Woman's Hour - The Corona Lisa, Dr Koshka Duff, Magistrates and Revolutionary women

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

Chloe Slevin, a 3rd year nursing student at University College Dublin has been painting well-known masterpieces - with a Covid-19 twist. First came 'The Girl with the Surgical Mask' after the famous 'Girl with the Pearl Earring' then she did a version of one of Michaelangelo's famous works. But her most recent painting is that of the 'Corona Lisa' - the Mona Lisa in full PPE and surgical mask, which she's auctioning off for LauraLynn, Ireland's only children's hospice. She joins Emma to talk about her paintings and what it's been like as a trainee nurse during the pandemic.Emma speaks to Dr Koshka Duff who was detained in 2013 after offering a legal advice card to a black teenager during his stop-and-search. On CCTV footage, officers can be heard laughing about her hair, clothes and talking about her underwear. The Metropolitan Police have now apologised and paid the academic compensation for their "sexist, derogatory and unacceptable language".The Ministry of Justice, this week, has announced an unprecedented recruitment drive, to boost the number of magistrates by 4,000. It’s part of a £1 million campaign to make the magistracy more representative of the communities it serves. They’re aiming to attract people from a wide range of backgrounds, from teachers, bricklayers, stay-at-home mums, and any individuals who can display reason and sound judgment. The step is expected to free up an estimated 1,700 extra days of Crown Court time annually and new recruits are expected to help tackle the backlog of criminal cases caused by the pandemic. Emma speaks to Amie Canham from North Yorkshire, a new Magistrate, as well as Bev Higgs, Chair of the Magistrates Association.Women were contributing to the development of British politics and democracy long before they were agitating for the vote. Very few of them are well known today but all of them contributed something to the world we now inhabit, that’s according to Nan Sloane who has written a history of radical, reformist and revolutionary women from the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789 to the passing of the Great Reform Act in 1832. Her book is called Uncontrollable Women.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. Yesterday I started the programme relaying to you the exact words of some police officers in a North East London police station in 2013. They were talking about a woman they'd arrested and strip searched and said, what's that smell? Oh, it's her knickers. With another asking, is she rank?

It was a group of male and female officers and the woman they were talking about is Dr. Koshka Duff, now an assistant professor of politics at Nottingham University. You contacted us in your droves with your reactions to those words. We had so many messages, texts, emails on social media, all coming in throughout the programme and afterwards, even hearing from serving and former police officers reacting to such shaming and gendered comments. As I told you yesterday and was reported,

Dr Koshka Duff has just won an apology and compensation from the Metropolitan Police for using sexist, derogatory and unacceptable language as they strip searched her. I also said that I would very much like to welcome her to Woman's Hour. Well, I'm happy to report she accepted our invitation and I spoke to her this morning just before coming on air. This is Dr. Koshka Duff's first broadcast interview since that footage became public and since she won that apology and compensation. And I started by asking when she first heard and saw the tapes of what those police officers had to say about her.

I didn't hear that footage until last year because for seven years of the complaints process, the police had refused to disclose the CCTV that they had. So it was only then that I heard those comments. But really, those comments were absolutely in keeping with what I experienced during the strip search itself. During the arrest, the strip search itself is not on CCTV. But what they were saying was no surprise at all. Well, we will come to that and also how you found yourself in that position. But this, of course, came to public light only in the last 24 hours for people being able to see and hear how police officers, men and women, talk about somebody who's in their charge. And in your situation, particularly, I suppose,

as a woman, much was made of your body and of your smell. And I wondered what your reaction was when you first heard that. So it was really clear that they were trying to humiliate me. They called me childish. When I was being arrested, I was called a very silly girl. The sexism of the way that they were treating me was really obvious at the time. And I guess it was just really dehumanising language. And how gender plays a role. I mean, it was men who made that very specific comment

about your knickers smelling. And any woman, actually, a lot of people got in touch with the programme yesterday, can relate to that sort of insult. They probably more associate it with the playground. They don't associate it with the place of work and certainly with the people who are meant to be, if you like, enforcing codes of conduct.

And I just wondered what you made of that particular comment and how that made you feel. I mean, it does give a kind of peephole into culture of misogyny and, I suppose, immaturity. The footage that's been public is actually only really the tip of the iceberg. There are other officers on footage that I have who are, you know, talking about the size of their penis, who are engaging in all kinds of, you know, pseudo edgy banter. And it's just, it's just obviously how they operate. It's like nobody challenged it. It was completely normal. So sorry, you're talking about footage that you have in relation to this case? Yeah. Okay, so footage that we haven't seen that was part of

your proceedings. Yeah. Let's go back then. You were handing out a legal advice card, I believe produced by the Green and Black Cross organisation to a youth who was being stopped, stopped and searched. You saw them. And I just wondered how that interaction in the first place came about. Did you just happen to be near that individual? How did that happen? What are your recollections? Yeah, so I was arrested at a community garden in Hackney for offering a legal advice card to a 15 year old who was being stopped and searched. It was a beautiful sunny day. I was actually sitting outside teaching a mature A-level student philosophy on a kind of bench nearby when police ran onto the estate and started engaging in what looked very like a racist stop and search operation. I went over when I heard shouts of distress coming from behind this community garden centre. And the young person was calling for his mum.

