Woman's Hour - The Closure of Schools, Ghosted by Mum, Naked Walkers

Episode Date: January 5, 2021

We're in another lockdown. Schools are shut like last time. Only children of key workers and those who are vulnerable can go in. Listeners have already been in touch expressing their concerns. We want to hear from you. Is it the right thing to do? Why has the messaging been so inconsistent. What impact will school closures have on working life, parents and children? How different is this from where we were in March? We want to hear from you.We’ve talked about ‘ghosting’ before on Woman’s Hour, usually in the context of relationships where a partner or prospective partner just suddenly disappears and cuts off all communication. Hannah, a listener, wrote to us to tell us her story of being ghosted by her own mother. She talks to Emma.Lockdown has been a perfect opportunity for people to get outside and explore the great outdoors. But would you consider doing it in the nude? Donna Price - a volunteer for British Naturism and head of the Women in Naturism campaign says that despite women's fears about body image and being leered at by men, walking and swimming naked with other people can be the most liberating, confidence-building and joyous of experiences. But what does it feel like crossing from being a clothes-clad member of society into being naked with strangers? Journalist Caroline Steel reflects on her own experience and the revelations she had about the way society views women's bodies.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. As England goes into a third national lockdown and tighter restrictions are put in place across the whole of the United Kingdom, I wanted to start by asking you this morning a simple sounding question, but really it's the only one. How are you? How are you doing today? How are you feeling? What are the conversations like in your house, your family, your friendship group at the moment? Let me know how you're doing today. Messages already come in hot off the box from Adrienne who says I'm lonely quite simply. Another from Richard saying in

honesty Emma I'm finding my normal levels of resilience a shot. Another says, I'm fed up and I'm angry at the ineptitude of this government to act responsibly in the face of this pandemic. Anger, lonely, not feeling like you're resilient. Some of you saying, how can it actually be getting worse? Tell us where you are with this, however it's affecting you. 84844, that's the number you need to text or on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or, of course, if you prefer email, get in touch on email through our website.

Also this morning, the only thing we're still really allowed to do in some ways is go for a nice walk. Why not do it naked? I'm not joking. Naked Rambling made headlines yesterday and we'll have a nude rambler for you to make the case, so don't miss that. But what a difference a day can make. On Sunday, the Prime Minister urged parents to send their children to schools in England, saying it was safe and the right thing to do. Only 24 hours later, in what's being described by some as the mother of all government U-turns, Boris Johnson announced schools in England are shut as we enter a third national lockdown.

Similar restrictions are in place in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Remote learning is on. Only children of key workers and those who are vulnerable can go in. And once again, parents are teaching children at home and the kids may be celebrating, as exams, as we know it, in England are also cancelled. Some parents can work from home, but others, of course, still have to go out and do their shifts in the workplace. You've already been in touch on this with your concerns.

As Becky puts it, I'm thinking a huge number of women will be impacted by the need to homeschool and that employers need to intervene and provide both men and women of school-aged children with additional parental leave and reflect this in their workload. Or, as another joke doing the rounds on the internet put it last night, you think it's bad now? In 20 years, the country's going to be run by kids that were homeschooled by alcoholics. Dark humour and stress in dark times. But let's start this morning by talking to one of the millions of parents

grappling with this reality again. Judith Ugwemadu from Essex is joining us on the line. She's busy. She's working from home. Her husband goes out to do his job and looking after three children at home, all under five. Judith, how are you today? Hello, I'm very well, thank you. How are you? Well, I feel like you've done that polite thing of saying, yes, I'm great. But actually, how are you? Because you've got a lot on and I can hear a bit of it in the background. Oh, you can. Yes. When he's calling me mummy, mummy now, I don't know what he wants.

But I mean, no, it's difficult. As I was saying to my husband this morning, I woke up and I was just thinking, what's going on? Are we going through this again? It's very, very difficult. I mean, I've just started a new job. I'm still trying to impress my bosses. And I have to homeschool my five-year-old. And it's difficult because I feel as though he is falling extremely behind. Who's the one shouting for you? I do feel awful that you're having to be with us for a minute.

