Woman's Hour - The double discrimination faced by black parents with autistic children

Episode Date: February 1, 2020

The double discrimination faced by black parents with autistic children. Damaging relationships - why do we so often repeat the same patterns of behaviour?Forestry England's writer in residence. Plus Marion Dunn who took up boxing for fitness in her 50's. The campaign to reform the disclosure of criminal records. And Gwyneth Paltrow and her Goop Lab - why are so many of us so keen on advice and products that are not backed up by any scientific research?Producer Olivia Cope Editor Beverley PurcellGuest; Pam Aculey Guest; Venessa Bobb Guest; Marion Dunn Guest; Leigh Hardy Guest; Rachel Tynan Guest; Zakiya McKenzie Guest; Louise Tickle Guest; Jenny Beck Guest; Penny Guest; Prof Tali Sharot Guest; Dr Anjali Mahto Guest; Anne-marie Lodge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon. In today's programme, following our series of interviews with women who found themselves in damaging relationships, why do we so often repeat the same patterns and what makes a safe and satisfying coupling? Forestry England's writer in residence, what's the pleasure of the dark and sometimes threatening wood? And Marion Darn who took up boxing for fitness when she was 50 and

demonstrates how to throw the perfect punch. Boxing when executed properly is a bit like a dance. You know the object of the exercise in a good amateur gym is not to pulverise your opponent at all, it's to outwit them. And it's really, I would think, akin to dancing. A campaign to reform the disclosure of criminal records. Why is it necessary to reveal that a 52-year-old woman was convicted for benefit fraud when she was only 19. The beauty and wellness industry, why do so many of us buy into products and treatments that have no scientific research to back up their effectiveness? And the double discrimination faced by black parents with a child who has autism. Pam is black and her husband is white. I think after the third time of going back I told Alex

you go on your own please and you speak to health professionals and we had completely different experiences. It's rare for the family courts to be exposed to public view but an important written judgment has been published in the family division of the High Court. It's become known as the Tolson Judgment because Judge Robin Tolson had said earlier that a woman who was appealing for a new hearing in a child custody case would not succeed because her claim that her former partner had raped her was not true because she had taken no physical steps to stop him. Well, Ms Justice Russell overturned his decision and criticised Tolson for his outdated ideas of what constitutes consent. It was also argued that

family court judges who deal regularly with allegations of sexual assault and domestic violence should do the same training as judges trying these charges in the criminal courts. Well, Jane spoke to Jenny Beck, the director of Beck Fitzgerald Solicitors, and Louise Tickle, a journalist who specialises in social affairs and family law. They spoke about the issues in frank detail.

How significant is this judgment? The judgment's very significant. The number of mistakes that were made, both in terms of the law and in terms of following the rules that we have to protect vulnerable people going through the family court process, make it a very significant judgment. Unfortunately, it isn't an isolated case. How do you know that? I'm a practitioner. I work at the Coalface every day. I specialise in abuse cases and I see many tens of them on a weekly basis. And where does it start to go wrong? In terms of this particular practice, it's peppered with both legal mistakes and

mistakes in terms of following the rules. And I think it's really important to understand that this case is quite sensationalist because of some of the very gruesome detail but also the very basic rules about how we protect people so that they can give good evidence within the courtroom and how we look after victims so that they can follow a fair process. I just want to know from you, is what happened here not typical? I would hope it wasn't. What would you say about that?

Well, apart from anything else, there's a lot of anecdote about this because, of course, there's no transparency in the family courts for several reasons, many of which are very good. But it means that it's very difficult to get a clear picture. And I certainly hear that there are some very good judges out there who follow the practice direction rules to the letter. There are also some very poor areas of practice which need a lot of work in order to protect vulnerable women and families. Louise, I read some of the written judgment yesterday and I have to say it contains

some horrendous details, some very explicit details of evidence that the judge, Judge Tolson, had dismissed. Can you tell us a little bit about that? The judge seemed to decide that this woman's evidence was of no value. And I think a really good but graphic example of that is where her former partner texted her during the course of the hearing to say, and this is a quote that the judge, the appeal judge, wrote in her judgment, if you don't shut up, I will stick my cock in your ass. And Judge Tolson decided that that was simply a matter of texting. He didn't take any account of how intimidating it was, how threatening it was, or in fact, that it could possibly speak to the fact that this woman was alleging sexual assault and rape. Yes, it's the fact that that happened within the context of

these events. It is frankly mind-blowing that the judge reacted in that way, isn't it? Well, my mind was blown as I read the judgment. I felt really distressed and I think what we have to keep at the forefront of our mind is that this case affects a highly vulnerable, very traumatised woman who met this man when she was very young, who had a child with him and it's a matter of public record. This man has convictions for battery against former girlfriends. And she was trying to keep her child safe when this man made applications to be able to see him

after she had left him. You know, she'd fled to a refuge and so on. She is now going to have to go through the trauma of another trial. It was incredibly courageous of her to have taken this to appeal. I am contacted on an almost daily basis now by women who say that they have been dealt with poorly in family courts with regard to their allegations of domestic abuse and sexual assault. It is a high bar to go to appeal. It is very difficult to get permission. Once you go, it's really stressful. And so we need to remember that this woman has done everybody a huge service.

