Woman's Hour - The Brit Awards. Targeted adverts online. The ages of motherhood. Welsh Rugby.

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

The Brits scrapped their best male and best female awards last year in favour of gender-neutral prizes. This year no women are on the shortlist for best artist - won by Adele last year - though are nominated in other categories. Social media has been awash with fans of musicians like Charlie XCX, Florence Welch, Mabel and Ella Henderson asking why they'd been overlooked. We hear from journalist Laura Snapes the Guardian's music editor and Vick Bain who's worked in the music industry for 25 years, was the CEO of the British Academy of Songwriters, Composers & Authors and founder of The F-List directory of UK female musicians. Several former employees at the Welsh Rugby Union have told the BBC about a ‘toxic’ culture of sexism at the organisation. Nuala McGovern is joined by former Wales rugby international and Labour MP Tonia Antoniazzi. Do you ever wonder why you’re being shown particular adverts online? Nuala speaks to one woman, Hannah Tomes, who is being advertised egg donation banks despite having no interest in this – she wonders if she’s being advertised to because of her gender – we will seek to find out if she’s right and speak to the BBC’s Technology Editor Zoe Kleinman. Figures from the ONS show that there are now twice as many women giving birth over the age of 40 as there are having children under the age of 20. But does the age you become a mother change the way you experience parenting? We hear from two women who had children at very different points in their lives…Lucy Baker the founder of the blog Geriatric Mum and Lauren Crosby Medlicott a freelance journalist who has written about her experience as a young mum.Presenter Nuala McGovern Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to our programme and good to have your company today. We're going to begin by looking at allegations of sexism at the Welsh Rugby Union. As former employees speak out, the Welsh Labour MP, Tanya Antoniazzi, has written to the Prince of Wales as patron of the WRU for a meeting to, and I quote, create a better future for women and girls

in rugby in Wales. Well, she is here, so we're going to speak to her about what she thinks needs to change and why. We're also going to talk about algorithms. Why are you seeing the ads that you were seeing when you scroll? Well, I went into my settings on Instagram.

Here are some of the ad topics that I am being shown. Arabian horses, monster trucks and the Virginia Cavaliers basketball team. Why? I don't know. I don't think I've been expressed an interest in any of those topics, but our guests will help us decipher

why you are targeted with certain ads and what you can do to change what is popping up on your feeds. Egg donation is what one of our guests has been bombarded with. The number to text is 84844 and the text will be charged at your standard message rate. Here's a line. This is new numbers out from the ONS, the Office for National Statistics. They're about motherhood and they caught our eye. There are now twice as many women giving birth over the age of 40 as there are having children as teenagers in England and Wales. So the average age, 30.9 years old. And I'm wondering, you know, what age were you when you had kids and how do you think it played into your parenting? Looking back, would you do it differently? Or maybe you're

thinking about kids and also thinking about your age, like when is the ideal age? I think everybody says you're never ready. But however, we do have one older and one younger mum joining us to talk it through. Some of you must have us on speed dial because I'm already seeing the text coming in. Here's Elaine. She says, both older and younger mums face judgment from strangers, social circles and professionals alike.

Just had my third at 47 and the assumptions are more tiring than my baby. Do you feel like Elaine? Get in touch. You can also, apart from the text, at 84844. We're also at BBC Women's Hour on social media or you can email us through your website.

Other ways, WhatsApp or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444 and the data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. The Brit Awards, are you following this? The annual UK Popular Music Industry Awards. Well, they found themselves coming under heavy criticism as its best artist category. It's gender neutral since last year. It has all male nominees.

Women are represented in other categories. But is it one step forward and three steps back? That's as Tim Burgess of the Charlottesons called it. Or could it be a blip this year? Or maybe something more pervasive, showing the difficulty faced by women to get ahead in the industry. We're going to talk about all that as well.

It's coming up. And if those you want to chime in on, you have the number there to get in touch. But I do want to turn to Welsh Rugby Union. There are several former employees there that have told the BBC about a toxic culture of sexism at the organisation. Now, in one incident, a male employee at the WRU allegedly said

that he wanted to rape a female colleague. BBC Wales Investigates has spoken to two women who have since left the organisation who said that alleged bullying and sexism at the organisation left them feeling suicidal. Charlotte Witham is the former general manager of the Welsh women's rugby, and she says that a male colleague once said in front of other staff that he wanted to rape her. There was an attitude that it was okay to make derogatory comments, to make sexist slash sexual comments around women or about women within groups of the organisation. It was always sort of palmed off as banter. The WRU says Ms. Watham's allegations remain unsubstantiated

following a thorough independent legal investigation. The organisation says it takes any allegations from staff seriously and is committed to equality diversity and inclusion and also said that it could not now comment because her case has been settled. I want to bring in Tanya Antoniazzi

a Labour MP from Gower also former Wales Rugby International. You're very welcome. Hi. Listening to that clip and I know you've looked at this a little more deeply your first thoughts it's just heartbreaking this is really is heartbreaking that we are in this situation where a sport that i love and so many women and girls absolutely live and breathe rugby all over Wales and to know that when to know that this has even ever happened let alone that this has happened to more than one person and there are others out there that just

don't have the bravery because they don't have the financial resilience or the mental resilience to be able to call out and talk about their experiences working within the WRU. Have you been aware of allegations of this type previous to this investigation? I am aware of other cases and, you know, women have spoken to me about their experiences within the WRU and they are various, but they are all sexist experiences and where they just have not been stood up for. sporting governance. We need to have the ability for women and girls to be able to have a go-to point and know that if they do have an issue that it is investigated properly and in the case of Charlotte this wasn't investigated properly and the right people

