Woman's Hour - Talking to your kids about race, HRT shortages, and the demise of the bonkbuster novel

Episode Date: August 13, 2019

Talking to your kids about race. The UK is currently facing a shortage of hormone replacement therapy (HRT). What should you do if your normal supply of HRT tablets, skin patches or gels is unavailable? We hear from GP & menopause specialist Dr Hannah Short.Plus Jane Garvey visits Kitty's Launderette in Anfield which provides much needed washing facilities in one of Liverpool's most deprived areas. And we ask; Why have so called "bonkbuster" novels fallen out of favour with women - and look at what's taken their place.Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Freddie Harrel Guest; Dr Pragya Agarwal Guest; Lauren Milne Henderson Guest; Maisie Lawrence Guest; Sareeta Domingo

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast, Tuesday the 13th of August 2019. Today, how and when you should talk to your children about race and racism, whoever you are, wherever you live. Bonk busters, maybe they're fading, but erotic fiction is everywhere. And what about fan fiction? A full discussion on the podcast today. And Liverpool's new community laundrette, named after the Irish immigrant who set up the city's first public wash house. First this morning, the HRT shortage story rumbles on back in the papers again today. What are the facts? And actually, does anybody know what is

causing this? I talked to Dr. Hannah Short, who's a GP specialising in the menopause and premenstrual disorders. I asked if there were shortages all over Europe. A lot of us who kind of work in this area aren't aware that it is really a Europe-wide issue. It seems to be more of a UK-wide issue. So I think there's other things going on, as well as the manufacturing issues, say, to do with the adhesive.

The adhesive? What element is that exactly? You know, you have like an oestrogen or a combined HRT patch. It's the stuff that will kind of obviously cause that to stick to the skin. So apparently there was a problem with one of the patches where the adhesive wasn't working. So the patches were coming off. So that particular company having to redo their patches. It is really quite strange. It may be that we don't have the full awareness of what's going on elsewhere, but it isn't something that I've heard spoken about by European colleagues. I may be wrong, but I was at

a conference in Berlin in May and was asking people about supply issues then because to be honest, these issues have been going on since the end of last year. And they said they weren't aware of any supply issues. And that becomes quite frustrating because I think a lot of us are still in the dark as to the real reason for why lots of them are out of stock. And what should you do if you just can't get hold of the HRT on which you are reliant for whatever reason? Well, the first port of call is obviously going to be your doctor, and I think it's important for people to know that there are HRTs available it's not that all HRT is out of stock or there's you know supply issues

every single HRT out there so there will be something I think the difficulty is for some women they might have spent ages searching for the one that suits them so I think it's managing as best you can with any whatever equivalent is able to be offered and also looking at lifestyle things that you can do, you know, trying to reduce stress. And obviously this does produce some stress. I'm afraid it does, doesn't it? Yes, absolutely. and obstetrician recommended that more women go on HRT for a string of reasons, not least the fact that it can really protect them in later life if they are on it in their midlife years. So it is depressing, isn't it, that at this very moment, it's hard to get hold of and as you say, is making people very stressed? Well, it's really frustrating, but I think maybe one of the positives,

if there can be a positive answer, it may be part of the supply issues is due to the fact that there is increased demand, which in a weird way is a good thing because we are raising awareness and women are maybe asking for HRT because they don't feel they have to put up with unpleasant and difficult symptoms anymore. And so hopefully things will smooth themselves out. It could be an opportunity to optimise regimes. So some women may even find a new HRT regime which will suit them better or will be safer for them in the long term. Because often it's not completely to do with the old-fashioned tablet forms of HRT, but they are some of the ones that are having some of the major issues.

But it may not always be the best choice for a woman and has more risks than, say, some of the oestrogen patches and gels that you have through the skin so I think that's a positive thing although it's probably hard to see that I suppose now especially if it's taken somebody months or years to find something which really suits them and I really feel for those people who are affected. I mean the main thing I think is going back to their doctor and just saying you know what else is there or speaking to their pharmacist. The British Menopause Society have published some resources saying, you know, what may be available or when they're likely to be issues.

So normally if somebody is relatively knowledgeable, they should be able to switch to something that may not be a direct equivalent, but may be something that is pretty good. I think the problem a lot of women will express is that they know more about the menopause often than their GP. That does present a challenge, doesn't it? Yes, it does. And it's something that a lot of us who are in this area are working on, trying to raise awareness. But there are guidelines when it comes to diagnosing and managing the menopause. There's the NICE guidelines, which were published in 2015. There are resources from British Menopause Society,

the primary care women's health forum, which doctors are able to access and which can help them if it's not their area where they feel particularly confident. So all doctors do have access to that. I think one thing that's important to say about the HRT shortage, it isn't just affecting menopausal women, which is obviously a huge cohort of women, but also affecting younger women who have a diagnosis of premature ovarian insufficiency. So they need it for their bones and their heart. Women who have severe premenstrual disorder, such as PMDD, and also trans women. So it's affecting a huge number of people across the population at the moment.

And to the cynics amongst us who are saying this would be taken so much more seriously if there was a shortage of Viagra, what would you say? I think that there's probably something to it that a lot of women's health issues aren't taken that seriously, which is something I know, obviously, you talk about on Women's Hour. Oh, we take it very seriously. Yeah, exactly.

