Woman's Hour - The Crown, Diana and a New Generation

Episode Date: November 27, 2020

The fourth series of The Crown currently airing on Netflix lays bare the ups and downs of the royal marriage of Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer . The drama has introduced a new generation to the Princess, her depression and struggles with the eating disorder bulimia. Jane Garvey talks to the veteran royal watcher Jennie Bond and also to Ali Pantony from Glamour magazine who has herself suffered from bulimia and who says the issues faced by Diana three decades ago have resonated strongly with young people today. Next week the government begins a scheme to get more than a million university students back home safely to their families in time for Christmas. This includes on-campus mass testing using self test kits which give results in 30 minutes, cutting out the need to use a laboratory . Jane Garvey talks to the Universities Minister Michelle Donelan about this and other issues-from the rise in students experiencing mental health problems to the challenges of online tuition.How does it feel to reach the age your Mum was when she died? In a new series we talk to four women who feel a clock ticking. Their stories are all different but they have one thing in common – none of them have felt able to talk about this before. They didn’t want to worry their loved ones or vocalise these dark thoughts. They describe their fears as well as the joy of ordinary life and the freedom that comes from realising that you are not your mother. First, we’ll be hearing from Rachel whose Mum died shortly after turning 40.‘The Extraordinary Hope of Dawn Brightside’ is the debut novel of Jessica Ryn. Published yesterday, Jessica, having only recently finished her MA in Creative Writing, joins Jane to talk about the inspiration for her setting her first book in a hostel for the homeless in Dover.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Jennie Bond Interviewed Guest: Ali Pantony Interviewed Guest: Michelle Donelan Interviewed Guest: Jessica Ryn

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Friday the 27th of November 2020. Hello, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Princess Diana, Diana Princess of Wales, Lady Di, she has been discovered all over again, this time by the Netflix generation. We'll talk about that on the programme this morning. What it's like to reach the age at which your mother died.

We're going to start a series of very thought-provoking conversations with women about their experience of exactly that and some great emails from you already on that subject. If you would like to get involved, you can email the programme via our website, of course. Yesterday, we talked to the NUS President Larissa Kennedy. Today, you can hear from the University's Minister, Michelle Donnellan. That will be of particular

interest to you if your child has perhaps endured their first term at university. What has that been like for you? How are they getting home? What about testing? Let us know how that experience experience has been at BBC Women's Hour on social media. You can also text us on 84844. 84844 is the text number. And we'll also discuss a debut novel set in a hostel for the homeless in Dover. The author is Jessica Rinn and the book is called The Extraordinary Hope of Dawn Brightside. That's later. Let's start with Princess Diana and the fourth series of The Crown, which has introduced that whole new generation to the princess, to her struggles, particularly with bulimia. Jenny Bond is the BBC's redoubtable former royal correspondent. Jenny, good morning to you. Good morning. And we're joined too by Ali Pantani, 28, and somebody who writes for Glamour magazine,

amongst others. Ali, welcome. Tell us, first of all, how much you knew about Diana before this series of The Crown? Hi there. Well, I think myself and my generation didn't know an awful lot about Diana. You know, I think we knew the basics, but we, and I think a lot of us actually remember when she died, but her actual story and her life before that, I personally didn't know a lot about it. So the new series of The Crown has really opened up my eyes

to her story and everything that she went through. So The Crown has, what, filled in the gaps for you? Yes, I'd say so. Yeah, quite realistically, I hear. Right. Well, we'll find out about that in a minute. I just wonder which particular aspects of the way her story is covered in the crown has really struck you. Well, it's definitely her eating disorder, her battle with bulimia, which, you know, the show prefaced with a trigger warning.

So, you know, it's going to be quite quite graphic but it's it's certainly the most realistic portrayal of that I've seen on TV and I had no idea that that's the extent to which she went through that. And you I know have been through it yourself you you believe it is effective the way it's dealt with in this series of The Crown? Yeah I think it's well it's yeah the most accurate portrayal I've seen of bulimia on TV. And I'm grateful that they haven't shied away from it. You know, when we usually see bulimia in TV or film, it's glossed over. You know, the camera cuts away.

You hear someone retching. The toilet flushes. Two seconds later, an actress emerges. And then it's like nothing happened um so you know that kind of representation kind of downplays this illness um it does nothing to destigmatize it especially something that is still so shrouded in misconception and stigma uh you know it to downplay it like that doesn't help people understand it so you know in the crown we witness diana's you know binge purge cycle in quite a lot of graphic detail um and you know the way it

becomes her coping mechanism during you know upsetting and uh triggering times for her so you know it can be difficult to watch um especially someone that's been through it and also for people that you know have no idea what it's like it's upsetting to watch but it as someone that's been through it. And also for people that, you know, have no idea what it's like. It's upsetting to watch, but it should be. Because, you know, this is real and it's happening to people all the time. If it leads to greater understanding, then that's a win, isn't it? That's good. Jenny, obviously, I know you knew Diana. You spent time, just the two of you, I gather, chatting. Did you know about her bulimia? Oh, yes.