were not spoken to. With these cases there were different people that approached you if I have that correct. Talk me through that. I've These cases, there were different people that approached you, if I have that correct. Correct. Talk me through that. I go to rugby games. I'm quite high profile. I talk to lots of different people and they feel that they can open up to me and talk to me about their experiences. we know we've heard or we will hear in the programme this evening about a woman that actually

actually was planning what her husband would do once she was no longer with us. The fact that a woman is planning her own suicide because she cannot bear to work in such an environment I have no words and I'm so desperately sad,

desperately sad that we cannot have, that this toxicity is still around. It's just awful. And what I want to come out of this is that the WIU stop putting out platitudes, which they have done today, and say sorry and say we have made mistakes and that we will work to be better. That's what is needed. What they have said is the Welsh Rugby Union, they've told us that they take any allegations from staff regarding behaviour, attitude,

language seriously and that such behaviour has no place in the WRU or Welsh rugby. And if any allegations are substantiated, they will act swiftly. Substantiated. Well, you know, they want basically

to put women in their place. That's how it feels, Nuala. Absolutely. They want... Expl explore that a little bit further put them in their place what do you mean by that I it's you you have to say so for example if somebody makes a sexist comment to you you have to have evidence that that was said or it becomes a bit of a he said she said in the case of Charlie the person who was accused of doing this was not even spoken to the people that charlotte had given names for they had not been spoken to in their independent investigation and why do you think that was because they're not doing it properly they They're marking their own homework. They're all looking after each other's backs.

They're just not doing things properly. This is a problem in sporting governance. They are not accountable to anybody. They keep things private. Everything's dealt with so that they get the outcome that they want. And that's problematic. It's problematic not just for women, but anybody involved in the sport.

You, as I mentioned, played for your country. Did you experience sexism? Well, when I played for Wales, it wasn't part of the WRU. The sexism that I came across was attitudinal and it was sexist. It would be older men asking me, you know, what do you do? What do you do with these? You know, when you're playing, you know,

it's that kind of reference to your breasts, you know, what do you do with them? You're quite a big girl. How does that work? You know, and you think, oh, this is so tedious and unnecessary. And there is no way today that that would be accepted. But those were casual, everyday sexism and it is still rife in sport in Wales. But some of these allegations that we mentioned this morning, of course, are very serious. Yeah. And I've read what the WRU says in response, but you're talking about that there needs to be some other structure in place. How do you see that? I mean, what is the solution? We had, for example, the Tracy Crouch review. Is

it something like that? Something that goes into systemically what is happening? Yes, that is exactly what we need. I mean, I have called for an independent regulator of governing bodies in Wales. I would like to see the Welsh Government, Sport Wales, other governing bodies have, you know, the power to be able to hold the WRU to account because there has to be somewhere. And Tracy Crouch's review on, you know, fan-led review was absolutely brilliant.

Sporting governance is a massive issue. We had the issues in gymnastics, in cricket, and it took the brave and the bold to stand up and be counted. And I very much hope that women will come forward now with their experiences. These are former employees that have come forward. I mean, do you think this could be the catalyst? I hope that this is a catalyst because we need to move forward. Something has to change. The WRU needs to modernise. There need to be more women at the table,

better representation, and we need to have fairness in sport. More women at the table, but if there is this toxic culture, which has been alleged, which the WRU has denied, that could be quite a hurdle. It is a hurdle because, it is a hurdle because why would you want to

put yourself in that position? You know, I know that we had there has been a statement from Amanda Blanc who's the chief exec of Aviva and she didn't feel that she could stay and fight and that is very, very disappointing.

Some might say you're an MP. Why aren't you driving more change or achieved more change if you feel so passionately about this? That's why I'm part of this programme this evening. That's why I have been working very hard behind the scenes. But unfortunately, it has come to where we are now that it is in the public domain. And I hope that this will get other women to come forward.

But I have been working on this and it is something I feel very, very passionately about. Thank you for coming in, Tanya Antoniazzi. And you can see more on that story. It's called Welsh Rugby Under the Spotlight. You can catch it on iPlayer from 5pm today or on BBC One Wales at 8pm. You're listening to Woman's Hour. I want to move on to another story. I was mentioning at the beginning about the adverts,

the ones that you see that perhaps are coming up on your feeds. Maybe if you're listening to us on your phone, for example, maybe in the past you've searched for a sofa and then you got bombarded with adverts for sofas or something related. And it does kind of ask the question, what does the internet know about you or think it knows about you?

And what assumptions is it making about you based on perhaps your age, location, gender, search history? Well, it's something that my next two guests are very interested in. Hannah Tomes is with us. She's a writer for The Spectator magazine who has looked into this after her and her friends were being advertised egg donation banks. She wanted to find out what did they know about her online.

And also we have the BBC's technology editor, Zoe Kleinman. You're both very welcome. Hello, Hannah. Hi. Hi, Zoe. Good to have you with us too. Hi. Let's start with you, Hannah.

So when did this start? Tell me about the egg donation bank ads. I would say I probably started first getting them about six months ago, just after I turned 28. So I think probably they thought I was prime, prime sort of age for that kind of thing. And it started like quite slowly. I think I went on and had like one or two little adverts. They kept popping up and it was very much like £750 compensation, like the possibility of maybe some money off egg freezing,

if you could donate some, things like that. There were quite a few of them. And then I started to click through on them because I was just, it seemed a really odd thing to me to be advertised. So I was like, maybe I'll have a little look. Oh, that's when it all started maybe. Yeah. And then I think after I clicked them, I started getting more of them because obviously then algorithms on social media think that you're interested in a certain thing.

