Woman's Hour - The case against Bill Cosby, Live music from Chloe Matharu, The world of incels, Texas abortion law

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

A judge in Texas has ruled that women who experience pregnancy complications are temporarily exempt from the state's abortion bans. The ruling comes after a group of thirteen women and two doctors sued the state of Texas in March of this year, calling for a clarification of the law. However, the injunction is only temporary until the lawsuit is decided - and the state of Texas has appealed the ruling. Dr Emma Long, Associate Professor in American History and Politics at the University of East Anglia, joins Clare McDonnell to explain the significance of the ruling.Author and researcher Dr Julia Ebner has spent the last two years immersed in one of the darkest corners of the internet, the world of incels. She has been pretending to be an unhappily single, unemployed, male in his late 20s who is tired of feminism. This is part of her decade-long work going undercover investigating different extremist movements and how they pose a risk to democracy. Her new book, Going Mainstream, looks at the rapid spread of extremism into our mainstream social and political discourse. Chloe Matharu is an award-winning, singer songwriter and harpist. She has cultural roots in Scotland, Wales and the Punjab, and draws inspiration from her time in the Merchant Navy and the natural world as experienced at sea. Her debut album, Small Voyages, was selected for Celtic Music Radio’s Album of the Year. At Celtic Connections she was awarded the revered Danny in February this year. She joins the programme live in the studio to talk about her music and to perform The Silkie of Sule Skerry.More than 60 women have made allegations of rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment against the US comedian and actor Bill Cosby. But only one woman, Andrea Constand, was able to gain a criminal conviction. In 2018, he was sent to prison for three to 10 years on three counts of aggravated indecent assault. At the time it was celebrated as a major win for the #MeToo movement. Less than three years later, he was freed when the Pennsylvania Supreme Court overturned his conviction on a legal technicality. In a new two-part documentary exclusively for ITVX from 10 August, The Case Against Cosby, Andrea tells her story.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Kirsty Starkey00:00 Opener 02:50 Texas abortion 13:16 Julia Ebner 29:58 Chloe Matharu 38:52 Andrea Constand

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Claire MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Today, are we witnessing a major breakthrough in the campaign to re-establish abortion rights in the US? Well, last week a judge in Texas ruled there wasn't enough clarity in the law for women with serious pregnancy complications. The state has now appealed that ruling, but could this signify the beginning of a woman's right to abortion being re-established? Also on today's programme, we'll hear from Dr Julie Ebner, an author and researcher who has spent the last two years clandestinely observing the world of incels. They are involuntary celibates on the internet.

Now, these are men with extreme views who feel disenfranchised from society. They often go on to commit violence against themselves and others. But the question she's asking in her new book is, are those once extremist views now taking hold in the mainstream? She'll join us live. Andrea Costand has been called the Joan of Arc of the Me Too movement, the woman who took Bill Cosby to court on a sexual assault allegation and won. Now, he was jailed but then freed after a court overturned his conviction on illegal technicality.

Andrea and other women involved in the case are telling their stories in a new two-part documentary for ITVX. Andrea Constand will join us live. And fabulous live music from Chloe Massarou, who went from captaining boats in the Merchant Navy to being an award-winning singer, songwriter and harper. She's going to join me live in the Women's Hour studio. And also this is where you get involved today after Lioness Rachel Daly was seen kissing a wristband with her late father's name on it after her successful penalty in the team's win against Nigeria yesterday. That was a tribute you may remember that was started when coach Serena Vigman paid

homage to her late sister in the Euros last year in the very same way. I would love to know how you share your moments of triumph with someone you've lost. Is it a wristband? Is it a few chosen words? Is it a visit to an important spot? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Texts are going to be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us

through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note. The number you need is this 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi

if you can, and terms and conditions can be found on our website. So let's start then with this judge in Texas who has ruled that women who experience pregnancy complications are temporarily exempt from the state's abortion bans. Now the ruling comes after a group of 13 women and two doctors sued the state of Texas in March of this year, calling for a clarification of the law. However, the injunction is only temporary until the lawsuit is decided, and the state of Texas has now appealed the ruling within hours, which effectively puts that ruling on hold.