So I think there probably is something to that. And I think things like the menopause and things like the severe premenstrual disorders, I think that there hasn't been enough awareness about until recently. And so hopefully maybe something like this will kind of bring it to the forefront and make people realise that actually it does affect women's lives. And some women really struggle to function without their medication. It's not just a lifestyle choice drug. Some people, it's a medical necessity, and they really need it to feel well and to be able to kind of live life properly. That's Dr Hannah Short. Here's Dawn on Twitter who says,

My local pharmacist has told me he has a supply of my brand, which is generally about as easy as rocking horse poop to source. Now I just can't get a GP appointment to get a prescription, and I can't get a GP appointment to get a prescription. And I can't get a prescription without an appointment. So that's Dawn's experience. We've already had a lot of emails from you on the subject of the HRT shortage. But, of course, you might well have more to say after hearing Hannah.

So contact us now via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour or use social media as well, of course. There's a link on the website to the british menopause society and you can also of course hear our series on all aspects of the menopause i mean the what you say what you like about this program but no one can accuse us of not discussing every aspect of the menopause and there's loads of stuff for you on the womanshour website right now now talking to your children children and perhaps just to your friends about race and racism, no matter what your ethnicity, your children may at some point have some questions, some of them rather awkward, about who they are, where they are, where other people are from, what they look like, all these things. We've all been in those situations over the years with young children. We're going to talk now to Dr. Pragya Agarwal, who has three daughters. She is a behavioural scientist and a diversity consultant. She's in our Liverpool studio

this morning. Pragya, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. And with me in London is Freddie Harrell, who is an entrepreneur and a blogger. Freddie, welcome to you. Thank you. Really good to see you both. You have a toddler son, Freddie. How old? Yes, it's going to be 3N of November. Right, okay. Causing trouble?

Yes. A certain amount of jolly mayhem in your household. Very opinionated and confident. Opinionated? Okay, good. I'm glad to hear it. Now, Pragya, your three daughters range in age, don't they? Yes, my eldest is 22 and I've got three-year-old twins. So yes,

big age gap between them. Now, what kind of conversations did you have with your oldest child? Well, that's the interesting thing because I was a single parent for quite a long time and I was quite young and I brought her here. We moved to the UK. And so I don't think I explicitly talked to her about race and racial inequalities, although we did talk about injustices and looked at role models from. But I think the main focus was trying to make your mark and work hard. And I think over the years, I realized that not talking to her about race or racial, even when we were racially profiled, when she was around 10, we were stopped by the police once, which came as a shock. What do you mean racially profiled? So we were in a supermarket or we were just having a nice day out.

And then somebody thought that there had been a spate of shoplifting around in the area. And we always lived in quite white, predominantly white areas. So I think they called the police because they thought we looked different. And so a policeman stopped us and just had a conversation. But I think I could see the shock on her face. She was just 10 and it was hugely shocking.

And what I did was try to calm her down and try to just make her understand that these things happen. But we didn't really explicitly talked about race. And then she studied in predominantly white schools and played in orchestras. And mostly she was the only Indian person there. And then she went to an elite university, which was predominantly white. And I think I realized over the years that it affected my mental health, but also her mental health. And so I learned a lot over the years that it affected my mental health, but also her mental health. And so I learned a lot

over the years with my experience with her. Right. So based on your experience with your eldest daughter, what are you doing with your younger daughters? I think it's also very different with them because they are mixed heritage. They're part Scottish, part Indian, and we live in a very non-diverse area. So for me, for them to take pride in their Indian heritage is really important because that might not happen naturally. And they are also not very distinctly coloured in the sense that they're white passing. So that can also mean that they have certain privileges that come with it. And I feel like, so they go to nursery where they're the only mixed heritage children. There's nobody in the staff. So they're not seeing people from diverse backgrounds around them.

So I think for me, it has been really important that I bring in diverse books and diverse media and talk to them explicitly that look, everybody's skin color is different and people might have different skin colour because children are not colour blind they notice skin colour like any other physical difference like glasses or long hair or height or anything like that. Children notice everything and say everything don't they? Yes absolutely. They have no filter. Freddie tell us your son is he is tiny but he is a he's growing up in London at the moment as a young mixed race boy. Yeah. But your husband is, well, he is, you describe him, actually, I'm going to leave it up to you.

We had very different upbringings. He was, you know, he grew up in boarding school and it's like a different world, kind of like more of a posh world. And that kind of background, we'll double bar it names, not his, but kind of this world. And me, you know, I was born and raised in France. I was raised in France. So it's very interesting. Like our son is, you know, he's half white and half black and he's not really half French. You know, I realize I only speak to him in French because that's my culture, but he doesn't have French blood.

And then obviously, like he's British and from, you know I realize I only speak to him in French because that's my culture but he doesn't have French blood and then obviously like he's British and um from you know from this background for me it's really important as well to um frame all of those layers of identities with him and with the family. Having um the obviously married to you and with now a young son I imagine you're very traditional if I can put it that way. It's probably the wrong way to put it. But anyway, British partner is seeing the world in a whole different way, isn't he? Absolutely. I think, you know, Tom, my husband, when he grew up, you know, he first he was, you know, in Tutting and he went to the local school there in Streatham.

And really, like, it was very diverse, really loved it. When he moved to um you know um boarding school that was also like a shock for him and even where he is now you know he's 40 and he's still also kind of like you know coming to terms with this whole experience and this whole almost like shaping and the expectations laid on you so he but at the same time the thing the advantage is that for him he's he he was really affected and not necessarily in a positive way. But this whole experience, he's always been kind of like, you know, just very diverse with people around him anyway. And so the challenge now is that all of the friends that he grew up with in this world, he grew up in, you think they're a certain way. And then when you bring different people,

you know, like you have a black wife and you have a mixed race son, you're exposed to new opinions, new, you know, like point of views from people that you thought you really knew well. And it goes to show you that these things, you know, racism or bias doesn't make someone a bad person. It doesn't, you know, like redefine you completely. No, no.

