Woman's Hour - Tennis icon Serena Williams, Recruiting women to the armed forces, Afghan women radio, Stem cell donors, Women and bodybuilding

Episode Date: August 10, 2022

It looks like Serena Williams is leaving tennis. She's won 23 grand slam titles and four Olympic golds but has suggested it's time to move on. She's made the announcement in Vogue, where she's said retirement - "causes a great deal of pain. I hate it." So she hasn't explicitly said she's giving up but she's given a large hint, saying she wants to focus on her family. Jessica Creighton speaks to former tennis player, Jo Durie and sports journalist Natasha Henry about the tennis icon.The Armed Forces are not reaching their targets in terms of recruiting women. The MOD is hoping to increase the proportion of women in the armed forces to 30% by 2030 but they have not met the target set for 2020. One of the barriers to change is thought to be visibility - new research has found the UK public knows little or nothing about female veterans. Lauren Godier-McBard led the research and Ria Jackson is an RAF veteran and founder of the blog The V word.BBC Afghan have a new radio programme called 'Women' which focuses on women and girls, especially those in rural areas, in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It's presented by Shazia Haya in Pashto, and Aalia Farzan in Dari who fled their home country last August when the Taliban retook control. It aims to inform, educate and empower its listeners. Faranak Amidi is the presenter of World Service's The Fifth Floor. She spoke to Shazia and Aalia. This spring more than two million people had registered to become potential blood stem-cell donors in the UK. That’s regarded as a milestone by DKMS, which is the biggest stem cell-register in the UK. And it gives one mother in Northern Ireland some much-needed hope. Anne Greer’s youngest son is in a critical condition in hospital. Daniel was fit and well, but in May after complaining of back pain that was coming and going, he was diagnosed with leukaemia. The family want people around the world to donate blood to see if their stem cells are a life-saving match for Daniel. On Woman’s Hour we talk about girls a lot, their safety, their mental and physical health but we don’t often talk to them. For an occasional series called 'Girl’s World' Ena Miller went to talk to groups of girls at their schools in their friendship groups, not necessarily about the big ‘issues’ but about what makes them laugh, who they laugh with…what they care about. Today, India and Alice are both aged 13 and they live in Stroud. Today we're going to be talking about women in the world of elite bodybuilding where in the UK alone there will be more than 200 female bodybuilding shows this year. Kate Bishop - co-creator of the book Core which includes 42 photos of ‘muscly women’ doing what the book describes as 'subverting the archetype of femininity' and one of the bodybuilders in the book, Louise Plumb, discuss. Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Natasha Henry Interviewed Guest: Jo Durie Interviewed Guest: Laura Godier-McBard Interviewed Guest: Ria Jackson Interviewed Guest: Shazia Haya Interviewed Guest: Aalia Farzan Interviewed Guest: Anne Greer Reporter: Ena Miller Interviewed Guest: Kate Bishop Interviewed Guest: Louise Plumb

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. A pleasure to have your company. Now, let's start this morning with sport and this quote. I never wanted to have to choose between tennis and a family. Those are the words of tennis icon Serena Williams, who has hinted she might soon retire without actually using the word retirement. At 40 years old, it's clear Serena still loves tennis

and the decision to evolve away from the sport, as she puts it, is a very difficult one. So our question to you this morning, just how difficult is it to walk away from a career that you love and why did you do it? What helped you decide? How did your life change? Let us know. Remember, we're on WhatsApp now, so you can send us voice notes, pictures and videos as well. So save this number to your phone, 03700 100 444.

That's 03700 100 444. Remember that data charges may apply. You can still get in contact with us in all the old ways as well via text on 84844. Texts are charged at your standard message rate. And on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Also this morning, with the Ministry of Defence struggling to recruit more women into the armed forces as planned, new research suggests one of the barriers could be the lack of awareness of women veterans. We'll be speaking to a woman who used to be in the RAF and wants to raise the profile of who she calls the invisible population. Plus, we're going to be talking about muscles on women.

And now it's not something that we often discuss here on Woman's Hour, but how are women with muscular builds viewed within society? Do muscly women go against the stereotypical view of femininity? We'll be talking to a bodybuilder who loves her muscles, and I've seen a picture of her. She has a lot of them and feels happier as a result. Also, how one mother is hoping to find a life-saving stem cell match for her critically ill son after a worldwide appeal. But first this morning, as I mentioned, it looks like Serena Williams is leaving tennis. She's won, get this, 23 Grand Slam singles titles. That's more than any other woman in the open era.

She's also won four Olympic gold medals, but it seems like it's time for her to move on. She's written this announcement in Vogue where she says retirement, and I quote, causes a great deal of pain. I hate it. Now, interestingly, she hasn't actually explicitly said that she's retiring from tennis, but instead she wants to view this as a transition or evolution as she puts it to focus on her family but to be honest that sounds like a pretty big hint doesn't it um she recently won her first singles match in over a year and in the press conference after the game was asked about what motivates her at this point in your career or your life what is it it that continues to drive you or keeps you hungry in the sport? I don't know. I guess there's just a light at the end of the tunnel.

What is that like? I don't know. I'm getting closer to the light. Yeah, so that's like, lately that's been it for me. I can't wait to get to that light. I know you're joking, but can you? I'm not joking. Okay, so then explain to me what the light is to you, what the light represents. Freedom. Yeah.