By the time I had those long sessions with her at Kensington Palace, it was very well known. I mean, you have to remember, maybe in the next series of The Crown we'll get to it. In 1993, she made a speech in which she didn't speak, she didn't admit it, she was talking about herself, but she said, I have it on very good authority. The quest for perfection in our society demands those demands can leave individuals gasping for breath. And she spoke about the self-revulsion, the low personal esteem that can lead to someone wanting to dissolve like a offspring. Well, we all knew she was talking about herself. So by the time I had a long chat with her in 1995, a couple of years later,

I asked her about it and she said she now had it under control. But it had plagued her for probably a decade. Yes, just listening there to you recount that speech she made back in 1993, that is a very 21st century speech, isn't it? When you listen to those words, that's a speech that could be made now in the social media age. Yeah, yeah. I mean, she said,

Bulimia was a shameful friend and a refuge from having to face more painful issues at the centre of our lives. I mean, Freddie Flintoff did a brilliant documentary quite recently about his battle with it. So it is ongoing.

But I think Ali's right that there still is a stigma about it. And this is the first graphic portrayal, I think, of someone retching down the toilet bowl that I think there's been. But do you understand, Jenny, why young women like Ali have fastened on to Diana for, I suppose, for precisely the reason I've just outlined, that some of the things she was saying back in the 90s are things that are being said today. And sometimes people think they're saying them for the first time. But Diana was living this and saying this decades ago.

She was, yes. And, you know, you and I lived through those years and reported on them. And so it was really odd to suddenly discover a few years ago that when I said Diana, instead of everyone knowing who exactly who I was talking about, let's say who, you know, who, even my own daughter, who's 30, actually paid very little attention to Diana through all those years. And I think this series has sparked a new interest. And it's really important, I think, that they understand the woman she was. But I would also say that every character, I think, in The Crown has quite understandably been exaggerated. There is artistic licence used by Peter Morgan,

and of course there would be. I mean, I don't think the royal family were half as cruel as they made out. Charles was not such a demon as portrayed. And I don't think Diana was as strong as she's portrayed. In her early years, at least. She grew to be strong, but I'm not sure she would have stood up to the courtiers in quite the way we see in those early episodes. So we know there are trigger warnings about the show's depiction of bulimia. Do you think, Jenny, you could justify some sort of announcement saying parts of this drama are completely fictionalised? Please, please understand that when you watch.

Well, yes, I think that would be helpful because reading social media, as I have in the last few days, you know, people are being vindictive about Charles and Camilla. And I think it's really important that young people remember that, yes, this is broadly a reflection of what happened in this very unhappy marriage. But it is a drama. This is not a documentary. So just important to remember that. Ali, do you think, honestly, talking to your peers, that everybody does get that? I think so. I think, you know, I think people realise that it is a drama

and of course Diana is not here to guide the producers and tell them exactly what happened especially with her but I think people are aware that it's a TV show, it needs to attract an audience and I think it's very easy especially

with the portrayal of Charles and Camilla in terms of what Diana went through. It's quite easy to sit there and be angry at them and think, God, what an awful way to treat such a young woman. But I think you do always have to remind yourself, you know, I'm sure they didn't say those exact words. You know, it's not it's as as we say, it's not a documentary. Well, has it actually started an interest in the royal family that perhaps just was largely absent or perhaps was sparked again by the arrival of Meghan Markle, who, of course, has now departed these shores? But tell me about that, Ali. I think so. I think I personally didn't know an awful lot about the royal family before the crown yeah I think so um I think Diana was always the one I kind of cared about a bit more just from knowing as I said basics about her story um but yeah the royal family in general just I don't I don't speak for everyone it's just

my experience but it was just something that never really interested me you know it wasn't it wasn't you know sort of abolished the monarchy but it wasn't you know hanging on their every word and wanting to learn about it but since the, and particularly since this season, it's been something that I've certainly got more interested in. How much though has really been learnt, Jenny, when you think about what the Duchess of Sussex has said this week about her miscarriage, and she's written a very moving article about it. And yes, she's had sympathy and support, but again, she's had criticism and has been vitriol. Have we really moved on? Well, I'm afraid social media has a large part to play. The vitriol that is spouted against Meghan Markle and against the Cambridges,

the war now we have between the Cambridges and Sussex's supporters and fans is hideous. I mean, if I say anything about the Duchess of Sussex, Megan, you know, I've been called a white racist whore for just suggesting the mildest criticism. It's very unpleasant, the social media response to Megan. But I do think that we have there a young woman who found it equally as Fergie did, as Diana did, very difficult, as Prince Philip did, very difficult to fit into this rather strange

and straight-laced family. Yeah. When you think about Diana's journey, Ali, this idea, are your peers actually thinking of her as someone who was, I don't know, sacrificed, almost plucked from obscurity because she was untainted and given a role to which she wasn't suited and with a man who loved somebody else? I mean, when you actually say those words, it was clearly not going to work, was it? Exactly. And I think that's, you know, all those things, you know, being under so much pressure to transform into somebody that she wasn't betrothed to a man she barely knew.