And did you just you happen to have these cards on you or is this something that you've done before? It was very much by organisations that are, you know, concerned with people's rights on stop and search and on arrest. Green and Black Cross train legal observers for protests. That's one of the things that they do. I know people who work with Green and Black Cross. I attend protests and I had this card tucked in my phone case. I must have got it from one of them. So you handed this over to the individual and then what happened? I wasn't able to hand the card over. I asked him if he knew his rights on stop and search and if he wanted the numbers of some trusted solicitors, which is what the card includes. And he said, yes, he did.

So I kind of had the card in my hand and I was reaching out to give it to him. And it was at that point that the police got up in my face, get back, get back, you're obstructing the search, you can't be here. And why did it not end there, if you like? Why were you then taken yourself? So it all escalated in just a few you know minutes they were kind of pushing me to get back

they were grabbing this young person I was at this point trying to just watch what was what was going on but they were kind of trying to get me really out of the area they didn't they didn't want anybody concerned for um his legal rights there with what they were doing and um so within just a few minutes they uh or even less it's so hard to judge time when when um these things are happening they're like right we're arresting you for obstruction and they grabbed me right we're arresting you for obstruction and they grabbed me right and and did you resist that or what happened next because i suppose people listening to this who who don't know very much about uh how the police operate

might think how do you go from that to being strip searched um when i was arrested i went went limp as a form of passive resistance, non-compliance, because I was in shock and what they were doing was unjust and I didn't want to comply with it. So I went limp and was carried into the police van and then sometime later carried into Stoke Newington Police Station. And they strip searched me pretty immediately upon arrival. And the reason for that is what? So the reason that they gave at the time, the only thing they said is we need to find out who you are. Because you weren't giving them that information until you had a lawyer. Yeah, exactly.

They hadn't read me my rights. That's on the custody record that they hadn't read my rights. I don't see how stripping me would reveal my identity in any way apart from, you know, they wanted to soften me up to kind of intimidate me into telling them my details and to punish me as well for standing up for a young person's rights. And one of the officers who arrested me called me a bleeding heart lefty and some sort of socialist. And, you know, this was obviously the attitude that they had towards anybody concerned with the rights that we apparently have. Yes, you know, you're very well versed in and we're attempting to give some advice to that individual that you talked about. And because my understanding, I suppose, and again, you better tell me,

but this being strip searched is usually with regards to if they are concerned that there's a weapon concealed as well, that there is that element to it. So it wasn't, as far as you know, in an attempt to do that. It was about your identity. That's what they said at the time. In the misconduct proceedings in 2018, suddenly a brand new justification was found, which was that they were concerned about my mental health. And so apparently forcibly stripping me naked

was going to do wonders for that. Was that the first time that's ever happened to you, being strip searched? Yeah, I hadn't experienced this before. And what was that like, if you don't mind me asking? Yeah, I can describe what it was like. So I was pinned to the floor of a cell by three officers and I had my hands cuffed behind my back and they tied my legs together and they cut off my clothes with scissors and while they were doing that they were cracking jokes with each other for example about the benefits of strapless bras when they were

cut off my top and they were talking about whether to cut off my underwear. And is it quite a physical experience as well I imagine yeah the the overwhelming feeling of it was was a physical pain and I was terrified um they were all over they were like kneeling on me with their full weight and um uh they had my hands in cuffs and they were kind of jerking them around behind behind my back which um my wrists and arms were completely cut up from this I had quite extensive injuries um which uh my legal representative who I eventually saw hours later um had the presence of mind to take photographs of, which were shown at my trial because they falsely accused me of obstructing and assaulting them.

And I was very lucky to have these photographs. None of them could explain where all these injuries had come from. You were cleared in that trial of everything that you were accused. When was the trial? November of 2013. I think the other thing when reading your story is how long ago this was. And we know things can take an awfully long time,

especially when individuals or organisations seek redress from the police themselves. But how old were you when this happened? Like 24. 24, okay. So I'm just trying to think this has hung over you since 2013. And you know, a professor of philosophy at Nottingham University, you've continued this fight. Why has it taken so long? Well, what I've experienced over the past eight years is a legal system which is absolutely set up to protect the police from accountability

and to prevent complaints from getting anywhere to just disappear them into a bureaucratic abyss so even things which are on paper their legal duties like providing cctv they can just in the first instance they ignored my complaint for two years. There aren't really mechanisms to get them to comply with what are on paper their legal duties to begin with. And then they investigate themselves and they find that what they did was absolutely fine. And, you know, in a sense, I'm saying, you know, they're right that this is normal. The problem is that it's normalized. And what's been the impact of of this hanging over you since 2013? uh it's really difficult to know where to begin on that um so the the incident itself was really traumatic. And for years after I experienced flashbacks and panic attacks and kind of fear whenever I saw a police officer.

