Woman's Hour - Teen sex therapy. Surrogacy Laws. Classical monsters. Singer Lisa Simone.

Episode Date: October 28, 2019

The NHS have reported that 1 in 10 people seeking sex and relationship therapy are teenagers – up from 1 in 30 two years ago. So what’s changed? We look at the issues that young people are bringing to the therapy room, the impact of porn and social media, and why teenagers are more willing to talk to adults about sex.We look at why the charity Surrogacy UK is calling for the surrogate’s legal responsibility to end at birth. Plus from car adverts to cartoons, film and sci-fi - the appeal of classical monsters in our popular culture. And the singer, composer and actor Lisa Simone talks about her latest album ‘In Need of Love’. Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest Miranda Christophers Guest Rachel Fitzsimons Guest Dr Elizabeth Gloyn Guest Natalie Smith

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. We'll talk about teenagers and sex therapy in a moment. We're also discussing monsters in the modern world. Why do we still have a need for monstrous figures in our imaginations and in popular culture as well? And we continue our pre-Raphaelite women series.

Today we'll be discussing the model, beautiful woman, Fanny Eaton. nations and in popular culture as well. And we continue our Pre-Raphaelite Women series. Today we'll be discussing the model, beautiful woman Fanny Eaton. And Lisa Simone is our guest. Yes, she's the daughter of Nina. She's also a Gulf War veteran and somebody with a fascinating life story. She's also a musician and a singer as well. So we'll hear from Lisa Simone a little later in the programme. First of all, what is a relatively frank conversation about why so many teenagers are getting sex and relationships therapy. Now, NHS figures are pretty telling, actually. The number of teens referred has gone up from about 1,400 to 4,600 in just two years. I've been talking to the sex educator Rachel Fitzsimmons, who works mainly in secondary schools, and to Miranda Christophers, who's a sex and relationships

therapist. First of all, here's Miranda on why she thinks more teenagers are looking for help. Teenagers are very aware of their body, the body image. I think they're aware, you know, via media, internet, and obviously discussing with each other, sort of having expectations around sex and relationships. And when they think that those aren't as they should be, perhaps because they've read about them, or talked about them with their friends, I think that they are then trying to seek help. They're going on the internet, for example. We're living in an age where we've got the internet. If you've got a problem of any kind, you can go on the internet,

search up what that might be, what's causing it, and then find out how to resolve it. So I think that people are sort of taking more responsibility for themselves and coming in via that route, really. The teenagers you speak to, what kind of issues are they wanting to discuss? I mean, I have people coming in of all ages, but including the teenagers for psychosexual issues. Those are often sexual dysfunctions,

so that would include things like erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, vaginismus, female genital pain. And what about pornography? Surely that is having an enormous impact here. I do think it's having an impact, yeah, absolutely. I think we would be really in denial if we were to say that it wasn't. So, I mean, definitely I work with young people that are coming in with difficulties around porn so it could be that they feel that they're they're using pornography excessively they could feel that it's affecting their relationships and interactions with friends

as well as partners and also it can be creating sexual dysfunction they can feel that they're desensitized because of the pornography and the variety that they see. And when they're actually one-to-one with a partner, it's not stimulating enough, or the stimulation is in a different way to what it would be if they were on their own with the porn. So it would appear to be a possibility that the widespread use and availability of porn

to a generation of really very young people is desensitising some of them. Yes, yeah, I would say that it certainly is. Rachel, what do you think about that? Oh, it's absolutely the case, Jane. I mean, I'd say probably near 100% of the boys that we work with in schools have seen porn and that's basically how they learn about sex.

I mean, a colleague who is a psychosexual therapist like yourself, Miranda, tells me that pretty much all the young men that he sees have learnt about sex from porn. So when you're coming from that standpoint, and yet parents or school haven't necessarily had meaningful conversations about all the other stuff that they need to learn about, you know the reality of health you know what healthy relationships look like what consent looks like

so they're getting those sort of one-sided education really and it's having a massive impact on how they treat young women in school how young women are feeling they they've got to go along with things you know that there's a sort of almost sense of entitlement because of the nature of sex in porn. We need to point out, of course, that it isn't just boys who are seeing porn. Girls are using it too, to one degree or another. True.

