Woman's Hour - Talking to kids about the US protests; Trouper Sandy Collver; Dating after lockdown

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

The US has been convulsed by nationwide protests over the death of an African-American man in police custody. George Floyd, 46, died after being arrested by police outside a shop in Minneapolis, Minnesota. But what are black parents here saying to their youngsters about some of the images coming from America, such as the arrest footage itself, then the violent demonstrations and the angry confrontations between protesters and the police? And how does what happens there relate to how things are here?Could Neanderthal genes be influencing the fertility of modern humans? New research shows that one in three women in Europe have inherited sections of Neanderthal DNA that make them have fewer bleedings during pregnancy, fewer miscarriages and give birth to more children. Dr Hugo Zeberg from the Karolinska Institute in Sweden and Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany explains what it might mean for future fertility research.How are attitudes towards dating changing as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic? Has it changed how people feel about meeting prospective partners in real life? And now couples can meet for physically distanced dating, how confident will people feel about getting physically intimate once restrictions are lifted further? Zoe Strimpel is the author of Seeking Love in Modern Britain: Gender, Dating and the Rise of ‘the Single’. Oloni is a sex and relationships content creator. Coronavirus has made visible an often forgotten group of people – volunteers. Thousands have signed up to help the NHS, local residents’ groups have got together to help those who can’t get to the shops, or to call people who might be experiencing severe isolation. Before lockdown, Woman’s Hour began interviewing women who volunteered in all sorts of areas – from community cafes to food banks and working with the homeless. They're women who see a gap or a problem to be solved, and just get on with it – Troupers. They told their stories to Laura Thomas. Today it’s the turn of Sandy Collver, a volunteer nurse with St Johns Ambulance Sussex Homeless Service.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday 2nd June 2020. We are talking about dating in lockdown and you'll hear too from another fantastic female volunteer hard at work at the moment, Sandy, who works with the homeless on the South Coast. Sandy, one of our contributors to Woman's Hour today. First, though, of course, you'll be aware of the

nationwide protests in the States over the death of George Floyd, an African-American man in police custody in Minneapolis. A white officer, Derek Chauvin, continued to kneel on his neck even after George pleaded that he couldn't breathe. Chauvin's now been charged with third-degree murder. Three other police officers have been sacked. Well, that shocking footage of George Floyd begging for mercy may be new, but the problem isn't, and of course it's not confined to the United States either. What are parents here saying to their children about those horrifying images coming out of the States?

We'll talk now to three parents, three mothers, Teiko Dorner, Amma Okansi and Aisha Small. First of all, to Teiko. Teiko, good morning to you. Morning, Jane. How are you? I'm well, thank you. I hope you are too. Now, you've got three children. Your eldest two are eight and seven. And they're aware of it, that this, they've seen the images or they've heard about it? Well, we've been watching it on the news,

so they have seen it. And so they are aware. I'm not sure how much of it they really digested, but they've definitely seen it. And they've also seen some of the protests as well and some of the protests is arrested so they've been asking a few questions what have they asked well my daughter is very forthright so she just said why are they doing that why are they getting arrested so i just said you know something happened and a man was killed and they're not

happy about it so they want their voices to be heard that they're going out on the street to protest so that other people will try and change the situation you know trying to break it down into kind of bite-sized pieces for them. I know that you and your partner have a disagreement actually about how much your children need to know can you just tell us a little bit about that? Yeah so I am really on the team where I'm just like they're children let them be children you know they don't have to know about the venom of racism at the age of seven and eight let them go to school enjoy their time at school work hard and then if the issue you know comes up when they're older we'll deal with it whereas their dad is more like you know this is the reality of the world people are getting killed

we've got a son we've got a daughter they are black people and there are people out there that will not like them just because their color the sooner they know they're better for everybody i know that you and your your husband differ slightly in the sense that you grew up in london in stanmore in london um you had a happy happy adolescence and, no incidents at all of racism? No, I didn't. And I was talking to some of my old school friends because we all just grew up, went to school. Primary school was amazing. It was literally like one big happy rainbow family.

