Woman's Hour - Tamzin Outhwaite, 'Luteal Uglies', Kelly Latimer in space, Surrogacy laws in Europe

Episode Date: August 10, 2026

New York congresswoman and Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has revealed she has decided to freeze her eggs and will be documenting the process on social media - despite what she called a “political risk” for sharing her decision. She also confirmed over the weekend that she had not "ruled out the possibility" of running for president. Dr Emma Long Associate Professor of American History and Politics at the University of East Anglia joins Nuala McGovern.Actor, Tamzin Outhwaite talks about her latest role as the iconic Beverly in Mike Leigh’s ferocious black comedy, Abigail’s Party. Opening in London’s West End next week they’ll be discussing suburban life, social class, materialism and sexual tension in 1970s England. For those who don’t know - the luteal phase refers to the second part of the menstrual cycle. Dr Nighat Arif & Charlotte Dodds discuss why so-called ‘luteal uglies’ are going viral - videos of women sharing the physical and emotional changes they experience during this time. Nuala is joined by Bethany Bell, Germany reporter for the BBC, to shine a light on surrogacy laws there after a recent story involving a high-profile German politician, a baby born through surrogacy, and accusations of hypocrisy. And Kelly Latimer, flight test pilot and aeronautical engineer, is retiring this year after decades spent launching satellites, flying the world's most advanced planes, and even going into space. She reflects on a truly remarkable career. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

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It is indeed. Hello and welcome to the program. It's good to be back with you. Well, the US Congresswoman, Alexandria Ocasia Cortez, also known as AOC, she's a Democrat, says she is documenting the process of freezing her eggs to normalize the process and also to show more depictions of women having full lives in every context and every choice. She also appears to be mulling a presidential run. We're going to talk about the significance of her decision to share. We also have the actor, Tamsin Outweigh with us this hour. She's playing the iconic role of Beverly in Abigail's party.

Why does that play still resonate almost 50 years on? We'll also hear this hour about the extraordinary career of Kelly Latimer. She became Virgin Galactic's first female test pilot. What is it like to take an aircraft or a spacecraft to the edge of its capabilities? And we'll talk about the term the Luteal Uglies. It's all over social media about women's luteal phase, but is it helpful or just another way of telling women how they should feel? And we'll hear about the German politician who resigned after being accused of hypocrisy.

He became a parent through surrogacy, which is illegal in Germany, that was a policy he had previously defended. To get in touch with the program, there are lots of ways. On most smart speakers, you can say Alexa, Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text the program, that number 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website and for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0300-100-444. Anything that catches your eye and your ear on the program, do get in touch if you have a

comment related to it. So let us turn to the New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasia Cortez and her decision to freeze her eggs and document to the public that process. She called it a political risk sharing that decision. She also confirmed over the weekend that she had not ruled out the possibility of running for president. Well, Dr. Emma Long is an associate professor of American history and politics at the University of East. Anglia. Good morning. Good to have you with us, Emma. So tell those that haven't caught up with this story this morning exactly what she said so far. Hi, good morning. Well, so she posted

AOC posted a series of videos to her social media feeds over the weekend, sort of announcing that this was a process that she was undergoing, setting out what that process is for a lot of people who perhaps don't know what it involves. She also unpacked the equipment that she needs. And did to show people what that involved and injected herself with the start of the medications that women take in order to stimulate production as part of that. So the idea, I think, is to continue documenting what this process looks like, not only to show that, or to be open about the fact that she is undertaking it, but also as a way to say, to sort of demystify this process, which I think for a lot of people perhaps exists in the shadows or that they don't know about at all.

And it's one thing for an influencer, perhaps, online to do it. It's another for a congresswoman who is potentially mulling a run for president. How do you understand her reveal, which perhaps is the perfect word, which is such social media terminology. She was even doing the unboxing, as you describe there as well, of showing and injecting on camera. At one point, I think I saw it in the ABC newsroom because she did give an interview with that particular US broadcaster as well over the weekend.

Yeah, this was her first interview in a few weeks and she had said in advance and then she did that she was going to inject herself in the green room before the interview took place. As part of making a point of saying that women can do all of it, that, you know, in a sense that, you know, her life doesn't have to come to an end or her normal life doesn't have to come to an end because this is something that she's doing. In regard to your point about influences, I think in some ways her point is that actually

it can be anybody. Anybody can go through this. Anybody can take it on. That it is something that you can do even if you have a high-powered job that involves, being really busy all of the time. And of course, being a politician gives her a platform in a different way to somebody who's in the public eye in a different way. We saw in one of the videos that she posted that she used it as a way to challenge the administration's policies on health care, female health care, reproductive health care generally. And of course, that's something she's spoken about before, but this links into a broader political theme. that she may want to flag up.

But I suppose Manny would say, she talks about a political risk or a political tax, you know, egg freezing, particularly I would imagine in the United States, is for the elite few. This is not something that would be within reach for many, many women. What has the reaction been thus far that you have seen? So far there's been relatively little reaction. For example, the White House hasn't commented yet.

which is unusual given how often the White House comments on all kinds of things. There's been support, as you might expect, from sort of left-wing groups and various political groups on the left. The right has been relatively quiet so far, but we've seen a couple of criticisms. One, that this is just a publicity stunt. Remember, I mean, you mentioned about her saying that she hadn't at least ruled out running for the presidency in 2028, but she's in her own election campaign at the moment.

