Woman's Hour - Ten Years of Stalking Laws: 'Changing attitudes is harder than changing the law'

Episode Date: November 21, 2022

To mark ten years since stalking became a specific crime in England and Wales Woman's Hour has a special programme looking at what’s changed in that time. We have exclusive data on how this is being dealt with by police. The BBC's Gemma Dunstan joins Emma Barnett in the studio to go through the findings.One question we wanted to answer is what efforts have been made to get to the crux of the problem; to stop stalkers from stalking. Woman's Hour were granted extremely rare access to one of the three specialist stalking units around the UK. These units brings together police, psychologists, probation staff and victim advocates to decide the best steps to take to minimise the risk of stalking incidents. Emma Barnett visited the London Unit which has been in operation for 4 years. We are joined by the crime reporter, presenter and podcast host Isla Traquair. In her day job Isla is used to confronting murderers and travelling to dangerous places but it was in a quiet village in Wiltshire where her stalking ordeal took place. In August this year Isla's neighbour, Jonathan Barrett, was found guilty of stalking. This followed what Isla calls a 7 month period of terror from March to September 2021, she joins Emma in the studio. How are police dealing with a huge rise in the number of stalking cases? Emma puts this question and others to to Paul Mills, Deputy Chief Constable for Wiltshire Police. He is also the National Police Chief's Council lead for Stalking and Harassment.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. A special programme for you today here on Woman's Hour, covering a reality we wish wasn't the case for those who are affected, the majority of whom are women. I'm talking about stalking, because this week marks 10 years since stalking became a specific crime in England and Wales. You could be forgiven for thinking we'd had such a law for

longer, but we haven't. The Prime Minister in 2012, at the time of this legal change, David Cameron, described stalking as an abhorrent crime, which makes life a living hell for the victims. It certainly is a unique and dangerous one, defined as behaviour that is fixated, obsessive, unwanted and repeated. The change in the law saw new powers for law enforcement and training rolled out across the Crown Prosecution Service and police. But has it worked? What has changed in the last decade,

a period that's seen no less than five different prime ministers, each saying they would prioritise law and order, and in particular, especially of late, women's safety. Coming up on the programme today, we have exclusive figures gathered for Woman's Hour by the BBC's shared data unit. We speak to the news anchor and podcast host, Isla Traquair, herself a victim of stalking. Her stalker was convicted earlier this year. He was her next door neighbour. She'll be joining me on the studio. Believe me, it is a story you ought to hear. We also have extremely rare access to a stalking unit which brings together police, health and others all in one place to try to get perpetrators to stop.

There are only three of these units in the country. And later, a robust exchange with the police officer tasked with being the national police lead for stalking. A conversation happening against the backdrop of some women questioning their faith in the police generally, after a series of reports about police have revealed some sexist attitudes and cultures across different forces in the aftermath of the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah Everard. As always, I do want to hear from you today. Have you any experiences of stalking? Has it happened to you or someone you're close to or someone you know? Have you suspected it might be happening would you know what stalking behavior

looked like and where it crosses over into something that is criminal and how and where to get help hopefully some of those answers will be provided today but your experiences and your views on this do let me know especially as we take a look 10 years on from this becoming a specific crime you could text me here at women's hour 84844 as you always can text will be charged especially as we take a look 10 years on from this becoming a specific crime, you could text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844, as you always can. Text will be charged to your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour, or email me or the team through the Woman's Hour website, or send a WhatsApp message or voice note if you want to on 03700 100 444.

Just use Wi-Fi perhaps if you can because data charges may apply. First, I'm joined by the BBC's Gemma Dunstan, who has been looking back at the last 10 years. Gemma, good morning. Good morning. Well, let's start with the Protection from Harassment Act, which was introduced in 1997. That was intended to tackle all forms of harassment so that could be anything from text messages to an act of violence essentially anything where a person behaves in a way which is intended to cause distress or alarm where it happens more than once and that's the key bit but many felt this legislation just didn't go far enough and many impacted by stalking said they weren't taken seriously by the criminal justice

system. So for a really long time there were calls from victims and campaign groups for something more specific so that police forces, probation services and the courts had clarity about what stalking actually was so it could then be acted on in a way that they felt was more appropriate. There was a parliamentary inquiry at the time which heard that around 120,000 victims, mostly women, were stalked each year but that less than half of incidents were being recorded as crimes by the police and then only one in 50 of those reports led to an offender being jailed. Now in December 2010 Scotland was one of the first countries in the world to recognise stalking as a crime in its own right so as you'd expect this added pressure for others to follow

suit and as part of the inquiry which was behind the change in England and Wales victims of stalking families of those who had lost people from homicide as a result of stalking gave their views and met with the then Prime Minister David Cameron. Tracy Morgan was one of them. She was stalked for nine years, an ordeal which started in 1992 by a man she worked with. In fact, Tracy was one of those who originally saw the harassment act created in 97 after going public with her case. I was actually at number 10. I had just had a meeting with him about it. So I heard firsthand when these measures are announced and when these laws are announced, it's emotional. It's huge.

