Woman's Hour - Tanita Tikaram, Sally Wainwright, Nature and kids with SEND

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

NB: The music in this broadcast has been removed from this podcast for rights reasons.In Sally Wainwright’s new BBC drama Riot Girls, a group of women in mid-life escape the pressures of caring for parents and kids - and the menopause - by forming a rock band. Rosalie Craig stars as the incredible singer that brings them together. Anita Rani talks to Sally and actor Rosalie about the power of female friendship. The ongoing Covid-19 inquiry is currently looking into the impact of the pandemic on children and young people, from education, health to social wellbeing. Alison Morton, the CEO of the Institute of Health Visitors, told the inquiry this week that the NHS's decision to redeploy health visitors meant that 'children were harmed' and there were 'life-ending consequences.' The BBC's Education Reporter Vanessa Clarke has been following the inquiry and joins Anita to talk about the latest news.As part of the BBC’s Nature Week, we’re encouraging you to get outside and connect with nature. Writer, advocate and skilled bike mechanic Vicky Balfour talks to Anita about how nature has become both a sanctuary and a source of strength for her as a parent of children with SEND. She describes how short moments outdoors can have a profound impact on mental and physical wellbeing, providing sensory regulation, confidence-building and resilience. Vicky also sheds light on the barriers SEND families face in accessing nature and calls for a more inclusive outdoor culture.Singer-songwriter Tanita Tikaram shot to fame in the late 1980s aged just 18 with her debut album Ancient Heart, which sold millions and featured iconic hits such as Twist in My Sobriety, (World Outside My Window) and Good Tradition. 37-years later, Tanika considers her latest album LIAR (Love Isn’t A Right), a sequel to the one that made her a household name. She talks to Anita about making this tenth album which revisits themes of identity and belonging.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

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how to stay connected with friends when life feels like a never-ending to-do list. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Tanita Ticcaram is here, and this is going to date some of us. It's been 37 years.

She was only 18 when that ancient heart album was released. Well, she's here to tell us about her new album, Lyre, and we're going to be treated to a life performance later. Also, top telly recommendation, one of our greatest screenwriters, Sally Wainwright, is back with a brilliant new TV series called Riot Women, about a group of middle-aged women who decide to form a rock band. Wait till you hear the roll call of actors, one of whom is the wonderful Rosalie Craig, who's also in the studio with Sally. Also, the latest from the COVID inquiry. This time, it's looking into what impact the pandemic had on children. And this week at the BBC, we're celebrating nature. in all its forms. I'll be speaking to one woman who'll explain the joy and freedom of getting into nature, especially with her daughter who has special educational needs. So quite simply this morning, tell me about the last time you felt the power of nature. We're experiencing a particularly stunning autumn this year. You can't fail to have noticed the vibrant colours of the leaves due to the sunlight and warm weather we've had. Does it have an impact on your mental health? How does nature help your wellbeing? Do you share it with your

family or enjoy it alone or with your dog, where do you go? I was lucky enough to be in Derbyshire on the Chatsworth Estate yesterday, hugging a 500-year-old tree. Yes, I am a certified tree hugger. It did the job for me, very grounding, and takes me away from the stress of life. Whatever works for you, get in touch with me in the usual way. 84844 is the text number. You can email the program by going to our website, or you can WhatsApp me on 0700-100-444. like to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. That text number once again, The Joy of Nature, please, 84844. But first, I want to talk now about riot women. That's the name

of Sally Wainwright's new drama starting on BBC One this Sunday. I think it's fair to say that Sally is one of our greatest television dramatists. You might know her as the creator of Happy Valley and the incredible character of Catherine Kaywood, played by Sarah Lancashire, or Last tango in Halifax or Gentleman Jack or Bailey in Scott. There are so many beloved figures that Sally Wainwright has brought to our screens and she's here today in the Woman's Hour studio with actor

Rosalie Craig who as Kitty in Riot Women turns a group of lost 50-something women into a rock band. Here's the character Beth, played by Joanna Scanlan, telling her bandmate Jess Lorraine Ashbourne that she's finally found

their singer. I am definitely still in. Good. Right, so we're going to meet on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I figured that I'd work for you because you said you'd never go out. I'm going to work on, smoke on the water, because I can already do that on the drums. Waterloo and Layla, how about that? Perfect. That's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, well, as long as we can all agree, yeah.

In other news, the other news is that I have found as a singer, a proper singer. Rosalie, Sally, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. So much. You've got lungs. You've got pipes, yeah. How satisfying was it to do that, sing that? Oh, what, Sing is Kitty?