She's running for re-election to the House in the midterms in November. So she's got that going on. So there's been some criticism that this is about getting publicity for her own campaign, but immediate campaign rather than necessarily for the presidency. And as you might expect, there's been a comment from a spokesperson from Turning Point USA, the sort of conservative pro-family action group, which basically said what you might expect to to come from groups in that particular context, which is that this is,

sort of this fits with a liberal progressive message of prioritising career of a family, that actually at 36, 37, AOC is already old, sort of old in reproductive terms, and that basically that this is too little too late, in a sense, from their point of view, because they think women should be starting families younger and that's primarily what they should be doing.

So what little response there has been so far has been reasonably predictable within the bounds of US politics. And no doubt, I imagine as America wakes up as well, there may be more reaction a lot that I saw. It did divide down party lines because in a way it is, it can be a culture, issue, as you outline there as well, and something that can be quite divisive.

We are talking about surrogacy later in the programme in the realm of German politics. But when it comes to women and fertility, of course, it can often make headlines. How likely do you think it might be that she would actually run for president in 2028? We do know that she has distanced herself from some of her more, what people would have called radical statements from the left, for her. example, in recent weeks? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of discussion at the moment and has been for a while about who would be the obvious Democratic candidate. I think, you know, her name is there in the ring with various others. I think she faces similar problems to other candidates, which is

that there's this sort of emerging divide in the Democratic Party between the sort of moderate centrist, those who, a little bit like Kamala Harris, for example. want to move more to the centre of politics. And those on the left like AOC, but also Zoran Mandami, for example, the mayor of New York, that kind of democratic socialist movement who want to move the party more to the left. So, you know, her name is one amongst many. Her point about a political tax in this raises is very real

in the sense that women in American politics, as we've seen, with both Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris, face all kinds of comments about their actions and their behaviour and their lifestyles that male politicians do not. But at this point, we're a couple of years out from the presidential election, so there's a long way to go. There's a long way to go, but they start early, as you know better than most, Emma. Dr. Emma Long is Associate Professor of American History and Politics

at the University of East Anglia. Thank you very much for joining us this morning as we talk about egg freezing, but let me move on. One of British theatres, most iconic hosts is back. She is ready with the cheese and pineapple sticks, the drinks trolley,

and plenty of sharp-tongued observations as well. Tamson Outweight is taking on the iconic role of Beverly in Mike Lee's, ferocious black comedy Abigail's party. This is a study of, of suburban life, social class, materialism, sexual tension in 1970s England. But it opens in London's West End at the Harald Pinter Theatre on the 12th of August. Yes.

So people are in for a treat. Tamson, you may know her from EastEnders. You might know her new tricks. You might know her Hotel Babylon. You might know her for her extensive theatre work. For example, entertaining Mr Sloan. But let us start by talking about Abigail's party and Beveridge. I had the joy of watching a screener of the play.

I haven't seen you in the flesh on stage, but I loved even watching it from that distance. For those that haven't seen Abigail's party, how would you describe it, Tamsin, and welcome? Ah, it's an evening of excruciating comedy. It's a party that you certainly don't want to be at, but you cannot stop watching it. And Beverly has invited the neighbours over.

And it's really to show off. And she's Sue, the only middle class person on the street at number nine. She's arrived too. So there are five of them, her husband, Lawrence, the neighbours, Angela and Tony. And as my director, Nadia Faw says, which I love this description, Beverly spends the evening picking off the legs of the spider one by one. and she builds people up and then she tears them down. And she is what we would, at the time,

I don't know if we'd have called her a narcissist. We might not have had the language, but she's definitely a narcissist. And she basically does it all with such humour that you can't help but find her compelling. And she is glamorous. Yes. She's got the high heels on, the shag carpet,

the flowing dress, the big hair. And it was a role that Alison Stedman played. And that was quite an iconic, I suppose, role as well. What did it feel like to step into those high heels? Well, in 2024, when we first did it, we did it at Stratford East. And when I was first offered it, I obviously thought, do you try and how do you go about following that?

Because it's so iconic, the play for today. and she was the original with Mike Lee's production. They started at Hampstead Theatre and then they did the play for today. And I thought, well, in Essex, I knew those women growing up. And I always think about a role, how much of yourself can you bring to it? And then so you have the character over there,

you have yourself here, and then somehow you try and knit them together so that the gap between them is shortened. And I thought to myself, knowing those women growing up, I mean less exaggerated versions, certainly not as kind of wild as Beverly, I thought I can tap into that.

That's almost in my DNA. So tapping into those Essex women, I found it, it was wonderful because I could kind of colour in. I had this drawing in my head of what Beverly should be. And then I spent the last, well, since 2024, being able to colour it in, which has just been wonderful finding all these different colours. Because she's vile.

She is a monster. But she's funny and she's bored and she's lonely. And there are many different qualities to her. She's not all bad, even though she's hideous and a monster. Yeah, but you can't take your eyes off because you're never sure what she's going to do next. One thing that really stayed at me watching it is Beverly's habit. And we've probably all met somebody like this. I mean, it happens quite a bit in kind of slick media training, I think, now as well, that you say, now, Tamson.

Now, tell me, Tamson. That you have like the name repetition, tone. Yes, absolutely. And I thought that is used to great comic effect. Yes, because it draws them in, doesn't it? And I think with Beverley, she has very little vocab. So she'll say the same things over and over again. She'll overuse the name.