But the difficulty is, and you know this and you have already talked about it, is that your delightful, lovely, cuddly little boy might one day be seen by some people, not rightly, as some sort of threat. That's hideous, isn't it? Absolutely. If you look at Barack Obama, Barack Obama, you know, he's half white. He was raised by his white mother. Everyone refers to him as a black man.

So, and especially, you know, so I want to be prepared for all of the situations. I think, you know, having Hugo has been, is an amazing journey for me. You know, my whole journey so far was me as a black woman and I had Hugo and then a year later you know I lost my dad and when I lost my dad my brother who I was already close to we got even more closer and you know I was kind of like open to much more like the experience of the black man in society which I think I didn't realize before like all of the things that my dad left with, you know, like the sorrow, the frustrations, you know, all of this.

And so I see that. And obviously I see the privileged background of my husband, but also the downfall and the downsides of it. So what do you say to your little boy? So for me, it's really always insisting on how nice he is. We always say you're friendly, you're nice, you know, even if you not tell him off, but tell him don't do this, don't do that, he can get really upset. For me, it's very important to remind those boys, and he has a lot of energy, to remind that he's

nice, he's friendly, because it's so quick to say you're naughty, you know, some boys are cheeky, and some are naughty, and they're bad. It's very, I don't want him to think that there's anything devilish or anything wicked in him. It's very important that he's human and his feelings are valid, all of his emotions. Yeah, I'm sure you'd agree, Pragya, that the experience of your little girls is likely to be different, isn't it? They won't be seen in quite the same way. No, absolutely. And also I agree with Freddie about my husband is Scottish, and he brings with him white privilege. And I think he's had to acknowledge and learn so much. And I think as parents, we have to accept and acknowledge and be aware of our own implicit biases, because the way we are brought up and the way we grow up and the people we have around us and our parents and our friends

shape so much about it. And so, in fact, I'm writing a book about unconscious bias at the moment, which is coming out early next year, about how we can educate ourselves. And so I think that's what we are doing both as a couple, educating ourselves as much as possible so that they grow up and they understand their privileges, but also when they might be seen differently by other people as well. So I think that can affect their sense of identity. And for children's mental health and physical health, I think it's really important that they have a sense of belonging and a sense of identity.

Do your children go to a nursery, do they, Pragya? Yes, yes, they go to a nursery. And how what have they said about it? Well there's nobody so I was really surprised that there's no other child who's even mixed race or non-white there or even amongst the staff which is very unusual in today's world and so they haven't seen anybody who looks different to them or to except me and their elder sister. So when we actually went to India for the first time in March, they were quite and they actually shot for a Bollywood film in Glasgow last year. And they were quite fearful of people who initially and they were really reluctant to be near them. And I realized that they were just because they were unfamiliar to them.

And children from as young as three months old start noticing familiar skin colour. And so they were watching us, me and my husband and our reactions to people to pick up cues about how we would react if we were awkward or uncomfortable or if we were just making it a norm. So I think for them it's really important that they don't understand whiteness is a norm. They understand that people are different.

Is any child just too young to be bothered by any of this, Pragya? I think it's important to obviously do it in an age-appropriate way. But we have to start early because children, as I said, from as young as three months start noticing. And at three years old, they have this transductive reasoning where they say that if people are alike in one way, then they must be alike in other ways. So stereotypes start forming. So it's important we start talking about bringing diverse books. I think that's really, really important. So they don't just see that one kind of person is the norm.

They start seeing these different diverse characters, that people do different things. They look at role models that people might have a different skin colour, can behave in a certain way. Just because somebody has a skin colour doesn't mean that they will be like everybody else who has the same skin colour. So I think it's never too early. And as they grow older, they can start learning more about history and stories and part of our heritage. And because if they understand history,

then they understand the future and the present. I think that's really important. Yeah, no, thank you. Freddie, you've been very public about the challenges you know your son is going to face. What reaction have you had to that? Well, I think I've had a lot of positive reaction. Most people, they were really, you know,

like this conversation, like, you know, the conversation around first like mixed race couples and then uh you know like raising a mixed race boys and having um there's so many things that are said out loud and so many like you know in this day and age like people have a lot of opinions around those things so every time that you say something and people can relate to experience you're always going to be supported i feel like a lot of people were in my situation and don't really know how to navigate that i feel like a lot of people who are in my situation and don't really know how to navigate that. I feel like a lot of people think that because we are black or from minorities, we are like born natural

to be comfortable in those conversations. And you're like, no, like we're just pushed into them. And it's not exactly. And we come across as these people who can be defensive and can be angry or aggressive. Like, oh, you always talk about these things. But why do you think that I do? I don't enjoy it as much as you think I do.

And if you find it uncomfortable, just imagine that for me, it's much more uncomfortable. It's not nice to have to completely to always remind people that, you know, like we are the same thing. We are just one. You're not better or inferior. Pragya? Yes, absolutely. I think race is real and consequences of racism and racial inequality are real. And people who are black or brown or mixed race or people of color, they don't have the privilege to not talk about this because we parents and people who are not people of color or who are white to actually understand that acknowledge that and actually take an active role in talking about it I think that's exactly what I

say to my husband absolutely my husband for me I always tell him it's an amazing opportunity that you have here because absolutely you can you know, just extend that to your circle. You know, he was at a dinner party at a bar there recently. I was in there and I was speaking to a friend about Hugo

and, you know, him being careful around the way he's treated and one of his friends was like, oh, like, you're very into these, you know,

like race topics, aren't you? And then, but like, yeah, I know. I mean, it's the same in my husband. I know what you said.