And so I put a poster on Facebook and Instagram and basically a lot of my friends from other schools and other areas were like, you know, I had incidents where white children wouldn't play with me. They would call me names. Their parents didn't want them to play with me. I was bullied and I just felt like, wow, did this really happen in the UK? Because I went to school, came home, had my dinner, went went to school came home had my dinner went back to school went on my school trips so my experience of racism growing up was kind of like it didn't really affect me and also my my parents I know with regards to my dad um looking back he worked for British Rail and I know that he had some incidents that were just, you know, you're over here, then you go to the next room. But they never sat down and spoke to me about it. So it's kind of now I'm just like, wow, do I really need to have this conversation? And I think, unfortunately, the answer is yes, because we can't ignore it. Well stay with us Teiko. Amma your situation is slightly different you have one

child who's a son he's 11 and again there's disagreement between you and your partner but I think it's the opposite way around to Teiko is that correct? Morning Jane yes it is my husband grew up in Ghana and came to the UK to continue studying medicine. And I grew up here in the UK. I actually came to the UK when I was seven years old. So I've had a very English upbringing and my husband has had a very Ghanaian upbringing. And his view of the world is that there's lots of isms. And having grown up in Ghana,

there was lots of tribalism where there was preferences for people to give grant favours and to prefer people of the same tribe. So his view is that you don't necessarily have to focus on that. Whereas I grew up here and I did have incidences growing up where racism did come up and I had to discuss that with my parents. I have to admit it wasn't severe, it wasn't continuous but things did happen and I did question why people were treating me differently.

In terms of what's happening now and particularly when you think about how much children are exposed to via social media, there is no way that you can stop your very young son seeing these horrendous images i mean is there is there any way you could stop that happening there isn't and to be honest i'd prefer not to um i very much think that he needs to be aware i very much think he needs to be um i think i very much think that things need to be explained to him and he needs to understand the impact of racism in the world and how it could impact his life and his upbringing. So as much as it's violent, as disturbing as it is,

we talk about it and he asks me questions and I explain it because I want him to be prepared. We don't live in an ideal world and I don't want to raise an adult who's naive or isn't aware of the fact that the colour of his skin may make his life very different to that of his white counterparts. Emma, stay with us too. I just want to mention this email from a listener who says, you got the biggest eye roll from me when I heard Jane announce the key topic for Tuesday's edition of the show.

My first thought was, which carob cookie munching, nettle tea drinking imbecile was responsible for that? I'm disappointed, yet not surprised, that editorially it was decided it would be a good idea to tackle the challenges

of raising black children as if black parents are referring to a special handbook that only they have exclusive access to. Which is why I bring in Aisha Small, who works for the YHA and she's in Hertfordshire. Aisha, actually, I think there's quite a bit of that email that you'd go along with, isn't there?

Yeah, I just want to say that I'm here in a personal capacity. Carry on. Yeah, so I do, in some respects, I think that it's traumatising for black people to always have to hear themselves referred to in terms of death and murder and mistreatment. And that is generally what happens when we're talking about the media um even though we all have much for the lives and we're not defined by that um and in some respects it's kind of annoying is that uh we've each been asked to talk about this when we all have views on lots of other topics for for example maybe we have views about dating which is what you're talking about later um but we're only going to be here to talk about basically trauma, which is in essence what black people are always asked to talk about

on mainstream media, pretty much. Well, let's put those points to our other contributors. Teiko, what do you think of that? Well, unfortunately, I think it is true. I mean, we do have stories to share, But for me, as a parent, I'm honestly just looking to listen to other opinions at this moment because I found myself traumatised as an adult and also as a parent, having to do something which I don't necessarily want to do or tackle. I think black people and representation in the media is, I don't know, I would say poor and selective, as she said so rightly.

We are kind of called on to talk about trauma and to talk about, you know, things concerning crime or negative issues. But I think it's also important to hear from other black parents and their experience so that we can share and learn and grow. And also to inform your other listeners who may not know any black people or may not be friends with any black people just to hear our experiences and our stories, because I think this is affecting everybody. I know there have been other cases of violence and racism and you know people do talk about racism black people experience racism and you know sometimes people roll their eyes or say you know what it's just pulling out the race card but for a lot of people they are treated differently on a daily basis they they they feel the change of atmosphere in the room it's something that we all need to address.

So I'm glad that certain platforms are actually opening up and having people talk about their stories, their experiences, and moving forward after George Floyd, the spotlight has kind of moved again and then we're talking about something else in the news I would hope and pray that we still have the opportunity to hear our views

to talk about our stories as part of a society not just a part of society which is only required when there's a crime or there's an incident Right, and again, Amma what do you think of Aisha's central point and the point made by our emailer that it's the same old, same old.

