Woman's Hour - Teachers' strike, Midwife Leah Hazard on the womb, Sexual violence in Ukraine, Best performance by a jumper

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

As teachers strike again over pay this week we talk to the BBC's Education Editor Branwen Jeffreys. As awards season continues we want to know - who should win best performance by a jumper? Mark Darcey’s reindeer jumper? Cameron Diaz’s knitwear in The Holiday? Fashion journalist Naomi Pike talks to Woman’s Hour about the most iconic knitwear in film - and we also hear from the creator of the most talked about jumpers of the moment. Delia Barry is 83 and personally knitted the jumpers you can see in the Oscar-nominated movie ‘Banshees of Inisherin’. She tells Nuala how she came to knit for films, and what it’s like to be the woman behind the new ‘it’ jumper. The laws surrounding fertility treatment and embryo research in the UK have remained largely unchanged for thirty years. Today a new consultation being held by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) opens. They want to hear from people who have been impacted by fertility treatment. Julia Chain, chair of the HFEA, joins Nuala. There have been accusations of Russian soldiers using sexual violence as a weapon of war during the current conflict in Ukraine. Progress is being made to bring the perpetrators to justice, but it’s slow. Nuala is joined by Anna Mykytenko, senior legal advisor to Global Rights Compliance, and Anna Orel, who works for the Andreev Foundation. In her new book Womb - The Inside Story of Where We All Began NHS midwife Leah Hazard seeks to explore the organ she describes as “woefully under-researched and misunderstood”. She shares with Nuala what she has learnt from looking into the womb’s past, present and possible future. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Studio Manager: Gayl Gordon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Good to have your company. Well, as you were hearing in the news bulletin, thousands of teachers are on strike this week across England, Wales and Scotland. So we'll catch up with our BBC education editor, who's in Newcastle right now at a striker's breakfast to hear about the state of negotiations. Now, if you're a parent affected by the strikes, we want to hear about their impact on you today.

Please text us 84844. Also today, WOM, the inside story of where it all began. Well, I learned so much reading this book from the basics about the size and shape of the uterus to the amazing feats that it is capable of. That is in addition to gestating a child

it is a miraculous organ says the midwife who wrote it but also misunderstood. So understanding the womb properly could potentially help with fertility issues, avoid some miscarriages and also improve women's health all round. So that is coming up. And best performance by a jumper in a film.

Do you have a favourite? Well, the Banshees of Inishere had some impressive knitwear on the big screen playing a leading role. We're going to speak to the woman who's behind the knitting needles that created them. I want to know if you have a favourite jumper from the silver screen.

And you know what? I'll even expand it to TV jumpers as well. So if you have a favourite from a show, do send it in. You can text the programme. Again, that number is 84844.

Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. And instead, if you would prefer

a WhatsApp message or a voice note to get in touch, that number is 03700 100 444. But first, to that more disruption this week that is taking place as teachers strike over pay. Members of the National Education Union are on strike in the north and the northwest of England, also Yorkshire and Humber.

And it marks the beginning of three consecutive days of regional action in England. That has turned to Scotland. The Educational Institute of Scotland and two other unions walk out again today and tomorrow while schools in Wales will strike on the 2nd of March. So all in quick succession. Let's get the latest on the strike action. I am joined by the BBC's Education Editor

Branwen Jeffreys, currently attending an NEU, National Education Union, Strikers Breakfast in the city of Newcastle. Good to have you with us, Branwen. Tell us a little bit about what is happening where you are. Forgive me, Branwen, I think the line might be going in a little. Teachers are beginning to arrive from their picket lines around Newcastle as they start to gather for the rally happening later today.

But they will be joined by colleagues coming from as far afield as Cumbria and across the whole of the north of the borders area as well as they come together to march on their pay dispute about the five percent pay offer that has been made this year in England to most teachers. So with that and the people that are around you Branwen tell us a little about what they're telling you, why they are striking specifically. Well, one very big issue, although pay is the key one that they are on, is when you talk to teachers, it's about the work-life balance. It's the work...

Branwen, I'm so sorry to do this, but I'm afraid that the line is just breaking up a little bit too much for our listeners to be able to hear what you're saying that well. So what I'd like to do is that we will try and reconnect with you instead

and be able to hear a little bit more about the striking teachers. I'm sorry about that. I apologise to our listeners, but we will try and reconnect with Branwen. But what I am going to move on to instead is something

that I'm wearing, something that my guest opposite me is also wearing, because as award seasons continue, we want to know who should win best performance by a jumper. Could it be Mark Darcy's reindeer jumper? Could it be Cameron Diaz's knitwear in the holiday? What one kind of comes

to mind as you think about it? It is the knitwear from the Oscar nominated film, The Banshees of Inishirn, that appears to be the jumpers of the moment. They have been lusted after in Vanity Fair, GQ, also Vogue. Brendan Gleeson, he's up for an Oscar for his role in the film, loved the jumpers so much that he asked for two to be made for him to keep. They were the creation of a three-year-old Delia Barry, who knitted them all by hand with only photographs to serve as her instructions. And Delia is going to join us on the line in just a moment. I see a comment already coming in from our listeners.

