Woman's Hour - The Cumberlege Review, Motherless daughters, Women in the video games industry

Episode Date: July 11, 2020

A highly-critical review of three medical treatments for women in the UK found thousands of lives had been harmed because officials failed to listen to safety worries and often dismissed them as "women's problems". The Cumberlege Review examined responses to concerns about a hormone pregnancy test, a drug for epilepsy, and vaginal mesh. We spoke to the BBC Health correspondent Anna Collinson, and to Baroness Cumberlege about her review. And we heard reaction from Clare Pelham, CEO of the Epilepsy Society, and Mary McLaughlin, who has campaigned for women affected by pelvic mesh in Ireland.The video games sector makes up more than half of the UK’s entire entertainment market. Women are 50% of those who play but the number of women working in the industry is much lower. Jordan Erica Webber, a video games expert, Katie Goode, who makes VR games, and Abbey Plumb, a producer for a games company discussed their experiences of working in the video games industry.It’s 1957 and Jean Swinney, a journalist on a local paper in the London suburbs, is investigating a story about a virgin birth. As she gets closer to the people involved Jean’s lonely and dutiful life becomes more interesting and she experiences a miracle of her own. Clare Chambers’ book ‘Small Pleasures’ is her first for 10 years and it was an item on Woman’s Hour which sparked the idea.After the death of her mother, Emma Winterschladen has gone through what she calls ‘missed mum moments’ including graduating university, her first job and more recently her engagement. How do motherless daughters navigate these big moments without their mothers? Freelance Editor, writer & illustrator Emma Winterschladen and psychologist Anjula Mutanda discuss.Twenty year old student Abigail McGourlay is the winner of The Arts Society’s national Isolation Artwork competition. She told us about her winning self-portrait 'Brewing'. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, good afternoon. Welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. This week, what it's like when your mum dies when you're very young and you have to navigate all life's milestones without maternal support. Within the last month, I got engaged. And after the weekend of emoji-filledapps and social distance barbecues I found myself actually sitting on a Monday evening and it really really hit me and I just you know quite simply I just really missed mum. Well not surprisingly there was a big reaction

to that item and you can hear it on Weekend Woman's Hour this week. We'll also talk to Claire Chambers, the novelist, about her latest novel, Small Pleasures. It's about a virgin birth in 50s Britain. It was inspired, in fact, by an item she heard on Woman's Hour. And we'll talk too to Abigail McGaughley, the winner of a major art prize for a self-portrait called Brewing. Now, the Cumberledge review was published this week and it focused on three separate NHS health scandals, all of which severely affected tens of thousands of women. Vaginal mesh implants, an oral pregnancy test called Primidos and an anti-epilepsy drug, sodium valproate. The Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, has since apologised and has said it's important that lessons are learned from this.

These scandals all have one thing in common. Women were given medical products that hadn't been properly tested and when they complained, they weren't believed. The Cumberledge Review into these scandals was chaired by Baroness Cumberledge and you can hear from her in a couple of moments. First, here's a BBC health correspondent, Anna Collinson, explaining the three separate scandals. First, the anti-epilepsy drug. This is called sodium valproate, and if taken during pregnancy, it can harm an unborn baby, putting them at risk of developmental disorders and birth defects.

And yet 17,000 women of childbearing age in the UK are being prescribed sodium valproate every year. They should all be on what's called a pregnancy prevention programme to ensure they're aware of the risks. But campaigners claim that often isn't happening. And it's estimated 20,000 children have been harmed in the UK after being exposed to sodium valproate. To be clear this is still being prescribed? Still being prescribed yes. To pregnant women? To pregnant women and they're put on this pregnancy prevention programme there are warnings on the labels but people are still falling through the net and babies are still being harmed. Right okay let. Let's move on then to Primidos.

This is something, an oral pregnancy test, which is no longer given. That is something. Yes, that's correct. So Primidos, an oral pregnancy test, which was used by more than a million women in the UK between the 1950s and the 1970s. And the way it would work is a woman would take two pills and if they bled, it meant they were not pregnant.

Now, it was removed from the market in 1978 but the manufacturer sharing now part of Bayer has always denied a link between the drug and deformities in babies. But hundreds of families disagree and have been campaigning for decades for that to be acknowledged. The ramifications are financial, that would be one thing presumably? That's definitely what the campaigners and people affected are hoping for. I mean, what's important to recognise with these three health scandals is while they are different and they happened across a space of 60 years, there are a lot of similarities. Like all of these are women. Most of them are women who are affected. We have heard time and time again they were not warned about the risks or, in the case of Mesh, not told about alternative,

less invasive options that they could have had. When they reported problems, they weren't believed. They were made to feel like they were going mad, that they were being irrational. And their stories were only heard after determined, patient-led campaigns, which often took decades and a great deal of determination and patience. I think a lot of our older listeners will be hearing you now and thinking, I do feel I've heard all this before in other and not dissimilar circumstances. Let's go on