Let's talk this through with Dr Emma Long, an associate professor in American history and politics at the University of East Anglia. Welcome, Tormund Sauer. Good morning. Let's go back to the beginning, how this lawsuit came about. Fill us in. So it started actually way before last summer

when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and handed decisions about abortion back to the states. Texas had been one of those states with a conservative majority that wanted to challenge Roe v. Wade. So they introduced two laws, one which banned abortion after 15 weeks and another later one which banned abortion after six weeks. Of course when the Supreme Court last summer in Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health overturned Roe v Wade, that six-week law was on was there and ready to go into effect. So what happened last June was that that law almost immediately came into effect. The impact is that since most pregnant

people don't know they're pregnant before six weeks, was to in effect outlaw almost all abortions in Texas. So you find women having to travel if they can to other states to access abortion care. In the case of these particular women who either had to do that or couldn't do that, they brought this lawsuit to challenge this law on the grounds that, as you said in the beginning that the wording simply is not clear enough as to when doctors may use their discretion um to conduct uh or yeah to conduct abortions after six weeks so that's how we get to where we are now so it comes down to the phrase pregnancy complications and how that is defined um and i guess that could be defined in many, many ways. So what are they asking? What change are they asking for? So the problem is that it's twofold, really. One is that that language isn't clear. And as you say,

different people can interpret it in different ways. The other thing is the way in which the law in Texas is enforced. So it's not enforced by the state. They gave the option to any individual who feels like they have been harmed by a practice to bring a lawsuit. So that could be a relative. It could be somebody who works in a hospital. It could be a taxi driver who drove a woman to the clinic who thought that this would be a problem. And of course, the argument that the doctors and these women made was that this is a medical decision. When a doctor decides that an abortion is necessary to save the health of the woman or that a pregnancy isn't viable, it's a medical decision that many without medical training are not going to understand. So the fear is that doctors would make legitimate medical decisions that wouldn't be understood by those outside of that situation and they would get sued anyway.

And the women involved in this case themselves have simply said we were denied legitimate care that would have been legal under the law we were either put at risk of our help was put at risk our lives were put at risk or we had to go to significant expense to to travel outside of state to find this care all because the wording of this law is not clear and to be clear what's happening at the moment then is if you are in one of these situations and um potentially um your life could be at risk or the life of your unborn child then you have to go out of state to find a solution yeah pretty much as things currently stand and this is their argument that that that that that's a violation of their basic rights to health care. You know, the Texas law does include exceptions to save the life and the health of the mother.

But because the wording is not clear, they are not getting that service. So one of the women involved in this case, she developed sepsis and it was entirely predictable. The doctors told her because of the circumstance that it was highly likely that she would develop sepsis, which of course is life threatening, but that they couldn't do anything until she developed sepsis. So you've got that example of somebody who then wasn't able to travel, another woman who were able to travel, are put through, you know, a very difficult circumstance in already difficult circumstances when perhaps they've been told

that the child that they're carrying simply won't survive. So you add on to the, you know, the difficulty of being told that, but you then have to make arrangements to travel outside of the state because the doctors who are treating you just aren't sure that the the exact situation you find yourself in is going to be covered by the law so it affects women obviously and it affects doctors as as well to cover them um uh there were doctors two were involved in this lawsuit weren't they? So they must be breathing some kind of sigh of relief today. I think so. I mean, yes and no. Yes, because I think the ruling from the judge in Texas recognises that this is a problem and that's important in and of itself. The state had argued

that the law was perfectly clear and if doctors weren't clear, that was their own fault. Whereas doctors are saying, look, we're seeing these patients on a daily basis and we can't law was perfectly clear and if doctors weren't clear that was their own fault um whereas doctors are saying look we're seeing these patients on a daily basis and we can't so i think from that point of view it's it's a really important ruling on a practical level at the moment of course as you pointed out this hasn't been able to go into effect because the minute the state appealed, that ruling is put on hold and they now have to wait for the Texas Supreme Court to decide whether the law is or is not clear. So at a practical level, it's not necessarily changing anything, but the ruling itself, even if it's not in effect, is really important because what it's saying is you've got somebody

in authority who's heard all the evidence, who's knowledgeable about this in the legal context, saying the state is wrong. The state, the law is not clear on this. And actually, doctors and people who are pregnant need clearer guidelines than they're being provided at the moment. We're already seeing the pushback. The Texas Attorney General's office has argued that the exceptions being pushed by the plaintiffs would effectively allow ways of bypassing the ban. And I quote, it would, for example, permit abortions for pregnant females with medical conditions ranging from a headache to feelings of depression.