Yeah, but you know, you had to say, it was like, but, you know, like, do you say, so where do you think Barack Obama is? And I said, he's black. Like, what do you see? So I have a black son. So I have skin in the game. So of course, I'm into these topics. What do you mean? I know my husband has had to learn so much. I mean, he's amazing. And he's really like talking about these things actively but we live in this illusion this myth that we live in a post-racial world but that's not true so we can't just pretend that color or race doesn't exist and people have to talk about it particularly in the circumstances i really hate to interrupt you both but i'm gonna have to but thank you so much uh pragya agarwal and freddie harrell thank you very much for coming in um i know there'll be lots of reaction to that

keep it coming at bbc women's hour on social media Kitty's Laundrette opened up in Anfield in May. It's a community facility in one of the most deprived parts of Liverpool. It was the brainchild of local women and inspired and named after Kitty Wilkinson, an Irish immigrant and mother who founded the city's first public wash house. I met some of the women involved there, social historian Kerry Giverson, Grace Harrison, and first up, Rachel O'Byrne. This is the area of Liverpool I'm from, so I'm a Northender, and I think that it's definitely fair to say

that Liverpool Football Club do and have dominated the area. And I think this area has waited a long time for big regeneration that never really arrived. And the type of regeneration that did come wasn't necessarily people-driven and community-driven. So it's really had its fair share and more than its fair share of problems. But I think what's really happening now is that people are coming together and we're building it from the grassroots. Grace why the

idea for a laundrette? We were thinking about what kinds of spaces do people get together we were thinking about the fact that they are warm there's benches you've got a bit of time and I think a really big factor for us was thinking about them as being really accessible spaces so pretty much everybody knows what they are, they feel like I know what on the whole goes on there and you know everybody needs to wash their clothes so it's quite a unifying basic need and so we thought if we could meet basic needs but also then add other things to that.

So whether it's just a cup of tea and a chat, or whether it's that there might be something on the walls, a photography exhibition you might want to look at, or a reading group on and you might want to join that. There's a kind of potential to encounter stuff that you might not naturally feel like you could go to, but you might find that it's actually something you really enjoy or make a new friend. So you had the idea how long between that idea and all this being open? About three to three and a half years and we sought a lot of advice from other community-based organisations and then we found the space about a year ago we did did a planning application, did a crowdfunding campaign. How much did you need?

We asked for £14,000 originally for the Kickstarter and we felt really nervous about asking for that amount of money and it was the most nerve-wracking thing to do. It was the first thing we looked at in the morning and the last thing we looked at at night. How much you were getting? Yeah, we had a really good start and then it kind we looked at at night. How much you were getting? Yeah, we had a really good start and then it kind of dipped and we were like, oh, are

we going to make it? And then we actually raised £21,000. I'm fortunate in many ways and I have a washing machine at home and a tumble dryer, which obviously I try not to use very often, but I do still use it. How many people around here would need on a weekly basis or twice weekly basis to use a laundrette so I think that there was a lot of want for particularly things like a tumble dryer so a lot of people don't have a tumble dryer they're extremely expensive to use they're really environmentally friendly they're really expensive to buy a face so we in our research we were finding a lot of people using lending companies where you you know you've got yn anodd i'w gael yn gyntaf. Felly, yn ein ymchwil, rydym yn dod o hyd i lawer o bobl yn defnyddio gweithgareddau llen, lle mae gennych chi'r cyfrif ar y tic a'ch bod yn cael eich cymorth

ychydig o bach. Yn wir, mae'r ffordd yma yn ddiddorol iawn o wneud pobl sy'n ar gael ar ddigon o ganlyniadau yn gwneud cymorth ar ddigon o gwerthau gwyddoedd sydd eu hangen. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, mae cael cyfle lle rydym yn rhannu'r adnoddau hynny fel cymuned yn angen i ni, ac yn ddefnyddio'r cyfrif ynau hynny fel gymuned, mae'n rhaid iawn ac yn ddefnyddiol iawn. Felly rydyn ni wedi bod yn agor am ddwy mis ac rydyn ni'n wirioneddol ymwneud. Yn gyntaf, Jolene, rydych chi wedi bod yn ddefnyddwr cyffredinol o'r Laundret ers ei gael ei agor, a ydy'r gwir? Ie, ers ei agor, ie.

A beth yw'r ddiffyg? Yn amlwg, mae'n gwych i'r cymuned a'i gynnal pobl i gyd. Mae'n lle gwych, felly mae'n dda i chi ddysgu a chyfeirio, efallai cael ychydig o tŷ a phethau. Ie, mae'n gwych, felly mae'n dda i chi ddysgu a chyfeirio, a chadw'ch dŵr a chyfrif bach o tŵr. Mae'n hyfryd. Yn ymddygiad, mae'n lle i gyfrifo rhai pethau ddefnyddiol. Efallai y bydd rhai yn dweud gwybodaeth, ac efallai y bydd rhai yn dweud sgwrs. Yn sicr.

Mae'n dda i bobl sydd wedi cael dydd o weithio a'n rhaid iddyn nhw ddysgu, yn eistedd yn eich tŷ, ac mae'n dda i siarad gyda phobl. Mae rhai pobl yn lonesig, felly mae'n dda i iddyn nhw ddechrau gwaith ac mae angen iddyn nhw wneud eu llwythoedd, yn eistedd yn eich tŷ, rydych chi'n ei gael gyda phobl ac mae'n dda i siatio. Ie, mae rhai pobl yn lonesig, felly mae'n dda i allu cyd-dreisio. Mae'n lle da i'r cymuned. Mae'r prises yn... Yn edrych ar hyn, mae'n gyfartalol, ond... Ie, mae'n hyfryd. Ie, mae'n dda iawn.