to Vaginal Mesh, which is something that this programme has discussed a lot over the years. And by the way, any listeners who've got a point to make at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter, or you can email the programme via our website, bbc.co.uk slash women's hour of course. Talk about mesh then and the impact this has had on thousands of women's lives. Yes so this was seen as a quick fix to treat incontinence and prolapse so often was carried out after a woman has given birth. Studies suggest one in ten women will experience complications following a pelvic mesh repair. And it's thought around 100,000 women have had a pelvic mesh repair. So that's around 10,000 women that are affected. Once in the body, the mesh can stiffen and erode and

sometimes cut tissues and organs. And that can lead to complications, including chronic pain, difficulties walking. We've heard many cases of lost jobs, broken relationships. I've spoken to many women who felt suicidal because of what they've gone through. The use of pelvic mesh is currently paused. Not banned. Not banned. That is key. It's currently paused in NHS hospitals. That pause was brought about by Baroness Cumberledge within months of her starting her review. She was appalled by the stories that she was hearing. And that pause will be lifted that we've been told when certain conditions are met. For example, specialist centres for procedures and removals, appropriately trained surgeons and a national database where every operation is reported and recorded.

That's a BBC health correspondent, Anna Collinson. We also heard from Benita Barrett, who told us about her mesh implant. I just knew straight away that something was wrong. And I was told that it was bruising from the surgery because I'd also had a prolapse repair at the same time. I believed him for the best part of a year every time I returned to the hospital. And he kept saying that it was still a matter of bruising from the surgery but after a year I had an episode where for three days I could hardly

walk I kept experiencing shooting pains in my groin every time I took a step and I was really really anxious about it I went back to the hospital and he again told me that it was bruising at this point I actually told him that I was bruising. At this point, I actually told him that I'd had a look online and I found that there were a lot of women that weren't complaining of bruising, they were complaining of something else and he dismissed it completely and referred me for an MRI. He said it must be my back and obviously the MRI came back, it said that there was nothing wrong and I was just um put on the the dump basically I was referred to the pain clinic and and that was it mid-40s and you've just got

to deal with it for the rest of your life and there's obviously nothing wrong with the mesh as far as they were concerned this I think will again be ringing bells with with too many of our listeners you were well the modern day term I know it's not actually in itself a modern day term gaslighting um it was all about you imagining things, Benita, which is a pretty horrific experience to go through, isn't it? Completely. For more than a year, I just felt like nobody was listening. You know, they assume that you're either hormonal or it's in your head or, you know, it's that time of life because you're in your 40s. You know, it must be the menopause that's causing the aches and pains and so on. And I ended up actually having to take it into my own hand to get some answers. Benita Barrett. And here is Baroness

Cumberledge on some of the recommendations in her review. Well, one of our major recommendations is that we should have a patient safety commissioner. This is somebody who will really listen to patients, hear what they say and monitor what is going on. They will also call the healthcare system to account. And that is important because people have been going on and on and on, promising things, and nothing has happened. So we want action as soon as possible. I think a lot of people, a lot of our older listeners will obviously think back to thalidomide, and they will simply not be able to believe that these three separate scandals were allowed to happen. Can you understand that? I am deeply shocked. I think this whole thing has

been a mega disaster. And it's not just about looking at one rogue surgeon or a hospital that's falling apart or whatever. This is about thousands of women in three different areas who have been ignored. And indeed, in one, sodium vulparate, which is taken by women who are epileptic and it controls that, it is still happening today. And those women, if they are not told, if they are not aware that this drug will cause them damage, then they have a chance of one in two babies being seriously harmed. Well, let's start then with that anti-epilepsy medication, as you say, still being

prescribed. Should it be banned? We can't just ban things because for some women, it is the only medication that really controls their epilepsy. But what it does need to do is to ensure when they are pregnant or thinking of getting pregnant, then they should stop or at least consider, talk to their clinicians and possibly not continue with that particular drug, but see if there are better alternatives. And Primidos, that now isn't in use, but the impact of that was absolutely colossal. It was. And again, the really shattering thing about that particular event is that it could have been stopped. People knew it was harming. The concerns were rising. And yet nobody said, we've got to take this off the market now. And these poor parents with their siblings who now are in their 50s, 60s, whatever, who is going to look after them in the future?

That is a real worry for them. When Primidos was being prescribed, the impact was felt, if not acknowledged, and yet again, people suffering were ignored. Did this happen at every level of the NHS or were some people more inclined to intervene and acknowledge the mistakes that were being made? Well, what we are saying very strongly is that the health care system really has failed. It's failed these women.

What about the people you spoke to? Because this has been a work that has, an effort that has taken a huge amount of your time. I think you and your fellow members of the review have travelled the length and breadth of the land talking to people. What have you heard and what have you seen? Huge suffering, terrible, terrible things happening to families. We've seen women who've had mesh inserted, but they have been active previously. They are now reduced to a wheelchair. And this is because of the enormous harm

that has been done to them. And we have heard the suffering in all three areas. And this should not happen. It was avoidable. And that is the thing we want to really put right for the future. And some of our recommendations are about the future because the nation should not go through something like this again. But what is terrifying is that there appears to be

a culture of denial here at work, going back many, many decades. How do we change that? Well, you are so right. That denial is absolutely unacceptable. And we have heard even now that that is happening in some quarters. And women are being told, all right, well, you think you're suffering, but actually it's all in your head. You're just thinking about it. It's not true.