Can you hear that? Yeah, that's the middle boy. He's three years old. And you're in a position where, as you say, you're a new job you're you are able to do that from home it's it's a writing role as I understand it yeah how are you going to do this this time around have you learned anything from last time do you feel um I think last time um the first lockdown actually had a newborn so um that in itself um was I mean I've learned from the first one because I was able to dedicate my time to teach the boy but now it's a bit difficult where I have the job so I'm a bit pulled back so I don't have that time that um luxury of actually sitting down with him so I mean for me all I can do right

now is just try and have a structure so um I actually have a timetable stuck on the table I mean on the um on the door as and before as and when we need to do things in the house just to kind of help with the flow of things but um I mean all I can I think these big charts and markers are coming into their own in some way I mean the other thing I just wanted to get your reaction to if I may is that Boris Johnson was on television on Sunday morning saying send your children to school, keeping them open that's our priority and obviously 24 hours later

we'll be talking to the chair of the Education Select Committee in just a moment but what was your view that 24 you know, 24 hours later, it was a completely different message? How does that make you feel in terms of how we're being looked after and managed at the moment? I feel angry. I feel angry. I feel as though we've been let down.

I'm already in a tier four area. So my son has been off school since December 7th. And the middle boy, he's been going to school however I don't feel and his school was still open he goes to preschool Montessori school but I don't feel um happy sending the middle boy to school and the older boy staying at home it's almost like I'm just throwing the other one into the wild I mean it's just a lot of conflicting information and it just makes me angry so for me the safest thing is just to keep the boys at home. The middle one at home, at least.

And that's the decision people are having to make if they've got more than one child at different stages. And you were starting to mention there that you feel that your eldest is also falling behind. That's another concern. Extremely, yeah. What's your husband saying about all of this this because he has to go out to do his role he has to go out and um obviously i think in terms of our responsibility in the home i it's like my i have the lion's share of responsibility in terms of looking after the children making sure that their education is is at a certain level so for me the burden

kind of falls on me and he kind of expects me to make sure that the children are attaining what they're supposed to be attaining if not more I mean he tries to help out where he can but I mean he works as well he has to leave the home for his job he comes home around six o'clock seven o'clock and then he's tired and then what time do we have left to to teach the five-year-old who is already tired, running around the house all day, his concentration span is not amazing. I mean, in some way, your roles are actually quite clearly defined. We got a message this morning from two police officers, a male and a female married, and they are actually both having to go out. So they're just having to work it shifts between them.

Is that difficult in your relationship, if you don't mind me asking? Because some people are finding it a real strain. Yeah, it is a strain. And I mean, we literally have to manage our battles at home and because the children are around all the time, we just have to kind of grit our teeth a lot of the time and just kind of get on with it. And I think the only consolation right now is that we know

that we're going to be in this situation until mid-February and then things will hopefully go back to normal. But in terms of our relationship, we're managing and we're just trying to do what's best for the children because ultimately that's our priority. Well, it's where a lot of people are feeling. I mean, you've mentioned a lot of emotions in there. One being anger and one just hoping for that February reprieve, perhaps. Many messages coming in. Judith, I'm going to let you get back because you have many things to do.

And we're very grateful you spent the time with us a few minutes there. And I hope it goes OK and perhaps we'll catch up again messages coming in on this uh emma this one says i'm feeling tired i'm feeling bored angry sad disappointed frustrated cold you know i feel that as well sorely lacking motivation and i'm trying to find the energy to keep our teams going and another message on this again around sadness and despond. I'm struggling to see light at the end of the tunnel. But John says, I'm feeling great. I'm 60 years old, never felt better. People need to get a grip.

Let's see what our next guest makes of that. Louise Nicholls is the executive head teacher of the LEAP Federation. That's made up of three primary schools in Hackney. Louise, how are you doing? You've got a lot to get a grip of. Yeah, good morning. Yes, it's been an absolute roller coaster for us in schools uh and i'm hearing all that about how it is affecting

parents and of course many of us are parents as well so we've got that to juggle but if you look at london schools for example we started on wednesday the 30th last week um where we're normally in embedded in our families and our holidays at that point. And Gavin Williamson announced that there was going to be partial closure of London schools, but inexplicably the various London boroughs were not

added to a list of schools that were going to close at that point. So we planned for being open. And we were all... You're talking there, I should say. I was just going to say, you're talking there about the education secretary, just to remind people. I am, yeah. And what was your reaction when you saw what had happened in those 24 hours between what the prime minister said on Sunday and then what he said last night?