She'll say, mind you, you know, she'll say, let's face it a lot. So she kind of pads things out. Do you know what I mean? But she's not really saying anything. And she does it all with a smile on her face like she is the best hostess in the world. But what she's actually saying, if you broke that down, it's quite nasty. Because it's the most banal conversation that is the most compelling piece of theatre to, watch, which is, I suppose, shows it's brilliant. First performed in 1977, but, you know,

we're almost 50 years on. People are packing theatre to see it and the reviews have been fantastic, which is a credit to you. Why do you think it still resonates? Because all of the subject matter still, it's still around. It's still in our language. The underlying casual racism that happens. It still happens. That struck me. I mean, there's a lot of it in the play, one particular where they speak about, I think, neighbours that were from Pakistan moving in. But two of your co-stars are British Asian. Yes. So this is the genius of Nadia four.

Instead of just casting it all white, which is probably how Mike Lee saw it in the first place and how it generally is, casting the two neighbours as Asians basically means that all of that underlying racism hits harder. It's darker. It's more cruel. And I can't see it any other way now. It feels like we all know it's a comedy, but I don't think we all realized how tragic it was at the same time. Tragic is a really good word to use.

I mean, some of the themes, just as those are what, suburbia, one upmanship, divorce, women's lib, as they call it, marriage, smoking, drinking, constant. The dream of a holiday abroad and having a garden and barbecuing. Barbecuing and having an ox on a spit. This is something that Anne would really like. Yes. Which is the neighbour also a fantastic character.

Yeah, she's brilliant. I mean, we've got the most incredible cast. Lauren Patel, who's just fantastic. Omar, Malik. Pandora Colin playing Sue. Kevin Bishop playing Lawrence, who's just wonderful. And actually, coming back to the character of Sue, she is divorced. And you see at that time there is so much stigma.

around that and to be married was considered a status symbol. Well, it was the done thing, as Mike Lee says. He talks about the fact that in the 70s, in the working class world, you know, you did what was the done thing. So getting divorce will have been something that the stigma attached to that was pretty dark. And they talk about it to Sue blatantly. they make her feel shame. Yes.

Which is quite sad. Which you can feel in her body in the way that she is sitting on stage. Here's one. Got in touch. Saw Abigail's party in Cambridge. Thoroughly enjoyed it. I was getting really irritated

by Beverly's character played by Tamsin, which was so clever. Still trying to figure out, oh, I loved this bit, still trying to figure out the bonkers strobe dance sequence at the beginning of the second act.

It certainly made me think. So we'll just leave that for people, but there is a, an interlude, shall we say, where it is made as if it could be within a rave and you see characters out of character. Yes. It might be a way to describe it.

Let's go back a bit. You got your big break in EastEnders playing Mellon. I understand your mother tried to dissuade you from taking that role. Yes. How funny. She did. She said, she thought I was better than that. I was a jobbing actor.

Which is great. Like if you think there's many, a character within Abigail's party that might think the same, right? I think that she thought everybody, I remember her saying, but everyone speaks like that. So she thought I would be like typecast forever. But then I had to remind her, but that's exactly how we spoke.

That's how we spoke. We were brought up in Essex. We were just not as exaggerated as that East London Cockney, that sound. So she said, you know, oh, I don't think you should do it. And I remember saying, Mum, it's only a three-month contract with a three-month option. So I'm a jobbing actress still. And what will happen is when it finishes, I'll go back to doing theatre or a different telejob.

It's just another credit. And of course, that turned into three and a half years. And she was fine about it once I started getting storylines and she could watch it three or four times a week. Yeah, yeah. She sounded like she was your biggest fan. And I know she died a number of years ago. Yeah. I'm sorry for your loss.

But how did your life change after East Anders? Oh, it changed quite a lot because doors opened that. I mean, I always was very, very into being a company member in a theatre production and was always a jobbing actor. I never really, I was just really happy to make a living from doing something I loved. So the variety of work was my ambition. There wasn't a place that I said, I've got to do that or I need to win that or I, you know, I need to be in that.

I just loved working. And once I came out of EastEnders, it's funny because you were just talking about egg freezing. And I remember being inundated with work when I left EastEnders. And I was in my early 30s. And scripts were coming thick and fast. I couldn't read them quick enough, never mind filmed them. What a wonderful position to be in in some ways, right?

You know, I never ever lost sight of how wonderful that was. And I was so grateful of the doors it opened. And I remember. I remember working on Redcap and I was on series two and I probably was 32, 33 and I remember my female producer saying, because you're so in demand and you have so much work at the moment, you should freeze your eggs. And I remember that being such an alien thing. Completely. I remember thinking, freeze my eggs for what reason?

How? How? What? And she said, because it's very, very common that very successful women of a certain age, they get to like 40. especially women in the city, she said. And women will go to their gynecologist and say, now I'm ready. And the gynecologist will say, I'm sorry, but there's nothing, that you have no eggs or it's not possible.

It's too late. So she was warning me and preparing me and, you know, guiding me, I suppose. But at the time, I was just like, that's so alien to me. There's no way I would do that because I will fall in love and hopefully have children that way. I don't know. It just felt weird. Yeah.

Of course, now when I look back, I think that would have been a wonderful option. And the thing is, as well, incredible with fertility, we're talking about a couple of items on the program today. Ten years makes such a difference, I think, in how society views certain issues. I can do and it can also make it more divisive as well for some. But let's talk about family because you did have kids and you have spoken about the joys of multi-generational. living. Your dad, Colin, lives with you, as I understand. It's not for everyone, but it's worked for you. Well, he doesn't live in the house. Yes, I understand that. I had a cabin. We can only call it a cabin. I'd say it's a luxury cabin. It's not like a shed.

