Woman's Hour - The Big Swing’s Georgina Jackson and Emma Smith. Bronwyn Curtis, Vicky Pryce, Dr Kaitlyn Regehr and Ben Zand

Episode Date: November 17, 2022

The Big Swing is the world’s first double female-fronted big band. It is led by jazz musicians Georgina Jackson and Emma Smith. On Friday 18th November they will be performing at EFG London Jazz Festival and Cadogan Hall, where they will present their own unique interpretations of the old-school big band jazz tradition, adding their own brand of style and charisma. They join Emma to discuss why they felt the need to elevate female visibility in the big band world and to perform live.Of an estimated 18,000 incels, or involuntary celibates, globally, 2500 of them are based in the UK. ‘The Secret World of Incels’ is a Channel 4 documentary that gives a window into their lives and explores what makes them engage with these misogynist online forums that have led to some horrific acts of violence. Presenter, Ben Zand tells us about his experience of entering what he describes as a world full of men ‘addicted to hopelessness’. And Dr Kaitlyn Regehr, an Associate Professor in Digital Humanities discusses her concerns over the normalising of incels into our culture and the growing impact on boys and young men.Are you struggling to make ends meet with inflation at upwards of 11% with rising energy and food prices eating into your budget? Later today the Chancellor of the Exchequer Jeremy Hunt will announce the government’s plans for the economy. What will it means for you and for women in all sectors of the economy, whether you’re in work, on benefits or on a pension? We talk to Bronwyn Curtis is an expert in finance and commodities and Vicky Pryce is chief economic adviser at the Centre for Economics and Business Research.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Managers: Andrew Garratt and Steve Greenwood.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Due to rights reasons, we've had to remove the performance from this podcast. For some of us dealing with torrential rain, you could say it's perfect weather for it. The Chancellor, Jeremy Hunt, has told the country to brace for an economic storm as he prepares to unveil the autumn budget shortly. £30 billion worth of spending cuts and £24 billion in tax rises. That's meant to be happening at around 11.30 this morning.

Some other numbers for you. Mr Hunt is the fourth Chancellor in nearly as many months. And we've had three Prime Ministers in the same number of months. Today we'll interrogate what we know of this autumn statement, which you may feel is quite a lot, and it's deliberately so, in advance of the official announcement, so the markets are not spooked in the same way as they were after the former prime minister Liz Truss's mini-budget. And we're going to look at how women could be specifically affected,

with women more likely to be in low-paid jobs across the UK. We'll also be looking at the impact of what researchers have called sheflation, the ideas of spikes in inflation hitting women the hardest. And I also wanted to hear from you today. Some of you were already in touch with us yesterday on social media, but please continue to do so, to be so. What are you listening out for today? What are you most concerned by? And perhaps as you'll hear from the very first voice on today's programme, what is it that you have had to say no to? What are perhaps the items or the activities or something else in your life that just has started to change either through choice or no choice because of the economic times we find ourselves in? Perhaps you've even been in this position before,

thinking about how to make things a little bit easier if you can for yourself and for those around you with the rising costs of everything else. Text me here on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can send me an email through the website, the Women's Hour website that is, or a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges could apply. So do check out if you can use Wi-Fi as an option wherever you are today.

I also wanted to ask you on the same subject, a slightly different question. So do feel free to get in touch on this if you feel you can, if you feel moved to, which is what do you put this economic situation down to? The government has claimed Russia's invasion of Ukraine has been the principal cause of shocks to the economy and also the aftershocks of the pandemic and measures that had to be taken there. And yet there's this new polling out for the Times newspaper today, which shows only 8% of the public agree with that. The YouGov survey shows voters still largely hold the government responsible for the economic situation, 45% blaming the Conservatives' management of the economy for increases in the cost of borrowing, while 23% blame a global economic slump. is it for you what are the reasons we are here where do

you lay the blame i think it's an important question in the midst of what we are being told is the plan and and also when you're thinking about how the plan affects you and thinking a little bit further ahead we never know quite how far uh when another election swings around of course as well. So do get in touch on that. 84844. Very intrigued to hear your take on that. Also on today's programme, I can promise to take you far away from all of this, far out of this world or certainly off this planet with the woman who's in charge of space exploration at the UK Space Agency after NASA's Artemis lifted off yesterday, finally, for those

who enjoyed watching that and following the progress. And I can also deliver some music to your ears. Not me, I'm sure you have that, but the leaders of the Big Swing, the world's first double-fronted female-led big band. That is all to come, so don't go anywhere. But in just over an hour and a half, we will hear the detail of the government's latest plans for the economy. There are some things we do already know, many things, but just to go for the bigger picture, for starters, inflation is currently over 11%. The Bank of England says the UK is facing its longest recession

since records began. Some commentators say the key job for the Chancellor, Jeremy Hunt, is to undo the harm by his predecessor's mini-budget, which led to the pound dropping against the dollar and an emergency intervention by the Bank of England. He says, the Chancellor that is, that he's facing horrible decisions. Many people are waiting to hear what he has decided. Kim is one of them. I spoke to her just before coming on air. She's married with four children, is disabled and lives in Wales with her husband.