Well, so what happened for us was that on Friday, which was on New Year's Day, that was when London schools were told that they were closing. So we had from Friday and then we had Monday, which was an inset day yesterday, but it was a staff training day. And then this morning is when we're open. So the speed at which things have gone. So, yes, last night's announcement came on top of that. So we'd been planning for nine days of closure, which is what London schools had been planning for. We'd been told we would be going back on January the 18th. And then last night, suddenly we're in six weeks more.

So all of the plans and the rotas and the online learning and the laptops and the free school meals, all the planning that we are having to do currently to try and get up to speed ready for this morning, has now been extended for six weeks of closure but obviously we're not closed school staff are in trying to manage and what are your key worker children what are your staff what are your staff saying to you what's can you give us a sense of the mood in the school yeah i mean staff anxiety is at the highest it's been throughout the whole of this period, since the beginning of the pandemic. And I think that's because we've seen cases increasing and increasing in around us. And in December, we were closing classes left, right and centre because of children testing positive and staff testing positive.

And so we had all of that anxiety as we closed. People were not able to believe that we'd be opening as normal at the beginning of January. But then, of course, last week we were told that we were opening normally. And that meant a big job for school leaders everywhere trying to persuade and support their staff with what felt like a slightly strange decision, shall we say. We were campaigning behind the scenes. Headteachers everywhere were campaigning together to get the Secretary of State to listen to what we were saying

about our local situations and how unsafe it felt to open. So that was a huge piece of work in itself where you're trying to be heard by the outside world at the same time as managing very anxious staff. It has been described as the mother of all U-turns, this particular one over education. Would you employ Gavin Williamson, the Education Secretary, in your school? I don't think he can teach, Kenny.

I'm not sure he's ever worked in the school, so I'm not entirely sure that he'd have the experience necessary to work with children or with teaching staff. Consistency and leadership, I suppose that was the view that I was looking for. But we'll talk more about that with our next guest. Our next guest does have the ear of the government. He's a Conservative MP. He's the chair of the Education Select Committee.

I know he'll be listening to what you have to say. When I ask you this, what do you want the government to do now with this time? I know you're not closed, you're still offering lots of services, as you've just described, but what do you want them to use this time now to make sure is in place for a hopeful reopening and getting back on your feet? Is there a particular part of this puzzle that you really need in place in the next few weeks? I'm hoping we've still got you there, Louise. Oh, there you are.

Sorry, please start that. Yeah, so just that it feels as if what we're dealing with, and I totally understand, and what we had all last night, and all senior leaders everywhere will have been doing this, is staff ringing up anxious because they don't want to come in, because're very very worried about infection rates and it's all very well everyone keeps saying children don't get COVID seriously but it is affecting staff and there are a number of staff who are quite sick and that as long as that that situation accelerates school staff and schools are going to be in a very difficult situation managing with staff shortages and also fear of actually being in the classroom with children. So that's a priority to be addressed and to be acknowledged. Yeah a very high priority would be getting school staff vaccinated.

We've got it on the list Louise Nicholls we won't keep you any longer thank you very much for talking to us. Henrietta Wood is on the line and she is representing that large group of people who are expecting to be examined. She should be doing her GCSEs this year. She lives in Worcestershire. Are you celebrating by any chance this morning, Henrietta? I'm going to put that out there as an idea that perhaps some people might be happy they don't have to be examined. I have very mixed emotions. I'm glad that I don't have to sit a physics exam. Some of the other exams, not so much. But it's been so distressing almost because there's just been so many mixed messages and U-turns by the government. And Gavin Williamson, you know, he said we want to put children first, but he's clearly demonstrated that he hasn't put children first.

