of didn't want to sort of be connected or associated with that. Because you know, when you're children, you don't want to be different from other kids. And so I guess that that was quite a significant part of my childhood was dealing with that. And also, obviously, to some extent, my family, my parents had to be focused a lot on Matthew because of his special needs.

And when he died, how was it dealt with? Well, you know, it was obviously a shock. We weren't expecting it. I think earlier on my mum, you know, was expecting that he might die because of, you know, having gone through these operations and so on. But by the time he died, he was actually doing really well and he was in a school community where he he was actually thriving so it was a big shock and it was obviously you know hugely traumatic again for me I think that I um uh struggled really with um uh again with that thing of of difference I remember uh going into

school and we were had to go off uh off for a few days because he died up in Scotland to the funeral and my parents had given me a note to give to the teacher and I didn't give the note to the teacher because I was so embarrassed about it and we just you know it's just like I didn't want people to know and I remember some girl saying oh you know why are you going away and is it something that's happened to your brother and I just I was absolutely mortified which is awful really that you feel like that but that just was the reaction that I had as a as a kid at that time. So I think it's really important that that we want to get across you want to talk today about what it's like to have

a disabled sibling and also how if if unfortunately they do pass away, how that is dealt with. And with us in the studio is somebody I have met before, actually. It's good to see you again, Athea Sengupta, who is a playwright. And how, Athea, do you know Harriet? So Harriet and my mum are friends and they've been campaigners together for a long time. So I've met Harriet through my mum.

Who was involved in the Kirin Jitala Waliya campaign I mentioned earlier. Yeah, with the Southall Black Sisters. Southall Black Sisters, yeah. Okay, got you. That's the connection. And your brother Nihal died in 2001. That's correct.

Yeah, he died when he was 17 and I was 13. Right, okay. So very similar experience to Harriet's in some ways. Hearing Harriet's story, do you recognise some of that? I do, and I also felt a strong sense. I think when I was younger, I was very defensive of my brother. So I remember going to India when we were younger and lots of people were staring at him and it felt like a freak show. And I remember staring back at them because I wanted to kind of defend his honour, as it were.

But as I got towards my, he died when I was 13, but as I crept towards my teenage years, I started feeling embarrassed and I wanted to fit in and fitting in meant not having, you know, disabled brothers or disabled siblings who, you know, they were a marker of difference. And I feel very sad that I felt that way. I thought when we talked, actually, I was struck. So when I reached out to Theo when her brother died and we had this conversation about her experience

and I actually thought that you were much more mature about it than I had been. But I think in retrospect it also reflects the huge changes that have happened around awareness of disability. So I was a child, a small child in the 1960s, where disability, I think, was much more hidden and not spoken about. And not celebrated at all. And not celebrated and inclusion wasn't a thing. Your brother actually went to a mainstream school, didn't he? Yeah, so I definitely agree with you, Harriet. There has definitely been a paradigm shift

from the medical model of disability to the social model, which the social model doesn't look at the person as the problem, but society that disables disabled people. And my brother brother my mum fought a campaign to get my brother into mainstream education and he enjoyed several years in a you know school with disabled and non-disabled peers alike yeah which is obviously a huge advance and important although i think what remains what was i'm sure the case with with your sibling too your brother is that people need advocates don't they unfortunately not everybody does have one not true in your brother's is that people need advocates, don't they? Unfortunately, not everybody does have one. Not true in your brother's case,

I hear from the sound of things. Yes, he had my mum. Quite, and I'm sure you as well to a degree. But you say you weren't ashamed or embarrassed. You were defensive of him. I was defensive of him at the beginning when I was a child. But I think when I became more teenage, in my pre-teenage, then it became a thing of, you know, because I think when you're a teenager,

you want to fit in and you want to not have anything that sets you apart. And did you feel in any way sidelined by him and by the demands he put on your mum and dad? I definitely think so. And when I was a child, I think I felt a jealousy that he was taking all the attention and all the resources, which now I understand is completely legitimate. But I do wish someone had just taken me aside and said,

this is why your sibling is getting more attention. It's not a personal thing, as it were. I think when you're young, it can feel very personal. And when Harriet spoke to you about all that because she'd been through something similar, what did it mean to you? It meant the world. And I think I do what Harriet does now to other friends of mine.

