Woman's Hour - Taking babies to protests, Abortion laws in Alabama US, Cassiopeia Berkeley-Agyepong and Simone Ibbett-Brown

Episode Date: October 9, 2019

Mothers are taking part today in the Extinction Rebellion protests with a mass ‘nurse in’ when they will bottle or breastfeed their young babies on the front line of one of the road blockades. Jenni looks at the history of women taking their children to protests with Anne Pettitt one of the founders of the Women’s Peace Camp at Greenham Common in the 1980’s, Lorna Greenwood one of the organisers of today’s ‘nurse in’ and Dr Caitriona Beaumont, associate Professor of Social History from London South Bank University.While the catwalks of London, New York and Paris appear to be thriving, the latest figures from the British Retail Consortium reveal that the high street has just experienced its worse September in over 20 years – with clothing sales down 3.9%. There’s also a much greater awareness of the environmental impacts of fast fashion. With 11 million items of clothing going into UK landfill each week, the days of guilt-free shopping sprees are surely over. So what is the real face of fashion today? Stylist and journalist Basma Khalifa discusses the rise of ‘season-less’ style, while Oxfam’s sustainable fashion expert Fee Gilfeather talks about the surge in second-hand fashion as an alternative to buying new.The second of two reports on the American states that have tightened their abortion laws this year. Today we hear from Alabama which voted in the strictest abortion laws in the whole of America. Despite this there’s a surprising building going up in its largest city, Birmingham. It’s a sexual health clinic which will offer abortions. People are already protesting against it and Siobhann Tighe has been to meet them. Shuck ‘N’ Jive is the debut play written by Cassiopeia Berkeley-Agyepong and Simone Ibbett-Brown. Frustrated by the stereotypical roles available to them, Cassiopeia and Simone decided to write a play exploring representation and systemic racism in the performing arts.Presented by Jenni Murray Produced by Caroline DonneInterviewed guest: Anne Pettitt Interviewed guest: Lorna Greenwood Interviewed guest: Dr. Caitriona Beaumont Interviewed guest: Basma Khalifa Interviewed guest: Fee Gilfeather Interviewed guest: Cassiopeia Berkeley-Agyepong Interviewed guest: Simone Ibbett-Brown

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast. In today's programme, two young performers write their own play about writing their own play and uncover the racism they face day after day. It's called Shuck and Jive, a phrase that can be traced to a song sung by slaves during the corn shucking season. A sexual health clinic is being built in Alabama, a state with the most restrictive abortion laws in the United States. We meet the protesters who oppose plans

to offer terminations there. And as the autumn fashion show season comes to a close, the high street has its worst September for 20 years. Other days of guilt-free shopping for clothes, over and done. Now, the Extinction Rebellion protest continues in Whitehall and Westminster as the police try to keep the streets in central London open for business. But this morning, a group of women will join the action by taking their babies and young children to an undisclosed part of the city, sitting down and feeding their infants in what they're calling a nursing.

How often have women taken part in such events in the past with their children alongside them? How safe a practice is it? And is it really fair to expect a child who has no choice in the matter to share your enthusiasm for a cause? Well, Anne Pettit, who founded the Greenham Common Peace Camp, joined us on the phone. Dr Katrina Beaumont is an Associate Professor in Social History

at Southbank University. And Lorna Greenwood will be at the nursing with her 16-week-old son. Why is she taking her baby with her? The reality is that our babies aren't safe because of the climate crisis. Babies have died, are dying and will die. And this nursing protest is about women taking their babies to the centre of government, to the centre of power and saying these are the youngest lives who will be affected by the climate crisis and we're putting all our defences down, we're putting ourselves in a vulnerable position

and we're saying to the people who have the power to please protect our children's future. We're mothers and we are in fear of our children's lives and there's nothing else that we can do. Why do you use the word vulnerable for the position that you're putting yourselves in? We and the babies won't be in any physical danger. We've got a lot of precautions in place. But also Extinction Rebellion is a movement

founded in love and non-violent civil disobedience. So we completely trust that we will be protected on the streets. And we also believe that the police will protect us too. The vulnerability comes from the fact that we are new mothers. We would rather be at home recovering from birth and spending time with our babies. And instead we're going to be sitting on a cold street in October, pleading for our babies' lives in a society that hasn't come to terms with breastfeeding.