Well, credit to her. And as you say, I'm glad you mentioned her courage because it's very significant. If I felt anything actually reading this, Jenny, it was just an astonishing naivety. I honestly didn't know things were this bad. I suppose I thought things had got better. You obviously were not as shocked as me. Actually, I was shocked at this judgment. And I would encourage everybody to read it because it is public

and it is absolutely shocking. And it's really important the lessons are learned from it. And there is a review going on at the moment of the way in which the process works, which needs to be far reaching. There also needs to be some immediate steps taken to make sure that we stick a plaster over the current process and afford people the opportunity of giving their evidence properly. This woman wasn't allowed even the basic screens in place to protect her. Yeah, this is we should make clear this is the family court. Things happen differently in the family courts. And as you've already said, it's usually not reported at all for a string of good reasons.

Why did the judge not allow her to be protected? I can't answer that question because I don't know, because we've got the appeal and not the original judge's decision making with us. But there was a decision that she should sit, rather than behind a screen or giving her evidence by video link, she should sit on the same bench that the barristers sit on, which effectively, and she was a traumatised victim anyway, probably because of the abuse she suffered. So that made it very difficult for her to give her evidence.

And in fact, the judge noted that he hadn't actually heard her and yet still chose to rely on the evidence which of course was not at its best because she was in trauma she couldn't of course give proper evidence. Yes I think that was what I also found astonishing Louise the fact that the judge didn't take into consideration just how traumatized this woman was. Well it is astonishing and you know this is what I hear virtually every day from people who contact me. Now, the thing that Jenny has mentioned is that, you know, there is no transparency in our family court system. So the rules changed about a decade ago so that journalists

could go and sit in court. But while I have done that, gone and sat in court, I'm not allowed to report anything of the detail of what I see going on in front of me. And the sanctions are very stiff. I could be jailed or I could be fined. And that means the editors are very reluctant to commission you to go and do this because you'll go to court and you won't be able to write what you see. And yet, you know, while I have seen fact-finding with extremely good practice, I have also been to fact-finding in a domestic abuse case where I emerged from court extremely concerned about the judicial attitude to what did and didn't constitute consent and rape.

And that is really worrying to me, that I can see it, but I'm not allowed to say it. Louise Tickle and Jenny Beck. If you've been listening during the past couple of weeks, you'll have heard four women discussing relationships, which they can now look back on and see how unpleasant and often destructive they were. They spoke to Millie Chowles,

and in a moment we'll discuss why we might continue to form relations that do us harm and how best to get involved with men or women who will satisfy us and make us feel safe. Here's a reminder of what we heard from Nina, Joe, Sadie and Katie. I think a lot of the time I have been drawn massively to people who are slightly broken or lost lambs. And it's because of how I'd grown up and I'd not really

been in a very supportive house when I was little and my parents weren't very well and that was all I knew that's your first understanding of of care and of love if it's bad if it's traumatic that kind of understanding stays with you throughout your whole life and you play out your understanding of love and care in all of your relationships as well. quickly came into my life she was very in love with me very very quickly and I felt like I was the one putting the brakes on so yeah I think there was a voice already saying oh I'm not sure quite controlling quite a lot of duplicity again you know choosing quite an unwell person to be in relationship with again excitement compelling and that feeling of being needed and and and also you know I take responsibility for for choosing partners who were never going to necessarily provide stability that I needed you know there was an avoidance within me I believe

so it wasn't all their fault you know we really got on and straight away I could tell there was something between us and we ended up sleeping together it was all the same stuff again basically of blowing hot and cold like we started sleeping together and then the next week we'd go out and he'd like snog a girl in front of me and by this point I felt so depressed because it was like I was stuck in this cycle and every time I'd go into the cycle it was worse and worse and it was like all the cracks in my mind of all these years of kind of self-loathing suddenly became like not a crack, but like a hole.

The thing is, with all of these guys, it wasn't one event. It was like a death by a thousand cuts, you know? So how can that kind of pain be best avoided, and how can we recognise the possibility of a good, strong relationship? Simon Bowes is a counsellor who works with Relate. Penny Mansfield is one of the directors of One Plus One. Penny, listening to those women, what do you make of what they had to say?

Well, I think they were being very, obviously, reflective and many people don't have opportunities to reflect, which I think people who, I don't know whether, you know, if you've got a chance to actually talk to other people or to have some kind of therapeutic intervention, you begin to see your behaviour in a relationship and the behaviour of the other person in a slightly different way. But in the end, that is what relationships are about.

They are an interaction between two people. We seek out and we stay with people for all sorts of reasons, some of which are quite hidden to us that become more apparent. And sometimes because we genuinely feel that they're going to make things better for us and we're going to make better things for them. How common is it, Simone, to hear those kind of stories in counselling sessions? It's incredibly common. In fact, I feel like I'm hearing my clients as I hear them.