Just from obviously all of the stress that they've caused from the utah and saying that schools are safe yesterday and now suddenly saying oh no they're no longer safe you can't go in well you could argue i'm sorry so you could argue the exact opposite he has and the government of which he represents he has put you first because they've moved to to say you know they haven't said it like this and perhaps they they should have done they moved to say we've made a mistake. Well, I think the government's track record for children where they are defunding mental health services, where they voted against giving us free school meals and where they are just failing on everything that that will help enhance our lives so that we can come out of this pandemic stronger and they have completely

they've just left us and they just regarded us as well they'll just get whatever results that they're given or whatever was even happening with right which we're still unsure of and it's so unfair and that itself is unfair on our mental health and just missing school so much it's it's very hard and they're completely contradicting themselves and just perpetuating the belief that it's simply not important our mental health is simply not important our futures and our qualifications aren't important and I think I speak for all exam pupils this year I'm in year 11 I'm meant to be taking my GCSEs what is happening what this happened last year that a-level fiasco why why are we still resulting in that now why is that still happening where they are unsure what we are going to do it's it's mind-boggling honestly I think what's

interesting there is of course you know the government would say well we sought to remedy for instance free school meals in a different way that there are various answers that could be given in response to what you're saying but what's so fascinating and important to make sure we hear in your voice this morning is that whatever they're doing it's coming across like they've forgotten about you

like they've forgotten what you're going through and would that be a fair assumption as to how you and your friends feel? Definitely, I think they're being very out of touch with the young people. Just everything that they're saying. And also the deprivation levels and the disparities between state school and private schools. It's only going to be excelled with this new exams, whatever the result of this will be. Do you want to be examined you know

i know i asked are you celebrating but there are other there are other people who who you know been working towards this and want their time if i'm honest i did kind of want to be examined examined but i'm very lucky in the fact that i haven't had to self-isolate um all through year 11 so far however many people they've missed more school than they've had because they've been self-isolating and it's so unfair for the people that have no access to technology you know i go to a state school and as i said there's disparities between private schools having an almost complete timetable virtually between some people that haven't been given their school laptops that were promised by the government and it's so unfair on all of us and none of us deserve it you know this even exam years last

year they had more clarity what what is happening what is happening to us do you think you'll be able to stay motivated henrietta with whatever they come up with as some form of assessment i yeah i think i hopefully can i'm currently having virtual lessons today I just had one um but there's just so much no one knows and and the teachers may be guessing but it's just it's hard to even guess and with that just on the back of your mind like am I just doing this for no reason you know what am I just going to be getting my teacher grade and it's very hard you know I did my mocks in December and I haven't had my results back yet.

So I've only sat a few exams and that might be it. That might be my GCSE. And to have that level of stress is, as I said, it's unfair. Well, Henrietta, your voice has been heard. Thank you very much for taking some time out. You better get back to your online lessons. I know I'm a good excuse, but, you know, we know you need to go and do that. So please do. And all the best with how that goes. Henrietta there speaking on behalf of herself and her friends who are going through this. Let's talk now then to the Conservative MP and chair of the Education Select Committee, Robert Halfon. Good morning. Good morning to you. Happy New Year. What on earth happened between Sunday morning and Monday night in terms of the Prime Minister telling

everyone to go to school who could and then shutting them? Well, I wish I knew the answer to that question and I don't. In fact, on the weekend, I was getting messages from ministers, the Conservative WhatsApp group was getting messages to say that schools were safe, that transmission rates were pretty marginal even when schools are closed. So that's why they could remain open. I was getting messages saying that teachers are at no greater risk than any other profession. I've campaigned for a long time now to get teachers and support staff vaccinated because I think that would help a great deal to keep schools open.

Let's definitely come on to that in just a moment because I'm interested in practical measures. But your answer to that question is you haven't got a clue what happened. I do not understand it. I wanted the schools to open as much as possible. I think it's been a huge shambles. I think the government, this has got to stop. The government has got to offer a consistency, a consistent policy that doesn't change every couple of days, let alone weeks. Do you think the Education Secretary, Sirius Poitner, the chair of the Education Select Committee, is he fit for purpose for this job?

I think this is the whole government. I mean, I've made it my business never to get involved in the personalities, but I do think it has been a shambles. And I think that they've got to use this closure now to sort out vaccinations for teachers, make sure the rapid testing is ready for after half term. I would like mobile units going around schools a bit like the blood donor vans, helping with testing and vaccinations. We need to know what the policy on examinations will be. I hope we find that out tomorrow. Just on that, if I may, and I must stress to our listeners, we did invite the government on and specifically we invited Gavin Williamson

on the Education secretary this morning. We were told by the department and by number 10 that nobody was available. So we are grateful that you as a Conservative MP and also in this role that you have come on, Robert. And you're saying so clearly here that this is a shambles, your party, your party, the party of government. But in terms of how this has happened, you say you don't know. But in terms of the planning that is needed here and what is needed, I mean, how quickly, for instance, can you get the up to 1.8 million children who have no laptop or device to them? Well, there are hundreds of thousands of children, as you say, on the wrong side of the digital divide. The government say that hundreds of thousands of laptops have been delivered and more will go to children over the coming week or so.