I love playing, though. It's amazing, but, you know, it's like I can't do this forever. Well, Serena sounded in pretty good spirits there, didn't she? Let's speak to former player Joe Jury and Natasha Henry, who's a sports journalist. Great to speak to you both. Good morning. Let's start with you, Joe. Now, Serena is just an icon of the sport, isn't she? How do you sum up just how much she's achieved on the court? Well, I mean, that's difficult to do because it's been such a long career.

She won her first Grand Slam in 99 at the US Open. Wow. And the last one she won in 2017 at the Australian, when she was pregnant, by the way, which is pretty amazing. And, you know, in between all those other Grand Slams that you pointed out, just sort of year after year, I mean, for a couple of decades, really, she was almost unplayable.

She was so good. It was, you know, difficult for anybody to get a win against her so if anybody did they knew they had played you know sort of tremendous tennis yeah and a win rate of 71 percent how big of a loss would she be to the sport of tennis if this is actually what it seems to be and this is her retirement speech well Well, yes. I mean, there's typical Serena, isn't it? I mean, she obviously loves competing so much she just can't bear to say the word retirement. She just doesn't want to.

I can understand that. Playing in front of, you know, 25,000 people, the thrill of it, the way she, you know, goes about her tennis, which is full of emotion. I mean, that Serena roar, that come on when she's playing is something else. No one else in the game has it. I think she's the one player. I don't know whether she wants to win so badly or she hates losing so badly.

You know, her attitude to it all is just absolutely fantastic and Natasha she's given us so many incredible moments on the tennis court but at 40 years old I suppose we knew this day was going to come eventually didn't we but how surprised were you to see that piece in the Vogue um I wasn't surprised because Serena's always been the kind of athlete, the kind of person who does things on her terms, on her schedule. So the fact that she made this announcement in a fashion magazine as opposed to a sports magazine or to a sports journalist, I'm not surprised at all. This is peak Serena, always surprising us. She wants to do it her way, doesn't she? One of the interesting quotes in that Vogue piece was, as I said, I never wanted to have to choose

between tennis and a family. I don't think it's fair. If I was a guy, I wouldn't be writing this because I'd be out there playing and winning while my wife was doing the physical labour of expanding our family. What did you make of that part? I mean, as a woman who's the same age as her,

who works in a very male-dominated industry that means you travel and you have a weird schedule, I completely relate to it. And I think there's an expectation on women, especially female athletes, to take this time out to have kids before they're of a certain age. You know, and she's saying I'm not following your rules you wanted me to be a mum you wanted me to be a tennis player I'm going to

be both and I think she's a really good example for for girls like me for girls like you for anyone who's at that age who can have kids and also have a career to say that you can have both if you know how both fulfill you yeah Jo is it is it difficult for a career to say that you can have both if you know how both fulfill you yeah joe is it is it difficult for a woman to mix family and professional sport particularly in tennis where uh you go on tour for most of the year don't you well exactly so difficult and there are a few mothers on tour now um but you know how much it changes your body your your ligaments your strength and trying to get back you know to peak condition it it takes a while and it does I think sort of change your timing of your shots the way you recover from matches there's just so much going on for a top

class athlete it's very difficult yeah that's actually it's obviously very physically demanding tennis but also mentally tough might have that played a bit of a kind of role in her decision oh I I would guess I don't know Serena personally but I would guess a hundred percent it did I think people underestimate the emotional kind of effort that athletes, sports people put into their job. And in terms of how that affects their personal life, if we look at footballers who move all around the world, imagine if you're the child bearer and you're travelling, as you said, throughout, what, eight, nine months of the year? You know, it's a really good message to all of us. And Sasha, how significant is it that she's a really good message to all of us and Sasha how significant is it that

she's a black woman in a sport of predominantly white athletes who's managed to achieve as much as she has I mean Jess you know we ain't got enough time for that conversation let's be honest but for me when I was young and I was doing sports and I was watching tv and watching sports there was no Serena Williams for me there was no Rachel Yankee I was watching TV and watching sports there was no Serena Williams for me there was no Rachel Yankee there was no Demi Stokes there was no Lewis Hamilton for me so when I look at my younger generation in my family they have that person that they can see and think I can do this my dad loves to tell the story about how I told him I couldn't do this because there was no black people that did that. Serena is making sure that no child needs to say that now. Lewis and all the other sports

people who are breaking barriers, they are all saying, ignore your colour, it's about your talent. And she's had to deal with a lot on the court and off the court because of the colour of her skin, Natasha. You will remember those dreadful scenes of her being booed at Indian Wells in 2001 alongside her sister Venus. There's been comments about her hair being too wild, comments about her character being too aggressive. How well do you think she's handled all of that stuff as well?

I think she's handled it with a grace that I wish I had in my life. And to be completely honest, her talent possibly has allowed her to be more vocal than the rest of us can be. But what she's saying, and it's not quotes, it's not soundbites, it's feelings, it's emotion. What she's saying is felt by so many people throughout the world. And I think that's what people don't understand. It's not just about colour. It's about gender. It's about culture. It's about socioeconomic status. All of these things that Serena, for me, hit and said to other people, hold on a minute, she can do it, I can do

it. That is her legacy for me. And you alluded to it earlier, but also maybe increasing the diversity in tennis because young black girls, young black boys see someone that they can relate to and think, oh, maybe I can do this too. 100%. I mean, when I was growing up, I didn't know about Althea Gibson. She should have been my mum's role model because of the distance between time between her and say Venus and Serena. So the fact that every generation now has someone that they can look at and say, you can do it, I can do it, is the beauty of it. Jo, I mean, when someone is referred to by their first name and you know immediately who you're talking about, you've made it, haven't you? How would you sum up Serena's legacy?