So we've lost a few young people in our circle. And I've always, my first instinct is to always reach out to the siblings because I think sometimes the siblings can get overlooked yeah did you feel I mean honestly your parents obviously did their best yes no I mean I I I haven't no criticism of my parents and they've they really put a lot into it and they set up a a after Matthew died, Matthew Wisterich Trust, which gave money to disabled kids to go on. My mum's done the same thing with the Michal Armstrong Trust. Yeah, and my mum was a governor at special needs schools as well. So, you know, it's absolutely no criticism of them.

I just think that, you know, I probably had the best possible environment. But even with that, all of that there, I think that the attitudes are so difficult and that it's really quite a struggle as a kid to deal with that. I mean, you know, there may be certain benefits. One thing that my mum said was that, you know, after your brother died, we were so kind of enmeshed in the grief and stuff

that we didn't really sort of concentrate too much on worrying about what happened, you know, to our other kids or doing that thing that a lot of middle-class parents in particular do about to make sure they get their exams and they do this and they do that. They were kind of quite liberal. They must put things in perspective. Yeah, they put things in perspective. And so, actually, it kind of both me and my brother have gone on on very different paths.

But, you know, I've sort of gone on to the radical feminist lesbian and my brother is a Hasidic Jewish fundamentalist living in Israel. So it can be more different. But we both actually, you know, still talk to each other and get on. I was going to ask you about that. Sorry, no, go on. I was going to ask, Harriet, if you talk about your brother with your other brother, is that something that you... We do a bit, but actually I think Daniel, my other brother,

was better at talking about Matthew than I was. I always found it quite difficult. My parents used to say, you never talk about your brother. I'm trying to put that right now. That's good. Athea, thank you very much. Thank you. We really welcome your involvement today to say you never talk about your brother. I'm trying to put that right now. That's good. Thank you very much. We really welcome your involvement today. Thank you very much for being here. It's Women's Hour Takeover Week and the guest editor today is the feminist

lawyer and campaigner Harriet Wistrich at BBC Women's Hour on Instagram and Twitter. Now on the front pages of many of the papers today, the story of Carl Beach. Now this is the front pages of many of the papers today, the story of Carl Beach. Now, this is the man who has been revealed to be a complete fantasist, Harriet. Just explain to anyone who hasn't seen the news or heard it so far today who Carl Beach is.

Yeah, so Carl Beach was a man who became known as Nick, who made allegations against very high profile people. I mean, the highest profile people possible, including Ted Heath, of being involved in a paedophile ring. And those allegations were investigated and taken seriously by the police. But eventually, that investigation collapsed. And subsequently, he was prosecuted for perverting the course of justice and yesterday was convicted of those crimes. Right, which is both timely and in a way, I suppose, almost unfortunate, bearing in mind what you want us to talk about now, which is? Well, I actually want to talk about women who make rape complaints, who are prosecuted for perverting the course of justice. Because they are accused of making them up. Because they're accused of making them up.

And the reason I wanted to raise that issue is I do a huge amount of work around supporting rape complainants and they face a massive uphill struggle and are treated, I mean, they feel they're being disbelieved all the time. They're treated as suspects. We have the rape data download issue that's come up recently, which feels like they're under scrutiny. And then, and we also know that we live in a society where there is a culture of disbelief around rape and sexual violence. And that getting justice is incredibly hard.

Right, well, we need to bring in the guest you've chosen on this subject, who I interviewed a little earlier this morning. It is Gillian Jones QC, and here she is responding to my question about how common these cases actually are. I think in reality the research shows that those who actually make false allegations of rape are few and far between. The reality is there's no official definition of what makes up a false allegation of rape and it can in fact cover everything from those who for example are the intoxicated, can't really remember, through to those who don't have injuries, those who perhaps

report late, those for, who have vulnerabilities such as mental health difficulties or learning disabilities. And so what they're perceived as by the general population, and indeed people who investigate these offences, can be a whole range of people who then fall out of the system incorrectly. Now, plenty of people charged with rape, and that's actually in itself quite rare to be charged with rape, for it to proceed to a court case. Many people charged with rape and appearing in court on that charge are not found guilty of rape. But that doesn't mean that the complainant, the person who accused them of rape, was lying, does it? Absolutely not. The position, of course, is once you get into the criminal