And then as I believe she herself had trapped in a very unhappy marriage, like you say, with a man that was clearly in love with somebody else. It really is no wonder that she developed bulimia because you know when your life is spiraling so out of your control and you have no control over anything bulimia and other eating disorders give you that semblance of control so you know it's it's really no wonder when you think of everything that she was going through and she was 19 that's so young you have all that immense pressure yeah i mean i was I think I'm 17 or 16 when the engagement was announced. And I do remember watching it on the telly

and even I, and I was a complete moron, I realised that Diana was incredibly young to be in that position. So really, really quickly, Ali, has this, I alluded to it earlier, has it led to a wider understanding of bulimia? Do you think, honestly? I think so.

I think that's why we're very grateful to netflix and to the crown for what they've done um i think we have a long way to go i think this is just the tip of the iceberg um but you know the more we have these honest depictions these frank conversations the more we can abolish the secrecy that bulimia and other eating disorders thrive in so the more we talk about this, and the Crown has started the conversation, the more people will get the help they need. Let's hope so. That will be something, won't it? Thank you very much, Ali Pantani, who works for Glamour magazine.

You also heard from Jenny Bond, the former BBC royal correspondent. Any thoughts on that? Perhaps you're someone who is watching The Crown. Perhaps you've never seen it and you don't like the sound of it at all. At BBC Women's Hour on social media or you can email us via the website. Now, around this time yesterday, Larissa Kennedy was on the programme, president of the NUS. And today we're going to talk to the university's minister

and Conservative MP for Chippenham, Michelle Donnellan. Michelle, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning. I'm OK. How are you? Yeah, not too bad, thanks. Now, this is about the testing, the idea that you can get more than a million university students safely back home to their families for Christmas. Tell us how it's going to work. This is the on-campus mass testing. It's being rolled out across the entire university

and higher education system next week, is it? So testing is only one element of our plan to get students home for Christmas. In fact, it complements it fundamentally. The main point is that we've created a student travel window from the 3rd to the 9th of December. So that's directly after national restrictions end, which means that the risk that students would then pose by traveling, that mass movement, would be vastly reduced. And we've staggered it across the days, working with the Department of Transport, working with university sectors, and they've staggered it internally.

And then testing complements that. And it's targeted at the most at-risk areas, so those that have had higher R rates, universities that have had higher outbreak rates, universities that have had higher outbreak rates and those with a higher percentage of students that are vulnerable as well. Right okay and now what does the student actually have to do? First of all this is voluntary but if you do want to have a test what's on the student to actually do here? Yeah so if your university is offering a test then I would urge every student who's listening to take that up. It just offers you that extra peace of mind going home

when you're seeing your loved ones and you're seeing your family, you've had that negative result and that you're not going to pose a risk. And many students will be spending Christmas with elderly or vulnerable relatives. So it's really important to give them a sense of comfort and also their relatives. Of course, Michelle, we don't have a lot of time. And I think absolutely people will get that. But in practical terms, first of all, you've got to register online, I think at many

institutions, and then you have to have one test, then you have to come back for another test three days later. So universities will be providing all the information to their students. And a number of universities will be offering the two tests. Some universities will just be offering one test. So it's important that you check exactly what your university is doing, where you have to go, where it will be done. But all that information will be very clear. And we're working with universities to ensure that they've given students all the information that they need. OK. I mean, obviously, listeners are asking questions. Here's one from Robert.

Could you ask the minister to confirm whether all universities are required to offer tests? We understand that, for example, Plymouth is not. Well, why not? So we offered all universities the opportunity to do this. Not every university is going to make good on that, but we will be announcing next week what we're planning to do in terms of January.

However, we have targeted our support to make sure that those universities that have higher outbreak rates that have the highest percentage of vulnerable students or that are in areas which have had higher our rates do offer those tests to students. Right I mean as I said this is voluntary so what percentage do you think will take it up at all? Well, I believe a very high percentage of students will do. It's really to offer them that extra comfort. We're doing it for them. And we've seen throughout the last few months that the vast majority of students have done exactly as we've asked of them. They've abided by the rules, abided by the regulations and tried to protect their friends and their communities.

But if they find out they're positive, then what do they do? Well, they will have to isolate like you or I would if we found out we're positive. That's a legal requirement. But they could be asymptomatic. And I wonder whether the temptation, if you were a student, would be simply not to have the test at all. Absolutely. I disagree because I have every faith in students that they won't want to go back and put their

grandparents or their parents or their carers at risk. This is all about giving them that comfort to protect their families and their loved ones. It's the biggest incentive ever to get a test. And we're working with universities to ensure that if they do have to self-isolate, they'll have that support in terms of welfare and well-being and mental health and access to food and other things to make sure that they're looked after during that period. And what about coming back in January? How will that work? We're planning to announce on that shortly to give clarity to both students, staff, parents.

And I understand that there is an eagerness to get that information as soon as possible. And I'm hoping to be able to do that in the coming days. And what about if people are asking if teaching doesn't end or hasn't ended on the 9th of December what do you do then? So we've worked with the sector to ensure it does in terms of face-to-face teaching after that period it will go online. So what for any of even the scientific courses because a number of listeners are asking about lab work. They feel that their student offspring have not been able to get access to labs. What about that? Yes. The reason why we pick the 9th, there isn't some arbitrary date.