But the issue is not just about children having laptops and even an Internet connection. The issue is what is going to happen to them at home. And they have to open those laptops. They have to have parents supporting them. The parents may have to happen to them at home. And they have to open those laptops. They have to have parents supporting them. The parents may have to go to work. As has just been pointed out by your parents, some parents may have to stop work. They may lose a loss of income. There are going to be risks to children's mental health,

as pointed out by the Royal Society of Paediatricians. The reason I ask that very specific point about computers is Ofcom has calculated it's up to 1.8 million who don't have any form of device. The government has promised a million laptops and delivered half as we understand it. But also people are working off mobile data here. Do you think the government should give free Wi-Fi to the poorest of homes? I think that either the government or the mobile providers should absolutely offer free internet. This has been happening in some cases already, free internet for those people who are disadvantaged and don't have a proper computer at home.

And the government say they're delivering hundreds of thousands of more laptops. That's got to happen. It's just got to happen now, Rob. I mean, it's a terrible situation to be back in. But as some people said, you could foresee it. Just on the point around exams, how on earth could Boris Johnson be in a position last night to say that exams are off in England when it has been so insisted upon that they would be on

by the Education secretary countless times and not have a contingency plan to announce? Well, I understand it's going to be announced tomorrow about what is going to happen to exams. And it looks like we're either going to move to some kind of centre-assessed grades or there may be an option of possibly doing exams in the core subjects of maths and English. But I haven't yet seen the proposals. But again, yes, people, teachers and sports staff, children, parents have been marched up to the top of the hill only to be marched down again.

An enormous pressure has been put on them. Do you understand? I'm sorry to say this, but do you understand why some parents listening to you right now have just lost all trust and faith in this government and the Conservative Party? Well, I'm trying to be honest with you. I'm a Conservative MP. I'm trying to be honest with you where I think things have gone wrong. Yes, no, no. But my question to you is, do you understand why people feel this? Yeah, of course I do. Absolutely. And I, you know, as someone in Parliament, say I feel enormously sorry for parents, teachers and support staff. What has gone on? I, as I say, I've been campaigning for schools to be open because I worry about the risks to mental health,

loss of learning, well-being and also safeguarding hazards, because we know that children at home sometimes are subject to domestic abuse, online harms and perhaps joining county line gangs. So what I want now to happen is the government to use this time, as I say, to roll out a vaccine programme for teachers and support staff, get the testing regime working, set out a route map, an educational route map out of coronavirus and a long term plan for education and skills. I mean, you know, still, as we're seeing messages here coming and going, how could you not have a contingency plan ready last night about exams? You know, we just heard from someone who wants to be taking some of her exams. Is anyone listening to you in this position as the chair of Education Select Committee? I mean, I say that with respect because what you're saying is what teachers are wanting,

but it doesn't seem to be getting through. We do have ministers come all the time. I mean, I know that they are firefighting every day, particularly with this new strain of the coronavirus. I just want the government to use this time to sort

out education, to make sure there's clarity and consistency. I hope so. It's got to happen. Have you lost faith because of how you've just said? You've said it's a shambles. My final question to you, have you lost faith, Robert Halford? I hope very much that they will sort it out and make sure whatever happens that children,

schools are open for children, that teachers are prioritised for vaccinations. We have a proper educational route map educational route map, out of COVID. You're not alone in that. But I also want to ensure that the government and Ofsted work with schools, not as interrogators or investigators, but work with schools as candid friends to help them with remote learning.

Because we know that remote learning is going to vary. We're going to have to leave it there, Robert, I'm afraid. But there will be people listening who are hoping that people are listening to you in the highest echelons of power. Robert Halfon, thank you very much for your time. A message here. I'm scared one of my daughters in year 13 shall need good grades to get into medical school, but the government doesn't have a plan. How can this not be possible? That message from Charlotte, who's extremely worried.