justice system, the jury have to be sure, which means beyond reasonable doubt, that the person they're trying is guilty. That's a very high standard and it's not a reflection necessarily on the truth or not of the complaint. It's on whether they feel it's been proved. How often in an average year, say, are women accused of making up rape allegations and charged with that offence? Very rarely, actually, to charge. Many fall away in the investigative stage. What does that mean, fall away? That means, in effect, the cases are looked at at the point where they're reported, the police investigate them, and they don't proceed to charge. So instead, they make a decision at that stage that it's a false allegation or can't be proved. Can I just also chip in here that we know that there is only a 2% conviction rate of those cases at the moment, of those cases that are reported to the police.

And many, many women don't even report because they fear they will be disbelieved. And there is a very, very strong culture of disbelief around rape and sexual abuse. And so many myths and stereotypes feed into the perception of those investigating and prosecuting as well as the women themselves. I know, I read the newspapers every day and read news online, and there are women who do make up allegations of rape. You might say, many of our listeners would say, those cases are somewhat over-reported. What would either of you say about that?

I would absolutely agree with that point. I think that they do exist, but they are very, very unusual. And they are often made a great example of. And this is, I think, a reaction to those that cry out about the over-prosecution of rape and they need to sort of point these cases out to sort of show examples. But of course, it reinforces the culture of disbelief and that's the problem with the kind of over-reporting of these cases. Why do you think, Gillian, somebody, woman or man, might make up an accusation like this? Well, it's long set in history and in literature, isn't it? From the scorned individual who seeks revenge, which are most rare, all the way through to the young, the vulnerable, those with difficulties. And whether or not they truly are making a false complaint is another thing,

or whether in fact they've been subject to something but not necessarily the the offence they're reporting and when they looked the cps did some research back in 2013 as to what what these cases were why they were being categorized in that way and there's a large number which were under 21 had vulnerabilities um had mental health difficulties, and or they themselves weren't the first person who reported it. And whether or not it's truly a false complaint or whether in fact they then got cold feet, which is the point that Harriet makes, that they then fear they're not going to be believed.

Perhaps they'd had a drink. Perhaps they're unsure. Perhaps they've delayed in reporting. And they start to doubt themselves. There is also, and the actual CPS guidance says this, but I've seen cases where they haven't actually followed it, that there has to be a certainty of that the rape took place. Many women are unsure about whether consent took place. They feel something wasn't right about this encounter, you know, especially if they were drunk or drugged at the

time I think the other point to make is that rape can cause and sexual abuse can cause extreme trauma and also if you have a history of being abused in the past you may have complex post traumatic stress disorder that that trauma actually can affect a memory in the way in which you recount things and there can be a confusion of the order of things that come about. So sometimes an account can come across as really strange and inconsistent, but that doesn't amount to a deliberate lie. What about anonymity in these cases? What would either of you say about that?

Because you do lose your anonymity if you are somebody who has been accused of making a false allegation of rape. That's right. I think it's wholly illogical. I think it needs to be looked at. I think it's something that Parliament needs to address. If you're a victim of rape, you are entitled to anonymity for life. And that stems back from the 70s and the Heilbronn Committee that looked at that. However, the moment that you become the defendant, where you are being questioned as to the truth of your complaint, in those circumstances, you lose anonymity. It seems to me at that stage, you're prejudging the outcome. So you're still somebody who's alleged, I have been raped, the jury have yet to convict you and may well acquit you, and yet you lose your right to anonymity. Well, what about the juries and the way perhaps in

some cases the juries are directed by judges? Myths and stereotype directions in rape cases are now routine. That in effect seeks to ensure that juries don't bring stereotypes about how people sexually behave and react to non-consensual behaviour. Again it seems to us in cases involving this type of allegation where it's alleged there's a false complaint, the jury should be given the same directions, so that when they assess the truth or not of that complaint, they don't bring misconceptions into the jury room, such as how do women react? How do they recall? How do they report? And being a repeat victim of rape does not mean you are a liar. Harriet?