So for a lot of women, this is a huge act of courage, which I think should be recognised. And we should just mention that Jacob is happily nursing away as we talk and gurgling as he does it. Katrina, how often have women kind of used their children as part of a protest in this way? Well, I think there's a long history of women bringing their children along to protest marches. It's debatable about what the motive for that was. I think we have to accept that at times that was

convenience. So who else was going to look after those children when women were out protesting about various issues? It also would have been perhaps more normal for whole families to go on protest activities together. So for example in 1819 you have the Democracy

March on St Peter's Field in Manchester which tragically turned into what's known as the Peterloo Massacre. And that got particular attention and is a very significant moment in British history because of the death of four women and one child. But there were significant numbers of women and children. It was seen as a day out. So it was normal for the whole family to go along together to hear Henry Hunt, who was a pro-democracy speaker,

and people dressed up in their Sunday best and brought their children along with them. It would be interesting to know whether the death and the brutality and the very vivid and violent images that emerged after the Peterloo massacre were quite graphic of women defending themselves against the yeomanry who were attacking them with swords, holding this one image of a woman holding her hand up with a babe in arms. So I think whether that put women off bringing children is questionable.

We know, of course, it was the 200th anniversary. Indeed, in August this year, absolutely. And it had a huge, I think it perhaps changed the way in which families perhaps thought about protests. But we still have evidence of women bringing children along. So another lovely example is the, well, a good example is the 1913 suffrage pilgrimage, where suffragists, about 5,000 of them gathered in Hyde Park, having marched from different areas across England and Wales.

And there's reports and images of many children walking along with women. So presumably they brought them along because, once again, perhaps they had no one to look after them. Anne, how often were children and babies involved in the Greenham Common Peace Camp? There were not many children actually living for any length of time at Greenham Common. There were a few, but for short periods of time. It wasn't exactly ideal conditions for having young children there. But on the march that led to setting up the peace camp, several women did bring children in pushchairs

because, for a mixture of reasons really, but mainly because they wanted to go on a march and there was no one else to look after the children because in one case it was a single mother, in another case husbands were away working. I was lucky in the sense that i didn't have to take my kids i didn't want to because they were four and two and a half and it's not a lot of fun for kids on a on a march like that really and so i i did leave them with my husband at home

katrina how often has the image of the vulnerable mother and child been a successful tactic? I think it has been very successful. There's many examples, particularly amongst housewives associations and women's organisations, thinking about the Women's Cooperative Guild, for example, or the Mothers' Union, who use the imagery of the mother and child or children as part of their branding or representing, situating themselves within public life. And it can be effective in that it legitimates women's arguments for rights, whether it's for better housing or voting rights or whatever that might be.

It gives an additional strength to argue we are doing this on behalf of ourselves as women, but also on behalf of our children. And of course, that means for wider society. I think there can also be some conflict because there is a danger that the rights of the women are subsumed into the rights of the child. And I think perhaps a green common that emerged at times as being a point of conflict amongst the protesters there about how much attention you give to whether or not you're campaigning for peace because of the future

of your child or because you as a woman, as an individual, have issues with warfare and with militarisation. So there can be attention there, but it has certainly, if you look over the long period, been very effective and it has allowed women to enter this public space of protest, which, you know, if we're talking right up until really the mid-th century was quite unusual for women to sort of present themselves in this position of public conflict out on the streets as you will be today and sort of allows that to happen. And what influence did Greenham and your involvement in it have on your children as they grew up because when they were little they were there because you wanted them to be there if they were there. Well, they used to get green and mixed up with Greenpeace. It's very flattering.