It is a period of time in which students remain lower risk because it's close to national restrictions. Also, it means that should a student then get traced after the 9th, well, then we can't guarantee that they'll be home for Christmas in time. So if they leave before the 9th or if they are traced within that window, they've still got time to then isolate. And those students that were doing practical courses, they will still end on the 9th with work with the sector to be able to ensure that that happens. If there are students that choose to stay because, say, they have a part time job or they want to stay in their local community, there's no legal requirement for them to leave by the night. But what we're saying is that you then run the risk of potentially having to isolate over Christmas. Right. OK. I just wonder whether for that very reason, that will mean that students might be in some cases reluctant to have these tests,

even if they are available. And as you've outlined, they aren't available everywhere. This is an email from a listener who says, my daughter's first term has been memorable for all the wrong reasons. She arrived in mid-September, got Covid, along with most of her halls of residence, ran out of food and has had the most socially isolating experience since then. She spends 20 hours a day, seven days a week in a two by four metre room. All but two of her flatmates have given up and gone home. All her lessons are online. I mean, this, I don't think that's uncommon, Michelle, and this, it must be unbearable for some students, perhaps a minority. This whole first term has just been insufferable. I completely agree that it has

been a really difficult and challenging term for students. And it's not the term that we would have wanted for them and not the term that they would have wanted if we're brutally honest. And this is all because of the ramifications of COVID. As a government, we've prioritised education to ensure that those students didn't have to put their lives and their academic journeys on hold, which I believe will be far worse. We've worked with the universities to ensure that the support is there for those students and that they should be getting in the main a blended offer, so in person and online. We've got hope now for the next term, so the utilisation of mass testing. The Prime Minister spoke this week about technology coming on stream

potentially around test and release, which offers greater greater opportunities we know that the vaccine is offering hope for the next year so hopefully students will take comfort in that but our priority has always been education throughout this and making sure they didn't have to put their lives on hold but further to your point before around not believing that students will take these tests really think it's important we have faith in students i i do i think that they will recognize the value of these tests and students will understand how important it is to access that test if available. Now, yesterday, we were talking to Larissa Kennedy, who is the NUS president, and the subject of student mental health came up, not surprisingly. How can the answer be three million pounds on Student Space, another online

platform, nine million pounds on mental space another online platform nine million pounds on mental health charities and more money for the next academic year asks this emailer can you ask michelle whether she acknowledges that the best way to address this crisis is to stop the harms which are causing it if students didn't have to spend 23 hours a day in their shoebox rooms many of them would not now be in need of this extra online support. I mean, I know you're going to say that obviously this isn't the term that anybody wanted, but can we just discuss the high cost of rent for student halls and in many cases, the relatively poor accommodation provided? What do you say about that?

So accommodation is obviously done privately by by landlords or by universities and we've worked closely um with them to ensure that all the support is there and available and the offer should in the main be blended so in person and online there will be some students that have had to self-isolate over the last term because they've been picked up on the the trace or at all because they've had covid themselves um and in that case and we've ensured that they have the support available but on the whole it should be a blended offer we've all just been through a period of national restrictions where we can't do the things that we want to do and now we'll be navigating out of that onto a tiered system again next week but this has been

very challenging for students nobody for one minute is denying that. We have to remember what's caused all of these things. And it is Covid. And our priority has to be to keep the public safe and to keep students safe and staff. So there was no way we could have, say, allowed students to be omitted from having to self-isolate if they had the virus or if they were picked upon trace. So it has been really tough for students. I'm working to make sure it's easier next term. Right. OK, thank you very much. I know many people will have a view on that. I'm sorry we don't have more time. That was the university's minister, Michelle Donnellan.

Now, this is something that has really got a very interesting reaction from many of you already via email. So thank you for that. How does it feel to get to the age your mum was when she died? In a new series, our reporter, Jo Morris, is going to be talking to four women with different stories, but who all feel that the age their mother died has really had an impact on the way they live their own life. First, you can hear from Rachel. She lives in Devon with her family. Even people who know Rachel really well don't know about a feeling that she's been keeping secret.

My mum died very suddenly. She had a stroke. My mum died very soon after her 40th birthday. So it was like two weeks later. So there was a big sort of celebration of this special age. And I can remember when we went to see relatives after she died you know people sort of making more of that sort of saying oh you know 40 is supposed to be by life begins sort of thing so that that age is really really stuck it's been really significant it's just felt like a bit of a

deadline really I've never talked about it and therefore it because I haven't talked about it I assumed it wasn't an issue for anyone else I've never heard this mentioned before and I thought it's just me being a bit neurotic really somewhere along the way in losing my mum at the age of 40 that decision in my head was like right that's my timeline then that's what I'm working towards I never expected to make it to 14. I shouldn't laugh at the end of that. Why are you laughing? I don't know. Why are you laughing? Because it does sound bonkers. It does sound bonkers. And how old are you now? I'm 14 now. You've just reached the same age. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of comparison going on between what I'm doing now and how she may have felt when she was that age.