Black women, black people are wheeled out only at times like this and it's not right. I disagree with that because I think that black people are wheeled out to talk about the various different things in society. I think this is pertinent at this time because of what's happened to George Floyd and the fact that there has been no progress. And I think that as adults, we owe it to our children to explain to them and to prepare them for the world. And so, yes, it's disappointing that this is being discussed. We've also got to remember

that we've got Brexit. There are issues about people saying things that they wouldn't have felt that they could say before that. We've got the rise of populism. We've got Trumpism. We've got COVID and its disproportionate impact on Black people.

There's lots of things that are happening in the world that are impacting our race. And it needs to be discussed, but it needs to be balanced. So I don't spend all my time discussing all this stuff with my son and nothing else. I discuss the achievements, arts, the literature, the good things, politics, the successes, how wonderful life is.

So I don't think it has to be a one-all discussion and focus on negativity. I think it needs to be balanced. Well, your son will very soon be a teenager. And I'm just reading a really powerful piece from the Washington Post by Donna F. Edwards. She's written here, alive. That is very powerful. It's extraordinarily emotive, but it really must, unfortunately, strike a chord. Teiko, as your eldest child, your son gets older, some difficult conversations are going to have to be had, aren't they? Yeah, and I think sooner rather than later, I think, because, you know, I've realised, especially especially after this that I can't shield him and

I can't I can't be naive and say that you know once you work hard at school no one's going to judge you you know you're going to be judged by your merits because people are getting killed and generation after generation people are protesting but people are still getting killed so I think as he grows um as he has more contact with the world you know his clubs his societies I need to just let him know that people will some people will judge you negatively because he doesn't even say black people he says because I'm brown people would judge you based on the color of your skin so I don't even think it's something that we're going to be discussing as a teenager I think it will be something in the next within maybe this year or even next year we'll have a

serious talk with both of them as they're getting older just to let them know because even when we talk to them about you know know, white people and black people, my daughter's like, no, mom, they're not white. They're peach. No, mom, we're not black. We're brown. So they're so innocent. But unfortunately, this is the world that we're living in. But I mean, they should be allowed to be innocent. That's what that's the unfairness. One of the many injustices at the heart of all this, is that everyone's entitled to a childhood. Aisha, what would you like to say about that? Yeah, the same. So we have three children.

And on the one hand, I don't think I disagree with Amar and Taiko at root. We're just trying to do the best for our children, really. And I want to shield my children for as long as possible. So they're six, six and nine. But also in doing that, you have to balance what we've decided that we have to try and balance. How do you think that the world's a great place? Because they need to do that to feel safe and secure, but not so much so that they are at risk. So my son's nine.

You know, he'll be 10 this year and next year he'll be going to school on his own and we decided that we really do need to have a much bigger talk with him when he starts to be in places that when he's not there with us so you know but at the same time racism doesn't wait until people are old enough our girls experienced racism when they were four years old in reception so you know as much as i'd like to shield them from it it does still happen um and then we have had to explain to them why it was they were being called names because it was just confusing to them they didn't know why so yeah i don't know i think there's kind of like an escalation so it's kind of you know some people won't like you because of the color of your skin

and then it's like some people might treat you differently because of the sun in your skin and then you know for our son as he's walking around it might be which is the heartbreaking thing you may be in more danger because of this color of your skin and from organizations and institutions that actually are supposed to protect you that's the heartbreaking thing you write very powerfully in your blog aisha about the fact that it is still the case that on the whole it is up to the black woman in the room often to raise injustice and racial inequality. Do you think that's going to stop anytime soon? I would love it to stop. I would absolutely love it to stop. I don't know if it will, but I hope that, you know, white people listen to this or also this is specifically a black

conversation, I think, so non-black people listening to this. I this is specifically a black like conversation i think so non-black people listening to this i hope that they use the outrage and injustice that they feel and that they're talking about to actually go and do things to go and challenge stuff in their day-to-day lives rather than thinking it's something very far away um and you know a terrible thing that happens in america or a terrible thing that happens to other people um the truth is it happens in your workplace. It happens in your school. It happens possibly in your own family if you don't have an exclusively white family. So I think, you know, the blog that I wrote that you're referring to, my mum asked me to take it down because she was worried that it might affect some of my, you know, professional chances. That's, you know, that's the reality