Yes, well, exactly. She's a global superstar. And, you know, people who don't even watch tennis, really, they know about her. They know her story, how good she is, what a legend she is in the game of tennis. She changed tennis. She made the standards higher of every tennis player on tour. And, you know, the women now who are playing are as good as they are because they had to try and match Serena. She was the one who stood far above everybody else. She really has and given us so many incredible moments on and off the courts Jo Jury thank you very much and Natasha Henry as well

many thanks for coming on to Woman's Hour few of you have been getting in touch about the decision that you've made to retire even though it was a career that you loved Fran on WhatsApp has said I retired from my job as a practice nurse at the age of 54. My husband had retired a year earlier at the age of 56 and after running his own business for many years, never regretted it and have loved the freedom it gave us. There's someone else has come in to say that she also gave up her career like Serena at the age of 40. The reason to adopt social services wouldn't consider us for adoption unless one of us gave up our career.

Both my husband and I worked in finance with very busy working lives, long hours and lots of travelling. Women always have to make hard choices. Do continue to get in touch with us. You can WhatsApp us now. We're on email as well via our website and also on text and on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Now, the armed forces are not reaching their targets in terms of recruiting women. The MOD is hoping to increase the proportion of women in the armed forces by 30 percent, to 30 percent by 2030. But they've not yet met the target set for 2020, which is 15%. One of the

barriers to change is thought to be visibility. New research by the Angola Ruskin University has found the UK public knows little or nothing about female veterans. Lauren Goodyear-McBard led the research and Ria Jackson is an RAF veteran and founder of the blog The V Word, which discusses life as a female veteran. Good morning to you both. Lauren, I'll start with you because you carried out the research, which included a poll of more than 2,000 people aged 16 and over across the UK. Just tell us what you found. Yeah, sure. So what we found was actually really interesting. So the majority of respondents, around 70%, actually supported

women's participation in combat roles, which, of course, they've only been able to take up since 2018. However, this dropped down to about 56% when they were asked if they would actually support a female friend or relative in those types of roles, so someone close to them. Now, when we looked at perceptions of women after service, this was generally quite positive with sort of 70-80% of respondents reporting positive perceptions such as that they admired women veterans, viewed them as heroes. However, the big one for us that you've already alluded to is that 82% of respondents actually reported knowing very little to nothing about female veterans and actually knowing very little or nothing about female veterans appeared to be related to having

more of those negative perceptions of how women fare after service and attitudes towards them and actually being more likely to oppose women's participation in the military. So these results suggest a lack of visibility of women who've served in general, but also that potentially increasing this visibility and public knowledge and understanding might actually impact positively on perceptions and attitudes towards women's military participation. Okay, so how do you feel like the two link together then? How does this lack of public awareness impact the possible recruitment failings? So we can only speculate about this at this point based on the data that we have. But one of the things that our surveys also found is that those in the kind of lower age ranges, so sort of 16 to 34, which is the cohort that would traditionally be recruited from by the military,

are more likely to actually hold some of these negative perceptions of women who served in the military. So, for example, they're more likely to believe that women who've served have poorer mental and physical health, for example, and more likely to believe that they've lost out more than they've benefited from an armed forces career. This age group are also more likely to get their information about female veterans than women who've served from social media. So they may be more susceptible to those kind of more extreme depictions of military service or women's experiences that are propagated by social media. And these kind of perceptions may impact on their willingness to consider an armed forces career. So we can't say for certain, but it's likely that prevailing public perceptions

of suitability and impact of a military career for women will have an impact on recruitment. Okay, so public awareness is one aspect of this, but there have been quite a few reports in recent years around the culture within the armed forces of sexism, of bullying. What impact might those stories have as well? picked those more extreme cases of things like sexual harassment and sexual violence, then your perception of what a military career is going to be for women is going to be potentially quite negative. And that's not to say that those experiences don't happen and that the military don't have a responsibility to address them. They absolutely do. And making the military environment safe and inclusive for women is likely to impact on retention and recruitment of women as well. But I think there's a part to play here by both the military itself, but also media presentation and representation of women being quite negative, whereas actually what we find in research is that women are,

you know, very proud of their service and actually very keen to have that kind of representation of positive experiences as well, which are, you know, very common as well. Yeah, Ria, let's bring you in here because you spent 12 years in the RAF. What was your experience? I loved being in the RAF. I look back at it with very fondly. I had really positive experiences. I got to travel the world, made some beautiful friends, got a lot of skills. They educated me. Things that maybe I wouldn't have necessarily had the opportunity to have without it. And how would you describe the culture within the armed forces or the RAF specifically as you were a part of that? I think as with any organisation, there are room for improvement.

