Woman's Hour - Tall women and dating, Vicky Featherstone on Maryland, Blackfishing, Equality in housework, Keisha the Sket

Episode Date: October 15, 2021

The average height of a female in the UK is 5ft 3in. What is life like for women at the other end of the spectrum, especially when it comes to dating? Jessica Creighton is joined by the author of Get Real, Sarah Ivens, who at 6ft would be introduced to dates as 'Queen Kong' or 'Miss Stretchy', and married at 6 ft 3 in in a pair of diamanté heels; and Andrea Hubert, 6ft 1in whose creative comebacks about her height paved the way to her becoming a comedian.Normally it would take a playwright like Lucy Kirkwood two years to write a play and get it onto the stage. However the relentless news of violence against women and the abuse of police powers in recent weeks compelled her to script a thirty minute piece called Maryland in just a few days and send it to the Royal Court Theatre in London. That was three weeks ago...two weeks ago it opened on stage. The Royal Court’s Artistic Director, Vicky Featherstone joins Jessica Creighton to explain why.After struggling with her mental health whilst part of girl-band Little Mix and then quitting late last year, Jesy Nelson has just launched her solo career with a video for her single 'Boyz' that's been criticised for 'blackfishing'. So what is that and why is it problematic? Jess is joined by Leah Mahon, journalist at the Voice online.The Woman’s Hour poll to mark our 75th anniversary found the place where women feel most unequal is in the home - specifically in terms of housework. 75% of the women said the division of chores wasn’t fair but interestingly it was only named as the fifth most important area in which to achieve equality. Jessica talks to Professor Ann Oakley whose seminal book The Sociology of Housework looked at these issues way back in the seventies and also by Professor Rosie Cox who has written a number of books on gender roles.In 2005 the story of Keisha the Sket started being shared by young people on a now defunct early internet platform. The story is told in energetic street slang. Keisha, 17, lives in Hackney, London. She's lively and funny - she is also preyed upon. She wants and enjoys sex and is looking for love but she is sexualised by the men and boys around her. Her lack of control of her life gets her into dangerous situations and the word 'sket' - promiscuous girl or woman - follows her around. It's been called a classic of Black British culture and is now being published for the first time in book form. Jade LB began writing Keisha's story when she was only 13 and joins Jessica to talk about her creation and the mixed feelings she has had about it over the years.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Lots coming up on the programme today, including what's it like for tall women when it comes to dating? Well, two women will share their experiences with us. One of who was referred to as Queen Kong when introduced to potential partners. I kid you not. Also, we'll have a live reading of a black British classic. Keisha the Skit was written back in 2005 by then 13-year-old author Jade LB. Some of you might remember the story of teenager Keisha,

who was judged for being promiscuous. Well, it's been published for the first time this week in book form. And Jade, I'm excited to say, will join us live in the studio. Also, former Little Mix Pop star Jessie Nelson has been accused of something called blackfishing in her new music video. This is when people who aren't black present themselves as black or racially ambiguous to appear on trend. The likes of Kim Kardashian and artist Rita Ora have all been accused of this in the past. And I think lots to unpack in that discussion with a journalist who has written on the topic. And I have a very important question for you this morning, listeners. What are your views on who does the housework in your homes?

Who's cleaning the toilet, for example? Who does more of the laundry? And do you care who does what? Well, our equality poll showed that 75% of women don't feel chores are divided equally between them and their male partner. We'll hear from two experts to unpick those results. And I've actually wondered how results might be impacted there in same-sex couples. Get in touch with us. Let us know about the housework in your home. You can text us on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate do remember to check with your network provider for exact costs though and on social media as always it's at bbc woman's hour or you can email us through our website

and now first this morning normally it would take a playwright like Lucy Kirkwood two years to write a play and get it onto the stage. However, the relentless news of violence against women and abuse of police powers in recent weeks compelled her to write a script, a 30 minute play called Maryland in just a few days and send it to the Royal Court Theatre in London. Now, that was three weeks ago. Two weeks ago, it opened on stage. The Royal Court's Artistic Director, Vicky Thurstone, joins me now. A very good morning to you, Vicky. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. Now, you worked alongside the writer here, Lucy Kirkwood, in directing this play.

Just give us a sense of what it's about. Yes, thank you, Jessica. Yes, I co-directed it with Millie Bartier and Lucy Morrison, who are two of our associates here at the Royal Court. The play is a response to Lucy's feelings about the violence over years and years and years against women and the normalising of that. She's very clear that the play isn't about the terrible things

that happen to women. None of those are listed. They're alluded to, but it's not a kind of deep, sort of dark, intense interrogation of that. What it is is an angry about us normalising those events and how we live in isolation to normalise those events. And this is a kind of howl of us coming together to be angry. She wants us to be more angry and is allowing us to be more angry.

Sounds evocative. It sounds powerful. Let's just hear a clip from the play, shall we? Please state from one to five if you agree or disagree with the following statements. With one being disagree strongly and five being agree strongly. One, my environment is important to me. Two, adequate parking is available on my street. Three, locally there is an active and visible local neighbourhood watch presence locally. Four, I feel generally safe in my normal daily life and never wonder why I'm so obsessed

with podcasts about serial killers. Five, in my postcode there is a regular and satisfactory collection of household refuse, there is a regular and satisfactory collection of household refuse, recycling, green waste and male rage. Right. Okay. Intriguing. Now, this play has been turned around in a very short time, hasn't it, Vicky? From Lucy Kirkwood sending it to you to audiences watching it.