Yes, and I think the problem is, and this is really the issue I wanted to bring to the fore, that we have over the years developed a set of guidelines to encourage women to come forward to report rape and to ensure that rape trials are fair in the light of the fact that we have this culture of disbelief and we have myths and stereotypes. Now what happens the moment a woman is arrested and interviewed and prosecuted for perverting the course of justice, all those protections fall

away. And suddenly, instead of the person on trial for rape needing to show that he wasn't guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The woman almost has to prove that she was raped. One of the cases I worked with was the most tragic case of Eleanor De Freitas, who was prosecuted in circumstances where I don't think that she should have been. But it became so distressing to her to have to turn up to court. And she had mental health problems that she actually wore a burka as she came into court because of the way she felt exposed. And very, very sadly, three days before she was due to stand trial, she took her own life because of the shame, as she described it in her suicide note. And what system change would have made her experience slightly more bearable? I think the answer is anonymity. I think it's that it's not prejudged before you've stood trial.

And if you work on the premise that you're innocent until proven guilty, if we say the complainants or victims of rape have the right to anonymity, then they should retain that until such time as the jury judges that they're not telling the truth. Bearing in mind the modern dating world, are there likely to be more of these sorts of cases, Gillian? What do you think? I think there's a chance of an increased disbelief and increased lack of the progress of people who make allegations of rape unless we address this issue. And I think where you've now got a culture in social media and the way people date and meet up, there's more risk of these types of issues

arising and people being charged with making false complaints. But at its most basic, you can sext somebody, you can flirt with somebody online, you can arrange to have sex with them via text message or however you might choose to communicate, they can still rape you. Absolutely. That's the fundamental issue that we have to address, that irrespective of the circumstances, and that's why those preconceived ideas need to be disabused, and so that people address the evidence and look at the evidence fairly without bringing stereotypes to the table. Quite a challenge, to put it mildly. Your thoughts on that, welcome via social media media or you can email the programme through the website. That was Gillian Jones QC. Also, you heard from our guest editor during the course of that conversation, the campaigning

feminist lawyer, Harriet Wistrich. Harriet, you have been involved with a number of cases over the years involving Yarlswood Immigration Detention Centre, that's right, isn't it? Which is what? So I think it's actually an immigration removal centre, they're called. But it's basically a place where asylum seekers and people who've overstayed are detained and with a view to removing them, or in the case of asylum seekers, their case is being fast-tracked and I did quite a lot

of work around that issue in the past and not just Yarlswood but other immigration detention centres but Yarlswood was the place which which held women and and I found many many women who had suffered horrendous torture and abuse in their home countries, being detained and suffering horrendous mental health problems as a result of their treatment in Yarlswood. So it was an issue that I took up a number of cases around. Now, when we talk about asylum seekers, refugees, immigrants, sometimes, certainly in much of the mass media,

there's an inclination to lump them all together. They're just lumps of people. They're not individuals. And I think it's really important that we focus on individual stories. And we're going to hear one now that is pretty much incredible, actually. A story of epic survival, if you can put it that way.

Zemzem Mohamed, who got out of her home country of Eritrea at the age of 18, And then she spent five years. She travelled across the Sahara, to Sudan, then on to Libya. And then she's claimed asylum in the UK via Italy and Malta. She's now 37. She's settled with her husband and two children. and she works as a health and safety inspector on the railways overnight. She wears a hard hat over her hijab. Life is still not completely simple for Zemzem, but she's still a survivor and she's working hard. You hold this woman in very high esteem, don't you? Yes, I thought it'd be nice to do a story about Zemzem because I just think she is an amazingly strong and resilient character. She's a

survivor. She was in Yarlswood too. And she was in Yarlswood. I met her in Yarlswood and I just admire her a lot and what she's been able to do and the way she keeps going. And she doesn't, no confrontational difficulty is too much for her. She'll just sort it out and get on with it. Well, here she is. I got married at age 17. Then after almost two years, my husband was taken by the local government. They suspect him to be one of the opposition party. So he was a political prisoner? Yes. So they took him for almost a year and a half or two years. And I was also being invited to go to military service after he left. So I refused because of my religion. I'm not allowed to go. So they said, you don't have choice because your husband is not here

and it's your duty to serve. I had to be forced. I stayed like a few months and I was not accepting to do anything. Then they had to also detain me. You say that while you were locked up, you were raped. Yes. And you had two miscarriages. Yes, I did indeed.

Did you get any medical treatment? The first one was only inside the prison. They have like a small clinic, very basic, like first aid treatment. But the second one, it was huge because I was bleeding badly. So they had to take me to the hospital. It is truly horrific to hear that. It is indeed. You were able in the end to get out because your family came to an arrangement.