They used to think that I'd started Greenpeace. I was always trying to say to them, no, you didn't start Greenpeace. That's a big organisation. It has nothing to do with it. But later, when they grew up, I think they were quite proud of me, really. And what about their own politics? What influence has it had on that? I think the fact that we were a generally political household had an influence on them, made them into, I would say, thoughtful people. Lorna, how concerned are you that you're involving your very little child in an event in which he has no choice?

It gives me pause for thought. But when I look into the future and wonder what my children will ask me, what they will say, when in this country we start to experience the really severe effects of the climate crisis, I mean, we're already seeing it now, but when we really see it, I think they will be asking us what we did. And I believe that they will be glad that if this helps, that I did the right thing. And a lot of the women who are going to be there today feel the same. We wish that we didn't have to, but we feel that we must. But how reasonable is it to expose a child to such

events when they need to be fed as we can hear now changed they need to sleep for older children they need to go to school the only children that will be there today as far as i understand will be toddlers and babies they won't be in any physical danger because of all the precautions that we've taken. They will be surrounded by loving mothers, parents. We are in a dialogue with the police, we have legal observers, we have stewards, we have made sure that it's visible in the press. This is going to be a very supportive, a very loving and a very calm protest. So I think it will be a safe place for these babies and mothers to be. Anne, I wonder, you know, there was so much fear around Greenham and nuclear power, nuclear weapons.

And I wonder, to what extent were your fears passed on to your children? Did you worry that you were making them frightened as well? I did, yes. Really, I mean, the moment of greatest fear was coming up to the sighting of cruise missiles and that was fear that drove me to organise the march and fear of something very imminent, fear of nuclear war really happening by accidental design. I think at that stage they were actually too young to understand what was driving me. By the time they got, say, over five years old, the fear

had receded because we were into a period of disarmament. So, Lorna, you're afraid of climate change. I know you have an older child, a daughter. She's still only very young. I think she's two. But to what extent are you worried that you're passing your fear to them and they'll become frightened children? I think they aren't able to escape the realities of the climate crisis. I don't believe I'm passing my fear onto them because the fear is there and exists and it's real and it's reasonable.

I hope what I'm passing to them is the sense of power that we can at least try and prevent the very worst effects of the climate crisis. And that when you're faced with these huge issues, the thing to do is to act and to fight injustice. Lorna Greenwood, Baby Jacob, of course, and Pettit and Katrina Beaumont. Now, the autumn fashion shows in Paris, Milan, New York and London are over. Pistachio green is apparently a colour, checks are a pattern and tailoring and high necks are in. But how much of this will come down to the high street and even if it does how much are we likely to buy? The high street has just experienced its worst September in more than 20 years and 11 million items of clothing go into UK landfill every week.

So what's the future for fashion? Well, Fi Gilfeather is Oxfam's specialist in sustainable fashion and joins us from Oxford. Basma Khalifa is a fashion stylist. Basma, how much have attitudes to fashion really changed in the past 10 years or so? I think it's completely changed because I think sustainability matters more than spending. I think people have a lot more guilt when it comes to spending now. So they just aren't willing to part with that £10, £20, £50 as easy as they were. We've just heard, Fi, about the positions that are happening or the

nursing that's happening today about climate change. How damaging is fast fashion for the environment? I was reflecting during those interviews that the people who are experiencing climate change at the moment are the people that Oxfam works with in some of the poorest countries around the world so whilst we're talking about our children experiencing the effects in future we know it's something that's being experienced now and when we talk to people about the impact of fast fashion on climate people aren't aware that it's one of the world's biggest polluters so the textile industry produces more carbon than international aviation and shipping combined, which flying is always seen as the big polluter,

the big dangerous thing to do. And actually, if you think of all the new clothes that are bought in the UK in one month, the carbon footprint is the equivalent to flying a plane around the world 900 times. So it's really, really affecting climate change. And what about the 11 million items that go into UK landfill every week? It's a real demonstration of how throwaway our culture has become in terms of clothing and consumption.