The process of going through this complaints procedure, I've just felt like I've been on trial for eight years. Like at the gross misconduct proceeding for the custody sergeant who ordered my strip search, I was questioned, kind of grilled for hours, and he was not asked a single question. At every stage, they've used false accusations to discredit me. I've just experienced a kind of a barrage of victim blaming and gaslighting. So, you know, while I'm one of the incredibly lucky ones who, you know, their false statements didn't land me in prison

and I've been able to kind of keep going with this only because of a huge amount of support. It's been crowdfunded, I believe, as well, your legal campaign. Yeah, absolutely. And that's been necessary because the legal system is really a kind of pay-to-win institution. The costs of taking action against the police are absolutely prohibitive.

Well, the costs of taking action, I suppose, full stop as well, not just against the police. A lot of people are priced out of justice, as it were. You just mentioned, you mentioned it a couple of times, that disciplinary panel in 2018, the sergeant in charge the night you were searched, Sergeant Curtis Howard. He was cleared of gross misconduct. How do you feel about that? I think it just shows, like, the way that they've closed ranks around him just shows that this isn't about individuals. It's their kind of standard mode of operation. Although a lot of police officers who will listen to this programme will say,

you know, there are good people, we are also trying. We had some police officers get in touch yesterday. I have to say, though, a gentleman and a woman got in touch, both of whom could attest to what you were saying and what this footage showed was also a part of it, but also trying to do a good job and a better job. Yeah, absolutely. I think that there are well-meaning individuals in the police, and that's why I say it's not about individuals. The issue is the job that they're being tasked with doing encourages and even requires this kind of dehumanising attitude because of the violence that they are tasked with inflicting.

Well, some would also argue with the violence they're tasked with policing as well. Of course, not in your case, but I meant in other scenarios. The force, of course, has issued an apology. I'll come back to a bit of that in just a moment. And I'm going to compensate you. I don't know if that's happened yet. Has that happened following the civil case? Yeah.

It has happened. And Inspector Andy o'donnell from the mets directorate of professional standards as we have this quote i would like to take this opportunity to sincerely and unreservedly apologize for the sexist derogatory and unacceptable language used about yourself and for any upset and distress this may have caused and then there's a hope that this settlement and the recognition of the impact of what happened will enable you to put this incident behind you. What do you make of that as a statement and as a sort of sentiment? I think it's really striking that they don't apologise for the strip search at all. They apologise because they got caught out in using some embarrassing language they don't apologize

for uh violently stripping me naked you know for my own mental well-being um and by by suddenly acting dismayed at how such a shocking and they emphasize you know exceptional occasional incident could occur, they want them to deflect public scrutiny when they're under pressure. And I think this apology only is a result of public scrutiny. It's the change in the discussion around policing with the kind of stream of revelations around misogyny and sexualised violence in policing

that have been coming out, that have put them under pressure to apologise. And then they hope to deflect that scrutiny through presenting what they did to me as an exceptional incident, when for eight years they all maintained and they were backed up at every level of the system that supposedly ensures accountability, that this was totally normal. I mean, within the statement with a spokesperson for the Met, it said, following the conclusion of the civil claim, allegations of misconduct relating to these comments were referred to our Directorate of Professional Standards and are currently being investigated. This investigation remains ongoing. Do you have

any faith in that? Because that's with regards to professional standards. No, I've seen how the system operates to disappear complaints into, as I said, to disappear complaints into a bureaucratic abyss. They've since sent me a whole load of completely ridiculous questions just to kind of, at every stage, you have to provide more and more and more. The process is bogged down. It goes on for years and nothing comes of it.

But so what, I mean, I'm minded to mention, of course, at this point, last year, you published a book called Abolishing the Police. I haven't read it, but I've read that you wrote it. I highly recommend. Of course you would, like all authors as well and academics. But I suppose I'm minded to mention that because you may be coming at this from the position

which is the police is completely or are completely as a force unfixable. Although there will be a lot of people who do not wish to see our police force abolished. They may wish to see it reformed. So I just wanted to give you the opportunity to say, is there anything the police can do from your perspective? Or are you firmly in the camp? And if so, is that because of what's happened to you? Did you come to that view because of that experience

in 2013? Certainly, experiencing kind of the sharp edge of policing, seeing what it's like in reality has made a difference to how I see things. In general, there is a vast gulf between the people who do experience policing firsthand but are generally not listened to, are generally kind of discredited and don't have a public platform. And the people who are, you know, really only hear about policing from the police's own press releases. And that's that. So there's a serious issue about what. Who tells the narrative? Yeah, exactly. So we have a kind of quote-unquote justice system

and broadly a media culture that will treat the police as reliable witnesses. And what I think my case um many others that are you know the revelations that have been coming out sure is that the um uh they um they can't be trusted you know with the powers that they've got and the weapons that they've got let alone more of them um and seeing that the the idea that that regulations are going to keep them in check. Well, there are regulations around strip search, but they get to decide how to apply those rules

and also when to chuck those rules out the window and just treat someone like a terrorist. I think that we have to be realistic about the way that they are going to use any powers and weaponry that they are given. The policing of the police is something that has been under greater scrutiny, but there will be a lot of people who say, we still have to have a police. You know, even if you don't think they can be policed, we still have to have a police. Even if you don't think they can be policed, we still have to have a police there. It seems like you do not come from that position at all.