And so it came. And with that, was it something you had searched before or that you remember or had an interest in? No, not really. Not that I can ever remember searching like maybe years ago maybe I did if I was like it came across it and thought thought it was interesting or something but I it wasn't like I was constantly searching for egg donation stuff or searching for anything like parent related or anything like that. So you did have a look to see what information Instagram held about you what did you find? Well there's this there's a tab called add interest

it's under settings um and it's it comes up where and it says um that these are the interests that advertisers use to reach you so basically it's who you are you are to advertisers um and apparently you're added based on your activity and also information that you've provided to Instagram such as your age or your gender or your location um and some of them are pretty accurate yeah i went on and looked see there's it's basically endless scroll like you could keep looking through there for hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of results there are so many um and loads of vine were quite accurate so like labrador retriever came up a lot i love dogs so yeah that makes things like that like those make sense but then i would get things like engagement rings or

i'd get mother care or get baby clothes things like that, which are not things that I'm searching. Not in your sphere. I had a look at mine. I was telling my listeners monster trucks came up, Arabian horses, things that I have not looked up. But, you know, why don't we bring in Zoe here for a moment? Why are we seeing these things, Zoe? What sort of information are they holding on us that might be surprising? I think it's always fascinating when you get these stories of people who are baffled by the ads that they see because you would not believe the amount of information about you that follows you around on the internet.

And whenever I talk about this, you know, people are just astonished by the amount of data that you give away all the time. You've got to bear in mind everywhere you go on the net, everything you do, you are being tracked, not by name, but by you have an anonymous number, right? Which is tied to your device. So let's say your phone is not linked to you by name. But in a way, it doesn't really have to be because there's so much information about you. It's worked out who you are, how old you are, where you live, what you buy, what you look at. It also looks at what your friends are doing, you know, via things like social networks. And this is happening all the time. And next time

you're looking at a website, right, as it's loading, you might notice there's an advertising space at the top. And for a moment, a split second as it's loading, you might notice there's an advertising space at the top. And for a moment, a split second, it's blank. And then it fills with an advert in front of you. You watch it fill up. What's happening in that split second is there's a real-time bid going on between hundreds of ad brokers for your eyeballs. And they're using all of this data that they've already got about you. Well, not about you personally, but about your device, which is pretty much you.

And they're using that. It's all automated. Obviously, this could not happen with humans. It's far too quick. But it's happening in that moment to decide which advert to show you. And next time you see it, remember that. It's an absolutely weird thing to think about, isn't it? But you are constantly shedding all of this data.

And another thing that happens sometimes, which is kind of weird, I don't know if this might explain your monster trucks. If you're sharing Wi Fi in house with other devices, sometimes it can misfire and you can get adverts that were intended for another device. So for example, my partner is a Birmingham City fan and I get the odd advert for Birmingham City and I can absolutely guarantee you that has nothing to do with me. Yeah, I'm thinking the Virginia Cavaliers basketball team might be my partner instead of me.

But I mean, is there anything we should be doing with this? When I went through the ad interest, there are ways we can change, filter, etc. Should we be trying to change that? I mean, I suppose, what is the biggest issue

of being pushed those particular ads? I think it depends how you feel about it. And I think it's important to decide how you feel about it, actually. The business model of most of the internet is this. The reason that you can access all of this information and all of this stuff online for free is because it's being funded by this advertising revenue. You know, that is what's fueling it. That's why you don't have to

pay every time you log on to use Google, for example. And so you have to sort of decide whether you're at peace with that. People who are in favour of it would say, well, you know, the better targeted advertising is, the more useful it is, right? You know, if you're being targeted with stuff that you actually want, then arguably it's a service and it's not an annoyance. That's what they would argue. However, as you say, you know, it does get it wrong. If you want to, you can try these filters. I recently signed up to TikTok and the only interest I said I had was science and tech. And so far, all the videos I've had have been makeup, parenting, you know, stuff that's very sort of stereotypically

related to my gender, I think, because TikTok doesn't know a lot about me yet, apart from the fact that I'm a woman and I'm probably maybe no my age. And so I'm getting targeted with what it thinks I want rather than what I've said I want. The other thing, of course, you can do if you have an iPhone, an Apple device in 2021, they introduced an opt-out process. So you can select to opt out of apps tracking you. And guess what? Most people have. It turns out if you say to somebody,

do you want to be tracked? They say no. And, you know, big businesses like Meta, which owns Facebook, says it's had a big impact on its revenue because without being able to track you, these companies can't make money out of you. You bring up lots of issues there that I want to come back to you on, Zoe.

But what about that, Hannah? Are you at peace with getting bombarded with egg banks? I think that specific one I found a little bit unnerving just because it's such a massive decision. The people who donate eggs, I think, are incredible. But it's a huge decision to take because that is your genetic material. The child that results possibly at the end of it is like genetically your child. Even though you might not know them, they'll be a stranger, really.

You reminded me actually of when I lived in New York. Oh, I'm even talking about the best part of 20 years ago. They used to have the ads for egg donation on the subway. That'll tell you kind of how times have come on. Obviously, instead, it's in the app right now. But it used to target young people that were commuting in the morning. Coming back to the targeted ads, Zoe,

does that make sense for companies to be vying for that? Are people really clicking on them? Are they getting revenue from that? Well, it's kind of hard to track. The companies have all sorts of tools to help firms to try and figure out how successful these campaigns are. Because of course, if you can prove that your particular ad spot is working well and providing a return on investment, then

you can charge more for it. I mean, to be honest with you, it's a very complicated world. There are very complicated tools. There is no way really is there of scientifically proving it. But everyone is still doing it. It's worth saying, by the way, the brands themselves don't know. Whatever it is that goes into that box that you watch, it's got nothing to do with the brand. It's not kind of done at that end.