My favourite TV jumper is Alison from Ghosts on BBC. We often comment on her stylish jumper collection. Ghosts superfan Catherine getting in touch there. But let me start with Delia. Delia, these jumpers are so beautiful. For people who haven't seen them, I was actually distracted by them as I saw them on the screen.

What did you think when you saw them? When I saw them on the screen, I thought they looked good. When I was knitting them, it was a different story. How come? Well, you're concentrating so much, so you're not really

taking any notice until you see the finished product on somebody. And seeing that finished product, how should we describe them to our listeners? I mean, some of the colours, perhaps you'd like to tell our listeners about that, Delia, or what you were trying to achieve with those patterns.

Well, it's back around the 1920s style. They were old photographs. Fishermen wore them. They're not really iron jumpers, they're more fishermen. Barry Cogan's is a fisherman rib with a contrast collar and Colin Farrell's one is the red one is I don't know how you describe the pattern

but it has a pointed collar, which caught a lot of interest. And the Colin Farrell's navy, kind of a blue one, that stitch is just quite simple stitch. But looks fantastic. I have to say when I was looking at some of the colours

they just brought this film to life. I had somebody who was watching that film that actually says they found it difficult to know which period it was in at first because those fashions are so much back at the moment and something that is very much sought after and something that has touched a nerve with our listeners. I see so many people that are getting in touch about the jumpers

that has really hit a chord with them. I see also opposite me is fashion and beauty editor Naomi Pike in a pink jumper, I should tell our listeners. And Naomi has written for Vogue about iconic knitwear in films. I saw you nodding along as Delia was describing those jumpers yeah they're so beautiful and I think that story that you know they have been handmade kind of really transcends um through to um yeah the cinema and obviously is touching people um watching the film in a way that maybe costumes don't always have that um effect I think it's that tactility. We all kind of understand how a jumper feels,

what it can mean, especially the emotional touch that if it's a hand-knitted jumper, like the one I'm wearing, my mum made. Your mum made it. It's lovely. How would you describe it? It's got a classic crew neck,

but it's quite a vibrant future colour, which I think, you know... And it looks very warm and very cosy I should say as well. Delia when did you get into knitting? I started knitting when I was about seven when I started school. Our teacher was very involved with knitting and sewing. So 76 years ago. 76 years a lifetime ago I've been knitting on enough, I had interest

in it and it's always a challenge a new pattern And with these as well as I understand it, did I hear this correct that they kind of gave you a printout of black and white, like a photocopy of a pattern? A black and white photograph of gave you a printout of black and white, like a photocopy of a pattern?

A black and white photograph of someone wearing a jumper. And then you had to interpret? Yes, I used magnifying glass and knitted little squares and ripped them back until I got it right. And get it right you did. How long have you been working on knitwear for films? Well, I did Dancing at Luna's, that's way back. I just knitted the gloves and the cardigan for that. Then there was Rain and Fire was the next one

I'm not sure when that came out and then Little Women which was for television I have to and after that I suppose about 10 years about 10 years

on and off ok I love this we'd say later life career change as well I suppose about 10 years. About 10 years. On and off. Okay. I love this, we'd say, later life, career change as well that you've had, Delia. Very inspiring. I want to read some of the messages that are coming in to us here. Now, let me see.

Sarah Lund in The Killing. That cute little Scandi jumper gave her a deceptively innocent look while she displayed fabulous strength and sass as a cop. That's from Jackie. Colourful mohair jumpers in the TV series I May Destroy You. Let me see. Not a single jumper, but love actually deserves an honourable mention

for the sheer amount of turtleneck knitwear throughout the film. Delia's chuckling at that one. Good morning, Woman's Hour. The best jumper in a TV show by a country mile. of turtleneck knitwear throughout the film. Delia's chuckling at that one. Good morning, Woman's Hour. The best jumper in a TV show by a country mile is Mrs. Doyle's creation lovingly made for Daniel O'Donnell. So special that it was presented baked in a cake. Couple of people with this one. Delia, do you remember Starsky and Hutch?

Yes. Yes. Well, Starsky's jumper in that everyone wanted one says Paul Joel in London feeling the same way I mean when we speak of best performance by a jumper Naomi you've heard some of my listeners thoughts

what are yours I immediately think of Nicholas Holt in Naomi, you've heard some of my listeners thoughts, what are yours? I immediately think of Nicholas Holt in A Single Man, the film that was Tom Ford, obviously the brilliant American fashion designer's directorial debut. So while I think great costumes are anticipated, perhaps we thought they would be more aligned to kind of his fashion legacy. But here, when I think about it, I think of this cream, super fluffy mohair, maybe just... Kind of feminine jumper. Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, he was a young homosexual man

and was kind of a bit of the heartthrob in the movie. But I think still it had a sensitivity to it. Yeah. So that is one. I know, Delia, you do wear knitwear as well from some of the little videos I was watching. Do you have a favourite style of jumper? Well, my favourite one now at the moment

is an Aran cardigan I knitted last year, which is very warm and cosy. So that's... And it's got a fleck. It's not just a plain colour. It's got multicolour flex in it. So how long does it take you to knit a jumper?