Because as a child you don't think of your mother and what she goes through, you just think of her as a mum. Just, where's my dinner? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, there's a lot now of sort of just, you know, that empathy of where she would have been in her life. So how have you been feeling? Very reflective, I suppose, about being a mum and bringing up a family and prioritising a family. There's just a bit of paranoia, really, that things could just end very suddenly. I could tell my husband was worried about it. My dad's mentioned it before.

What have they both said? My dad was like, oh, I'd be really pleased once you get past 40. I was like, oh, thanks, Dad. So when did he say that to you? I don't know. He said it on a couple of occasions. When you were young? No, sort of 30s. And my husband's heard it and he's like, oh, you know, that's worried him.

I was 12 years old and then suddenly she's just gone life is just completely flipped on its head nothing is what you thought it was going to be and nothing is all the parameters are taken away and personally I just felt very much on my own you know that's no sort of disrespect to the rest of my family it was my approach of sort of dealing with it was to just be very independent and just to get on there's that sort of instinctiveness there and survival but somewhere along the way it was yeah I'm gonna get on with life and I know that life is going to finish just as my mum's life finished and that makes perfect sense in my head. What was your mum like? Her name was Angela. She was creative. She would make our clothes, sewing, knitting. She was working part-time so

I'm the youngest of four and I was 12 so you know all the children were properly off to school and a bit more independent. I think it was just giving her a bit more time just to focus on some things that she liked to do. She a really good cook always cooked amazing dinners and roast dinners you know that's a huge part of our family was to we'll eat together and I don't have many pictures of my mum around I don't really have family pictures up this was a typical after dinner shot my mum's probably thinking, oh, I just would like to relax for two seconds, and I've got my arms all around her,

which is very much what my children do to me now. I'm just like, OK, can I just have five minutes? The old, like, they pretend they're giving you a massage, but it's a sort of intense squeeze. Exactly, yeah. So she's trying to relax with what looks like a cup of coffee and a Bailey's on the side, and the ashtray is there as well. It had taken quite a while ago before we decorated,

so the lovely old curtains. This is back in our family home. That was just life, you know, that was just... I don't think I'm good at looking at photos because it's kind of like, hmm, you didn't know what was going to happen then, you didn't know what was coming, so that's quite sad in a way as well. She's not done her hair life is busy bringing up four kids and a dog and the house and there's something very special about life just being ordinary and no big dramas the security of just having your family

around and and that's what I really love for my children now and I suppose that's what I fear most for my children now is that their world will be rocked in some way. It's a very strong feeling that you've had continually over the years. Yeah, but not consciously. Can you remember when you first had that particular feeling? When I was waiting for the ambulance to arrive when my mum died, that's a really vivid memory. And I think it was in that time that I decided this was it for me.

I had this sort of thought in my head of being older and chatting to someone and saying, oh, yeah, my mum died when she was 14. She wasn't dead at this point. We'd just found her at home, but she wasn't actually dead. And I think that was me sort of deciding then that that was how life was going deciding then that that was how life was going to be and that was how life was going to be for me it's really odd you know I had my

first son when I was 35 deep down you can't sort of shift that ticking time is not on your side and time's running out the amazing thing in that is that you see the absolute beauty in life and the world, you know, sort of moving to Devon was part of that, just wanting to celebrate everything that is fantastic in the world and in the environment and in nature. You almost feel that intensely because you feel it's going to be taken away. So it's a good feeling, but it's very closely followed by a fear, really, you know, being frightened. No. Shush.

Good girl. Hey. Hi. Hi, Arthur. Where's your shoes? So after your mum died, did you talk about it at all in the family not really no I just remember going to the hospital and my grandparents arriving that was my mum's parents and and just bursting into tears I just remember crying as soon as I saw them and I think that was the moment where

I don't know if it was directly said, but it was kind of like, hold yourself together. You know, not in an aggressive way or in a bad way, but it's like, you know, take a deep breath. And I don't think I've sort of stopped holding it in since then, really. Friends who have lost people recently, it's so lovely and joyous to talk about their memories. And it's such a positive way to be. But it's kind of like, how do I bring my mum into conversations with people now you know and it's not a natural thing to do and if I do then I do just find it very emotional so I tend to just sort of back

that away really. So what's this here what have you got here? Ah this is my very subtle cardigan that my mum knitted, which now you've got to bear in mind that I was probably about ten and this would fit me now, I think. I love that. Bright pink mohair. Yeah, with some highly contrasting roses on. I think when I was at university, I probably wore it then. It's just a very special thing that I like to have and I don't hold on to much to do with my

mum but it might have been one of the last things she knitted does it smell of anything it's just got a slight must to it despite being kept nicely kept under the bed in the box it's still got that nice do you remember her making it for you I remember she was incredible at watching television and knitting at the same time and not dropping a stitch if you need to remember she was incredible at watching television and knitting at the same time and not dropping a stitch If you need to remember your mum are there certain things you do? A bit of Barbra Streisand

always, yeah Do you? Does she love Barbra Streisand? Yeah A particular Barbra Streisand song? Guilty probably Can you remember her yeah obviously it's just her I don't know I think it's a combination of just that time 70s dresses and yeah the 80s perms you know it's all very much perhaps. Yeah. I always remember her doing the housework with headphones on. She had a Walkman.