It doesn't matter what organisation or industry you go to. There's always some level of improvement that's required for equality, inclusivity and diversity. And I think the military have got some work to do without a shadow of a doubt. But I do know that they have been making positive strides quite a lot of late to address those. What do you feel they have to improve on? What was your experience? So it's a very male orientated environment and you tend to conform to that male-orientated environment, so that makes you quite androgynous, which sometimes, particularly when you're coming to leave as a veteran, that can be hard to integrate back into civilian life because you are quite an androgynous character,

so you do come quite male in how you communicate, how you work and how you address things. So I think some of the culture needs to in the military for me and it is heard in that way needs to realize yes we are in what was once a male-orientated environment however we are still women I mean I know that they've recently brought out uniform that's more fitting for um military women and I know that they now issue sports bras but at the time when I was serving um that wasn't the case which meant we often had ill-fitting uniform and I personally didn't have a problem with this but I had

colleagues that were having to strap themselves down in order to fit the body armor on and things like which is very uncomfortable particularly in in hot countries um but these are things that we adapted to because one of the things that they teach us is to adapt and overcome. However, they're now addressing this. Now, although I think it's been a slow process, but there are positive strides being made. Yeah. You also have this blog, The V Word, which I've been reading and I found it. Yeah, I found it very interesting. And one of in one of the blog posts, you say we learn very quickly to suppress our emotions in a bid to avoid being branded tits and tears. God forbid, as women, we get emotional.

Our femininity is quashed from the moment we arrive at basic training, immediately stripped of any feminine styling, such as makeup, nail varnish, jewelry. Even our body shape is cloaked by the ill-fitting uniforms made for men. That sounds like a tough thing to deal with. It is. At the end of the day, when you join the military, you know at the moment that it's a male-orientated environment. You know that. So I expected some of that.

But I think as I've grown older and a bit wiser and also become a mum to a little girl, I've come to realise what an impact that has on you as an individual I mean you need to conform in the military because it's very much a team environment and it's a team ethos and that's what you need and to do that you do have to strip away some of your your individuality in order to meet the team requirements however as a female that is completely stripped when you get there now I know they are making changes with that but that is quite an impact on you

because your hair is scraped back into a bun you can't have any piercings there's there's no I know they're making improvements because girls are now able to wear plaits and ponytails which they weren't ever before but that wasn't whilst I served. Now, you have alluded to the fact, Ria, that they are making changes and we did contact the Ministry of Defence to tell them about this discussion and a spokesperson has given us a statement. They say that women make an essential contribution to the success of our armed forces and we are taking bold steps to ensure full, thriving and varied career routes all the way to the highest ranks.

This includes opening all roles to women, cracking down on inappropriate behaviour and rolling out wraparound childcare. We are seeing a long term trend of more female recruits and our target of 30% of entrants being women by 2030 will drive change forward, building on the great strides already taken to attract, retain and develop the best talent. Now, Ria, I know that, you know, one of the reasons you left was because you wanted to start a family. Tell us about that experience, but also the fact that the MOD have recently announced that there will be new wraparound care for parents. So my reason, one of the reasons why there was a number of reasons why I chose to leave it was the right time for me at that time I do think about wanting a family but I experienced quite a few miscarriages prior to successfully birthing my daughter and I think that changes your mindset as well

and I didn't want to go away for six months at a time and leave my child at home. By the same token, I think in any organisation, whether it's the military or in civilian street, they expect you to work like you haven't got children, but mother like you haven't got a job. And I didn't want to have to make that hard choice. I also didn't want my child to be travelling all over, which is my personal choice to do,

because I know that there's a lot of children out there that are military children and they're highly successful. But I didn't want that for my child moving forward. And what more do you feel the military could do in terms of raising awareness of people like yourself, women that have done their best within the armed forces, have transitioned to civilian life and perhaps feel a bit forgotten about? I think the public profile needs to be risen,

which is one of the reasons why I did the V word, because I'm not the only female veteran that's left. When somebody thinks of a female veteran, sorry, thinks of a veteran, they don't necessarily think of 39-year-old Ria from Barnsley. They think of Sir Tom, who, you know, did a fantastic job and was an inspiration during COVID. Why is that? That is the depiction.

I just think that's public perception. I think that's what's been out there. Someone mentioned to me yesterday, actually someone from Women's Hour, actually, who I was speaking to, is that there's more visibility for military spouses than there actually is for female veterans because obviously military wives choir that's that's raised the profile really positively and i think we need some more positive um public knowledge put out there i think we need that profile needs to be raised number one so they can meet their recruitment needs and so other people can experience a lot of the positive things I experienced.

And number two, so that people like myself and lots of other women that I've been in touch with as a result of the V word don't necessarily feel left behind. I think in terms of like military transition as well. And for instance, if you do leave pregnant, you have the opportunity to make a choice to not go back. Now, I didn't do this personally, but I've met other female veterans who did do this and when you do that you lose your opportunity for military transition because you're already out by the same token and by the same token when we leave there isn't any female specific things to help us and there isn't much female specific things when you're in because I mentioned earlier I experienced quite a lot of miscarriages prior to leaving the military and I didn't actually get any support for that because there wasn't anything there for it now I know that I think changes need to be made there I mean we are highly skilled

strong resilient people we're not victims of society but we still need support we still need that support and we still need that and I also think a lot of the things that are put in place at the moment as well are very designed for males so a lot of the titles make us feel as women like we we don't relate to that so we don't necessarily access that help that's out there because there is a lot of help but it's just not designed for us yeah yeah um Ria thank you very much for coming on and sharing your experiences with us. Also, my thanks to Lauren. Thank you for coming on to the programme as well. Now, BBC Afghan have a new radio programme

called Women, which focuses on women and girls, especially those in rural areas in Afghanistan. It's presented by Shazia Hayya in Pashto and Aliet Fazan in Dari, who fled Afghanistan last August when the Taliban took control. It aims to inform, educate and empower its listeners. Vanarak Amidi is the presenter of The Fifth Floor.