It is true. We have got recommendations that we think will address these issues for the future and ensure that in the future, these sorts of things will not happen, especially to the extent that it has in what we have been studying. Vaginal mesh, its use has been paused but not banned. What's the situation now?

Well, we were horrified by what we heard and we said we must halt these operations. So in July 2018, we halted them. And they have not been reinstated. And we said, if you are going to reinstate them, you must have these safety measures. Those safety measures, two years on, have not been met. And we say, well, if in the end there is a woman with cancer and this is the only option that she has, we're saying these women should be told exactly what the risks are, obviously what the benefits are, if there are benefits, but the risks, and they should be told the alternatives. And we are convinced that there are many women, if they really knew what these medications, what these devices have done to women, they would think very, very seriously of either taking the medication or agreeing to

the device. Of course, this isn't an easy time to criticise the NHS in any shape or form. But if you could point to some of the failings you've seen here, what would you say? Well, I'd say it's not just the NHS, it's the whole healthcare system. We're talking much wider than that. We're talking about the regulators, the manufacturers, the policymakers, other people involved in healthcare. And it is to actually look at the whole picture that is really, really important. But if a woman says that her medication or her treatment is causing her harm, and she believes it to be causing her harm, she must be taken seriously. Of course. Of course.

And I think women now are of a different generation from mine, where we always believed what we were told was right, but today, no. You should investigate. You should look at Google and all other sources and to see really what the truth is, because you need to make these decisions. It's your body and it should be your decision. And the ramifications for the people who've been involved for years in some cases in campaigning around these issues. What do you think they will be satisfied by in the future? Well, we are saying it is essential that they get some recompense. And

those issues have to be taken seriously. And we want three different schemes for the three different areas to give those women help that they need. And it's not just treatment, it's financial help and non-financial help. And for the future, we want a redress agency. And that agency will not be adversarial. It will not study blame. It will ensure that there is proper learning within the system of the mistakes that have been made. But will your recommendations be implemented? We will fight tooth and nail to make sure they are. Baroness Cumberledge, Mary McLaughlin is a campaigner for women injured by pelvic mesh in Ireland. Claire Pelham is chief executive of the Epilepsy Society and

both gave evidence to the Cumberledge Review. Here's Claire on those affected by the anti-epilepsy drug sodium valproate. From our perspective it's absolutely brilliant. Baroness Cumberledge has not only prescribed justice for the hundreds of thousands of women who've been harmed by Valparait, Primodos and the mesh but much more than that as she said she's had the opportunity to look at the underlying reasons why these disasters affecting hundreds of thousands of women have happened and let's be clear will continue to happen if nothing changes. But Claire it seems it's been known for ever such a long time that the sodium valproate had a high chance of causing harm in pregnant women. Why did nobody do anything about it? It's absolutely been known for four decades and it's still going on. Hundreds

of babies will be born this year to women taking Valproate who are not aware of the risk. And there's just been a complete failure of leadership in the healthcare system. The review says, and this is a staggering thing for a review of this kind to conclude, that the healthcare system does not recognise patients as its raison d'etre. So, I mean, that's just staggering. What is the point of our healthcare system if it's not to support patients? And that's a really damning finding. And I hope that the Cumberledge review will be as influential as McPherson. Just as McPherson said the police were institutionally racist and that was a trigger for change,

Cumberledge says the healthcare system is institutionally elitist and it must change. Now, Mary, I know you have been affected by pelvic mesh and have long been a campaigner on behalf of other women. What do you make of the report's findings? Well, as a mesh-injured woman, I've had my implant implanted in 2008 and had it taken out in 2019 in America. Of course, all the campaigners welcome the system-type responses, putting in place a commissioner, putting in place a task force, putting in place a commissioner, putting in place a task force, putting in place lots of institutions to ensure that the women don't fall through the net or other patients don't fall through the net. north of Ireland and from the south of Ireland. I fear that we have a real problem with these

specialist mesh centres and that they are being promoted as something that they will not deliver on. Why are they going to be a problem would you say? Because from my perspective they are old wine and new bottles. The mesh centres I I'd like to explain to the public, they're not actual buildings or centres. They're hours of clinic time within existing hospitals. And our problem is, is that the women are being sent back to the same pool of surgeons who put their mesh in, who denied they were mesh injured, and who up until very recently were not even interested in trying to remove the implants fully and safely for the women. So I think for anybody who is traumatised,

they will understand that the victims of these surgeries and these devices are being asked to go back to the same physicians who have ignored and denied them. And all these physicians belong to clinical bodies like the BAUS or BSUG and the GMC. All their members are doctors too. So we feel that these institutions in our system are just recycling doctors they already had. Claire, obviously a huge amount of trust has been broken across the years in all of these things. How easy is it going to be to rebuild trust which has been so damaged? I think the

healthcare system must use this as a trigger for change what's really needed is cultural change this is a failure of leadership and I just like to pick out the recommendation for a patient safety commissioner because I think this is absolutely critical to getting the culture right for this century. What we need is a Florence Nightingale of the 21st century, a really ballsy woman able to take on the medical establishment on behalf of patients. That's why the healthcare system is there for patients and it's about time their voice and their experience was regarded as valid. And Mary, how confident are you that this will lead to change and won't just be another review that gets shelved? I'm not confident. The government can pick and choose which recommendations it would put in place.