And he, you know, he has his mod-cons in the sense that he has underfloor heating in a shower room and a bedroom and a little lounge and it's not big. But eight and a half years ago, he wasn't very well and we moved him in because he lived quite far away in a bungalow. And what multi-generational living has done for us is it's given me a chance to be able to take food to him, you know, whenever I'm cooking, make sure he's got stuff. So he had half a lung removed with lung cancer many years ago when he first moved in. So we saw him through that. 20 years ago, 20 odd years ago, he had prostate cancer.

We thought we were going to lose him then. So to be honest, when I moved him in nearly nine years ago, I didn't think he was going to last the year. And we've had eight and a half years since. And a lot of that is to do with, I think, not being so lonely because the kids, you know, he sometimes has to walk to the house, which is only 10 steps away. But he has to come through the house to go out.

So there is life. There are teenagers running around. I mean, when he first moved in, there were young kids running around. and I think being able to know that he can just walk to the house if he needs stimulation or, but the fact that he just wants to stay where he is, watch Sky Sports. But you don't have to travel to go see him either,

to check in on him. I wouldn't have the time. Yeah. And what it's done is provide me with a, like a lifeline to him, which is all through COVID. You know, we used to joke about a pulley system going up and down. but I would take him food and put it outside. We would open his doors in the summer during COVID and lockdown.

And my youngest would sit outside with a cup of tea, but they would watch the same program through the window. What an image. And it's crazy to think that we did that. You know, I have glass doors at the back, and they would have full conversations and kiss each other through the glass. And they have a very special bond, my youngest and my dad. And I suppose now he's not, I mean, he's been doing.

doing chemo quite a lot lately and he's not, he had a bad day yesterday, but then he might have a great day tomorrow. But knowing that we are at the end 10 steps away has kept him brighter, I think. I mean, my younger brother has been coming while I've been on tour the last seven weeks. He's been staying two, three nights a week. And my kids love that because they love him. And so I do think the multigenerational living has worked for us. I can see why it wouldn't for a lot of people. We wish him well. Thank you. You wish you well.

Tamzin, outweighed, lovely to have you in. I want to let people know that the production of Abigail's party is running until September, starting on the 12th of August, running until September at the Harold Pinter Theatre in London. It's Cracken. Thanks so much, Tampson. Thank you so much. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, next, are the Luteel Uglies real? Thousands of women are sharing videos about the physical and emotional and emotional.

changes they experience in the days before their period when hormone levels shift during what is known as the luteal phase. Some say they feel bloated, less attractive, emotionally low. But are social media video trends like luteal uglies helping women understand their bodies, or are they just telling them how they should feel? Charlotte Dodds, it does experience some of the changes that I've outlined there. We also have with us, Dr. Niggott-A-Reefe, G-P-Lew,

and author of The Knowledge, your guide to female health, from menstruation to the menopause, both with us. Great to have both of you with us. Doctor, let me begin with you. I outlined Luteel Uglies. How do you see that term?

Does it really make a big difference that week with the hormone levels? It does, and it's really great to have a term that validates what a lot of women experience. And it depends if they've got any other gynaecological conditions like PMS, PMDD, which is premen, premenstrual dysphoric disorder. And also if you've got P-MOS or polyendocrine metabolic ovarian syndrome,

so it does actually overlap into other serious conditions. The thing is, this is a great marketing term, isn't it? It's grooming women almost like something else to worry about. Luteel is a normal phase of our menstrual cycle. So it is normal, but it can be a bit of a pain, I think Charlotte would agree. Charlotte, tell me a little bit about how you became aware of various symptoms. at that time in the month? I mean, obviously, it's a very tongue-in-cheek phrase,

but it does describe something that I recognise as experiencing myself. So there's a few days in the month where I might feel completely different to how I would normally feel, you know, skin breaking out, feeling bloated, looking bloated, maybe, you know, not feeling as confident in myself. And then a week later, I can look at myself and think, what on earth was all of that? What was I saying?

What was I experiencing? And I think I'm in quite a unique position. I founded a community of female business owners in the bacon industry. And it's predominantly women in there. So being surrounded by that many women, you do quickly realize that a lot of the things that we privately just think, oh, you know, is it only me, I'm only going through this. Am I going a bit crazy?

Really aren't that unique to us. And it makes you realize how many women are experiencing the exact same things. What about that term, though, that gave me pause, the Luteal uglies? Like, I am very sure that you are not ugly during that phase, Charlotte. And I just wonder about the message that it could be sending to women, even if it's useful to have something to hang your hat on about how you're feeling. Yeah, I mean, if I go back to school, I don't really remember being taught that much about my menstrual.

cycle beyond the normal periods in pregnancy. And I definitely wasn't really taught how to recognise that I might feel different in myself at different parts in the months or what that would actually look like. And obviously, you know, social media has got its problems, particularly when people start diagnosing themselves from a 30 second video that they might see on TikTok. But it's also really allowed people, like women like me, to compare experiences. So these phrases, like I said, the Lutea Luglies, might be very tongue-in-cheek. But when you hear somebody, another women, describe something and think, hang on, I actually suffer from that every month as well.

I think it's got its benefits there. So it depends how you create your feed, how you create what you read and hear on social media. But I think that it's given women the language to start conversations that they were already needing to have. What about that, doctor? What do you think about the term or how it can be interpreted? Well, this is why we're having this conversation. It's formed a discord on social media. And also, this is the language that comes into my clinics as well.

There is real science behind this. I wouldn't use the word uglies as a clinician myself because I think that's quite demeaning and puts women down because, of course, you're not ugly in that phase. But it's validating to use that term if that is how you feel. And that's the difference because the, emotional side and the cognitive function side is very impactful in that letile phase. So for example.