People are buying clothing from fast fashion retailers every week, wearing them once and then simply throwing them away, either because the quality is not good enough so they don't last or because the trends have got to the stage where people feel that they can't be seen wearing something more than once. So Pasma how guilty are people really feeling? Clothing sales on the high street may have gone down but online still seems to be rather busy. Yeah I this is a tricky one because I feel like it's a little bit unfair we're targeting people who kind of can't afford to buy that £1,000 coat and keep it for five years. You know, you're saying to people that are, you know,

middle class or working class, you know, stop spending and buy the really expensive item and keep it for a long time. When actually in reflection, most people, yeah, can't afford £10, but they can't afford £1,000. So it is damaging, but the target is at the wrong demographic. I think it's really unfair that we're blaming people who just can't afford to spend big and keep it for a long time. So who should we be targeting?

I think higher end. I think we need to be looking at the big boys and looking at the big designers who do charge you £4,000 or £5,000 a jacket and say to them, you know, you need to take some responsibility here. I just think we're asking people who obviously care about the environment and care about sustainability but also giving

them more guilt than they can really take on so what experience do you have of dealing with this pressure on the environment what are people who ask for you to use your skills what are they asking you for i think it's it's changed so much now it used to be so trend-led it used the pistachio green used to matter now it's a lot more hey can you find me something that i can keep and also wear next season and maybe wear the season afterwards no one wants to throw away anything anymore so when i have clients that come to me or when i do jobs a lot of people sort of say you know find me something and know that I can wear this and it's going to look good on me and with how our bodies change and how our perceptions of things change

that this is this coat's still going to work for me so it's definitely it's definitely moving in the right direction I just think we're putting a level of guilt on people that is slightly heavy for the fact that they probably can't afford to be as sustainable as they probably want to be. See there have been a number of reports of famous women like the Duchess of Cambridge recycling items from years and years ago and people say oh goodness look she wore that eight years ago. What influence though is that having on people? I think it's really helping to demonstrate that you don't need to wear things once and worry about being seen in them again. So there's lots of celebrities who, for example, are wearing vintage items on the red carpet. You mentioned the Duchess of Cambridge.

There's a lot of people now who are showing that it's all about that long lasting good piece that you like, that you can style in different ways and that you don't have to see clothing as disposable. How widely popular though Fee is second hand or as I suppose they call it these days vintage becoming? It's definitely something which has been growing over the past few years. So looking at the charity retail sector, sales in charity retail have been outperforming commercial high street retail for the last 12 months so last quarter they were up 1.4 percent it's just a sign that people in times where they want their money to go a little bit further they know that they can go to a charity shop and find something perhaps for the similar price that you might pay for in a fast fashion outlet but you get something better quality that will last a long time. How much of a problem is it, though, to get vintage things to fit?

You know, we are bigger, I think, generally, than women in the 20s and 30s were. I can only say, I have to admit this, I tried to get a vintage jacket. Could I get one that even my arms would fit into? No. Is there a real problem in vintage and secondhand stuff fitting the modern population i do hear this from um some people have sort of told us that they find it

really hard so what we've done at oxfam to try and help make it easier for people to find things in their sizes we've got our online shop so you can search by size and that's something which we know really helps but um you're right it is that there's a difference between charity shopping or second-hand shopping and when you go to a high street retailer and you can find everything the same item in several different sizes it's more about finding that one thing that you try on and it fits you and it's it's a special keeper um so it's a different kind of shopping and a different experience that um people are getting used to and learning to love. I kind of agree with you. It's really annoying if you go to a shop and you're like, oh, I want to buy a secondhand now vintage item and it can't fit. At the same time, you definitely can get