But the fact that you are really worried, I think, Rachel, about how some young men treat some young women, that appears to be a situation that's getting worse. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, I'd say in schools, and of course, you're absolutely right, it's not all young men, but there is quite a prevalence of sort of, you know, sexualized sort of hostile language towards young women, like, you know, like they are, you know, objectification, really, in a sexual way, at such a young age. What's really good, though know objectification really in a sexual way at such a young age um what's really good though i want to be a bit more positive is that the new relationships

and sex education statutory um status from 2020 september 2020 has put porn very much uh part of that so young people in secondary schools will learn about how porn can sometimes teach or present a distorted image and a very heavy emphasis on healthy relationships. And very much, which I would advocate, a sex positive approach to sex education where we're talking about, you know, how it should be and the reality of sex. Also, the whole body. Girls and boys are very sort of self-conscious about their bodies, negativity self-hatred around particularly girls with with vaginas their vulvas they they feel it's disgusting when we talk about how it works and and how sexual pleasure works they find that very uncomfortable very difficult so i think we need to sort of go back to basics on that as well the fact though that young men have erectile dysfunction, Miranda. Some of our older listeners will be thinking,

well, I accept that absolutely as men get older, but is this genuinely a new thing in teenage boys? Erectile dysfunction. When presenting in psychosexual therapy, what we're working with is the psychogenic causes, basically. So it's very much about what's going on inside their head. So that affects men of all ages. It really makes no difference.

So what they're experiencing is much more of a performance anxiety. Which they wouldn't have had a generation or so ago. No, perhaps not, yeah. I think we can't get away from the fact that for some you know, sex is and sex has been for generations something that, you know, people have found it difficult to talk

about. You know, we live in a day and age where it's much more accessible in general via the internet and obviously via media and people are much more open and I suppose to be fair we ought to celebrate the fact that some teenagers at least feel able to ask for help, which might not have happened a while ago. Absolutely, and I think that's what's very refreshing about it,

and I think that's actually a positive impact of the internet. As I mentioned, people of all ages today, but particularly young people, do feel that they can use it as a resource to understand what's going on for them and seek help. Rachel I don't doubt for one second that you're a very effective communicator in the classroom and that your lessons about pornography for example are really excellent but you're up against it aren't you because you can do a brilliant 40 minuteminute lesson and then everybody goes home. They've still got the internet.

They've still got access to Pornhub and everything else that's out there. Do you really feel you can fight this battle and hope to win it? I think it's, yeah, I think it's bigger than me. It's bigger than me. I think, obviously, it needs to be a whole school approach, but you're quite right.

It's when they go home. And we can't just stop them using the internet. That's impractical. It's ridiculous. It's about having that dialogue and I think parents I'm sorry that we need to do better I think we need to, it's our responsibility to maintain and establish that open dialogue

with our kids about everything and I work with parents and kids who don't have conversations about they can't say vulva, they can't say they don't even, they find it uncomfortable explaining to their little boy how to wash their penis properly. Do you know what I mean? If we're struggling with the basics of our bodies and confidence and feeling all right about who we are, then if we can't get that right, then they're not going to have conversations about pornography. So it's a wider thing. I think culturally we need to shift about how we look at the whole area of sex and sexual health. For any listener then who is worried about what their let's say it's a 14 year old son

in this case or it could be a girl um of course how do you start that conversation about pornography? Take the shame out of it don't make them feel awkward or embarrassed or weird or dirty for having looked at it um and just sort of have have a conversation really calmly and if you feel a bit out of your depth say this is a really uncomfortable conversation for me to have, I'm feeling a bit weird about it so being honest, being open being open to

talking about it together is the first step but like I say you need to sort of explain be sex positive about sex within a regular healthy relationship and then you can sort of talk about but we are seeing online we're asking a lot of today's young people aren't we we are exposing them we have created a society where they are exposed to this kind of material we are asking them to make sense of it and to then carry on

with personal relationships um it's a very, very big ask, isn't it, Rachel? It is a big ask and it's really hard for them. So we've just got to be supportive. We've got to take responsibility and not keep burying our heads as parents, as adults in their lives. We've got to kind of take some responsibility of this and not just let them get on with it. But also there's a big problem with social norms and perceived social norms. So what young people think other young people are doing is often worse than what's going on.

Like, for example, 12% of young people, the NSPCC sort of did a study, about 12% of young people have sent a sexual image, but their perception is that a lot more have sent a sexual image. So yes, they're doing it, but also they're thinking everyone's doing it. So it's about sort of giving them the actual reality of what's happening not so they get all mess you know a bit lost in their own perception of what other young people are doing which can be a pressure in itself and the the government's attempts to try and sort out age verification in terms of porn it's been put back up put back again because nobody seems to quite know how to

do it is that ever going to work the idea that you can say yes i'm entitled to see this i'm 18 let me see it i was quite encouraged by it when they said they were going to do that and it hasn't sort of happened yet but i don't think young people are bothered i think they'll get around it i i think there's always a way isn't there and pornography's been in many forms present for many many many years um so they will find a way but it's it's just the box is open now i think we just it's about conversation and dialogue i don't think it's always about prevent preventing them from seeing it that's part of it i think we've really got to to have conversations and that's what that's that's what we're getting wrong i believe that's a voice that will be familiar to people.