That is what they are saying. So how far can you litigate this in detail? Well, you can litigate it. I think what comments like that indicate is that these laws, regardless of the language in which they were passed, were really intended to outlaw abortion. These laws in Texas and in other states across the US that have these strict laws,

the motive is to outlaw abortion, but they didn't necessarily want to come out and say, we are just banning it outright. So they put these very strict conditions and time limits on it, which all but bans it completely. But the problem is, if you've got exceptions in there, you have got exceptions in there. What this case has effectively said is, you can't say that there are these exceptions and then not allow those exceptions to take place. The response to that, you know,

well, if we give discretion to women and doctors, then they'll use it for any reason, is the argument that was made when Roe versus Wade was in place and in the years in between, which was abortion is too easy to access, it's abortion on demand. So we're seeing the same debates just taking place in a slightly different context. This, of course, is one loose lawsuit in one state. What is the picture like across the US right now? Are we seeing similar cases, legal cases, a year on from the overturning of Roe v. Wade? What's the overall picture? There are cases. I mean, almost half of states now have some some kind of abortion restriction that is stricter than it was under Roe versus Wade. And there are lawsuits in various states. They take their expensive. They take a long time to bring to court. So partly why we've not heard so much about those as yet. But organisations and women and pregnant people are not sort of just sitting

back and accepting it. They're trying to find ways to challenge it. So yes, we're going to see these kinds of cases. And it's one of the reasons why this Texas ruling is important, because what it does is it establishes an example of somebody in a conservative state saying these are the terms you established you have to live up to them in reality not just in name and while legally that doesn't have any impact in any of the other states I think it's important as a first instance to show that actually some people are thinking that way. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Dr Emma Long there, Associate Professor in American History and Politics at the University of East Anglia. If you have a view on that, we would love to hear it. You can text the programme

on 84844. Now, author and researcher Dr Julia Ebner has spent the last two years immersed in one of the darkest corners of the internet, the world of incels. She has been pretending to be an unhappy, single, unemployed male in his late 20s who is tired of feminism. Now this is part of her work going undercover, investigating different extremist movements and how they pose a risk to democracy. Her new book is called Going Mainstream, and it looks at the rapid spread of extremism into our mainstream social and political discourse. I'm delighted to say Julia joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Hello. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on. Let's go back to what got you into this very dark area of research. It was a very personal experience, wasn't it?

It was. It was in many ways. I started first studying extremism, terrorism and radicalisation when ISIS was just at the height of their power and recruiting foreign fighters, but also launching attacks across Europe, of course, also in the UK. And I actually had some friends who were caught up in the area of Bataclan when the attack happened in Paris. So that really led to me being even more motivated on a personal level to pursue these investigations and this kind of research to stop terrorist attacks from happening. And you were interested in Bataclan because it was the first time so-called Islamic State had actually, well, recruited from mainland Europe. Exactly. I was initially looking mainly at European foreign fighters and in general at jihadism, terrorism occurring based on kind of Islamist extremist radicalization. But I then also soon started to realize that

the far right was really benefiting from some of these attacks as well, because they could recruit more people because there was this backlash where more and more people were developing resentments against Muslim communities in general, I would say against minority communities and migrants. So the far right also saw a surge in their recruitment and in their mobilisation back then. And that led me to also to look at the far right extremist side of the spectrum. So one fed the other.

And then you thought, I'm going to go in deep, I'm going to try and understand what motivates these people. So talk us through how you immerse yourselves in these groups. You have an avatar, essentially, don't you? Exactly. I do have many avatars to go undercover with different types of extremist movements. So I've been doing undercover investigations with Islamist extremists, including ISIS hacking groups and ISIS jihadi bride groups,

but also with neo-Nazi groups and white nationalist groups, with QAnon groups, as well as misogynist groups. And for this latest book, I've been doing this kind of research for seven years now, sometimes going undercover online, but sometimes also taking these investigations to the real world and meeting in offline settings. But for this latest book, I also developed an avatar that was male under the pseudonym of Alex Williamson. a lonely man who was getting radicalized into the incel, into the violent misogynist incel community, because I wanted to understand better what is driving people inside these deeply misogynistic subcultures that we can find on the internet. You witnessed some pretty dark and disturbing conversations, didn't you, when you adopted this persona? Can you talk us through some of them? I would say the incel community was one of the scariest places for me, personally. I've done

many undercover investigations in different extremist groups, but incels was very special in the sense that, of course, for me as a woman, it all felt very personal quite quickly because the threat here is against women and women are seen as the main enemy. So if you enter this very toxic world, you will soon see fantasies of raping women, of even carrying out terrorist attacks. There are even sometimes attacks being plotted on these platforms. Whenever I spotted something like that, I of course, forwarded it to the responsible authorities or security services. But it's a very toxic world. And there is almost a sense that the community is split into some people, some incels would lean more towards self-loathing and towards hatred of themselves that can then mean that they might resort to suicide.