things altered and you definitely can't get them taken up. I'm quite petite. I'm little and I buy normal clothes and I get everything taken up or, you know, changed a little bit. So it's not ideal. I can understand that. But at the same time, it's still saving the environment. What's the impact, though, Basma, on the industry of fashion for vintage or secondhand? I mean, it's going to have a huge impact. We have to remember that the fashion industry is a multi-billion pound industry. And if we buying the industry stops selling the industry stops selling it's an economy thing you know we as much as I yes want people to be sustainable we also have to remember that we're holding millions of people's jobs in our hands and there has to be a level playing field at some point where we say

people aren't going to lose their livelihoods but we care care about the environment. There needs to be an equal agreement, and I don't think they've really found that yet. But it will have a huge impact if people stop buying. Of course it will. These shops rely on us spending. And Fee, how concerned are you about women in developing countries? I know you're worried about climate change for them. But the women who depend on the fashion industry for their work.

Absolutely. It's a huge global employer, the fashion industry. But what we do know is that the majority of the women working in those factories are not paid a living wage, and that the conditions in factories and in the textile supply chains are really, really poor. And so one of the things which we need the fashion industry to really look at is not only the sustainability of their supply chains, but the impact on the people that are making clothes. And it's basically an overhaul of the industry that's needed.

Well, Fi, Gil, Feather and Basma Khalifa, thank you both very much indeed. And I should just mention there's a new podcast called Fashion Fix. It asks what makes ethical dress sense for people and the planet. The model and campaigner Charlie Howard learns how to be sustainable and stylish and you can find Fashion Fix on BBC Sounds. Now still to come in today's programme, two young performers write their own play

about writing their own play and explore the racism they face as they try to sell their skills. It's called Shuck and Jive. And the serial, the third episode of The Citadel. And by the way, if you haven't yet downloaded the BBC Sounds app to listen to Woman's Hour whenever you like, then now is the time. We've got a new podcast-only episode available to download featuring five Woman's Hour moments, so download the BBC Sounds app and search for Woman's Hour. You can also find more information about the special episode on our Instagram

account and that's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, if you were listening yesterday, you'll have heard a report from Missouri, one of the nine American states that have tightened their abortion laws this year. We heard from people working in a clinic about the regulations around the procedure and why they believe women should be offered abortions if they feel it's the right thing for them. Today we hear the opposite point of view. Alabama voted for the strictest abortion laws in the whole of America, but surprisingly a new building, which is in the process of construction in Birmingham, is described as a sexual health clinic,

which will offer terminations. Already there are protests. Siobhan Tai met some of the protesters on one of the main motorways going into the city. It's only eight in the morning and already people are gathering at the edge of a very busy road. Everyone can come under the bridge. There's some shade over this way. We can actually come this way. Come on guys.

The enormous trucks keep their speed up, but the group are here to pray. I know it's loud, but at least you're in some shade. But I'm just going to pray, and then if anyone else would like to pray, we'll give you a few minutes to do that. If you're going to pray, just pray loud. Just reach your hand over towards Planned Parenthood, to this new building. And Lord, we just come before you, God. I thank you for the ability to be out here, Lord.

And I pray, God, that this building would never open, Lord. But Lord, that this place would not even be able to find a doctor to work in it. Sarah Howell is leading. Her group is protesting about a clinic that isn't even built yet, let alone open. What's it like to be on this main road? Do you ever feel unsafe? The traffic is constant. Yeah, there's a lot of traffic, but that's good because it lets a lot of people see the sign. No one's ever got run down? No, no, no. We make sure that we're safe. We keep people out of the road.

And we've actually been out here on this sidewalk for almost a year. We haven't had any problems like that. And sometimes it's just you? We keep people out of the road and we've actually been out here on this sidewalk for almost a year. We haven't had any problems like that. And sometimes it's just you? Yeah, some mornings it's just me. You know, people work and I come out and I just hold my sign and pray and talk to the workers if they'll talk to me and talk to anybody who passes by. Have you ever been attacked? I have been screamed at, been sprayed with very high-powered sprinklers.