I am not confident that a woman going to a specialist medical centre will be able to assert her right to have her medical device removed. I'm not confident about that because the specialist medical centres that have been commissioned now in the UK, they have a new complex surgery removal specialist centres. So among that pool of surgeons who couldn't help us and were very covert about our injuries, they have now put themselves forward as mesh removal specialists. And now the women have an extra layer. They have to go through going to an MDT at their local clinic. And then only when that MDT says that they can have their mesh fully removed, can they be put to another layer, which is an MDT of the specialist complex mesh removal. Mary McLaughlin, and before Mary, you heard from Claire Pelham of the Epilepsy Society. So many powerful speakers there, of course, and so many lives adversely affected. Thank you. medication that's been prescribed to you before you've talked to your doctor. Now, over the last week or two on the programme, we've been looking at women and gaming,

the changing culture of gaming to just how much gaming can improve your mental health. The UK gaming industry isn't small fry. It is worth billions these days. And the video game sector accounts for more than half of the UK's entire entertainment market. Women make up half of those who play, and women over 40, that's among the fastest growing group of people engaging in smartphone, video or computer games. I talked on Friday to Jordan Erica Webber, presenter on The Gadget Show, host of a podcast called Talking Simulator, and the co-author of 10 Things Video Games Can Teach Us. And to Katie Good, who makes virtual reality games and runs her own company. And to Abby Plum, producer for games company Electric Square and an ambassador

for the organisation Women in Games. Here's Jordan. Video games are worth an incredible amount of money. I think it was a couple of years ago they overtook both music and movies in the UK. Video games, I think, accounts for more than half of entertainment money spent in the UK. The figures that I have from 2019 is £5.3 billion spent on games and game-related stuff that year in the UK. And games added nearly £3 billion to the UK economy as well. At the moment, the situation, particularly for young people and employment, looks, to put it mildly, difficult. And here is an area where actually there may well be jobs in the future. This is a growth area, surely.

Absolutely. I mean, one thing that lockdown has shown us is how important games are to people, especially people who are sadly out of work at the moment and who for a long time weren't able to really leave their houses. People were turning to games and not just to distract themselves, but to also keep in touch with people.

A lot of my friends and I were hanging out in video games when we couldn't hang out in real life, especially Animal Crossing. Yeah, okay. Animal Crossing. Why does that appeal to you? Oh, just i mean it's just wonderful there's something to do every day it changes with the seasons uh they listen to the community and add new features and it's just i mean it's a game about fishing and catching bugs and growing flowers and decorating house i mean what isn't there to love so it's actually it's one of the would you describe it as one of the more creative games?

I'm trying not to be gendered in my questions here, but you know what I'm getting at. Absolutely. It definitely doesn't abide by the stereotype that a lot of people have of what video games are. It's not a game where you shoot people in the face. It is a game where you hang out with your friends and you collect things and you decorate your house and you collect outfits for your wardrobe. I mean, that's the most important thing to me at the moment is growing my flowers and buying lots of dresses. OK. Katie, it's so hard to avoid stereotypes when you're having a conversation about gaming,

but I want to know about your working life and why you enjoy what you do so much. Sure. So I've been in the industry since 2008. So in this, like, grand scheme of things, it's quite a long time now. And about six years ago, my husband and I basically decided to do it alone and go and be creative at our own company. So I work now in Cornwall next to the beach with my newborn son, my husband next to my side, hiring freelancers all around the country.

And describe your working day, because that just sounds absolutely idyllic. um husband next to my side hiring freelancers all around the country and and you do describe your working day because that just sounds absolutely idyllic it can't be that good surely uh well with the nursery not being a thing at the moment it's a little bit more complicated but otherwise uh yeah it's getting up it's looking at what is existing on the market so that is sometimes playing other people's games uh but it's trying out new things ourselves, especially when it comes to VR, where it's so new. Like we're learning a whole new language again. And then doing lots of programming

and just working on interesting gameplay ideas, really. And Abby, when you were at school, how seriously did, for example, your teachers or careers advisors take a working life in the games industry, do you think? I mean, that's an interesting question for me to answer because I was homeschooled. So I didn't actually start mainstream education until I was 16. And what happened then? Well, I mean, I was fortunate enough to go to a great college. So I went to Confetti. It's in Nottingham. And it was all creative courses there. So even though at the time I was studying to work in TV and film, I was still exposed to the games industry and the opportunities of going to work in the games industry. I know that's not the case for everybody. but for me personally, I had positive exposure to it from quite a young age. And it wasn't a world that you were frightened of. You wouldn't have