Mae llawer o gwestiynau yn dod i mewn ac mae pawb yn ffynnu amdano, fel bod pawb yn ei fwynhau. Mae'n ysbryd y cymuned honno o, pam mae'n rhaid i ni i gyd ddewis ein llwythoedd a'r drysau? Gallem ni ddod at ei gilydd a dechrau rhannu'r adnoddaudol y cymuned y byddwn ni i gyd yn gorfod gael ein fachyngau a chyflawni. Gallem ni ddod ynghyd a dechrau rhannu'r adnoddau hyn fel cymuned. Mae hynny'n bwynt da iawn. Gadewch i ni ddod i'r cyfarwyddwr cymdeithasol, Kerry. Os ydych chi'n ddim yn hoffi fy hun yn ei ddisgrifio.

Yn y dydd, roedd hyn yn y ffordd y byddai'n cael ei wneud. Doedd nid y bobl yn cyd-dreisio'n gilydd mewn llyfrau llyfrau? Roedd hynny'n ei enw? Yn y bryd, mae hanes llyfrau llyfrau Llyedd hynny'n ei enw? Ie, mae hanes Llyfrau Llyfrau Llyfrau yn fawr iawn ac yn ddiddorol iawn. Felly rydyn ni'n gwneud prosiect ymchwil o'r enw Hanging Out, hanes Llyfrau Llyfrau Llaundry Life. Mae'r prosiect hon yn hanes oral ac mae'n arwain cymunedol. Felly, yr hyn rydyn ni am ei wneud yw edrych ar llyfrau llyfrau gwaith oedd yn Llyfru a'u mapio. Felly, yn amlwg, mae'r strydau Llyfrau wedi

newid, ac maen nhw'n ddim yn gwybod o'nabod o'r ffordd y gwerthu'r llyfrau oedol. Yn enwedig o'r cyfnod o'r ddiweddol, roedd gennych chi'r dymolwch o lawer o'r llyfrau ac roedd pobl wedi symud allan i Kirby a siarad. Felly, beth rydym am ei wneud yw gwneud ymwneud â'r llyfrau oedol yma, y strydau lle maen nhw oedd, ac i gael mynediad byw o'r fenywod sy'n defnyddio'r llyfrau oedol yma. Yr hyn rydych chi'n ei ddod o'r amser yw nad yd wleidyddion sy'n defnyddio'r llyfrau. Yn aml, mae'r llyfrau yn lle cymunedol, lle mae pobl yn mynd i gwrdd, yn sgwrsio, yn gallu cael gosip, te a chwp o bwys. Fel rhan o'r prosiect hanesyddol, rwyf wedi cyflwyno wleidyddion yn yr ardal lleol.

Rwy'n cofio themau o'r ymdrech a'r cydweithredaeth a'r ffrindiau. Gallai gael pram sylfaenol sy'n cyfuno'r llyfrau, really of sort of sisterhood and comradeship and friends so they might have a shared big old silver cross pram and they would load their washing on top of it take it down to the wash house. What age are we talking about what era? Well this might have been in the 60s and maybe the early 70s as well and the women would park their prams outside the wash house and they might pay a young boy to watch these prams. The same lads that would watch your car if you're up at the game probably i actually interviewed a man a couple of weeks ago and he told me that it was his highlight of his week because he got his sweet money off these

women some women would take other women's washing to the wash house and get paid to do it but most of the time of course it is part of domestic life and these women might be washing for three four five six children can you imagine i can only just imagine i mean it used to be was monday always o bywydolol ac mae'r bobl hyn yn gallu gwneud ysgog ar gyfer 3, 4, 5, 6 plant. Allwch chi ddangos? Gallaf ddim ddangos yn unig. Roedd yn amlwg bod ysgog ar ddiwrnod. Yn rhai diwrnod, mae'r bobl hyn yn llynu eu slotiau eu hunain. Felly, maen nhw'n mynd gyda'r un bobl, maen nhw'n mynd gyda'u rhwydwyr,

maen nhw'n mynd gyda'u rhwydr neu hyd yn oed eu mwyaf. Ac mae'n digwyddiad gwirioneddol ac mae'n rhan wir o'u wythnos. Ac mae'n gwaith ffisigol. Maen nhw'n cael ysgog ac yn defnyddio'r doli i bwysleisio ysgog, i'w lly ac mae'n gwaith ffisigol. Maen nhw'n cael y llwythoedd ac maen nhw'n defnyddio'r doli i bwyllgwyd y llwythoedd i'w llwythoedd yn wirioneddol. Ac mae'n swydd iawn, roedd yn rhan iawn o'u bywydau. Mae'r enw hwn yn Cytti's Launderette ac roedd Cytti'n berson gwirioneddol? Ie, mae hanes Cytti Wilkinson yn hynod o ddiddordeb. Felly fe wnaeth hi ddynnu'r symud o'r llwythoedd, felly dechreuodd yma yng Nghymru. Felly, fe ddododd o'r Iwerddon ac

sefydlodd yng Nghymru ynynhyrchu Cynhyrchu Cynhyr wasn't great this is 18 mid-1800s so about maybe 1830s and she invited people off the street to bring their washing into her kitchen so they would bring along their washing and they would wash their linens and their bedding and everything else and completely sanitize it using the hot water from her boiler and pretty soon this grew and kitty actually had to um sorry actually had to... Sorry. She had to actually... The load just finished there. Kitty actually had to expand into the cellar. And this became really Britain's first public wash house. And up to 85 families a week used to come to Kitty's cellar to wash their clothes. And then in 1842, Frederick Street Wash House was opened.