Yeah. Oh, I mean, talk about cathartic, but to be asked to do something like that is exceptional. And to play a character like that is just phenomenal. Well, thank you to Sally. We will come to the character. Thank you to Sally for creating this, because I watched the first episode

and was instantly tempted to press play on the second one. But had that thing where I just thought, well, I also thought I want to save it. I actually want to experience this. I don't want it to run out to. quickly. When you were last here on Woman's Hour, Sally, in 2022, you told us that your next project would look into more depth at women of a certain age. So what made you want to write about them forming a rockland? It's very personal to me this. It's kind, as it is to say,

autobiographical, but it's very personal. So it's a lot about what I was going through at what Tamsin very eloquently called the middle squeeze, mid-life. So it's, I, I, I, about 10 years ago I started to think about doing this. I'd want to write about a rock band since I was 13 when I saw rock follies on telly, which is the show that it just made me want to write it. At 13, I saw that show and thought, that's what I want to do. I want to write television. So ever since then, I've wanted to write about a female, another female rock band. I wanted to do my own tribute to rock follies. And then about 10 years ago, I was working on, I had written and directed a drama about the Brontes.

And at around that time, I was starting to think about this. And at around that time, my mum started to develop dementia. And I felt I was being pulled in so many different directions. I still had two boys at home, one just about to go off to university, the one thinking about what he was going to do education-wise. So a lot of, you know, being needed there. And I felt I was being pulled in lots of different directions. You know, that adage about, you know, if something needs to do it,

ask a busy woman. I was that woman who just was being expected. Lots of, in a good way. You're often at the height of your career, that kind of thing. And so you've been pulled in all sorts of directions and balancing a huge amount of things. And in the middle of that, the menopause started, and I didn't kind of realise what it was to begin with,

because it's not all hot flushes. It's forgetting people's names and forgetting what comes next, and brain fog and low mood, starting to feel, after the thing of being 40 where you sort of finally feel you know who you are, it's an unexpected thing happens where you kind of start to get sort of low self-esteem that you don't expect at that.

No one really knows what's happening. It kind of creeps up on it. Yeah. So I did, I wanted to write about that, particularly the experience with my mum, having to deal with someone with dementia who lives five hours away in Bridlington, having to drive up and down, trying to direct a film at the same time,

looking after, you know, your home and that kind of thing. It just seemed well worth writing about. And I say in the middle of that, the menopause starts to kick in. And you start to feel like everybody wants you and in the middle of that you're disappearing. So how did you cope with it?

I was saying to Rosie earlier, I kind of forgot that I've forgotten how I coped with it. You just cope with it. And looking back, I don't know how I coped with it, but you just do, you just get on with it. So for me, writing and write with him has kind of been therapy. Therapy, it's been writing about that.

but I wanted to find a way and it's just about midlife you know menopause is just an aspect of that and I wanted to find a way of writing about this part of your life in a way that was uplifting and engaging and interesting

and that wouldn't make people think oh that's about middle age women I'm not going to watch that it's not it's about women who find something very creative and very engaging to do together and how it changes their lives you found it cathartic writing

I promise you even after the first episode women watching it, women of a certain age, you are going to find it cathartic. I really hope they do. Anyway, yeah, definitely. I want to bring you in, Rosalie, because your character Kitty, what an opening scene you get. I'm not going to give any spoilers away. But let's just put it this way. Your life's a bit chaotic.

You're very messy. And these are all the things. When you burst onto the scenes, and by the way, the soundtrack is also excellent. Thank you. We see you in a supermarket. You are completely drunk. kind of out of control, you're downing bottles of vodka, you're taking pills, all sorts is happening.

But you are performing and being all the things that as women we're told to keep to ourselves because otherwise they will bring great shame. But your character, when we see her, couldn't care less, maybe it's something about me, but I just loved that attitude. I mean, I couldn't agree more, but Kitty has, you know, Sally constructed somebody

who doesn't have a filter. And that's partly because of what she's been through in life and being sort of the victim of aggression. She faces the world like that with two, and especially you know she exorcises herself through the use of song which was really brilliant to do but i mean that was that alone that was incredible to film that wasn't it we did it over about what three days three separate sundays oh three separate sundays yeah and night shoots weren't they yeah tell us about kitty tell me about her character um i mean kitty's a one-off

but i think she is um you know as i said she's she's had a very turbulent past and i think that she's the victim of a lot of microaggression from men or she's objectified by them and she often sort of falls into a very bad place quite easily by this objectifying that she becomes the victim of. But although the brilliant thing is that we found when constructing, how do you construct a kitty

is the fact that she will not be, she will not be victimized, you know, she won't. She never feel sorry for herself. Exactly, that's it, yeah. And maybe that's what I picked up on. She just didn't care. She was kind of, so when you say constructing Kitty, so did you work on Kitty together? Yeah, we did.