You can face a lot of intimidation. We've had a lot of verbal abuse, I guess you could say that. We had a guy stop by here one day and spend about 45 minutes just cussing me and my intern out. He was very angry. It's just a construction site now, but in due course, this will be a sexual health clinic run by Planned Parenthood, and one of its services will be abortion. These are people all from different... Some of these people are pastors, some are nurses, some are stay-at-home mums, some are directors of pregnancy centres, and all different denominations, and we just come out and we pray together. It's very informal.

These are the signs that we hold. One side says they're building an abortion clinic, the other side is for the workers and says you are building an abortion clinic. When we first decided to make the signs we were like what's the most what's the most important thing that we want people to know? We want people to know what's happening. This clinic to be flies in the face of a new Alabama law. It hasn't gone into effect yet, but back in May, stricter laws on abortion were passed, making it virtually impossible to get one,

even in cases of rape and incest. Anyone who tries to carry one out could go to prison. Anyone who does carry one out could go to prison for even longer. The men and women here passionately believe that's how it should be. I'm Natalie Brumfield and I'm with two of my five children. This is Matthew Jr. and Eloise. And how old are they? You're holding one and one's in a little cot. Yes, Matthew's two and Eloise is three months old. I'm interested in the

fact that you've brought your children to a protest like this. Many people would say that's inappropriate to bring children into this context. I feel it's completely appropriate because this is this is the situation. It's a living child and my children pray. Matthew of course is two and Eloise is three months so she doesn't understand. He understands in part because we pray for babies. Have you ever changed someone's mind? Oh yes ma'am, yes. Even if I hadn't I would still stand and pray because I believe it's right and it's needed and I love the women and I want to be there for them no matter what. What happened when you changed a woman's mind?

It was beautiful. It was beautiful. I'm still in relationship with several women that have changed their mind. So there is a big reason women, really help them. And I've been a sidewalk counselor for about 33 years. And often they just need someone who's being kind and helpful. So the clinic is not even built yet? No, it's in the process. We came and prayed before

they started. And the laws in Birmingham and the people of Birmingham are not pro-abortion. And so for Planned Parenthood to build this right here is just an insult. And it's right by the interstate. Do you ever get any douting and horns from the cars and from the vans going by? Yeah. In support or in opposition? Sure. Sometimes they do thumbs up and sometimes we get yelled at or they pull close and zoom off or something. But we're fine. I mean, nothing has happened yet.

Tell me why you're here and I'm particularly interested since i'm a nurse uh well i've been a nurse for over i don't know 13 years maybe um life is important i i worked here in the er it's a downtown area lots of people coming in and out and we save lives and i love it to save a life is, you can't explain it, but it's a massive thing. Tricky question, this. Do you think it's a conflict of interest, being here and being a nurse?

No, not at all, not at all. It's a part of our oath to care. But if you were approached by a patient who was considering an abortion, what would you do? I would always want to try to ask why, what the lean towards losing or wanting to have the life of the child taken. We always want them to know all their options, that there's not just one option, but there's many. So really to help them not feel so trapped and to give them all the options. Of course, it's still their choice and they can choose it. I always encourage life. We still want to say,

hey, come talk to me. I want all you always know that there's an open door for a conversation. And if you're hurting and you want to talk, let's talk. It's no exaggeration to say that abortion is dividing America, especially here in Alabama, part of the Bible Belt. Court proceedings will continue across all the nine states which have passed stricter abortion laws. Expect challenge after challenge, protest and counter-protest. It could be the U.S. Supreme Court which makes the ultimate decision. Sure, Di was reporting from Birmingham, Alabama, and you can hear both reports, for and

against, by going to Women's Hour on BBC Sounds. Now, Shuck and Jive is a short play which is being performed at the moment in the Soho Theatre in London. It's about two young women, both black, both performers, who've written a play about writing a play which exposes some of the everyday racism they face as they try to build their careers.