And this was the very first public wash house run by the council. And Kitty is credited with being the pioneer of this wash house movement. So she's a very important woman to us in Kitty's and also Liverpool as well. We do honour her actually. She has a marble statue in St George's Hall. She's the first woman to be depicted in marble in St George's Hall. Is she really? That's St George's Hall, which is the incredible building right in the centre of Liverpool, opposite the Empire and Lyme Street Station. That's right, yeah. It's a really beautiful statue.

And she also has a stained glass window in the Anglican Cathedral and we refer to her as the Saint of the Slums. So we really do celebrate this history of Kitty. Grace, in terms of the people who you want to come and use this space, you don't want anyone to feel stigmatised by using it. We wanted to ensure that we had really affordable, do-it-yourself, wash and dry, and we're also looking at ways that we could offer things for free for people that are really struggling.

We found in our research when we were developing the project that there is a lot of people experiencing hygiene poverty. How do you define that? The research that's been done relates it to food poverty. So when people are really struggling having to use things like food banks, often you're not going to be running your washing machine. You're not going to be buying washing powder. And so we really wanted to offer services that did cater to some of these really strong needs within our community. But at the same time, we offer premium services like eco-dry cleaning.

We offer service washes. And we also do small commercial contracts with other businesses. So we are really aiming at being a space for everyone. And what's really important as well is that everyone that works here is really from this area so we've got the most amazing team of staff who know everybody which is great because austerity is here in these communities in the most unimaginable ways and what is really important is that we're not looking for handouts we're actually looking for a fair way of doing things. Grace from perhaps my naive perspective just because the size of Anfield is so enormous and it is so dominant in this area why not just ask the club for a shed load of money?

What we're trying to build is something that's self-sustaining through generating our own income we recognize that in a climate of diminishing grant funding that you can sort of be constantly chasing the next pot of funding and that can often limit what you're able to do and so we really wanted to think about how we could maybe procure contracts with other businesses or other organisations instead of asking them for grant funding. And there is a really good local example of exactly this isn't there a place called Homebaked which now makes pies for Liverpool Football Club? Yeah absolutely I can't remember the number but it's a really large quantity of pies and they're sold in the executive or they're

given out in the executive box and that's a great contract for Homebaked that means that they can deliver to the community on the ground at a more affordable price and it's part of their kind of financial sustainability and so we'd like to look for things like that as well. And is it a talking point in this part of the city that you really have got people here having a tough time just keeping body and soul together and their kids occupied through the summer

and the skyline is dominated by a football team that pays its players hundreds of thousands of pounds a week i'm i'm a red i really enjoy football liverpool football club is a corporation and you have to accept that that is what it is it is a corporation what we're saying is that we are an organisation that's doing business in a different way. We have our team that are paid a good wage. We have good terms and conditions. We are a workers and community co-operative. So there's no boss.

We manage ourselves as a co-operative, which is really important. We make decisions collectively. So that is about saying there is a different way to do business in a more community, co-operative way. Such a brilliant idea, that. Kitty's Laundrette in Anfield in Liverpool, named after Kitty Wilkinson, the kind of woman we should all know about,

but of course you just don't know because they get lost, don't they? The Laundrette is open again on Thursday, by the way, of this week. Is the bonk buster dying a death? Has it just fallen out of favour because we're getting our literary smut from other places these days? With me is Lauren Milne Henderson, aka Sunday Times

best-selling bonk buster writer, Rebecca Chance. You are the woman who gave us Killer Queens, Bad Angels, Bad Brides. Any more you want to mention? Lots of bads, lots of bads, lots of killers. Oh, brilliant, lovely. Sarita Domingo is of bads, lots of bads, lots of killers. All right, all brilliant, lovely. Sarita Domingo is an editor at Mills & Boone and the author of erotic short stories and romance novels,

including The Nearness of You and Bittersweet. Welcome, Sarita. And also here, Maisie Lawrence, editor at Bookature, co-founder of Pride in Publishing. Good to see you, Maisie, too. Thank you. So you must have, like me, Lauren, explored bonk busters in your youth.

Oh my gosh Judith Krantz I learned so much from Judith Krantz. Some of it was rubbish but anyway. Well actually Judith Krantz was awfully good on the central point of a bonk buster which is that sex is not just there to have you lose your virginity and then marry a millionaire with and not go with anybody else. She was particularly good about that. And that's what makes the books bonk busters rather than romantic novels. And you did write them, but you've packed it in. Why? Because they just aren't as much in demand as they used to be. Well, this is obviously the huge question, isn't it? And I think that right now women are buying different stuff. They are buying

a great deal of depressing crime novels, or they are buying very, very happy novels involving cupcakes and chocolate and Cornwall and camper vans. There are a lot of those. And there's a whole camper van series now, I think. So it's the, you know, you go with the tide and you, you know, the tide is moving, moving away from them, I think. Now, you were pulling a face there at some of that, Maisie. So what was missing from women's lives that made them want bonk busters? And why have they rejected them now? Well, I think partly you've got to think about, like, what kind of time we're living in. And perhaps the bonk buster served a purpose, you know, five to ten years ago.

And I think about, when I think about the kind of literature that we're producing, I look at our political time. And our political time at the moment is quite scary and quite frightening. So, yeah, maybe we're interested in kind of domestic psychological thrillers where we can be in the house and everything can be scary. But let's not talk about what's going on outside. Or the antidote to that, as you said, is the kind of lighter stuff, which is like, let's go to the sea and open a cafe and enjoy our lives. It's a trend. I do agree that the domestic noir thing, I think, is very political.