When Rosalie was cast, I think you rang me up and said, and you were just on the phone for hours. Yeah, we were, we were on the phone for hours, yeah. I couldn't believe it. That was just checking she'd give me the job. We don't get a lot of time to rehearse in telly, traditionally. If you've got a six-hour series, normally you get two days for the whole thing, for the entire cast. So you have to choose really carefully who you work. with and I don't like that and I always ask for a lot more time to rehearse so do you get it

yes because it's sally well drama republic we're really brilliant about it because they knew that's how i wanted to work and i knew it was i rosy wanted to work so we got together over a period of any number of days and we just went through the script in great detail and then we had two days with joanna going through all kitty and beth's scenes because they're the kind of the backbone of the series that they're two very different women who find this extraordinary connection. You know, they're a very unlikely double act, but they find great friendship and great creativity together. Anyway, so we did rehearse intensely over separate days, but many days,

and then two days with Joanna. And it was, it's a really useful, I find it really exciting, the process of, you know, like working on the, the voice, you know, deciding what her voice is going to be, you know, because it's a slightly lower register to your natural voice. And thinking about Kitty's physicality, the fact that she's always aggressive, she's always going to hit out before anybody can hit back at her. So she's got an extraordinary energy.

I mean, we talked about, you know, whenever she enters, you know, we talked about great entrance, she always brings her own climate in with her, you know. Wonderful. She's got this massive, she's a massive ball of initially destructive, energy. The interesting thing is in episode one, she has a fight with everybody she meets. She has a fight in the supermarket with Tams and Greg. Yes, who's a police officer. She has a fight with

a jaguar later on. Yeah, yeah. And then Beth finds her, Beth sees her, and all Beth sees her in her is a talent. Joanna's talent. She doesn't see any of the chaos. Yeah. And it's such a nurturing thing for Kitty to have this woman who just sees the good in her and the talent.

And Kitty's never had that. She's never had that what's the words? Affirmation, never. And being seen, and particularly by an older woman. Maybe that felt for me like a very important thing. I just need to do a roll call of names, by the way, because you've mentioned a few. In Riot Women, you've got Tamsingreeg, Joanna Scanlon,

Tar Jatwell, Lorraine Ashbourne, to name a few. I mean... Maybe Bulmore. Chandipo. Please. Come on. What was it like just being on set together? And also playing these characters.

What went through my mind is I wonder what conversations happening behind the scenes amongst you all. It was that part is, I was just saying to Sally this morning, it was intoxicating. We saw each other this week because we were at the Premier in Hebden Bridge. And there's nothing like all of us being in a unit together. And the conversations even just coming back to London on the train yesterday, they're not only life affirming, but you are able, I think what you were saying about Beth and Kitty, you're able to see yourself in a different light. if someone's looking at you in a different way

or the female gaze gives you hope or I certainly was felt incredibly lucky to be around not just such incredible actresses but also people. I mean, the ability for women to change one another by conversation is astonishing. And that's what we see in this, brilliantly. It's female solidarity through conversation

but also creativity. Exactly. I just want to pick up on a few things that come up And in the first scene, we see Joanna Scanlan's character, who is a teacher. And she talks about feeling invisible. Tell us more. So Joanna's characters that are very low ebb when we first meet her. And, well, it goes back to what we were saying earlier, actually.

She rescues Kitty, but Kitty rescues Beth as well. I mean, she's her lowest. She's a lowest. She's somebody who's got a lot to give. she's somebody who's got a lot of love to give and nobody's around for her to love anymore and then Kitty walks into her life and Kitty needs all the support she can get

emotionally and psychologically but what Kitty gives Beth is it's kind of someone to love isn't it? Yeah absolutely and Kitty really responds to that so they kind of rescue each other because they're both in very dark places at the show starts but then what comes out of it

which is really beautiful is Beth can play the piano and Kitty can sing and they get drunk one night and they start to talk about Beth's husband and she Beth refers to a few things that he said in arguments

and they just spontaneously turn it into a song and the next day when Beth comes home from work Kitty's actually turned it into a real song that they perform and all the songs are to do with female experience that song is called you just like your mother because this is his favourite way of winning an argument is to put her down by saying

you're just like your mother. And then in episode four, the song that they've written, they're going to sing Waterloo for the talent contest and they end up singing what we've called the menopause song, but it's actually called Seeing Red. And they do it spontaneous. They're not going to do it till the last second. And then they go on and perform.

And seeing Red, you don't shy away from menopause and periods and all womanly body functions. I mean, we see you in the first episode, sleeping on a sofa, and we see you bleeding. Absolutely. I mean, so it's so important to see. see it, isn't it? Because we all go through it and whether or not we're having conversations about it

or not. The fact that Sally's brave enough to write that into a script and you to have that challenge as a character or sorry. No, no, no, carry on. A character or an actress is astonishing and it's important for it to be out there. Yeah.

And we know that you are, you know a thing or two about subversion yourself because you are a West End superstar. I'm right. Yes. You've played Bobby in Stephen Sondheim's company and Bobby is originally a male character and you played Bobby as a woman. I did. That was incredible. I think you get these chances and they're quite spread apart as an actor but you get these bits of gold. I mean I don't think I'd be sat here

with Sally if you hadn't seen me in that way. No I mean we're so lucky to have Rosie playing Kitty. I honestly believe nobody else on the planet could have played Kitty on. Did you know straight away? Well I saw Rosie in company in the West End. And when I was, working on the, I think I'd written the first episode of Riot Women, and I saw you in a TV show and I thought, oh my God, I've got to get that woman to play Kitty. Brilliant. That's crazy. Was it a no-brainer for you when Sally Wayne, right picks up the phone?

