Woman's Hour - The Euros, Money, Atomic Kitten

Episode Date: July 8, 2021

The Footie! England's through to the final of the Euros after a nail biting match against Denmark last night. We speak to Emma Hayes, Chelsea Women Manager who was on the TV commentary team last night; to Jacqui Oatley who's commentated for World Cups and European Championships for both the BBC and ITV, and to Jane Merrick, Policy Editor at the i newspaper who tweeted last night about loving the celebration. We also hear from 2 members of Atomic Kitten, who sing us some of their song, Whole Again, specially reversioned for the England team. We talk about money with Otegha Uwagba. She's got a new book called We Need To Talk About Money.At the end of last month Bill Cosby was freed from prison after serving less than three years of a potential ten year sentence. Accused by more than 60 women of rape or sexual assault he's always maintained his innocence. Victoria Valentino was one of those women who made allegations but didn’t speak up for 45 years. She tells Emma her story. And contraception and environmentalism. If your pill, coil or condoms came with a message about how having fewer children is better for the environment, how would you feel about it? The idea of limiting or controlling the number of people on the planet is highly controversial but there are academics and specialists in women's reproductive rights who think now is the time to restart the conversation about having smaller families. Emma speaks to journalist and commentator, Ella Whelan, and to Professor of Policy, Systems and Reproductive Health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, Susannah Mayhew.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. I thought we'd start today with a little of this. Looking back on when we first met I can't understand and I cannot forget Talking of the one. Atomic Kitten's tribute to football and the man, Gareth Southgate. It's become one of the new England anthems, spreading joy and 90s nostalgia across social media

after England's glorious win against Denmark last night. Definitely had to play that to you. Women forming the soundtrack of this unique moment. Whether you're into football or not, after the year and a half we've had, it is a great excuse to celebrate, to feel. And now

plenty of people will be planning their Sunday evenings, how and where they'll watch England versus Italy. It is historic, whatever happens. And that will be planning their Sunday evenings, how and where they'll watch England versus Italy. It is historic, whatever happens. And that will be at Wembley. But what kind of celebrator are you? How did you react when the goals went in? The video of the former footballer Ian Wright, Wrighty and Emma Hayes, Chelsea women manager, both commentating on the match last night on ITV, has gone viral, for instance, after Raheem Sterling equalised. And they hug, they jump, they fist pump. They do every form of physical celebration you can imagine.

Do check it out. And I'm hoping I'll be able to talk to Emma shortly. But what are you? Are you a silent fist in the air? Are you a jumper? Are you a clapper? Are you not allowing yourself potentially to celebrate right into the end? We want to talk about celebration

today. How do you let rip? Let rip with us here on Woman's Hour. 84844 is the number you need to text. On social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. Also on today's programme, money. Do you ever talk about it?

Who do you talk about it with? Or do you avoid discussions of it like the plague? Attega Awagba is here to set the record straight with her new book on the matter, and she's arguing we must talk about it, especially as women. And I'll also be talking and we'll be hearing from one of Bill Cosby's accusers

about what she and her sisters-in-arms, as she calls them, plans to do now, the comedian is out of jail. All that to come here on Woman's Hour. You're already getting in touch with how you celebrate and how it is for you. It is the only story in town. England is through to the final of the Euros after a nail-biting match against Denmark. It wasn't all enjoyable, was it? Joining me now, the football presenter, Jackie Oakley, who's of course commentated for World Cups and European Championships for both ITV and the BBC.

And we've also got Jane Merrick on the line, policy editor at the iNewspaper, who tweeted something last night about that celebration and how much we need it at the moment. So we'll reflect on that with her. And I'm also told we've got Emma Hayes on the line, Chelsea women manager, who I was just mentioning, has gone viral with her and I'm also told we've got Emma Hayes on the line Chelsea women manager who I was just mentioning has gone viral with her celebrations you know what Emma I'm going to start with you good morning good morning how are you how are you how's the head I have honestly woke

up this morning thinking about that being my favourite moment as a football fan my entire life. And clearly, you know, I couldn't control myself with righty in the gantry, but that was hands down the best moment I've ever had as a fan. Why? The emotion, the sound at Wembley was unreal. I've never, ever heard anything like that at Wembley before. It was united. It was unanimous.