And a smart friend of mine basically came up with the idea that women are still really angry about the patriarchy and they don't feel they're having an effect politically. So it becomes translated into the domestic sphere.

What we've got to acknowledge is that Bonk Busters were overwhelmingly heteronormative. I don't remember. Not mine. Not yours. OK, well, not the ones you wrote, perhaps, but the ones I readonormative. I don't remember. Not mine. Not yours. Okay. Well, not the ones you wrote, perhaps,

but the ones I read in my youth. Absolutely, they were. So, Sarita, they were also very, very white. And that was clearly an omission. Absolutely. I think that's true. And I think perhaps that's what is also something that people are looking to explore a different type of narrative

that doesn't necessarily only feature, as you say, white heterosexual stories. There are a lot of self-published authors now. There's a great author called Talia Hibbert, for example, who's a black British writer who self-publishes. I think she's actually got some traditional publishing going now, but who are writing sexy stories that do feature people outside of what you might have seen in a traditional bunkbuster. But I also think that there's a different landscape now.

I think bunkbusters were sort of an escapist story. They were glamorous. But I think people, women in particular, kind of take their sexual empowerment for granted maybe now that they expect that it will you know will be the case regardless so they don't necessarily need that sort of extra level of glamour and escapism. Fan fiction is a whole new world and it there is something for quite literally everybody out there, Maisie. For our older listeners who may not know about fan fiction, just describe it as a challenge. Fan fiction started in the 60s and allegedly it was first Kirk Spock fan fiction, so Star Trek.

So Kirk slash Spock, which is where you get the word slash from and slash fiction which is a lot of fan fiction but not it entirely means love stories between two men and of course the reason that you know your your fandom starts is because fans look at the series and they're like but I just really want those characters to get together and they're not getting together so you go away and you write your own very simply the reason we can't publish it is for copyright reasons. You know, I can't have Harry Potter, me in Kirk's box and getting together and then publish that. But someone's written that. That wouldn't be allowed. I am very sure they have. Go look it up. You'll have a great time.

If I just say clamorant to everybody, some people will know what that means. I know that's making Maisie feel a little queasy, but it's out there. Also out there in fan fiction, which we need to make clear is free. And it's I've heard it described as the biggest library of erotic fiction in the history of human civilization. Is that right, Maisie? I mean, I certainly hope so. But I'm going to turn to our Mills and Boone editor here and ask if there's more Mills and Boone. I mean, I think it's probably true that fan fiction can allow people to explore fantasies that maybe we wouldn't be able to publish but um while Mills and Boone isn't necessarily erotica I think there's

still a huge demand for it there's still a huge market for sexier books and a lot of them are still quite glamorous and probably in the vein of a block of a bonk buster um And there's a newer line called Dare, which is probably the sexiest line that Mills and Boone do. But yeah, I mean, in terms of what you might class as erotic fiction, I think fan fiction probably is the biggest pot you could find. Yes, I mean, there is stuff out there in fan fiction. I'm thinking of the many tentacled absurdly well-endowed space creatures oh there's so much of that nowadays i'm sounding like i know what i'm talking about which is worrying it's absolutely hilarious um there's an entire series i have a lot of friends who send me this kind of stuff and we put it up on my facebook page and there's an entire series with these

obviously larger than life in every respect purple guys of another race and they have horns and the horns get involved too there's also a lot of comic gay stuff as well like there's a guy called chuck tingle to a certain extent but also allows you to explore completely out there fantasies that you may not find in your traditional fun there is a guy called chuck tingingle who specialises in... Sorry, Chuck Tingle? It is not his real name. Good Lord.

It is his nom de gay plume. And he writes these wonderful books which are literally, like, taken by the dinosaur, the Republican dinosaur senator, which I don't think I'm actually making up. And he is absolutely legendary in his own world and also has a very funny Twitter feed, I think. So there's a great deal.

And that is, you know, purely for fun. It's also sexy, but there's a great deal of humour there. Yeah. Are there any limits to this at all, Maisie? Go on. Well, I think I just want to say, like, you know, if you are a woman or a man who's looked at kind of mainstream erotica that we find in Smiths

and thought, you know what, that's not for me. I think what's really beautiful about what's being self-published and what exists in fan fiction is that there is something for everyone and it is written by someone who appeals to you or is similar to you. So if you are a woman, I think this is a super interesting trend and you see it both in fan fiction and also if you look at the British Museum's recent exhibition on anime and manga, it's there as well. Women writing stories for women about gay male relationships

which by the way was something that straight women were not supposed to be interested in who knew but it turns out that men are interested in lesbians and that women are interested we've always we've always accepted that men are quotes interested in lesbians but why didn't we know about the truth i think we did i think we just couldn't talk about it, frankly. I mean, I have a lot of men on men sex scenes in my books. I have lesbian sex scenes. I really have all sorts. Never have I had any pushback from readers whatsoever, apart from specific requests, for instance, more men on men. And one of my tenderest love scenes ever is a footballer losing his virginity to a gorgeous concierge in a Russian oligarch's fur closet.

And people always say how very sweet and romantic it was. I don't know whether I can top that. Sarita, how far are Mills and Boone prepared to push things? Because Maisie's already indicated there's something for everybody. And the Internet is a place of no shame what about Mills and Boone? I think Mills and Boone are catering to a very specific audience who are looking for a specific source of romance and while there is a really wide range of different types of romance you know you've got medical romance historical romance all sorts of different types in terms of genre. I think perhaps it is largely heterosexual relationships.