So for example, in the letile phase, there's a couple of things that's happening. Our estrogen is lowering. And as our estrogen lowers, our skin might not be feeling as so lovely and plump. You might find that the skin tone, you might have like a little ashy appearance to it. You might even find that you're becoming slightly puffy. Some people end up having more fluid retention. So they actually feel more bloated. and that again makes them feel with their body image, not the place that they want to be.

The other places your hair might not be so great at that time. Finally, your sleep, so as progesterone also is changing and it's shifting, it increases and waves around with the progesterone, that impacts our sleep. And then obviously at that time, what we also find is that your sleep, your melatonin hormone goes out of kilter, as well as your serotonin, because that bloatingness affects your gut. 95% of serotonin comes from our gut. And then also in that phase, what we've realized is that you're more likely to pick up, let's say, flu-like symptoms or feel nauseous.

And that's because your immune system uses estrogen as a modulator to work and fight off stuff. So, of course, you're not feeling at your best in this Lothel phase. And with the cognitive function, irritability, your mood might be lower, depression, anxiety, rejection feels really intense as well. And then as soon as your bleed happens, or a couple of days after your bleed happens, you're like, exactly as we were saying, what was going on? I'm absolutely fine now, and I'm thinking just how I would normally do it. And it's just, but we need to recognise it's a temporary phase. And I suppose I hear a lot of women say relief is kind of what they feel.

Once they get their period, I can see Charlotte nodding there as well. But I suppose the question is what to do about it, because Charlotte did outline, you know, that the knowledge can be so sparse. I mean, I think it was really in later years that I kind of started reading about, you know, like four seasons, basically, in your cycle, that you have like a spring, summer, autumn, winter. And so we say if you're very heavy flow, don't kill yourself exercising really intensely, for example,

during that week. Some people disagree with that, of course. But I think there is something to us understanding more about where our bodies are in each week if we have a cycle like that. I really love the fact that there's so much education coming around with this because we need to understand that women are cyclical and cyclical. So we have the four phases.

is we've got the menstruation, follicular ovulation, and then we've got the luteal phase as well, and then you're back to your bleed, your menstruation phase. And then to understand not just these phases happen, but the hormonal shifts that are happening. So we've got tracking apps. We've also got individuals who are able to also look at the fact that their brain health.

So our head is not detached from our ovaries and our womb and the cycle that goes through. We're understanding the synergy between our mental health and our physical health, which is incredible. And I think things to do would be to track, know what's normal for you. Look at what you're eating as well. Diet has a huge implication.

Weight training is really important. And I think connectivity, talk to those around you about how you're feeling. Because I think the other thing that was mentioned earlier was how we all go through this, but we keep it to ourselves hidden. There's so much shame attached to it. And society can be set up in a way that it's not easy to be able to the bend of the demands of your cycle, for example. Charlotte, I'm just wondering during your luteal face, because you know it's coming now, do you in any way adapt or amend your lifestyle or your schedule at that point?

I mean, personally, I'm not going to rearrange my entire diary around my menstrual cycle. You know, life doesn't work like that. I'm self-employed. I've got a business to run. I've got two children as well who are primary school age, customers meetings, all that kind of stuff. But if I know why my energy or confidence feels different, if I've got that understanding, I can take the pressure off myself a little bit and just give myself that understanding. I'm not asking, you know, I'm not making excuses.

I'm not asking for extra sympathy. I'm just understanding my own body and taking the pressure off myself. That's, I suppose, the whole... The whole reason about why we're speaking about it, raising awareness. Yeah, absolutely. I think knowing when it's, it's too extreme. So as I said earlier, when is it PMDD? When is it the fact that you're losing two weeks out of a month

where you're just in a place of real difficulty in darkness? One question actually I meant to run by you as well. Some people online consult your GP before following anything I mentioned right now. Suggest going on H-R-T as a solution to the Luteal phase. So hormone replacement therapy, H-R-T, is specifically for a certain stage in your life. So at the moment, the Nice Guidelines and the British Menopause Society guidelines say it's used for perimenopausal symptoms as the first line treatment. But no, we're not endorsing that you go on HRT, hormone replacement therapy, just if you're on your regular cycles in your fertility years, just to manage the luteal phase. But this is where I think it's really important to get that educational piece and understand there are ways to manage that and also find out those underlying conditions.

So track, track, track, know what's normal for you, know if it's taking over your life, despite, you doing all the adjustments that work, then have that conversation with your GP, ideally a GP that specialises in women's health. Thanks to you both. Thank you very much, Charlotte, for sharing your experience as Charlotte Dodds and also with her, Dr. Nigat Arif, author of The Knowledge. If you do have a concern about your menstrual cycle, you should contact your GP, as I mentioned. But thanks to both my guests.

Lives Less Ordinary is bringing you a special series of extraordinary loving, stories from all around the world. In India, love at first sight feels more psychotic than arranged marriage. Love stories that break all the rules. We came into our relationship with a lot of complicated pieces. Stories that show that sometimes love is all you need. Lives Less Ordinary Love Stories from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for Lives Less Ordinary wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

Now, have you ever lost your cool? when your car stalled at a roundabout, for example. What about stalling a plane at 30,000 feet on purpose? Well, I had the pleasure of sitting down with a woman who has made a career from such terrifying feats. Kelly Latimer is the trailblazing flight test pilot and aeronautical engineer, who was retiring this year after decades spent

flying the world's most advanced aircraft and spacecraft. She was the first female research pilot, test pilot, hired at NASA's Armstrong Flight Research Centre. Following the astronaut dream as a woman was not always the most direct path. When I sat down with Kelly, I asked her whether she had always known that she wanted to live a life quite literally at the edge.