They definitely share a lot of suicide fantasies. And other parts are more leaning towards hatred against a demonized outgroup, in many cases women, but also good-looking men, for example, who are seen as the enemy. And that has in the past also inspired terrorist attacks, as we saw in the UK with the Plymouth attack not so long ago, but also in Canada, the Toronto van attack of 2018. In the US, there have not made it to the headlines, but that might have also been inspired by at least dimensions of this incel thinking or these misogynistic ideologies. So you're in this world as a woman, but projecting as a man, this man you've described. And there's a figure here from the Centre of Countering Digital Hate

that in these incel groups, on average, someone shares a rape fantasy every 29 minutes. How difficult was it for you to sit there and listen to that? It was immensely difficult, especially because a lot of these really deeply misogynistic and even violent posts are coming from minors or from very young people who get caught up in this radicalization spiral. And so very often I felt the need to feed into that, into those suicide fantasies by sharing manuals of how to rope yourself or how to drown yourself. It was really quite a terrible,

yeah, just a terrible group dynamic that developed there. And the same was true when rape fantasies or even death threats were being shared. It was often the case that incels were motivating each other to more and more aggressive language and more and more concrete plans to take action in the real world. How do you balance that? You say, obviously, if you get wind of a potential attack, then you would flag that to the authorities. And yet everything else you've described is pretty violent

or is goading others to violence. I mean, you balance you know not wanting harm to come to other people with clearly obviously your mission which is to gather evidence to put it to good use further down the line i mean it must be very different you must feel very torn sometimes i i did feel very torn many many times in general being undercover with extremist groups just means that sometimes it's not possible to intervene because otherwise they would uncover the identity, of course, the real identity, or the undercover identity would be blown and that that is sometimes also hard whenever for example sexist or racist jokes are being made also in real world offline settings when i met extremists i sometimes had to laugh at these jokes and those are among the most difficult moments because you have to stay in character but there were definitely a few instances where i i tried to. And in the past, that also sometimes led to my avatar being uncovered or to me being kicked out of a community, of an online community.

That must be quite scary. And we'll get on to, you know, what you think we as a society need to do, because your book's title, Going Mainstream, suggests that you don't feel it's on the fringes anymore. A lot of that ideology is kind of around us all the time. But how difficult is it for you personally? Because you must feel under threat, surely. I've started to accept that this comes with just this profession with looking at terrorism and radicalisation dynamics. I've had many threats and hate campaigns targeted at myself,

also at my colleagues in the past, and usually they come and go in waves. And I think it's something that not just researchers in this type of field are experiencing, but of course also local politicians, activists, journalists are more and more exposed to these types of hate campaigns, where it's almost impossible to speak out loud about controversial topics or to raise awareness about extremism and radicalization because you might become a target of these campaigns. And there were moments when I faced severe death threats and rape threats, and I was considering just completely exiting the space and not continuing this kind of work anymore. But that's ultimately the goal of these extremist movements. It is to

silence any kind of opposition and any kind of work that might hinder them from their own missions. So I think it's necessary to not be silenced by these intimidation campaigns. What's going mainstream then? Are you talking about people like Andrew Tate, for example, you know, a lot of young men these days, this is a man who is held up as someone to admire, whose philosophy on life as a young man is studied. I mean, is this the kind of thing you're talking about? Andrew Tate is definitely a good example because he has mainstreamed some of the very fringe, sometimes even violent, misogynistic ideas and ideologies

and even conspiracy myths that would also be shared in the incel community or in the wider online misogynistic mosaic of what's called the manosphere that's not just made up of incels but also of other misogynistic communities for example the pickup community which is basically men who are trying to manipulate women into having sex with them and rotate of course has accumulated millions of followers and views on his TikTok videos and many of them are among the youngest generations and we also do observe that there is um in even in school classrooms in the UK also in Germany more kids especially teenage boys are sharing uh rape glorification ideas or rape denial ideas and and might also see Andrew Tate as their role model.

And equally, we can see in studies that some of the language, some of the symbols that come from very extreme fringe corners of the internet, such as incels, that some of this specific vocabulary has leaked into public discourse and now has been normalized and is being used by wider parts of the population and of internet users. Examples are the Sigma male meme, but also words like feminazis, for example, where we see that some of these words are being taken out of these fringe communities and do inspire a much wider, of course, lower level, but still a lower level misogyny that can then be quite dangerous on a societal and on a political level. So the book flags all of this brilliantly and brings it

out in the open for us all to discuss it. I know you're developing a formula for different psychological factors that always come together when people turn to violence and translate words into action. So briefly, if you could tell us a little bit about that and also what everyone can do

to kind of stem this tide. Yeah, this formula that I developed was part of my PhD research at Oxford University where I studied patterns in the terrorist manifestos that were published shortly before attacks happened in the last 10 years. And I did find that there was a very clear pattern of recurring factors, psychological factors that could be found in the language of terrorist perpetrators in their manifestos. So one of the key elements here is identity fusion, which is when the personal identity becomes one, becomes equivalent with the group identity. Having said that, actually, the INSO community is a slight exception to this phenomenon. But in many of the other extremist communities, that is a clear sign that people might be more prone to violence,