How common is that? It's not common, but the Royal Court exists to be the platform for the writers. And the fact that Lucy, who, as she says, has been percolating this play for years, in the week leading up to Wayne Cousins' trial, she just wrote the rest of this play and sent it to us. It's testament to everyone at the Royal Court that we were able to turn it around. And we sort of made the decision on the Saturday that she sent it to us. It's testament to everyone at the Royal Court that we were able to turn it around and we sort of made the decision on the on sort of Saturday that she sent it to us last Friday and it was open on the Thursday. One of the things about it though is it's a kind of

rehearsed reading people have got the scripts in their hand and we've set it up with a rolling cast. The important thing about the play it's about the sort of intersection of all women that experience this and everyone who identifies as a woman. So we have a different cast every two days so that we've been working with 25 women so far over the week and a half. Yeah, so we just brought it together very quickly. It's an important subject. Yeah, it really is. And I'll come on to the specifics of who's actually acting within this play, because I think that's very interesting. It's something quite uncommon when it comes to theatre. But I suppose this play highlights the role that theatre can have in terms of activism. Yes, it's a big question that I mean, I really

believe that, you know, theatre has the power to challenge and transform our thoughts. You know, empathy is a huge part of that. And one of the things that this play is doing is uniting us in our anger. And we sit in that audience and we sort of bear witness together to something. And like I say, you know, Lucy is really interested in the fact that why aren't we actually all more angry about this? Why have we accepted this for so many years? Why have we just gone along going, this is our lot as women in the world? And I think what's very interesting about this play is that Lucy has also opened it up for anyone to be able to use. That's really uncommon in theatre. You know, normally people have to license a play and it takes ages to put it on. And we've just put the play up online for people to use and we've had an extraordinary response from schools,

from youth theatres, from theatres around the country who will put on their own version of this very quickly, I hope. Whilst this play does call out violence against women and you mentioned the anger at the fact that this happens so often and is such a common thing for women to experience, how much is it also about just providing a space for women to speak about a subject that they've had on their shoulders for so long and perhaps haven't had a safe space to talk about openly? I think that's absolutely

right. I think that's such a brilliant point, Jessica, because it's about being heard, isn't it? And also, I think one of the brilliant things that art can do and the artists can do is that they live in the same world as us, but they can find a way to help us understand what it is that we're feeling. And that's what definitely what this play is doing. I mean, we've had such an amazing response from people saying, thank you. I don't I no longer feel so isolated. I feel heard. And I've been able to kind of start a conversation, have a conversation about which you know is something that is very very rare we all sort of move on so quickly and we all have to hold these feelings of fear very deep repress them deep inside and this play offers a

kind of catharsis there's a chorus of women and as they get to the end of the play they kind of rise up and their voices become more and more chor and more and more angry. And the sort of idea of that is that by them expressing this repressed anger, we can let go of it as well. And it's so important to be able to feel that. You've mentioned the powerful responses. I was wondering whether the responses have been different between men and women that watch this play. I'm sure they have. But what's very interesting about it is that more women have spoken to me about it after the play the men who've come to see it have been very aware of the space they take up in the world i think a lot of people have been a lot of the men have been quite shocked by it the women of course aren't shocked by it um we live it every day um and um and and but have felt

have kind of really been seen and have really felt that they're being reached out to in some way. You mentioned the rolling nature of the cast within the play and there are specific lines in the play that are to be read only by women of colour. Why have you done that? Well, Lucy was very aware that as a white woman writing, I mean, it's complicated, but as a white woman writing this play,

really aware as well of the conversations around, you know, how fast Sarah Everard's story got into the media and the kind of massive impact around that. But this play is really in response to Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman's deaths as well, and also Sabine and Essa. And Lucy just really wanted that everybody felt that they were represented in some way in the play, even though she was unable to write the story of all of those different identities, different backgrounds, different experiences. So she's writing it from her lived experience, but doesn't want to exclude

anybody. Okay, so you've taken into consideration their intersectionality which is is brilliant I think and you you've described Maryland as a call to action do you feel as though it could lead to meaningful change tangible change? What I think is interesting is that you know we we struggle on in theatre and as we have done over the last two years but believing that what we make is important and what's interesting is that putting this play on has had an extraordinary response from the media the conversations that we've been having there's been so much interest in it like I say it's you know over 50 different individuals and groups have been in contact with us over the last two days about putting this play on in some way so it is doing something

there is a kind of beacon of anger firing up around the country that it is having an effect on. And even if it means that, you know, a lot of teachers have been in contact with us and saying they want to do it with their 16 and 17 year olds. I mean, that's an incredible thing that Lucy has written something that a teacher with a class of 16, 17 year olds can start to unpack some of these ideas in a way which isn't about fear and which isn't about kind of newspaper statistics, it's a way about feeling and there's a lot of humour in the play. Lucy was very clear that this isn't a play about seeing the violence in front of us, it's a play that has to be dynamic

and there is humour in it, it's ridiculous in places. It is, I've read the script and it's dramatic and quite unsettling in places but actually it sounds as though it's also quite empowering for people. Well, I think it's I think I hope so. I hope it's when we talk to the cast to join us every two days. One of the things we sort of say about it, it should feel like this is an act of protest. It's like going on a march or being at a vigil. It's not an act of having to sit inside an individual pain. So it's something which is kind of collective action, if you like, something which rouses us up and makes us feel that we're not alone. And that maybe if we're angry enough together, we can do something about it. OK, Vicky Theverson, thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Hour.