It's all worked out between these hundreds of brokers that are running algorithms all the time and trying to snap up this space. And there was a really interesting bit of research last year, by the way, which found that Europeans' data was shared for advertising purposes something like 376 times per day. Wow. I just see a lot of ads. Yes, a lot of ads. I see Melanie getting in touch saying the apps listen via the phone, microphone and target ads. And what you say, I went to Ikea at the weekend and now I'm seeing videos of the shelves we looked at. I hadn't searched for them. So I've looked into this before because so many people say that they they've had a conversation and then seen an ad immediately. I mean, I've had it myself and it's really unnerving.

And what I found was that technically it would be possible although legally morally another issue but in honesty you are just giving away so much information that your phone doesn't need to listen to you it already knows everything about you and you have to bear in mind as well the power of coincidence you know it might be that you'd seen that ad for Ikea a hundred times but because you've just been talking about it it was in your mind when you saw it again what about that throwing it back uh to melanie what about that hannah do you feel unnerved when certain ads start coming into you when you've had a conversation about something yeah i think it is quite creepy when you start to notice them but i think as i was saying partly maybe i have been seeing ads before for those kind of things and i'd only just noticed

because i'd started to notice them or because I'd had a conversation about them. And then you start to see them. But yeah, I do think it's quite unnerving when you get them and you think, how does my phone know that about me? Like, why are these ads coming up? How do advertisers know exactly what I've been thinking about or looking at? So let me throw that back. Let me throw it back to Zoe. You're talking about that our footprint is so all pervasive.

Maybe there's no way to put that genie back in the bottle or is there? I don't think you can completely unless you want to go totally off grid. I mean, you can you can certainly up your privacy settings. You can choose tracker free browsers you can opt out of tracking on apps if you have the right device and Google is also which runs Android phones most of us either have an iPhone or an Android phone is also starting to offer more options in terms of privacy but the fact is you only have to look at something once and you know we're three journalists here right I mean I bet your search histories are all completely mad because mine are and that totally confuses advertisers. Are you going to change do you think Hannah how you manage your social media feeds or

your advertisements? Well I think after I started getting all the egg donation ones I have actually just started reporting them as spam quite often because I don't particularly want to see those ads. I do the same with, I get a lot of flu camp ones as well. A lot of flu camp ones where they want to make you go and stay, where people who are doing medical trials want to make you go and stay somewhere for a week and pay you £1,000 to get injected with the flu. I get a lot of them as well and I always report them as spam. But then I don't mind the rest of them and I find them quite funny.

I get a lot of random river fishing and trout fishing things because I like gone fishing the programme and I follow Bob Mortimer. Oh yes! So I think I get quite a lot that are slightly off key. They're not things that I would necessarily actually want to do but I just find them quite funny. I should be getting ones for metal detecting

after watching The Detectorist or something like that. I'll watch out for it. Maybe it'll happen now. I want to thank both of you for coming in. We'll look at our feeds a little bit differently. Hannah Thoms from The Spectator and the BBC's technology editor, Zoe Kleinman. Thanks to you both. Now, working from home

or the new hybrid working week, it may become the new norm for many of us in the paid workforce, for now at least. But how does this affect the amount of domestic labour and the sharing of daily chores? Meaning all those unpaid household tasks, the childcare, the laundry,

the food shopping. What's done by men and women at home now? Who does the most chores in your house? And has it changed much since the pandemic? Are you happy

with the way it's all divided now? Well, we want to hear your experiences, your anecdotes, your grumbles, your home truths. Email the programme. And if you'd like to join us on air, please do leave a mobile number so we can contact you. I will let you know as well. 844 is the text number and it's at BBC Women's Hour on social media.

And again, you can email us through our website. We do hope you get in touch. I'm looking forward to hearing people's stories. How are we post-pandemic when it comes to that division of labour? Right, I want to turn on to music now. Oscar-winning singer Sam Smith, who identifies as non-binary, has said the absence of female musicians in the Artist of the Year category of 2023's Brit Awards shows there is still a long way to go.

And the nominations were announced a few weeks ago. And the fact there are no women on the list for this category, it's caused quite the stir. You might have seen on social media there were fans of musicians like Charlie XCX or Florence Welch, Mabel, Ella Henderson, asking why those women had been overlooked. It is the second year of the Brits adopting non-gendered categories for Best Artists and also International Artists. But it was in stark contrast to 2022 when Adele won and Women or Female Fronted Acts won 10 of those 15 awards. I just want to bring you a tiny bit of Adele on what she had to say last year as she accepted the award. I understand why the name of this award has changed,

but I really love being a woman and being a female artist. I do. I do. I'm really proud of us. I really, really am. Thank you so much. But what about this year?