especially when this phenomenon of identity fusion occurs together with other factors, like a perceived existential threat from an outgroup or the dehumanization of this outgroup. And, of course, also violence condoning norms. But I've been trying to develop this formula so that, for example, the security services and the intelligence community have an easier job in allocating resources towards those investigations that really are the most credible in terms of the level of threat of real world violence. Because right now there are so many threats online and so many announcements of violence or fantasies of violence

that it's really hard for the intelligence community to sort through them and to prioritise which ones do they investigate further, which ones can they just leave aside. Well, it's really important research and we thank you so much for bringing it to us we could talk for the next half hour and all of this it's utterly fascinating and it affects all of our lives dr julia ebner thank you so much for joining us on woman's hour and her new book is going mainstream it is uh out now joan's been in touch thank you for this joan hatred of women pervasive. How we raise our boys has to change. Julia has very important points on that as well. And I was asking you earlier, Rachel Daly, one of the lionesses,

kissed a wristband after she put that penalty away yesterday at the Women's World Cup against Nigeria. How do you mark the moments of celebration in your life? How do you share that with a loved one? You have lost this texter. I had a wooden bench placed in dad's local gardens and shared this fact with his friends and our family. For the next 10 years, people can see the plaque Sid and remember him.

Thank you so much for that. Thank you, whoever you are. And Kate says, our dad died 10 years ago from complications after a stem cell transplant for lymphoma and whilst he has always been with us remembering him excuse me has always been very personal for my sister Anna and I this year we both felt ready to do something and more public to mark that milestone and took part in the London triathlon for the first time on Sunday to raise money for Blood Cancer UK and help other families have better outcomes.

I felt Dad was with me all the way round and was elated to finish the competition in his honour, especially as we doubled our target to raise £3,000. The donor page is still open, still buzzing from it. This would have been a voice note, but I don't think I could have got through it. It's been emotional. Kate, thank you so much for texting us.

Please do text the programme. You still have time. 84844. How, in those moments of triumph in your life, you bring a dearly departed loved one with you. We would love to hear from you here on Woman's Hour this morning. Now, to Listener's Week,

which begins on the 21st of August. Is there a science or tech-related topic you would like us to cover? Maybe it's about AI, robotics or space travel. Or maybe you'd like to nominate a woman in STEM who is doing interesting research and revolutionising the way women eat, work or sleep. You can get in touch. Again, you can text WOMENSOUT on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can check with your network provider for exact costs on social media. It's at BBC WomansOut or you can email us through our website. Do get in touch on that. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, delighted to say, Chloe Matharu is an award-winning singer-songwriter and harpist.

She has cultural roots in Scotland and Wales and the Punjab and draws inspiration from her time spent as a navigational officer in the Merchant Navy and the natural world as experienced at sea. She's got a debut album out. It's called Small Voyages, and it was selected for Celtic Music Radio's Album of the Year at Celtic Connection. She was awarded the revered Danny in February of this year and I'm delighted to say she joins me in the studio now along with her harp. Chloe, hello. Hi there, it's lovely to be here. It's fun and that is a beautiful instrument. I saw you struggling out of the lift with it earlier and I admired you for that because it must be quite something taking that with you everywhere. This is believe it or not my travel instrument so I actually have a larger instrument but I didn't think I'd fit it on the train so. I love that it has come in travel size like cosmetics absolutely brilliant. You've

had such an interesting life haven't you here you are an accomplished musician now with a debut album out but you started off in the Merchant Navy. How on earth did that happen? So from about the age of eight, I became fascinated with oil tankers. And it was something that just stayed with me. And I think it was probably sounds quite nerdy, but it was really the colours of the tankers that really caught my imagination, the red and the blue and the white. And I just kept wondering what life at sea would be like. And so I looked into it after leaving school. I did music for a wee while, but I actually decided that I wanted to still experience what life was like at sea.

And no one from my family had been to sea. So it seemed like a very exciting thing to do. And so I applied for a cadetship and I got a sponsorship with local Fisher, James Fisher Tankers. That was a UK based oil tanker company. And so I spent my time on oil tankers before finishing and qualifying. And I moved on to cruise ships, then ferries and tugboats. And when you say moved on, were you sailing these things? Were you in charge? Yeah. So how it works is that the navigational officer, there's a team of deck officers that drive the ship. And so we all do watches. And so at any time of the, when you're a qualified officer,

you are actually driving that vessel. So yeah, navigating around the world on my ships. What was the percentage of women to men? It really depended on which ship you're on. But in the intake to Nautical College, navigating uh around the world on my ships what was the percentage of women to men uh it really depend on depended on which ship you're on but in the intake to nautical college i was one in 80 men that was uh that actually was taken up into fleetwood nautical college uh and that was quite interesting because i did think that there would be a few more females and but to be honest it was an amazing experience i would really highly recommend a career at sea to anyone. Because you were at St Andrews University weren't you initially