Whether like that one or one that, for example, Brendan Gleeson was wearing in the Banshees of Inishere? That one, I can tell you, took me a week. A week? Because I was on a time limit.

So you can just knock it out? Oh, yes, you have to put the hours in. Naomi is pretty impressed, I think. Go ahead. Absolutely. No, I think I've really grown up watching Knit Webby and Maid because, as I said, my mum is a real avid knitter and I know kind of the time and the love. And also also knitting is

very technical and it really um often involves a lot of maths um something that my brain doesn't have to have capacity for but I'm forever inspired by by those that can do it um yes you can and I think that's why they become so special because there's the time and the effort and you know that it's been done by hands and two sticks you know it's it's amazing uh lots more coming in for the brain go ahead did you it is good for the brain talk us through that for the brain it keeps the brain very active because you're actually if you're watching kelly and knitting you're actually counting in your head at the same time. So it makes the brain work. I was watching an interview you were doing and you were knitting while doing it. I don't hear anything in the background. You're not doing it now, are you?

I'm not doing it now, no. No, I'm just being lazy at the moment. I don't think we'll ever put that word to you, Delia, to be quite honest, considering how prolific you've been with the knitwear. And you got a credit, I understand, on the movie, but you didn't stick around to see the end of it. No, because I didn't know it was on it.

I didn't know actually until the following day when one of the girls from the studios rang me and asked me what I thought about the credits. I said I didn't see it. So she sent it to me online. Good stuff.

Well, it's lovely speaking to you, 83-year-old Delia Barry. Now you'll know her work if you watch The Banshees of Innishirn or indeed many other movies as well. And we've also had Naomi Pike who has written for Vogue about iconic knitwear and films.

Something that lots of you are getting in touch on on 84844. Now I want to turn back to teachers. I'm sorry about that line we had for our BBC Education Editor Branwen Jeffries. She is currently attending National Education Union Strikers Breakfast in Newcastle.

Sorry, Branwen, let us return. What are people telling you about why they are striking where you are? Well, Nuala, I think one placard I've seen just come into this gathering at the breakfast before they have a rally today says it all. It was a teacher carrying a massive green straw with the placard saying the final straw in it many of the teachers here told me it's a last resort for them to go on strike they're very well aware of the impact on children in fact some of them have brought their children here today because their own schools are shut the key issue officially in the dispute is the 5% pay offer for most teachers but behind that sits a very pressing issue for most teachers which is that they feel that their

workload is increasingly hard to manage that although people have this perception that they have very contained hours and long holidays the reality that they are living is taking work home every evening and working typically a couple of hours on Saturday and Sunday too just to keep on top of the paperwork and how would that workload be negotiated it's kind of a bit more clear-cut when we're talking about a percentage of pay it is indeed I mean it has been part of the conversations i know certainly in england because bear in mind although we are seeing teachers taking industrial action across the uk as you outlined in various different ways the negotiations are separate in england workload what is actually needed for teachers to gather in terms of data that is very useful in terms of looking at

how pupils are doing through schools that is part of the informal discussions that have happened so far but we are now in a position where there is a total standoff so the secretary of state for education in england gillian keegan has said that she's very willing to meet the unions and to negotiate but she will not meet them further unless the remaining strikes are called off. The National Education Union has said, with the backing of the other three unions in the dispute, that it is going to continue with its strike action, because so far the government hasn't said what it is prepared to negotiate

or if it would be prepared to revisit that 5% pay offer. It's worth noting in Scotland, a revised offer of 6% was rejected. In Wales, an additional 1.5% was offered with a one-off 1.5% payment. That was also rejected. So there's not much prospect, if you're listening to this as a parent

or as an employer who needs people to be able to come to work that this strike is going to be resolved any time soon. So we mentioned some of them that are taking place this week across England, also Wales and Scotland. What are parents

telling you? I think there is a mixture of exasperation and resignation. Certainly for parents, it is extremely difficult to manage if they're needing to get to work. Not everybody has family just down the road. Those that do are calling on grandparents to come and look after their children. Most primary schools have seen um it's been a much more patchy impact across primary schools looking at the letters that have gone out to parents in the last week about today's strike actually across the north of england quite a

number i've seen have said that they're going to prioritize the younger year groups because they recognize that those the children that are maybe harder to leave with with older relatives and that it's more crucial for parents who need to get to work but of course parents have lived through with their children huge disruption of covid in which their children miss a large amount of school if parents begin to feel that their children's education is going to suffer that their preparation for gcse's their preparation at the end of primary for moving that big move up to high school is going to suffer, that their preparation for GCSEs, their preparation at the end of primary for moving up, big move up to high school is going to be affected. Then their patience may wear thin. Coming back to the government again, the economy was doing slightly better than was expected.