You know, people come in and it's amazing how... When I heard those ladies, they are people that have learnt about themselves and before that they probably didn't understand how why they were functioning like that they're wondering why do I do these things why do I why am I drawn to these types of people and I think when you have a space to reflect and you understand your psychology and your internal working model from your childhood and your upbringing and the patterns that you've seen all your life and experienced all your life,

then you sort of understand what you're repeating in a sense. What do you find, Penny, in your research about people making and staying in damaging relations? How often does that happen? Well, I think it's fair enough to say that if you have had quite a difficult childhood and experience, it will form your sense of what it is to be needed and to be loved. And therefore you may find yourself attracted to people who your friends might think, why on earth is she interested in him or doesn't she see that? And I think that comes out beautifully in some of the sort of, well, lots of novels, but I think some of the more recent novels that are coming out, which young people are reading, it's actually recognising that part of the relationships we form in our kind of young adult years are actually finding

out about ourself in relationships. So they may not last, and they are instructional if, in a sense, we can reflect on them and we can learn from them. So it's not a case of, well, I've been out with four people and I ended up not having a relationship with any of them. That's not a failure. That is how you learn about relationships. But why, Simone, do so many people seem to repeat the same pattern?

It's because in some way it feels safe to them. Even though it's not good for them, it's familiar and it's what they know. And it may be what they feel they deserve or, you know, they may have self-esteem or self-worth issues or perhaps there could be shame in some ways. And that's what they feel like is right for them um and they can also be drawn to people who are also fulfilling a part of themselves i heard one of the ladies say that um you know to fill those holes that i have you're looking

sometimes for somebody who can fulfill that part of yourself that doesn't feel whole. Relationships are not easy. I mean, they can be very hard, I think, for most of us. What's known about which ones survive and which don't? Well, I think the point is if you live with another person, there are always going to be problems. The problems you create, the problems they create, and you have to work that out. and there is a creativity to relationships and if you look at interviews with people who've

been in a relationship for a very long time you will find there were periods when they might thought shall i stay or shall i go is it good enough to stay bad enough to go and then times when they actually felt that they were pleased that they'd stayed. And what I think people can learn is really how to do things together. So, for example, there's an approach looking at how people who have, well, the research shows that their relationships are stronger because when they're under stress, they can actually share the experiences they have. They might be different, but they can actually talk to each other. And so it's termed a kind of sense of we stress,

how they deal with it together. What tends to turn people away from each other is when they struggle with something on their own and then they don't share it and then the relationship becomes dissatisfying on both sides. We talk a lot about sex education, but not so much about relationship education. What should children be taught about this?

Well, I think we've got a great opportunity with the new relationship sex education curriculum coming in is to be able to work with young people on their skills in relationships, their skills at being able to express themselves, to listen well to others, to manage difficult situations, to manage conflict. And the interviews with the four women can be found in full on BBC Sounds. There were a thousand applicants when the Forestry Commission advertised for a writer

in residence to write about woodland life for its centenary year. The commission was hoping to change the tradition that writing about conservation and nature has been overwhelmingly white and male, so it's not surprising that Zakia McKenzie got the job. Jane asked her what a forestry writer-in-residence actually does. I spent a lot of time meandering through the forest and writing about it, reflecting on it very simply. That really was it, just spending lots of time immersed in the woods and enjoying it, feeling a lot of different things and then going back and reflecting on it. Some of it was written in the forest itself, a lot of, and then I had a

lot of it that was written at home, kind of after reflecting. This is your poetry or prose? Yeah, poetry prose. There's a bit of journalism in it. So my collection is out now of, you know, my collection from the forests. And it is a mix, which I didn't expect. So it's a mix of poetry prose and a bit of kind of personal essay. We'll talk more about that in a moment, but a little bit more about yourself. You were born in Britain, and then you grew up in Jamaica. Yes. Now whereabouts in Jamaica? Kingston. So in town, city, you know, city girl in Kingston. But when I originally moved back to Jamaica, so I was a baby. I am the baby of the family and I was still a baby at the time. I imagine my parents probably didn't have a big social circle in Jamaica at the time.

So we would go every weekend to the countryside to my grandmother's where all of us had our first set of friends in the country. And so that's where I spent a lot of my time as a youngster as well. So living in town, but lots of time in the country. And in forests? So it's different. It's in the hills. It was in a mountain. So in a way, it's not a forest as you think about it here. I'm always very keen to say it is not woodland. It's not woods as we see in England.

So they are kind of different type of sites. So we have a lot of tropical rainforest environment. And so where I was at kind of the foothills of the Blue Mountains, which is the highest point in the island, it was a bit of tropical rainforest. Getting a job like the one you have now, it's actually not easy to do, is it? I know you applied not really knowing how many other people had applied and you were pretty amazed to get it. Absolutely. I think if I, if I knew, you know, I keep saying my naivety worked for me because I didn't really know the scale. Yeah. Sometimes naivety is a me because I didn't really know the scale.

Yeah. Sometimes naivety is a good thing. Yeah, because if I had known that it was such a sought after position, I might not have. I probably just would have thought, no, no, no, no. You know, there's no point. So what prompted you to have a go? So I think, first of all, one of my co-workers sent it to me. So Tamsin, my co-worker, sent it to me. And I think quite often, you know, if people believe in me, I might think, oh, why not? I'll give it a try.

And so I thought it was just something different. And to be honest, I wanted to explore the English landscape. And I thought this was a really neat way to do it. And why is it? And I don't think this is a generalization. I think it's a fact. But please correct me that we don't associate exactly that with people of colour? So, you know, I think there are a few different reasons. One is, you know, there is the fact that you don't have that many black people or brown people going into the forest. Now, there are reasons for that. And I would say, with a lot of the work that I do, we actually, when we bring people out, we see that they really do love it. And so quite

often it is facilitating it. So people might not want to go by themselves. You know, they might need a group to go in. So we have these group trips. But also, I think for a lot of people who live in the city and, you know, a lot of black people live in the cities, Afro-Caribbean people, you know, BME people live in the cities. The countryside is quiet and lonely and scary. It can be. And, you know, I mean, I experienced that myself. Sometimes it was just way too quiet. And I'm a person who can appreciate it.