So was it a surprise when you made it to your 40th birthday then, Rachel? It was, yeah, it was. And it was a really odd thing to actually think, oh, I'd better do something. And I was so quiet about telling people I was going to be 40 didn't feel like having a big party I think there's still a bit of a like oh I don't know this could all go terribly wrong at the last minute so what did you do on your 40th birthday we went out for lunch my two brothers and sister my dad so it was understated but it was special did you tell them how you were feeling no no it's only since thinking about talking today I mentioned it to

my sister that I was doing it and yeah bizarrely now however many years on she was saying the same thing I reached 40 I didn't die and that's when I really started to see myself as me and think, wait a minute, I'm not my mum. I'm not my mum. And that, you know, actually saying that, so I'm not my mum. And thinking, why have I never said that to myself before? That is actually quite freeing and exciting. It's not a scary feeling. Dare I look to, you know, being 41, 42, 43. But I'm quite excited by the fact that there is no road map. I think it's a very freeing feeling.

Has it made you feel less lonely reaching out? Yeah, it has. It has. I've sent messages to friends who have lost their mum and I opened up a conversation with them about it and again been completely surprised that they've had similar feelings. It really does feel like being back in the world again. It feels like there's nothing bad that can come out of talking about it more. It's not going to be an easy conversation to have with my family

and to actually pick up the phone and say hey, should we have a chat? It's going to be huge. I love it. I love a bit of Babs. A bit of Babsing? Yeah. She is my connection. The power of Barbara Streisand. That was Rachel talking to our

reporter Jo Morris about reaching the age at which her mum had died. Next week, another story, this time from Titiana. How have the deaths of her mother and her grandmother shaped the way that she sees her own life? And you can keep your emails on this subject coming. Some really nice ones. Thank you very much. You can do it via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour now to a debut novel by jessica rin the book is called the extraordinary hope of dawn brightside and jessica joins us live from her home jessica hello good morning how are you hello i'm good thank you thank you very much for having me great pleasure now this is an unusual book um for any number of reasons first of all the setting is a hostel for the homeless in dover now that's right why that as a location i've worked in hostels for several years

as a support and resettlement worker um in dover uh one time as well and i was just so inspired by the residents and watching people turn their lives around and i wanted to give homeless people a bigger voice in fiction so you often hear kind of sort of sad stories or even sort of scary stories sometimes and I wanted to write something uplifting so that it could bring some hope to people yes now I imagine I mean people hear that it's possible for any of us to become homeless what is it you need three bits of consecutive bad luck and then yeah that's exactly it's possible for any of us to become homeless. What is it? You need three bits of consecutive bad luck. Bad news. Yeah, that's exactly it.

It's so easy for it to befall anybody. And that's something that I really wanted to hit home, just to stop people from always being so judgmental and just knowing that there's always more to the story. Yes, I think that's a really good point. And I'm really glad you're making it in the book. Can you do a reading for us? Just set this one up for us,

because your central character is called Dawn. Now what do we need to know about Dawn? Yeah so Dawn is homeless and she's running from the secrets of her past. She's offered a bed in a homeless hostel which is then threatened with closure due to funding cuts which is something that really commonly happens. Dawn and her fellow residents band together because they want to try and save it and Dawn has to stop her past from catching up with her. Right, on you go then. Okay. One by one, each face in the room drains of colour. Dawn's face must look the same. Four months is so soon. If the hostel closes, what will Dawn do then? Who will be left for her to look after? St Jude's is just so much more than just a roof over their heads. No. The word falls out of Dawn's mouth before she even knows it's in there.

Every face is pointing towards her as something stirs deep inside her belly. We can't give up in this place. I won't. There's 16 of us who live here as well as staff. Am I right? You read about it all the time and there are definitely films about it. You know, when people band together to raise money for a good cause, we could be those people. A cluster of blank faces stare back at Dawn. They don't get it, not yet. They've had too many years of no and can't and move the hell on, you're not allowed to sleep here.

We have four months dawn carries on if we do it in shifts we can use all of that time to raise money for st jude's well that sets it up very nicely um and i just wonder when you were working in this area how close were you to writing a book was it in your mind at all oh not at all i used to joke sometimes with um with the other staff that it would make a great tv show or a great book just because it's such a fascinating place to work. But I never actually thought I would write. That was something I did quite a bit later on. Right. And the people you met in the hostel, is it possible without breaking any confidentiality regulations to tell us how some of them had ended up there oh there's always always a story and very often there's some really sad stories of abuse um many people have had really difficult childhoods but it's sometimes it's just people just having

damn bad luck sometimes it's just someone's business had gone under and their marriage had broken up um you know a relationship relationship had gone wrong or they were fleeing violence. They were really worse. All sorts of, there's a whole spectrum of problems. But a lot of it does come from sort of a lack of support. So some people didn't have good family support around them. Not all the time. No, and I know you said you want to be positive.