She has been a regular guest on the programme. Rachel Fitzsimmons, who is a sex educator working mainly in secondary schools. And you also got the view of Miranda Christophers, who's a sex and relationships therapist. It always ends with somebody like Rachel saying, yes, we've got to talk to our children. I'd really like to know from you, have you had that conversation honestly? And how did it go? So you can email the programme via our website, bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Or, of course, you can use Twitter and Instagram as well.

You can follow us. I hope you do already. It's at bbcwomanshour. Now, one of the reasons I love this job is that we can veer from that to this. And our next guest is Liz Gloyne. Welcome to the programme,. Author of Tracking Classical Monsters in Popular Culture. We're approaching Halloween and indeed on Thursday we are going to be discussing women and horror films. This is sort of similar and what really intrigues me Liz is that we seem to have a continued need for monsters. Why? Absolutely.

Well, monsters do really, really important work in our brains socially and what we're doing in the world. And they help us work out boundaries. They help us work out what the categories of things are in the world around us. We've used them as a way to sort of establish things. It's okay to do things. It's not okay to do places it's okay to go, behaviours that are okay. And the monster is there both to sort of establish things it's okay to do, things it's not okay to do, places it's okay to go, behaviours that are okay.

And the monster is there both to sort of stand in the line and say, this is not an okay place, this is the line you don't cross, right? Or if you do cross this line, this is what waits for you on the other side. So humans have always used monsters as ways of understanding the world that we're in and working with it as a way of articulating what we're frightened of, what we're scared of. Now, this is the time of year where our thoughts traditionally turn to other worlds and eerie presences and all the rest of it.

Monsters have been around, well, you say more or less forever. Can you give me the earliest recorded example of a monster? Oh, gosh, it goes way back beyond my period. We've got stuff coming out from sort of the early East, early Eastern traditions sort of the Sumerian cultures, that kind of thing. This is all sort of coming through for a

very long tradition, standing tradition of understanding where monsters are, why humans need monsters and what we're doing with them. Are they female, male or isn't it relevant? A mix of both. But certainly by the time you get to the Greek period, you've got a big tendency towards female monsters. There are male monsters as well, but there do seem to be a strong concentration of female monsters turning

up in certainly in Greek myths. And why might that be? Well, there's sort of this link that's made in Greek thought in between nature and the female, and it all comes down to binaries. So when you're thinking about monsters in Greek thought, they're interested in sort of various oppositions. They're interested in order versus chaos in the very original foundation myths. They're interested in civilization versus nature. They're interested in rationality versus irrationality. They're interested in male versus female and because there's this connection that tends to be drawn in between the female and nature

you can kind of see how the female then becomes associated with the irrational with the forces of chaos and then we need the hero to come along and reinstate patriarchy and bring in order bring in civilization all of that kind of stuff it's only what is it now 17 minutes past 10 on a monday morning first mention of patriarchy in the week but it won't be the last um now medusa um briefly uh what does medusa look like in case anybody doesn't know she is the one with all the snakes on her hair uh whether or not she has a snake's tail depends on when you're looking at in the mythical tradition really the first time she really has a snake's tail powerfully is in Ray Harryhausen's Clash of the Titans, start of the early 80s. And he is the one who goes, she should have a tail really, shouldn't she? And he gives her one. And if you look at most of the representations of Medusa since, she's got a tail. It's been hugely influential in how popular

culture, how we think of Medusa. But she is still used, isn't she? Particularly when we think of powerful women. Oh, completely. Who are still, some places in the world still think of that as being an unnatural thing. Well, and some places in the world, including various Western cultures, absolutely. Political cartoons are full of examples of women with Medusa's, powerful women being presented as Medusa, being cut down by male politicians. Mary Beard's very good on this in her Women in Power book.

But it is this sort of this fantasy, this idea of putting the powerful woman back in her place by conquering her in that kind of way. And political cartoons really are a very strong place for classical monsters to be used and to be sort of articulating these kinds of ideas and these kinds of thoughts. What about the relationship between monsters and the idea of monsters and the LGBTQ community? That's a very powerful link, isn't it? Absolutely. And this is sort of all to do with this feeling in the late 20th and early 21st century that we're suddenly wanting to understand the monster,

to become a monster. This isn't something that the Romans or the Greeks would have had any truck with at all, but it's really come to be something, if you think of sort of all of the vampire chronicles, Amnesty's vampire chronicles, so there's stuff full of characters who desperately want to become vampires, right?