But sometimes it was too quiet. You're based in Bristol, aren't you? I am. Yeah, which is quite close to any number of wonderful locations. Tell me about, it's the Forest of Dean, I think, that has sort of grabbed you. Yes. Yeah. So I really love, you know, I keep speaking about the Forest of Dean I think that has sort of grabbed you yes yes so I really love you know I keep speaking about the Forest of Dean I really love it so the Forest of Dean is or was what was called a working forest so there was a lot there were a lot of people living there who

worked you know in the coal mine in the in the coal mines kind of there were a lot of industry there and I think for that reason there's a lot of history that you can get from people who live and work there and for me that's where a lot of the richness came and there's a lot of storytelling folk tales you know the origins of the wild boar that still plague the you know the forest of dee right there's so many stories in there that kind of really drew me in and I ended up you know finding a lot of things to write about from the Forest of Dean. And a lot of people these days talk about mindfulness and actually, even if you know nothing about it, who doesn't get solace from just looking at a tree and just acknowledging how long it's been there and all the things that have happened whilst it has been alive?

Yes, I mean, absolutely. For me, that was, you know, it was really refreshing to be kind of in the middle of these forests and have, you know, the experience of being able to be and not have anything to look, you know, anyone looking to me for anything.

Because I think in the middle of these forests quite often, you forget that you have a life back in the city and you have things to rush towards. And it was very grounding for me to be in these spaces and I think for a lot of people as well to be out and kind of have the you know the feeling of being refreshed and and recuperate in in the forest it's not always like that and it wasn't always like that for me as well but it was a part of my experience and you can watch Zakir in action on Inside Out West.

That's of course on the BBC iPlayer. Still to come in today's programme, Gwyneth Paltrow and her goop lab. Why are so many people drawn to beauty treatments that may have no scientific approval? The double discrimination faced by the parents of black children with autism. And Marion Dunn, who took up boxing in her 50s and demonstrates how to throw the perfect punch. And a reminder that if you can't always listen to the live programme at two minutes past ten during the week, you can subscribe to the Daily Podcast and all you have to do is find it on BBC Sounds. Now they used to be known as CRB Checks, Criminal Record Bureau. They're now DBS Checks, requiring the disclosure of criminal records

for anyone applying for a job working in childcare or caring for the vulnerable or the elderly. But two charities, Unlock and Transform Justice, are calling for reform of the system. The campaign is called Hashtag Fair Checks because it's argued that a minor crime, perhaps committed as a teenager, should not prevent a mature adult from finding work. Rachel Tynan is the policy and practice head for Unlock. Emma was 17 when she was involved in a fight. She's now 29. Lee Hardy was involved in benefit fraud when she was 19 and she's now 52. What happened all those years ago? I was a student in my first year at Polytechnic and it was summer and I had a part-time job in a pub and my flatmate was going away travelling so she asked

me to take her extra shifts which I did. I had been working about 10 hours a week and I was claiming supplementary benefit at the time, it was summertime and I took the extra shift and that took me over the limit that I should have been working whilst claiming so I think I was working about 20 hours a week and stupidly I continued the claim at that time I knew that I should have finished it so it wasn't that I thought that I was ignorant I was just stupid I think and still did. So that was over a six-week period. And then went back to college in September, and that was the end of it, so I thought. And then about a month later, there was a knock at the door,

and it was a DHSS inspector who said that somebody had reported me for wrongful claim. And I was then taken to court and prosecuted for making a wrongful claim over that period. And what was your punishment? I had three £30 fines and I paid the benefit back. I think the benefit was about £200 so that was paid back and I had three fines of £30 because I'd claimed, I'd made the false claim three times over the six-week period. It was a fortnightly claiming process. So what is actually on your criminal record now, all these years on?

My criminal record has one conviction for wrongful claim of supplementary benefit, but underneath that one conviction, it lists the three separate offences on the three different dates that I did that claim over that six weeks. And because it is therefore classed as more than one thing, it still appears 36 years after the event, 33 years later. Emma, if I can bring you in. What happened to you all those years ago when you were 17? Well, not as many years ago as lee obviously because you're only 29

now but it's still a long time ago yeah so when i was 17 i was sat in a friend's garden with a group of people and a fight broke out between two girls and one of them ended up with a cut to her head and although i was not physically involved six months later I was arrested for ABH, which is actual bodily harm. And this was through joint enterprise. So ABH can hold a prison sentence or just, you know, be like mine, kids fighting. And now this is going to be on the record for the rest of my life. How were you punished for that? So I was given a £150 fine and then I had to pay the £100 court fees as well. Now Lee, what effect has your record had on your career prospects?