felt intimidated by any aspect of it. No, no, I didn't. But I think because I was, again, in an environment where I got to see what went into the behind the scenes of making games, and I got to see what went into the behind the scenes of making games. And I got to talk to people who were training and studying to work in the industry. It did not seem intimidating. But again, I know I'm fortunate to have had that experience. I think if you have been in a position where you've not been exposed to it, it seems much scarier than it actually is. But it's a very, very welcoming industry as soon as you sort of do get a peek behind the curtain yeah it's interesting that you say it's welcoming because you all three of you know that uh there are there have been allegations about the treatment of women in this environment

katie have you ever come up against well something worse than being discouraged let me put it that way definitely uh it's got better as i've been in industry but my first job uh i did experience a very like i guess women they womanizers i experienced literally a stalker um and like even when i went to show off my game at an American Games event, someone literally didn't believe I made it. They were like, oh, you're just the booth babe. What does that mean? When you have a very attractive, busty-looking woman showing off, say, a racing car,

they could sort of pour themselves over it. They did the same thing in games for quite a while. And that, I'm afraid, Jordan, is the image that those of us who don't know much about the world probably have of it. Now, what are we supposed to think? Yeah, I mean, the games industry has a lot to answer for historically because of kind of where it came from and how it's grown and its relative age compared to other industries. I mean, we have been around for a while now. And I think the thing to learn from the fact that all these stories are coming out is that it means that the games industry is reckoning with itself and with that history and change is

happening. I mean, with the recent Me Too allegations, people have been trying to come forward with this kind of thing for years, and they haven't really been listened to as much as they are now. This year, companies are actually listening to women and to non-binary people and gender minorities who are coming forward with these stories. And they're acting, which is really important, because that wouldn't have happened a few years ago. No, so you're taking heart from it, if anything. And of course, we've got to be honest about it, radio and television and the film industry, every part of the creative sector has issues of this nature, doesn't it?

Absolutely. And I think that reflects, unfortunately, the disparity between kind of how many women are in these industries compared to how many men there are. So recently, Yuki and the University of Sheffield did this diversity industry census where they tried to figure out what proportion of the industry was, I mean sorts of different things what class background what race what gender what sexuality and they found that about 28 percent of people working in the UK games industry are women and that is exactly the same as the figure for film and television and radio funnily enough. Yeah that is I mean Abby is interesting and in fact I think Abby and Jordan you both live and work in Leamington Spa.

Abby, tell me about that. So I work for Electric Square here in Leamington Spa. It's a new branch of Electric Square. We have a studio in Brighton and we have a studio in Singapore. I've been working in the games industry in Leamington for a year now. So I did work at another studio here previously. So I was at Lab 42 Games. Leamington's fantastic. It's got such a great community of people here that do work in games.

One of the best decisions of my life was moving to Leamington to continue my career in games because I've met so many wonderful people here. And Jordan, you are there as well, aren't you? Yes, absolutely. I moved here about a decade ago to go to university at Warwick and then never wanted to leave again. There is such a thriving gaming community here. So let's hear it for Leamington Spa and indeed for Cornwall, which is where Katie is doing her work as well. So it's a really good illustration that you can be big in gaming and enjoy your work and you don't necessarily have to be anywhere specific. Like London, for example, just plucking a location at random there. Please do keep in touch with the programme, particularly during lockdown.

I know that it has become very significant to many of you, particularly those of you listening outside the UK, and we love to hear from you as well. bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. You can always tell us what's going on in your lives. Now, there was a big reaction this week to what it was like to be a motherless daughter. How does a daughter whose mother died when she was very young navigate the really big moments in her life without a mother around? I'm thinking your first job,, engagement. Angela Mutanda is a psychologist. Emma Winterschladen's mother, Jenny, died when Emma was just 16. So how did she cope with grief at the loss of a mum at that age? very well to be honest I sort of put it in a box and thought because I had such little control over the fact she died I remember thinking rather stubbornly right as I go forward in my life I

can't let this uh ruin my life and I think for that reason actually that was a big thing that when I did go forward I just didn't think about it um really only a few years ago. And what happened two years ago to make you really think about it? Moving to London after university and renting my first house and getting my first job, as I started ticking off all these different milestones, I think I came to a stage where I was far enough away from it to really just start sitting with my grief and looking it in the eye, I guess, when it wasn't maybe so raw. What do you mean by looking it in the eye? I was getting caught off guard by it.

And I think that was because I hadn't really given myself the space to grieve mum. And really, when I say look in the eye, it was to be able to create space in my days for mum to come into them in ways that didn't sort of hijack me. And that was a lot, I mean, a lot through my work, actually, my writing and my illustrating. That was a real way that I was able to not take control of it, but sit with the grief and really think about mum in a way that maybe I hadn't ever let myself do in the over the past decade or so and Jule but we're talking about mothers and daughters here but how does the sex of the parent and child influence a child's response to grief I think actually very much depends on the child's relationship with that parent. I mean,

I think, you know, in the past, who socializes the child most has usually been, you know, the primary caregiver has been mum, but they are mums and, sorry, daughters and fathers who have a very strong bond as well. So it very much depends on the quality of that relationship. And I think what Emma's described absolutely beautifully is how the death of a parent can have a huge impact at any point in your life. And when you try and compartmentalize it, to just get on with it, to have some sense of control over your life, it just keeps coming up at key moments. So, Emma, do they still keep coming up, these moments? As you go through life, do they still keep hitting you? I think for me, there's never a time that mum isn't in my day.