He lost his job during COVID and is now her full-time carer while he looks for work. I'm worried, really, really worried. Nothing ever seems to go right for people at the lower end of the scale. What particularly are you listening out for? I'm really, really hoping that there's going to be a hand to help us. It can't carry on like this.

I've got four children that are on a daily basis hungry because I can't afford enough food to keep them fed. I can't have the heating on to keep them warm. How has that changed and over what period? The heating I've not really used for a while because it's always been tight. But food wise, it's becoming ridiculous. My son's birthday last week, towards the time that I was buying the groceries, he asked for something simple.

He wanted a garlic baguette. That was it to go with his dinner. And they've gone up from 32 pence to 59 pence and I didn't have the budget to get it for him I couldn't get him a garlic to get to go with his tea because it's not in the budget I didn't have the extra pennies and that's a change in in very recent weeks you would say that's yeah that's a matter of a few weeks. And that's how tight, I mean, that gives a very, very clear window in how tight you are budgeting with what you've got. I've got no choice but to.

It's become a point now where fruit and vegetables are a luxury. There's also been reports about people skipping meals, and especially parents. Have you had yourself, have you found yourself in that situation myself and my husband pretty much live on toast because it's the cheapest thing that we can eat we do that to make sure that the kids are as full as possible we can't have it where we all eat and are able to keep the lights on. It's just not possible. When you are in a position like you were in the other day,

talking to your son about the garlic baguette to go with dinner, what do you say to him and how is he responding? He understands to a degree. He shouldn't have to understand to any sort of degree. It is what it is. One of the elements of today's announcement will be and could be about benefits rising in line with inflation that's a it's a big focus it's a big part of this i mean that would be the hope and that's what's expected to be announced but that would be incredibly important i imagine to you and your family

if they do rise with inflation it would give us some hope to be able to get through winter and keep the children fed. I really don't see how we're going to make it through winter if that isn't announced today. How are you doing with all of this? I worry from the second I open my eyes until we finally give up at night time. It's a lot. I think I'm suffering mentally and physically from it. It's just a lot all the time. Is your husband, do you think, able to...

How has it been for him trying to look for work after he lost his job? I'm not sure what he was doing, but during the pandemic? It's been horrific. We're very rural and there's just nothing there's nothing around at the moment what was he doing before he was in construction right and there just hasn't been another opportunity no a lot of the businesses are small businesses and a lot of them went under with COVID. They just couldn't survive. And how's that affecting him having that change of role and for the time being, being your carer? Because I presume it's a big impact on him, not just financially, but psychologically not having his job. It's been a lot for him. He was used to getting up and providing and making sure we were never well off.

But we were able to manage. And now we're not even close to managing. To be honest, even if he had the job that he was in, with the rise of inflation, there's nowhere we'd be managing. Really? So with what he was bringing in when he was working? He was working minimum wage. There's no way of surviving even now.

And, I mean, your situation with how you get about, I'm not sure the extent of your condition and how it's been impacted, but are you able to be driven? Do you have a car? How does that work? I have a motability car, but it's used primarily to get the children to and from school i can't afford there's been a few appointments i've meant to have gone to recently i just can't afford to get to them because of the cost of fuel it's yeah it's just too much well

we will hear what the actual details are a little bit later this morning is there anything else you wanted to add i just really hope that common sense shines through today and that there is help for people that are genuinely really struggling. It's gone past the point of choosing between heating and eating now. People can't afford to do either. That was Kim. She's a participant in something called Changing Reality. It's a project funded by the Financial Fairness Trust,

documenting the realities of life on a low income. Thank you to her. I'm joined now on the line by two leading economists to talk through the likely measures and how they may particularly affect women. Bronwyn Curtis has had 30 years experience of leadership in finance and commodities, and she's a non-executive member of the Oversight Board at the all-important UK Office of Budget Responsibility. You may hear it referred to as the OBR. Vicky Price is the Chief Economic Advisor at the Centre for Economics and Business Research and a former Joint Head of the Government Economic Service. Let me talk to you first, Vicky. You're just hearing the words of Kim and what she's listening out for today. And

I wonder how that chimes with you and also with what you know about women's finances in the country. Well, indeed, I think there have been quite a lot of leaks already about what's going to be in the autumn statement. And I think everyone has been reassured, and surely the person you're just talking to should be reassured that the Chancellor is going to announce that benefits will be going up in line with inflation next financial year, which starts in April. Of course, you have to wait for that.

And of course, those price increases are biting already. There's no doubt about that. And we do know that women, of course, who find themselves mostly in quite low pay occupations are also the ones that have been bearing the brunt of the price increases. I mean, we've been looking at food prices, for example. Yes, inflation, as you mentioned, is over 11%, but food price inflation is about 16% more than that, slightly above that. And that has affected all sorts of, you know, basic food that people rely on. And we've been hearing the problems that the lady you were talking to is having about feeding her children. So that's going to be with us for some time with inflation not likely to start sort of falling for a good few months to come. And Bronwyn, to bring you into this, good morning. Does the idea of when we talk about this idea of sheflation, it's about the responsibilities that often women find themselves with and what they've got to spend money on, isn't it?