Well, we have Laura Snapes, the Guardian's music editor, and also Vic Bain, who's worked in the music industry for 25 years, the president of the Independent Society of Musicians and founder of the F List Directory of UK Female Musicians. You're both so welcome. Perhaps I'll start with you, Laura, for people that are just catching up with this story. Why did the Brits go gender neutral last year? It went gender neutral last year because it was in 2021 that Sam Smith wasn't eligible

for any of the prizes because they are non-binary. They didn't fit into the male or female categories, despite being one of the biggest commercial artists of the year. And that's what the Brit Awards is set up to award. And they made a statement at the time

saying they looked forward to a time where everybody could be celebrated at the Brits. That was in around February 2021. And then nine months later, the Brits announced that they would do away with the gendered categories and have a general best artist category as well as a set of new best genre categories. But here we are with this list of guys and no gals. Do you think they thought about this in advance, that this could happen? It's really hard to tell. I find that organisations like the Brit Awards, they are very powerful,

but when they get to situations like this, it's like they negate their power and they act like they were powerless to do anything about it. Yes, it is a result of the vote from the voting body, which is 1,200 people, I think. But if the Brits saw that this was going to be the outcome, I think they could very easily change the voting process so that they took the top three male artists, the top three female artists involved in a non-binary artist who got a high amount of votes as well, just to bounce out, because otherwise they're inevitably going to come into this sort of criticism. And it's just going to become, you know, a self-fulfilling prophecy. Vic, you're nodding there. Yes, I am. What do you think? Yes, I think the problem, it's a pipeline problem for the Brits.

I've said this for years and my experience running music awards ceremonies. The pool of female musicians who are eligible for awards is very low because record labels only sign 20% of their rosters are women, 80% are men. So the pipeline into the Brits is very, very low. So even getting into that at the entry level, shall we say, why is that? There's lots of systemic sexism and stereotyping going on for women. Most record labels are run by men. It doesn't matter what size, the small indies right up to the major labels. And the A&Rs, the talent scouts for the music industry are men and they tend to sign far, far fewer women. And why aren't there more

women in those A&R roles? It is changing. If you went right up to the 90s, it was definitely all men. And women are breaking into the music industry, especially at the lower to the mid-levels, but still not at the top. It's very much a male-dominated, a white male-dominated industry. And we see this in the musicians who are being signed and supported because it's not just about being signed to a label it's about staying on the label as well and having investment in your music career is it something with the uk i mean i took a look at the grammys and they have been gender neutral for years and just having a quick look down through some of the nominations,

it seemed to be more evenly split between men and women. And I don't know whether that is some of their stars, like Beyonce, of course, Eliza, they are there, Mary J. Blige, for example. Is there anything specific about the UK? No, the research coming out of America is very similar, actually. So if you look at the Annenberg University analysis of the top 100 Billboard charts, it's something like 20 to never more than 25% of the artists on those songs are women, and about 12% of the songwriters are women, and the Grammys has about 70 awards. Yes, they had everything from... Yeah, it's quite a different type of award ceremony.

So no, actually in Australia, in the data across Europe and in America and Canada, the statistics do show that there are significant barriers for women starting and sustaining their music careers. So let's go back to this then with the actual nomination procedure, Laura. I mean, what do people need to have to be able to be within that pool? And also who is voting for it? And so the voting body is made up of 1200 people from across the music industry. It can be journalists, people who work at record labels, people who work in radio and qualify for the Best Artist Award. An artist has to have achieved at least one top 40 album or two top 20 singles during the year long eligibility period.

And were there enough women that hit that mark? No. So in the there was 71 artists who were eligible altogether. Twelve of them were women and one of them was non-binary, which was Kay Tempest. So that already puts the statistics at a lower point to be able to hit that group. Yes, totally. And I agree with what Vic's saying about statistics. But I will say also that I think that the British music industry has a really parochial attitude to developing young female artists. If you look at the list of the women who were eligible, you have people like Florence and Machine, Emily Sandé, Charlie XCX, Beth Orton, Kay Tempest, artists whose careers started before the advent of streaming. So they were able to build careers, they were able to have

missteps, they were able to change tack, really build a fan base who likes them for what they do. And then on the other side of the line, it's people who have emerged post-streaming who are a lot more poppy the sort of girls who girls young women whose voices you'll hear on kind of like big dance bangers and they're not given the chance to develop in the same way because they live or die by streaming stats and it's really interesting as well if you compare them to the sorts of young male artists who are assigned especially if you look at rappers a rap artist a male rap artist will have a lot more prolific a release schedule they'll put out loads of singles you know it's about sort of the craft rather than every single one of them needing to be a hit whereas for women

the impetus is to be a hit and if you don't have a hit you're going to get dropped or you're going to get put into the sort of dance banger guest vocalist machine and that detracts from your artistry so I think you know that that for me feels like a very parochial attitude a lot of young women aren't given the chance to develop into artists in a particularly interesting way and I think one really good example is the pop star Ray who was signed to Polydor for years I think she had had seven top 10 hits or something like that um and um she which she still hadn't been allowed to release her own solo album and she complained about this online a year or two ago she ended up parting ways with her album with her record label polydor since then she's been an

independent artist she's put out really really interesting music so much better than what she did before her new her debut album is finally coming out next month and it's really highly anticipated and so i think she sort of proves the constraints and the the conservatism that is put on this sort of young artist and what they can achieve outside of those limited visions for them in the major label system. So with that model that Laura outlines, Vic, I mean, is that something that other women could follow? Well, I know so many female musicians who have maybe briefly been signed to labels, and then they have not, you know, they've extracted themselves because they prefer DIY, they prefer being independent artists because they have more control.

I'm halfway through a PhD exploring women's careers in music so I'm interviewing a lot of women right now and I'm hearing horror stories about the way women are being treated by labels. For example? way women are being treated by by labels for example oh you know having to um weigh themselves daily and send send photographs of of how much they weigh how much they weigh on the scales and having to send those photos into the into their label every day every day every day every day because they are you know they're being put on on diets and they have to look a certain way and then discussions about plastic surgery starts. And at that point, that's not a path for every female musician.