Keep your messages still coming in 84844 and others of you just saying really how you're doing today which i'm very grateful some of you saying thanks for asking we're here we are here for you um and and many messages around the idea of this for instance i'm exhausted it's my first day off for over three weeks as a ward sister with covid amongst staff and patients personally i don't care about who's fed up with the situation. Consider others please like us. And after having sacrificed seeing our own children over Christmas, it's inhumane to hear moaning about another lockdown.

Do stay with us and keep your messages coming in 84844. That's the number that you need. Or get in touch with us on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, we have talked on the programme before about ghosting, usually in the context of relationships where a partner or a prospective partner just suddenly disappears and cuts off all communication. It's brutal. It's breathtaking and it's pain. But imagine if your own mother cut you off without a word of explanation.

This happened to Hannah, one of you, our listeners, who wrote to us with her story and wanted to lift the silence around this, and she joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us, and I suppose I better start by asking how long has it been since you've seen or heard from your mum? So any communication at all, that would be about seven years ago now. Seeing at all that would be about seven years ago now seeing her in person would be about eight years ago so it's been some time which is why I feel

I think able to talk about it now if I'm honest with you but yeah it's been some years. And what was the last contact? So I'll prefix that specific answer with what happened because it will make more sense that she told us that if we had children she would disown us and so I always you and your brother yes I have a twin brother who's brilliant um and we were yeah always told there was this sort of mantra in the house if you have children I'll disown you and it was it was said so frequently I didn't think it was particularly odd which I appreciate in retrospect is bizarre um so it was when I was pregnant that the communication um really went from sort of Skype calls and emails and they she refused to give me um her new phone number um so it reduced

down to Skype calls and emails and it was um the birth of my first child. I sent her an email to say I've had a child, you're a grandchild of yours. I had a bit of a difficult labour. So I was looking for a bit of maternal support, I guess, which was a bit misplaced. And she just never, ever, ever responded and that was it. But I'd had a miscarriage previously and the fact I'd been pregnant and went against her wishes, the communication really stopped in terms of sort of being any...

But she'd had two children. Why was she so against you having children? Yeah, I mean, I can't offer an explanation because it's as confusing to me as it is to you. I mean, we were just always told to never have children we were told children were a burden we were told we'd ruined her life and so the the sort of status quo in the household is my my children won't have children that's just the way it was and I think I mean she she had me in the 80s I suspect it was societal pressure that um was the reason that she gave in and had children in the end. She was quite old when she had me for the time.

I mean, that's a taboo in itself to perhaps admit and then obviously very cruel in some ways, if you don't mind me saying, to say to you, you know, I didn't want my children and I seem like I regret it in some ways, so you better not make the same mistake. Yeah, well, it's incredibly damaging. It's the ultimate rejection for your own mother who, you know, the maternal narrative is that they love you unconditionally. And I have two boys now and I do love them unconditionally, thank goodness. But I think that, yeah, it's incredibly damaging. But because it has been the ultimate rejection,

the only sort of positive I can draw from it really is I've sort of been through the worst. So I've been rejected by her. And have you tried? Have you said mum you know I know you told her you'd had your child but come on I want to talk to you. So I spent most of my life really trying um I you know I passed the 11 plus and got into a grammar school to try and make her proud. I went to university to try and make her proud. I joined the RAF as an officer to try and make her proud. I'm proud already. Oh thanks very much I I married a really nice guy he's he's ever so handsome he's six foot two he's an airline pilot he's he's wonderful I I tried everything and and there was just no moving that woman from you know apathy towards us really it's the same with my twin brother and I think that's why

I've been able to get through it as I's been through the exact same experience. He's very successful. He's got two wonderful children. And I think that, yeah, it is the ultimate rejection. And you get through it as best you can, really. And your dad, he's still around. Is that right? Yeah, they're still together. And I mean, my focus is on her because she was sort of the nastiest to me he was more

passive um in the in the relationship really but they're still together I believe they're still alive um you don't you don't know well I'm not sure what mechanism there would be in place for informing me really I've googled the local crematorium to see if they're deceased or not they didn't live particularly healthy lives um but I haven't seen their names. So I'm not 100% sure if they're alive or dead. But my husband actually had to go to the house about four years ago, the last known address, to pick up things like GCSE certificates, my RAF commission scroll, just things they had. And they were there. They were alive.