Well, it's been interesting because my career has been as an NHS manager, so I've worked in the NHS all of my life. I'm self-employed now, but at the beginning of my career it didn't have much of an effect because I wasn't required I wasn't doing a patient facing job so I wasn't required to have a CRB check and most often on application forms I wasn't asked whether or not I had any conviction of any type but more recently I think the last 15 years or so obviously the box has been there to ask whether or not you have a conviction or a spent conviction and even though my conviction was from so long ago and was spent about a year after it took place I still had to say yes that there was a previous conviction there because it would come up on an enhanced DBS check which has it stopped you getting any job not to my knowledge it's put me in some quite embarrassing and awkward situations

when I've had to discuss it and I've had to give contextual information about it so I don't to my knowledge think that it's actually made anyone not proceed with an application but it's certainly made me feel very uncomfortable Because I think you applied to be a school governor

at one stage and that's when it really came up. Yes, that's when it first came up when I was applied to be a school governor at one stage and that's when it really came up. Yes, that's when it first came up when I was going to be a school governor at my eldest son's primary school and the application proceeded, it was fine, I was a school governor but it was very, very awkward for me having to discuss that in that context where my son went to school. Emma, what about you? What effect has it had on your career prospects? So I am a carer, but most employers don't always give the best sort of response when I try and explain my record, but also it's a hassle for them to take me on because they have to perform risk assessments on me

to make sure I'm not a risk to their clients, and this has a huge impact on my confidence and feels like a constant judgment so eventually I actually decided to go self-employed to sort of cut out that awkward interview process that I used to have to go through. So how do you earn your living now then? So I'm still a carer but I'm self-employed which also isn't easy because not many people believe how you can have a record that states you have actual bodily harm on your you've caused actual bodily harm yet I've never physically been involved in any violence so that's difficult but it's it's easier because I

can go to the client direct and they get to know me and it cuts out you know having to do risk assessments and anything like that it's just a little less embarrassing I guess. Now Rachel those two experiences I mean generally what kind of jobs require a DBS check? So there's three levels of DBS check and both Lee and Emma are talking about jobs that require an enhanced check. So that's anything working with children, vulnerable adults, sometimes in secure environments. There's also basic DBS checks, and they'll only disclose unspent convictions. So that can be anybody essentially that's just received a punishment other than a caution would have an unspent conviction for a period of time. And what's actually revealed in the cheque?

What does it say you've done? Yeah, it's a good question because I think a lot of people don't know what's going to appear on that and they see it and they think, well, actually, that doesn't describe what happened. So I think Lee mentioned it will describe that she has one conviction, but it will go on to say that there are three counts of that. So people can look at that and think, one conviction, well, why is that not being filtered? Or, you know, why is that still appearing after 33 years and so on?

But actually, we see that a lot, particularly with things like benefit fraud, where every benefit counts as a separate count. And so that counts as multiple convictions, even though the period of offending was very limited, as it was in her case. There are filtering rules. What do they involve? So filtering was brought in in 2013 and that means that certain convictions or cautions can be removed from the DBS check after a period of time and that period varies according to the age that you were at the time. But there are some rules about what can't be filtered as well.

So multiple convictions, as in Lee's case, will always appear on a cheque. They'll never be filtered. And naturally, serious offences, even if they received a minor punishment, will never be filtered. And we're not asking that that changes. What we're asking for is a proportionate way

of disclosing information. But, I mean, in Emma's case, ABH looks really serious. It does. But she was looking on. She was not the one who actually delivered the bodily harm. So presumably your DBS check

just says actual bodily harm and doesn't give any of the context. Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's the real problem with it. As Emma describes, you know, people look at that and it says assault occasioning ABH. And people think, well, that sounds serious. And then she's in the position of having to explain what that means. So a check doesn't give any context.

And one of the problems for employers, of course, is they don't necessarily have the time or the experience or the interest in listening to context. And it puts them in a difficult position because they have to, as she says, carry out risk assessments and make decisions. And it's often easier to just not bother. Now, there was a Supreme Court ruling in January last year that said two aspects of the rules are disproportionate. What did that mean? So the multiple conviction rule, as we mentioned,

the Supreme Court found that that wasn't really doing its job. Essentially, it's not identifying whether there's a propensity to commit crime, because as we can see, sometimes crimes can happen, you can get multiple convictions for what's essentially the same crime. So that rule needs to change. The Supreme Court found that that's unlawful. And the other one is to do with reprimands and final warnings, basically a kind of youth caution. And those were designed to be rehabilitative for young people under 18 to keep them out of the justice system, really, recognising that people make mistakes and they should have a chance to move on. At the moment, those are disclosed, but that needs to change as well. So in England and Wales at the moment, the rules are the same as they were before that judgment but they should be changing.

Now we did obviously ask the Home Office what their view of this was and a government spokesperson said this we continue to consider the Supreme Court judgment and wider recommendations around changes to criminal record disclosure public safety is our first priority and the system needs to protect the public while also giving offenders a chance to rehabilitate. You must accept that there needs to be a system in place that will protect people. Absolutely. So we're not saying there shouldn't be a system. We're not saying that everything should become filtered at any stage. What we're asking for is a proportionate response to criminal records that remain disclosable to employers based on evidence. So we know, for example, that the time it takes for somebody to stop being a risk, you know, a period of living crime free is much shorter than the period that a criminal record still has to be disclosed. You know, Emma hasn't committed a crime for 12 years, you know, Lee 33 years, and yet is that proportionate? I was talking to Emma Lee Hardy and Rachel Tynan.