Simone Ibbett-Brown is a mezzo-soprano and one of BBC Radio 3's Next Generation Voices. Cassiopeia Berkeley-Aguipon trained at the Royal Academy of Music and you of course are the writers of the play why Cassiopeia did you decide to make a play about making a play? I think we love theatre and we love music based the characters say at the very beginning and what better way to talk about the things that affect us than through the medium which we love and especially like we both studied music at the University of York and like the idea of like deconstructing stories and how stories are created is so so interesting to us and so it seemed like the perfect vehicle to kind of look at the industry to is to have a play that looks at itself. How closely Simone do the incidents in the play

mirror your own experiences? Very closely. Actually, when we were writing it, quite a lot of it is taken verbatim from conversations we had, things we've experienced, things we've overheard. Some of them are incidents that have happened repeatedly. We always joke that it's funny, we started, the first half of the play is pretty much taken from stuff that happened. We wrote the play and then the second half of the play happened afterwards.

We accidentally, weirdly, horribly wrote the future. And we were always like, why didn't we write a scene where we won the lottery? You know, next time we'll write winning the lottery play. But all of the things happen, if not in exactly as they happen on stage. We play a lot with metaphor and different ways of presenting things that not just us, but many people experience every single day. But there is a conglomerate of experience that many people have. There are repeated incidents, Cassiopeia, of being required to wear white gloves for auditions. Now that really shocked me. I thought that can't possibly be happening now.

What that is, is kind of a visual metaphor. So what we were trying to look at is the idea of modern day minstrelsy and the concept of performative blackness. So quite often you won't necessarily have to physically put on white gloves, but might say to you oh could you um make that sound more black and then you have a question of like what does what does blackness sound like to you what are you expecting me to do that's going to make you feel comfortable with me being in your presence and so the kind of audition sequences and the transitions that happen within those are basically a theatrical way of presenting what people are doing auditions and what they feel like they have to do in order to get a job. But actually, when you do that, you lose a sort of part of yourself. There's reference to touching hair as well, Simone. What's that all about?

It's just one of the sort of most experiences um that people of color and particularly black people experience on a day-to-day basis it's something that um if you're if you're if you're um a white person it's very rare for someone on the street or someone you know at work or um out and about to just come and put their hands on your head invade your personal space um in a way that you haven't consented to or feel comfortable with but for some reason people just think it's all right if you're black just to come up and like put their hands all over your head um which i've never really understood i don't really often have the urge to go but how do you handle it when that happens what do you do do you just say don't touch me or do you put up with it it's difficult

it depends on what situation you're in and actually that's quite a lot of what the play's about I mean we as Cassie said we sometimes we feel like we have to become palatable either to avoid just it could be avoiding a day-to-day bit of stress but you know it might be your boss and you might feel scared for your job or your career it might be someone who is more physically powerful than you that you don't want to get into some kind of violent altercation it could be anyone and sometimes you'll feel comfortable if a friend say oh i'd rather you ask before you did that or you know something like that um and normally friends i think would would do that because you're friends and you have an

understanding the other person's a person with personal space but sometimes you don't feel comfortable saying that and we often feel like we're put in the position where you'd like to say something but because of the situation it's very hard to it can be very hard why did you choose the title Cassie shock and jive I think? I think it's super apt. We went through like lots of different like title suggestions. And when we came to this one, Shuck and Jive, the actual meaning of it is kind of, it's about what do you do in order to avoid psychological trauma. So you have like the idea of like Shuck, it could be like Shuck and Corn, and Jive is like singing a song whilst you do it. And so it comes like the idea of like shuck could be like shucking corn and jive is like singing a song whilst you do it and so it comes like the origins are in like come from slavery and the idea of like