I mean, does that put any pressure on them to try and resolve these disputes, perhaps in a way that it wasn't previously? Well, of course, what's different about this teacher strike compared to the last really big action we saw in 2016 is it's happening alongside disputes across the public sector. So we're seeing the nurses, paramedics, now junior doctors have announced industrial action. And that makes the negotiations more complex and more tightly controlled from the center of government from downing street and the treasury who are arguing that in order to begin to see some slowing down in that rate of inflation the rising cost of living that people are seeing in their energy bills, their food bills, just everything that you have to pay for for your family. That in order to slow down that rate of inflation, they have to keep restraints in public pay. Now, the unions dispute that and the NEU points to the

fact that certainly if you look at secondary schools, when you look at how many people we're recruiting into initial teacher training, so signing up to become our teachers of the future, we've only got 60% of the numbers that we need signing up this year. And it's absolutely critical in subjects like chemistry, like physics, where graduates have many many other options now i think a wider question is how does that fit with the prime minister's aspiration for us to be a science focused economy where we have good math skills he's talking about boosting math skills for 16 to 18 you have to have the teachers in place so there are bigger problems that lie behind this that whatever the pay dispute ends up landing on will also have to be resolved

to make teaching an attractive profession to go into and an attractive profession to stay in. Bronwyn Jeffries, thanks so much. We are asking you to get in touch, 84844. Fiona got in touch saying through all these teacher strikes it is the children that seem to be forgotten.

My daughter is in her last year of school, been through COVID at a crucial time in her education. By the end of next week, she would have missed 12 more days of school due to strike action. These are a lost generation.

No one seems to care. Instead, Errol getting in touch says I'm so frustrated by Woman's Hour and other media outlets focusing on the impact of teachers on parents, teachers strike on parents.

The more important strike issue is what schools will do if they don't get the funding needed for teachers, teaching assistants and even pens and books. Keep your comments coming on that or indeed on the best performance by a jumper. Let's turn to donor conception. There's been a lot of conversations about it this year. A law created in 2005

that allows donor conceived children to find out more information about their donor parents once they reach the age of 18 came into effect in January. Maybe you heard the conversation on this programme. But today a new consultation is opening that will give people the chance to have their say in possible new laws surrounding fertility treatment

and also research into human embryos. Now one proposal that I was reading about this morning is that donors could be identifiable to children born of donor conception before they turn 18. Now the consultation has been held by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, it's known as the HFEA. They want to update and improve the laws around fertility treatments in the UK. With me is Julia Chain, who is chair of the HFEA. Good morning, welcome. Good morning, thank you.

So the laws that are there that govern the HFEA are 30 years old. Why haven't they been updated before this? Well, as you said, the fertility law is over 30 years old. And while it stood the test of time remarkably well, medicine, science, attitudes of society have moved on. And really, as you mentioned, parts of it are now updated and frankly, not fit for purpose. The law was actually updated in 2008 following technological advances and again, changes in advances in medicine and science. But that was 15 years ago. And really, it's time to change it again.

Let's talk about that one that got people chatting. I was looking at online a proposal to egg or sperm donor details potentially to be available to under 18s. Why is that on the table now? Well, as you mentioned, the law in 2005 changed so that children born of donation after that time could, when they reach the 18, find out identifying information from us, from the HFVA, about their genetic heritage. And actually, interestingly, the first cohort of those children turn 18 this year. But with the rise in ancestry websites and DNA kits, you know, at the press of a button, you can find out quite a lot of information about your genetic heritage. There is potential for donors and recipients and donor conceived children to be

contacted directly without the support of the HFEA or not in accordance with the law. So we felt that perhaps now is the time to start a conversation with society to ask for people's views about whether the current expectations in the law are realistic. And for example, as you mentioned, changes might be that rather than waiting until the child is 18, identifying information might be available either to donors or to the parents of that child when the child is born, for example. That's one of the issues that is a possible change in the law. And I suppose the big question there would be, when is that decided? Is it when people go for treatment,

the sort of donor that you choose that has given up the right to anonymity until the child reaches 18? Exactly. All these things need to be discussed. And that's one of the reasons we're launching the consultation today. We'd like to hear from professional sector experts, but also from the

patients themselves, from your listeners. We want to hear what their views are and share their experiences of a whole range of issues in the Act that they feel might need to be changed. Like what, if somebody, and Anne, how do they do that? Right. So firstly, they do it by responding to the consultation, which is on our website. It's, I think, very lay-friendly. We worked hard to make sure it's very lay-friendly. And also it's important to note

that you can answer the questions which are just relevant to you or which you're interested in. You don't have to answer the whole thing. But in general, we'd like to see greater flexibility in the Act so that we can continue to regulate in the best possible way for patients. And there are a number of areas where we can do this. I'd like to give you a good example. For example, is patient care. It's interesting in the 1991 Act, the 1990 Act, the HFE Act, it talks a lot about protecting the embryo, but it's really rather silent on protecting the patient.