Well, yes, of course, things like we say there are jobs out there because we've got very high employment at the moment. But, of course, if you're going to do a job, you need childcare. So, you know, that's not easily available and it's got more and more expensive going up with inflation too. And, of course, women, you know, pensions, you know, a lot of women haven't paid what they call the full stamp or whatever it is.

So, you know, they get hit all along the way. So I think it's a really, really difficult time. And, of course, people haven't been used to high inflation. And so, of course, they're not budgeting for, you budgeting for these sorts of numbers. You have a decade or more, longer, of low inflation and of course now that adjustment is just really difficult. And on the pension point, Vicky, to come back to you, there's concern about women not having built up some of the same contributions because of time out of the workforce.

Do we expect any of that to be addressed today or how will that be impacted by what could be announced today? Well, the first thing is that the triple lock will apply this time again. So pensions will at least get 10 percent increase, which is something. But it's absolutely true that by the time women get to retirement age, they have only a fifth of the pension wealth that men have because they haven't been working full time. There have been some adjustments to this so that they can even when they take time off, you can account for that period. And therefore, your overall contributions are not that badly hit. So that's been a huge improvement. Nevertheless, what we know is that because women work to a very considerable extent part time, they tend to collect a lot less during their lifetime.

So average earnings are considerably lower inevitably. And if you also look at the gap that exists, if uh what the full-time wage is so you end up actually earning a lot less not only per hour but during your lifetime of course and that means that at the end of your of your career uh you're really badly hit and of course women have also had this increase in their pension age that they have to live with and we've been hearing so many cases of women who've stopped working you know there's been this huge withdrawal from the labour market that's been taking place recently and activity rates have gone up a lot of sickness been sickness periods for for people with long Covid and other issues and so quite a lot of women find themselves unable to work beyond the age of 60 and just relying basically on benefits

from the state so this is why it is so important to get a proper assessment of what the needs are for a very large part of the population that relies on this right now. And Vicky, just to stay with a theme or an element of this, talking about the lower paid jobs in society, we also know about the numbers of women in the public sector, disproportionately female, especially in the health service. And one of the other things that has been released in advance, so much of it has, I mean, there may still be things we we don't know um when jeremy hunt gets on his feet and you know just over an hour's time but uh what do we know about for instance we know nurses are going to go on strike for the first time we're expecting that but what do we

know about health because there have been some things that maybe that the health budget will be protected uh and how does that affect women in those public sector roles? Yes I think the two areas that will be protected we think is National Health Service but of course the question is where the money is going to go to directly. Social care of course needs a huge boost and there are now discussions that maybe councils are going to be allowed to increase their rates without needing to have a referendum so they may get more money out of the likes of us if you like to pay for social care because that is of course in serious problem right now so so there would be um in a consideration of of those departments that absolutely needed such as the national health service and also defense it means really that

quite a lot of other areas may not get as much. But the interesting thing is, what does it actually mean if you continue to give the money that is needed? As I said, the question is, where does it go? Does it go on higher wages? What we know is that the government is thinking of paying a little bit more than it has said originally, instead of 2 percent, possibly 5 percent. But a lot of whatever extra they offer may well be expected to come from government departments budgets. If that is the case, then they're going to cut in all sorts of areas. And you're quite right about women dominating, particularly the health sector. I think something like 88% of all nurses and health workers are women. And if you look at the care sector, I was suspecting there's a very similar percentage as well there.

Yes. And let's not forget, Jeremy Hunt was the health secretary. So it is an area that he does know a lot better than some of the others around him. Although again, there'll be different views of him and his tenure in that post and how money was spent at that time. Because that brings me to the question of Bronwyn, you know, with all your years of working in finance and looking across the economy, as you have in different roles, do you accept the government's defence of why we're in this situation? Because some of the voting public do not in the poll that I was sharing earlier from the Times newspaper. Actually, I'm with the most of the public, I have to say. We've had a long period of very, very low growth, more than a decade.

We've got a high tax burden already. We've had tight spending for a long time as well. So when, you know, Vicky's talking about, well, you know, perhaps they can take it out of some other budget, it's really difficult. There is no sort of extra there, any fat to actually take away from. I think one of the problems in the UK, and this is a slightly bigger picture thing, is they want European-style public spending, but US-style taxes, which are much lower. So the Europeans spend more on services like health and so on, but taxes are higher.

When you say those, sorry, do you mean the Conservatives or are you talking about voters? I'm talking about what the Conservatives want. If you look back at the electioneering, you'll see the main thrust of the electioneering was all about lower taxes. And, of course, that's been, they've had to rule that out now because, you know, we had the mini budget, it wasn't credible, and so they're having to be a lot tighter and more credible.

But I think we've got to be careful here that I think they're going to put up taxes that will be on the people that can most afford it. But will there be enough left over for the really important social care and health and also the people on the lowest incomes? I'm not sure it will be enough. Vicky, do you accept the government's positioning on this? Or do you think better governance would see us not in this position, facing down, as the new Chancellor said, an economic storm? Well, we have had the mini-budget and the problems that that caused, of course, we mustn't forget that.