I'd always wanted to be an astronaut. That was like from a little kid and going through my Air Force career and everything, it was always geared towards, you know, what do I need to do to be an astronaut? Because I was just fascinated with space. I was like a little space nerd growing up. I mean, I loved sci-fi and would get books on moon and Mars and all that stuff. So that was really what motivated me was wanting to be an astronaut.

So what happened? I mean, we wouldn't have had that many role models, let's say, you know, when we were growing up for female astronauts. Yeah, you know, so when I was looking it up, so for me, I was, you know, it was about junior high because I figured by high school I needed to have a serious plan, you know, how to make this happen. So I went to the library, pulled out the encyclopedia and read about astronauts. And yeah, they were all men. It was all, you know, like it was all test pilots and they were all fighter pilots. But at that time, they had just changed the rule to allow women to be military pilots. That was around 77 was the first class of women to graduate.

So my timing was great. And I thought, well, sure, there aren't women astronauts yet. But that's just because they haven't had the path and the ability to do that. And I'm coming along right at the perfect time. I love this girl. I love this girl in the library making a plan. Yeah. And it was funny is, you know, the encyclopedias.

So I started reading about how do you become a test pilot? Well, you have to be an officer. And I was like, oh, how do you become an officer? And, you know, I looked at the different services. And it was like you can go, you know, ROTC, you can go to the academies. I'm like, ooh, the academies. I just saw this movie, women at West Point about the first women going to West Point. So I start looking up the academies and they go, you have to be a male.

And I was like, no, I know they changed it. But it was an older encyclopedia. So you had to go and get, every year they had a little change sheet, right? Because the encyclopedias only came out like four or five years. So I found the change. I'm like, oh, okay, I knew it. Yes, women are allowed to go. So, okay. Exactly, you're unlocking memories from you as well. I'm just thinking younger listeners will be like, what? You ought to go to the library. There wasn't like the internet and get the latest updated information. So you applied for the Air Force Academy thinking this is the path that you're going to take. This is the early 80s.

I understand that you kept it a secret from your parents. Yeah, well, because I just thought they would think, I didn't think they were, against me going. I just thought they would think I was crazy wanting to do it, but I was just determined that was the plan. So I actually wrote, before my freshman year, I wrote a little typed letter to the Academy. You know, dear sirs, my name is Kelly Latimer. I'll be attending high school. I would like to get information about applying the Air Force Academy. I would be, you know, applying for the class entering in 1983, and they sent me a whole package. So I got the package, hit in my room, read all about it. I had the whole plan on how to get there. I was very motivated.

And what happened to the dream to become an astronaut? So I was still building my resume to be able to go to test pilot school. So I couldn't do the route, the fighter pilot route, which is at that point, most of the astronauts who were pilots were fighter pilots. But women were coming along going to test pilot school, but with a cargo background. Having to do a diverted course, let's say. And so as I watched it, the first shuttle pilot was Island. Collins and that's what she did. She was a T-38 instructor, flew 141s, and then went to test pilot

school and then she became an astronaut. So just right ahead of me was my first role model. If you can see it, you can be it. And describe what a test pilot does. So a test pilot will take the aircraft out, fly it through very specific maneuvers, capture data, and then the engineers will take that data and see if their models are good or if they need to change them. And so it's really fun because you get to be, for a pilot, it's a lot of fun because you get to take an aircraft for the first time, you know, to a certain airspeed altitude, through a certain maneuver for a first time, actuate the systems for the first time. I mean, it's, it's pretty exciting and it's not, everyone always looks at it as a very risky career. And there is risk,

for sure, but we do a lot of research ahead of time on stepping through things slowly, you know, building up to the edge of the envelope and not just jumping out to the end and, you know, flying a crazy maneuver. Everything is very planned. It's very methodical. We have a lot of lot of discipline between calls, like when to start a maneuver, when to stop a maneuver. Very frightening stuff for some people, very fun for others, as I can see with the smile on your face. So everything is going swimmingly at this point, and you're kind of on track to become an astronaut. Yeah, so I went to test pilot school, 96, graduated. Then I did three years of flight testing. So at this point, I kind of had the whole resume, the package was built. And then I

went over on staff at the test pilot school was instructing when the NASA cycle came out. for applications. So I applied all this time, all this effort. I apply and actually interviewing twice. But the bottom line is I got disqualified for a thyroid, like a thyroid antibody reading in my blood. So frustrating. Yeah, it's just a very female thing as well might I ask.

It is. And as a matter of fact, from our interview group, there's another woman in my group. She was in the engineering category. She had the exact same thing. And so for them, for NASA, it's just disqualifying. And so the note I get from the flight doctor was, well, it's a condition that may or may not affect you for the rest of your life, but you should monitor your thyroid. However, there's nothing you can do to change it, and it's absolutely disqualifying. How do you come back from something?

I know you're laughing and smiling, but the disappointment must have been intense. We've just gone through this career trajectory that you've had all kind of working towards that point. Yeah, it was like the ultimate gut punch. And so I went through, you know, all the stages of grieving pretty much. I was, you know, I was mad. I was sad. I was, you know, mad again. And then when I finally got over all that, you know, I realized that I just had this amazing career. I've flown around the world. I've got to fly all these different airplanes. And I have this incredible resume. I have all of these other opportunities in front of me. And honestly, I would have never done any of it had I not been prepared. pursuing that dream. So I felt like this isn't going to happen, but wow, look at where you are.