You feel, you know, it's a huge impact months and years later. And then you find out things aren't being used as they should be, say laws aren't being used as they should be. You think, why aren't you getting this? Why aren't you getting this? We have, you know, the tools that are there to be used by police, by CPS, for goodness sake, use them. But again, we're back to attitude. Getting laws changed was far easier than changing attitudes. Stalking at the time was given a maximum sentence of five years. That's since been doubled to 10 years. But it's worth noting that, you know, Scotland, England, Wales have been in alignment for 10 years now, but Assembly members in Northern

Ireland only passed these laws back in February this year. There you go, so a difference around the UK and how things have been implemented as well, which we'll get into. We've had some data commissioned for this special programme today, 10 years on from the law change in England and Wales. Can you talk us through it, Gemma? What have we found? Yes, as part of this programme, the BBC shared data unit has been analysing stats and figures to kind of bring us the most up to date picture on stalking. So some of the things they found were the number of recording stalking offences has tripled in England and Wales over the last three years. So in terms of actual numbers, that's nearly 100,000 cases of stalking reported in the year 2021 to 2022. And you compare that with just 32,000 three years before. Now, it's really important to mention the way stalking has been recorded by the Home Office did change during that time so that does affect those numbers.

In April 2020 a change meant that cases where a course of conduct is reported between a victim and their former partner must be recorded as stalking unless the police are satisfied that the matter amounts to harassment law only. So really big jump in the numbers because the method they used to count it has changed. But many I've spoken to say that those figures now, so that number of almost 100,000 cases reported is much more reflective and actually accurate of how prominent this crime is. In the same time period of three years charge rates have fallen from 11% to 6% and that's a continuing year-on-year trend from 2014 to 2015 where it was as high as 37%. Of cases that do get tried in court two-thirds end in conviction so there's a

really clear narrative here of pretty high conviction rates but very low charge rates. Other figures which really kind of help us paint a bit of a picture of who's been impacted by stalking come from the Office for National Statistics. Their crime survey for England and Wales in 2019-2020 estimated that 3.6% of adults, so anyone aged between 16 and 74, experienced stalking that year. So in terms of numbers, that's an estimated 1.5 million victims. And we can break that down even further. 65% of those victims are women, which means 35% are men. And there's often this misconception that only men stalk women, but of course, anyone can be a stalker and anyone can be a victim of it.

Yes, I mean, I'm just struck by a message we've received, which says, hello, I'm a woman who's been stalked by a woman. It was all about control. It is the worst thing I have experienced. And sometimes it isn't taken seriously. And just to pause, there are a lot of figures in there. The charge rate, fine, the conviction rate is relatively good once you get to that point. But the charge rate has fallen in this time, despite the numbers going up from 11 percent to 6 percent.

That's right. And it was, you know, at one point, 37 percent. So, you know, a massive decrease there. It's also changed the stalking and I'm sure the policing as well as technology has developed how's that made a difference yeah I'm sure we've seen those very outdated pictures that are meant to reflect stalking you know you see a woman looking over their shoulder in a dark street with a man following her I mean that just doesn't sum up what stalking is especially with technology becoming more sophisticated you know tracking someone or finding out about them has never been easier it's not just phones or computers you know, tracking someone or finding out about them has never been easier. It's not just phones or computers, you know, tech is everywhere. Cars now have things like GPS,

household appliances, you know, lights and heatings can be controlled remotely. Anything like that can be used as a tool for someone to be stalked. I've been speaking to Katie Bourne. She's the Police and Crime Commissioner for Sussex. She's also the lead on stalking and has actually been a victim of stalking herself. She told me the way people are being stalked has changed over the last few years. Technology has made a massive difference and I think brought stalking into a whole new world during the pandemic because those stalkers who traditionally would have stalked physically were able to really hone their craft and we saw an explosion in cyber stalking so controlling for example the alexas or whatever the house is using to turn on lighting and heating at different times

of the day and night sending obscene images to someone's printer so that it prints out in the middle of the night, hundreds and hundreds of obscene images, being able to access someone's hard drive, deleting photographs. We had one case where a lady had, unfortunately, her child had died, and they were the only photographs she had, and her partner got into the hard drive and deleted them all. I mean, it really is taking it to a whole new level. There's also been an increase in concern from several charities and campaign groups over the past few years. As the use of phones have become so prominent, there's now what they call stalkerware. So this is essentially surveillance software, which gives someone complete access to someone's

phone. So you can see private messages, you can see their GPS location. It even gives someone complete access to someone's phone so you can see private messages you can see their gps location it even gives someone the ability to see and hear through cameras and microphones over the last year the bbc has spoken to women in the us who say that they've been tracked using apple air tags so these are the little button sized devices which are designed to work to locate lost items. Apple says that they take customer safety very seriously. However, as technology develops, we're seeing new ways of it being used by stalkers. Gemma Dunstan, thank you very much for taking us through those figures that have been put together for this special programme

and that analysis as well with those important voices. Your voice is incredibly important to this too. Kate's message to say, the number of people stalked for years without anything being done is appalling. It took 10 years for the police to take mine seriously, and I knew I'd not be alone in this, but the statistics are terrifying. And just to go over those again, which have been found for this programme with the BBC's shared data unit, charge rates have fallen despite the numbers going up. And yes, the way the numbers have been counted on this has changed. But still, even with that, you'd expect the data to perhaps show the other direction.