So I think there are things that we can do kind of immediately and right now to reduce the harms of policing. So, for example, we need to reduce reliance on police in addressing social harms like mental health issues, right? I think a lot of people can agree that the police are, you know, the fact they justified my strip search on the basis they thought that I was mentally unwell, shows how inappropriate the resources the police have at their disposal to deal with, or to deal with mental health situations. So many deaths in custody and following police contact involves someone in mental health crisis.

And so we can work on, you know, in the here and now disentangling health care provision from, you know, mechanisms of policing and border enforcement. And I was just wondering with your experience then, and I think a lot of we've actually had some of those conversations right here on the programme around the stresses and strains on police because it isn't where it should be, mental health provision and those things. And perhaps, you know, we will talk again about that. But in terms of, I mean, your own situation, you say what happened has influenced, why would it not, your view? Had you been arrested before? You hadn't been strip searched before, but had you ever had any other brushes with the police to to influence that view um what really transformed my uh sense of the police um was uh when i first attended um a protest um against uh the against the massive hike in tuition fees and the cuts to their educational maintenance allowance um uh in

in 2010 um and um the at those protests you know we were um uh charged up with with horses and um uh i and the people around me were truncheoned um and um just saw a completely different kind of the kind of legitimising image that the police present, you know, to the whiter, more affluent, more privileged sections of the population was, yeah, I suppose that veil was well and truly ripped away when I saw them in the business of repressing dissent and they'd covered up their numbers. Were you arrested at that protest? Or just contained? I was, yeah, I was kettled for hours at those protests.

But not arrested. This was your first experience. It's interesting and, you know, this hope from the police, one of their spokesmen, that you could be feeling better after the apology, after the compensation and for any distress cause. And that hopefully you'll be able to put this behind you. How does that look in real life to you? I mean, where are you with that does this offer closure um I'm I'm really happy that the conversation is happening right now um about uh about misogyny and normalised sexualised violence in policing. And I know that, yeah, I didn't comply at the time with what they were doing because it was unjust. And they say, sorry, after the rape and murder of Sarah Everard, the police put out statements saying

women should challenge officers they think are behaving in a dodgy way, kind of, again, putting the onus on women in a victim-blaming way, saying, you know, if you don't challenge them and don't stand up for your legal rights, then, you know, that's the reason why you might be raped and murdered. On the other hand, if you do stand up for your legal rights and in solidarity with those of others, then, you know, I've seen the way that you get treated for that.

And that resistance is taken to justify like an escalation of violence against you. But one of the things that not complying does do is it is it is it brings to light the kind of oppressive and unjust nature of what they're they're doing um and um you know while i i don't i um uh while i yeah i have experienced a lot of repercussions um from from what they did uh the fact that that is able to contribute to um a conversation um and to you know the only difference between me and the people that they do this to every day is that you know most of them don't get heard i've seen how the the complaint system um makes it impossible to be heard so i'm'm really happy that this is being talked about. And I think just on that point about Sarah Everard taking people's minds back, I mean,

of course, the police wouldn't say they meant, you know, if you don't stand up to the police, then these things will happen to you. Of course, I take your taking it from that and lots of other women, especially we heard from on the programme, felt that was completely the wrong focus, putting it back onto the women and all of that. But, you know, that must have been quite a thing to hear after your experience. Women being told stand up to police officers if you don't think what's happening to you is right. When actually people without your experience and certainly without some of your politics and some of the thought you've already given to this, would never dream of doing that. You know, that just wouldn't even be in their being.

Well, exactly. It's the kind of advice that would be given by somebody who had no idea of how the police actually operate or who wanted to conceal how the police actually operate um or who wanted to conceal how the police actually operate um uh and um uh yeah that i think is a really important point that you make that um actually to um to not comply um uh when you're being kind of threatened is really, really difficult. And we have all kinds of instinctive, you know, freeze responses to try to keep ourselves safe in situations of really extreme danger. One of the things that I find particularly distressing over the last eight years is that they have continually used the fact that I, that my body tensed up during the strip search as a justification for having used more force because they said, oh, you were, you know, you were, they said, like, you know, you clenched your fists and you were holding your arms rigid. And I was I was I was terrified and my body was was kind of seizing up. And the you know, so much scrutiny directed it, even those most kind of like basic instinctual fear responses that that's used to justify more violence.

It just shows that you're going to be, you know, you're going to be, the victim is going to be blamed whatever they do when it comes to police violence. Dr. Koshka Duff talking in the first interview, first broadcast interview, since she won an apology and compensation from the Metropolitan Police for their use of sexist derogatory and as they call it unacceptable language. An anonymous officer has got in touch to say it shouldn't be down to Dr Duff to put this behind her quote referring back to the comments that's been issued the statement from the Metropolitan Police and to suggest so is demeaning to her. It's down to us to change so it never happens again.