But that is used as an excuse now to be much tougher than would otherwise have been the case, and maybe leave a little bit of room at the end uh just before an election to maybe give something back to the electorate uh that's a possibility so particularly because of all the the rumors that we now have about exactly when various public spending cuts are going to take place which are likely to be after uh the next election so the pain comes later. And of course, in terms of taxing people at the higher end of the pay scale, if you like, that brings in a little bit of extra money. But most of the money that they're going to be collecting will be in two

ways. First of all, corporation tax, assuming there are any profits that firms can make next year, given that we're expecting a recession. Corporation tax is going back up to 25% from next April, from 19%. And then of course, stealth taxes. So everything that they can collect by not raising the thresholds of income tax. And of course, that brings many more people, even those at the lower end of the pay scale that we've been talking about,

loads of women possibly into paying tax for the first time above the threshold that they're on already, because obviously there will be increases. There are increases taking place, even though they're below inflation. But this still could lead to a number of people being worse off because they suddenly have to pay tax. And many more people onto the higher tax brackets as well. Millions will start paying the 40 percent tax, which they wouldn't have had to have done otherwise. So the government will be getting a lot more.

Plus, if you're spending more, if you're spending, sorry, if you're spending anything, even if you reduce the amount you spend a little bit, and we've seen retail sales falling in the last month, where the data became available. VAT, if it stays at 20%, because prices are going up, is going to collect a lot more for the government as well. So there are revenue areas where, you know, they would be doing better. On the other hand, of course, they have extra costs too. So there are people who question, you know, how big is that gap that we've got? And are we really doing it just as a,

you know, in terms of smoke and mirrors and trying to convince the capital markets that we have a plan? Whereas, in fact, perhaps some of those and mirrors and trying to convince the capital markets that we have a plan. Whereas, in fact, perhaps some of those cuts for the future may not come. And some of those tax increases, if you like, may be changed later on. Indeed, Vicky Price, Bronwyn Curtis, thank you to both of you. On that point, a message here from Hannah, who says, I do believe that Covid and the war in Ukraine have had huge economic consequences, but I also strongly feel that the Conservatives' decade of austerity and cuts to public services has been pushing more people into poverty even before the recent global shocks. I would also like to see some pro-environmental measures in the autumn budget.

That to come in just over an hour. Hannah, thank you for that message. Catherine in West Yorkshire, good morning. Talking about the domestic finances on the home front for you. Our change in our personal budget since the financial crisis has been every summer. We've tended to book a holiday

or at least the flights for the following summer. And as of yet, we haven't done this. We're waiting to see what happens with bills before we decide whether we can't afford a holiday next summer or not. And another one with changes that you're making. I worked extra hours for the ambulance service to boost my income.

Because it involved travelling to the headquarters, I found myself unable to do it anymore as I couldn't afford petrol to guarantee I could make the journey. My monthly shopping, which I do online, has had to be cancelled because I'm now expecting my energy bill. That's been delayed and until I know what it is

and the weather's turned colder, I can't guarantee I have enough to cover both bills. No name on that message. You don't have to put your name, but it gives you an insight into some of the decisions and some of those things that people are weighing up at the moment. And thank you for sending that in. Keep them coming in. And the number that you need to do that is 84844. Now, I did promise you some music. So shall we have some? Perhaps something like this. I'm gonna live till I die. I'm gonna laugh instead of cry. I'm gonna take the town and turn it upside down. I'm gonna live, live, live till I die. They're gonna say, what a guy. I'm gonna take to the sky. Don't wanna miss a thing. I'm gonna have my fling. I'm gonna live, live, devil till I'm an angel, but until then, hallelujah, wanna dance, I'm gonna fly. I'll take my chance, riding high. Before my numbers up, I'm gonna fill my cup. I'm gonna live, live, live, live, live Till I die

Oh yeah, we'll just keep going with that, shall we? Let me introduce you to the leaders of The Big Swing, who we can thank for that glorious music, aka the world's first double female-fronted big band. Georgina Jackson and Emma Smith, good morning. Good morning. That's right. It's lovely to have you here.

And I believe you decided there was a need to elevate women and the visibility of women in the big band world. I know that tomorrow you're going to be performing at the EFG London Jazz Festival. We're going to be presenting your interpretations of the old school big band jazz tradition. But how did you get together and why did you decide to do this? We decided to do it because we're both absolutely nutty about big band music really and even though it's probably not the coolest thing to be nutty about we think it's incredibly cool and we've been playing this music for a very very long time now and there really isn't a lot of female representation. I've been

in big bands for a good couple of decades really and always been the only female or one or two females in there and there's been certainly no kind of big band leaders or female big band conductors and so we just want to inject a new energy and a new freshness into the into the big band world because it's such great music. The big swing Georgina and that's a really interesting thing to hear from your take emma how about you i actually decided to become a singer because of how little success my saxophonist mother had being a woman in the big band world my mum's name is simone and she used to take the e of her name when sending in audition tapes in the late 70s and early 80s she would instantly get the gig because she was is a phenomenal saxophonist

for this genre specifically. And then she'd turn up and be asked to either leave or put on a very sexy outfit. And I know that's happened to you as well, George. Yeah, definitely. People phoned up and said, would you mind wearing the skirt on this? Because there was no point in having girls in the band if they weren't overtly girls. One of these stories is from the 70s and your story is from probably the 90s right yeah absolutely and i'm just saying before um turning up uh playing trumpet which was an unusual thing to do and starting to play and having the band leader the conductor say to me would you mind opening your legs to see where your male parts are hidden wow yes that's

what do you respond to that well I mean I just laughed along because I didn't really know what the alternative was because you have to keep working but it's changed now I mean things are a lot different now but that was kind of how it was and so we want to um we kind of want to claim the music for ourselves and have a different atmosphere. And our band's got a totally different atmosphere. Our band is so, exactly how our fantasy vision of a big band would look.