That production of Maryland has been extended as well. So that's available to watch right now at the Royal Court Theatre. Good to speak to you, Vicky. Thank you. Thank you, Jessica. Now, after struggling with her mental health whilst part of girl band Little Mix and then quitting late last year, Jessie Nelson has just launched her solo career with a much criticised video called Boys. Now, the critics complain of what they call blackfishing. So what is that and why

is it problematic? I'm joined now by Leah Mahon, who's a journalist at The Voice Online. Very good morning to you, Leah. I'm really looking forward to trying to unpack this topic. Firstly, can you just describe to us, to the audience who aren't aware, what exactly is blackfishing? Good morning, thank you for having me. Sure, so blackfishing is essentially a term used for a non-white person that is attempting to sort of emulate black or mixed race people via appearance. So whether that be makeup, through hair, skin tone, that pretty much summarises what it is. How does that differ from, for example, cultural appropriation, which some people might be more familiar with? What I would say with that, I think cultural appropriation tends to lean upon the lines of, I guess you could say, I think it's a case of understanding.

I think that's where it kind of leans. I think it often falls into the same bracket, really. But I think the conversation tends to become difficult when the person that is often accused of blackfishing or a cultural appropriation often displays a lack of understanding or respect for the culture. In my opinion, I think it blends in quite similar. But I think with blackfishing in particular,

it's when your whole appearance tends to change. That's when I tend to find a lot of the conversation becomes quite heightened. Cultural appropriation, we saw it with Adele. I mean, I think, you know, it caused a stir online where she had banned two knots at a Notting Hill carnival. Yes, I remember. Yes. And then we have Jessie Nelson here. And I think it's the extent to which she is probably appearing as a black woman is what has caused a lot of rumbling. Because we've seen it before with multiple celebrities. But I think when they go through the skin, the hair, the attitude and sort of mannerisms, I think that's when it becomes a problem.

But in my opinion, I think it all pretty much falls under the same bracket. It's just a case of the extent it kind of goes to. OK, so U.S. rapper Nicki Minaj, who features on the single, has defended Jessie Nelson. same bracket it's just a case of the extent it kind of goes to okay so us rapper nikki minaj who features on the single has defended jesse nelson so where do you stand on the line between blackfishing so-called blackfishing and simply saying i want to celebrate the culture that i am so appreciative of for me personally I said, I think it really is about showing an appreciation and respect. I think for Jessie, I think she probably has had this much backlash because I don't, from what I know and from what the conversation has been like online,

I don't think she's really showed much sort of support for the black community. I don't think she's spoken out sort of about black issues before. We had Leanne with her documentary not too long ago, featured on BBC3, where she spoke about her experiences as the only black woman in the group, the only mixed race woman in the group. And, you know, a lot of her bandmates were behind her,

but I don't think Jessie was a big part of that. And I think that's kind of where the line is drawn, I think, is a case of showing that appreciation. You know, like I mentioned Adele, I think she was quickly forgiven by the community for what she did. A lot of people came to her defence. I think even David Lammy, the MP, came to her defence. And I think there's almost a kind of an exception in the way

to say that, you know, Adele has shown that support and likeness for the black community. Well, that's what I wondered, Leah. Who makes the rules? Who says, OK, Adele can do it, but Jessie Nelson can't? Exactly, exactly. Like I said, I think it's a case where maybe we as a community need to question where we fall in this as well.

We probably need to question, you know, as you can see, just from Nicki Minaj, we all don't agree on things. We all don't agree on it. And I think it's a case of sort of looking at ourselves and everybody's got a different take on things. But again, I think a lot of it tends to fall in, are you vocal? Are you supporting Black people beyond their appearance, beyond their culture? Are you loving us when it's not just cool to be us? I think that's where the line is drawn. I think a lot of, if I was to generalise, I think a lot of black people have that opinion.

You know, it can be forgiven, I guess, if you show that support for the community beyond it all is superficial. Yeah, so, for example, people that would speak out about black rights, civil rights and things of that nature, because as you rightly say, Leah, this isn't new. We've seen multiple artists do this in the past. I wonder, though, are women held to a different standard? For example, in terms of male music artists, Justin Bieber, Vanilla Ice back in the day, I'm showing my age, Eminem, Justin Timberlake have all been criticized of blackfishing slash cultural appropriation uh before but it never seems to be

as much criticism as if they were a female artist um 100 100 i've noticed that myself and in my opinion i think it just kind of leads so says a lot about the society we live in and the pressures on women for a standard of beauty like women are judged 10 times harder for how they look they're judged ten times harder for how they look. They're judged ten times harder for how they carry themselves, how much skin they expose. And I think that also feeds into it as black women. We're both dealing with those intersections.

And I think that's a huge part of it. Like I said, I think when blackfishing culture appropriation tends to take place, we have white women trying to essentially emulate black women in all forms through skin through hair and if you look at the history of black hair it's a very sensitive topic um you know we have the tiguan laws in the 18th century where black women were sort of told to cover their heads in scarves as a form of oppression to cover their hair and it ended up becoming something that became quite enchanted and regal because they took it and spun it up for their own,

and it became something beautiful. And that's something that we still wear today. So, you know, as much as we try to say that maybe our experiences are Black people are all the same, they're not, because I think Black women in particular have a lot more sort of history and there's more onus on their looks. And I think that tends to fall into it i think we have to also look at examine how women in general in society are sort

of deemed but we also have women from our own community speaking up about this more i think that's a really important point to make that we're the ones also talking about this um when you know for example justin bieber when he wore his hair in dreadlocks, I didn't see, it was black women that were talking about that. And this time around, it's black women talking about this. And I think that also steers the conversation somewhere else and something

we need to think about as well. And it's not just a case, is it, of these artists appearing black and appearing trendy because actually there's financial benefit, there's financial gain from them doing this. 100%. You know, black culture is probably a huge moneymaker. We see it in every way, shape and form. We see it in terms of language that people use.