I mean, a no-brainer. I was terrified, honestly, because I just thought, having the opportunity to meet Sally, if I thought, if I thought for one minute that I was going to leave that room and it didn't work out, I'd rather have never had that opportunity because it would have been so gutting. Rosie came in and she had to sing as part of the audition, Violet, by Courtney Love's song. And it was just, it was extraordinary. It was the most extraordinary audition I've ever seen. She was, just being in a room with Rosie singing is just extraordinary.

Yes. And then the script, you know, she nailed it. It was like, when you left the room, I was like, oh my God, did that? I'm going to put it out there. Come back and sing for us sometime. I would love to. We've got piano. In fact, stick around, come back, Tina's singing.

You can get involved. It's interesting that I was really keen that the music should be live in the show because I really wanted our women to learn their own instruments. I really didn't want it to look like they were miming. And I really wanted as much as we could for it to be live. And ultimately I found out in post-production that it couldn't be because you edit pictures. But they all rehearsed in. They did, yeah.

But there are a couple of incidents in the show where it is live and it is really Rosie singing live. And one of them is where she sings just like your mother. it's Beth and Kitty at the piano together and it's just so beautiful and then in episode three we were performing a scene or rehearsing a scene and when we broke

to set cameras up and stuff Rosie sat down at the piano at Beth's house and started noodling and she started singing this Case of You song and I forgot Joanie Mitchell oh my god I could have forgotten It's all right, sorry, we know.

She's like, we start noodling on the piano and singing. I was like, because when Rosie starts singing it, it's like mesmerising me, and you're just standing there and, oh my God, I said, that's amazing, that's beautiful. And it wasn't in the script, but we decided to film it. Brilliant. Because it really reflected the stage kitty was at at this, again, a dark moment at the beginning of episode 3. And we didn't know if he'd get permission to use it. Joni Mitchell historically doesn't give permission to do this.

and we... Did you hear it? Well, we wrote her and explained the character and the situation and she gave us permission to use it. Fantastic. Unbelievable. Wow. It's one of the most extraordinary things.

I think the single most extraordinary thing I've ever shot. Oh my goodness. Wow, that is high praise. Oh my God, is it ever. Thank you for sharing that anecdote with us, actually. Because when we watch episode three, we will know and to hear that that's the single most extraordinary thing. Beautiful.

So many dreams ticked. It's been a privilege to have you both in here. And, you know, you talk about the character, Joanna Scanlan's character talks about feeling invisible, but you make women of a certain age visible. And also you put West Yorkshire on the map as well. So forever eternally grateful Sally Wainwright, Sally and Rosalie. Thank you so much. So much. Lovely to talk to you.

And Riot Women starts this Sunday, oh, it's going to be good. BBC 1. That's the 12th of October at 9pm. Now, the ongoing COVID inquiry is currently looking into the impact of the pandemic on children and young people from education health to social well-being. Alison Morton, the CEO of the Institute of Health Visitors, told the inquiry this week that the NHS's decision to redeploy health visitors meant that children were harmed and there were life-ending consequences. Well, the BBC's education reporter Vanessa Clark has been following the inquiry and joins me now. Morning, Vanessa. So what happened with regards to the health visitors? Yeah, it was interesting. So the last seven phases I've looked at really important things like PPE in hospitals and vaccines.

This phase of the inquiry is looking specifically at young people and children and the impact. And yesterday it came out that there was a decision made by the NHS to redeploy health visitors during the pandemic. Now, obviously, you know, beds needed to be freed up in hospitals and more nurses were needed for critical care, you know, really important issues during the pandemic. But it emerged that some health visitors were sent to, yes, to critical care units, but others were doing admin or sending parcels. And actually, Alison Morton, who is the CEO of the Institute of Health Visiting, was very clear this was a flawed decision and that children were harmed as a result. And these health visitors should have been on their own front line looking after families at the time. She said

that's what they were needed and, you know, they are a very important aspect of having eyes on the ground. Now, the NHS was also there, the chief nursing officer for England also spoken. You know, he spoke about the NHS dealing with a very new virus, decisions being made very quickly, staff needing to be freed up to help with other services and, you know, that virtual appointments were allowed when it came to health visitors as well. But Alison Morton was very clear that actually this decision shouldn't have been made and that they needed to be going into people's houses and that as a direct result that some children obviously had paid the highest price.