They didn't ask after me. He got the items covered in mould, but recoverable and left and it was very bizarre I want to say that you've you've elicited a response I mean there's messages coming in one here saying she's not alone you're not alone on this another one my sister ghosted me gone not a word why did you want to talk about this I think that the silence has tormented me a bit and I felt I felt really ashamed I felt like it was it was a poor reflection on me and whenever you say to people you know because there are implications when your mother goes to you like when people take a medical health you know questionnaire for when you have children and they ask about your mother or people say you're going to the kids going to the grandparents for Christmas and you sort of I never know what to say and so it's sort of an antidote

to that I think I'm not ashamed anymore it's happened um and and furthermore it's really helped me to share it because um I was on a podcast a few months ago sharing it and people got in touch and it happened to them and I felt very alien and like I said ashamed and so the way to sort of clear that stigma I think is talking about it so selfishly it's helped me a lot to talk about it do you have to in your mind put it that she's she's gone that she's dead is that how you have to process it yeah so I've definitely been through a bereavement I had had a bit of therapy which helped and I think that's fairly crucial um but yeah I've I've I it was really really hard because my sort of raison d'etre for living my my motivation

for everything because I've really tried to be successful I've tried to do things was to make this woman proud this woman that just really didn't show me much love at all and so I think that yeah it's it's just it's super hard to to, yeah, sorry, I'm getting a bit emotional there, but it's, yeah, it's super hard to move on from. I was going to ask, what have you told your children? Yeah, so that's quite a difficult question because we try and be honest with them and they're three and six, so they're starting to realise. We've just, I try not to burden them because it's not their issue. It's certainly not their fault. And so I've been honest and I've said that, you know,

grandma and grandpa aren't very nice people and we probably won't see them. And for now that's enough, but I know the questions will come and I'm just going to try and be as honest as I can. If she's in any way listening and we've got no idea on any level about what's happened to her not least because of what you said about not knowing if she's actually still around or not what would you want to say to her? I think that I'm not to blame I really tried

and I did really love you and I really tried and I think that she thinks I'm at fault for whatever reason. I'm really not sure. But it's not my fault. I'm a good person. And honestly, don't get in touch. It's done. It's done. I've been through my bereavement.

I'm happy now. I'm a fairly stable, happy person now. And it's just, yeah, it's in the past. You wanted to talk about it because, I say messages coming in you you're definitely not alone and you'll be making somebody I'm sure feel less alone by talking Hannah thank you for feeling like you could talk to us about it and all the best all right thank you now I did mention this right at the start of the program and in terms of what we're able to still do at the moment, lockdowns have been a perfect opportunity for people to go out and explore the great outdoors. There's nothing

really else permitted in many times and at many times, especially as I'm talking the first day of a new, a third national lockdown in England. But maybe you're thinking, how can I mix things up? And if so, a report in one of yesterday's papers about naked hiking may have caught your eye. I kid you not. Would you do it? Have you done it? Let's talk to someone who knows the rules, Donna Price. She's a volunteer for British naturism and runs the Women in Naturism campaign. A big advocate of confidence building and the liberation, she says, that comes with naked walking and naked swimming. And we've also got BBC journalist Caroline Steele on the line who got naked with strangers and a work colleague in the name of documentary making.

Caroline, I'll come to you in just a moment. Donna, good morning. Good morning. I'm seeing you actually on our Zoom link here as we're doing many of our interviews during lockdown and you don't appear to have much on. No, I have my flip flops on. Excellent. And you go naked walking with your husband. Why? It's very nice. We enjoy the feeling of being actually at one with nature. If you haven't actually tried being naked in nature and naked outdoors when you can feel the skin, the warmth air all over your skin. It's such a lovely feeling.