for black people sometimes to talk specifically about race what your mum felt that you were putting yourself out there to a degree that it could make your professional chances a bit limited yeah i mean it's fine obviously i'm here and my my work i find about it but yeah that's that's that was her immediate fear because that's been her experience you know as a slightly older generation um and my dad's experience and the experience of people that they know that it was not safe to talk about race issues at work. And I would say it's still not that safe. My background was previously education. And the things that kind of black teachers say amongst themselves are very different to what they can say actually happens normally. Right. Well, thank you all very much indeed for talking to us I really appreciate it this morning a range of views there you heard lastly from Aisha Small before Aisha

from Amma Akansi and from Teiko Dorner and if you have a point to make please do contact the program either on twitter at bbcwomanshour or you can email the program via our website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour and if you'd like more advice on how you can email the programme via our website bbc.co.uk slash Women's Hour If you'd like more advice on how you can talk to your children about racism and race, well we did cover that topic in a parenting podcast last year and there's also an article

on the Women's Hour website right now I talked to behavioural scientist and diversity consultant Dr Pragya Agarwal and the blogger Freddie Harrell, who shared their experiences and some advice for you. Just go to the Woman's Hour homepage. We've also shared links on our Twitter and Instagram this morning as well, at BBC Woman's Hour, of course.

Please do contact us. And as I illustrated in the email from the listener who didn't like the whole idea in the first place, we do welcome all points of view here. We know we'll never get it 100% right, but we are trying and we need your help to get better. It's as simple as that. So please do keep up your relationship with the programme.

Now, before lockdown, Women's Hour began talking to women who volunteered in all sorts of areas. These are the women who, I've always said this, they're the backbone of Britain. They keep so much stuff happening, so many things going. Volunteered in all sorts of areas. These are the women who I've always said this, they're the backbone of Britain. They keep so much stuff happening, so many things going. Community cafes, food banks, and today working with the homeless. It's the turn of Sandy Culver this morning, a volunteer nurse with St John's Ambulance Homeless Service in Sussex. I would say that probably my feeling about volunteering goes back to where I was born and raised.

I was born and raised in Canada. I was raised on a dairy farm, lovely, idyllic existence. But it was in the 50s and 60s when a lot of people were coming over to Canada after the Second World War, who had come from very traumatic backgrounds, absolutely shattered lives. My mother used to sell eggs from our back door. And she was very kind, loving person, a good listener. And I would sit there as a five or six year old probably hearing stories that maybe a five or six year old shouldn't but it didn't do me any harm in fact it did me a lot of good because I heard her talk to these people listen to these people who had come from such traumatic backgrounds and they had come there to build up their lives again.

And that's really what we do, working with the homeless people. There's a lot of transferable skills there. So at the point that you encounter the people you work with, where are they emotionally, physically? What is the situation that they're dealing with at that point? When people use the word homeless, it is sort of a neat pigeonhole to put people in. People see the visual homeless person on the street, but the journey to homelessness is way beyond that. It's an individual story. That's what we do, is listen to those individual stories.

But it may be because of mental health problems, drug and alcohol problems, financial problems. We see a lot of people who've had very traumatic childhoods, and that's often where it has started, just a real tough time trying to cope with the world. And then we try to make trusting relationships with those people. They generally, it's a very general statement, but find it very hard to trust people. They've been kicked to the curb of life. Why should they trust anybody? The world has treated them pretty badly by that point.

Some people could say, well, that's because of the decisions they've made, but we try not to be judgmental. Anybody who says homelessness couldn't happen to them, they need to think again. It can happen to anybody. Three bad decisions and you can be out on the street. Trust is the first part of any relationship. So once you get that trusting relationship, and it can take time, then you can start to help build that person up. We don't tell people how to live their lives, how to do that process, but we walk beside them and support them at every possible turn. So talk me through a typical shift, if there is such a thing.

It's a walk-in clinic. There's no appointments. People just come and sign up on the board and we see people in roughly that order. I mean, there's obvious priorities if somebody is quite critically ill. It's a nurse-run clinic. Roughly that order. I mean, obviously, there's obvious priorities if somebody is quite critically ill. It's a nurse-run clinic. So we have nurses as well as general volunteers who work in the clinic. We're a small group. There's only 16 of us.