We'd like to put the patient care at the centre of a revised Act. We'd like to see it as an explicit principle of the Act. And that would allow us to take proportionate action where, for example, patient safety is involved. So give me a concrete example. Well, for example, I'm not saying for one moment that there are safety issues. IVF is a very safe treatment. But from time to time, breaches of licences do occur. And when they occur, the only powers we've got at the moment are suspend or to revocate a licence, effectively closing a clinic, which could have really negative implications for women in the

middle of treatment. So we'd like broader and more proportionate powers where not only could we suspend all or part of a service, but for example, we could impose financial penalties where there's been serious non-compliance. The changes will have to go through Parliament. And it's six weeks, right, this consultation is open? Yes, until the middle of April. If they want to add their stories or their questions to that consultation. But the changes will have to go through Parliament.

It's such a thorny area because so many ethical questions always come up. Are you expecting your suggestions to pass or expecting pushback? Well, the way it works is that we will at the end of the consultation analyse all the answers. And again, I really hope as many people as possible respond to the consultation. We will then make recommendations to the Department of Health and Social Care and we will work with them and government to try to ensure that the Act is updated. And as you say, it is a matter for Parliament, but it's passed. And I think that there is cross-party will to make changes, because after all, we're talking about an Act that regulates medicine and science that's 30 years old.

And medicine and science has moved on so considerably that really it's worth doing. Julia, did you ever think, I don't know, over the years, if you're interested, when you've been interested in this particular topic, that we'd be where we are now when it comes to human fertilisation and embryology? No. If you think about the advances that have been made since the first Louise Brown was born, the first test tube baby, it's extraordinary. You might be interested, this month is the 100th anniversary of what they call the Daedalus Lecture, which was a lecture given by J.B.S. Haldane, who is one of the fathers of modern science. And in it, a hundred years ago this month,

he posited the idea that IVF could happen. There would be conception outside the womb. A hundred years on, here we are. And science and medicine is moving forward at such a rate. And I really hope that infertility in the next 30 years is something really of the past. My goodness. But we need an act to help us regulate it. What a concept.

Julia Chain, thanks so much. Thank you so much. Lots of you getting in touch. Let me see, I'm looking after my grandchildren today. I've had to cancel plans, but I'm happy to do a bit to support the teachers because ultimately our children will be the beneficiaries of a better paid profession. That one, of course, on the teacher strikes. Jumpers. The jumper worn by Fred Astaire in the 1968

film Finian's Rainbow was designed and knitted by Cyril Cullen of Farney Castle in County Tipperary. So says Eamon who I have a feeling might be Irish as well. Right, I want to move on now to Ukraine. Last week we marked the one

year anniversary since Russia invaded Ukraine. Last night you might have seen Ukraine's President Zelensky said the eastern front line of the battle is becoming more and more difficult with a renewed Russian onslaught. On Women's Hour we continue to talk about the devastating impact

that this war is having on women and not only to those who've had to leave loved ones behind in order to get their family to safety, but also to those women who decided to stay and then became victims of that war. And not always victims of military weapons, but of sexual violence as well. The current number of conflict-related sexual violence cases

that has been formally identified in Ukraine is 154, but officials expect the real number to be significantly higher. Some progress has been made. The establishment of a special sexual violence war crimes department within Ukraine's General Prosecutor's Office. It's solely dedicated to investigating

allegations of crimes of sexual violence that have happened since that invasion. I want to bring in both my guests. Anna Mikhilenko is a human rights lawyer, senior legal advisor for global rights compliance, who works in Ukraine. Also, Anna Orell from the Andreev Foundation. They have partnered with Women for Women International, which helps victims of sexual violence as a result of that Russian

invasion. You're both so welcome to us. Let me start with you, Anna Mikhenko. On the legal side of this, there is some progress, there is that establishment of the War Crimes Department. But how helpful is that in a day-to-day basis with what women are dealing with? Hi, good morning. Well, it's not immediately obvious, but it is indeed pretty helpful because it's not just a formal structure that was created suddenly within the war crimes unit. It's more something that symbolizes the change of mindsets within the law enforcement and within the prosecutorial system. So that unit not just oversees the investigation, they also have field missions.

They directly interact with the survivors of sexual violence. They are the ones often who are first to identify such survivors. And therefore, they're the ones who can and who are doing the best to provide victim and witness support, protection to the extent possible, and generally support beyond the criminal justice system limits. So it's the same union that is in touch with the survivors on a daily basis to find out, say, someone needs new glasses and someone needs a new phone and someone needs the windows that were shattered in their house to be replaced. So that is not a prosecutorial job per se, but it's something that the unit is also helping with.

I understand. Anna Orel, I mentioned you're working with victims of sexual violence. What do they tell you? Morning. Thank you for the invitation. People who survived such horrible things as sexual violence, they have no desire to live on. And they found themselves in crisis situations.

They often have no job. Sometimes they lost their beloved, they lost their husbands, the front line, their friends and they felt lost and hopelessness and our main goal is to give them the reason to live on and to give them confidence in their in in their efforts and we we need to explain them them to support that they can live on and they can resist. It's very important.