and decided this isn't for me tell us why. So actually it's interesting that this conversation about incels and some of the language they used is mentioned because something that drove me away from St Andrews was this community of vocal men that would say things like they were very entertained by the idea of rape and that would often come up on night sight and I just felt like I was exposed to that a lot just through the community of young men there and I got sick of it and I remember one time being in a pub in St Andrews and we tried to go in as a group of females and actually there was a group of young men in red cloaks and they booed us out of the pub and that was just indicative of what it was like in the social life at St Andrews and I just thought it really wasn't for me so I ended up

deciding to apply for the Merchant Navy and going to do something that was professional from the start. And the difference then between the male experience you had at St Andrews to the male experience you had, predominantly male, in the Merchant Navy was what? Well, it's a professional environment. So when you apply to be in the Merchant Navy, from day one of your training, even though you're at Nautical College studying, you're actually being paid by a company. So if you step out of line, you'll essentially lose your job.

And from day one, it was made very clear that anyone who got in the way of other people's training would be kicked out of the college. And so I just felt there was a sense of discipline and that people kept their head down and focused on the work and really kept out of my way. So a lot more respectful of that environment. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, you've gone into this incredible world of folk music now. How did that begin? So I grew up in Edinburgh and I think there's just a really strong community of musicians in Scotland. And especially in Edinburgh, there's lots of live sessions.

I started going to the Youth Gathering Sessions, which is a youth initiative. And they've got amazing musicians that lead those. So I was under some classes with Corrine Polwart and Julie Foulis. So it was really inspiring for me to be exposed to that from a young age. And I got into singing Scottish a cappella music. And it wasn't until later on that, I mean, I learned the harp as a 10-year-old, but it wasn't until later on in recent years that I've put the voice and harp together. But I just think that the harp lends itself so well to these songs that I write.

And it's all about being at sea and I think the instruments somehow the flow of it and the the different sounds that you can get from the harp it somehow reflects the sea so well. Oh I can't wait to hear it um you're a mother now so you've come back shoreside and some of the tracks on your album are inspired by your family um your husband was in the royal navy um so that led to a song uh about a long distance relationship on the album didn't it yeah so i think my my aim through music is to lend a voice to the modern day seafarer and i think that years ago folk music it really reflects the male uh narrative about being at sea and the large crews and these days being a seafarer means that you have to be alone a lot of the time and it's it can be very lonely and you're away from loved ones so a lot of my music is about longing for loved ones and that song that you

mentioned Arctic Turns that was inspired by the beautiful bird of the Arctic Turn and I used to keep in touch with my husband who is on different vessels by essentially nature bird of the Arctic term. And I used to keep in touch with my husband, who was on different vessels, by essentially nature watching from the bridge of the ship and emailing him what I'd seen so that we would keep in touch. So we'd be in different places in the world and we'd get these emails about what wildlife we'd seen and it somehow kept us connected. And the Arctic term is special

because actually they keep one mate for life and they meet up with the same mate once a year in the same place and they do this magnificent dance up into the air. And that caught my imagination as a lovesick seafairy and I really wanted to write something that was reflective of me and my husband. So that's how that song came about. That's absolutely beautiful. Is that the one you're going to play for us now? No, so I've just released a single called The Silky of Sealskerry and I collaborated with an electronic engineer.

It's basically a Scott song and we've done an electronic soundscape to include seal song and field recordings of the sea. And that's out now. And I'll be also playing at Edinburgh Fringe, promoting that on the 18th and 19th of August. And that's the song that I'll be playing today. Okay. Well, listen, if you're ready, we're ready. Brilliant. Take it away. Take it away.

Oh, work, oh, work, I feel pretty made for a soul? You lie asleep and I'll tell two things. We are parents with a head. Absolutely breathtaking. Honestly, I wish we had an audience in here. I am sure the Woman's Hour audience were applauding all over the country. That was honestly absolutely incredible.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming in. Tell us where we can see you in Edinburgh. So that will be at the Acoustic Music Centre on the 18th and 19th of August and that's at seven o'clock. Okay Okay and the album? It's called Small Voyages and it's available on all streaming platforms as well as Bandcamp. Very well done. Chloe lovely to meet you. Thank you so much for bringing your travel harp in with you and for educating me that there were such things in the

world. Chloe Matharu there go and look her up. She really, obviously, as you just heard, is really worth a second visit. Thank you so much for coming in, Chloe. Now, let's move on to talk about a programme, a really important programme, a two-part documentary for ITVX. It's this. More than 60 women have made