She spoke to Shazia and Alia. Shazia first. The name of the programme in Pashto, it's Merman. It means miss or lady. It's a very formal word. So it's like miss lady. Yeah, miss lady. Okay, what about in Dari? In Dari, it's zan. Zan is not equal to lady, but zan is equal to women.

And Olya, the program goes out only on radio. Why is that? Because in this particular time, women do not have access to any other media. It's very difficult to watch TV because they don't have access to electricity. And also they don't have access to social media. That was why we choose the radio to kind of serve all women, especially in remote areas. Shazia, we all know how difficult it is even when you are in Afghanistan in the field

to get women to talk to you and give you their opinions how do you do it all the way from London? it must be really challenging yeah, it is, it's a tough job previously the fall of Kabul it was really easy women did talk to us

even in television and social social media, but now everything has changed in Afghanistan. And it's a tough job. But most of women now, they're really afraid of their safety. So we say, okay, I won't say your name, I won't say your location. And even though you're afraid that your own family would recognize your voice. Whatever you say, I will write word by word and then I will voice over your every word and then you would be fine. Apart from what Shazia mentioned, there are some other issues with our contributors in Afghanistan that they have fled Afghanistan. We cannot find them through their WhatsApp numbers or we cannot find them through their local numbers. We just ask their friends, their family. We search through social media that where's that lady? Where's this lady? It's kind of like detective work. Yeah, it's a tough work. But still, we never give up, right?

We don't. We don't. I know both of you. I know you won't give up. And what about the content? You know, how are you trying to make it a bit more different from what is being told in the news? Well, you know, there was a special program for women during our childhood. And when we came here, the management just decided, again, let's have a special program. So I emailed my editor and I just wrote, it would be really nice that we should have debits on taboo issues regarding women. And also health section is really important. And we should bring out a woman's voice. And at the end of the email, I just wrote, I would love to present this program. So please consider me as well.

Just sneak that in as well. And when you say taboo topics, can you give us some examples of those? You know, Franek, in Afghanistan still, there are some issues that's taboo for Afghan people. And there's a need that we should talk about those matters. Like, you know, about period. You know, in rural

areas, you can't talk in front of your family members about period. You can't ask, okay, my dear brother or my father, please, please bring me a pass because I can't go out. It's taboo. Yeah. Like even family planning.

In this program, I just talked with a female doctor. I asked her how family can consider family planning. You know, even that lady couldn't say condom. The word. Yeah, the word. Even taboo for doctors. Yeah, it is. I totally understand that.

And Olya, what about you? Because you were the women's affairs journalist in Kabul and we've worked a little with each other throughout the years as well. What kind of topics did you have in mind? I don't want to be this program like a news program. I just want to educate women through this program. I just want to inspire them through this program and want to entertain them through this program. I just want to inspire them through this program and want to entertain them through this program. I try to put a little bit music through the program because the music is banned in Afghanistan. And also to find inspiring women from Afghanistan and all over the world that can inspire them and motivate them and also educate them. This is the main point that women in Afghanistan, they don't know about their basic rights, that they have the right to study, the right to work,

the right to marry, the right to divorce. According to Sharia, Allah has given you the right. Well, what about under Taliban? Because Taliban is forbidding all of these right now. Yes, we don't want it to relate to Taliban, because in Afghanistan, there are a lot of other issues apart Taliban. They live in a kind of traditional society. It's about culture. It's about mentality. You can change the government, you can change the rules, but it's very difficult to change someone's mentality. And we are trying to do this through our discussions. We bring talented women in our discussions because

they listen to women. And also we try to bring scholars in the discussions, especially religious scholars. People really listen to them. They listen to religious scholars. They have authority. Yes, they have the authority and the influence. I think this works, but not now

it takes time i hope in one year i see the change so basically although the program is called zan woman and it targets mainly women you are also targeting men yeah yeah sure sure because in afghanistan men have control on everything They allow women to go out or not. They allow their daughters, sisters and their wives to study or to work or to access to their basic human rights. So that's why in general, this program is for families. It's for brothers. It's for sons. It's for husbands. It's for a society. Just keep listening to your daughters, to your wives, to your sisters, and just understand them. And that's why we try to bring male scholars and male psychiatrists, that our male audience will listen to them.

So you both are journalists and you had to flee Afghanistan last August. It's been almost a year now. And you're making these programs here in London and you're speaking to your listeners there. When you are making these programs about these issues, do you imagine a single person in your head? Do you think of a girl, of a woman you knew back home? Alia, you first.

I imagine my mother because she's in Afghanistan and she's in a city that she does not have access to the social media or television even, because they don't have enough electricity. I imagine my mother, I just tell her that this woman can inspire you. This woman can tell you that you need to be strong, even if you are far from your children. Because my mother, all of her children have gone from the country, and she's kind of alone there. What about you, Shazia?

Well, this program is really close to my heart. When I present this program, I talk to my female cousins, and especially to my mom. I'm the fourth child of the family, and my mom has five children. And whenever I got angry in home, I just yelled at my mom, which is not a good thing, that why you brought me to this world? Why you just don't got abortion? And my mom always told me that on that time, we didn't have family planning. And I did a debate about family planning and that program I just repeat

that family planning was something that reminded you of your mom yeah this program is a story of my mom it's a story of Alia's mom and it's a story of every Afghan mom and housewives

yeah well thank you both you're doing a great job it was a great conversation thank you and I got a little teary sorry sorry about that

thank you what an interesting discussion that was now that new radio program Women is available via FM and shortwave frequency

across Afghanistan now this spring more than 2 million people had registered to become potential blood stem cell donors in the UK. That's regarded as a milestone by DKMS, which is the biggest stem cell register in the country. And it gives one mother in Northern Ireland some much needed hope. Anne Greer's youngest son is in a critical condition in hospital. Daniel was a fit teenager, but in May he was diagnosed with leukaemia. The family want people around the world to donate blood

to see if their stem cells are a life-saving match for Daniel. Anne joins me now. Good morning, Anne. Welcome to the programme. Just start off by telling us how you knew something was wrong with Daniel. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Just mother's intuition, I would say really. He had complained of a couple of pains at the top of his neck and at his lower back, just very briefly, very short-lived, but just something told me that something wasn't right because it was constantly in the same, when he complained of it, it was always in the same place.