So different stories, you know, they are awful. Yes, in most cases, people don't want to live on. And I can imagine if they're in that state of mind, I'm wondering, Anna Aurel, do they have the inclination to try and prosecute, you know, bring those forward, those crimes that have been done to them? At this date, psychologists work with 40 victims of sexual violence and don't want to talk about what happened with them and they really scare and some of them even don't want to apply to prosecutors to police they afraid uh they are under pressure you know that russian that russians they can return they can occupy again some cities, and people are really afraid. So we need to do many efforts and to work hard to support these people and, you know, to help them to talk about what happened with them and to apply to

prosecutors' bodies. Anna Mikenko, let me turn back to you. You hear that so many women, that they're so devastated that they don't want to think about it or talk about it with anyone, much less go the route of having it prosecuted. So what can be done? There must be so many cases that are like that. Indeed. Well, it's the work of the prosecution at the moment. It's not just about the achieving justice or actual prosecutions.

It's even to identify witnesses and victims and to see what kind of assistance can be provided before they formalize their relationship, so to say, with the prosecution. So before the formal investigation starts. And of course, the more of that is done, the more likely these witnesses come forward and testify or submit their statements. communities that prosecution and investigators are there to help not not to stigmatize the survivors not to just collect their statements and forget about it but to help as much as possible with or within the criminal justice mechanisms has there been any successful prosecutions? Depends on what you call a successful prosecution, but a few cases were submitted to courts. In absentia, I think we

have three judgments as of now, so three in the past 12 months. So if they are in absentia, that would be that the perpetrator is not there in the trial. What does that achieve? which is very important in itself. For some victims, it's really important, according to them, that the perpetrators are named and the responsibility is placed on them. And that helps the survivors then to move on. And of course, that also helps in some cases, so it might help to arrest these people if they ever leave Russia, which I believe is very unlikely. But still, it's more of a truth seeking at the moment with the trials in absentia. And I'm also wondering, because this is taking place, as I mentioned, within the Ukraine general prosecutor's office, the war crimes department or sexual violence war crimes department.

I mean, is there any moves to try and stop these incidences to begin with? Any safeguards for those women that could potentially be in that dangerous situation? Well, there is a hotline and a few leaflets that can be accessed online, but it's not really up to Ukrainian prosecutors to stop the incidents that occur more often than not in the occupied territories or in the so-called gray areas where the hostilities are ongoing. Most crimes that we saw up until now are in the occupied territories where Ukrainian government does not have access to. known when these territories are liberated or very rarely when victims are able to make phone calls to a hotline or to a prosecution general office to let someone know that a crime was committed. Anna Megerenko, a human rights lawyer, senior legal advisor for global rights compliance and also Anna Orel who works for the Andreev Foundation and helps victims of sexual

violence as a result of the Russian invasion. Thanks to you both. Now, you've probably heard some of the tributes to Betty Boothroyd, the first and so far only female Speaker of the House of Commons, whose death was announced yesterday. She was 93. A former Labour MP, she served as Speaker from 1992 to 2000 before going on to become a Baroness in the House of Lords from 2001. Baroness Boothroyd was on this programme many times. Let me bring you a little from an interview she did with Jenny Murray in 2001.

The interview opens with a clip from 1987 when Betty was appointed Deputy Speaker. The first person you'll hear is Peter Pike, Labour MP for Burnley. Glad to see you in the chair. Do we call you Madam Deputy Speaker? Please call me that. Madam. Thank you very much. It's the first time I've seen you in the chair and I'm glad to welcome you to the chair. Betty Boothrod, had you prepared that line or did it come off the cuff?

Hello. It came off the cuff to a large extent, Jenny. But I had given some thought that I wanted to be called Madam, really, because what had happened is there had been a deputy speaker some years before me and for something like a year while she was deputy speaker she was referred to as Mr Deputy Speaker and recorded in Hansard as Mr Deputy Speaker. I thought that was very peculiar and I just wanted to assert myself and make it known that I was in the female agenda so why not call me madam. It did set a tone of a degree of theatricality to your tenure.

How important is drama and performance to the procedure? Well, I think there's a relationship between the two. We must always give of our best, whatever we do. You do it every day. I listen to you. I'm a regular listener, and you always perform to the best of your ability, and you're a performer. In the same way as everybody in public life must do that. So I think there is a relationship there. And here is Betty Boothroyd at her theatrical best, encouraging Simon Hughes MP to talk.

Order! Oh, order! There is no point in waiting for silence. The honourable gentleman isn't going to get silence. Produce your voice, Mr Hill. Produce your voice. Good advice to us all. You're using your voice by texting. Let me go back to knitting jumpers.

Daily Barry talked about the maths in knitting. Forty years ago, when computers were introduced into the school where I taught, my friend and I went along to learn how to do programming. We were the only female teachers who went, a maths and economics teacher.

We wrote a programme to work out average scores of our pupils' marks. Much to everyone's surprise, our programme worked first time. How did you do that? They asked. Our reply,

programming is just like a knitting pattern, so says Kate Izzard. Joe got in touch. The knitwear in the show Narcos is amazing. But I have to give a shout out to the Hero Boys jumper and the sock, which contains the mouse, in the recent Witches film. Also, the knitwear in the new Wonka film is going to be amazing.