We've all come to a point in middle age when we thought it's time to do something to get fitter. Marion Dunn was working as a lab technician when she decided that maybe joining a gym might be a good idea. I was in my late 40s, feeling a bit kind of overweight and unfit. And I had been quite fit in my 30s and I thought I really need to do something. I need to sort of take the bull by the horns and do something. So I wasn't earning a great deal of money as a school lab technician in northern Lancashire so I googled cheap gyms in my area and came across one and I thought oh it's perhaps they've just got a weight to remote them to the public that'll that'll do me that'll be fine

bobbed along and it turned out to be a traditional boxing gym. And not quite what you were expecting. It wasn't quite what I was expecting. It was four men, four boxing bags in a sort of linoleum floored, painted brick kind of traditional boxing gym sort of environment. And I thought, do you know what, I'm going to just give this a go. Yeah, I want to know a little bit more about the way in which they greeted your arrival. Was it overwhelming enthusiasm or something else, Marion? No, it was enthusiasm. I mean, I'd presented myself and the coach in residence, whom I'll call Gerard,

just looked me up and down in a nice way. And he said, how fit do you think you are love and um i lied actually i said for my age not bad well to be fair you've been i think potholing was your interest yeah but this was a very long time ago um and really any fitness that i'd had from that evaporated about the age of 35 so i really was was kind of staring at middle-aged spread like staring down the barrel of a gun, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, I've read some of your writing in the Boxing Diaries and you say that you were trapped in gentle terminal decline.

Oh, yes, that describes it perfectly. Yes, I was. So I decided really it was a kind of use it or lose it scenario. And the coach said, you know, that's fine. I'll ask you again in six weeks. So I had six weeks of the most sort of unimaginable training, I think is the best way of describing it, where I ached in places that I didn't know I could ache. But you know what?

Right from the off, I absolutely loved it. Why? Um I think it was the discipline um the hard work uh the camaraderie the encouragement. I've got to right relatively early on in the in the conversation just mention the safety aspect of this I mean presumably you always wore headgear. Well, I mean, for the first 18 months, I was just doing boxing fitness training. I wasn't actually getting in the ring. And indeed, you know, if you do get in the ring, the energy burn levels are really quite, you know, unsurpassed. So you do have to be reasonably fit before you go in. So, and in good boxing gyms, there's no obligation to actually do any boxing in the

ring if you don't want to many people come along and just do the fitness um but after 18 months I thought well I'll give it a go so I got in the ring and just did some kind of uh gentle sparring uh under the eyes of um a fully qualified coach and I found that I really enjoyed it. And you are, can you describe your proportions? You're about, not at all woman, but you're about the same height as me, aren't you? So, yeah, I mean, I'm five foot two. I don't think by any stretch of the imagination I'm a self-like figure. No, you're four. No, come on, you're not four foot big. Nor would I really want to be, actually.

So I'm just a kind of normal woman shape, I would say. Yes, but are you a flyweight? Bantam? What are you? I think technically I'm a welterweight. Which means? Well, I'm about the weight I am. I can't bring the weight categories immediately to mind. No, OK, you're about the weight you are. I'll settle for about the weight you are.

And Gerard, the man we're calling Gerard, was he your inspiration? Was he hard on you, would you say? It was, but in a good way, in a good way. So, I mean, what you want from a coach is somebody who will push you, but will push you within sensible limits. And often he pushed me, you know,

just beyond what I thought I could actually do. But, you know, in a reputable boxing gym, you'll find that the coaches are incredibly shrewd and skilled and they will know, you know, how far they can push you. Tell me how you first learnt how to form a punch, because I have to say, I just would have literally no idea what to do well um boxing when executed properly is a bit like a a dance um you know the object of the exercise in a in a good amateur gym is is not to pulverize your opponent at all it's to outwit them and um it's really I would think akin to dancing in terms of learning the particular moves. It's about throwing your weight about in a good way. Would you box against a man when you were training? Yes. I mean, often not very successfully, I have to say,

because boxing somebody taller than yourself is quite difficult. But again, under the watchful eye of a coach, the difficulty that I have at my age, to be perfectly frank, is speed. I've got reasonable aerobic fitness, reasonable strength, reasonable flexibility. But I think one of the difficulties with age, despite some mitigating factors,

is actually having the speed you're 56 now i am you've no intention of packing it in yet have you absolutely none uh as long as my physiotherapist is happy i'm happy how many times a week are you going to the gym uh i'm going twice to train with my boxing club and then i do a further fitness session just on my own at a local gym that has a boxing bag. And to any woman who's thinking of doing this, you would say the camaraderie is excellent and you will not be mocked because I think that's the most, that would certainly be the one thing I'd be concerned about.

It's a very interesting question that, Jane, and one that I seem to have been asked continually. Absolutely not. The reception that I have had at my now normal boxing gym but other boxing gyms too is i've been welcomed with open arms treated with respect courtesy politeness there's only one qualification for stepping inside the boxing gym and that's being prepared to work hard mariannen, who's the author of The Boxing Diaries. It's not easy for any parent who has a child with autism to find good information and support,

but research carried out by the National Autistic Society found that children from an ethnic background are less likely than white children to be correctly assessed. They're often said to have behavioural issues or difficulty with anger management. Nearly a quarter of them have been excluded from school and the society has dubbed it double discrimination. Well that was in 2014 and six years on, nothing much appears to have changed. Vanessa Bobb has three children, two of whom have been diagnosed with autism, and she set up a charity, A Second Voice.