A message from a retired police officer. I can say that no right-minded police officer would find the treatment of Dr Duff in any way acceptable. I was serving in the Met until I retired in 2015 so the fact that this happened in the last years of my service shows that the service I was a member of for 30 years had already begun to become one I no longer recognise. A message from Catherine who says Dr Duff's experience is distressing to listen to.

Strip searching a woman for insisting on her legal rights, of course also talking about the legal rights of others. It's all about shaming and humiliating in this case and in this case a large dollop of misogyny. But an account on Twitter called Beats Me has got in touch to say, a tweet saying they think it's a lawful arrest. She clearly obstructed police who were arresting a youth carrying an offensive weapon. She then deliberately obstructed police in a lawful search at the police detention centre.

She won a civil case on detrimental verbal statements only, reads that particular message. And then another one here from Sisters of Anne on Twitter saying Dr Duff's treatment by the police was wrong. But, and this may be controversial, so was hers. Had she provided her name, things would be likely have been different. But Adams emailed to say, as a white man in his 50s who was strip searched three times when I was younger, I had offensive and humiliating comments made on all three

occasions. In my personal experience the police really had a twisted internal culture. It clearly hasn't changed. Dye says there as well, from another woman's perspective, virtually the same thing happened to me in 1982. It totally changed

my life. More messages coming in on 84844. That's the number you can text. Text to charge at standard message rate. Or if you wish to join the conversation on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. We're talking about social media. We have put this out on our social media feeds,

this wonderful image. Forget about the Mona Lisa. One student has just restyled the masterpiece for our times, creating the Corona Lisa. Mona is in full PPE, plastic gown, visor and gloves, as well as a surgical mask. And it is the handiwork of the 21-year-old third-year nursing student Chloe Slevin, who's at University College Dublin and has spent nearly the last couple of years painting some well-known masterpieces with a COVID-19 twist. Previously, there was also The Girl with the Surgical Mask, after, of course, The Famous Girl with the Pearl Earring.

The proceeds of that have been donated to charity. And it's the same with Corona Lisa being auctioned next Monday in aid of Laura Lynn Island's Only Children's Hospice. I can talk to Chloe now, who's been a very busy woman, it's safe to say, over the last couple of years on the front line, helping out wherever you can, as well as painting some masterpieces in your spare time. Chloe, good morning. Hi, good morning. How are you? Well, we are intrigued. We want to hear more about Corona Lisa. Where did this idea come from? I don't really know it's I don't really have like a an exact idea where it came from it's just kind of what my life's been all about the last few years I said often I've been quite busy I'm kind of hopping between my studies and work and also trying to look after myself and use use the

art to kind of get away from all that as well but of course I'm finding some way to incorporate it well yes of course you're you're life to incorporate it. Well yes of course your life influencing what you then put on the page. Tell us about your role during the pandemic, what has it meant for you because you talked about going between your studies and work? Yeah so when Covid kind of began here in Ireland and the HSE, our health service, they called out for the students to come in and become healthcare assistants in our hospital. So our hospitals, our nursing homes and wherever else. So I went into one of our large general hospitals, one of my teaching hospitals, and I was working there for a while during COVID.

So I would have been on the infectious disease unit and we were kind of like a step down from ICU. It was tough being thrown in the deep end. Yeah, but look, I can't, there's not enough words to describe how amazing the staff were. They were so supportive. I was really cared for there. So I'm just happy I got to help and this is another way of of helping for me yes well I know it means a lot to you to be able to try and support um services that are directed

towards children yeah yeah and that's what this will go towards the proceeds of this just I did a bit of a description of of Corona Lisa um and you know it's very striking to see something you're so familiar with cast in our times in in you know outfits or if I could put it like that we we just were not that familiar with until nearly two years ago yeah PPE has kind of become I don't want to say the normal for us now in healthcare but it's it's pretty much expected that you you're wearing your your full PPE and it was just kind of seeing it every day day in day out I was actually on a placement uh a college placement when I started

piecing it all together so it was just you're seeing the gowns all the time the the visors you're just surrounded by it so I wanted to kind of make it a bit a bit different yeah well there's a comedy almost to it as well you know in the fact of how she looks covered in PPE yeah a lighter kind of a more light-hearted sense of what what it's all about yes and and I suppose the other side of that though is as healthcare professionals you know you want to be able to feel trusted by those you're looking after and yet you've had this you've had this division between you yeah it's been tough and that's kind of what my last painting was about so that my last charity piece that was for that was called the separation of

adam uh taken from the creation of adam nice so the iconic two hands touching uh except i put gloves on them and it was kind of i i came up with that one while I was working on the COVID ward. And that was just seeing how distanced everyone was. I kind of separated the hands a bit further than the original. And you're not, you kind of lose that sense of a relationship with your patient sometimes. And you could have a patient for a few weeks and they've never seen your face. They've never held your hand. They've only met you through plastic and that was kind of the point of the last painting it was just we were so we were

everyone was so separated and it was very tough you have I I was the last person some people got to see I was the last hand to hold rather than their loved ones and And it just, it wasn't fair on them. It really wasn't. But that's why I use my art for charity. And that's why I really try to support others with something I love. Yes, well, I mean, it's very obviously, not only are they clever ideas, but you're also, the execution is very good indeed. How do you actually do it?