So they try and extricate themselves from their deals. Do men go through that? No. With just also what Laura has been outlining, the way their career is so different in the sense of a release schedule, in the sense of what the opportunities that they're given. How do you break that? Well, having discussions like this, I mean, actually, the Brits in the VPI, in a way, it has done us all a favour because it's taken the sticking plaster, the mask off the inequality in the music industry so we can start to have proper nuanced conversations like this about what's going on. Having male, female, gender protected categories was good for women because women stood a better chance of winning. But

it did hide the inequality that's going on in the rest of the industry. I mean, some may say that the Brits were really trying to do something positive by making it non-gender, trying to have this, you know, equal playing field really for people. And I suppose there are many names like Adele or Beyonce. I know Beyonce not within the Brits, but, you know, within the music industry that are huge, that are bigger, probably than most of their male counterparts. But that only works

if there is an equal playing field. If labels were signing 50-50 men and women and, you know, and everything in between, then fair enough enough we would have awards which reflected that but we really don't it's quite stark is it different than laura do you think whether it's a solo artist like best artists where we have here the male categories compared to bands because we see wet leg with all their nominations they're a female duo wolf alice last year, that won it.

Well, it's interesting because I think really the past couple of years is the first time that we've really seen women in the best band category. Usually, sorry, that we've seen women-led rock groups in the best band category. Usually it's a bunch of boys with guitars and then some girl bands. And we don't really have any girl bands at the moment or any big at that level. Little Mix have finished now. You know, the Rising Star Award this year was won by Flow, which is a pop R&B trio.

So hopefully they might have success in that category in the future. But yeah, I would say that that category is usually very conservative in and of itself. And it's only because of the massive success of Wet Leg and also the album success of Nova Twins. It's really exciting to see a black female rock duo in that category that has changed that this year. Vic Snodding, what sort of impact does it have to win an award like this? Vic? Well, it has an almost immediate financial impact in the record labels, you know, enter the Brits and other competitions like this because it's fantastic exposure for the artists. That means more sales. So it has a very positive financial impact for that artist.

You know, Charli XCX, we mentioned there briefly as well, who was not a nominator. I would definitely put Charli in there by far. I think that she's had an incredible year. She put out a record called Crash, which is her last album on the major label she's been signed to since she was 14. And, you know, over that sort of 15, 16 years that she's had an incredible year she put out a record called crash which is her last album on the major label she's been signed to since she was 14 and you know over that sort of 15 16 years that she's been on the label she's never been shy about talking about the disagreements that they've had she's a very headstrong artist she's got a really strong vision sometime you know this album

that she put out last year is very poppy but she's also made incredibly avant-garde you know really clattery abrasive sort of pop music as well she has changed the sound of music and I think you know she's one of the most influential artists working right now and yeah crashed the record that she put out last year the concept of it was I'm going to make a major label album the major label way I'll work with songwriters I'll learn full choreo I will write the biggest bang as I possibly can and it was her biggest record and I don't think it's just because she was sort of selling out commercially but because you can tell that she really believed in the concept and also because she spent so long shaping pop from the sidelines that she's kind of just stepping into a lane

that she's kind of been influencing anyway. What have they said? Charlie, Ray, Florence, you know, who might have expected a nomination, have they spoken out? Oh, I'm not sure if they have. Ray wouldn't have been eligible because she didn't... Oh, yes, she wasn't....for that period. But hopefully she will be next year, especially once her sure if they have. Ray wouldn't have been eligible because she didn't. Oh, yes, she wasn't. For that period.

But hopefully she will be next year, especially once her album has come out. What about you, Vic, if you were to choose somebody, if you were in the judges' chair? Yes, I would have definitely chosen Charli XCX, definitely. I thought, yeah, her album, yes, it was very poppy, but you listen to the lyrics and, you know, she's got her tongue in her cheek

the whole way through those songs yeah she just she smashed it and there you go Laura Snapes and Vic Bain thanks so much lots of food for thought there

I think I'll think differently when I'm listening to female artists thanks for coming in I do want to read also a statement from the Brits they say this year's Brits promise to again

showcase the very best of music talent from the Brits. They say this year's Brits promise to again showcase the very best of music talent from the UK and around the globe with the nominations reflecting artists of all backgrounds and a wide breadth of music genres.

Last year's introduction of new categories aimed at making the awards even more inclusive, recognising exceptional work rather than how artists identify. It saw women artists thrive,

winning 10 of the 15 awards on the night and Adele being crowned inaugural artist of the year. We're pleased to see Wet Leg leading the nominations with four nods and Flo winning the rising star and artist such as Nova Twins also included in this year's shortlist.

And while it's disappointing there are no nominations in the artist of the year category, we also have to recognise that 2022 saw fewer high profile women artists in cycle with major releases as was the case in 2021. These trends based around the release schedule are a feature of the music industry,

but if over time a pattern emerges, then this puts the onus on the industry to deal with this important issue. And the BPI, that's the British Phonographic Institute, is already carrying out a major study to identify barriers that may inhibit more women becoming successful in music so there can be solutions that result in meaningful change.

So that is what they have to say about it. They're taking place actually a few weeks time, so no doubt we'll keep an ear and an eye out for that as well. Right, next, I want to move on, move back to motherhood. I have to say, a lot of you getting in touch, thanks so much for all your messages coming in. It's about the age that people are having babies. Let me just read a quick text here.