We see it in terms of dress. We see it in terms of what's trending from edges to wigs to all these different elements of black culture that we see that nobody really understands where it comes from. So there's also a huge money element to it. I think that's also what sort of riles people up to be like, OK, you're you're using the culture really for your own benefit. And yet you have nothing to say in support of the black community. Black Lives Matter, whatever sort of rights or social injustices that black people face in the UK, you know, people like probably arguably like Jessie have been quiet about it. And I think that also lends to, you know, it's cool to sort of look like us, but not to be us. I think that also falls into it. I think it really just comes down to respect and appreciation.

Yes, yes, agreed. Leah, thank you so much. I should state that Jessie Nelson has said she never wanted to cause offence after being accused of blackfishing in what is her debut music video. And of course, you'll remember that Jessie Nelson has been quite outspoken about the mental health troubles she has faced whilst being in the public eye and being a pop star. And I think we should be mindful of, you know, how much criticism is aimed her way in this discussion. But Leah Mahon of The Voice Online, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Okay, some lots of great discussions so far on Woman's Hour this morning. On Thursday, Emma Barnett had musician Sophie Elex-Bexter in the studio and asked her about her now famous lockdown kitchen discos and how they started. You know, the kitchen disco just came out of nowhere, obviously tied into a very unexpected turn of events globally, but became such a tonic in our household. So our kitchen already looks like that. We already had the sequin bunting, big disco ball, smoke machine, disco lights, turntable.

So turning to music is natural for us. My kitchen really needs an upgrade here from what we just hear at God. You can do these things very simply and they're very affordable, I promise you. So when I think everything was getting a bit tough and we first went into the lockdown, Richard suggesting, my husband suggesting, we should do a live stream, just felt like, well, I haven't really got any other plans.

All the work had gone out the diary. We were stuck at home. It was very stressful, very tense. Obviously, day to day moments, quite nice. Thank you. And I like if I had to go into lockdown, those are the people I'd be choosing to go into lockdown with. But, you know, the hum of adrenaline and anxiety from the news, music was an easy place to turn and doing the gig just felt like, well, why not really? But I did think people were going to make fun of me. I felt kind of ridiculous. I put on my sequined catsuit, belted through a sort of half-hour set,

tried not to stand on my crawling 14-month-old child, tried to stop my then, I think, three-year-old from pulling out the wires of all this music stuff. But afterwards, we felt really good, Richard and I. It was like an immediate lift in our heads. So we just thought, right, that's what we'll do. We'll do them every Friday. And it became the perfect distraction and a really,

really special community that came out of it. I've kind of got a lot of affection for everyone that came over for those discos. And I think also, I know you're passionate about this, you know, raising boys who can dance and, you know, move like no one's watching at all ages. Yep. Yep. And we work a lot on hip action, action you know because that's the bit that guys sometimes leave out so I've got a lot of like very like wiggly little small people which I'm very proud of and yeah I think I want

more to leave home being able to dance and be able to cook. Absolutely brilliant you can't help but smile listening to that that's Sophie Alex Beter there talking to Emma earlier this week. And you can catch up with the rest of that interview on BBC Sounds. Now, the Woman's Hour poll to mark our 75th anniversary found the place where women feel most unequal is in the home, specifically in terms of housework. 75% of the women in our poll said the division of chores wasn't fair. But interestingly, it was only named as the fifth most important area in which to achieve equality.

To talk about the findings, I'm joined now by Professor Anne Oakley, who began looking at these issues in the 70s with her seminal book, The Sociology of Housework, and also by Professor Rosie Cox, who has written a number of books on gender and housework. On Twitter, she describes herself as a middle-aged academic who is obsessed with housework and wants to change the world. I am in agreement with you there, Rosie. Very good morning to you both. I'll start with you, actually, Rosie. Did the results of our poll surprise you? The first finding that you quoted, that this is the area where women face the greatest inequality, that didn't surprise me. But the extent to which this was seen as a priority for gaining more equality, that it wasn't a priority for most

women, that did actually surprise me, that I was quite surprised that more women didn't want to change the world in terms of housework. OK. And what about you, Anne? Did any of this surprise you or is this what you expected to see? It's pretty much what I expected, actually, because I'm afraid that despite all the research that's been done since I did the sociology of housework back in the 70s, what that research shows is that there has been relatively little change in the gendering of housework. I think the discrepancy between these findings that 75% of women feel unequal in the home, but a much lower proportion think that this is a priority for change. I think that simply reflects the low valuation of housework and the gendering of roles in the home.

I think that this is what is being picked up there. Okay, we've had quite a few people get in touch with us about this. And I think it's safe to say not everyone feels that roles are gendered like that within the home. And when it comes to housework, someone has texted in to say, my husband and I have been married for almost 32 years. We had always done most of, he had almost done most of the housework and cooking whereas I've done the gardening DIY and looked after the cars it works for us so not everyone feels as though women should be doing the majority of specific chores like housework but I do wonder if women know it's unequal, feel it's unequal, why is it not a priority, Anne, to change that? Well, it is a priority to change that,

but it's never been in this country a government priority to change that. The lack of policy investment in the whole area of equality in the home is actually quite know quite shocking because when you look at the research evidence there are some factors that are associated with much higher equality in the home one of them is investment in public child care another one is a real equality of pay and benefits in the employment sector, a low incidence of part-time work for women. The research on Housework Hour shows that women who work part-time do actually the same amount of housework as women who don't work outside the home at all. So part-time work is