Yes. My mum and her brother-in-law, together they agreed to pay the money and they just took me out and then sent me to Sudan. The same night I went out, I had to start travelling to Sudan. You were completely on your own? I'm completely on my own. There's only one gentleman that's taken me through all the journey to Sudan. And how did you get there?

It was a seven-day journey because we walk only night. Day, we have to sleep. And how did you get there? It was seven days journey because we walk only night, day we have to sleep. And who was this man? One of the smuggler you know I don't even know him but all I think about it is no worse than what condition I am in. How did he treat you? He was really nice to be honest with you he's very nice guy. I made work and arrangement to go to Libya because I don't have a right to live in Sudan as well. So I had to determine to say I have to go somewhere to make my life better. From Sudan, I traveled to Libya by Sahara. You crossed the Sahara Desert? Yeah, Sahara Desert. How? It was like 21 days by land rover. We were like 19 people. We ended up like six of them, they passed away on our journey because it was very dry and we ended up not having water and it's too hot. And a lot of people couldn't cope. We had nothing to do because we didn't have anything to help them. So we just had to leave them on the floor like this, on the sand, without even burying them,

because we too, we were very weak. By the time we get to the border of Libya, we all were, like, very tired. We needed medical attention. But again, the Libya government, they took us immediately to prison. And luckily, because we went to the prison, we had to get some food, some shower, something that we really need to,

even though it's a prison, but it's something that is shelter for us. Yes, relative comfort after what you've been through. Yeah, yeah. Which tells us how difficult the rest of the journey was, we should say. How did you get to Italy? Yeah, basically, when I was in Trablus,

I wanted to go to Italy. But unfortunately, the boat that we had, it had some failure on the compounds. So we end up in the middle of the Sea of Malta. We couldn't continue to go to Italy. So the Navy, they come around and they ask us if we need any help and if we need to seek asylum here. We said, yes, we do, as long as it's safe. They come back to us and say, listen, you 200 people, we can't take you. Our country is so small. We only can take children and pregnant women. So they told us, don't worry, we're going to send you to Italy.

Then they set up the compass for us. They give us, don't worry, we're going to send you to Italy. Then they set up the compass for us. They give us more fuel. And when we went to Italy, the Navy knew about us being there. So they accommodate us for a week in a small detention center where you can't go out, but it wasn't like that bad. Then they told us, listen, guys, you're going to Rome for some asylum process. Then we say, OK. Then they handcuff us when we get in on the airplane. We ask them why.

They say, because you guys are illegal. So the pilot will not accept you. I say, OK. Then we end up landing in Malta. Then when we start asking, why are we in Malta? They say, because it's the first country that you arrive. You're supposed to seek asylum. Yeah.

So then what? Then we stay in a very poor condition in Malta, near to the sea, very cold. It was wintertime and there's no bed. Can I just ask, how old were you then? I was 20. Yeah. What was on your mind? Well, I don't even know.

Sometimes I wake up, I don't even know. It's like a dream for me. Like, I don't know where I'm going, where I'm doing, and I don't even know how I get there. I always ask myself, where am I ending up? Where am I going? And what am I doing? Well, by a quite remarkable quirk of fate,

you did reunite with your husband. Yes, yes. I spoke to my mum when I came to England. She said she recently went to his family and they told her he has escaped by the help of his uncle. He went to Europe, but I don't know where. It could be America, she told me. And then that's where I said I need to find out where he is.

So I contacted Red Cross and Mum Jill, the lady that she introduced me to Harriet, she helped me a lot. The day I seek asylum, the next day they put me in detention in this country because I had a fingerprint for Italy and Malta. And the rules are that you should have gone stay in the first country that I landed. I say I want want solicitor. They say, no, because you don't have a right to seek asylum. You can't. I stay there in detention for four months. Mama Jel introduced me to a solicitor and the solicitor came with an interpreter. Then I told the solicitor all my case. And when he heard it, the interpreter, he told him, the man she's talking about, if I'm not mistakenly, he's your client. I've interpreted for you.

So he knew him? He knew him. He said, the man she's explaining is exactly the same man that a few months ago that I interviewed him for you. Why don't we have a word with him and see? If it's him. Yeah. The next day, he told me, we've got good news for you. I said, what's that?