But that isn't to say that it catches me off guard as much. But, you know, very recently, in fact, within the last month, I got engaged. And after the weekend of emoji filled WhatsApps and social distance barbecues, I found myself actually sitting on a Monday evening and it really, really hit me. And I just, you know, quite simply, I just really missed mum. And I had to let myself sit with that in a way that I wouldn't have let myself do that. And it was actually really beautiful in a way, and it seems weird to talk about grief in that way,

but actually I've realised that I had to sit with the memories of her and to be able to sort of enjoy the memories I've got of her. How much does being a writer and an illustrator help you to keep in touch with memories of your mother? I mean, how much do you write about them? How much do you draw them? I mean, it's a huge part. I've just gone freelance, actually, really,

to focus on that part of my work. But it's a huge part. I've just gone freelance, actually, really to focus on that part of my work. But it's a private thing as well. You know, I've written diaries on and off over the years. And that's a really important thing for processing. It's very healing for me. But actually then crafting it and putting it out there, it's a way to remember mum. It's a way to relive memories of mum, actually, because she's very tactile and very affectionate. And just being able to write that and draw memories, actually moments that I can't have with mum anymore, I find that really healing to be able to illustrate moments

that I'll never have with mum, and I can almost recreate them through my work. So there's that side of it as well. You know, it's the remembering, but it's also connecting. What would have been her response, Emma, to your engagement? She would have been absolutely just beside herself, thrilled. I did think about the what-ifs, and she would have been the first person I FaceTimed.

And she would have squealed, probably, and wanted all the juicy details. She probably would have fancied my husband husband to be as well i'm sure oh really that sounds dangerous very handsome and she would have admitted to it my gran did would she have admitted to fancying him or kept it to herself oh yeah she would have said oh he's very handsome that's what my mum's mum who died not that long ago, that's one of the things she said when she met him. She said, oh, if I was 50 years younger, Emma, he's lovely. And it's just quite nice to think about the sort of gossiping and having a cup of tea with her.

And in a way, I wasn't able to because she died when I was 16. So we never got to have that mother daughter friendship. It never evolved to that stage. Angela, what effect do you find grief can have on memories? I mean, Emma clearly now is really enjoying the idea of thinking she might have had a time to gossip with her mum. Yeah, I mean, I think what Emma's described beautifully is how she's moved on in her grief process and she's worked through it and she's also accepted it but is also you know planning towards the future but wanting to

embrace the memory of her mum and that is a profound loss and there have been some studies which show that those who've lost somebody who's incredibly close to them, do suffer from short-term memory loss because you are consumed by that grief. You're almost flooded by that loss, and emotions are intensified. And when you get into complicated, complex grief, some people can only focus on the person they've lost, and there's no room for creating new memories. And I think this

is where people need support and the permission to talk about that loved one and work through those complex emotions. And for each person, we're going to experience grief very, very differently. For some people, it will, you know, be emotional, some physical, some there'll be changes in their social behaviour. So it's about getting the right quality of support so that you can work through all those very complex feelings that arise when you've lost someone you love so much. Angela Mutanda and before that Emma Winterschladen. And here's an email from Claire. We did have a lot of emails on this subject, but this is from Claire. I lost my mother when I was 13, and that's now 50 years ago. I still miss her and I still celebrate her and she's part of my life. I always talk to my son about her. She

was a singer, actually, so we have her records and we can listen to her voice. It also meant I've never had a mother-daughter relationship and I find them hard to understand with my friends and their mothers. I always say I never had a blueprint as to what a mother should be when I grew up. I so understand everything that was said this morning. Time doesn't heal but it does help you to learn to live with the loss. Claire, thank you for that. And to Julia, my mum died just before my O levels. I'm going to be 65 soon and I would love to speak to her still. I really missed having her support and her interest in my life. She was warm and funny and I loved her to bits. I would have loved her to be part of my children's lives as well. Ten weeks ago, my youngest daughter had a baby son, Eric.

I was delighted to have her near during her pregnancy and I loved sharing her progress. When she and her husband went into hospital in lockdown for the birth, it was really stressful. Her husband sent her a WhatsApp photo of her and the baby when he was born and it was quite overwhelming. I stayed at their home to help for four weeks and it was a wonderful time. So nice to be there for her and her family. I realised how much I'd missed

when I had my own children and how lucky I am to be able to share in my daughter's baby. I am so enjoying being with him and seeing him grow. He's smiley, alert and adorable and I'm just so sad still that my own mum couldn't share in my children. I will treasure my grandson's childhood. I hadn't realised how intensely I'd feel and how much I would miss my mother at this time. Julia, that is that is lovely. And I imagine, again, that so many people will relate all too well to what you've just said there. So our best wishes to you and to your daughter and son-in-law and welcome to baby Eric as well. Now, I know a lot of people have been enjoying reading in lockdown. Initially, I think a lot of people said they were struggling with fiction, but I don't know about you.