And at times I would see him getting in and out of my car and wincing with a little bit of pain, but he wouldn't have said anything. So after sort of two weeks of this ongoing and becoming more frequent, I decided to make an appointment to bring him to our GP. And what's his situation now, Anne? So he's been an inpatient in Belfast, in the Sick Children's Hospital in Belfast, since the 31st of May.

He has had two and a half, three days out of hospital in that entire time. So he's had two very intense courses of chemotherapy the first one lasted over 10 days and there were 25 doses of chemotherapy in that regime so obviously then that took several weeks to take effect and for his body to recover and then so that was basically he was an inpatient for 43 days at that stage and now he's just recovering from his second course of chemotherapy which again was over five days it was a much higher dose of medication it was 20 times the dose that he had the first time around and So again, he's really quite pearly at the moment. He's got an infection in his blood and he's on antibiotics.

Yeah, so that's where we are, where he's waiting in Belfast. We're hoping to go to Bristol to have a bone marrow transplant at the end of the month. But as yet, I have no definite word from Bristol that there is a definite donor lined up and ready to go. So that's why you've now put out this kind of worldwide call to try and get a stem cell match. How optimistic are you about that? To be honest, I think we're in a fortunate position and I do think that we will find a donor. Daniel is of white European heritage which unfortunately for us but unfortunately for others of other ethnic

minorities there are more matches available potentially for Daniel on the worldwide register. So we are hopeful, but obviously the more people that we can get signed up to the stem cell registry, the better for everybody. Everybody, you know, up 40% of people do not find their match. So that's four in every 10 people who are in the same position as we are in now, unfortunately, will not find their potential match.

And that can be due to many things. It can be due to specific and difficult to match tissue types. It also can be due to ethnicity so what we are trying to do is one obviously the main thing I want to do is find a match for my son but we're this sort of a family that we always like to give back and in our journey along this we've we've had our eyes opened we didn't expect cancer to come to our door nobody ever does so as we're going along and a couple of my very close friends have start had started was actually our oldest son started the campaign online and then it took off and some of our family friends are running the site for us now but the more people that we can get signed up to stem cell registers the more people

throughout the world that will be helped yeah we've seen recently in the news haven't we the case of Archie Battisby and these high profile cases of course very rare but we've seen his mother desperately trying to do everything she possibly can to fight to save her son when you see stories like that how does it make make you feel do you do you feel as in you're in a very similar situation I'm obviously fighting for to give my son the best chance at life um I can't really comment specifically obviously it's very I I wasn't, due to lack of internet, wasn't able to follow that case as close as I normally would. I think every mother around the world knows what it's like

and what they would do for their child. I believe Archie's case is very, very difficult, different from the position we find ourselves in but I think as as women around the world anybody who has a child and obviously of course daddies too it's not solely for women but there's your raw gut instinct is to protect your child and to help them and to do to fight their corner to to do whatever you can to obviously alleviate their pain or suffering, to make life easier for them. And in our case now with Daniel, you know, to try to save him. We're aware that his particular form of acute myeloid leukemia,

it is what's called high risk leukemia. So therefore, he needs a bone marrow transplant. This is his only chance of cure. And that's very hard to say. That's very hard to say. So I think every mother across the globe would be doing exactly what I'm doing if you find yourself in this situation as well. But hopefully from this, some good will come that other people will get onto the stem cell registry. I mean, looking at some of the facts and figures, in the world, every 27 seconds,

somebody is diagnosed with a form of blood cancer. But yet, of those people that need bone marrow transplants, 40% of them will not be able to find their match. Signing up to the register is so easy. It is simply online. There are obviously the two main charities in the UK, DKMS and Anthony Nolan, but there are worldwide charities. And for a simple cheek swab, anybody could save a life. You know, obviously there are age restrictions because of suitability and it's felt that the younger donors being a successful match for the patient that needs it. But specifically, Anthony Nolan at this moment in time are asking for more young males in particular to come forward. I know this is women's hour, but so for all of us that are females at home,

get our young men on board as well. Get them to do the swab. Yeah, yeah. Anne, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and coming on. Wishing you all the very best. Thank you very much.

Now, tomorrow, after leading England women to Euros victory, the captain of the Lionesses, yes, Leah Williamson, will be the captain of Woman's Hour. She'll be joining me for an exclusive chat. What will we talk about? Well, the issues close to her heart, including some that might even surprise you. And also, if you have a question for Leah

from perhaps a future Lioness in your family, let us know. We're on WhatsApp now, as I mentioned, so you can send us a voice note. The number is 03700 100 444. That's 03700 100 444. Remember that data charges may apply. And a reminder also that it's Listener's Week. That's coming up on the 22nd of August. There's still time for you to send us stories and questions. WhatsApp us, text us, 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, on the programme, we talk about girls quite a lot. Their safety, their mental and physical health, but we don't often talk to them. For an occasional series called Girls World, Enna Miller went to talk to a group of girls at their school in their friendship groups, not necessarily about the big issues, but what makes them laugh, who they laugh with and what they care about. Today, India and Alice are both aged 13 and they live in Strood.