Pam Akuli has three sons. Her eldest was diagnosed three years ago and she's produced a set of children's picture books. Why does she use the term double discrimination? It was coined many years ago. And unfortunately, from personal experiences, I still think that's completely relevant. My oldest son is mixed race and he was diagnosed three years ago. And we found it really, really difficult to even get a foot in the door to get that diagnosis. I had to really, really fight for it.

And when I did speak to health professionals, I was basically told that he had behaviour issues, maybe had symptoms of ADHD. I had to go back for about nine months before I could convince them to try and start the process of diagnosing him. Were you treated equally, you and your husband? Not at all. Because your husband is white. Yes he is white Alex is white and it's quite interesting that you say that I think after the third time of going back I told Alex you go on your own please and you speak to the health professionals and we had completely different experiences after the first time I've seen the

paediatrician Alex came back and said had had a really, really good discussion with him. And he's basically said that, yes, we're going to start the process of diagnosing for autism. And obviously I was overjoyed at that point because that's what I'd been fighting for for such a long time. But the key point is that I had to fight for it. And I felt like my husband kind of went in there and different questions were asked I felt that the questions were very much targeted to me as his mother um as motherhood and how I was you know bringing up my child and for the dad to walk in and ask similar questions but be told that yeah we're going to start the process um it kind of it did really hurt it did hurt I'm not going to lie Vanessa what about you how difficult was it for you to get a diagnosis for your son and your daughter?

Nathaniel was diagnosed in 2008 with autism, ADHD. Prior to that, his challenging behaviour was just seen as my parenting skills. It's when he got excluded, that's where the alarm bells were there. But even though I thought he was just a bad child, because that's what I was told as a mother, once he had the diagnosis, I think that's where the problems more started. Nobody wanted to accept the label.

For my daughter, Michaela, she was diagnosed with autism, ADHD and epilepsy between 2017 and 2018. It took longer for my daughter because they said that she was copying her son, sorry, my son's behaviour. But for me, I just knew her behaviour was very different because her brother at the time by then was in the residential school. So for me, it was fighting a system where everybody just said it was my parenting skills. this is very recent that your daughter had these problems

how common would you say these kind of experiences are even now when so much research has been done on it it's still i would say it's always been there for communities but i think when it comes to um as we're talking about double discrimination we're talking about black autistic children it would take 10 times longer the evidence is there when they do research most of the research is aimed as we've always been told as middle-class white boys it's not looking at the diagnostic tool where when you're looking at black children behavior issues is always seen the first thing when they see a black child running down the street so when we're talking about my child is acting inappropriately they're quick to say it's because of my my child's um yeah my child's behavior why did you decide to set up your charity i set it up

because nobody was speaking for me it wasn't that um it was for my son at the time i just felt as a black mother nobody was listening to me at the time I came and saying it's going to be for the black community by then I was like dealing with poor white families I didn't see nobody like me and that's when I thought let me just look at community and not look at just the black community. And how important Pam have your picture books been for your child's development? They've been absolutely amazing I mean Walter was completely non-verbal up until the age of about four four and a half but we quickly realised that he was very connected with books and visuals and he used that as a means of communication almost and then I realised that there were no books where children like Walter could see themselves in the pages of those

books and that's what kind of spurred me on to write these picture books to kind of champion inclusive inclusivity and diversity and it's really helped him because he can now relate to the character not just visually um but just also through some of the things that the character does which is very similar to him and his autistic traits how generally would you say autism is viewed within the black community? Once you've got your diagnosis, what do people say? It's difficult. It's a tricky one because there's things like, depending on where you're from, there's language barriers, there's cultural barriers and stigmas. I have been speaking to a lady who English is not her first language.

So in her native tongue, there's no word for autism. So the closest they get to it is someone who's got mental health issues. So there's stigma on both sides, which makes it incredibly difficult for families and carers to get the help and support that they really need. What's been your experience of how the community sees it? I may be a bit controversial here. I would say, from my experience, being part of the National Society Diverse Perspective was that it took only 130 people that came forward.

When we look at education survey, 11,000 people came forward. I would say my experience being in the white community, discrimination is that everybody will know about autism, but the cultural perspective is always not looked at where that's where the discrimination comes. In the black community, my experience, I've always felt that I've always felt isolated. I felt that I've always been sabotaged. I've been told that I'm mentally ill. I've got issues. I seem to always be labelled that I'm the problem. So what I've had to do is just go alone and connect with other families where we've all just all come together and we've had to fight a different fight. So double discrimination for me is no matter where I am as a black mother,

I'm fighting the fight because I'm always being told I'm still the problem and I just need to get on with it. How is your son doing? Well, Walter is six. We tried him at mainstream school when he first started school and he lasted about five months and we pulled him out. He almost started to regress and we made the decision that he needed some more specialist one-to-one support.

So we moved him actually to a specialist school and the transformation has been phenomenal. It's like a completely different child, different learning style as well, which is what he needs and I think sometimes in mainstream they try and mould an autistic child to become more like a mainstream child and that's not the case we should be finding what their strengths are and what their positives are and kind of harnessing those as opposed to you know trying to dampening or silencing their autism, which is completely the wrong thing to do. I was talking to Pam Akuli and Vanessa Bob.