Are you painting? What's your tool? What are your tools? I use paint, yeah. So i'd use acrylic paint on canvas um but look i've ever since i could hold a pencil i was drawing on anything and everything like i i couldn't put it down and it's just it's just been something i've kept myself busy with my whole life i'm having another look again as we speak and they are you know really good really really good and I'm sure I hope that the auction goes well. Just a word from you about I suppose how

important it has been for you to have that kind of interest as well that escapism in the year that you've had because a lot of people have tried to actually take things up as well because they need to kind of escape. Yeah and I'd absolutely encourage it that is it's been so helpful for me like as I said I kind of I started putting together when I was on a placement in an emergency department and that was very tough placement for me um I experienced my first pediatric cardiac arrest and as you can imagine that is just a horrific thing for anyone to go through and it was just I kind of put it on hold because I was so overwhelmed at it I I like had such an impact on me but in saying that it comforted me as well it was kind of something I could you stick your headphones on you stick on a little podcast

or a bit of music and you just get stuck into it and you can forget about everything else for a while so as I said people picking things up during during this lockdown and during Covid I would absolutely encourage it it's brilliant and it's art therapy you know it's not a new concept. It's important to to remember those things especially sometimes that you I know you're you're only 21 you're not that far away from remembering school but sometimes the further you get away from your interests you can forget what you actually used to enjoy doing before you worked and before those things and what a working career yours has got off to I suppose working start I should say good luck with it lovely to talk to you Chloe Slevin there the creator of Corona Lisa we've put it on the Woman's Hour website as well so you can have a look at it if you're thinking about how to imagine that and you want to see it.

And Anastasia's got in touch saying, I've seen that painting by Chloe. It's absolutely fabulous. A great idea. Thank you for that message. Keep them coming in. Many of you are about that first interview that you've heard this morning with the academic Dr. Koshka Duff. Just to read, a former policewoman also got in touch again just now saying, one of my many reasons for leaving my job as a policewoman at Brixton in 1972 was not the fear I felt

on the streets, but was the brutality, misogyny and sexual harassment from male colleagues towards women officers. The police station was a much more threatening place than in the world outside. Listening to your interview this morning, I'm very depressed that in 50 years nothing seems to have changed. Of course, others also pointing out they're depressed by the fact that male and female officers were involved in this footage and in some of the comments.

Keep those messages coming in. But keeping, I suppose, with the system and how better perhaps to reform it, how better to create justice. Would you like to be a magistrate? Have you ever considered it? Do you even know what they do? Are you one? The Ministry of Justice this week has announced a recruitment drive, the largest in its 650 year history. It's part of a £1 million campaign to try to make magistrates more representative of the communities they serve. 56% of magistrates are currently women, but they're aiming to attract people from a wider range of backgrounds

from teachers to stay-at-home mums to anyone who can display reason and sound judgement I'm joined now by Amy Cannon from North Yorkshire who recently became a magistrate and Bev Higgs, the National Chair of the Magistrates Association Warm welcome to you both Amy, I'll come to you in just a moment Bev, very basic question

What is a magistrate? Magistrates are volunteers from the communities. They come to administer justice in the magistrate's courts in benches of three alongside a legal advisor. We don't need legal training or formal qualifications of any sort, hyfforddiadau lleol neu gweithredu cyffredinol o unrhyw fath, ond mae angen i ni gael ymwybodol cymdeithasol a phwysigrwydd yn ein cymunedau ac fod yn hyderus ac rwyf am cyfrannu rhywbeth yn ôl i'r cymunedau. Rydyn ni'n cynnal rhaglen hyfforddiant, 3.5 dydd, 6 eisteddau mentored gyda menter sy'n aros gyda chi am ychydig o amser a chynhyrchu hyfforddiant drwy gydol ein gyrfaoedd, ac rydyn ni'n cael ein hystyried a'i mentored sittings with a mentor that stays with you for as long as you need, and then continuation training throughout our careers. And we're constantly assessed and evaluated. And we sit as a minimum of 13 days a year, but it can be more. We have three jurisdictions, adult criminal,

where we hear over 97% of all the country's criminal cases with a very low appeal rate of 4%. We have a youth jurisdiction dealing with the under 18s and we have a family jurisdiction. So we are quite busy people and we serve our communities with a good deal of commitment, integrity and good faith. Well, I was just going to say that there has been concern, though. Obviously, there is this campaign that it's only certain groups of people who think this is for them.