Well, let's talk about that because there were high profile cases of children being killed by their guardians. What else has been discovered about this? Yeah, so I think we all remember the names. like Starr Hobson and Arthur, Libby Joe Hughes, who were both killed by their guardians during the pandemic. Now, the inquiry yesterday was shown research by the child safeguarding review practice panels,

which showed really that COVID adaptions, such as virtual visits as opposed to home visits, they were factors in some of these deaths. And, you know, Ms. Morton was saying that we let families down. These are desperately sad cases. And I think the purpose of this inquire is to look at some of the decisions that were made and decide actually if we are going to go through this at some points again, should some decisions like that be ring fenced or should health

visitors be ring fenced should some decisions by social workers be slightly changed. So we're actually going to hear directly from social workers next week. So we'll hear a little bit more about that. But I think it's just interesting. It's one of the aspects of the pandemic that we probably haven't heard as much about. And that's really what this phase of the inquiry is trying to grasp. And what have been the other areas covered this week? This week, we've still heard a lot about school closures, well, partial closures and the decisions around that.

So I think it's really interesting that there's a difference of opinion as well. So you have Sir Gavin Williamson, who was saying that, yes, it was a mad 24 hours in March 2020, when the government really had made a decision not to close schools up until the very last minute. So, you know, there was only a day to make, that planning went into that. So we've had a number of head teachers this week

who have said that those decisions should have been made earlier. Planning should have went into it and they came very quickly. I think people will remember in January 2021, schools closed again. And there's a very big difference in opinion between if that should have happened or not. So Sir Gavin Williamson says that actually it was not required.

Boris Johnson said that it definitely was. And Baroness Anne Longfield, you told them that adults were given priority over children, said that government should give a formal apology to all children for the damage they've done to their education. Yeah, she did. She said that, you know, children were not prioritised, you know, pubs, shops, theme parks all opened fully before schools and that the lead-up was quite chaotic. And there was nobody that people like her could go to and say, look, I think this is a real problem, that it was all a bit chaotic.

Now look, this is all that has the benefit of Hines side. These were, you know, scary times. Decisions were made very quickly. But this is looking at whether the decisions were made in the best interest of children. We've just had the schedule for next week. So this is a first for you. But Sir Gavin Williamson will actually be on the stand on Tuesday. So we'll hear a little bit more about that.

Yeah, as you said, two weeks left of this inquiry. What are you expecting them to cover? I think we'll hear a little bit more about online. There's two aspects of online. There's the digital divide. In other words, children who did not have access to devices and who weren't able to do the remote education that their schools were asking them to do.

There was a big push to actually get computers and phones out to people. But I think we'll hear a bit more about how that worked. And the disadvantaged gap is actually growing at the moment. So that's still a major issue. But also the amount of time children were spending online. We've heard they were spending up to 19, 20 hours a day, which is a huge amount of time. And actually, at that time, we've heard from offcom this week. And they were saying they weren't the regulator of video sharing platforms.

So there was no oversight of that. So I think we'll hear more about, you know, the mental health concerns around children and, you know, the impacts that were still seen today because of that. Yeah, what are people saying as being the psychological impact on children? I think the main thing that experts are saying was they were not giving. a voice and they were overlooked. So I think one of the standout stories that I thought was really interesting was they call it the snowman story. And basically, I think everyone will remember, we were all given an hour of exercise at the beginning of the pandemic in lockdown. So

we were able to go for a run or a cycle. But these were very adult activities. So it was the story of two boys who went out to play in the snow in January 2021 when this room was in place. And they were told off by two policemen because of this and they were sent inside. Now, their dad says they still have a lot of mental scarring from that because they felt they were doing something wrong. And decisions like you have one hour of exercise were made in a very adult way. And actually children needed to be prioritised in a different way, even though, you know, they weren't being affected by the virus as much. The decisions were still impacting them greatly. Okay. So I think that's, yeah, one thing that stood out for me. Yeah, we will definitely be coming.

back to this, but for now, BBC's Education reporter, Vanessa Clark, thank you for that. Now, we ask the Department of Health for their response, but we've yet to hear back from them, and the Department of Education provided this statement. We know there will be lessons to be learned from the pandemic, and we're committed to learning from the COVID inquiry's findings, which will play a key role in informing the government's planning and preparations for the future. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on

really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. number. I started the program by asking you how nature responds, how you respond to nature and what it does for you. I'm going to read out a couple of your messages. Elena says, I've been studying horticulture for the past three years and working part-time as a gardener. I'm approaching 40 and this has been a complete career change. Being outdoors every day has transformed my physical health, mental well-being and outlook. I see the world differently and appreciate like never before the beauty of nature and changing seasons. I feel grounded, connected and content. And another message here is saying the joy of

Nature, it's what saved me during a very difficult time in my life and continues to do so every day. After losing my mother 13 years ago, nature and creativity was the thing I was drawn to. I found solace in nature because it didn't expect anything from me. Tree hugging is absolutely the best once you stop worrying about what others think. Totally agree. As will our next guest. Today, we're encouraging you to get outside and connect with nature as part of the BBC's Nature Week. For writer and advocates and skilled bike mechanic, Vicky Balfour, Nature has become.

both a sanctuary and a source of strength in her journey as a parent of a child with special educational needs and disabilities or send. She explores how small, accessible moments outdoors can have a profound impact on the mental and physical well-being of both children and parents. Good morning, Vicki. Welcome to the program. So what does being outdoors mean to you? Oh, it essentially just means freedom and joy. I think you can really sort of take it back to that. it's that ability like one of the people who called in is it's being in a space where nothing is expected of you but also where you can carve out just a little bit of time for you and you

also you remember that you are just you are part of a bigger organisation in terms of the universe and so on you are basically you're very very small and that's fine you uh yeah and how has your relationship specifically um with the outdoors evolve since becoming a parent? Yes, I think it took a while. We were, like many people, we were living in London when we first had children and both our children had quite complex needs.