But charge rates have fallen from 11% to 6%. Well, later in the programme, I'll be talking to the police officer tasked with being the lead on this, the stalking lead at the National Police Chiefs Council, Deputy Chief Constable Paul Mills. But I should also say we invited the government onto the programme today. No minister or secretary of state was made available for this special programme, marking the anniversary of stalking becoming a separate crime,

again, I should say, in England and Wales, but this was a decision by the Conservatives. But this statement was sent instead. We take our response to stalking extremely seriously, which is why we have doubled the maximum sentence for stalking from five to ten years. In January 2020, we introduced stalking protection orders, you may have heard them referred to as SPOs, for police forces, a new civil order to protect victims of stalking at the earliest possible opportunity. 456 orders were issued in their first year. Last year we

tripled our annual funding to the Susie Lamplugh's Trust National Stalking Helpline and we are continuing to fund it this year. Well hopefully when I do next speak to a minister I can put some of these data points that we have found to them, whoever they are for us at that point. But one question we wanted to answer in this special programme today is what efforts have been made to get to the crux of the problem, to stop stalkers from stalking. Here on Womazow, we have been granted extremely rare access to one of the three specialist stalking units around the UK. These relatively new units bring together police, probation, health and victim support all under one roof. The centres at the moment are in Cheshire, Hampshire and the one I visited, London.

The centre deals with cases of high concern. And so far this year, 90% of victims that have been supported are women. The unit which is called the Stalking Threat Assessment Centre or STAC for short has been running for four years. The first person I met when I visited it was Detective Inspector Martin Murphy. He's the police lead in this unit and is also a tactical policy advisor for the Met Police on stalking. I asked him what a normal day is like for him. So a typical day involves a kind of trawl over recent stalking cases that have been reported in the last 24 hours or so. So my team will review the cases, highlight any potential concern or any notable characteristics in the case,

the next step is to go to the daily management meeting and discuss the cases or discuss the notable cases. In some instances, the team will simply provide investigative advice to the officer leading the investigation or risk management advice, and in other cases, that advice will be conjoined with referrals to the partner agencies within STAC so it might be the case that perhaps the perpetrator has some kind of mental health difficulties that might give one of my officers the cause to make a referral to the NHS partners within STAC in order for them to have a look into their databases to research the suspect or the perpetrator

and to see if the NHS hold any information which might illuminate the case and move the case along. Stalking protection orders were introduced in January 2020 to police forces in Wales and England. Civil orders which aim to protect victims. It's a criminal offence to breach the terms of an order are they working? I believe they are working yes so the Met Police are actively pushing the obtaining these orders we now have well over 200 stalkers in London subject to these orders in

addition to dozens of stalkers that are subject to restraining orders and I don't know the stats but many that are subject to criminal behaviour orders as well so they're one of a variety of tools really at our disposal. Well it's also interesting to look at the data around the number of stalking incidents since 2018 to 2019 a quadrupling of the number of incidents since then and I don't know what you you put that down to and how would you say you're coping with that? A key factor in the in the huge increase is a is an alteration a change in the way that the Home Office classified stalking cases so in 2020 I think in around April, the Home Office brought in a new rule in which they stipulated that harassment cases in the midst of a domestic context would

now be classified as stalking for crime recording purposes. That's separate from how the CPS or how the courts deem the case eventually throughout the criminal justice process in terms of what offence the stalker gets charged with. But in terms of how stalking cases are reported by the frontline officers, that change by the Home Office in April 2020 meant that lots more cases that were traditionally recorded or viewed as harassment born out of a domestic context were now almost overnight changed to stalking cases for crime recording purposes so that is that is that good is that useful for the way that we try and tackle this to stop it because that's ultimately

your goal i i think it is yeah yeah i think it think it alerts officers to the unwanted nature of stalking. One of the ways that we try to educate frontline officers in ESTAC in terms of the outreach work we do and the training we give to frontline officers is for them to identify stalking as behaviour that is fixated, obsessive, unwanted and repeated. The Home Office Counting Rule and essentially had the function of drawing a line in the sand to say that this contact this unwanted contact whether you call it harassment or whatever if it happens after the relationship has ended it ought to be viewed as stalking so it helps officers in that way to identify stalking i think that was di martin

murphy we can now hear from the probation and health teams which work alongside Martin and make up the stalking unit. Hi my name's Alex I'm a probation officer working at the Stalking Threat Assessment Centre. And so a normal day for you would be what? So I'm not a morning person so I will just about be able to get into the office at 9 o'clock with my coffee. And then I will start by looking at kind of what's happened overnight. So police will send me reports of things that have happened either kind of late yesterday, early this morning or overnight. So that might be breaches of restraining orders, new kind of allegations of stalking. We probably know the person the best out of all the agencies.

We see them normally once a week. So we're quite active with that person. allegations of stalking we probably know the person the best out of all the agencies we see them normally once a week so we're quite active with that person so we'll have a lot of information so you know if police can't find someone we might be able to say oh well we've got this phone number for them or their mum lives here you know and kind of steer the way i'll then speak with the probation officer and explain what's happened and kind of talk to them about what they should do so sometimes it's quite straightforward and it might be so serious that I'll say this person actually needs to go back to prison and the probation officer can do that but often it's a bit more blurry it's an allegation it's not been proven yet those kind of things so

it's okay well what can we do in the interim to manage the risk and I think that's where we probably add the most value because a probation officer would know yes this person needs to go back to prison but it's about thinking about the specific risks in that case and how they could be managed before that's dealt with by the courts. Do you find it challenging working in close proximity with stalkers and especially as a woman it's an interesting question because honestly like i've had other jobs and i've been really rubbish at them and i think i'm quite good at this and i love it and it is the best thing i've ever done but it's not it is difficult um and I think you know sometimes you think am I really am I doing the right thing you know there's a lot of self-doubt um it's true like a lot of

perpetrators are male and a lot of probation officers are female but I think for me I always try and hold in mind like if you think about the worst thing you've ever done that's not who you are is it that's not all you are and is it? That's not all you are. And that's kind of what I try and hold in mind, I guess, when I'm working with someone, and I try and show them what is good about them and that's what you want to build on with someone. You kind of want to give them a mirror and say,

look, these are the good things, you're not just the bad thing. Let's make it the bad thing doesn't happen again. I suppose it's also just that concern that if someone is like that, that maybe it could transfer to you. So that is a concern that a practitioner might have, but it's actually quite rare, and it's something that doesn't happen that much, but we can support.