allegations of rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment against the US comedian and actor Bill Cosby. But only one woman, Andrea Constand, was able to gain a criminal conviction. In 2018, he was sent to prison for three to ten years on three counts of aggravated indecent assault. Now, at the time, it was celebrated as a major win for the Me Too movement. Less than three years later, he was freed when the Pennsylvania Supreme Court overturned his conviction on illegal technicality. Well, this new two-part documentary for ITVX is called The Case Against Cosby. And Andrea tells her story. Delighted to say, Andrea joins us now. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you for having me. Good morning. Well, good afternoon. Probably where you are afternoon here. Why did you feel it was important to tell this story now, 20 years on from when it first began? Well, I thought it was important to tell the story, you know, to show the journey of survivors, obviously, and to highlight, you know, not only the authenticity, and to really kind of talk about the trauma, you know, which is what we what we really dive very deeply into, into this documentary, you you know trauma can be really uncomfortable and painful especially you know watching other people go through it although we don't often do that unless we're in a group setting or in a retreat or in group therapy but i thought it was important just to

kind of dive into into the truth of the story into the authenticity of the story, into the authenticity of the story, and to actually shine a light on the survivors. Because in so many instances, when predators and abusers are powerful, wealthy, famous people, you know, often the limelight is on them. And I felt that in this story, it was important to work with the director to really show the damage and the collateral damage that is often done with sexual assault survivors, not only for them, for their families, for their friends. And I think you get to see what it's like in the world of a survivor

in this documentary. And we're very proud of it. So you really do. It's traumatic, but at the same time, very uplifting. And if you don't mind, for people who don't know your story, just to go back to the beginning of this, you describe yourself as confident, outgoing, 29 to 30 year old, working at Temple University in Philadelphia. So tell us how your paths crossed with Bill Cosby back then. Yeah. So, you know, at the time, it was really the culmination of my dream job in the basketball world. And I played basketball as a youngster and went on to college and received a scholarship and so for me and then also played as well in Europe for a couple of years I kind of ended my

career in Italy playing professionally in the in the first league there and and so this was kind of a job that I kind of came back to and it was. And it was a dream job for me with a head coach that was actually an incredible head coach. And I happened to be at a basketball game. I had already been at Temple for just over a year. And I was at a basketball game. And that's how I crossed paths with Bill Cosby. I was introduced to him by another trustee at the university. And, you know, all under the guise of wanting to look at the new locker room that we had installed at the arena.

And it was all, all very innocent, you know, but but after 18 months of a friendship and a mentorship, obviously it wasn't innocent and it wasn't a friendship. It was very much 18 months of knowing him, of being groomed by him, only to culminate in an evening at his home where I was given a few blue pills and became unconscious. And, you know, like I say in the documentary, the Andrea that I was, like you say, confident, bright eyed, a free spirit, you know, I walked out of his house a completely different person. And just one night really changed me. And so, you know, that's become my journey. The past 20 years has really been a healing journey for me. And I think, you know, I think it was important to do this documentary to actually show what it's like for survivors to heal and what that looks like.

But for me, it's been a 20-year journey. And I look at the person who I am today, and I never thought that I could ever be the person that I am today back then. You buried this, though, didn't you, when you walked out of that house? But everybody around you noticed you walked out of that house but everybody around you noticed you changed quite significantly. Yes yes I did you know it's it's that humiliation and that shame you know and I think often those situations really disconnect us you know from from who we really are in our ability to speak out and, you know, and stay silenced. I think for me also, you know, as for many people, sometimes it's, you know, a relative, a person you work with, you know, a harassment in the workplace.

You know, the harassment and the assault can just, it can show up in any way charges filed in 2017 because there was a settlement and then you effectively sort of moved on with your life didn't you after this after this civil case and settlement so what exactly was it that that brought you out again to say, you know, this was the time to face him in court? Yeah, that's, I mean, it's a very good point. I went through all that, the civil stuff, which was really, you know, early on it was tough because I was going up against such a powerful person and then the criminal case of course which was very daunting really daunting process for me although I did look you know I was strong and I think I was strong enough to have been the person to go through that but I think ultimately you know it was my drive in my it was my drive for closure is really what kept me going. And I really felt

like it was very hard to watch all the other survivors come forward. You know, as they came forward, it was like back in the civil case, we knew that there were 13 Jane Does in my case, but my case never went to trial, but I knew there were other women. And so that for me was a bigger secret, although I had a secret for a whole year that I held inside of what he did to me. I came out of, you know, those that that civil, civil situation with an even bigger secret that he had done this to other people. And so I think knowing in 2000, you know, fast forward to 2017, when I started to hear in 2018, when I started to hear a lot of the other women's stories come forward, it was really emotional for me to watch and to see them all come forward, you know, and they were kind of paraded in front of the

media, you know, and often left in tears. And so it was, it was really emotional for me. And I think having seen that, having seen the impact and the hurt, you know, and, and, you know, what this man, who he truly was and what he, he led a life of. I mean, to everybody, he was America's dad at the time. You know, he was, you know, all over the world. I'm sure probably in the UK as well, there might be people that have seen his early shows like The Cosby Show or Fat Albert. But I wanted to show the truth of who he really was. And so for me, I had to sacrifice, you know, a lot of my life and a lot of many, almost four or five years going through those trials, you know, to kind of get that justice. It was what I so desired was to get justice, you know, to show the truth of who he was. And so that is really what drove me.