Now, some of the most talked about subjects on social media are skincare, hair, makeup, and what's now known as wellness. And one of the leading exponents is, of course, Gwyneth Paltrow with her Goop Lab, now on Netflix, exploring anything from reducing your biological age to healing yourself with energy. Why are so many of us so keen on advice and products that are not necessarily backed by any scientific research? Well, Professor Talia Sharot is a cognitive neuroscientist and the author of The Influential Mind. Dr Anjali Mato has written The Skincare Bible and is a consultant dermatologist

with 63,000 followers on Instagram. Anne-Marie Lodge has 35,000 followers and calls herself re of really re why did she become interested in all this i'm quite a diy so i like to do my a lot of treatments at home but i do and i've tried some crazy ones before so i mean i'm i just want to improve my skin and feel good about it and get some fun i mean for me beauty industry is really fun so it's not overly serious well it's not overly serious until you get to how much money it makes and then it becomes extremely serious and then also wellness these cosmetic surgery we were surgery procedures we were talking last week about the fact that 92 percent of cosmetic surgery procedures in this country are carried out on women and girls something is happening and frankly it's happening to us isn't it oh absolutely and and the thing is the beauty industry is huge is a serious powerful machine

which is something that i love about it because a lot of people would approach what i do in life and my interest is being fluff and it's not i mean it employs millions of people and creates a lot of money for economies all right well let's see mean, you're absolutely right, of course. It keeps people in work, and that's hugely important. Our cognitive neuroscientist, Tali, what do you think of what Anne-Marie has just said there? Well, I think that she said a few things that were key. She said that it makes her feel better and it's fun. And part of the reason that people would buy a certain moisturizer is because it makes them feel better. And, I mean, there is a price on feeling.

There is a price on beliefs. Beliefs on their own have utility. And then there's a whole issue of placebo, right? The placebo effect is maybe the most robust effects in medicine. And it turns out that if a certain pill or a certain product you know, product costs more, the placebo effect actually works better. So there's one study, for example, where two groups of subjects were both given a regular paracetamol. One group was told, this is regular paracetamol, it costs 10p a pop. The other group was told, this is a special type of pill, it costs 10 pounds a pop. The group that was told it

costs 10 pounds had a greater effect. It reduces their pain more because they believed that this is a special medicine. And that has a huge effect. And now this is pure medicine. We all know the placebo effect works. In fact, if you have a clinical trial, you have to test your product or your pill relative to a placebo. So I think, you know, if you buy something and it comes in a nice packaging and it costs more, it could potentially make you feel better and you would perceive your skin to be smoother. And I think that's part of the reason that these kind of things are so popular. Anjali, let's say I've got a moisturiser that cost me 50 quid and I've got something I got from the local place down the road here. You could get there in three minutes and I paid £2.50. I'm actually essentially buying the same

product but with maybe better perfume in the more expensive one. That's right I think there is a very common misconception in the beauty industry that something expensive is therefore better for your skin or more effective for your skin and that's not actually the case. Is it never the case? It's unlikely to be the case. What tends to happen is a lot of companies or labs will produce a lot of products, companies will buy them and they will package them up in their own way. So the extra money that you're actually spending is on the branding and the packaging and the marketing, not necessarily those ingredients themselves. But we are making ourselves potentially happier by indulging in these products every now and again.

So where's the harm? So I think the key point here is, I think the underlying issue that we're not talking about is youth is still seen as a hallmark for beauty. And I think one of the main issues here is we're still not used to seeing women, for example, after they get to a certain age in prominent positions. The anti-aging industry is very, very much built still

predominantly on women. So I think that there is an underlying issue where we're not talking about the fact that actually, why are we so afraid of aging? Aging is a natural process. It happens to all of us. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing I'd probably say is, sure, there's no harm in spending more money on a moisturiser, provided you're making that decision based on knowledge that it's making you feel better. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's doing more for your skin. Angela, I mean, you're a big presence on Instagram too, aren't you? You use this platform to spread, well, would you say information or how would

you describe what you do? I think I would say, I mean, it's scientific information around skin. Because you are a qualified consultant dermatologist. Indeed. And one thing that I feel quite strongly about actually is I do think that there is a real kind of, I think, lapse at the moment in critical thinking and scientific thinking. And I think that is part of the reason why people are falling for pseudoscientific beliefs. And personally, in my opinion, I think it's a slippery slope. I think people that start to believe one thing that is slightly sketchy in the science

are more likely to believe others. So I think it can start off with something as harmless as buying a lip cream, but that can be extended to the person that's got a skin disease, like acne, for example, that then starts throwing a lot of money on skincare products that aren't going to the person that's got a skin disease like acne for example that then starts throwing a lot of money on skincare products that aren't going to help their skin and then it's the knock-on effects of that that concern me about what we're seeing at the moment.

Dr Anjali Mato, Professor Tali Sharot and Anne-Marie Lodge were talking to Jane. On Monday we'll be hearing from Danielle about why she decided to discover if she's a carrier of the gene for Huntington's disease and of course the impact finding out has had on her life. And life for girls in Afghanistan which can be dangerous and with no set education system, they can often find themselves married early. But a centre in Kabul is teaching children from poor areas to read, write and skateboard.

It's the subject of a BAFTA-nominated film by Carol Dissinger. So join Jane on Monday, two minutes past ten, from me for today. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. Bye-bye. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.