I think something I really try and make sure practitioners understand is that actually stalking is very unlikely to transfer to them but if it is happening to them to take it as seriously as you would with any other victim. My name's Dr Alan Underwood and I'm a clinical psychologist at the Stalking Threat Assessment Centre. And what would a typical day involve? So we have I guess there's probably no typical day really but I guess it's going to be a mix of giving advice to police officers on cases that have come through overnight. We'll also consult with probation staff around management and kind of really giving them a psychological understanding of stalking behaviour. What's that like, working with stalkers?

Interesting. I think it's a very interesting group to work with, challenging in some ways, but in some ways not more challenging than another group who are in distress. And I guess our role within that is to help the person understand their behaviour. Should we think of stalkers as being in distress as unwell? I think because they're such a mixed group there are some individuals who engage in stalking who will have a diagnostic and meet a diagnosis for a mental health disorder which will really be driving their behaviour and for that group we really need to ensure they're effectively treated and being seen to services. For another group it may be much more of a mixed picture so there may be elements around their ability to regulate their emotions, to tolerate distress and often from the

work we've seen is that stalking is a very much a goal-directed behavior for the person engaging in it they're trying to achieve something either you know that might be connection with another individual it might be to repair a relationship that they feel should continue or it might be to avoid something as well so to avoid that feeling of loneliness of disconnection with others so there's often a real function that drives their behavior and part of our work is really to understand that and draw on the evidence based tools that we that we have for psychological treatments to try and you know leave that leave that person in a place where they're able to manage that in a workable way that that doesn't

harm themselves or or others and what do you think is missed or happens differently if a health professional isn't involved in this line of work? I think one of the things that often gets missed is sometimes the very subtle kind of elements of where there is a mental health problem, particularly those individuals who perhaps have sometimes an encapsulated delusional belief around the victim which often when that person's presenting to services and to professionals they

are often very well put together in terms of they're able to care for themselves they're not experiencing perhaps some of the signs and symptoms of psychosis that perhaps other individuals might experience things like hearing voices or seeing things but it's this seam of behavior and this seam of thinking that is really rigid that really defies any kind of sort of logic i guess and this group can also present as very plausible because for them that's their reality they they believe exactly what is happening and that can be very difficult to pick up so I think that's one big area that health has an element into and I think the other part is the broader psychological understanding away from the legal definition

about perhaps what drives it, what the risk factors might be that we can draw on from the research around what might lead to an escalation what are the situations that are perhaps coming up that may put that individual under increased stress, where those coping strategies may reduce and their behaviour may kind of re-emerge. We can have that kind of broader, I guess, kind of view across the lifespan of that individual as well and hopefully by doing that we can provide a better service to to everyone across across the board and across

agencies a lot of the focus in the centre is on the perpetrator but the susie lamplugh trust make up the victim advocates at estac i asked the head of operations sarah louise edwards what role victim advocates play so the advocates are in place to ensure that the victims get everything they need from the service and also of course to ensure that we can give that specialist support to the victims in whatever area they might need as part of the impact that stalking has. Because this has been commissioned, this service broadly, to deal with perpetrators. So how do you make it that the victims and the balance is right, the victim's voice is heard? So it's been commissioned to deal with perpetrators but

to ensure that we are keeping victims safe and of course the victim's voice is central to that. So we wouldn't necessarily know how best to deal with the perpetrator if we haven't spoken to the victim about what the impact is and what experiences she's having. Often victims are unaware of what may be a potential, they may not be aware of their rights in terms of the information they're given and so our job really is to ensure that the victim knows about that and that all of the other agencies are considering the victim before any actions are taken. Do you find it challenging to ever bring the victim as much as they should be into this,

you know, coming up against the other members of the centre, the other stakeholders? Yes, we do. Within STAC particularly, we of course have a mutual understanding and respect of all of our different services, but the role of an advocate is a tough role because our job really is to continually be that person saying but what about this and have we thought about that and have we made sure the victims are aware and have we consulted about what they need from us so it is a difficult role and you know our job essentially is to challenge and to push and to check and almost hold to account when things are not quite going as they should. But that's the role, really. Do victims know what they want?

No, not always. Many people come to us who don't even say the word stalking. So they'll say, this is happening, or I'm not sure if you can help with this, or I'm not clear about what this might be. And stalking is massively misunderstood anyway. ddim yn siŵr os gallwch chi helpu gyda hyn, neu dydw i ddim yn glir am beth y gallai hyn fod, ac mae storkio'n rhywbeth sy'n cael ei ddysgu'n fawr. Ond na, nid yw'n gwneud hynny, ac yn amlwg maen nhw'n cymaint o amlwg o'u hawliau o ran y cod y ddynion, er enghraifft, neu beth fydd yn ar gael iddyn nhw os ydyn nhw angen cefnogaeth ar gyfer eu heillyd eu hunain, neu os

ydyn nhw angen cefnogaeth o'u awdurdod lleol o ran ymwneud â'r cyfnod. Felly, mae fy ngwaith own health or if they need some support from their local authority in relation to housing. So our job really is to make sure that they are aware of what may be available to assist them and then help to steer them through, particularly in relation to criminal justice processes and what that might look like. And we can really help the victim to understand what that might look like. Do you think this model works? Do you think it should be more widely used and rolled out across the UK? Yes, so we've got some great examples of cases that have had really different outcomes to what they might have had if they'd have not been dealt with in a stacked model. It's not perfect, we haven't made the, you know, got the right outcome for every single person in every single