I was just going to say, are you doing it at the moment? Because it is rather chilly. Well, it's actually quite warm in here, but I tend to. No, no, I meant going outside and naked. Oh, no,

no, no. I went for a walk yesterday. I was, I was very, very well wrapped up. I can assure you. So you say it's that,

it's that feeling. What are the actual rules on public nudity? Because the headlines were because of a man getting arrested for naked hiking on a fell near Durham in September. Is it illegal? No, it's not illegal. And I'm not an expert on the law. But if I can just read you a short paragraph from the College of Police in briefing note on public nudity. Right. It says naturists have a right to freedom of expression, which only engages criminal law if they commit sexual offences or use disorderly behaviour that they intend to or are aware may be disorderly within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment alarm or distress it is actually not illegal to

be naked in a public place um carrying out what kind of responses do you get then so with that clarified and people perhaps feeling emboldened by what you're about to say what what are the responses like because you know it's not something most people have tried no um majority of the responses that you you actually encounter if you do encounter the public the general public uh are actually very um encouraging they're they're not um shock horror majority of the time I can guarantee that right um a lot of people say just good morning and carry on some of them actually say gosh you're braver than I am if it's a bit chilly um a lot of them would just say I really wish I

could do that and usually we just say you can I know Donna and we'll come back to you on this that you are really keen to get more women to do it. Apparently the split on this is around 70 percent of men to 30 percent of women that do it. Let's get Caroline involved because, Caroline, you're a bit more on my page on this because this isn't something that you do or had done until a documentary. Tell us what it was like to take your clothes off. And also you were with a male colleague, I believe. Yes. So I was with our our crowd science presenter Ann and um and yes we went to British Naturism some folk for the day and got naked and yeah it was something I'd never done before and it was so nerve-wracking um I mean I drove us there and I tried to pull off in the car without turning the

engine on. That was how nervous I was. And so, yeah, then we got there, we had a tour and I kind of sort of expected to go, I don't know, to a changing room and get naked, which with hindsight makes no sense whatsoever. But obviously there weren't any changing rooms for getting naked. So we just kind of stood opposite each other, Anand and I, and just took our clothes off in this sort of clubhouse in front of lots of other people. And I think the actual act of getting naked was the most nerve wracking part. Once I was naked and kind of getting on with my job, I sort of forgot that I was naked and it was OK. But, yeah, the actual act of getting undressed was probably the most nerve wracking thing I've ever done. Because you would normally only do that in very set circumstances either to have a wash or have sex maybe. Yeah and especially with a colleague it's just not

something that would obviously ever happen. No normally there is that added bit. Do you think there was an added element in any way do you think it could have been easier for him versus you as a woman or what was your take on that together as colleagues? Well so actually we spoke about this before we went and did it so we kind of talked about it at length about you know what things we were nervous about what we were hoping to get out of it and that kind of thing and anand kindly said to me before we went the morning before we went you know i'm more nervous about seeing you naked caroline than i am about you seeing me naked and i agreed with him for some reason i was much more hung up on him seeing me naked than me seeing him naked. And I think that probably is just because, you know, it is harder to get naked as a woman.

We're more sort of judged based on our bodies. But yeah, there was definitely a big difference there. I'm going to be honest. This is not about me, Donna, but I can't think of anything worse. And the message that's just come in said, I tried walking in nature. And this is actually one of the reasons I hadn't realised the insects loved me in places I can't mention uh Donna you you're trying to get more people to join in how how do you do that what added benefit am I going to get or any of our listeners going to get going out for a naked walk instead of just you know doing it with your clothes on um there is a great feeling of liberation and freedom once you once you actually try naturism. And I would never advocate for someone to actually go out for a naked walk as the first thing they ever did. I just would not do that. You've got to be comfortable in your own skin.

So you do it at home, you know, in your own garden, maybe if you can. Get comfortable with yourself. Actually start to feel that being naked feels normal which i mean to me it does yes well to a lot of our listeners it also seems to i have to say donna price thank you so much for your time caroline steel thank you to you and i might warn my neighbors what's going to happen later because you know we're getting a bit bored in lockdown yep done that says this message swimming walking and driving naked i recommend it. Other people like carping. We welcome all comers. We don't care who you are, where you are, what you do or what you think.

As long as you're prepared to join with us in, well, what do we do, Fi? We kind of unravel, we unburden, we unload. What do we do? We're a self-help group of two that other people quite like to witness. And we don't really mind if you laugh with us or at us. You're just welcome aboard a slightly rickety midlife ship, which occasionally has guests who are far more successful than us, but we try not to let that get in the way. We'd love you to join in and, as V says, be a part of it. All you have to do,

if you want to subscribe, is pop along to BBC Sounds and search for Fortunately. It could not be more simple than that. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.