And this desire to become the monster has become a really powerful mode in that sense. And with that sense of the LGBT community feeling monstered, feeling othered because of their sexuality, then the idea to be able to look at monsters and identify with them and say powerfully, this is an identity. This is who we are. Lady Gaga sort of calling herself the mother monster or the little monsters that sort of are therefore brought into a family they might not feel they otherwise have so that sympathy of the monster is allowing these other stories to be opened up to be explored in ways that before this cultural moment as it were

we haven't really had before and particularly for the LBT community that's very powerful What is more scary actually is the unseen monster isn't it? The thought, the dread, the possibility that's very powerful. What is more scary actually is the unseen monster isn't it that the thought the dread the possibility rather than the warty three-horned reality if I can put it that way. Yeah and this is again this is about the modern moment and which is why the fact that we've still got classical monsters out and about is is so interesting. What do you mean classical monsters out and about? So I mean we still see in this building i mean when you when you open

when you turn on the television you can still see a centaur you can still see um centaurs being sort of uh the half half horse half human right things um you they are still being used in adverts in all over the place in computer games um and yet we are as you say in this moment where the hidden monster the invisible invisible monster, whether it's the invisible virus who sort of is on our skin and we can't tell until it's too late, whether it's the serial killer, all of these kinds of visible monsters are very much where we are at the moment. So this is what I wanted to explore in the book was why do we still have classical monsters who, as you say, you look at them and you go,'s got three heads three-headed dog clearly a monster you know why why are why are we in this almost this is a retro moment for monsters when where we're where the historical trend towards monsters have taken us is very much these these visible these invisible sorry what what scares you oh deadlines um it's a very real world it's slightly disappointing answer.

I know, I know. What does scare me? I think it is those fears of the unseen. But then again, this is the era that I'm brought up in, isn't it? This is what's socialising me and what makes me, what around me, what the world around me tells me to be scared of. Really interesting. Thank you very much. Enjoy this spooky week. Liz Gloyne, Tracking Classical Monsters in Popular Culture is her book and she works at Royal Holloway, part of the University East London. It's all part of BBC Introducing. And if that intrigues you, go to bbc.com forward slash introducing. More information there. So Friday's programme is a music special from Tobacco Dock, part of BBC Introducing. proposals about changing the laws surrounding surrogacy. As it stands, the surrogate retains

legal responsibility until the intended parents get what's known as a parental order from a court, and that can take between six and nine months. The new idea is that the intended parents become the legal parents from birth. Let's explore this in more detail in the company of Natalie Smith, who is chair of Surrogacy UK's Working Group for Surrogacy Law Reform. And welcome to the programme, Natalie. Thank you. You have twin daughters born through surrogacy, don't you? I do, yes. Yeah. And now you don't think these changes go far enough, simply put.

Yeah, that's true. So I think in one way, what the Law Commission has done is incredibly bold. Surrogacy law has not been changed for over 30 years and it's incredibly outdated. But to anyone who has been through surrogacy it's so obvious that this is the right thing to do. Now where the Law Commission I think should go even further is that what they've got in the detail of the proposals is this right for the surrogate to object to the intended parents becoming the legal parents. And how long would they have to make that decision? They would have one week less the period for birth registration, which is a rather convoluted way of putting it, but it's because there's different timeframes in Scotland and England and Wales for that.

Now, we're okay with that. However, what we think the law commission is proposing would happen in the case that a surrogate does object is where we don't think it goes far enough. So at the moment, if a surrogate were to object to the intended parents becoming the legal parents, under the new proposals, the law would strip the status of legal parent away from the intended parents and automatically give it to the surrogate whether she wants it or not and I think here we've got a huge assumption about what the surrogates will want and actually our research shows that 90 over nearly 97 percent of surrogates have said they do not want to be seen as the mother to those children at birth because that's not how they see themselves. Because this is at heart, you would say,

from your experience and no doubt from other members of your organisation, this is a transactional business. It's a deal. I actually would say, would not argue that at all. I think in the UK, one of the other questions the Law Commission is proposing is whether in the UK they do open up commercial surrogacy, which would allow that transactional business deal. So forgive me, I've probably phrased that clumsily. What I meant was there is a full understanding between surrogate and intended parents that you both mean business. And I mean business without the commercial aspect at the moment. Yeah, that's right. I mean, for the surrogate, really what it is, it's about surrogates and intended parents coming together to realise a mutual dream.

For the surrogate, she wants to see that moment where she creates a family. That's what her motivation is. And obviously for the intended parents, it's about them creating their child. So it is kind of everybody is aligned on what the outcome is on the identity of the child. So, yes, everybody kind of goes into it knowing that that's what the outcome should be. Isn't there actually a sort of squeamishness, which I think many people listening possibly will share, probably even, we're slightly ill at ease still with the notion

that a woman can give birth to a child and be prepared to part with it. Yeah, I think that is the hitting the nail on the head, really, if we talk about patriarchy again. But really, I think people don't understand the fact, they think about themselves when they gave birth or when they might give birth of their female thinking I could never give my child away what they what people don't then understand is that that is not what surrogacy is they are not giving their child to somebody else a surrogate is carrying lots of surrogates say they're babysitting

someone else's child for them for nine months and then they're handing it back to its parents when it's born and it's really about shifting that mindset and actually what surrogates have been saying to us is they want the right not to be recognized as the mother of the child but there's something about society as you say that is really squeamish about saying in some circumstances the person who gives birth is not the mother and that is the case for surrogacy. Can we just talk in purely practical terms then what happens at the point of birth the law commission is suggesting that the intended parents become immediately the next of kin so immediately would have the right to decide on health care for example and any decisions about what might happen to the child straight away?