How is it different? Tell us a bit more about that. Well, there's a ton of really boisterous and energised women leading it. Who can wear what they want? We can all wear what we want. And the repertoire we've chosen is truly from our What Sparks Joy songbook.

So you've got a lot of bassy, some sort of Sinatra classics that have been redone for female voice keys. We're also featuring a couple of forced be reckoned with soloists such as Vula Malinga, one of my really good friends, who is a really famous singer here in the UK, actually in the world. And she's doing a totally fantastic reclamation of Natural Woman. The repertoire itself is just so fun and we think it's going to be really infectious for the audience. And that will sort of transcend the fact that we are putting a lot of women in our band there's also a lot of men there's people you've got both oh yeah yeah yeah we've just got

the best musicians and the best humans that we know to make a great concert hoping it's gonna be full of energy and like the music it's you know it's everything from kind of 70 years old to modern day but it's got one thing in common which it's got an incredible energy and until you've sat in a room and heard 16 people blow down instruments absolutely live and there and play with like the being you know like it matters with all the life then and it's it's quite something to hear I don't think you could probably do your job and start in a bad mood and never end in a good mood I mean maybe that's naive of me, but I'm just thinking, it's sort of a climate we're talking in today.

I think people needed to hear what you've got to say and you're going to do some live music for us very shortly. But is it something, Emma, that always leaves you in a better place when you've performed? The community that is kind of drawn through the people on that stage, it doesn't really matter where you start your day. And as it's a big band, similar to an orchestra, everyone's coming in from different stages in their life

and different situations, and so is the audience. And something that Georgina and I are really big on is the audience is a part of our band. Yeah, definitely. The energy that we get from them, that we then bring into the players, and then the players then give back to the audience, it's very exciting.

And we're really looking forward to meeting our Cadogan Hall audience tomorrow. So that's why you're doing it in London? Yeah, we are. It's a launch, actually. It is a launch. It's our first live gig. Obviously, we've done lots of live gigs in different settings, but tomorrow is our first launch with this.

With a big swing. Yeah, absolutely. And how many are there of you 16 people in the band and we've got three guest vocalists and uh you're absolutely right you might go on stage like complain about the public transport about parking whatever you know and you come off in a totally different mood because it just absolutely lifts your live music is special isn't it it is and there's a report out today we're listening to more music not necessarily live but more music than ever before just it's around us yeah it's such a

different way and perhaps people needing it it takes your mind somewhere else i think the the genre that we're presenting is so unique because it's jazz and it's swing and obviously it's very joy inducing but the improvisational nature of the music we're playing means that these people that we have brought together this band band we've curated, they all get to express their personalities. They all get to express their joy, their heartbreak, whatever they're going through, through those moments of soloistic expression. And even just being on stage around that, it's really, really powerful. We've chosen a whole band of improvisers as well as fantastic section players. So it's not just like an orchestra

where they're playing the notes. They're really bringing their soul. And it's different every time. I bet. Well, I just wanted to read you this. There's a lovely message from Sarah who's listening in Staffordshire. It says, I was told when I was younger

there was no point playing the saxophone as women were not allowed in big bands. This was in 1985. I did pursue it and I ended up playing in one finally on sax, but I was the only woman. Well done to these women for starting this big band. It's totally cool and she's very excited. I don't think I should get in the way of,

I know you're going to perform for us live in the studio. What are you going to play? We're going to do a medley, aren't we? We're just to show the different kind of aspects of what we do the different moods that you're going to expect tomorrow so we'll imagine i'll let you get to to where you're going to get into position and we'll imagine some more people around you but we're uh we're very happy to have both of you uh here doing this and that's of course emma smith and georgina jack. And they're being accompanied by a pianist, Ross Barron. Woo! Amazing.

Thank you so much there. Emma and Georgina, accompanied by the pianist, Rob Barron. It had to be you and Get Out of My Life. Absolutely wonderful. I think we could just keep that going until the full hour, to be honest, till 11. But I can't. We've got other people to talk to.

The Big Swing will be performing tomorrow night at the London Jazz Festival in London. All the best to you. And many messages coming in saying how much they're enjoying that. And also a message here, because I did introduce you

as the first double female fronted big band, which people are very excited about. Someone else doing a shout out for Ivy Benson, who conducted the BBC house band. So don't forget the past. It doesn't detract from the brilliant achievements now, says Hannah, who's sent a message in. So just do a shout out there as well. Thank you very much. Indeed. Lovely to have that music, especially this morning for us all. Now, to go to something else again I did promise we'll leave this world

or certainly this planet together for a moment and think about space because yesterday the American Space Agency NASA launched the most powerful rocket ever built on its debut flight to send an unmanned or unwomanned which we'll get to capsule to the moon. Artemis 1 is named after the Greek goddess of the moon and will be testing technologies to send astronauts back to the lunar surface later this decade after a gap of 50 years. Twelve men have landed on the moon so far, but no women. The next we'll see a woman step onto the surface, that's the aim, along with the first person of colour.