There's Carina, which is based out of the States, but it has a wide range of different types of stories, LGBTQ stories. But yeah, I think it's something that perhaps the readership would be open to, but it's not something that we're currently doing in our main lines. Have you ever, we've got about 30 seconds, by the way, Maisie, have you ever been genuinely shocked by something you've read in fan fiction? Well, I think what's beautiful about fan fiction and a bit like Mills and Boone, there's a little set of codes at the top and it'll tell you what you're going to get. And if there's something there that you know you're not going to be keen on it's signposted and I really appreciate

that as a reader I know what I want and I know what I don't yeah tell me about um when you were younger Maisie where did you find the stuff that you wanted to read as a young woman so that's a really good question um I think for me even growing up in the 90s and early 2000s there were not books that were in my local library or anywhere that I could buy them that featured LGBT characters and I have this very distinct memory of an American friend coming over and giving me this little bracelet which said we read banned books and it was banned books from schools in the US and I saw this one called Annie on my mind on there and it featured two girls looking kind of longingly at each other.

And I thought, ooh, well, maybe that might be the droid I'm looking for. Before this, what had you been reading? I'd been reading Judy Blume, which is lovely, but there are no women having sex with women. So I find this book and I had to order it off Amazon and I was not out to my family at this point. So I had to kind of like do it kind of, you know, quietly. And I get this book and it was enjoyable,

but it was written in the 80s. And this is probably, I read this in 2008. Listen, I had a great time in the 80s. Don't say the 80s like that. We all just took a sharp breath. It's terrible, isn't it? It's a happening young lady, let me tell you. But that's 20 years previously.

And, you know, what I'm saying is I wasn't finding those books in the UK. They just weren't here. They do seem to be now. And, you know, that's something we can talk about. But they were not when I was growing up. So you didn't find what you wanted. And Sarita, you also presumably couldn't find the stuff that was for you either. No, I honestly couldn't think of a book that I read as a teenager

or even in my early 20s that really felt representative of myself, my background as a black British woman. And still to this day, I think it does feel like the States are way ahead of us in terms of thinking about writing just your run-of-the-mill ordinary sort of romantic stories or even erotic fiction that feature people of colour in any respect. It's hard to think of UK authors or publishers that are really doing that kind of representation still to this day, even though, you know, diversity is sort of a watchword in publishing at the moment.

And when you started writing, did you consciously put in characters, women of colour, for example, in the stuff you were coming up with? I did. Well, when I first started writing, it was when I was commissioned to write erotic fiction, actually. And while those books were aimed at women aged 18 to 35, it was sort of a conscious effort for me to think,

well, who would want to read these books? Am I supposed to write white characters in these stories? And I think that's a pressure that some non-white authors do still feel, that their books won't sell if they feature characters that aren't white. Did anyone ever say anything like that? Sorry to interrupt, but anything to you, Lauren? Far from it.

I mean, I've always had mixed race sex very happily in my books, let me say. And I could have it in real life. It's none of our business. The first time I did it, as it were, I was doing my first gay sex scenes and I wanted one of the guys to be white and one of the guys to be black and uh there wasn't a remote peep out of anybody that this would be a bad idea there wasn't a single bit of pushback on it and actually um most of the people writing in actually wanted more uh black guys in the books so that's always been for me a really cheerful experience and it was always something when I started Bonkbusters that I was really aware of as how white they had always been and I was not going to do that. Where you said

people wanted more black guys in the books I mean we've talked earlier on in the podcast today about racism that is still it's still happening and there are still people who are victims of this moronic and ignorant behavior so what do you think is going on exactly? I'll tell you. I mean, I'm not going to mention whoever said this to me, but people, white people who I know to be casually racist, white women I know to be casually racist, have read my books and said, oh, I really love that scene. I'd really like to see more black people. So it's entirely exactly.

And I have, you know, I then tried to go, hey, well, that's nice. But, you know, if you know i then tried to go hey well that's nice but you know if you met this person in real life talking like that would not be great so i'd really tried to use it in my way as a kind of learning moment but it is very much it i mean looks if you go back to american slavery and the whole you know i don't want to say black but but you know the whole you know eroticizing of the the black male in America is um I mean I think that's true I think particularly if if you take into consideration a white woman with a black male and having sex there is that element there's also an element if you reverse the situation but um I think in terms of finding books that are representative um that feel like they are truly representative of an experience that maybe I would have had as a black British woman, it's still difficult to find.

And I think it's because you don't want that kind of fetishisation, not that, of course, your books would necessarily be doing that. That's why I chose to make them gay. This has only just occurred to me now. And that's absolutely why I chose to make them gay because then there wouldn't be, hopefully, so much of a sense, or at least with the gender aspect to it. I think this is really both somewhat troubling and incredibly interesting. I just wish we had more time. Just really briefly, I want to acknowledge that

science fiction is leading the way here and Maisie, you have blown my mind, what's left of my mind, by telling me there are stories now out there about romance, very intense romantic interludes, more than that, between artificial intelligence and members of the human race. Yeah, so Becky Chambers really blew my mind, to be honest, with her sensitivity in her series about, in the first book, The Long Way to a Small Empty Planet, which I've totally just messed up the title on, but it's something like that. I'm sure people can find it. And you have the AI system of the ship

and then you have someone in love with that system because that system is so developed and is so kind of sensitive and interesting and is part of this person's daily life that they have a loving relationship. And then what do you do if you don't have a body? Well, that's one for another day. Thank you. I've so enjoyed talking to all three of you.

It's been fantastic. Thank you, Lauren. Thank you, Maisie. And thank you, Sarita. Really good to have you on the podcast and on the programme. And Jenny is here tomorrow. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have

to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.