Of course, there's also the reality, and it's been commented on by a leading criminal lawyer, that in a post-pandemic world where job insecurity is even more pronounced, few can take time

from their job to become lay magistrates. And also we can see that the numbers have plummeted in the past decade, according to the most recent figures going from 25,000 or so in 2012 to 12,500, according to the most recent. What do you think the problem is?

I don't think there's a problem, actually. The numbers were 25,000, but the criminal justice landscape has changed considerably. Over half the courts in the country were closed for varying reasons. 25,000 ond mae'r ysgol ddiddordeb gwych wedi newid yn gyffredinol. Roedd dros y hanner o'r cofnodion yn y wlad wedi'u clwys ar gyfer ymdrinion sy'n gwahanol ac mae'r ffordd rydyn ni'n ymwneud â ddiddordeb o leiaf, os ydych chi'n ei hoffi, wedi newid. Felly mae'r polis yn defnyddio ysgolion allan o'r cofnodion yn ystodol, sy'n golygu nad yw pethau'n dod i'r cofnodion yn ystodol. Mae llawer o bethau'n cael eu cymryd gan yr ymarfer ddiddordeb unigol, come to court that formerly did many things are dealt with by what we call the single justice procedure so we don't use benches of three which is obviously more efficient and there's been it and technology innovations having said that the numbers have been allowed to fall far too low the magistrates association would say we need 17 000 magistrates and it's also true to say, yes, 56% of us are women, 13% of us are from black

Asian ethnic minority communities, which is all good, but too many of us are over 50. And so we do want to encourage younger people to apply, anyone can, from over the age of 18. And a really important point here, Emma, is that there is financial compensation for child care for care of relatives for if you're self-employed and for financial loss for days off work and if your employer won't release you on a paid basis some do mine does but some won't and then there's financial compensation for that as well as well as a normal expenses framework so it's a really open opportunity. i think those are facts that people may not be aware of which are good to share amy you've been doing this as

a lay magistrate since 2017 i believe what why did you choose to do it hello amy hi um i've been yeah so i've been sitting since 2018 i've just started as a presiding justice something i absolutely enjoy doing i am i'm a single mum with two small children at home and so i managed to fit it in don't get me wrong you know i have to drop the dog off at daycare then a nursery and then a school runs to get to court um but you deal with you know i was sitting on monday i had dealt with 15 cases on monday and you come away feeling like you've done a great day's work and that you've really served the community well sorry the line slightly dropped out i thought we'd lost you then but then you came back and we heard what you actually had to say yeah so you do feel like you are making a difference

presumably exactly i do feel like i'm really making a difference. So, you know, 15 cases on Monday have been dealt with by me and my two colleagues. And we've dealt with them fairly professionally. You know, people that have come in, defendants that have come in have left, you know, said thank you because they felt that they've been treated well throughout the process. And I go home thinking that actually I've done a really, really good thing. And I am young in terms of several magistrates that I sit with you know I'm only 35 um and we do need to encourage more younger people to come on board so we are a representation of the communities that we're serving um and I would encourage anyone if they can to take up this role because you know you get so much out of it well you yeah so that that feeling that you describe and also

i suppose what from your point of view what do you wish people knew about it that maybe they don't at the moment and and they also rule themselves out of it for amy i think the fact that you only have to do 13 full days a year so it's manageable and you don't have to have any legal training you have excellent legal advisors sitting with you every single time you sit in court that can give you the information you need you have a set of guidelines that you work to every time so you know that you're following the process you know that you're giving the correct sentences and actually you get to give community penalties and you sometimes feel that.

Actually, you can actually really benefit a person. And I feel it's made me more tolerant as a person. I thought I was tolerant anyway. But you see people from all different walks of life. You hear about their experiences and you actually do get a much better understanding of the community that you live in. Well, I think that also appeals to people if they feel like they can even help where they live as well. Just a very, very quick final word, if I can, from you. I'm aware that this announcement, this drive to get other types of people who may not consider themselves magistrate materials

to consider themselves and come forward. The Justice Secretary-dominant Raab last week unveiled plans to double magistrate sentencing powers from six months to a year. This is in a bid to help drive down waiting times, bring criminals to justice more quickly. What was your response to that? What is your response to that? The MA has been asking for this change for some 10 years or so because it's really important. We were aware that the Crown Court backlogs were growing to unacceptable levels. And this is particularly important as regards to your earlier conversations around violence against women and girls, whether that's emotional, physical or psychological.

Some really serious cases in the Crown Court were taking over a year to come and were collapsing before they got there because witnesses and complainants were pulling out of the process. As I described earlier, the magistrates court has changed considerably. So we have capacity. And it seems to me unrealistic to ask victims or complainants of serious crimes to wait for an inordinate length of time for trial when the lower courts could relieve that pressure by taking some of the cases out of the Crown Court list.

I think there's an estimate that 2,000 listing days a year will come out of the Crown Court list, allowing those other more serious matters to be dealt with quickly, only to the benefit of those people. Sorry to talk about speed, but just in terms of our conversation, our time is sadly up. But a tweet very quickly from Mothership says, I definitely be a magistrate. How do you apply? Bev, where's the best place to look? If you Google the simple question, how can I be a magistrate?