Libby Jackson is Head of Space Exploration at the UK Space Agency. I spoke to her earlier today and asked what it was like seeing the most powerful rocket ever built on its debut flight. It was quite a moment to see and bringing it home for me, the new chapter that this mission marks. I grew up being inspired by the stories of the Apollo missions. Now, I wasn't alive, but they were what, you know, captured my attention, brought me to the space sector, has led me to have a wonderful career in it. And we're about to go and do that again with Artemis.

And I say we this time, it's not just America, they're going with their international partners with the European Space Agency, the UK is a part of this program. And seeing this rocket start its journey, finally, after quite a little bit of waiting and three attempts, it brought it home, the science that we're going to discover, the technology that we are delivering and developing here in the UK, but the inspiration, the images, what it's going to mean for our young people and people around the world today to see that. And I hope be inspired to see how wonderful science and technology can be. You know, people might not know, but the idea of actually getting a woman on the moon, it hasn't happened yet. I think we've just got to state that. And how does that fit into this? So NASA had been very clear that Artemis will land the first woman on the moon,

we saw 12 people walk on the moon back in the 60s and 70s. And they were all white American men. Of the time, you know, women weren't able or weren't seen to have these senior roles. It wasn't the done thing. Times have changed. They're still changing. We've still got a lot more to do to help women feel welcome in the space sector, be equal in the space sector. But that role model, that visual of women on the moon, people on the moon, the first person of colour on the moon, reflecting the world that we all live in, will be an incredibly powerful image an important step and i hope captivate the next generation and to show young people whatever they look like that this is something they can be a part of when is it going to happen living uh the next mission artemis 2 will be in at least two years time that will be the first

mission with people on board and they will fly around the moon the landing is due to be Artemis 3 NASA are talking about 2025 so sometime in the second half of this decade we will see people walk on the moon again and any chance of it being a female British astronaut? Well, next week we are looking forward to the next set of European Space Agency astronauts. Now, the UK is a proud member of the European Space Agency, a founding member. We'll see who gets selected.

You don't know who's going to make it, but do you know if any British women are putting themselves forward or in training for it? Oh, we absolutely know that the UK had a very strong set of candidates to it with a really good representation from women in that. All eyes are on next week to see who gets unveiled. I think that's what we should be tuning into, perhaps, instead of, you know, I'm a celebrity, get me out of it. Figure out who's going to potentially represent, who hasn't represented on the moon before.

So that's an interesting one to look out for. I think also just sticking with what happened yesterday, it was, I understand, the first woman launch director of NASA, Charlie Blackwell Thompson, at the head of it yesterday. How significant was that, especially for you, as you say, inspired by the 60s and coming into this space? It is a fabulous reflection that the representation across the sector is getting better. It was marvellous for me as someone who's worked in mission control to see that.

To me, it should be unremarkable. It's just the right person for the right job. And I hope that we continue to just see the right people from all different backgrounds in all these roles. The role models are important and the space sector needs people. The UK space sector needs people from every single different background to come join us. We're growing. We need people to join us. She did congratulate her team on being part of a first. It's not by chance, she said, you're here today. You've earned your place in the room. You've're here today. You've earned your place in the room. You've earned this moment. You've earned your place in history.

And going on to say, it doesn't come along very often. Once in a career, maybe, but we're all part of something incredibly special. The first launch of Artemis. For you, there's also the understanding, the aim, the final aim was also to send a woman to Mars. I mean, how's that looking? I do think I will see that in my lifetime.

You do? Yeah, this Horizon goal has been there since the moon missions of the 60s and 70s. And we've always talked about going to Mars. This Artemis program will enable us to learn how to live and work outside the protection of the Earth's magnetic field, away from the International Space Station, out in deep space. And so we are taking steps to learn how to do this. And so that goal is coming a little bit closer.

And I think in a few decades' time, we will see that human endeavour is still trying to take us there. How do you, just thinking about the political context we're talking in, is it difficult to justify this exploration, you know, no matter of the huge inspiration it gives, with the costs involved, especially in the economic climate? It is absolutely a fair question. From the UK perspective, the UK government would not be joining these international endeavours if there wasn't a strong economic business case there which

i have to write for every pound that we invest in this program we see 10 pounds returned to the uk economy and the sector is growing in what way do we see it returned uh through commercialization through inward investment uh the government invests, we enable companies to then sell their wares overseas and so on. We are seeing in the development of the lunar missions, commercial instruments, things like LIDARs, laser range finders, are being sold to American companies. So it's this kind of growth that we see. And it's a growing sector, which is very important.