So there's usually two or three of us on at a time. When I come into the hall, I have a good look around, see who's there, people that I may want to catch up with. Then I sort of have a scan of the board to see who needs to see me, possible priority. Some people might need to see me quicker than others. And yeah, we go from there. And it's a lovely, friendly atmosphere. We work out of a place called the Seaview Centre in Hastings. What can be the range of problems that people are bringing you? You use every nursing skill you have acquired. People that you see that are in their 20s, 30s,

40s that live on the street, their bodies and the way they present look a lot older. It really is a devastating life. So they will have problems that I would have expected seeing. For instance, when I worked in the NHS, I would see those problems with people that were much older. They're very vulnerable people, a lot of complex problems. There's no limit on the people that come in to see us. They can come and see us for anything. And if we can't solve the problem, then we'll find out somebody who can. Are there cases that stick in your mind? You know, are there people that you've, you know,

either things, situations that have turned out well or perhaps not well that stay with you? Yeah. And sometimes you will see people that they suddenly vanish and you wonder what happened you know and you just hope that things had worked out okay. I remember seeing a chap this was a few years ago I still think about him he was from London he had drifted down to Hastings he was living in his car but I think that was soon going to be towed away. He had been caught in the financial crisis in London. Very articulate man. Lost his job.

His marriage broke down. Became very depressed. Started drinking, started taking drugs. His wife left, took the children, lost his house, lost everything. Completely broken man, really, in a very short space of time, had lost everything. And I did see him a few times. He was seemingly starting to, he could voice his problems very well, which was good. To me, he was starting to sort of get the confidence back and getting a plan. And, you well, which was good. To me, he was starting to sort of get the confidence

back and getting a plan. And, you know, he was basically just using us as a sounding board and someone to support him and get, you know, give him a bit of confidence that he had so many skills that he would be able to get back into work again and get his life back again, you know so sandy i've got something i want to play to you i've been talking to some of your colleagues hi sandy 10 seconds to say why you're amazing well first one is your warmth and compassion make me feel really happy and really safe and second one i love the way you can look at a situation, you can decide what needs doing to make it better, and then you can do it.

That was Nancy. That was our podiatrist. Yeah. Yeah, she's great, is Nancy. Well, well, well. I've got one more. Sandy is just one of the most amazing people I've ever met. She's one of the kindest, generous people I've got one more. Sandy is just one of the most amazing people I've ever met. She's one of the kindest, generous people I've known.

And it's an absolute honour and a pleasure to work with her every week. How does it make you feel? Well, yeah, it's a bit overwhelming. But how you sounded like Claire, she's the hugging queen. She's never out of hugs to people. And that's very important when you're dealing with a lot of vulnerable people who don't have a lot of human contact. That can make your day, can't it?

You know how nice it is to get a hug, you know, people like us that are in our safe, secure homes. But if you're living out in the cold, yeah, it's pretty special, you know. None of us individually can do this job. We support each other and we work as a team. I mean, it sounds rather trite saying it like that, but we do. They're just the best group of people I think I've ever worked with. And as a team, how do you cope with, I mean, in inverted commas, failure?

You know, the loss of people. Yeah. We never give up on anybody ever um i i think it's sort of failure is not an option there are very sad times i have to say when we lose people and we lose them far too young but the people that we see on a day-to-day basis who are struggling we never give up on them we just we don't you know it just makes you realize when you do have the sad times when we do lose people that you just have to try harder. That's Tracy Thorne, of course, protection.

And the volunteer there was Sandy Culver. And Laura Thomas is the Woman's Hour reporter. Now, let's talk dating in lockdown. How has it all changed? The landscape must have significantly shifted, to put it mildly, with social distancing. Zoe Strimple is the author of Seeking Love in Modern Britain, Gender, Dating and the Rise of the Single. And Aloni is a sex and relationships content creator. She has her own podcast, Laid Bare. Aloni, first of all, good morning to you. Good morning. So it must have changed.