And, you know, I look back now and I'm like, you know, at photos of me, you know, coming out of the courtroom, et cetera, et cetera. And I, and I often say like, I don't know how I did it. It's, it's surreal that I actually got through what I got through. You're called in this documentary, the Joan of Arc of the Me Too movement because people are saying even though they didn't get their convictions, the fact that you did eventually get a conviction felt like that they were exonerated as well because Bill Cosby was sentenced to prison

for three to ten years in 2018. But as I mentioned earlier, less than three years later, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court overturned the verdict on a legal technicality. He has always maintained his innocence. So what impact did that Supreme Court decision have on you? He was a free man. Well, you know, it's really like for me, I think having when I was going through the trials, you know, my mantra, you years, I really realized that I didn't have much control over anything. And some people might have thought I had more control than I did, but I actually didn't. From the time that I committed to taking the journey and actually bringing him to justice, I didn't have control over court decisions, court motions. I just had to go with the flow. And a part of me was just like, don't have expectations, Andrea, because I didn't want to be set up to be let down.

And so part of what, part of that journey was having no expectations. When he was sentenced and handcuffed and taken off to jail. That was, that was a real big moment for me. And it was a big moment for all of us because we felt believed, we felt heard by the jury. We felt that, you know, when he, after he had served three years, you know, for me, I was just happy that he had served a minimum time. Although it was not anywhere I felt,

I felt that the true crime and the true breadth of all the predation he had committed deserved 10 years, believe me. But having seen him serve three years, it was OK with me. I was OK with everything. But what I was not OK with is the message that it would send to other survivors, you know, who might be coming forward, who might want to report to the police what their abusers have done to them, because they might think, you know what, well, look at Andrea's situation. She reported, yeah, he went to jail, but he only got the minimum term. He ended up coming out. So I didn't want that to serve as a message that, you know, don't bother coming forward because it's really not worth it. It is worth it. I can sit here today and say it's worth it. It's worth it for your healing. It's worth it, you know, to not stay in silence anymore because silence ultimately, it will make us sick. Our secrets will make us sick.

And so for me, I would say, get on with it, get on with the healing path, you know, get the support that you need, reach out. And hopefully to all those people that are listening out there, if somebody ever does tell you that something has happened to them just acknowledge them and believe them and ask them if they're okay that's that's you know that's important it's a hugely uplifting watch um it's traumatic but it's it's really worth a view for all of the reasons you've outlined. And I know, Andrea, you're now Director of Hope and Healing and Transformation, which supports sexual survivors.

So thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour today. Do give that two-part documentary a watch. It's on ITVX. It is the case against Cosby. Andrea Constand and other survivors tell their story. We do have to tell you, though, obviously, Bill Cosby maintains that all sexual encounters were consensual and he has maintained his innocence in Andrea's case.

The case against Cosby, as I said, will be available to stream on ITVX exclusively from Thursday, the 10th of August. That's almost it from Woman's Hour from today. Just to say earlier, our guest Chloe Matharu mentioned her experiences at St Andrews University. We have contacted them for a response, but understandably, we have not heard back yet. Thank you so much for all of your comments. You've got in touch with us,

how you mark the celebratory moments in your life with the passing of a loved one. My father died 12 years ago and taught me lots of DIY skills. Listening now, I'm doing some patching up, plastering in my kitchen. I've just put his initials in a discreet spot. What a lovely text. And last

month I was awarded an honorary doctorate, just like Anita Raleigh, one of my heroines. I wanted to dedicate this award to my grandmother and grandfather who were very important in my life and career trajectory. I wore my grandmother's wedding ring and outlined my grandfather's life in my acceptance speech. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, it's Amit Katwala. And Charlotte Stavrou here. We wanted to tell you that season two of speed. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I fell in love with that madly, the idea of just turning a plant into this giant analogue synthesiser. Running shoes. The beauty of it is you get a chance to understand performance at the highest level. And tea. It's the connection and the safety cues to your body that it's over and you're safe.

And much more. So join us for the second season of All Consuming, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.