Space underpins all of our everyday lives. The inspirational factor that we get from joining these exploration missions, from being a part of Artemis, from going to the moon and Mars, allows us to have these conversations that we're having today to shine a light on the importance of space and the space sector. And that is the bonus that sort of sits on top of these strong, justified economic cases. I think the other thing to point out is that I think it's cost less than people think. But all of the UK's efforts in exploration, being part of Artemis, the International Space Station, missions to Mars, which are bringing back rocks that will bring amazing science results.

It costs about a pound per person per year, cost of a packet crisps or a cup of coffee. And it's absolutely something to be considered if people can afford that pound in where we're at. But I think if you ask people how much does space exploration cost, they would consider it to be a lot more expensive than it actually is.

Do you want to get on a spacesuit, get training, do any of that side of things? Or are you happy behind the desk making the inspiration case and the finance case? Oh, I've been lucky enough to do some parabolic flights and be weightlessness to go to space. I'd love it. But it is essentially like camping.

The astronauts who spend six months on the space station have tinned food, no showers showers very cramped conditions but with beautiful views and you know an amazing job so uh yeah i i'd gladly go given the opportunity libby jackson of the uk space agency well one of the women in the uk who's directly supporting the artemis one is olivia smedley who works at the goon hilly space station in cornwall i managed to catch a quick word with her this morning while she was on shift. Goonhilly made history yesterday by being the only tracking support in the UK for the Artemis 1 moon launch. I asked her what that meant to her. Yeah yesterday was an incredibly exciting day here at Goonhilly and we have been kind of shadow tracking the Orion spacecraft since the launch and receiving signals from it,

which is super exciting to be doing something like that down here in Cornwall. And you've been in the ops room since early this morning. Tell us a bit about your role and what we're going to be likely to be tracking and seeing. So my role as a space scientist, I work as part of the operations team. So actually operating our huge goon hilly six antenna which is 32 meters in diameter to actually track deep space spacecraft and actually communicate with the spacecraft so this morning we have been again supporting artemis looking at signals from the cubesats which we are supporting cubes okay, I'm trying to get my head around. Okay, CubeSats are a tiny little spacecraft, really,

about the size of a shoebox, and there was 10 of these on board. We're supporting six of them, and they're all doing different scientific experiments, really. For instance, one that we're supporting is called Luna HMAP, which is going to actually map hydrogen on the moon. So super exciting scientific stuff that we're getting from those. And I also imagine it's a great job to have. How is it for you?

Yeah, for me, it's a dream job. I mean, I've always had a kind of passion for space ever since I was younger, kind of dragging my telescope out into the garden looking at the stars and planets and kind of followed that passion through studied astrophysics and to have kind of the opportunity to be a part of the operations team here working with the likes of the European Space Agency and NASA on some of their you know huge missions here in Cornwall is brilliant well I'll bet and a lot of people won't even know that that's what's going on in Cornwall so it's

fascinating to hear from you this morning and I wonder how many how many women are working alongside you at the station we hear a lot about efforts being made to to boost the number of women in these sorts of roles yes yeah um well when when I first started about three and a half years ago here at Goonhilly, I was the only female in the engineering team here. So I'm part of the operations team, of which there are nine of us, and there are another two females working in the team with me. So not quite the 50-50 split, but yeah, I think it's definitely improving and it will be great to inspire the next generation of women to look for jobs and roles in the space industry. It's a really exciting field and the industry is growing rapidly.

Olivia's medley at Goonhilly Space Station in Cornwall. Now, something else completely different, which you may or may not know very much about but it's worth understanding a bit more and certainly that's the view that you can glean from a new documentary because recent data analysis for a new Channel 4 programme estimates that there are 18,000 incels or involuntary celibates globally. Two and a half thousand are based in the UK. The majority of these individuals are men. The incel message has been growing in certain places online. A message of rage and envy, hatred, entitlement and violence towards women that has led to some horrific incidents. The

world of the incel is one in which people's entire social circles are anonymous users on the other side of the planet and users see themselves as too ugly to ever be loved or strange or too strange to ever be cared for. I'm joined now in the studio by Ben Zand, the presenter of this new Channel 4 documentary, The Secret World of Incels, and Dr Caitlin Reguer, an Associate Professor in Digital Humanities at UCL.

Welcome to you both. Ben, I understand it took a year to be able to infiltrate and speak to some of these men. Who are it took a year to be able to infiltrate and speak to some of these men. Who are they and why are they so hard to access? I mean, there are a lot of kind of different men in different environments. I think they're hard to access because they're inherently kind of, you know, in the darker reaches of the internet. They're people who kind of struggle with loneliness and social anxiety and also who inherently have a kind of mistrust of of mainstream media so um uh they were kind of not necessarily the most forthcoming and wanting to be in a documentary uh in the first

place um so the kind of whole process took a long time and i think just to kind of on the one of the facts there that 18 000 figure is just on one of the biggest incel sites it's not actually i mean i'd say there's there's a lot more men around the world who kind of have have these thoughts um and what are these thoughts how would you typify it i mean you know there's this an ideology called the kind of black pill it's a kind of i'd classify it as a conspiracy theory, really, and the idea that the most important thing in the world is looks. Women are kind of uncontrollably attracted to good-looking men

and the rest of the male world of men who aren't above, say, seven or eight in the kind of attractive stakes are just kind of utterly pointless and they're not going to have a kind of hope of getting any success and it's it's a kind of load of men who have you know lost hope the kind of community just teaches real despair and quite often they'll then place all that blame on women and is that what they're talking about when they're communicating I mean yes that what they're talking about when they're communicating? I mean, yes. I mean, they're talking about, they just, I mean, it is a conspiracy theory.