really not a solution. Okay, well someone has emailed in, this could be a solution. They say, I am baffled why your family thinks it's down to the woman to clean the home. Each week, I used to get so frustrated. My family thought it okay for me to clean up after them. So I employed a cleaner, they say, in exclamation marks, who comes in once a week for two hours, which my family agreed to help pay for. I feel so empowered as the cleaner is me. I get paid from my family and an added bonus. They actually clean the sink and toilet before she comes. But again, Rosie, I mean, women feel this is unequal, but it was only the fifth most important area in which to achieve equality. Why is it not higher up the list i think that it's i think that people find it easier to see battles which can be fought in the public sphere perhaps collectively um as easier to take up and also um things like violence against

women it's really easy to see why somebody might say that's a bigger priority. Economic inequality in the workplace, the profound, pervasive violence against women that we've already been hearing about today. It's easy to see why you would say, oh, what's more important? Who does the washing up or whether women are safe walking the streets? Tick, whether women are safe walking the streets so if we compare those things against each other the doing the housework can maybe look petty because generally we think about housework as being mundane petty unimportant that's all part of the problem with it and it's also something which we tend to think of as happening within our own relationships and our own households

and don't often think about as being part of a collective position in society and Anne is completely right to make these links between women doing the housework and what they get paid women doing the housework and their position more broadly in society the politics of it all that kind of thing so it's about actually saying well this might happen to you as an individual behind closed doors, but it's not an individual thing. It's actually part of social structures and linked to things like opportunities at work, opportunities in politics, policy, all those kinds of things. And there's a statement from many women who often report hearing that their male partner doesn't see the dirt or the need for any kind of tidying whatsoever um or they're simply not bothered by it is that something that you found in your research well my research was done a long time ago but yes i did and i i think you still find that and i would be interested if you've

done the poll and included men i think you would have found a lot of men saying things are equal in the home, whereas the women, their female partners said they're not equal. You get this contradiction between what the men say and what the women say, which reflects their different valuation orientation to housework, if you like. And how does this change, Rosie, when we're talking about same-sex couples? Because this seems very heteronormative, these results. Yeah, and obviously the poll was particularly looking at that. I haven't specifically studied what goes on between same-sex couples as a particular category.

But I think that we get lots of different lots of variations some some same-sex couples kind of divide themselves into kind of normative heterosexual ideals where one person takes on more of the stereotypically masculine tasks and one person takes on more of the stereotypically feminine tasks but actually I think there's much more variation between same-sex couples. There's also a big difference between same-sex couples. There's also a big difference between same-sex male couples and female couples in terms of things like their economic status, that because men tend to be better paid, gay men tend to be better paid than lesbian women. And that has an effect on how people organise things at home, for example, whether they might

employ a cleaner or somebody else to do that work. So there are lots of different things that come into play. And it's really worth thinking about what happens when we take away that heteronormative organisation. Yeah, we've had an interesting text come in, actually, from someone who says, I'm in a lesbian relationship, equal roles in the housework stakes. We both make mess, both use the toilet, so we both clean up. Other tasks tend to be done by whomever prefers or is better at the task. We have an eight-year-old son who we also include in household tasks. So as a grown man, he won't expect a female partner to do the lion's share. So I suppose that there speaks of, as you were saying, how perhaps heteronormative this poll has been.

And I wonder how difficult it is as well trying to change behaviour, Anne, when it's behind closed doors. It's much easier to do it in public, isn't it, when everyone's watching? Exactly. I think this is a huge part of the problem. Housework is something that, by definition, is done in houses. It's done away from the public gaze. And the arguments that people have about housework also happen inside the home. So they are not part of the public discourse

about gender equality and about individual behaviour. And that is something which is completely continuous with the work that I did in the 70s. The isolation of the whole debate about housework and the isolation of housework itself in the home is a factor which really counts against change. Would you agree with that, Rosie? Yeah, I would agree with that entirely. And also the difficulty of negotiating something so kind of important within a close, intimate relationship. You know, that we tend to love the people that we're living with and arguing with about these things. And in some ways,

the stakes can be very high. And so actually giving in perhaps you know carrying on with that unequal um distribution of housework is maybe the only solution for somebody in an individual circumstance because of exactly what ann says that this is individuated this is put on to individual women within the private home rather than being for example a policy debate i mean for example in nordic countries this isn't like the kind of there are public discussions of the way that housework should be more equal as well as policy about it but that's just not something that really happens in britain i wonder and is that is that what we need then is it a change in policy that would perhaps shift the balance here? Yes, very much so. Taking up on Rose's last point,

when I worked in Sweden some years ago for a few months in a university, I was struck by the fact that no meetings could be held after four o'clock in the afternoon in case there was somebody in the department who had to fetch a child from daycare. That was the rule. So the employment situation was organised around the domestic situation. And that was a policy commitment by the government. We don't have

anything like that here. And I think that that is a huge part of the problem. Okay. Thank you for such brilliant insight, Professor Anne Oakley and Professor Rosie Cox. Great to have you on Woman's Hour this morning. Thanks very much. Thank you. Now, our next guest has been described as a literary foremother. That's because back in 2005, when she was just 13 years old, she wrote a story that would become a black British classic.

The story is called Keisha the Sket and it's written by Jade LB, who joins me in the studio, I'm very excited to say. As Jade will tell us in more detail in the coming minutes, the story centres on a sexually expressive teenager called Keisha who lives in Hackney, East London. Keisha the Skit has been published in book form this week for the very first time. Very good morning to you, Jade.