case and of course we can only work with a small amount of the big overall percentage of stalking cases that are coming through London but of course we want to see integrated models like this across the country and we want to see for victims to really be that central point in all of those conversations and all of those agencies kind of pooling together their knowledge to get that best risk management plan out of that. Sarah Louise Edwards there from the Susie Lamplew Trust. And like I said, this is one of three units across the UK. There are now nine policing areas around the country

where pilots are taking place. So it was very interesting and important to get access to those particular individuals doing this work together as one unit. Many messages coming in. Thank you for taking the time and a lot of you sharing. I should also say, which I do usually say, you don't have to give your real name or a name, and especially when we're talking about something as sensitive as this.

The message here is, stalkers are brilliant at convincing others that they're justified. I think the hardest thing about being stalked is that my friends in our community felt sorry for him. He fuelled it. I left him. So I was treated as though I deserved it. Another one here. I'm currently a victim of stalking. Last year I was dating a man and unfortunately when I ended it he began harassing and stalking me. I got the police involved and he was warned to never contact me again. This seemed to do the trick until last week, 13 months later, he left chocolates and a note on my doorstep. I contacted the police again.

They're going to speak to him again and the next step would be seeking a restraining order. The police have been excellent so far. Low-level stalking, another message here, is distressing as well. I ended a relationship over 36 years ago since then he has turned up in my area endless times even though he lives miles away he goes to the pub opposite my street which is a cul-de-sac there's no avoiding it sends me birthday cards and notes even though I've moved house and kept my name off the council list I don't feel frightened by him so it's not as bad as it can be with some people but it's still very upsetting he's completely oblivious to the fact that his attentions are very unwelcome an anonymous email as well and i'll try and come back to some more of these messages many as i say coming in i was

stalked by the same man for 26 years police attitudes have thankfully changed for the better and a few years ago the stalker was interviewed and told not to approach me i think the length of time as well as the fact he suffered psychotic episodes helped i was also given priority if i ever saw him on the street ex-partner is a theme here but there's also those of you getting in touch saying about what's happened with those you don't know or strangers or people that you've only come into contact with a few times so that you know there are some patterns in some ways and in other ways there aren't but my next guest can speak directly to this experience she's the former itv news anchor and now a true crime podcast host isla traquair in her day job isla is used to confronting murderers traveling to dangerous places but it was in a

quiet village in Wiltshire where her stalking ordeal took place, which has seen her forced from her home, living in fear and out of a suitcase. It is the stuff of nightmares, you buy your new home, you move in, excited about the local area and making your home your own, and then your next door neighbour begins what can only be described as a horrifying relationship with you. In August this year, Isla's next door neighbour, Jonathan Barrett, was found guilty of stalking. This followed what Isla called a seven month period of terror from March to September of 2021. Mr Barrett was ordered to do 300 hours of community service, pay £715 in costs. He'd also been handed a restraining order and told not to contact Isla or to enter or look into her property for one year.

But he was not sent to prison. Isla Traquair joins me now. Isla, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you for having me. I wanted to thank you, first of all, because I can only imagine talking about this isn't the easiest. Yeah, it's difficult. You know, I'm a journalist. I work in radio as well. And it's tough. And, you know, it's the first time I've talked about something that's really personal. And it's probably one of the worst things that's ever happened to me. So, but if my story can help even one person, then it's worth it. I know that's a big driving force for you today. And I also appreciate that there isn't one event or one moment where you could say, this is stalking. It's quite a unique crime, isn't it?

It's a ramping up of incidents. And to come to your story, I understand there was unusual behaviour before you'd even moved into the property. And then one day your neighbour appeared in your house, completely unannounced, offering you a sandwich. Yeah, yeah. So so there was a lot of things something happened actually when I had the sale agreed but hadn't moved in and he blocked my car in I was with my mum who's disabled and had a walking aid and he insisted I had to go down to the house and I said you know my mum needs to get

in the car and he accused me of trespassing in his garden and letting my dog fall and I said I haven't got the keys yet I can't get into my own garden so that bothered me that was a red flag but a couple of weeks later I went knocked on the door and his partner is well I thought wife long-term partner answered the door I was appeased he came around he apologized he said I've never done anything aggressive like that before and that seemed to be it and that was the October and then the January I got the keys I was quite pleased that he was being friendly. But then it built and built and built to kind of some uncomfortable comments, a natural interest, always seeming to be there. Whenever I came out the front or the back, he would be there.

So I sort of gradually tried to withdraw. And that's when more and more alarming things happen. You mentioned the sandwich. I mean, to some people, it might sound silly, like, oh, your neighbour made you a sandwich. But in the context of what had been going on, he'd climbed over the back wall, entered my home through the conservatory, which I hadn't locked. I was in the middle of doing building work. I was in and out of the house. There was nothing to steal. And then he said, you haven't eaten. So, you know, he has to be watching me. And I said, well, it's fine. I've got some food in the fridge.

But he insisted he knew what I ate. He said, said you eat salmon don't you he I think he may have asked something about or suggested a butcher and I may have said I don't eat red meat but he kind of clocked that and then he went away and made it and came back and watched me eat it and I was just uncomfortable but I tried to sort of deal with that by writing a thank you note, which his partner would also read it, saying thanks for making me the sandwich. And it built and built and built. I had to tell the builders, please don't let him come in if you see him. But on that occasion, I was on my own. I was really quite alarmed.