Am I going to be released? He said, maybe better. I said, what? And I said to him, your husband is in England here and he has an asylum, but his asylum has not yet been granted. He's still on a process. It's just like a dream. So how many years have you been separated? Like almost four years. And was it strange? Very strange. The day he had to visit me, this mama jailed, she was crying with us and everybody was in the visiting area because we both were crying and the worst of it is I can't go with him. I had to stay back in. You were still in Yarlswood? Yes, but it bring my hope. When I saw him, I had the hope that we will find each other again. I mean, it is a fantastic story.

Very much. You are together again. You've got your two kids. Yes. Now, when you wake up first thing in the morning, you do know where you are, don't you? Yes, I do. And what do you think?

I'm just very grateful of everything. You know, even though I pass through difficulty, I still have him. He's my brother. He's my husband. He's my friend. He's everything. He understands me very well. We understand each other. We have lovely children and a very good life. Isn't that fantastic? That should lighten your load today.

If you're feeling a bit despondent, if the heat's getting to you, that was the story of Zemzah Mohammed, back with her husband now, living safely in Britain with the two kids and working as a health and safety inspector on the railways. Now, let's delight in some feminist ceramicism. Is that right, Harriet? Who have you got with us?

So, yeah, I thought this would be a slightly different item and I'd like to introduce Claudia Clare, who is an exhibition of hers and I absolutely love these beautiful pots very beautifully done huge pots some of them with these how is your big how big is your biggest one Claudia oh the biggest pots two meters high they are enormous but I don't make I made five of those and I won't be making another one unless it's to commission okay and where does that reside your enormous one it's still in storage in my studio but it's to commission. Okay, and where does that reside, your enormous one? It's still in storage in my studio, but it's available. Is it available? Yes, oh yes.

But there's all five of them. Those are called shattered. They belong to this strain of work that I do, which is broken amended work, which I can explain to you. Yeah, do. What does that mean? Well, what it is, is I will, when I build my pots, if there is good reason to do so, I will sometimes paint the pictures on the inside

as well as the out. Then they're fired once, and then I drop them, or in another way, break them, and then I put the pieces back together again, and I leave gaps. I don't know how you can bear to do that, though. It's agonising. I actually hate doing it.

And I piece them back together and I leave gaps. And then you can see through the gaps what's on the inside. Now, I'll only do this if the story that I'm illustrating on the pot has some kind of element of opposing forces, of friction, of it might be a very traumatic story or it might be a story of transformation. Now, where can people see your stuff? Right, I've got some pots in the Pankhurst Centre in Manchester. I've got some in... It's Murray Edwards College, Cambridge,

and it's part of what is still called the Newhall Art Collection, which is an international collection of women's art. One of my favourite pieces there, it's called Wedding Feast, which celebrates a lesbian wedding which took place in 1995 in Novi Sad on the shores of the Danube and it was a wedding of my very dear friend Rachel

with her then lover Iqbala who was a Kosovo Albanian and this was in the pouring rain and they drank green tea and they invited guests from all over the Balkans. And that's a really important point because they really wanted it to be an anti-nationalist event at the end of the war. So it's a very kind of celebratory, positive piece. And that's almost in pride of place, I'm really pleased to say, in Maria Edwards College. So it's a good one to go and look at right and if you're intrigued we will have some of Claudia's work on our Instagram

account a little bit later on so you can look out for them and you two met I gather at a demo this could only happen an ideal home exhibition anti-clause 28 demo that's right okay so I met Harriet in a queue of 25 women we were on on our way to Occupy a House in the Ideal Home exhibition. What year was this? And this was 1988. It was the 13th of March, which was Mother's Day. Highly significant because Clause 28 had within it, in its reference to pretend family relationships,

it had a very particular attack, in effect, on lesbian mothers. So this was organised by lesbian mothers. It was a women-only demonstration. And it was really one of the most imaginative events i've ever taken part and you've been friends ever since we've been friends ever since and it's recorded on a cup and a teapot and that cup is part of the clause 28 t set in the pankhurst center in manchester brilliant thank you very much claudia great to have you as part of this program harriet thank you and you are the part we should say you're the part you've mentioned being a lesbian you're the partner of Julie Bindle what do you two find to talk about well uh there is never a dull moment party like that

how long have you been together 32 years uh god help me but and never a crossword well very rarely but actually it's a it's been a great partnership and never a dull moment. She's incredibly funny, generous and a lovely person, usually supportive. I don't think I could do all the work I did without her. And that rather romantic note, Harriet, was how the show ended. I mean, it's good to have some genuine positivity. Yes, well, I deal all the time with really, really awful hard things. And it's kind of, you know, that's kind of everything that I deal with most of the time.