And at that point, getting into nature was incredibly hard. We had parks and that was lovely, but we couldn't, we didn't, it wasn't until years later that we discovered cycling and we were living in Kent by that point. and actually we found a way that worked for us. So we went through all the sort of crazy things of trying to take a massive mountain buggy on walks and sort of, yeah, finding styles and so on

and that didn't work. But it's, yeah, it's since we've discovered cycling and that's something that actually is a family with a child with disabilities, we can do. And that's incredible to be able to feel like normal, regular families. Yeah, so it's, yeah. Well, tell us about your daughter, Cece. just the impact of being able to get outside into nature has had on her.

Yes, so Cece is quite literally a force of nature. She's joyful. Wonderful. She's amazing. So nature, being out in nature with her gives her a chance to actually build her own identity. She is, you don't, with people with learning disabilities, there is a lack of role models. And that's something that's a real shame. and it's something that we work to try and change

because actually you need to be able to see yourself in the outdoors she's been able to become part of a community of cycling she leads for the new Forest Off Road Club she and her friend Pipp a part of something called outdoors is for everyone and they're showing that actually you as a person with learning disabilities you've got a ride and you've got a place in nature and it's part of who you are So she's able to, when we go cycling, she's able to test her resilience, test her skills, develop her skills and really sense that she is an individual.

She's not just sort of directed in a way that works. I mean, so often people and children with learning disabilities, they have to sort of fit into organized groups and organized events. And that really takes away your sense of self, whereas if you are able to go into nature, go for a walk, go for a cycle, meet up with your friends, do things like that, you retain your sense of self and you're able to help each other and be a role model. But access to the outdoors isn't equal. So what factors do you have to take into account before you decide that a cycle route is suitable for CC and the rest of the family? Yes. Well, OS maps are a great help. We love an OS map.

And it's, but yeah, essentially we look for bridalways. I mean, I think for us, traffic free is a really significant part of that. Forestry England and interestingly, the National Trust, both organisations that are beginning to really embrace this and will put in place the changing facilities. So changing places, toilets, which are easy to use. They'll often have multi-surface, sort of multi-weather, multi-use surface. loops which are sort of probably only about seven kilometres but that's perfect because when you go really slowly you don't want to go that far but yes so somewhere with easy parking

with food with lose and with an obvious loop with probably a sort of a sort of a quick escape if it all goes slightly pear shaped and you have a meltdown so preparation preparation yeah it is yes no carry on no I was just going to say the other thing recently we were on holiday and we took a bridal way from from the campsite to a nearby village and actually it turned out we were in suffolk and we forgot that of course suffolk is essentially a giant sandpit it's glorious very pretty one yeah beautiful sandpit um and we had a lot of emergency stops from cecy on her recumbent trike and she but actually i learned and she learned that if we just pause for a moment and don't engage in that anxiety and that melancholy and that melancholy.

she was then able to carry on and move forward so it's a balance between preparation but also giving them giving individuals a chance to test their skills and build that resilience like we all need yeah yeah and many parents of children with special educational needs as you know and as lots of our listeners know because we talk about it on this program a lot face significant challenges so how can time in nature help ease those pressures for both the child and the parent oh it It's, I think, from my experience, it's just, it so, it soothes you, it, it, it sort of regulates your, your nervous system. But more than that, it just takes you away from the home. It's so hard.

Sometimes for families like ours, just getting out the front door is difficult. So if you can get out the front door and get to a place that doesn't have stimulation, doesn't have other cars, doesn't have huge crowds, that has things that you've, can look at you can look at the birds you can look at the trees look at the plants distract with nature and distract and sort of observe what's changing and as a parent um carer we parent carers are lost we we aren't recognized we're not valued sufficiently by society um and so you lose a lot of your sense of self in terms of you don't have a big career you don't have necessarily income So if you're able to take that time And just like, so for example, if I've got to go to the dentist or the GP