I had headphones on, listening to podcasts, and there he was in my home. And there was another occasion when you were washing yourself in your kitchen. Your bathroom hadn't been completed yet. It was actually my very first morning waking up there and I had to wash myself in the kitchen sink. And this was at seven in the morning. This is March. It was dark outside. I just washed my face. I was about to take my clothes off. And then I saw him and it wasn't a natural place for him to stand. It was the furthest point away from his house and his garden looking through my conservatory. And I just, I was so shocked. I kind of hit the floor and hid behind

the cabinets. And then after that, I put in, you know, mirror screening, bamboo screening, which then resulted in him hacking my hedge. You know, I don't know how big it is, maybe let's say 10 metre hedge. One thing after another, another. The hedge incident was actually the point where I thought this is enough and I contacted the police. What was that experience like? Contacting the police? Well, I did not contact them until it was absolutely... I'm a crime journalist, so I just was like, oh, well, it's not, you know.

I was trying to, you know, deal with it myself and I didn't want to call the police. I didn't want to be a victim. But I spoke to someone very nice on the phone and they said someone will be in touch. Nothing happened. A couple of days later, he followed me in his van. I tried to sort of get away and go down another route from where our house is. And he followed me and I phoned the police again. And then it was a few days after that. And initially with female community police officers, they were amazing. They heard me,

they took notes, they were with me for two hours, had a plan of action but that plan of action was not carried out the way it was supposed to be I moved out with the thought of the police are going to go around he's not going to react well to this they were going to inform him that I was going to be putting in security cameras and a fence and it didn't happen on the day so I've moved out and I'm like hi has anyone spoken to him yet no and eventually when one officer went around he emailed me and said oh I sat down him and his partner they were nice and polite it's a misunderstanding and I said did you tell him the date of the fence going and he said no you can tell him yourself and I said no I've been advised not to have contact and he said I will not be your go-between and that's when I had to step up and as a journalist as an assertive woman I contact my local counsellor who contacts

an inspector he knows who then gets that's's the only way I managed to push it. Just sorry to break in then, but you had a police officer tell you to speak to the person who was stalking. Yes. And this is after, I mean, I haven't even gone into it. A massive catalogue of things I'd been shouted

and sworn at at that point. I was really scared at this point. By your stalker? Yeah, by the stalker. And I was told that I just needed it. And he said, I will not be your go-between. And how did that make you feel? Horrendous. I felt helpless.

I felt angry. And I think it was someone else suggested to me, you know, contact. I didn't know what to do. And again, it was like madness because of what my job is. I help victims of crime. But you've got a police officer telling you to go talk to your stalker yeah i mean he was didn't believe that it was he was looking at it as a neighborhood dispute and i said this is not a neighborhood dispute

you know and what what happened was he was taken off my case and i think it was an inspector he actually apologized and said we should be your go-between that's exactly our job and someone else got put on the case. Because that must have just added to the feeling of not being believed and madness like you say. Yeah and it didn't stop there. I ended up, I'm forwarding on a bit, but I ended up leaving my home and I ended up going, I had to stay with friends and moving around and I ran out of favours so I went back to the states where I used to live and I moved in with my brother for a bit. And then I heard

that they were thinking about the CPS were going to drop the case because I was in the States and they were like it's not a problem anymore. So it took me, I wrote to the Chief Constable of Wiltshire. I'm sure they'll say that wasn't the reason it was you know, it stayed on track but it did end up staying on track. The CPS refused to pay for my travel.

I requested in February that I could give evidence via video so I didn't have to fly back from the States. I think three weeks before the trial that still hadn't been granted. I had to pay out of my own pocket which I couldn't afford. Thousands to fly back. I was gaslit during the case. Half the evidence wasn't given to the barrister. She actually apologised to me afterwards and said, you've been badly let down. I got gaslit for being articulate. You know, it's a defence agent's job, but he was saying, you're a journalist,

you're good with words, aren't you? He was criticising who I am as a person. I wasn't a good victim. He was convicted? He was convicted, yeah. How are you now? I'm not okay. I'm not okay. I'm not okay.

It's devastated me who I am. I'm a confident, outgoing, positive person. I was someone who viewed every day as an adventure. I was brave. I've confronted murderers and that didn't scare me anything near the terror I went through living in this idyllic countryside home. The cost to me financially is huge. I can't even begin to clock up what that is. I can't live in my home. I can't currently sell my home. The nightmares, I've got PTSD. I have been going to therapy recently, which is helping.

I'm having EMDR eye movement desensitization reprogramming but I find going to the shops it's not like a rational thing of I don't think he's going to jump out from a corner or anything like that but I just feel unsafe in the world and it's shaking me to my core and you know I've said before if someone was robbed every day if he went into my, if someone was robbed every day, if he went into my home and stole an item every day, he would have been arrested, charged and through the court system with a more severe penalty than what happened to me. But what he stole from me, you know, stalking victims are serial victims. And what a stalker

takes from you, you cannot get back. And that is your sense of safety. I'm essentially a potential victim for the rest of my life because stoppers stalkers don't just stop and that's what i heard in the package earlier what do victims want we just want them to stop i know you know i massively appreciate it we all do you're coming to talk thank you and so candidly i literally require thank you very much indeed uh i should say although the government were not able to make a minister available for today's programme, the police were. And actually, just to Isla's point, we're hearing now from Paul Mills,