I've come round to it now. Perhaps it's just my desperation to escape from reality. Here's a book I really enjoyed, Small Pleasures by Claire Chambers. It was sparked, in fact, by an item Claire heard on Woman's Hour back in 2001. Here she is telling me about it. I was listening sort of in that casual way you do when you're doing something else. Can you not say that, by the way, Claire? Because I imagine that people just sit completely still and listen to every single word at the radio preferably yeah I would think I was doing something else and half listening

and I became aware that I was listening to this extraordinary story of this this woman who'd claimed to have a virgin birth and had had a really kind of solid um story to tell about it which seemed seemed highly plausible and the investigation that went into it where in fact they they couldn't really disprove her story and i remember thinking that this this would make a really good novel and i i left it sort of hanging up in my mind like a piece of fly paper hoping other things would stick to it yeah um but it it struck me that it might it might not be a funny story and at the time i was writing what I considered romantic comedy. And I just felt this might have a darker edge to it and might not be something that I could tell.

Well, I'm going to delight the audience now by playing a little clip from Woman's Hour. But just to put it into context, this was a feature broadcast on this programme back in 2001. It was about something that had happened in 1955 when the newspaper The Sunday Pictorial launched an appeal asking for stories of women who believed they might have had a virgin birth. And that was because there had been a flurry of interest in the subject after scientific research into reproduction in animals and plants. Now, a load of women came forward to The Sunday Pictorial in the 50s and they were questioned and rejected. But one woman, a German lady called Emma Marie Jones, Emmy Marie Jones, was convincing. And the journalist Audrey Whiting was covering the story. Now, this clip is from the feature that Woman's Hour did in 2001. Finally, it came down to Mrs Jones and her daughter and they were subjected to again very

very close examination, cross-examination almost you know. Did they tell any lies or was the mother exaggerating? I went to Hereford to her home but she was a delightful person. Mrs Jones gave her account of the pregnancy to the newspaper. For a long time I'd been suffering from a chronic form of rheumatism and I put it all down to that. So I decided that the best thing would be to go and ask a doctor for a tonic. The doctor told me, I'm not surprised you feel you need a tonic. The fact is, you are three months pregnant.

For a moment I just smiled at the doctor. I was sure he had made a stupid mistake. I told him, you must be wrong. I simply cannot be pregnant. Three months ago, I was in hospital. In any case, there has been no opportunity, so it can't possibly be true. Now, apart from everything else,

there were no male doctors at all. It was, as she said, staffed by all women. And she said when she was in hospital, apart from anything else, even if she wanted to have sex with anybody, she couldn't because of her rheumatism, she just ached all over. And so I remember saying to me something like, you know, it's almost as though it's a child of God. Claire, I'm not surprised that, to put it mildly, piqued your interest. It's got everything there, hasn't it? The central character in your book is a journalist then, a woman called Jean

Swinney. Now, tell us about Jean and the life she's obliged to lead in the 1950s. Well, I thought I should tell this story from the point of view of the person who's who's researching it and um she's she's her predicament is that she's living with a rather needy what you might call a sort of social agoraphobic mother of course her mother's condition is never diagnosed and certainly not treated it's just regarded as one of those sort of quirks of human nature which is infinitely weird and various and nothing can be done about it. So she's sort of stuck living with this needy mother. Her only sister has managed to escape this fate by getting married. It was a case of whichever sister marries first will escape and the other one won't.

And Jean is the one who's left behind. But it's a sort of soft imprisonment because she's not housebound with her mother. She's allowed to go out to work and that's fine. But it's almost as if going out to work has used up all her credit and there's none left over for a social life. So every time she wants to do anything fun, this has to be negotiated and sort of her mother has to be manipulated into accepting her absence for five minutes. It's an incredibly claustrophobic existence, and of course one which many women of the time, and indeed today, are obliged to lead with caring responsibilities of one sort or another.

She is the journalist who goes on the trail of the supposed virgin birth, and in doing so she comes across the Tilbury's, and a woman called Gretchen, who is indeed a German lady, who feels she may have had a virgin birth and in doing so she comes across the Tilbury's and a woman called Gretchen who is indeed a German lady who feels she may have had a virgin birth. Yes and so Jean's remit is to is to investigate the story and but in doing so unfortunately she becomes rather enamoured of the Tilbury's and rather attracted to Gretchen and her lovely daughter and her husband. And so her investigation becomes somewhat compromised by her natural inclination to believe Gretchen and to want to sort of help to prove her case. And she gets sort of entangled

in their life. But it's really about the miracle that happens to Jean. So the ostensible miracle of the virgin birth is somewhat overtaken by this miraculous blowing apart of Jean's limited and confined life as she discovers friendship and love and maternal feelings at perhaps the 11th hour. Yes, I mean, that's what I loved about it. It was also, let's be clear about this, a love story between people who aren't usually the leading players in love stories. No, I wanted it to be about people who are unfashionable and unglamorous and unattractive, but those people still feel, you know, sexual passion and attraction just like everyone else. And I just wanted to make that as true and as moving and as real as possible.