Enna Miller talked to them at their school. Me and Alice have been friends for quite a long time now We've kind of clicked ever since we first met each other in year 7 How old were you then? We were 11 and we've had some ups and downs Yeah, definitely had some, it's bound to happen at the end of the day Friendships are going to come and go and in the end obviously we're still together and we're still the best of friends Yeah, and I think it's only kind of strengthened our friendship,

to be honest, because I'd say we're a lot closer now than we used to be. I can talk to you about anything. Yeah, 100%. I can literally tell you anything and I know you're not going to judge me no matter what. Alice, describe India. I think that she's a very kind and caring person as well. I think that she can be, like, blunt, but I think that she only has her best interests at heart.

India, describe Alice. You're probably, like, the kindest person I know. Like, I know even if I'm in the wrong in a situation, she's always there not to back me up and to make me feel like I haven't done anything wrong. She's always there to kind of show me that there's always a positive side to something and she really makes me see that you're always going to have people who really care about you. Oh my goodness, Alice, you're about to cry.

I know, I know, I was making you really emotional, bless. Oh, I love that. That's really sweet of you. I do feel like I can tell you anything and you're always going to stick by me, no matter what. No, honestly, the exact same for me. What makes you laugh? Each other. Yeah, I think, and sometimes it's not even anything funny. Literally, we just look at each other and just burst out laughing.

Yeah. We don't even need to be doing anything specific, we just need to be around each other. I think that will make us happy and make us smile. We can just sit around in a park for hours and do nothing and still have the best time. If we're meeting up, the typical thing we'll do is go into town and maybe go to a couple of shops, try on some clothes,

end up not buying anything. Yeah, exactly. We both love trying on clothes and end up not buying them, but it's just fun to take pictures in stuff like that. And then we'll normally like get some food go sit somewhere and just talk and that's normally how it goes. So not very much different from what I used to do I used to go into town at the time I used to go bowling. We used to love bowling yeah we've done that a couple of times. Yeah, it's really, really fun. We're competitive. I think we're both very, very competitive against each other. What are the things then that you like to do in your own quiet time?

With social media, is there such a thing as quiet time? It is very invasive. Like, I'll find myself saying, right, I'm going to sit down, I'm going to read a book, and then I'll get a notification. I'll be like, I'll check it, and then I'll go off, and then something else distracts me, and then I'm then I'm on like TikTok and it's been three hours. Time flies when you're like on social media texting your friends and I know it's bad but I don't do anything about it. So you're both admitting maybe then you don't really have very much quiet time. The other day I

came back from school and I did actually I just put my phone down I showered and I kind of got into nice clean clothes and I just sat there and I think I just listened to music for a while and that kind of that helped that really calmed me down. Would you say music is a big thing in your life? It's a massive part of my life like especially because I go on the bus to school I listen to it every single day without fail I listen to when I get home when I'm getting dressed when I'm brushing my teeth everything I listen to music it's a like a lovely thing to have in the background but also I feel like sometimes you do just need some silence and I feel like that's a way of distracting yourself from other things that's happening is just having some music there because

you feel less alone in that situation do you have time to feel alone I think the only times I really will feel alone is at night, like when I'm just in bed. I don't have my phone near me, it's all downstairs. I've got no way of obviously talking to anyone. Everyone's gone to sleep and I kind of just have time to myself and sometimes that is just really something I need and then sometimes it really does just make...

Like, I know I'm alone, but that doesn't always mean I'm lonely, but sometimes I do feel lonely. In this day and age, you feel like you're not meant to be alone, you're not meant to feel by yourself because you do have your friends on Snapchat or Instagram or TikTok. At a drop of a hat, you can call someone and they'll be there. But I feel like it's really lovely to have some alone time and just to think about what's happened and just reflect. What a lovely conversation that was

India and Alice from Stroud talking to Enna Miller. Now for something completely different in the next few weeks we're going to be looking at women and muscles we'll be talking about everything from the aesthetics of a muscly body and how it challenges gender norms to how women struggle to maintain muscle mass as they age. How do you actually build muscle through diet and nutrition? How are steroids used by some to bulk up and what effect does this have on the female body? Today we're going to be talking about women in the world of elite bodybuilding, where in the UK alone there will be more than 200 female bodybuilding shows this year. I'm joined by Kate Bishop, who's co-creator of the book Core, which includes a collection of photos of muscly women doing what the book describes as subverting the archetype of

femininity. And one of the bodybuilders in the book, Louise Plum, is also with us. A big welcome to you both. Kate, how did you first become interested in photographing muscly women? So for my dissertation, actually, I started looking into sport as a performance art, which I think for me was a way to relate to sport I have like zero skills in sport um but I found it really interesting like the visual elements of it and then that started to go into looking at academic discussions of gender and youth identity and girl studies as well um and it basically ended up looking at certain sports that I perceive to cross I guess gender stereotypes and then thinking about how we can promote the discussion more of finding this and being proactive about finding a place for intersex people non-binary trans men and women the whole