Deputy Chief Constable for Wiltshire Police, so it's relevant. I do put a question to him about Isla, but also the National Police Chiefs' Council lead for stalking and harassment. The MPCC coordinates policing across the UK, and I started by asking why the rate of reported stalkers charged by the police has halved at the same time as reported cases have gone up. Well, we've been doing a lot of work to firstly increase the number of recorded stalking offences. Work back in 2017 by the Inspectorates for Policing and also the Crown Prosecution Service

showed that stalking was significantly under-recorded. So certainly during the course of this sort of last five-year period, what we've seen is the number of recorded stalking offences go from around 10,000 odd in 2017 up to now nearly 120,000 cases. But as you rightly say, the actual recorded rate in terms of outcomes, it does differ across different forces. But what we haven't seen is the outcome rate continues to stay stable during that period of time. Just so I'm familiar with the terms, when you say outcome rate, do you mean charge, the number of people who were charged? So the police responsibility is for charging offences and also offences which don't actually go through

the criminal justice system per se. What we see across forces is the rate is anywhere between five to ten percent. That clearly is not where we want it to be at the moment. So we're doing a lot of work with the Crown Prosecution Service to look at where cases are actually dropping off in what we call the attrition rate, whereby somebody reports a case to us, where are the points where actually those cases actually drop off such that we're not able to take more cases through the criminal justice system and get justice for victims which they deserve. It's really, it's pretty bad, isn't it though? Figures analysed by the BBC shared data unit found charges rate of fall from 11% to 6% in the last two years.

Yes, that is really worrying. And it also does mirror what is the position across the criminal justice system at the moment, which is a policing issue, but a wider criminal justice issue. Some of this has been impacted by the pandemic, where we've seen delays in the court system. But equally, taking that out, we want to get to a position whereby we're able to get a better outcome rate for victims who do report these really important crimes to us. It's nothing to do with criminal justice rates or courts at the moment, this bit. This is whether the police charge or not yes so that the rates as i say are around five to ten percent and we accept um that they are not where we want them to be yeah so so so why why are they there why are they going down like that well as i say the impact on the pandemic

we have a very close relationship with the crown prosecution service and when a case is actually reported to us um what we look to do is firstly understand what the victim is saying to us we have to investigate that and then we have to approach the crown prosecution service in these cases for charging decisions um some of that has been impacted by the pandemic um but what we are doing sorry just before we introduce sorry before you move on, are you saying, just if I put myself in the situation, that if I came to you and reported this, reported a case of stalking, the police officer I'm then dealing with goes to the prosecution side of things and says, we've got this case. How does the pandemic then stop them being charged, the person I'm accusing of. So what happens when someone reports a case to us is, firstly, we know that it is very difficult for somebody to actually come forward in these cases.

The research will tell us it takes up to 100 times before somebody will actually come forward and actually report this to us. Believe me, at Woman's Hour, we know that. We've covered that. We're covering that in this programme. But once I'm actually there, just taking me as a fictitious example, you just said the pandemic has caused a problem here. And I'm trying to... A lot of people blame the pandemic for lots of different things.

Why has the pandemic stopped charge rates of stalkers if someone's already come forward to the police? Well, what I'm saying is that is potentially one of the contributory factors here in relation to how the police actually works with the Crown Prosecution Service. But it's not the total story around this. What I've said to you is we accept that actually the charge rate and the summons rate for these offences is not where it needs to be at the moment.

I'm not trying to keep cussing across you, but what I still haven't understood is why. What do you put it down to? You're looking at this. Why is it low? Well, the evidence will show us that there will be potential evidential difficulties in the case. And some of that may be due to the fact,

linking it back to the pandemic point, is when that may be due to the fact, linking it back to the pandemic point, is when we actually do get to the point of actually charging, it is then taking a long time to actually get somebody through the court system. But we're working very closely with partners in the criminal justice system to free up the criminal justice system so we can bring about justice more quickly. So is someone somewhere in this chain, wherever it is in the country, deciding because of court delays not to go ahead with cases that would in normal circumstances go ahead and be charged? No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that if it takes a long time for somebody to actually go through the justice system,

which we have seen as part of this, then actually what that means is that actually the victim themselves may start to lose confidence actually in the process. Because ideally, what we want to be in a position to be able to do across the criminal justice system, from the point of report to the police service, then through to the wider criminal justice system into the court process, is to be able to bring about justice for victims really quickly. That's really important in terms of safeguarding, but it's important in terms of their wider confidence

in the justice system. And we know that across the justice system at the moment, often justice is not being delivered as quickly as it can be. So because there's delays, you're saying that victims may just pull out as opposed to it doesn't go forward for the fact that you haven't got enough officers to collect enough evidence? This is multifaceted in relation to what the issues may be.

And that's why we are working with the Crown Prosecution Service to understand what we call is the attrition rate. So from the point where somebody comes forward and reports um stalking to us um through to then actually taking it through the criminal justice system we're trying to understand with the crown prosecution service got work ongoing at the moment is why is it that cases are not going through in a greater number um which we would want on behalf of victims so some. So some of the answer is that you don't know. You don't know why it's really bad at 6%. We're looking to understand that at the moment, Emma.