It will take you to a gov.uk site or the Magistrates Association site. And from there, you'll find links to all the appropriate information. You will begin the journey and you will see. Thank you so much for talking to us. You were listening there to a magistrate, in fact, the National Chair of the Magistrates Association, Bev Higgs, and Amy Canham, who's recently become one. And I wish good luck to the mothership there who's got in touch saying she's going to look into it. Talking about then, I suppose, a bit of a theme today around what women have been doing with regards to politics, democracy, and also justice. Women were contributing to the development of British

politics and democracy long before they were agitating for the vote. Very few of them are well known today, but all of them contributed something to the world we now inhabit. That's the argument of Nan Sloan, who's written a history of radical reformist and revolutionary women from the outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789 to the passing of the Great Reform Act in 1832. All this research has gone into a book called Uncontrollable Women, Radicals, Reformers and Revolutionaries.

Nan, good morning. Good morning. I'm minded to say you do start with Mary Wollstonecraft, who is someone we probably do all know something about. Why start there? Was there something you thought you needed to say about her we hadn't heard before? I started there partly because I think it's useful for people to start with somebody they might recognise, but also because we think of Mary Wollstonecraft as the mother of feminism. And actually, at the time, she was engaged in lots of different ideas, lots of different discussions and debates. She was very interested in things

like land reform. She was interested in issues around the French Revolution and how that played out. She was interested in constitutional issues, though not necessarily around suffrage. So I thought she was a good place to start, if only to illustrate that sometimes our perceptions about politically active women are not now quite in line with the reality of the time. Susanna Wright, why did you want to tell her story? Susanna Wright was a working class woman who got involved in the free speech and free thought movement, which was very active at the time in working class communities. And she was part of a challenge to the authority in particular of the church and of the imposition

of religious conformity, regardless of people's own opinions. And she was charged with blasphemy for selling various books and pamphlets from a bookshop. And she was prosecuted by the Attorney General in person. And the case was heard by the Lord Chief Justice in person. She defended herself. She took them on. She argued with them. She would not be silenced. She certainly paid a price for it. But she had immense courage and immense certainty that what she was doing was right. And she didn't take any nonsense from anybody. And I thought she was a really good example of a working-class woman

who pops up in footnotes occasionally. I was going to say, it must have been quite hard to find some of the details about these women and their stories. Well, one way of doing it was following the footnotes in some of the better known histories and picking the names up and then starting to look for what there is. And in fact, there is an account of Susanna's trial and there are her own letters about it, which were published. You say she paid a price. What was that price? She did. She spent 10 weeks in newgate for contempt of court um she was then uh sentenced um to a period of imprisonment for the actual

offense of blasphemy which in those days covered uh you know a whole wealth of of of things um and it certainly seriously damaged her health she she did all of that accompanied by her baby who was seven months old at the time of the trial um and spent time in newgate and coal bath fields prisons with her um so it's also a shocking thing to think of nowadays quite something to think of there of course, many other women in the book, which is the whole point of what you've done here to try and bring lesser known women to the fore. And I thought the title Uncontrollable Women was just something to pause on for a moment. I mean, how uncontrollable were these women from the stories that you found? I think sometimes when you sort of look at them from our perspective, you think, well, you know, that's all right.

People can say what they like. People can do what they like. But, of course, for those women, that wasn't the case. They weren't hugely circumscribed. They had no legal rights. They had no social or economic rights. They had no control over their own bodies. When Susanna Wright went to court, she had to explain that she was there with the consent of her husband. It's just very hard now to imagine what daily life was like for women who had no independence in any sense that we recognize and so what seemed to us very small steps were big steps for them

and then at the other end you've got women like the women of peterloo that the actual quote is from a woman on the evening of the massacre of peterloo who was described as an uncontrollable woman whose tongue no human hand could check and there is an element running through the book of women discovering and using their voices in the public space in new ways. And of course, what voices women have in the public space and how they use them is still an issue today. Indeed, I mean, you're right to really drag our minds back to there were zero rights for women. And it wasn't, I think we do that thing, don't we, of just thinking about or often thinking about, it all began with the fight for the vote. But of course, many, many other fights were happening, as you've pointed out, and also many

names haven't been remembered. Nan Sloan, thank you very much for giving us a peep there into some of the research that has underpinned that book. The book is called Uncontrollable Women, Radicals, Reformers and Revolutionaries. And of course, many of you, when you've got in touch with me very recently and over the past year or so, have been telling me the things you've been fighting for. And I'm always open to those stories. So do keep them coming in. We're all the better for your contributions.

And so many, I have to say, still coming in about our first interview this morning with the academic Dr. Koshka Duff, which you can hear in full if you missed it on BBC Sounds. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

My name's Jonathan Myerson, and I wrote and directed Nuremberg, the new scripted podcast from BBC Radio 4. My father was a lawyer, and he worked with several of the British prosecutors who'd been at Nuremberg. So I grew up taking this huge trial for granted, the trial of the major Nazi war criminals.

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