Yeah, so the Law Commission is saying that as soon as the child is born, so from birth, it would be the intended parents that are the legal parents of the child. Now, they are suggesting that the surrogate could also have a shared parental responsibility. So actually, the surrogate could be making some decisions about medical consent. We're saying that is wrong, and that's one of the areas they don't go far enough the surrogate should not have that period of shared parental responsibility and it should be

the parents and then there'll be unless the surrogate objects then the parents will be able to go and register their child and they will be seen as the legal parents. They don't have to go through a court process as they do at the moment. It would just be the assumption under law. It's actually quite difficult to find out how often this happens, isn't it? I mean, at surrogacy generally, I mean. Now, officially, we know 367 parental orders were granted in England and Wales in 2018. And that's certainly an increase on the year

before. But presumably there are, thanks to things like Facebook, for example, loads, well, perhaps not loads, but certainly a number of informal arrangements made on Facebook. Yeah, and we've seen, I think, a huge growth in kind of what we call independent surrogacy arrangements. Yes, it does. There are some small groups that do it well, but most of the cases that do hit the courts, which is very few, so I think in the last 30 years there's only been a handful of cases that have been disputed around the parental order,

but most of those have gone through these informal arrangements where actually people didn't understand what they were getting into and that therefore isn't surrogacy that's something completely different if that hasn't been good intent if everybody hasn't understood the legal implications they haven't really formally consented then that should not be allowed and actually under the new proposals for the law commission people that haven't gone through a series of safeguards and checks would not be

eligible for being recognized as legal parents at birth and what about those two pathways we sort of strayed into it earlier which was my fault but commercial surrogacy should it be allowed to happen um absolutely not no um what the uk has got right is that it has had a really strong principle in law that surrogates are only paid reasonable expenses so the principle there is that it has had a really strong principle in law that surrogates are only paid reasonable expenses. So the principle there is that the intended parents reimburse the surrogate for any costs associated with trying to have or having a child for somebody else. So she's not left out of pocket, but there's no profit. Well, the figure that is bandied around is £15,000? Yeah, I think the mean is around £11,000.

It's a whole range of expenses, though. At Surrogacy UK, we see some surrogates with expenses towards £5,000 or £6,000, and some are up at around £15,000. But every single one of those expenses will be justified. It will be documented in a spreadsheet. You have to write it all down and document spreadsheet. At Surrogacy UK we do. And the reason we want to retain this, what we would call altruistic surrogacy, is because it really respects the human nature of surrogacy. It's something very mutual,

very reciprocal. It's a team of people coming together. and as soon as you put money into that you make it this transaction you change the nature of those relationships and actually what we see in the UK is really good ongoing relationships between surrogates and tendered parents and children I mean for example my children we're still in touch with our surrogate she's Auntie Jenny they know all about how they came into the world. They're very proud of that. And I think the so as well as that relationship aspect, the other thing for commercial surrogacy is access. We already have said that the expenses are not cheap, IVF is not cheap. And I would really worry that moving towards a commercial system in the UK, you start to price people out of becoming parents through surrogacy. In the US, prices vary from £100,000 to £200,000 for surrogacy. It's just unobtainable for most

people. That's a terrifying amount of money. Thank you very much indeed. Interesting. I really want to know what other people think about that. Natalie Smith is chair of Surrogacy UK's working group for surrogacy law reform. Natalie, thank you very much for telling us what you think about that. Natalie Smith is chair of Surrogacy UK's working group for surrogacy law reform. Natalie, thank you very much for telling us what you think about that on this morning's programme. Now, the Pre-Raphaelite Sisters is an exhibition which opened at the National Portrait Gallery in London. It's the first ever incredibly major exhibition to focus on the untold story of the women of the Pre-Raphaelite art movement. Well, we've been looking at some of the muses, artists, poets and partners who've been somewhat neglected, to put it mildly, over the decades.