I'll often cycle and I'll go via the woods So that I feel I've just stolen a little bit of time for me So I've done mature But I've also had a bit of an escape and a bit of an adventure There might be people listening to this Who feel very apprehensive about going into nature For various reasons, maybe they don't feel that those spaces Are for them or welcoming, not just send families,

underrepresented communities, what advice would you give to people or parents who might feel isolated or overwhelmed or apprehensive about getting out there? First of all, you are welcome and its nature is for all of us and you absolutely have a place in it. Secondly, start small and start really, have huge amounts of compassion. Take whatever support you need, whether that's tea and cake, a flask or a device, whatever, and don't have any expectations, really. And then finally, there are organisations out there. We're part of outdoors is for everyone, which is for representing families with learning

disabilities, and we share and talk about our experiences. And we're actually having a family's get-together in a few weeks up in North Yorkshire to go climbing and paddling together, which will be amazing. But there's also all the elements, which is another CIC, a group that represents all of us who don't particularly have a voice in nature and in the outdoors. And these are places where you might be able to find people who look like you, feel like you, have experiences like you, and who are there to welcome you. But yes, and my sort of overriding thing is always to say, just go into it with kindness to yourself, no expectations and just take little steps. You can eat an elephant one mouthful at a time. That's the way to do it.

That's the quote of the week right there. Vicky, thank you so much for joining me this morning. To find out more about outdoor inspiration, go to BBC.co.com. uk slash nature week. I'm going to read out a couple more of your messages. The joy of nature for me is the birds singing on a sunny morning, my golden retriever following the sense of new smells as we walk

and not a single other person around. Blue sky helps too. Where in the world is that? I live in East London. I've spent two weeks at home recovering from an operation. Nature has really helped to ground and comfort me. Two large trees on our estate that I can see from our house are changing colour every day and the sun shining on them brings such joy all week. A robin has been chirping outside our house and I feel like I have a little friend.

Even in the depths of the capital city, nature is all around. It is and you just have to notice it. What beautiful messages you're sending me this morning. Keep them coming in. Now to my next guest A little laugh I thought was a deep breath Wasn't it, Tuna?

We're just going to take a step back in time for a moment to remind people of this There's a good tradition of love and hate Staying by the fireside Another rain may fall Your father's calling you You still feel safe So tell me if you want to see

A world outside window A world outside your window isn't free Look my eyes are just hollow grams Look your love has drawn right from my hands From my hands you know you'll never be More than twist in my sobriety More than twist in my sobriety

Absolutely Timeless classics from singer, songwriter Tanita Ticcaram, who shot to fame in the late 80s, age just 18, with her debut album, Ancient Heart, which sold millions. She achieved international success with iconic hits, such as Twist in My Sobriety, World Outside Your Window, and Good Tradition. While 37 years later, Tanita considers her latest, it's her 10th album, Liar, that stands for Love Isn't a Right,

a sequel to the one that made her a household name. It's released tomorrow. And in a short while, she's going to perform a track from it live. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, hi, Anita. Thank you for having me. What was it like hearing the old tracks? Very fruity.

I mean, it's very young. But, yeah, they sound good. Can you believe it's been nearly 40 years since Ancient Heart? Yes. I think, yeah, I was a teenager. I just had this kind of wild success with that record. But, yeah, I can feel. that I'm 56.

May I say, I've been listening to the new album all week and it is just spectacular. I've been shouting about it to everybody. Oh, man. Oh, woman. Yeah, I get it. You can say what? You can say men or woman.

Either works for me. That gives me great joy. Thank you. Tell me about the meaning behind the album. Why have you called it liar? Love isn't a right. So love isn't a right is actually a song, one of the covers on the song.

There are two covers. There's one, Nina Simone, and there's this song by Molly Drake, who was the mother of Nick Drake. And it's a song, it wouldn't have been recorded. It would have been recorded very rudimentarily in a kitchen or something. But this song seemed to resonate with us today. And when we're recording it, my violinist Helen said,

that's an acronym of liar. And there are themes on the album which talk about our, current culture of people lying with impunity and politically there seems to be just a huge culture of disinformation. So it was a little bit alluding to that and also play playfully I hope because like I don't know, Serge Gansbo, Chetem Juan on Plu, something like that. So it's contradictory. Love isn't a right. Well, liar love isn't a right. That kind of idea that now we're talking very much about who is allowed to have rights and how easily they can be taken away from us and that some people are worthy of them and other people are not.

So that's just kind of a little bit of the undercurrent of the album. It's the undercurrent, the right word. It's a little bubbling in the album, through the album. Yeah, not only is it beautiful music. It is a lot to think about in it. You mentioned Helen there. We need to talk about her as you brought her up. Yeah.

This is violinist Helen O'Hara known for Dexie's Midnight Runners. Yeah. She played on their early hits. And she's also on this record. Yes, but she stepped away for 20 years. I know. She has, I don't understand this in terms of muscle memory, how a musician can stop. I mean, she physically stopped playing the violin for 20 years. But she's playing better than ever. And you can hear her beautiful, beautiful phrasing on the new album. How did you come together then? What did you? How did we come back together? She just contacted my manager for a cup of tea. She said, is Tanita around? Does she want to meet up? And we just met each other. And when I knew her, when I was younger, I think I was much more immature and she just seemed much like an adult to me

but now obviously with time we're just in the same, we're the same so we just had a great connection and I said would you like to start playing again with me so yeah and she's doing really great she plays with Tim Burgess from the charlatans as well so it's been kind of a rebirth for her wonderful for both of you I guess

you know you've said that this is a sense of identity in belonging that's been involved between the two albums. Yeah. How has that change from 18 to 56? I think when you're a teenager, your sense of belonging is very much more personal about how you fit into things. And now as I'm older,

I feel that my sense of myself is much more grounded in it. But the world I'm living in is kind of its sense of itself is crumbling. And it's searching for. its identity and whether it believes in the values that I believe it or whether it's going to go in a much a darker place. And I think this is the questions that we're all kind of facing at the moment and wondering about political things are very bewildering at the moment. So I think as an artist it's your duty to kind of respond to the time you live in as well.