I really felt the crowd drive the team on, especially the second half onwards. There was a togetherness that has rarely been seen with previous England teams. I think they're indicative of, I don't know, every one of us. Everyone could resonate. We can resonate with the players, with the staff. Oh, just, I've lost my voice this morning.

I'm truly, I'm hung over from adrenaline. From adrenaline. Is that it? Of that game. No, nothing else? Yeah, definitely. No, no, I had to get up to a baby this morning. So that changed my thinking thinking but I've experienced

so many different situations as a coach as a semi-final and I always think semi-finals are on some levels so much so much better than the final in terms of you know you're aspiring to get to something yes but but last night was was an experience unrivaled and I'm sure the rest of the country is saying the same thing. How do you feel about that moment of you and Righty going viral? Oh, I just, you know what? I'm a fan. I love football. And to celebrate a moment like that with 60,000 people

and someone as passionate as Righty, it would have been rude not to celebrate. I had Roy Keane next to me on the left. He had the ump. But, you know, I made sure, you know, I tried to get him moving a little bit. He was pleased for us, but I didn't get much of a smile out of him.

I was going to say, I'm not surprised because anyone who knows Roy Keane wouldn't be. But the point, or watches him, I should say. I don't know him. But what I was going to say is, you say you lost yourself. You know, you just let yourself go in that moment. Are you not normally a jump around person? I don't know him. But what I was going to say is you say you lost yourself. You know, you just let yourself go in that moment. Are you not normally a jump around person? I don't know if anyone sees me on the touchline when my own team score massive goals.

I'll probably behave exactly the same, except it didn't last. It lasts a lot longer as a fan. Yeah. As a manager, you're having to regroup and think about the next action for your team as a fan it's just it was just blissful for however i mean the equalizer in the timing of the equalizer i think was significant but that i heard a description of harry canes being almost like a version of a you know people say it's a one two into the net it was more like the COVID first and second jab all over for everyone. And I think, you know, those boys are amazing. Gareth and his team are fantastic. And everybody's bouncing into the weekend, excited about, you know,

what could be come Sunday evening. What are you going to do Sunday evening? You know what? I'm due to go to Cornwall on holiday with my family Friday and ITV are asking if I want to go to the game

and it's one of those moments where I'm thinking I know I need a holiday but how can you miss a European Championship final? You can't, can you? I think I'm going to be getting in a car

coming back for the game and then head straight back on holiday. Well, I think we need you there. You can now become our mascot after you're jumping around with writing. It was so infectious to watch it. I'm absolutely buzzing this morning. I'm sure a lot will feel the same. Let me just ask you also around. Did you hear the Atomic Kitten tribute for Southgate? What do you make?

So I've got no voice. I've sung every song. I'm surprised it didn't come down the mic, but what a cracking song. But that's the thing as well, isn't it? The tribute to him is immense at the moment. And obviously a lot of people talking about, you know, his redemption in inverted commas.

You know, he's a wonderful guy. I'm on a leadership, I'm in a leadership group with Gareth of some fantastic sporting leaders in this country. He's generous, he's open-minded, he's progressive. special, considering the pressures of that job is significantly higher, I think, than any job in this country in the sporting context. And he's managed it with not just calm, assured leadership, but with unbelievable humility. Yeah. I mean, some may say it's going a bit forward to say, Southgate, you turn me on.

But there you go. It's in the song. And everyone's now belting it out across England, we should say. Some people, of course, I know, I must reflect this, getting in touch to say it's not necessarily the same feeling for them today, whether they are supporting England or they just don't even love football. But for those who are celebrating, a lot of them are doing similar moves to you. Emma Hayes, I'll let you crack on. Thank you very much for being with us this morning. Let me bring in Jackie Oatley. Jackie, what kind of celebrator are you? Where were you last night?

Well, it depends entirely on the circumstances, doesn't it? Last night, my seven year old son went to bed at eight o'clock and I let my 10 year old daughter stay up just for the 90 minutes. And then she unfortunately went to bed bed so that governed what sort of celebration I could have and I was a pacer I was pacing around the lounge my daughter was kind of chatting all the way through the 90 minutes and I was pacing nervously ready to leap into action as and when there was a goal and and with the first goal so the equalizer there's always that doubt is there an outside issue is perhaps this moment going to be taken away from us? So it was a case of punching the air.