Dr Jan Marsh curated the exhibition. She's one of our guides and so too is Dr Alison Smith, who was in charge of the Tate's Burne-Jones exhibition last year. Today we focus on the model Fanny Eaton. She lived from 1835 to 1924, and her story has really only just begun to be told. I asked how the artist Joanna Boyce-Wells, who we've already discussed in this series, came to paint her, and it's Jan you'll hear from first. Fanny Eaton, who was Jamaican-born and therefore very dark-skinned, became, in the early 1860s,

the most popular model for figures in dramas and biblical narratives. Anyone with a dark skin, an exotic looking figure, female figure, she was the go-to model for that. And Joanna Wells had planned two subjects which Fanny Eaton would be suitable for. One was the Libyan Sybil, one of the Sybils, the ancient prophetesses from the classical world, reading the oracular Sybilline books. And the other was Queen Zenobia, who was, again, a captive queen in the Roman world. So these are historical fictions. And we have in the exhibition some very nice tiny little sketches of Fanny Eaton posing in Joanna's sketchbooks of different poses

showing just what kind of work a model did, holding this pose or that pose. And what do we know about the life of Fanny Eaton? What was she doing in England? Well, she had quite a hard life, but a long life. Yes, because most of these women die very young. Fanny Eaton? What was she doing in England? Well, she had quite a hard life, but a long life. Yes, because most of these women die very young. Fanny Eaton didn't. She lived into her 80s, I think. But she would have been a working class woman. She came over to Britain in the 1840s. This was post-emancipation, emancipation of slavery in the British Empire. She came over with her mother.

She didn't really know who her father was. He might have been a plantation worker or a British soldier in Jamaica. But she comes over with her mother and then she marries a driver in London, a man called James Eaton, who has ten children with him and works as a child woman, but cleaner than a housekeeper. hard physical work but obviously it's spotted by artists and obviously one artist will refer her to another and the extraordinary thing about her is she dies in total obscurity in an unmarked grave but now she's popping up all over the place well good because I was art historians are coming forward and saying oh that's Fanny Eaton in that picture since we've been discovering her in Victorian art

her descendants have been discovering her in Victorian art, her descendants have been discovering her through ancestry research and Brian Eaton, a great-great-grandson, is aiming to install a gravestone to mark the spot. Would she have made money from modelling? I mean, you say she was a charwoman, ten kids.

She would have, yes. So some, Elizabeth Siddle, we don't know, she probably wouldn't have been paid because she was friends with the artist and part of that artistic circle. But someone like Fanny Eaton would have, yes. So some, Elizabeth Siddle, we don't know, she probably wouldn't have been paid because she was friends with the artist and part of that artistic circle. But someone like Fanny Eaton would have been employed professionally. So she'd have done it as a means of earning a living. She wouldn't have done it as a favour to the artist. They hired her on a professional basis. But she obviously was a very good model.

She's incredibly beautiful. Joanna Wells' portrait, the head of a woman, shows her as a queen, maybe Queen Zenobia, wearing this beautiful sort of white blue in her hair. And she often has this very interiorised, sad, but very regal, dignified expression. I think because she could hold these regal, dignified poses, that's one of the reasons why they would select her for these biblical roles or from new Roman mythology, because she had this particular bearing.

And it's also interesting about pre-Raphaelitism. Pre-Raphaelitism wasn't only about blondes, pale-skinned women. It's the idea that beauty is something which cuts across time and all different races and backgrounds. Is Fanny Eaton the only woman of colour to be painted by the Pre-Raphaelites? I think there were others. I just don't think we've been able to recognise them yet. And it was very difficult to discover Fanny Eaton's name.

That's only happened in the last 20 years, isn't it? So it's been a detective enterprise through records. She modelled at the Royal Academy too. There appears to be quite a strong Pre-Raphaelite influence in contemporary fashion photography. I don't know whether, is it Gucci have got Harry Styles in some kind of brocade style military jacket? Am I imagining this? I think that's really interesting long hair is very fashionable now it wasn't wasn't always but a lot of young men and women long hair smooth features wearing vintage dress that all smacks of pre-athletism and i think we were talking about a generation now where people are used to this idea for selfie selfie and striking a pose. And that, of course, takes you back to these images

where women are shown in these, and men too, in extraordinary costumes and poses. But I don't really understand why the Pre-Raphaelite image remains so popular. It's beautiful. And that doesn't go out of fashion, does it? And also it just renews itself with each generation because it's depicting young women. And so it'll always appeal to teenagers.

It's about fashion, self-presentation, posing. And often the subjects are quite tragic with its heightened emotions. That very much appeals to the teenage frame of mind. The Pre-Raphaelite Sisters exhibition is at the National Portrait Gallery in central London for the next couple of months and you heard there the expert voices of Doctors Jan Marsh and Alison Smith and the author by the way not the author the artist we mentioned there Joanna Boyce-Wells we have also discussed her earlier in this series you can find that on BBC Sounds. Now Lisa Simone is here welcome to the programme Lisa. Thank you. Singer, composer, actress, Gulf War veteran, and yes, the daughter of Nina Simone, which it's a fact you are Nina Simone's daughter. I am indeed.

Is that a cross to bear or a wonderful legacy or a bit of both? That's my mom. So I often remind people to just take a step back and think of their own relationship to their mother. It's extremely familiar. And I'm the only person in the entire world who calls Nina Simone mommy. So it's uniquely mine. And it's both things. It's heavy and it's light.