And I know because myself and my friend knitted it. Who are you, Joe? I want to know. I love Wonka. Lots more coming in. 8-4, 8-4-4. On that, or indeed the teacher strikes, do get in touch.

But now, I want to turn to something that is the shape of a pear. With the power to create life, or indeed death, in certain circumstances. What can I be talking about? I'm talking about the womb, an organ, a muscle, miraculous, misunderstood. Let us talk about it. The book

is Womb, the inside story of where we all began. It is by Leah Hazard, a practicing NHS midwife. And within this book, Leah looks to explore the womb, an organ that she says is woefully under research. You're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. A clenched fist. Why do you use that image to describe the womb? Well, I think it's a really powerful image and it's apt because it's an incredibly powerful organ. You know, this is the only organ in our body that has the power to create a new organ within itself, the placenta, and also a new life. And it has to have the capability to expand to many times its original size and then to contract. And yes, unfortunately, sometimes it can bring death as well as life.

So I think the clenched fist really is apt. Yeah, I think it's very appropriate for what this organ can do. Is it about the size of a clenched fist when not pregnant? Yes, it is roughly the size of a kind of small clenched fist. It's more the shape of a kind of upside down pear and it just sits nestled neatly within your pelvis. And then if a person does become pregnant, it can obviously, as we all know, expand many, many times to accommodate a fully grown human foetus. Uterus and womb, you prefer the word womb? I actually prefer the word uterus, to be honest. I think, you know, I use the word womb and the book is called womb because I think it's a term that people are more comfortable with. But I'm all in favor of abandoning kind of fluffy

terms and euphemisms and calling it what it is. But, you know, to teach their own, it means the same thing. So it's fine. You are a practicing midwife. What was the biggest surprise about the uterus when you started training? When I started training? Well, I mean, you know, every time you're witnessing a labour or a birth or a loss or, you know, any event during pregnancy or the postnatal period, you're witnessing something that's unpredictable and always surprising and sometimes disappointing and frustrating. I think possibly the thing that's been most surprising to me is how, in spite of all our attempts to manage the uterus and what it does and how it behaves, it's still incredibly

misunderstood and unpredictable. Birth is always a surprise. Any woman or person with a womb going through their gynecological life will cope with all kinds of surprises, pain, bleeding, loss, joy, infertility, menopause, sometimes transition, gender changes and you know it's just an endlessly surprising organ. One thing that surprised me when I was reading your book is that when a female baby is born sometimes their nappy can be streaked with a little blood. Yeah, absolutely true. And this is a completely normal physiological event for which most parents are completely unprepared. And what happens is when that little female baby is inside its mother, it absorbs some of that mother's sex hormones just from being in that environment.

Then when the little girl is born, she goes through basically what's a withdrawal bleed. So it's almost like a mini period, except obviously she hasn't released an egg, she hasn't ovulated. So when I was working in the postnatal wards, quite often parents would approach me in a state of panic because they could see a little bit of blood in their child's nappy and they would say, you know, what is this and be really distressed. But it's a normal physiological event for female infants. And this is a theme that runs through the whole book, you know, what is this and be really distressed. But it's a normal physiological event for female infants. And this is a theme that runs through the whole book. You know, the uterus does all kinds of amazing and also very mundane,

normal physiological things for which we are entirely unprepared. What about, this was a new term for me as well, menstrual effluent. So I'm not saying menstrual blood there, because it's not all blood, as I learned. No, it isn't. And this was a surprise to me. I mean, you've asked me what's surprising. I have to say, even though I kind of thought of myself as a bit of an expert, probably 80% of what I found in the book was a surprise to me. And on the subject of menstrual effluent, I was speaking to a really fascinating researcher in America who's doing great work on endometriosis and its causes. And she and many of her colleagues use the term menstrual effluent rather than blood

because what comes out during a period isn't just red blood cells, it's other kinds of tissue, it's mucous membrane, it's immune cells. And each person's menstrual effluent, which just means a substance that literally flows out, has its own unique biochemical fingerprint. And if we can better understand and analyse that fingerprint, that may in turn lead to better, less interventionist ways of diagnosing things like endometriosis, possibly uterine cancer, and really could completely revolutionise healthcare. And, but people have not been studying the lining of the womb that comes each month. And I was reading that they thought there'd be too much of a yuck factor

about women handing it over, for example, as a specimen, but they were proven wrong. They were absolutely proven conclusively wrong. So this again was this Dr, Christine Metz in America, who is running a trial called the ROSE trial. It's about trying to diagnose endometriosis by analysing menstrual blood. And when she went to funding bodies to try and get some money, some grant money to do this work,

she basically was met with the yuck factor, as she calls it, with the predominantly male funders just thought, this is disgusting. Not only do we not really want to fund this, but women won't actually want to collect their own menstrual flow and send it to you because they'll be yucked out as well. And what Dr. Metz found is that nothing could be further from the truth. Women actually were desperately keen to contribute to this research, to collect their own menstrual flood with special cups or pads to send it in for analysis. You know, they filled out reams of paperwork to be able to take part in the study as well. So, you know, the enthusiasm is there. We want to understand

our bodies. So the people that hold the purse strings for this research really need to sort of embrace that enthusiasm as well. Fascinating as well that there could even perhaps be a smart tampon that could pick up on what's inside us or what we should be thinking about. Yeah, not only could there be a smart tampon, there is a smart tampon. So this technology I found is being developed again in America and essentially it would analyse certain sort of biochemical factors in your menstrual blood that's collected by the tampon and then send that information to an app on your phone, which know, diagnostic procedures like hysteroscopy and things like that. You know, just to be able to get this information from a tampon is phenomenal.