Are you well? Morning. I'm well, thank you. And thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. Good to see you. Now, before you tell us more, you're going to do a live reading for us so we can get a flavour of Keisha the Skit. Take it away. I quickly looked in the mirror just to check myself.

How the hell can I go to see that painting looking like this? So I opened my wardrobe it was a sunny day so I took out some short white rah-rah skirt and a pink vest top I got out my brand new converses they were white and folded down on the inside they had pink swirls I completed my outfit with a pink Nike wristband and my white rosary beads i looked in the mirror and thought to myself oh rass then i ran downstairs and told my mum i would be going to shanice's yard and we'll be back at around 11. big smile on my face you've literally taken me back to my teenage years early 2000s or i remember coming across this story uh for the first. So for those that aren't aware,

who is Keisha and what exactly is a sket? Just give us an overview of the story. Okay. So I'll start with sket. A sket, it's short for a Jamaican slang word, which is sketel. And it is, yeah, it's a promiscuous girl or woman. And Keisha, Keisha the sket,

was popularly coined Keisha the skit so I didn't call the story Keisha the skit so it wasn't originally named that no it wasn't it was popularly coined that so it's sort of as the years went on um that's what yeah that was what it was called um which is really reflective of how people viewed Keisha which was someone with a lot of agency um and who was taking the choice to be promiscuous. But the story covers her love life. I think looking back now as an adult, I would say that the story is about love. It's about coming of age. It is about somebody who sort of built a lot of bravado within their victimhood, actually. But yeah. Wow. There's some really kind of deep rooted issues there

that we are going to discuss in the next few minutes. But you originally wrote this in 2005. As I said, you were just 13 years old at the time and you were writing about some pretty heavy subjects, you know, sex, sexual violence, gender, horniness, you know, quite graphic detail sometimes. How did you know about these things and how did you know how to express them in written form um so I um used to frequent the library so from about 12 years old and there was a little economy going on in my year group with um

these black fiction books that we got from the black sections of our libraries so we lived in different respective boroughs went to our local libraries and we all sort of pounced on the black fiction section and we would swap and exchange books and they all came from these imprints um over in america one was called urban books and one was called triple crown publications and they all detailed the lives of like inner city black people who were like having sex and they were they were clearly you know from marginalized communities working class all of that um so I was very much inspired by those stories and it was almost it gave me license to express in a more raw way um but in school throughout my years at school, I loved English. I loved writing. So it felt a

little bit natural to write a story and express the things I was being inspired by at the time in written form. And at that early age, did you feel there was a clear definition between the way you related to white authors and the way you related to black authors um so that's very interesting because I spent a lot of my childhood reading the chronicles of Narnia Harry Potter and Jacqueline Wilson I loved Jacqueline Wilson um and I felt definitely like socioeconomic issues she touched on a lot of socioeconomic issues in her stories and I could relate a lot to like single single mother you know themes of being a single mother and things like that. But they were all white girls.

And they're also they weren't really geographically placed either. My experience was really in a city. It was very black. It was very working class. And so even though there was a gap in terms of geographical location with some of the urban American novels, I could see myself in all of the other areas. So there was the racial element and there was the class element too. So yeah, love Jacqueline Wilson. Absolutely love Jacqueline Wilson.

But I felt like I saw myself even more in these news stories. Yeah. I feel like being a teenager in the early 2000s as I was um it felt like being labeled a slut or a skit were like the worst possible terms that could be aimed at you as a young girl whereas boys well they were free to express themselves sexually if they so wished and then when you add in the racial element to that being black it could it was very tough it was very tough not to be to be labeled as something you felt that you weren't and have that hanging over you constantly um at such a young young age so tell me about your experiences with misogynoir

like your experience of how you understand misogynoir and how that might have affected Keisha in her story. So I really agree with you. I think that it was almost a label that you ran away from. So you were like, very stifled in like, you know, the way that you may have wanted to sexually express yourself and with who as well. So that's really interesting. I think initially when I was writing about Keisha, I wasn't conscious of those things just yet. And I was talking about I think I was feeling like when I was older, I would love to be desired in the way that Keisha was. And so I wrote this character who was so I felt at the time in tune with herself and so desirable and so attractive and things like that. But when I think of the misogynoir, I think initially I was making sure I wanted to ensure that I wasn't ever caught up in the like tangle of the label skit or slut first. And then I started to try and cultivate a self-image for myself that completely took me away from that potential label for a very long time. So yeah, I have a very interesting relationship with my own

internalized misogynoir, but I also can see like where it came from very, very clearly when I look back retrospectively. What would you describe as misogynoir? How would you explain that term to someone who wasn't aware of it? And you mentioned you've internalized it as well. Yeah. So I would describe it as anti-black misogyny. So yeah, particular opinions and feelings towards women that are anti-black. And when we consider the discourse around misogynoir is very American. So we can look to media and look at the ways that they might report on a black artist versus a white one. But I felt like my lens was really different because my context is completely different.

I'm not thinking about the media. I'm thinking about just being in the place that I call home and among the people that I call peers and it just looked and felt really different and you internalize it because I did care about the opinions of my peers I did care about being on the right side of of history when we looked back at our teen years so yeah yeah so tell me why then you try to distance yourself what was it specifically about this story that made you think, I do not want my name, my face attached to this?