But it all depends on one's perspective, doesn't it? There's much more to say about her and indeed about your life. But I want to start with this track. This is the title track, actually, of your new album. It's called In Need of Love. Here we go. She needs love Love He's an attorney

Always suffering On the outside He's got a skin disease Something happened when he was young Scarred him so deeply He became the bully He needs love He became the bully. He needs love.

Because he doesn't feel anymore. Okay, who is the bullying attorney with the skin disease? My mother's attorney. There's more to this, Lisa. Oh, it's a long story. We don't have enough time but I will say this it was an extremely uh painful um dark time that I was going through there's my life before my mother died and there's my life after my mother died and um the rose-colored glasses shattered when she died, and I was thrown into a way of living that I'd never experienced before, and I stood up to attempt to deal with her affairs. Let's just keep saying it that way.

And there were a lot of people who had their own agenda. And in the midst of a very harrowing time, there were two particular individuals, a woman and a man, who were making it their life's mission to destroy me. And at this time, I live in my mother's former house. I sleep in the spot where she died. And one evening, this song came in its entirety, the melody, the words, and I was able to see past the angry, ugly faces of these two people and actually look into their hearts and look at them with compassion and that's how this song was born yeah I mean if you just if you don't speak English and you just hear the beautiful soothing vocals and the lovely music you are not aware of what is actually being said about these people um so it's it's very very

powerful um your your own own backstory, I mean, you really, you've lived quite a life, to put it mildly. Haven't I? Well, you really have. I get tired when I see anything I've done. The Gulf, serving in the Gulf War is not a trivial thing. And you were in the military for quite some time, weren't you? I was, 10 and a half years of my life. I went in at 18 and I got out at 29.

So why did Nina Simone's daughter serve in the military? Good question. Yeah. Desperation, impatience, youth, you know, things not working out when you wanted them to and the way you wanted them to. So you just decided to go in a direction that was not the smartest thing to do. The day that I woke up in basic training, and they were screaming at us turning over beds, I was like, what have I done? So but at the same time, it helped me to transition out of my teenage years into my adult years. It helped me to learn a skill, which is civil engineering. I have a two year degree in civil engineering and many years of experience. And it also led me back to who I truly am,

which is the reason why we're sitting here talking today. Yes. But at that point, presumably, were you doing no music or had you decided it wasn't for you or you didn't dare to do it? What was it? A lot of the elders in my life, my mother not included, had said, you're not going to live that kind of life. And so there was always this cloud that was over the artistic, musically artistic vocation. It came very natural for me, singing, composing, harmonies, all came very natural for me. And I was happy when I did it. I made other people happy. But for some reason, those people who had my best interests at heart felt, you know, like most elders, you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be a lawyer, you're going to be an engineer, but you're not going to do that. And it was interesting at the age of 28 that I happened to be brought back to who I truly am, which is an artist, and that I recognized it.

And for the first time in my life, I felt that call, that fire in my heart. And I decided to follow that. Well, you implied there that your mother didn't discourage you. But on the other hand, that's not the same as encouraging you. So she didn't encourage you. She didn't encourage me

and she didn't discourage me. My mother, as most of us who know some of Nina Simone's journey, had a very conflicted relationship with the music industry because of her color, because of her temperament, her genius, because of the times, because of the type of material that she chose to write about and support. So it wasn't easy for her and most parents that I know of, they want their children to be happy and to be fulfilled. Well, for anyone who thinks, oh, Nina Simone, yeah, great jazz, blues singer, wonderful.

Yeah, but actually, she was not. She was a thwarted classical pianist. God bless you for saying that. Well, she really was. Yes, she was a classically trained musician who wanted to go into the classical world. Because of the color of her skin, she was not accepted into that world. And that was a huge pain that she carried until a few days before she died. A few days before she died, there was a delegation of women in Philadelphia who told me that when she came through there in 2001 to do a concert, she was still lamenting the fact that she had been rejected by the Curtis

Institute of Music. So they took it upon themselves, without my mother's knowledge, to go to the Curtis Institute to ask them to... My mother already had two doctorates by that time, and they awarded her a diploma. So three days before she died, she was told when she'd lost all her motor skills and had had two strokes, they told her that the Curtis Institute had given her a diploma and they said that she smiled. So when my mother left this world, that circle had finally been closed. Yeah, so too late, really. But at least they did it. And you do acknowledge and you've made, I do urge people to look up the Netflix film you made about your mum.