What's happening out there? Yes, it definitely has. Now, with dating, it looks like a lot of people are, you know, using video calling dating apps, for example. There's a lot of people taking their time to be intimate. And there's just also a lot of people who are realizing that you know um that they want a deeper connection with that person so they're taking their time before they i don't know try to meet up or anything so there's definitely been a shift when it comes to the dating world and it's not all bad. I think that is something that a lot of people didn't usually do,

which was just taking their time. A lot of people were, you know, enjoying their flings. Not that that's bad, but there's been less flings. And I guess people, you know, being worried or, you know, just thinking twice about whether or not they want to be in the same space as someone. Sure. Well, I mean, let's be honest about it. Anxiety at this level, and we've all been anxious. It is not an aphrodisiac, is it? It can't be. Not at all. At all. It makes you very paranoid at the same time. So it's just about thinking

of different ways you can still navigate dating and making sure that your health comes first. Zoe, we had a heartbreaking email from a woman in her early 20s, I think a couple of weeks ago, who basically was just saying that the good times are over. She's back at home with her parents and she feels this could be her summer and she's missing out because she daren't get out there um are you hearing a lot of stuff like that um i'm actually hearing a couple of different narratives um mostly surprisingly positive so i think i've heard a lot of women who um mostly women that i've spoken to uh who feel that this has actually been a really welcome reprieve on a number of levels a reprieve from the expectation to I don't know jump into bed which is not you

know anyone's fault but it's just this that's the culture so it's been the sort of opportunities that holding back have have provided and then it's just been a reprieve from dating for some people. The way that the dynamics of sort of Tinder and Bumble and all the apps work is that it can just feel completely overwhelming. Like, you know, you are just throwing so much at the wall and seeing what sticks. And actually for the first sort of two months, say, of lockdown, I think a lot of people just thought,

this is just not patently not the time. So I'm going to just take a step back from it all. And I know a lot of people who just breathed a huge sigh of relief at that. So I think there have actually been some upsides. I think there is a sort of despairing feeling for sure if you think too hard about it because of the timeframes and the uncertainty involved. And if you think about how we feel about putting ourselves at risk with STIs, this is very similar. And it's a really sort of psychologically swampy area, really, it's a really toxic area to feel that you're taking risks with your health for the sake of well, what exactly? So I think people are really having to

figure out what that what is and deciding if it's worth it just on a practical level are the apps and the websites are they all littered with very sensible health advice at the moment zoe um well i have to confess i haven't been spending all that much time on the apps but i think they do i wouldn't i mean the way they present all of their little messages and things is um these is basically like another profile so you're swiping swiping swiping and then suddenly the thing you're swiping is a sort of message saying you know here we at tinder want you to enjoy talking to each other but stay safe but by the time you sort of see it you've already swiped it so that it's in a way because the whole system is rigged up to

be incredibly blasé and quick and callous and swipe everything, those safety messages get lost as well. Right. I mean, it's a brutal world. Alani, the dynamics of a date online, do they work, honestly? They do. And that's another thing about dating apps. A lot of them have tapped into a market of, you know, dating from home. That's what everyone's saying it's called virtual dating at the moment so those are the words that we're using now and it is you can you know pop down to your local corner shop get yourself a bottle of water look forwards to

the evening just like you would um in the real world and you you know you plan a day um a night that you can with um the person of interest and there's just so many ways you can um you know you plan a day um a night that you can with um the person of interest and there's just so many ways you can um you know enjoy yourself as well so it can still definitely work and i guess it helps you filter whether or not you would actually want to meet up with this person can i say i find it hard enough to leave the woman's Hour Zoom meeting and to get the etiquette right. How do you call time on a video date, Iloni? So it's all about just making sure that there is a connection and making sure like, you know, if this person is someone you wouldn't mind having a conversation with. What if you just want to get shot of them within five minutes? Is there an etiquette there? Not really. I don't think there is. So you'd have to basically more or less just treat it like you would when talking to your friends. But you know, even as someone who's currently using dating apps, I found myself, you know, talking to people and saying to myself, you know what, I really like to join to this person, I'll make time for them tonight. And we can have a virtual date and see how it goes from there. Yeah, okay. Listening to you both, I don't know,

there's sort of cautious optimism out there that maybe this could be a summer of love, just not quite the one we were all expecting. It'll be fascinating to hear people in the decades ahead reminiscing about how their parents got together in what promises to be the long, hot summer of 2020. Thank you both very much indeed for that. And if you have any thoughts or any experiences you're willing to share, we don't necessarily need to use your real name, but we could shoehorn your email into the podcast later. You can contact the programme via our