So interesting. I understand at times in your career you've had to like stall a plane at 30,000 feet as part of the test. How does that feel? It feels fun. One woman's idea of fun is another woman's idea of a nightmare. But let's talk about space a little bit more because I understand three years ago, you did make it into space as a commercial. astronaut. Yep. So as I was working for Boeing, a friend of mine who was a pilot at Virgin Galactic at the time called me and said, hey, we are, you know, we're building our program here at Virgin Galactic. We're just getting ready to finish our first spaceship vehicle. And if you ever wanted to do this, now is the time. So I came down, met the whole team, saw what they were doing,

and I was like, I'm in. And what was it like? Tell us a bit of what the experience was like. Yeah. So the way Virgin Galactic does the spaceflight, there's a mother ship. So there's a ship with two fuselages, a large wing in between, and then wings on the outside with four engines. The spaceship is connected in the middle. So the mother ship basically flies the spaceship up to about 40,000 feet. And then the spaceship gets dropped. You light the rocket motor. So from the spaceship side, it's this really kind of enjoyable flight as you go up for about 40 minutes or so. And then all of a sudden, it's game on. So one of you. One of you. One of the spaceship's side, it's a lot. So one. Once you get dropped, the spaceship drops straight down, you light the rocket motor, and within about a second and a half, you get 70,000 pounds of thrust going straight forward. And I had flown a lot of aircraft. It is the most astounding acceleration I have ever felt on anything. It was amazing. So you're accelerating straight forward at about three and a half Gs. You know, G is like one time the force of gravity.

It's three and a half Gs going forward. And as we're going up, you're still accelerating up. And as we get lighter, the thrust is the same. So the acceleration increases. So you just feel yourself getting just shot out of the atmosphere. And as you look outside, you see the blue sky turn to this deep blue. And then you just see this, it's almost like a black velvet come down where you're just looking out of it. There's nothing.

It's just a void. It's just utter dark and black. And so in this void, you. you see the entire planet come into view. And it is just the most brilliant, beautiful, magnificent thing that I'll ever see. I mean, it's just breathtaking. It's astounding. It's hard to even describe the feeling.

I think you're describing it so beautifully. And so for about three minutes, you just have your still, the vehicle itself is actually still going up, you know, but you don't sense any of that. Like once you're kind of out of the atmosphere looking down, you just feel like you're floating there. And we turn off all the fans, so it's very quiet. It's a very amazing experience. And then as the vehicle starts to come back down towards the atmosphere,

we rotate it around so we come down, you know, belly down, have everybody get strapped into their seats. And then we basically just come back into the atmosphere. And it's kind of like this rude awakening that the experience is over because there's a lot of wind, a lot of rush, a lot of vibration. And it's kind of cool because it's like, well, we're coming back from our, you know, experience of just wonder out there. What an experience?

Did it feel, I don't know, some sort of vindication or like? Yes, yes. It was, you know, so after that flight, I looked back and everything was worth it. Yeah, everything was worth it. How wonderful. You know, it is a commercial space tourism company. Does that give you pause at all? You know, so many people will complain about it really being in the echelons, no pun intended of, like, you know, these just the very few, the very wealthy, the elite within the world that are able to do it. obviously environmental concerns as well when it comes to space travel when people say there's enough issues down on earth? Yeah, I think like anything, it always starts very expensive and very few get to do it. But the goal of Virgin Galactic is starting there, but then building it up.

And then once you start having a larger operation, everyone gets to have that experience. The cost comes down and then it becomes something that everybody can do. And the thing about it, you get that view of the Earth. You get that view of like the little tiny atmosphere. And it really is different. Like you can look at pictures and you can see stuff. But when you actually get out and have that chance to look down, it gives you all different perspective on the Earth, the planets, our responsibility, how precious it is. And you look down at this beautiful, perfect little planet that has everything we need to keep us alive. And you go, we should probably take bitter care. Which I suppose ties in with the environmental concerns, though some are trying to get

you know, for example, regular flights to be curbed. I think the thought of Virgin Galactic or whatever other company, you know, proliferating from all many people to take flight in this way would be a cause of concern for them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's hard to get over that because there are carbon concerns. And if you're doing, I'm not sure what, how many flights it becomes where it really becomes an issue. You know, we flew one flight a month for six months, so six flights isn't going to do anything

where you're hundreds of flights and then you're hundreds and hundreds of flights. But at that point, you also have the ability to change your fuels. You take a look and say, hey, how do we change these things? What a woman. Kelly Latimer, the first female test pilot for Virgin Galactic, also the chief test pilot at Virgin Orbit.

And if all that peaked your interest, you can catch the engineers flying at the edge. That program was broadcast on the BBC World Service last Saturday in partnership, with the Royal Commission for the exhibition of 1851. It's all on BBC Sounds. Also, the live panel with Kelly will be broadcast on television on the 22nd of August on BBC News,

also on BBC IPlayer and the BBC World Service YouTube channel. So many, many ways to watch and listen to Kelly. She was great fun to talk to. Next, we want to catch up with a story involving a high-profile German politician, a baby born through surrogacy and accusations of hypocrisy. It is a case that shines a light

on the laws of surrogacy in Germany and others. To explain, I'm joined by Bethany Bell, Germany reporter for the BBC. Good to have you with us, Bethany. So let's go back to a post on Instagram that started all of this last month. What happened?