You know, the kind of ideas of the world are just, are difficult to understand. You know, they quite often talk about the only kind of, you know, the main thing for a man is to have the right jaw shape. You know, so, you know, there's this kind of idea of the ultimate man which is a chad you know it's like a really good looking male who gets everything he wants and can just walk up to a woman and take care if he wants um so it's all very problematic and i think they hate themselves primarily uh and they're looking for someone to blame and quite often that lands upon on women because they're the people who are rejecting them kaylin let me bring you into this there might be those who are listening thinking. Caitlin, let me bring you into this.

There might be those who are listening thinking, well, maybe I don't need to concern myself with this, but do we need to be concerned by it? Yeah, so I think what the documentary exemplifies very well is how through high dosages of internet usage, these type of ideologies become normalized for young people. One thing that I'm seeing at the moment is that we're almost entering a second act of incel. And that is that these ideologies are moving off of forums such as Reddit or 4chan and moving into popular youth culture more generally. They

are becoming saturated. So they're now on TikTok and they're now in schoolyards. And this is what I'm calling incel 2.0. And I think this new movement is even more concerning. In what way? What does that mean? Well, it means that we have a more generalized misogyny moving through youth cultures. So we're there. If Incel 1.0, if we can call it that, was about isolation and loneliness, Incel 2.0 is about banding together around the language of Incel and finding empowerment through that language. And are there particular role models in this or leaders in this space? Or how are younger people perhaps getting the ideology of it? So there are absolutely in celebrities, I suppose, and influencers in this community. There's also, if we look to kind of TikTokers like Tate or Peterson.

These are popular ideologies as well. But ultimately, what these languages are helping young people, I think, articulate is a fear of loss of control in what is a bleak time for many young people at the moment. And I think it's really about they're latching on to this language and this culture to find an answer and a point of blame for this fear of loss of control. What was it like for you to look at this as a man, Ben, try and like relate to some of these men and how they're viewing the world? It's probably I think it's the most depressing

documentary I've ever made, without a shadow of a doubt. I mean, I think, you know, it was a combination of shock, you know, at some of the things they believed. You know, there's a kind of bit where I'm talking to a guy and he thinks if he walks up to a woman, she's going to start literally beating herself and then accuse him of domestic violence. You know, that's the kind of ideas

that the community's propagating. But I think it was also one of just kind of sadness uh in that sense i mean i think a lot of the guys i was speaking to weren't evil you know they were vulnerable extremely vulnerable people who uh were extremely isolated you know don't have normal interactions or kind of you know people kind of moderating them in real life saying to them hey you know that thing you've just said there's a little bit problematic um so i think it was just it was just depressing it made me feel extremely sad one of the guys said he spoke to us just because he wanted to talk to someone you know and i think um and that was a kind of sense throughout which started it's a lot of people who you know we now live on the internet and we don't have kind of human

interactions in the way we once did. They're looking for a sense of community. They're looking for a sense of belonging and they feel really lost and lonely and horrible. And I think, you know, and then the one place that they've landed upon, you know, the kind of solution they found is also, you know, the problem. So it's making them worse. So it was just, it was sad.

What about taking them seriously in terms of being a physical or violent threat in the real world? You know, authorities looking at these individuals, Caitlin. Yeah, so that's right. This type of movement hasn't been looked on in the same way that we have seen with other forms of extremism. That's for sure. We still hear the lone wolf narrative related to incel violence. And I think that that's probably because misogyny is not that other in our society. It's hard to otherize it. So what does that mean in terms of do we need authorities to be taking this more seriously, do you think? Are there real world

threats from this community? I think we need to look at the pattern of behavior that's happening online where young people are being indoctrinated into a plethora of different violent hateful communities and and what what could be the solution to this to try and bring about different ways of thinking and if people have gone into this world of men it's i know that you also do talk to to some women it's very few i should say in that space but mainly for the men what what do you see as some of the ways out so there are some grassroots organizations i'm i'm involved with master mentors in violence prevention in scotland which uses peer-to-peer learning older boys mentoring younger boys around these issues, as we kind of see Ben do in the documentary that kind of comes through and that's successful. But I think more broadly,

we need to be teaching critical digital literacy to young people. So we need to teach them to think critically about the digital space, help them understand the implications of the online world on their mental and physical health. And then we need to get them all involved in co-creating new codes of conduct for the online world in which they live. At the moment, that's not happening. And we're letting them down. They have to navigate this very difficult terrain alone. Dr. Caitlin Regan, thank you. Thank you to you, Ben Zahn. And I should say, The Secret World of Incels is available on all four now. And also the names you're talking about, influencers there, of course, people not here to respond for themselves about this space,

but it'd be interesting to talk about this more and perhaps speak to some of those who do identify like this. But as Ben said, very hard to identify and get them perhaps to come to the mainstream media. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.