It was quite interesting to put this programme together because I thought I can't just present although I could have put together a whole programme about all the issues that really matter to me and the work I do and stuff. I felt it was important to have a bit of balance and to look at a range of different issues. Yeah, I mean, you and Julie must

have just recreational downtime where you watch terrible telly or you stop caring about the injustices of the world. Yes, we do. I don't mean that nastily, but you know what I mean. Yes, absolutely. We try to do it. The problem is that Julie also deals with horrors and atrocities like I do. So it's quite difficult to

uh you know occasionally we're having a conversation going to bed or something and and then she says stop that's it we're not talking about that no more it's time for a book at bedtime that can be depressing too can't it yeah you never know what's coming yeah yeah um let me just read some of the thoughts we've had from the listeners. I worked with Harriet for 10 years on the campaign for justice following the shooting of Jeanne Charles de Menezes that was on the London Underground in the wake of the London bombings of 2005. That's correct. And Yasmin is this contributor.

She says she's an incredible advocate and an inspiring champion of women's rights. From Stella, listening to Harriet with love and admiration, she's done incredible advocate and an inspiring champion of women's rights from stella listening to harriet with love and admiration she's done decades of vital work it's so important to share it more widely claire says i'm finding it really moving listening to harriet discussing sally challenge case coercive control and her advocacy work with the legal system she's an absolute hero um a reaction to the conversation we had about the alleged false rape allegations. This listener says, my daughter was raped 15 years ago by a so-called friend. Now, this led to a pregnancy that she terminated.

She didn't contact the police because she had a very active sex life and felt this would be used against her. The subsequent abortion has left her with continued overwhelming guilt. From Sam, nightmare, no wonder most of us see no other way but have to choose not to report and thereafter suffer the consequences of that decision compounded with the burden of guilt. And a number of listeners felt really heartened by the experience of ZemZem. Carol said this was the most heartwarming story. Talk about overcoming adversity. And Gilly, I'm loving Harriet's takeover of Women's Hour, especially this inspiring lady whose life exemplifies why the UK must continue to welcome refugees. Well, thanks to everybody who did

contact us today. Harriet, it's very, I mean, obviously in the limited amount of time available, it's very hard to get across everything you wanted to impart. Is there anything left over? You've now got the opportunity to get it off your chest. Well, I'd like to talk a little bit more about one or two of the other issues that I've dealt with.

One of the cases that that i've dealt with i i um one of the cases that that's been very important to to me and has been very inspirational in the way we brought the case was was working with the women who were deceived into uh relationships by undercover police officers now this is one of those stories that actually hasn't had the same because it doesn't seem to most of us civilians if you like that clear cut well it it is um remarkable actually what how how people don't get it i mean um i think some people do immediately okay what do we need to get well what you need to get is it's not just about somebody deceiving you in a relationship because we know that happens all the time sadly and particularly men men often try and dupe women and make them think they're something other than

they are but it's about the the power of the state um uh to to put somebody uh into a long-term um relationship i mean whether or not they've deliberately told them to do it, the officers felt that they could do it. And then those officers are totally protected by all the resources of the state. And that means false identities and escape routes and all the rest of it. And then some of those men lived with the women for a number of years. And what sort of women were targeted? And these were women who were mainly involved in social justice, political activism, environmental activism. Some were only really on the edges of that

or were friends with people or animal rights issues. So they're people who wanted to change... This sort of life behind the Iron Curtain. No, absolutely. I mean, it is shocking. And when it first arose, it is shocking, you know. And when it first arose, everyone was gobsmacked. And I mean, I know, you know, one of the women that is involved in the case is Helen Steele, who's an amazing person who was involved in the libel case previously and was known about that.