Let me see. I had my first baby when I was just 21, still at uni. I'd just gone on with it. I'd one pregnancy book and otherwise trusted my instinct. My fourth baby was born when I was 38. In 2003, when social media was growing and I felt some pressure to perform in an accepted way, for me, my happiest, most relaxed time as a mother was when I had baby

three at age 28. I knew myself and I still had energy. Why are we getting that text? Well, it's because figures from the Office for National Statistics show there are now twice as many women giving birth over the age of 40 as there are having kids under the age of 20. So the average age now for a woman giving birth has increased to 30.9 years. It's actually the highest since records began in 1938. So does the age you become a mother change the way you experience parenting?

Does it impact your kids? I have two women who had kids at very different points in their lives. We have Lucy Baker, the founder of the blog Geriatric Mum, who's here with us in studio. Good morning. Good morning. And Lauren Crosby, a medley cot, who's a freelance journalist who has written about her experience as a young mum. Hello. Good morning. Good to have you as well. Well, shall we start with you, Lucy? When did you have your kids? So I've got three children. My first was born when I was 34. My second, I was 37. And my third baby was born when I was 43.

Yeah, I was pregnant at 42, had him when I was 43. And when you were telling people about that final pregnancy, tell me a little bit how people reacted. It was very interesting. I mean, I was over the moon to be pregnant again over the age of 40. Really, really happy. But people around me had a different view in some cases. I was told I was going to be extra tired. One mum exclaimed that I was going to be the oldest mum at the school gates and I was going to be 47 when the baby started school. Everyone's saying, oh, weren't you done with nappies? We thought you'd had enough because there's a bit of a gap between my two girls and my third baby. So, yeah. And also

when I found out I was pregnant at 42, I went online like lots of women do, you know, you kind of Google stuff and the word risk came flying back at my eyes. So I, you know, I was, I was, there was a bit of negativity online, there was a bit of negativity in the school playground. And also, I faced a bit of negativity from the medics as well. Did you, did your partner experience any of that? No, of course not. He's a bit younger than me, actually. So Dan, my husband is younger than me. So yeah, he didn't experience any of that because he was under 40 actually when our third baby was born. But yeah, no, it was just me, female only. Well, not just you though, because I'm seeing another from Shropshire Lassie says,

I had my second baby at 40. I constantly had to deal with people saying to me, oh, you'll feel it now at your age. Maisie says, I had my son later in life and was treated very much like an older mum by medical staff. The term geriatric mother was most off-putting. However, as soon as I became a single mother as well, the situation could be seen as difficult. It was not. I was financially more secure than many younger women

to the point where I was able to privately educate my son as well as being in a privileged position to work but also have time to be with him. You have a bee in your bonnet about that term geriatric. Yeah so I use it on my blog and my social media because it stands out for one I don't use it because I like the term at all. I do think it conjures up this view of women being decrepit and ancient and actually in, in this country, women over the age of 35 are being called geriatric mum, or geriatric mother. And I did a poll actually on my Instagram just last week, over the weekend, actually. And 55% of women came back saying they were actually called a geriatric mum. So it's still being used.

Let's turn to somebody who I don't think ever experienced that term. That's Lauren. You're welcome. Tell us a little bit about your family. Hello. So I had my first at 25 and I've got three little boys. So my first at 25, then again at 27 and then my final one at 30. So that's our family makeup. And what about that?

So you had the three quite young. Did people, I don't know, expect that? Or was it in any way considered surprising? I think because of where we live, we live in a place in the Welsh Valleys. And it's not, I wouldn't say it's necessarily uncommon to have children younger. I think when I started to see a little bit of not judgment, I wouldn't say it was a harsh judgment. I would say it was a bit of surprise was things like I would have all three boys and I would be at the shops with, you know, one like sitting in the trolley, one maybe right beside me, just three kids all very loud checking out at the supermarket or something. And people would be like, oh, all of those yours? You look a bit young to have all those children.

How old are you? I would say that's probably when I felt, oh, I am. I guess I'm a bit young to have these three little kids running about me. So I wouldn't say judgment, just surprise more than anything. And how about your life then, Lauren, as well? What do you think that meant to become a mother and devote yourself at that point in your life to your children? Yeah, I always wanted to be a mum. And I would say in my, I mean, I had a lot of big life changes in my early 20s.

I moved to the UK from the States. I wasn't really sure about what I wanted to do in terms of career. I didn't have this massive career path. So I guess at the time, I didn't feel like I was making a sacrifice having children young. There wasn't something I felt like I was laying down to have kids. I feel like now, so I'm 34 now, and I've just in the last two years started doing journalism. And I feel like I'm just heaps behind people. I feel like I'm trying to catch up with people who've been in the industry for a long time. And I find that difficult. But on the other hand, I wouldn't have been doing freelance journalism in my early 20s and didn't necessarily put it on hold to have kids, if that makes sense. Yes, yes. And were your friends having kids at the same time?

There were some. There were some having kids. I would say a lot of my friends that do have careers that are working, they are starting to have babies now. So I think it's a big mix. It's a big mix. There were some that were having babies the same time I was having babies. And there's some that are only just now having babies. So a bit of a mix. Yeah, totally different. What about for you then, Lucy? How do you think it impacted your life at the time that you had children? So I'd already obviously got my 20s out of the way because I had my third baby at 30, my first baby at 34. So I'd kind of got the partying out the way and the kind of fun years,

I guess. So I was almost ready to have children at 34, I think, but I just didn't stop. You know, I kind of carried on until I was 43. I guess it impacted my life a little bit in that I sort of jumped in and out of jobs a little bit but I ended up going self-employed and I'm still self-employed to this day because I felt that that was the way to kind of run my my career around my children it meant that I could kind of dip in and out my career but one of the reasons that you know women are having babies has been cited as typically because people are trying to pursue their careers. You know, they're putting babies on hold so that they can get careers sorted. But I don't think it always is that reason. It's one of the first go-to reasons.