Yeah. The hostel played a part in allowing these individuals to change their lives for the better. Yeah, absolutely. And it was wonderful to see. It doesn't always happen. People don't always get their happy ending like some of the residents do in the book. But there are so many people that do. And it's just it just shows how important our homeless hostels are. They're not just a. They are an absolute absolute lifeline they help people with a myriad of other things as well so getting back to work um accessing training sometimes reconnecting with family as well if something's gone wrong that can be can be fixed and they're all things that can

contribute to people's lives being turned around so that's why it's so important that we get better funding in our hostels because some are closing down and ones that aren't closing down are losing staff because of funding cuts or they're losing resources as well. And I think it's a time where we're going to need homeless services more than ever as a result of what's happening at the moment.

Yeah, so many people obviously up against it in all sorts of ways right now. I know that your own personal situation is not that usual because you are writing. You've now got a two book deal, which is brilliant. But you're also a carer. Yes. And that is also the subject of your next book. So tell me a little bit about that. originally about caring it just became about caring because it's something it's a big part of my life and so I was actually working as a midwife and I gave that up for a while because my husband's very unwell he has mental health issues so I'm a carer on and off for him and when you care for someone with mental health issues it's quite sort of a transient thing so somebody can be quite well one week and then another week need a lot more support, which has been a challenge. But I think during lockdown, all carers,

the things that they're dealing with anyway, have just been that much more magnified. So carers are often quite isolated as it is because it's not that easy to just get up and go out sort of at the drop of a hat all the time um carers aren't also aren't don't have access to the support network that they normally would have so there's a lot of carers groups that people go to um or they're not able to go out and see their friends and family and sort of unload and have their needs kind of met yes it's really important isn't it that books are written by people like you with a rich and varied working life experience I mean I don't mean to criticize people who go to a great university and then write

a book but that that's one set of circumstances isn't it you've got a lot to draw on in your own life yeah I found that really helpful actually I did I did write a practice novel before I ever wrote Dawn Brightside and I think about was there was just a sort of a story really and it didn't connect it only started connecting when I started writing what I know and it's nice to be able to write something that you feel quite passionately about and you want to get a message out that could help other people as well that could be in the same situation. Is that good advice then I mean I'd love to know do you think your practice novel will ever see the light of day? No definitely not. Why not? What's wrong with it? Well what's right with it no it was uh i enjoyed

doing it that's where i learned i made a lot of mistakes that's where i learned um how to write because i think you learn how to write just by writing sometimes um i have recycled something so the setting i love the setting that i did in my practice novel and that's been recycled for book two which is out next november right okay nothing's wasted no well that's something that's been recycled for book two which is out next November right okay nothing's wasted no well that's something that's extremely good advice I mean it's just you have to in the end sit down and do it don't you there is no absolutely there's no alternative to that that's the novelist Jessica Wrynn whose first book is out now and it's called The Extraordinary Hope of Dawn Brightside and I'm looking forward as well to reading her next one about being a carer, because that again is not always a subject that's addressed by novelists. So it'll be interesting to

have a look at that when it comes out late next year. Now to your thoughts on the programme today, loads of good stuff from you. Thank you. This listener says, as a bulimia sufferer for the past 20 years, having developed the condition while being treated for anorexia, I was pretty desensitised watching the portrayal of Diana in The Crown. My husband and I discussed it after watching since I only recently started opening up and being more honest about what is a very difficult illness to hide. I'm curious if you've heard from many other sufferers and whether Woman's Hour would perhaps open up the discussion to bring to the forefront a topic, while incredibly shameful for many people. It's this silence that feeds shame and that perpetuates a terrible cycle. Like Diana, I'm actually underweight and the misconception that sufferers of bulimia tend to be overweight is again a misnomer through misinformation.

Well, to that listener, it is a subject we have addressed, I think actually in the recent past. So if you were to go to a search engine and have a look for bulimia and women's hour, you will find a conversation on the subject. I'm pretty sure we did, certainly within the last year. Although I don't know about you, I have found that during the course of lockdown, my memory about what happened and when it happened, it's all getting very hazy, but I know we have done it. Susan says, I've refused to watch this from the beginning as

it's inevitable, as it's a drama and there'll be exaggeration and fiction and it's cruel and unfair on the characters who are alive or dead, but cared about by the present family. This latest series sounds worst of all, as I predicted when I heard about it. Think about the two princes,

for goodness sake, let alone Prince Charles and the Queen. On your programme, you said people should realise it's exaggerated in many ways and should be viewed with that in mind. But the people who are most likely to take it as fact are not listening to your programme. Yes, that may be true, although you'd be surprised by who listens to Woman's Hour. All sorts of people. Paul says, I think it's ethically wrong to claim something as fiction when you're writing living people in factual situations. If you're going to make up relationships and dialogue, do it as the West Wing did about a presidency, or Succession has done about a media family which is similar to the Murdochschs but is clearly fictional. Andrea says, interesting to hear this discussion just now and yes, it was a valid point that Diana was only 19

but didn't her own family query what she was doing? Surely older and caring siblings would have sat her down and had a conversation about what marriage to the Prince of Wales would involve or were they all blinded by the glory of having the future queen as part of their family? Yeah, well, that's an interesting point. Of course, Diana had two older sisters and a younger brother. So certainly they'd grown up, I think,