Yes, this was a post on Instagram and an interview with the tabloid paper built. Yenzpan, who, Spahn, who is a senior German politician in the Conservative CDU party, said that he and his husbands had become parents using a surrogate mother in the United States. And he said, my husband has become a dad, so have I. Georg is our whole world, our greatest joy. The feeling is impossible, almost impossible, to put into words. And then

his husband, Daniel Funke, posted a picture on Instagram of the couple was Spahn pushing a pram along with the words, we are family. And that unleashed a huge controversy. Because, and controversial, because? Because surrogacy is banned in Germany, and that's a policy which is firmly backed by Spahn's center-right Christian Democrat Party and several years ago by Spahn himself.

Under German law, surrogacy in Germany is part. punishable with three years of imprisonment or a fine. And so that's why he went to the United States to look for a surrogate mother. And there isn't a German ban on bringing a child born to a surrogate mother abroad, but he was accused of double standards and hypocrisy because it was against his party's policies. And also a lot of people were saying that it wasn't right for politicians to use their power and money to circumvent that ban. and that he was going basically against the spirit of German law. A cursory search said surrogacy in the United States

could be at least $100,000 just to give people a ballpark figure there. It could have been more, I suppose, in this instance. But what did Mr. Span say in his defense? Well, I mean, he said, I mean, first of all, was the fact that he and his husband wanted a child and that Georg was their complete joy. But the problem was his positions in the past. The CDU is firmly against surrogacy.

And in 2015, Mr. Spahn wrote, said that as a gay man and a Christian, I find it personally very hard to warm to the idea of a rented womb. And in February, when his surrogate mother was already pregnant, the CDU party signed a resolution reaffirmed support for a ban on surrogacy, and Schbahn said nothing at the time. And also when he was health minister back in 2020, he rejected calls for the ban to be relaxed. So since then, he has had to resign. Could you talk us through what happened with his role? Well, there was enormous criticism,

and most critically there was criticism from within his party. So he resigned, he said that he'd realized that his personal happiness, founding a family and becoming a father with his husband, wasn't compatible with his political office. And Germany's Chancellor Friedrich Meertz said the decision was right and inevitable and that credibility was of enormous importance in politics. And I think that many, it was in, interesting to see in the reactions many people both in his party and in other parties

congratulated Mr. Spann and his husband on their decision and the birth of their son, but politically it was felt that his position was untenable. He was a rising star, somebody who could possibly challenge the Chancellor, for example. Do you think his career is over now? Well, this is the interesting question. Certainly he was seen as, something of a threat to Chancellor Friedrich Meitz. And it's interesting, there have been other voices in Germany, major political voices saying that they don't believe his political journey is over, that he's got such talent and such clout,

that he's bound to take a leading on roll on again eventually. But certainly he had in the past made no secret of his ambitions to one day become Chancellor. So you've talked about surrogacy being illegal, and the various iterations of it that may be born to a surrogate abroad can be brought back to Germany. But how does Germany stance on surrogacy compare with its European neighbours, for example? Well, a number of other EU countries, including France, Spain and Italy banned surrogacy. And they're bans also in Bulgaria, in Malta, in Slovenia.

And other countries like Austria, for example, have implicit vans on surrogacy. And this is because of concerns about surrogacy contracts. The concerns about children being turned into objects of commercialisation and exploiting women, child trafficking, and issues like this, which have very much fueled the arguments by those who are against surrogacy. Interesting. Is there much of a debate about the law in Germany?

Well, certainly this incident has reignited the debate about the law. There was a recent poll, and it said that that poll found that 38% of people were in favor of keeping the ban in Germany. 26% said the ban should be relaxed, and 15% were in favor of lifting the ban altogether, and 20% said they didn't know. But it's interesting. Of course, all of this has as well to be seen in light of Germany's current point. political situation as a heated political atmosphere. There are major state elections coming up in the autumn in which the far-right AFD alternative for Deutscheland Party is likely to do very well.

And if Mr. Spahn had stayed in position, some analysts said that would have given a big boost to the AFD. They would have used arguments against, in terms of hypocrisy enormously. And of course, they do not like surrogacy either. And so then he had to step down. interesting. Thanks so much, Bethany Bell, joining us to tell us a little bit more about that story that

hit the headlines all around the globe and particularly, of course, in Germany. Tomorrow's Women's Hour. I'll be joined by the Mexican composer Gabriella Ortiz, ahead of her performance at the BBC proms. It will be the UK premiere of her work inspired by Mexico's 2019 Glitter Revolution when activists

covered Mexico City's security chief in pink glitter. We'll talk about the background to that. And in the year of reading, we're going to be discussing how to get children reading more over the summer. I don't know if that's something that you have come up against. Is it an easy task or a difficult one to get them off the screens and get a book in their hands or maybe on a Kindle? We'll talk about that on tomorrow's Women's Hour. I'll see you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. This cultural life from BBC Radio 4. I will never go into anything so deep like that again.

The world's leading artistic figures reveal their creative influences. Disobey, disagree, disavow. I'm John Wilson, and my recent guests have included the scopter Anish Kapoor, photographer Annie Liebervitz, the actor, Kristen Scott Thomas. It has made me good at telling stories about people have a secret suffering. And former children's laureate Frank Cottrell-Boyce. If art's got one function, it's to point to what's wonderful and say, look, this is your world, it's insane.

Listen to this cultural life. on BBC Sounds. Lives Less Ordinary is bringing you a special series of extraordinary love stories from all around the world. In India, love at first sight feels more psychotic than arranged marriage. Love stories that break all the rules.

We came into our relationship with a lot of complicated pieces. Stories that show that sometimes love is all you need. Lives Less Ordinary Love Stories from the BBC World Service. Listen now. Search for Lives Less Ordinary wherever you get your BBC

podcasts.