website. You heard there from Aloni and from Zoe Strimple. Now, this is totally different. Could Neanderthal genes be influencing the fertility of modern humans? New research shows that one in three European women have inherited sections of Neanderthal DNA that makes them less likely to bleed in pregnancy, have fewer miscarriages and more children. I talked this morning to Dr. Hugo Zeeberg, who's from the Karolinska Institute in Sweden and the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany. He told me how we know that Neanderthal DNA might be useful for women's fertility. So what we have shown is that one in three European women has a Neanderthal gene variant

that increases their chance of giving birth. And how do we know that they carry this gene variant? Well, we have really good quality DNA from Neanderthals, which we can compare to modern humans. And then we look in big databases and check for the risk of having bleeding during early pregnancy or miscarriage. And then we find the surprising fact that women carrying this gene variant actually have a less risk of bleeding during early pregnancy and less miscarriage. Why? Why? So this gene variant is the receptor for the sex hormone progesterone. And progesterone is a hormone produced mainly by the ovaries

and the uterine lining responds to this sex hormone. And this Neanderthal gene variant seems to be more sensitive. Actually, we believe that it is expressed more, meaning that we have more receptors. So the uterine lining is more sensitive to this hormone. And progesterone is a pregnancy-preserving hormone, I could say. So in really simple terms, that gene variant would enable the uterus to hang on to a pregnancy. It would be a more welcoming environment for a fetus. Exactly. That's a very nice way to put it. So let me just go back into the mists of time now. In terms of Neanderthal DNA, whereabouts in Europe did they live? The Neanderthals, they lived in a large portion of Europe, and actually also in Western Asia,

and extending it even to Siberia. So they lived in a quite vast area. And they met modern humans perhaps 50,000, 60,000 years ago. And then they mixed these two populations. But it was not just one encounter. It seems to have been quite common, actually, that they mixed with each other. And where did you get your Neanderthal DNA from? So the DNA is in the bones. And by technical advances, the group I work with has for many years worked on how to extract this DNA.

And the DNA has survived for hundreds of thousands of years. And then you can read it as you would read the DNA of a person living today. Is there any way of a woman knowing whether or not she does have this gene variant? Yes, you can test yourself with a DNA test, in fact. Yeah, but are they accurate? Those things you can just order, are they really that accurate? They are getting more accurate, actually, yes. The important thing is that the test actually covers this region of your genome, this piece of DNA. Right. But if it does, it's quite accurate.

This is probably a really stupid question, but why did Neanderthals die out? Because if their gene variant makes it more likely that a woman will have any number of healthy children, why did Neanderthals die out? That's the billion-dollar question. If you would ask different scientists, they would give you different answers. So for the moment, we are just speculating. But there seems to have been changes in the environment, and modern humans seems to have had a little bit more advanced technology but that is just speculation we really don't know why they died out on the other hand one can say that they actually mixed with us so they are actually still in a way kind of living today and how will all this help women who are desperate to conceive right now? So I don't

want to give false hopes because this sole finding is not the answer, the full answer at least, to this problem many women are facing of recurrent miscarriages. But it points towards the direction of the importance of progesterone and I hope future research will take into account our finding and perhaps it will benefit women in the long term. If you know about this, if you carry this urine or not, you're perhaps in more need of progesterone treatment because you can actually have progesterone pessaries if you have this history of bleedings.

But I would, this finding in itself is not the full answer to this, but it points in the direction for the scientific field to carry on research in this area. Well, there we are. That's something I didn't know I'd be talking about until, to be fair, about 24 hours ago. But that's the wonderful world of Women's Hour for you. That was Dr. Hugo Zeeberg from the Karolinska Institute in Sweden.

And he also works at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany. And that was just something I knew nothing about. So there we go. We've all been educated today. Now, to your thoughts on other items in the program today. But before we get on to your, particularly your views on the first conversation we had this morning, let's just hear some more contemporary experiences of dating in lockdown. Because this is really interesting. This is Katie, who's 21 and a student. During the lockdown, I wouldn't say I've really had any virtual dates. I've been speaking to a

lot more people mostly boys from my past that have got back in touch one of which it was my very first boyfriend from when I was 16 which is really strange but it's really nice like just catching up and I think after all of this I personally don't think I'd be meeting up or doing anything with someone I didn't know no random boy is gonna be involved in my life for a very long time but um the whole lockdown has really changed my perspective on relationships I think and I think it's been a good thing like it's encouraged me to grow out of the casual one-night-stand sort of lifestyle and I think I'm ready to kind of be more of an adult and the next thing that happens will hopefully be more long-term.