What happened, Miss Simone? But in that you do acknowledge that she was abusive. She was not a well woman in many ways and very unhappy. But she did hurt you. She did. And I kind of sum it up by saying I made the mistake of growing up. And, you know, I have a daughter who's 20. And everything on her body

defies gravity. She stops traffic the whole nine. And if you're an old crone like I am, and you are not secure in who you are, then that can be difficult to watch and difficult to process. And so my mother looked at me more like a competitor or a challenge. And that's how she treated me, as opposed to her daughter, who was growing up and trying to find her way. It's a devastating story, actually. Your mom, certainly, and yours, I have to say, is one of a journey. And it seems to have ended very happily for you in the South of France. My smile is real. It certainly seems to be.

Such a nice pleasure to meet you, actually. Thank you very much, Lisa. Thank you. Lisa Simone, singer, composer, actress, and the album is called In Need of Love. And that was Lisa Simone, a really interesting woman, quite a life story, as she alluded to there. And her Netflix documentary about her mum,

which she cooperated with, is called What Happened, Miss Simone? And I saw it yesterday. It was really interesting because I confess I did assume that Nina Simone was happy to be Nina Simone I didn't know that she was basically someone who thought that she was really what was a brilliant classical musician whose life had to go in another direction so that's a really interesting documentary which Lisa is a part of now to your emails about sex education and about teenagers seeking sex therapy and relationships counseling this anonymous email

came in i've tried many times to talk to my now 13 year old adopted son i've tried for the last three to four years to talk about sex and surrounding issues only to be shut down i've now missed the boat as he's already engaged in sexual activity with his girlfriend, and we've had to have intervention from social services. I have bought books for him. Sadly, as he has a learning disability, they've been largely ignored. Perhaps an earlier intervention at school with sex and relationship discussions would have helped,

as they do in some Scandinavian countries. I do think a lot of parents feel very unskilled in this area, sex and relationship discussions would have helped, as they do in some Scandinavian countries. I do think a lot of parents feel very unskilled in this area, and a lot of children pick up on this. I have two younger sons, and I would love to help them start on this journey earlier. Hattie says, I am an education and wellbeing specialist for BRUC, the Young People's Sex and Relationship Organisation. I work in a team of three and we cover almost all the secondary schools in Cornwall. We have very open sex positive conversations with young people all the time and we do talk about porn and its effects and we try and demystify the messages within it. We empower young people to make better decisions around their relationships and sex lives.

I think we give them clear messages about what a healthy relationship looks like. I go home every day feeling I've given young people an opportunity to think differently. It's up to them what they do with that, though. I feel very strongly that a lot more work needs to be done with my own generation, the parents, to empower us to be able to have these conversations. We've got to be really brave, but also respectful of young people's rights. The more open we are, the more likely they are to have positive attitudes and therefore cope with the myriad conflicting and downright awful messages they can receive. Personally, as I am totally desensitised, I'm able to speak very openly with my daughters much to their horror at times

from florence just listen to your program as the mother of a four-year-old daughter it's something i've already given lots of thought to as i anticipate and witness her growing up in this world today she goes to an inspirational nursery where they do philosophy for kids and she often sings a song she learned there my body is mine and mine alone my body is mine and mine alone if you don't want to be touched just sing no no no she is beautifully maddeningly strong-willed and will never endure a hug or feel she's got to kiss somebody goodbye despite some adults finding this a bit disappointing or hurtful. I think it's heartening, says Florence. I think we all remember that feeling, don't we, from our childhood of great auntie so-and-so is

leaving and we're obliged to give her a kiss. And maybe it wasn't uppermost in your list of ambitions for the next five minutes, but we all sort of went along with it. And maybe it's right to say to the children, or perhaps it is, it is right, isn't it? right to say to the children or perhaps it is it is right isn't it just to say do what you want and on the subject of surrogacy Sarah emailed to say I'm concerned I thought that was a one-sided perspective offered just now on surrogacy pregnancy is a vulnerable time in a woman's life her physical and mental health are often at risk to gloss over that reality is very troubling there is no evidence that the Law Commission have made efforts to consult women who've engaged in a surrogacy arrangement and regretted it. Their proposals do not engage at all with the ethical question at the heart of this issue, whether or not we should be enabling greater proliferation of surrogacy. Parenthood isn't a right and surrogacy is the commodification of women's bodies. Thank you for making that point, Sarah. I know there are many people who share that point of view, so I take your point. Thank you very much for emailing the programme, which of course you

can do whenever you like. The best way to do it is through the website bbc.co.uk slash womans hour, particularly if like Sarah, you've heard something and you really want to make the opposite point of view. I get that completely. Tomorrow, join us for the programme and the podcast. Here's a question. A man escapes from one of the world's most brutal dictatorships. He's risked everything to do it. But once he's free, he digs a hole and he tunnels straight back in again. Why? I'm Helena Merriman and over the past six months, I've been investigating an extraordinary escape story for BBC Radio 4. A story involving a tunnel, a spy and an American TV network.

To subscribe, search for Intrigue Tunnel 29 on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.