And that could become a reality. And of course, there's privacy questions, which we could get into. It could be a whole other discussion about some of those more futuristic aspects. But I want to go back to basics, perhaps back to babies. The uterus is often seen as a backdrop to conception. But your research and the people you're speaking to says it could play an active role in conception. Peristalsis is that we often think about that as kind of a swallowing motion or a motion that goes down through your intestines but you're thinking about it when it comes to the uterus. Yeah so this was

hugely surprising to me because I was raised as most of us were with this idea that when it comes to conception the sperm plays this very active heroic masculine questing role and sort of like finds its way to the egg which is just this thing. And the womb doesn't even get a look in. But actually, a Spanish scientist I spoke to is studying these tiny little wave-like motions that happen within the lining of the womb during orgasm, actually. And what she found is that during orgasm and also just during sort of everyday life, there is a peristaltic motion that helps to suck the sperm into the womb. So actually, the uterus is playing a really active role. And some other research that I was looking at shows that in the cervix, in the neck of the womb, there are also these little pockets or crypts.

Oh, this is fascinating. Yeah, I mean, just amazing. These little crypts can potentially hold sperm there until it's the optimal time for them to be released further up the uterus to fertilise the egg. A couple of days, I'm thinking. Yeah, I mean, I think the window is still sort of precisely to be determined, but yeah, not more than a few days. I was just thinking of some surprises if it was longer than that. Yeah, other species can actually hold and sort of maintain sperm in the crypts for potentially months at a time, which was absolutely mind blowing to me. But yeah, humans, not more than a few days.

But the point really that I found fascinating is that the uterus is definitely not just passive when it comes to sex and conception. Some of the words hostile or irritable uterus, incompetent cervix. Yeah, I'm sure many of your listeners will have heard these epithets or, you know, unfortunately been on the receiving end of them. And because as women and people with booms, when we go through our gynecological lives, you know, things happen that aren't always favourable or desirable. And, you know, a lot of medics throw around these terms like, oh, you've got a hostile uterus, that's why you can't conceive or your labor took so long because your contractions were ineffective. You failed to progress in these kinds of things or you've got an incompetent cervix, which opened too soon. That's why you lost your baby. And yes, although these terms are all trying to describe things that have happened, there's no other field of medicine where we would tolerate such negative

kind of personalised language about physiological events. So there's a part in my book where I really kind of rail against that. And I hope that this kind of language becomes a thing of the past. I also like the term gentle caesarean. Yeah, so that was another thing I was looking at. And obviously, as a midwife, I had to include a lot about pregnancy and birth in the book. That's where I kind of personally geek out. And there's a lot of debate, rightly so nowadays, about the rising rates of cesarean section. And I spoke to a surgeon who's using

what's called the gentle cesarean technique. Now, this is not for an emergency scenario. This is when it's well planned. Yes, well planned and there's time to be taken um and the baby can be delivered in such a way that it emerges more sort of slowly or spontaneously if you will from the abdomen and um there's skin to skin ecg leads are you know kept a little bit out the way and it's just about um minimizing the presence of all these necessary medical sort of items and procedures, just so the ambience and the process seems a bit more person-centred and individualised. In our last 20 seconds, what was the most surprising thing about The Womb?

The most surprising thing about The Womb is how much we don't know, actually, because I spent the better part of the last three years looking into it. I've included what I could in the book, of the last three years looking into it. I've included what I could in the book and the more I realised I knew, the more I realised I didn't know. So hopefully the book will start some conversations about those mysteries. It's so interesting. The book is called Womb. I loved reading it. The inside story of where we all began and my guest has been Leah Hazard, a practising NHS midwife. Well, tomorrow I will be speaking to the actor, singer, songwriter and all-round South London superstar Cynthia Erivo

about her role in the upcoming film Luther, The Fallen Son. I do hope you'll join me. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Please, I beg you in the name of God, I need some assistance from you. Who is worthy of our trust? I just thought this is very, very shady and there's something definitely wrong about this. He didn't believe me. I said, well, I'm not a schemer. I'm not a bad person. Join me, Matthew Side, for the latest season of my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Sideways. Seven new stories of

seeing the world differently and the ideas that shape our lives. I need to figure out a way to really compensate him or else I'm going to be the scammer that I accused him of being. Sideways on CBC Sounds. was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.