You know, everyone's saying, oh, women are just so career-focused now. They're forgetting to have children. I've met so many women over the years um since i had my little boy and some of the reasons are not career reasons you know a partner they might have been through a bereavement um there's loads of different reasons why women are having babies later so it's not just uh down to people's careers i think our text number is 84844 i just want to read some of the stories that people are sharing with us this morning.

In 1972 I was 18 and I had my first child. I was not unusual and generally the only women who were pregnant over 30 tended to be having subsequent children. Most women were married before their mid-20s so there was plenty of peer support. I wouldn't change it as physiologically

it was the optimum time to have babies with fewer complications and the energy to meet demands. I went on to have a successful professional career as did both my children. Here's another one. My mum was 43 when I was born. She's been a great parent but I'm now in my 20s and she's nearing 70 and starting to suffer from health problems.

I worry that she won't be around for some of the milestones that parents usually help their children through, particularly having my own children. In general, unless we're very lucky, I won't be able to share as much of my life with my parents as others get to. I understand the appeal of having children later in life, but I don't know how much thought is given to how it'll affect the kids' lives later on. Can I throw that one to you, Lucy?

Oh, that's an interesting one because I was obviously 43, so the same age as that person who's written in. I mean, I take every day as it comes. Of course, I'm fitter and healthier now in my 40s than I was in my 20s and 30s. I'm trying to look after myself a bit more. It has popped into my head that I'm going to be 63 when my boy is 20. But do you know what? My parents are 80 and they're traveling in Thailand and Australia as we speak

so maybe I've got energy from my parents you know I've always had quite a quite a high level of energy anyway so I think that maybe I'm blessed genetically and it hasn't really it hasn't stopped me doing anything and it certainly didn't have stopped me having a baby in my in my 40s because of the fact I'd be an older you know older when they're doing university or something like that. It has, I think, definitely connected with our audience this morning. Just as I read more, here's Jan saying, I was the only child of older parents. I was embarrassed as all my friends had young, energetic parents. So says Jan. Ciarán says, I had my first in the UK

at the age of 37 and was made to feel very old in antenatal classes. Second baby in Italy where I was 43 and I remember seeing an obstetrician for the first time and explaining I was a bit older. Her reaction was, you're not old. Apparently Italy has the highest proportion of first time mums over 40 in Europe. I was made to feel

younger and more accepted than I had been six years before in the UK. But what about the kids actually in our last few minutes? I'll throw to you first, Lauren, are you much younger? You know, we'd say, were you much younger than the other moms? Let's talk about off their friends and stuff, because I suppose that will be a community that parents will form. Yeah. So do you mean that in the communities that I've been in, are they similar age kids? Well, even similar age parents.

So say, you know, they're the parents of your kids' friends. Yeah, I would say that we're all about the same age. Yeah. And yeah, we are about the same age. There's some that are older, some that are younger. Again, I think it has to do with the fact of where we live and that we're not in cities. And so because we're not in a city,

there just tends to be, there's a lot of kids and we all do tend to be like in our 20s, 30s. Yeah. So let me throw that back over to you, Lucy. Is that an issue for you at all? Do you feel that people are a lot younger, the parents of your kids? No, I think, I mean, I mix with people that I like. I don't think about their age, genuinely.

So my friends, my school mum friends are all a complete mix. You know, some are 25, some are, I don't know if any are as old as me, actually. I'm probably the oldest. And interesting, my son is going to start school this September and I'm going to be 47 and it makes me think back to that comment that the school mum made when I was pregnant and they said you're going to be 47 when the baby starts school and now I'm like do you know what brilliant I'm so pleased that I've met you know this milestone has happened in my life. Can I throw a few more comments coming in?

Thanks to everybody getting in touch. You can't win as a woman. I had a baby at 17, was given a hard time for being too young. Had another at 27, was judged for taking time out of my career. Talked about having another at 37 and now I'm too old. I'm almost 65, says Dr. Liz. And my three were born at 37, 40 and 42. During the last pregnancy, Madonna and Sherie Blair were both expecting at the same time

and our babies were born within a few days of each other. I felt I was in good company. Any advice you would have, Lucy, about people who are thinking about having children older? Talk to your midwife, talk to your midwife about any concerns if you are pregnant. And also don't listen to the term geriatric mum if you are older park that for five you know park that term uh permanently and think about being you know what a blessing it is to have a baby in your 40s and let me turn to you lauren somebody who's young and thinking oh is this the right time i want to have them now but i'm worried about careers i would say you can you can do one or the other you could do both at the same time I

would just figure out what's best for you if you if you want to if you want to have kids have them if you want to wait wait. Is there ever a perfect time? No. Okay so that is the one thing I think everybody's agreeing on that there is no perfect time but have them if you want them really lovely to have both of you in. We had Lucy Baker and she is the founder of the blog Geriatric Mum, tongue firmly in cheek. And Lauren Crosby Medlicott who's a freelance journalist

who's getting into the thick of it after having her three young kids. Thanks so much for listening to Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. One, two, one, that's Hour. Join us again next time. wants us to dig it up. You know what you should have to do? Put a ticker digger and dig it up. We're Dan Ashby and Lucy Taylor, and from BBC Radio 4, this is Buried,

the story of the secret dumping of a million tonnes of waste near a UK city. We're sitting on a ticking time bomb. All I kept saying to you was, there's cover-ups, there's cover-ups. Subscribe now to Buried on BBC Sounds. pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.