That's Katie, 21 and a student in Nottingham. This is Rachel who's in her early 30s. Now she's a single mum and she lives in Rochester in Kent. I am still talking to men but they are always willing to meet up and at the moment with the current pandemic I'm not willing to meet up with anyone and I have my son to think about he's three years old and there are people out there who are asymptomatic which means that they have the virus but they don't have any symptoms. So if I was to meet up with someone and potentially caught Covid I would then be bringing it home to my son which is quite selfish. It's changed the way I date dramatically. At the moment I don't feel like I'm going to meet anyone during this pandemic which is okay because I do have to think about other people.

That's Rachel explaining her situation right now. Thanks to Rachel and indeed to Katie. And we're still looking for your thoughts on dating in the 21st century lockdown. It's a pretty extraordinary phase of all our lives. And I guess it is just having to put a lot of this stuff on hold. Although, as Rachel indicates, some blokes out there are still more than happy to hook up.

They know what their priorities are. Right, let's go back to the much more important issue of where we started the programme today and the conversation I had with three mothers. So Caitlin says, and she isn't alone in saying this,

please do a programme on what white parents say to their white kids about racism and how they can educate their children to respond to racism when they see it. This is a white problem and white people need to deal with it. It shouldn't be just kids of colour who've got to deal with this at a very young age. From Hattie, black people are left to do all the work on these issues,

as well as bearing the trauma again and again, generation after generation. Why are we not having programmes with white people, focusing on unpicking whiteness, its power, and the fact that we haven't changed anything? White people need to do the work work and your programme should address this. From Susie, I remember Michelle Obama describing the talk that black parents have to give their children about the police. No white parent has ever had to be aware of that, says Susie. From another listener, the only person with whom I really agreed this morning didn't actually

appear on the programme. That was the Ghanaian father who pointed out that prejudice is universal. We do our children a great disservice if we don't teach them that. We need to teach our children that any prejudice is wrong. Discrimination by race, colour, religion, disability are sadly common to all of us to a greater or lesser extent. I think if we don't accept this then we are deluding ourselves. This from Gayna. I thought there was a vagueness to this feature. First you conflated an incident in a different country to the experience of black people in Britain. I've recently seen a post by Wanda Sykes who said addressing white people in

America you can't expect the victim to solve the problem. My opinion is that you should have included white people in your discussion of racism. I come from a white family in a white area, but I was brought up not to be racist. Any casual remark we wouldn't even have recognised as racism would be challenged by my father. Schools have anti-racist policies. There'll

be police authorities who are dealing with this issue. Don't let it be a knee-jerk reaction to one event. This from Estelle. Why was there a focus on how black parents talk to black children about racism and not how white parents talk to their children about racism? It was misleading and your images on social media only had black parents and children. Is there a space for you to do a feature on how white people have conversations with their children or if they do and what they teach them?

That is a fair point, Estelle, and we will endeavour to do exactly that. From a listener who doesn't want her name read out, I am the white mother of a black child and I'm alarmed by how invisible I am. I've also worked with young people for most of my career and noticed that the black children of white mothers often struggle with a range of issues.

My son has his black father at home with him, but many don't and their white mothers are largely ignored in a dialogue about children who need to be supported to develop pride and confidence in themselves. I could never do this without the support of my black friends. Personally, I cannot watch the video of the dying George Floyd and I notice that we're not shown videos of white people dying so casually. That is an entirely fair point. Thank you for making it. And from another listener, this is interesting. My husband and I fair point. Thank you for making it. And from another listener,

this is interesting. My husband and I are white. Our adopted twins are black. They're four. And it's a conversation I know we're going to have to have at some point. But at the moment, we are colourblind. My heart breaks to think they might one day experience racism. I want to scream at all this injustice and haven't been able to watch the clip of George suffocating to death. It's brutal. It is brutal. And yes, there isn't. What else can you say to that except acknowledging the obvious? Thank you to everybody who contacted the programme today. I cannot emphasise enough. We are not looking for endless people telling us how fabulous we are. We need to hear from people who think that

what they've heard on the programme wasn't good enough, didn't cover a wide enough range of issues or just wasn't what they wanted to hear. If we don't hear from you, we're not going to change. So keep us aware, please. You can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. And Jenny is here tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.