I, as I said, I think I just did not want to even potentially entangle myself with the label Sket. So you felt it could reflect on you as not, even though you're writing about a character, it would reflect on you as the author. Yeah, I felt like how would I be able to prove that I wasn't talking about my own experiences, that I wasn't speaking from experience. Yeah, I definitely went down a rabbit hole and I was deep in that rabbit hole for a very, very long time,

really concerned about my self image and just trying to be on the right side of labels and perception. Now, I was thinking about this earlier and I wonder whether it's more intense being black and being labeled promiscuous as a woman than it is to be I can't compare because I am black and I have never been white but I'm wondering there's an edge to this Keisha the skit story that doesn't feel like it translates perhaps to other cultures it feels very deep rooted in black British culture to be labeled a skit is the ultimate no-no um I definitely agree with that as well um and I think that I sort of speak to that in the scene when Keisha goes into the pharmacy and she has to get the morning after pill and it's a Jamaican uh older woman who is the counter assistant who gets her the pill and the attitude of the counter assistant isistant is really, really cold,

really frosty towards Keisha, and I just think that that is quintessentially some of the difficulty that black girls have around their sexuality and sexual expression at a young age. It is almost like you mustn't, you shouldn't. It's wrong, it's a wrong thing, and the woman's really judgmental and is really sort of like, almost like, you know, why are you coming in here for this?

And Keisha can feel that and perceive that. And I think that that carries forward to perceptions of sexual expression among women, among black women specifically. Now that's one of very few adults in the Keisha the sketch story is that done on purpose there seems to be adults missing from this story that can help support hug Keisha when she needs it why is that? Yeah so definitely definitely because when I was 13 and 14 I didn't have the capacity to add the layer and the texture to the story um in the rewrite there is definitely so there's a rewritten version within the within the book I put the original and the rewrite and um in there there is a lot more um of the texture

and layer added to some of the adult characters but also also I think for one, Keisha is 17 and 18 in the story. So there is a level of independence that you do have at those ages. But I also think that there is a level of responsibility and adultification that black girls experience too early, too early. Yeah, adulthood thrust upon us, upon black women objectified from an early age and perhaps not allowed to show that vulnerability. No, for sure. Definitely. And then I think, I mean, I class and race and gender are things that I am very interested in. And I think even from a class standpoint, I have second generation parents and I very much see how some of their struggles meant that they were not able to necessarily be present as parents and so all of the intersections that keisha exists

at mean that she's adultified um because there is no money there's no resource in the home for you to be parented the way that we may want you to be um also because you're seen as as a big woman by the time you're 17 and 18 as well so yeah yeah that's that's adulthood that's adulthood when you get to 17 in some households but I think it's important to note that whilst there is some negativity whilst there are some hard-hitting subjects there's joy as well in music and fashion and in just being youthful. And sometimes that is missing from the black experience. It's often about trauma and negativity and we miss the joy sometimes. But you've got that in Keisha the skit.

Thank you. Yeah, I've attempted to be as nuanced as possible. But I think more than anything, just to depict the truth. Brilliant. The truth is is definitely definitely out there now you've gone from I suppose it seems like you've gone on a journey from wanting to distance yourself to now well this story is out in the world not only is it out in the world it's been published in book form for the very first time so everyone is going to know to a certain extent who you are although you are trying to to try and keep some privacy to your life. Are you ready for the impact that this might have? You know, are you ready for global audiences to read this

rather than just the British black community? I've not thought about global. So thank you very much. No, but yeah, I think more than anything, I'm ready for black working class stories to be told. And in my politics, that is very important to me. So, yeah, when I keep that at the forefront of my mind, very much ready. And I have to reiterate the fact that Candice Carty-Williams, another author of high esteem, has called you a literary foremother.

I mean, praise doesn't come much higher than that. Are you aware of the responsibility, I guess, that brings in representing, you know, the entire black community? I know that's not what it should be, but that's what happens, isn't it? When a black author comes out, they represent all of us. Are you ready? Are you ready for that part of it? Are you aware of how important your position is? Well, big up, Candice. And yeah, I feel like Keisha the Skit as a brand and what it is has grown its own legs.

It's much bigger than me. And I think what I will say is that I will do what I can to make sure that Keisha the skit remains what it is for so many people but I feel some distance between me and Keisha the skit actually um as a brandon as you know this big thing that it's grown to be I'm just yeah trying to do my part um and yeah yeah let it do bits. It's made waves. It's made waves for years and it's making waves again because now it's been published for the first time this week under Stormzy's murky books imprint. Thank you so much for talking to us, for the live read as well.

It's been a pleasure to meet you and I wish you just lots of success and I hope to, hopefully there'll be more books from you in the future. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Jade LB. Okay, now the average height of a female in the future. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Jade LB. Okay now the average height of a female in the UK is five foot three inches but what is life like for women at the other end of the spectrum especially when it comes to dating? Well we're joined by Andrea Hubert whose creative comebacks on being six foot one inch tall paved the way to her becoming a comedian. And Sarah Ivins, author of Get Real, who's six foot and up very early in Texas. My goodness. Thank you so much,

Sarah and Andrea, for joining us. Welcome to the programme. Now, Sarah, you were tall from a young age. What impact did that have on you growing up well I was a really shy quiet child so being taller than all of your peers from the age of what from when I can remember wasn't great to be honest because it meant I always had my head sort of stuck above the parapet and always stood out when all I wanted to do was this gangly, unganely child was to hide away. And when you are a giant, you can't hide. So it didn't do me any good. And I became an instant flusher. So I was always bright red and embarrassed and trying to duck and shrink and hide. It wasn't good. Okay, so that's not a positive experience. What about yourself, Andrea? I definitely felt like I stood out a lot. I didn't mind standing out. I guess, you know, I'm a comedian, so I like attention.