what were the slaves doing in order to kind of get through the day and get through the day-to-day and like it's kind of i feel like especially in like a british context not many people know what it means and so it sounds like a really catchy snappy title people are oh yeah it sounds like a dance move and then actually within the play you kind of see the characters shucking and jiving and being like oh this horrible thing happened but it's so funny isn't it um and so it's kind of a a metaphor for like the whole play and for how people have to move for their day-to-day life just to just to exist basically how nervous were you about making a play about being stereotyped when the last thing you want is to be stereotyped? And so almost the best way to break down those stereotypes and those archetypes was to put two very specific people on stage and two people who couldn't be pigeonholed and who were trying to like fight are specific characters and that specificity lends itself to universality and people see themselves reflected in them because

they're not archetypes. Simone as well as race you discuss class and poverty in the play how difficult now is it for let's say a working class youngster to make it in performing arts it can be depending on your situation it can be incredible incredibly difficult it can definitely be possible and I would never want to put anyone off from um giving it a go but realistically the the way that actually just the cost of education um in performing arts is incredibly high at the moment and depending on where you are where you grew up where what the provision of music lessons is for example what the provision of you know your local drama club if there is a local drama club is that you may just end up not being exposed to or having the experience of or even being encouraged to take part in artistic endeavor you may think

you know I can't necessarily see people who look like me or are from my kind of background in the performing arts. What's the point in even trying when it costs so much money or when it's seen to be elitist in many ways? Even though, in fact, there are... If you manage to get in, there are lots of spaces which are welcoming for people of working-class backgrounds and things like that.

So it's a sort of catch-22 often. We know that colourblind casting, Cassie, has been going on for some years. What impact is that having in opening opportunities? I think the issue with colourblind casting is that it only works if the people who are doing the casting are also colourblind if they can offset their prejudices to be able to cast something in a truly colourblind way then it works but actually I feel like there should be more of a move towards colour conscious casting where people accept that they will have like ingrained racial prejudice and so then how do you act against that to ensure that if you're colorblind casting something you don't still end up with the the

black actor as the as the best friend or the sidekick because I think quite often what is perpetuated within colorblind casting is like yes we have a diverse range of ethnicities on stage but actually are people still playing the archetypes that like are ingrained into your consciousness. I was talking to Cassiopeia Berkeley-Aguipon and Simon Ibbett-Brown, and their play is still on at the Soho Theatre in London. Lots of response from you on the protest question, the climate change protest and women taking their babies along. Nicola Davis said, The rights enshrined in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child

are assaulted by climate change, so parents and children are right to protest that our government is not delivering on promises to act to combat climate change. Lucy Davin said this is my favourite baby photo of me with my mum, Tokyo, May 1970, protested by mainly Americans and other Westerners against Vietnam, bombing of Cambodia and killings of protesting students on US campuses. And of course there you can see the baby in a backpack with her mum. Elaine said, thought you might like to know the first demo my daughter went on was when she was two years old,

and along the way I remember men telling us to get our knickers off. My daughter is now in her 40s and still sometimes demonstrates with her daughter. Moira Sleeman said, My 106-year-old friend Felicity tells how she was used when a baby to undermine the Cat and Mouse Act. Her mother and nursemaid got past police to free women. This same friend hung pictures of my babies on the fence at Greenham Common.

I didn't feel I could go personally with them. And then Demon said, how can protesting for your children's future include your children? Your children will need clothing, feeding, housing etc so your children are contributing to climate change. Thank you for all your responses to today's programme and tomorrow I'll be talking to Chanel Miller. She's the woman who was known until recently as Emily Doe. She was sexually assaulted while she was unconscious on the ground on Stanford University's campus in the United States. Her victim impact statement, which she addressed to her attacker, Brock Turner,

was published on BuzzFeed and was viewed online by 11 million people within four days. Tomorrow, we'll be discussing her memoir. It's called Know My Name. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I just wanted to tell you about my new podcast. It's called Classical Fix, and it's basically me, Clemmie Burton-Hill, each week talking to a massive music fan. I mix them a classical playlist. They have a listen, they come in, and we just to a massive music fan. I mix them a classical playlist,

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