And she said when she kind of had suspicions after this man disappeared from her life and she tried to talk to people about him. I said, have you heard yourself, Helen? What planet are you living on? We don't do that sort of thing. It is terrifying because it implies there's a kind of state gaslighting going on, doesn't it? Exactly. Very, very much so. And even now that they, I mean, they did actually, there was a period where they did a lot of publicity and there was a lot of on for nearly four years and uh it has not

um uh you know the movement is so slow and still the women who have been the one thing they really really need many of them is to understand what what this was about and to get disclosure and they still have not been given an ounce of disclosure even though they've had some of them a very public apology from the head of the police and a recognition that this was abusive behaviour. So it's a matter that continues to need to be highlighting, maybe because people think, oh, those are different, those sorts of women, so they don't relate. So unless you've been a political activist yourself, you maybe don't think you put yourself into that position. But it is actually the mostism as well because it's a disregard um you know that that these women can be used if it's convenient to um you know further their undercover

infiltration and why why why do that put that level of resources into into basically people who are trying to make a better life uh by by protesting and non-violent direct action. Is this likely to inspire one of your pieces of work, do you think, Claudia? Oh, I don't know. I've done quite a lot of work that records protests, but I was actually just thinking, as I was sort of zoning off there... What? You were zoning off? Harry was talking! And what's more, I may have been talking.

Anyway, carry on. But I was really... You talked about comfort rabbits and you've also, the programme, has talked quite a lot about refugees. And I've started doing a series of portrait pots of people with their animals. And the first two that I've done are both refugees.

And one is my dearly beloved friend, Hussein, who's my flatmate and best mate. And it's him with his kitten, Sooty. And then there's another one. This is where the comfort rabbit comes in, who is also a very dear friend called Nisreen, who's a refugee from Syria. And she, for a while, was intensely phobic about animals, all animals and any animals. When she moved in with my sister's family, they have rabbits. And she has formed this really close relationship

with a rabbit called Pebbles and it's possibly one of my kind of proudest pots actually is this portrait of Nisreen with Pebbles I had no idea that comfort animals was such a thing and I should say that later in the week Danny Cotton, the Commissioner of the London Fire Brigade we're doing an item on Friday about therapy dogs these things, I mean, it's taking off in a big way the Commissioner of the London Fire Brigade, we're doing an item on Friday about therapy dogs. Yes.

These things, I mean, it's taking off in a big way. Dogs and animals can be amazingly therapeutic. Do you and Julie have a pet? Yeah, well, we have a wonderful dog called Maisie and two cats. And actually, Maisie, the animals provide a lot of comfort to a friend of ours who has mental health difficulties, who comes around every day while we're out at work. And just that those animals really keep her going, actually, because looking after the animals and also dogs in particular, because they're so unquestioningly adoring, whatever you do can be can be really, really therapeutic and calming. So, yeah, i agree with that rabbits don't live very long they do anyway sorry i carry on yes that's another issue what

happens when the animals die of course um but but i always cheer everybody up yeah one one other issue perhaps just to mention um because i know claudia's doing this really interesting project with women exiting prostitution. Yes. throughout her childhood and, you know, had then ended up on the streets in prostitution where she'd met the man who had taken her in and controlled her, who she'd ended up killing. And, you know, that's been something that I think we really need to recognise the harm that prostitution does and how it is a form of violence against women. One of the cases that is ongoing, which matters a great deal to me, is around the way

in which women who have been abused and, you know, put on the street to, you know, by pimps and groomers and so on, have got criminal convictions and numerous criminal convictions for soliciting, which they are still required, even if they've exited 20 or 30 years ago, to declare. And that is something that, you know, we're in coming up to the Court of Appeal on that issue. Right, that's one to watch out for. I've got to say, in the interest of balance, of course, there are feminists who would make, some would say, a very powerful argument for sex workers empowering. feminists who would make, some would say, a very powerful argument for sex workers empowering? Well, the women that I've worked with, who are sex trade survivors, and many I've worked with,

find the term sex work offensive because they don't see it as either about sex or work. And so that is a polarised issue. It's a debate, to put it. It certainly is polarised, yes. And there we end this edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. But thank you both. Thank you for sticking around, Claudia. Love you to meet you. And Harriet, fantastic to have you on the programme in charge today.

Thank you. Jenny's here tomorrow. Her guest editor is the teenage campaigner, Amica George. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.