around the royal family. So they did know. So yeah, that's a reasonable point. On to the subject of students. Sharon says, what about those students who quite reasonably decided that going to campus was a silly idea when all their teaching is online but still have to pay their rent or hall fees? My son's paid two and a half thousand pounds for his university room and spent two nights in it. Yes, I'm glad that you made that point about the cost. My daughter is at university, so I am sort of aware of the cost of accommodation. It's astounding when you think about it. It's a

lot of money for a room that, let's be honest, in some cases, and obviously I'm a doting mother and I want my little princess to be in comfort, but in some cases wasn't brilliant. I have to say, I was, I mean, she's in her third year now, so she's not in that situation. But I do feel for anyone worried about their first year child right now. However, here's a more positive note from Helen. My son went to York University at the end of September. We live in Somerset, so he hasn't been home and we haven't seen him since then. We're so excited about our reunion on the 9th. I've got everything crossed that he's not delayed by a positive test. His university has been really organised and have communicated with students so they all know what's happening. I just want people to know that his experience has been so much better than your representing. I know of many have had a difficult time, but my son has been so lucky to live with 11 others in his bubble and they've all supported each other. They have not had to self-isolate, nor have they had COVID. He has really enjoyed being away from

home. Getting to know a manageable number of people has really suited him and he's enjoyed cooking for himself and I quietly feel a real sense of pride for having prepared him. That's good. That's a more positive note. Glad about that. From Debbie, as a parent of a first year student, I'd like to say that although it has been difficult, they did go willingly and in the full knowledge of the possible disruption they'd experience. My daughter's had online lectures and face to face ones. She had suspected COVID earlier in the term, which meant that she had to isolate in her room and her flatmates were quarantined in the flat. They coped amazingly. Five girls who were still

in the very early stages of getting to know each other and they pulled together. If anything, this has made their friendship stronger. Well, that's good to know as well. And I think I did say earlier in all this that some fantastic friendships will have been forged during these months at university. I suspect lifelong connections will have been made. And that's fantastic. And perhaps we ought to celebrate the support that many students have been able to provide for each other. From Nick, re-your interview with Michelle Donnellan. My son is now in his fourth year of studying chemistry at Durham University.

Most of his work this year should have been a practical research project in the labs, but he's had no lab time and as things stand, is unlikely to get any until the spring. I understand that Covid's had a huge impact for us all, but endless online teaching is not an adequate substitute. Yet the university's minister still believes that it's right that he should pay the full tuition fees. I'm sorry, I don't normally write to programmes, says Emma, but this woman, Michelle Donnellan, is talking nonsense. I've got children at university in the North East and they're not getting any live education. is all online the support for them is dire yes they have all had covid something has got to be done to compensate compensate them for this ghastly

experience okay uh so many here uh from jane my son is a third year student lives in a house with three others who've been exemplary in isolating throughout all this. The university is aiming to test all students in a very short period of time. He's reluctant to go out and mix with others in order to get the test when the queues may cause him to catch Covid. Yeah, I get that. I suppose that's a thought as well. And I just want to acknowledge the many we've had emails from lecturers saying they're doing their best. And here's an email, too, from somebody who works in student well-being i'd be grateful if you didn't use my name or don't worry about that our whole team are working so very hard in normal times with the current situation we're under incredible pressure but we keep going because we really do

care and we realize how important our service is right many of you wanted to talk about the age at which your mother died and how it affected you. My lovely mum died suddenly with a brain aneurysm in 1963 when I was just 14 and it was the most horrendous day of my life and I've never got over it. I should say I'm 72 now. There's been a huge gap in my whole life and i've always felt very abnormal when i was a child as i was the odd one out with no mum my father was an alcoholic and my sister and i looked after ourselves during our teenage years i felt for years and years an outsider the thing i've missed most is just being able to be hugged and to hug my mum i'm so sorry to hear that that's obviously the death of a much-loved parent that's

had a lifelong impact. Angela says, I'm not sure I will ever make the age my mother dies at, as she's 94 next month. It's lovely that she's still with us, but so hard in Covid times not to be able to see her and give her a hug, especially knowing that she might not be here for much longer. From Angela, this was so real for me. My mum died just after my 21st. At my 18th, she said to me, well, have a proper party when you're 21. So really, of course, there was no celebration. Nothing but misery, which I've never been able to get over.

It was such a shock. From Sue, I was 47 when my mum died suddenly. It was instant role reversal. At that moment, I had to look after my dad, who was just 72. I had to deal with his grief. I hardly had time for my own. And from Tricia, both my mother and grandmother died at 69. I'm 69 next year. Yes, I do joke about it, but I'm anxious. Honestly, I could carry on reading so many of these and I just want to end with this one, which just made me smile a little bit. I was listening this morning. I lost my mother when I was 17 and she was in her early 50s.

I was convinced that she'd been 53. As I approached that age, I was very concerned. We were abroad for a long time. We came home and I went to my mother's grave and found out that actually she'd been 51 and I was already 52. I sat down on her grave and I had a laugh and honestly I felt I could hear her laughing too. That's lovely. Thank you for that. That's from Margaret. We're back in radio and podcast form with the best of our Woman's Hour week and then of course we're back live two minutes past 10, Monday morning. Thank you for listening. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.