I didn't want to stand out for a physical attribute because that always struck me as very basic, you know, like it's just that's not an attribute that's just a thing that happened to you you know and whenever people would point it out it's like well done you have eyes but that's not a conversation that's interesting to me I didn't I didn't understand why people were doing it it just didn't make any sense okay so I'm really interested to hear Andrea about these examples of your comebacks so I approach you and I make a comment about your height and how tall you are and what would you say in response no bad language by the way no no bad language at all because my mother made me practice in front of the mirror she's like if people are making fun of you you need to be prepared for any situation so I would actually do that as like a quite a young

child um a lot of times it was what's the weather like up there I'm sure you've had that so what's the weather yeah I was like well it's England so the weather's exactly the same as it is down there also you're stupid just stuff like that and I mean one of my favorites is I mean I don't know about you Sarah but I always got asked to go back to back to see who's taller yeah and I was like yeah I'll go to back, but I'll do it Requiem for a Dream style or I'm not doing it. And that's about as dirty as you can get on a women's car. We'll leave it there then.

Sarah, how about yourself? Do those examples kind of relate to you as well? So true. It's really strange how people find it so fascinating because I don't know. I mean, obviously I've never been a short woman, but I'm not sure that women short shorter women get the same constant fascination and so it's almost like you're free it's freaky to be so tall as a woman and people comment on it

all the time and I see it now I have an eight-year-old daughter who's already off the chart tall and I see it every time she goes anywhere the comments about her so it's really interesting watching her go through it and how I'm going to prepare her so that she's not the one that's like always ducking and hiding and sloping around like the Hunchback of Notre Dame which is what I did and my posture is not great because of it so yeah we've had some some texts that come in from people who can really relate to this subject matter. Someone has texted in to say, I'm five foot ten inches and my husband is five foot four and a half inches tall. We've been married 37 years. He says people must look at him and think he's very rich, quite possibly.

What has been your experience, Andrea, with dating men that are shorter than you? Have you had any experiences of that? You must have. Yes, all men are shorter than me. Of course I have. I find that there's a really big difference between someone who likes you for yourself and someone who fetishises you as a physical thing. I've had more than one man ask to climb me like a tree.

And I'll be honest with you, I don't find that awesome. He was charming, wasn't he? Is that what you say? climb me like a tree and I'll be honest with you I don't find that awesome well he was a very charming wasn't he is that what you say like what I don't and so do you say to a short woman I'd like to sit on you like a stool I don't understand these people they make no sense to me and it's like well if you want to climb me like a tree guess what there's a wooded area right there you go climb a tree and I'm going to date someone who doesn't obsess over things like that I know I mean what you said earlier Sarah is interesting because I've got very short friends and they get a very different type of thing they get this kind of patronizing cuteness whereas I get oh you're so scary I'm like I'm

really not I'm just tall and I get a lot of anger from men like how dare you and I just I want to say to them I don't because you know it's it's hard enough for them but I want to say I didn't steal it from you and I didn't make the world into a place where men have to be all to be manly. Like we're all fighting the same nonsense. Don't blame it on me. By the way, you should try it up here. Sarah, sounds like you can relate to that. Well, very much. It's funny how people do find it intimidating in general. And I have never, ever once in my life been described as cute and I'm always quite envious of women that are sort of looked after and protected and

told they're cute and I'm like what would that be like but I think the minute you walk into a room as a six-foot woman um preconceived ideas are set about you that you can you know handle yourself and put up with stuff it's strange things that you're probably stronger and you could cope with like more ridicule or whatever it is. But I feel that there's definitely preconceived ideas about being tall. And the key really is to just embrace it. And I spent, you know, I've spent long enough, I've spent 30 years, as I said, sort of like shrinking from it.

And now I'm just like, you know what, this is me. As you said earlier, Andrew, it's the one thing that you don't choose you can't change your height it's literally one of the only things about your appearance you can't change do you really have to embrace it don't you you do have to embrace it I think it's wonderful and I started wearing heels a few years ago because I'm like you know what I can do that if I want to it's not my job to make everyone who's got their own issues feel better it's my job to make myself feel good and you know I think it's great I can reach everything you know but dating is odd you know men do find it intimidating they want the smaller women because society says so and as far as I'm concerned if

you're buying into that kind of narrative you're probably not the one for me anyway you know yes very true and Sarah you actually got me because Andrea mentioned heels you you married in Diamante Hills didn't you Sarah I did yes so after many many years of dating shorter men and um holding the umbrella for them and you know when it was raining and pushing them out of the way of like cyclists to protect them and making them stand in bathtub so that we were the same height so we could have a good snog at the same level. After many, many years of doing that, I finally met someone who was six foot four to my six foot. And so I thought, brilliant, I'm going to wear three inch heels on my wedding day.

I mean, I'm not used to heels being six foot, so I literally wore I'm gonna wear three inch heels on my wedding day I mean I'm not used to heels being six foot so I literally wore them to walk up the aisle then I switched them for flip flops but for half an hour I was six foot three and loving it so that has more to do with just like growing into your height and accepting it then then a like rom-com moment I have to be honest of course of course. But you're both embracing it. Thank you very much. Someone on Twitter has just popped up to say,

believe me, short women get it all the time too. Andrea and Sarah, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you on Woman's Hour this morning. That's all we've got time for. Emma will be back with you on Monday. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. This is Add to Playlist, a new podcast from BBC Radio 4 And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Keres and myself, and with the help of a different studio guest each week, we'll explore the rich

and unexpected web of connections between the music you love, hate and haven't even heard of. That's a promise. We'll go under the bonnet of our compositions and look closer at the nuts and bolts to reveal what's behind our favourite tunes. Just search for Add to Playlist on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.