So what we've also introduced in this period... I know, but saying I don't know is also just helpful, perhaps, to people listening and especially a lot of our women listeners. We're looking to better understand what the issues are. Do you think that some of the victims who do come forward might not like dealing with some of your police officers? Absolutely. We've done extensive training in the last number of years,

firstly with our first point of contact, which is into police control rooms, to actually be able to identify that stalking behaviour is actually taking place. And then what will happen is a police officer will attend on all occasions and their job is to work with the victim to understand where the threat is in these cases, because we know that with stalking, it very much is around fixation and obsession. And if we don't get the safeguarding right at the early opportunity, the potential for these cases to

escalate very quickly, that history will tell us is really significant. That's what should happen. But the reality is also different on that front for some of those who do eventually come forward. I mean, we've been talking to a woman called Isla Traquair on this programme, whose stalker was convicted earlier this year, actually took place in Wiltshire where you're the deputy chief constable. And she said while her initial contact with the local police was fantastic she says another officer gaslit her and she didn't feel she was protected or being heard by the police with what she was saying what is your response to that well I'm really sorry to hear that what we're trying to do my job is to work with the 43 chief constables in England and Wales to actually

improve the response to policing and there was an inspectorate report back in 2017 that identified firstly the number of stalking cases which were being recorded and indeed reported was too low and then the police response was not acceptable so we're trying to work across those 43 police forces to actually improve standards. And that's some of the challenges that have come out from the history of this. We've now had the legislation for 10 years. His office has been able to effectively understand the threat and risk which actually exists in stalking cases. So we've worked very closely around the acronym FOUR, which is around fixation, obsession and wanted and repeated behaviour. And across those 43 forces, we're trying to ensure that officers actually understand the risk that actually sits in these cases.

Do you think there's also just an issue with the relationship that some women feel they can't have with the police? I'm just thinking about earlier this month. I know you will have looked at this, Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary has in a report that was commissioned after the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah Everard by a serving Metropolitan Police officer, said hundreds if not thousands of corrupt officers were working in England and Wales, but also uncovered a culture of misogyny

and predatory behaviour towards not just female police officers, but staff and members of the public. How damaging has that been, do you think, for the relationship between some women and some police? Well, that is exceptionally damaging. And we take these reports really, really seriously. We're absolutely 100% committed. I know that you've had Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blythe on the programme before.

We're committed to rooting out misogyny within policing and any toxic culture that actually exists. And particularly bringing it back to these offences, we are committed to a service to improving. And I would encourage any woman or indeed man who believes

they're being stalked to come forward because it's only when we understand the full picture of the stalking behavior. I know, but they might not. They might not. I know that you're on and I'm happy you're talking to me and to our listeners, but with the 6% charge rate and then reports of some officers watching porn at work, stopping women that they deem to be attractive in cars, a practice known as booty patrols. I'm not painting all police with this brush, but this is an official report looking across several forces.

You can understand why some women really just don't want to be anywhere near the police right now. Yeah, and I'll say I've been a police officer for 27 years. I'm appalled by the findings of a Majesty's Inspectorate Constabulary Fire and Rescue. Do you recognise it in your force? Well, I also, on behalf of my force, I deal with professional standards. And I'm not the lead nationally for the response to that report.

But what I do recognise is the exceptionally committed people in the main that want to do a job for the public and bring about the very best job for the public and bring about the very best outcomes for the public who were victims of crime however again i'm equally not blind to the reports that we've seen in this last year do you recognize any of the problem do you recognize that there's one thing to say you there's one thing to say you recognize it's also very important to say that most people in the main are not like that. But some of these descriptions, watching porn at work, have you seen officers doing that in your own police force?

No, I haven't. But what I have had within my own police force in the last year is we've had two members of our organisation that we investigated in relation to abusive position, who ultimately did go to prison as a result of that. But they are the minority. And what I think it's really important in this conversation and debate to say is firstly, in relation to that minority, there is absolutely no place whatsoever for them in policing. And all they do is they cause damage in relation to the reputation of policing and the work that we're trying to do but critically back to your question um it absolutely if i was a member of the public and i was to read some of those headlines

i would be i would be there thinking what sort of response am i actually going to get uh perhaps being stalked here um for the last six or seven occasions um can I have the confidence to come forward and the police will actually deal with my crime the way that I'd want them to? My experience is across those deeply committed professionals who are the majority, they are committed to making sure that we do try and provide the very best service we can. And that is an important message. We also have a lot of police officers and police staff who listen to this programme and get in touch to say that they do and represent their views. Just finally, if I can, if you are listening, anyone listening out there who suspects they

might be being stalked, what is the best way to gather evidence to support your case? What can the police use and what can the police not use? What we would ask them to do is firstly come forward at the very earliest opportunity. We would ask them to keep a record and a diary of what's actually occurring. But we also know, working with the different charities that we work with, and also from our own data, the impact of cyberstalking is significant as well. So we would ask them to ensure that they don't do things such as closing down accounts or whatever, because they can be very, very valuable evidence to us. We would ask them to come forward with that information at the earliest opportunity so we can use our professional investigative skills to firstly do two things, gather that evidence at the

earliest opportunity. But secondly, also consider what are the safeguarding considerations? How can we help this person to keep safe? And things such as stalking protection orders, those are the sorts of things that we should be looking at to make sure that we can put that in place while the criminal investigation takes place. So don't delete accounts, keep everything that you can that could be used. What about having cameras up at your home or having that sort of footage? Is that permissible? Yes, absolutely. Things such as cameras, etc. can be helpful. But also if they haven't got the appropriate password protection around them, what we can see and we do see in some of these cases is stalkers will be very innovative and

potentially will look to exploit the fact that individuals have not protected their data and therefore that can put them at risk. So, yes, but make sure you're also protecting yourself in relation to putting those security barriers in place as well, would be my advice. Paul Mills there, the Deputy Chief Constable for Wiltshire Police and the National Police Chief Counsel for Stalking and Harassment. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has

she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.