gender spectrum actually now finding a place for them in sport because honestly it feels like you know that's something that should have already happened and then in terms of like as a visual art I then started to look at a series of other sports that I felt like had those gender bending or gender stereotype bending qualities and that's how I came to bodybuilding. And how did you go about photographing them because if they're you know not necessarily seen as something that's celebrated in the mainstream how did you make sure you were doing it in a positive way and perhaps not from the male gaze? Yeah so I mean I was the art director and stylist for this and my colleague Celia Croft was the photographer but

we worked together and I think we left a lot of kind of freedom for our subjects in terms of how they wanted to be represented and expressed I mean like Louise will tell you that something that they're literally trained in is posing so in terms of that we were just kind of like made it very clear to them like this is something to provide you with a platform to celebrate what you're doing um and we would kind of set up like the location but very much leave it up to them for how they you know wanted to pose and express themselves um and we just wouldn't publish anything that they didn't feel comfortable with. We had hair and makeup, but yeah,

I think really, I guess, different to like a standard editorial, we left a lot of freedom for them to make sure that they were comfortable and felt good. That was the main thing for us. We wanted to create images that they felt proud to be a part of.

So, yeah. Yeah. Louise, you were part of this photo shoot. You're in the book and your muscles are absolutely extraordinary. You have so many muscles and they're so defined. It's like looking at a diagram that you get in a textbook where you can see all the muscles of the body clearly outlined on the page. You don't see this in everyday life.

How did you go about developing such an incredibly high amount of muscle well first of all thank you very much that's a huge compliment um yeah basically i've been training and into bodybuilding for about 12 years now so it's not something that's happened overnight you know you don't go into a gym and pick up a weight and then turn into a bodybuilder that's part of the misconception isn't it for women i think oh 100 yeah i think a lot of girls are scared to go into the weight section because they assume they're gonna bulk up and look quite manly if they start lifting weights and i tell everybody you know nothing is further from the truth you have to work very very very hard to look like this it has to be something by design it's not

something by accident how hard is it well i mean it is hard because you know you have to train x amount of hours per day x amount of days per week but you know the training part the gym aspect of it is actually the fun bit the bit that's difficult is the food you know because you're either force feeding yourself tons and tons of food to try and grow the muscle or you're restricting your calories and your diet to the nth degree to try to diet down to the pictures you can see when you're on stage. You know, that kind of vacuum packed anatomy diagram look is difficult. The diet is the hard end of it. Yeah, you calculate your macros, don't you? The amount of proteins, carbohydrates and fats, also the calories as well.

How does it make you feel, Louise, when you look in the mirror? Are you happy with what you see? Oh, incredibly. Yeah, really proud. You know, like I say, this is something that's been been tweaked and sculpted over a number of years. So to see the progression year on year, I feel incredibly proud, actually. It's something that I've done for myself, by myself. I myself I mean obviously I have a team of people around me that help I have a wonderful coach that that helps me with my food and my training but essentially bodybuilding is quite a solitary sport you know you're in the gym you're doing it for yourself by yourself so yeah I feel

a lot of a lot of pride and a lot of um I feel very comfortable in my own skin now something which i didn't feel before before i was a bodybuilder and you can see a picture of louise uh with all her muscles uh i think this must be your stage look because you're looking very ripped very defined uh with a tan and lots of oil as well you can see that picture on the bbc women's hour twitter feed now people might look at that image there louise and think that doesn't seem natural. Is that possible to do without the use of performance enhancing drugs? Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, it goes back to consistency, time, diet. You know, I haven't been doing this for a couple of years. I've been doing this for 12 years, very, very consistently.

And like I say, I have a coach that's guided me through my off-season and my on-season. So when I bulk, I put on 20 kilos worth of… 20 kilograms. 20 kilos. I'm 20 kilos different from my stage look to the peak of my off-season look. It's highly uncomfortable. It's not a pleasant

process to go through but you do it because you're pushing your body you need the extra calories to to give you the energy and to be able to push the harder weights the higher the higher weights to grow the muscle and then you take about four months or five months to to diet down back to stage lean the pictures you'll see on Twitter are a very extreme look. You know, it's not something that I will walk around day to day looking like. That's time to perfection. So I look like that for that day, for that competition.

Then the tan and the oil, of course, kind of highlights. And of course, as Kate so rightly said, it's how you pose. You're very trained on how to pose specifically to make these muscles pop. You don't walk around looking like that at all. It's something that takes a lot of practice. It's very difficult to do as well. I bet it is.

And this is something we're going to continue to discuss here on Woman's Hour because we don't talk about it often. And as we say, there are certain stereotypes around femininity, which female bodybuilding just goes against completely. Louise, thank you so much for your time. Kate as well. That's all we've got time for on Woman's Hour this morning. We'll be back with the captain of England Women, Leah Williamson, tomorrow. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Andy Oliver, and I'd like to tell you all about my Radio 4 series, One Dish. It's all about why you love that one dish, the one that you could eat over and over again

without ever getting tired of it. Each week, a very special guest will bring their favourite food to my table and will be unpacking the history of it. And food psychologist, Kimberley Wilson, is on hand to talk us through the science bit. What food reminds you of your child? What's your favourite place to go for dinner?

What do you have for Sunday lunch? What's your favourite dessert? Do you say plantain or plantain? What food would you take with you to a desert island? What's your favourite type of chilli oil? What do you have for breakfast? What's the best pasta? What's the one thing you love?

So if you're the sort of person who's already planning what you're having for lunch while you're eating breakfast, then this podcast is going to be right up your street. That's One Dish with me, Andy Oliver. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.