I should say it is also a bit creepy that the scenes set in a sanatorium, for example, which is where Gretchen was when she believed that she became pregnant. There's a lot going on here. And I really found it incredibly absorbing, as I do hope I've made clear. So I also just want to squeeze in a quick reference to the fact, Claire, that you've been writing for a very long time, and at one point you might have been somewhat discouraged, but this book has had fantastic reviews, and you must be really, really pleased with it. Yeah, I'm really excited about the reception it's had, and it gives me great hope to think for other writers who may feel that they've been a bit in the publishing wilderness or writers who are not

yet published and think oh the publishing industry is only interested in young people and celebrities and the new um but in fact i was really encouraged that that um several publishers looked beyond my rather um what's what's the word, not stellar sales record. Don't be hard on yourself. And just sort of took to the novel and thought, well, we really like this novel and we want to publish it. Well, I'm not surprised they like it. I liked it too. Small Pleasures is the title of Claire Chambers' book. And if you are a reader, Dorothy Coombson, who's written any number of bestsellers,

is one of my guests on Monday morning. Her new novel is All My Lies Are True, a sequel, that one, to The Ice Cream Girls. Now to another winner, Abigail Magorle. She's 20. She's just finished her second year at Leeds University. And she's the winner of the Art Society's National Isolation Artwork Competition.

Her winning entry was a self-portrait called Brewing. It depicts from quite a high, kind of like bird's eye view angle, me with a cup of tea, relaxing in quite a thick kind of bubble bath. So I think painting myself was definitely a very daunting task. It's not something that I do. I think it's one of the first self-portraits I've ever kind of approached. And it's a very intimate, very kind of like personal scene, somewhere where I've retreated within lockdown for my kind of home comforts.

So not only am I the focus of this piece, I'm inviting people into this kind of comfortable space and allowing people to be part of that very personal experience. So self-portraits are not something you would normally do? No, I think it's something I'd definitely do going forward. I think that I was very uncomfortable with the idea at first, but I had to kind of build that comfort up through the levels so first I had to be comfortable with kind of being photographed in the position at first and then being comfortable like analysing myself because you build a very personal relationship with your with the kind of subject of your work when you're painting it and so I had to be very comfortable with analysing

the kind of details of my own form and then I had to be comfortable with having that moment shared with quite a large and broad audience, which is, it's definitely built up. And I can now say that I would happily have it kind of spread everywhere now, which it obviously is. I'm just looking at it. It feels very odd to be talking to somebody who's self-portrait. I'm looking at it at the same time. But anyway, the expression on your face is sort of unreadable. I've got to be talking to somebody who's self-portrait I'm looking at at the same time but anyway um the expression on your face is sort of unreadable I've got to be honest it's um it's

brilliantly enigmatic it's I'm someone who perhaps like yourself takes comfort in baths I mean if I'm having a bad day I call them two bath days and I might have one in the morning and then one later is that is that something you felt you had to do more of in lockdown I wouldn't say I had to do more of it's something I do regularly anyway I really enjoy a bath I kind of like them more over showers and especially with a nice hot cup of tea it kind of just like makes a kind of perfect experience and I do see where you're coming from I do think that you have to kind of look for those little comforts especially when you're isolated in your home especially when have to kind of look for those little comforts especially when you're isolated in your home especially when you've kind of got really small parameters that escape is

definitely necessary and it's definitely something that I've needed but to be fair I think the experience of lockdown itself has kind of made me realize how much of a hermit I actually am so I you mean it suits you yes the the change in my lifestyle it hasn't been that dramatic so the baths have kind of just been steadily as you as you go really but um definitely it's something that I will be doing regularly as I continue through the lockdown I don't know how someone like you who's put so much of herself into a piece of work can bear to let it go. Does it not hurt you to let go of something like this? Do you want to sell this?

I do. I think when you put so much time and effort into a piece and you've spent so many hours kind of staring at it, it becomes something different. So people will look at it in a different way to the way I do. I see it as very much completed I'm ready for it to kind of leave. How many hours of work is actually involved in something like this? It's a lot I'm not gonna lie. Well I just haven't got a clue 40, 45? I can't even kind of guess I think it's more but I kind of get lost in the hours to be fair um i don't really time it especially with pieces that aren't commissions where you kind of don't judge it like that but i would definitely say it's a good month's worth of work is that your dog um just trying

yes he's he's getting really stressed out on me i don't know know why. What's the name? He's called Austin. He's a little corgi. Oh, corgi. Yeah. Very regal. He's trying to get my attention. We never did find out why Oscar needed Abigail's attention, but it may be better not to know.

We very much hope you can see that self-portrait brewing, which I really, really like, on the Woman's Hour Twitter feed. At BBC Woman's Hour is where you need to go if you'd like to see it. And congratulations to Abigail. On Monday morning's programme, join me live, three minutes past ten,

best-selling novelist Dorothy Coombson's on the programme. We'll talk too about the United Arab Emirates, who are planning a female-dominated expedition to Mars, and we'll talk about the way we judge female offenders. Monday morning, join us then. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.