And so that was really the task I set with this record. even though it's a very personal language, I hope that it's in a political world that you can hear some of these songs. Yeah, you've said that you think of albums as a relationship with the listener. I've definitely been in a relationship with your new album this week.

Oh, that is wonderful. What kind of relationship do you hope that this album builds? Well, I hope that first people are really charmed by the sound because there's a very, very special sound to the record I worked with a very talented producer Andy Monaghan from the Scottish band, Frighton Rabbit. And he has a much more indie background. And then we were working with acoustic instruments like Helen's violin, Zosja's Jagadinsky, who's going to play with me now, her cello, and the accordion.

And that can make a really big, almost like chamber pop sound. So, yeah, politics, but pop music. Oh, yeah. I know, which is a perfect combination. Yeah, exactly. I've got to talk about take you back in time. When you arrived on the scene, you were still doing your A-levels. You were so different to all the other sort of pop stars at the time, Kylie and Tiffany.

And the media described you as an old soul, even described you as the humorless bard of Basingstoke. Someone described yours. Not fair at all. Bards of Basingstoke. How do you look back on these portrayals? you feel misunderstood? How did you feel? Where did you feel you fitted in? I think when you're, if I'm honest, I think when you're 18 and you're quite bookish and quite nerdy, people can be a little bit patronising about, and I think young people are

really curious and intellectually curious. So that was just what I was like. I was just kind of. You were so different to everybody else, though. That's what struck me. For me, you were so important to have you there in my radio and on TV. It was really important to have you. have you as part of that landscape, Anita. I just want to take the opportunity to say that to you. Then I don't need to say anything. That's such a lovely thing to say. I don't know.

I just love singer-songwriters and that was kind of, I hope that I was following in that kind of tradition. And, yeah, I hope to continue. And you got into singing off from replying to an ad in the back of a paper. Yeah, I was kind of, I didn't know how you started. And I saw this, like, Advert classified advert in the back of a music magazine And it was just an open call for tapes

And then I sent my tape in It happened to be the acoustic room at the Mean Fiddler The Mean Fiddler itself was a very important venue And even though there were just three people in the audience Two of them were really important So you never know who could be watching you That's all I can say to any young person starting out in music

You could be playing to a kind of half-empty room and there might be somebody who could change your life. So you've got to just turn up, show up. Show up and learn your craft and sing your songs. Tanita, that was so beautiful. That was icy a morning. with Zerzynsha Ya Gozynska. Come and join me here.

Beautiful. How was that? Oh, quite, I was really nervous. No, it was beautiful. Tell us about that song. Oh, well, I was very, you know, the George Floyd trials were quite upsetting to watch. And it was just the constant brutality of the state.

and watching this American history of violence against black people which is so much a part of their history and to see that it doesn't end. And I just was thinking of all the people who have the courage to see something better and to fight for change. I find that very, very moving and very, very inspiring. Well, the album is moving and inspiring and it's been wonderful to have you in. And I know you're going on tour as well.

Well, Tanita's performing live shows in Europe and the UK, including at the Royal Festival Hall in the 15th of November. And Tanita's album is called Liar and it's wonderful. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to us, Tanita Tickram. Thank you. And thanks to all of you for getting in touch. Mary says, I'm off to get lots of nature in Shetland, wild and windy and so therapeutic. Well, enjoy it and enjoy the rest of your day. I'll be back tomorrow.

That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Nature. Hello. Hello. And welcome to NatureBang. I'm Becky Ripley. I'm Emily Knight. And in this series from BBC Radio 4, we look to the natural world to answer some of life's big questions. Like, how can a brainless slime mold help us solve complex mapping problems? And what can an octopus teach us about the relationship between mind and body?

It really stretches your understanding of consciousness. With the help of evolutionary biologists. I'm actually always very comfortable comparing. us to other species. Philosophers. You never really know what it could be like to be another creature. And Spongologists. Is that your job title? Are you a Spongologist?

Well, I am in certain spheres. It's science meets storytelling, with a philosophical twist. It really gets at a heart of free will and what it means to be you. So if you want to find out more about yourself via cockatoos that dance, frogs that freeze, and single cell amoebas that design border policies, subscribe to NatureBang. From BBC Radio 4, available on BBC Sounds. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships.

It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother.

Love Me, available now wherever you get your podcasts.