But when it came to the penalty, you knew with Harry Kane putting in the rebound, that was definitive. There was no way there was anything wrong with that. So I just, it was a knee slide on the carpet and punching the air, both fists nonstop for about 10 minutes. My husband thinking I'm a bit weird, but no, I mean, that was the most I could do, nonstop for about 10 minutes. My husband thinking I'm a bit weird.

But no, I mean, that was the most I could do because she couldn't make any noise. But if I was in a pub, I'd be going absolutely nuts. But I like to hear commentary as well and watch the whole thing properly so I know who's done what in the game. I like to soak it all in. I love what you just said about it. No doubt there about the penalty and what happened with that.

But there's a message here to Woman's Hour before another round of North Korean- style triumphalism gets going. May I point out that the winning penalty was controversial, to say the least, yours not celebrating with a couple of kisses on the end of that text. Yeah, oh, it was controversial. I think the country is quite united in the sense that had it been given against England, they'd be absolutely furious and gutted, etc. And I've just watched it back several times from several angles because that's how I roll. But Maylett did pop his foot across the back of Sterling's legs about a second after the ball had gone. And he did touch him and Sterling went down, whether it was enough for a penalty.

You can see from Sterling's point of view why he went down. And it wasn't a clear and obvious error by the referee. So VAR didn't encourage him to look again to overturn it. And you think, yes, of course, it's devastating for the Danish side because they've been fantastic. I think England were the better side last night overall. But you look back, you look back, you can't help it. Diego Maradona punching the ball over the head of Peter Shilton in 86. You think of Frank Lampard's goal that was way over the line that would have made it 2-2 against Germany in 2010. I mean, there are plenty of other scenarios.

I've got to say, Jackie, listening to you now, and obviously we just spoke to Emma, who was on the commentary team last night. Do you feel that the commentary in terms of men and women presenting, how do you feel about that this year? I think it's fantastic. I think it's moved on so much. I was doing ITV coverage

at the last Euros and last World Cup and we had Enia Luko in the studio. BBC had Alex Scott and that was seen as quite controversial, having a woman giving an opinion about football. And I think we've moved on so much since then. I think it's moved on with the professionalism of the women's game and Emma leading Chelsea to the Champions League final was a really big deal. And people watching Emma now who maybe don't watch the women's game, maybe don't know too much about Emma. She, not single

handedly, because there are plenty of other women doing a great job too. She's educating an audience in tactics. And that's what's really made people sit up and take notice. And I think people watching football now realise it's not a game for men anymore. Women have vast amounts of experience since it's become so much more professional. And people such as Karen Carney on Five Live, excellent insight as ever. And so many more as well. It's just football. Women, men, coaches, ex-players,

they're just footballers and pundits, and they're all offering something. That change has been made, you would say, in the last few years, and will keep going, presumably. Let me bring in Jane at this point. Celebration. I've already got some messages, many messages, about how people have done it.

I screamed, reads Karen's message here, punched the air, jumped up and down, then punched the sofa cushions. Totally embarrassing. And knee skids across the carpet, says Anna.

Turns out winning is an anaesthetic for middle-aged aches and pains. Jane, your point was we needed this, didn't we? Yeah, definitely. I have a 10-year-old daughter as well, like Jackie, but I feel bad because mine stayed up right till the end,

so she's very tired this morning. But her lovely teacher, Mr Ford, has been teaching their class, Three Lions, so she knows all the words. She's completely into it. So when the final goal, Harry Kane's called the final goal, we were just jumping up and down and making so much noise and we did need it and I'd forgotten I'd forgotten it's only the last couple of weeks of experiencing this tournament and actually Wimbledon as well as I've forgotten what it was like to feel the highs and lows of emotion because actually what I realized reflecting

on the last 16 months is that I and I'm sure many other people have felt this, have had to sort of not be completely numb, but sort of put your emotions in a kind of within an acceptable range. Because we've had so many false dawns with coronavirus. We've had so many moments of despair, so many moments of hope and optimism that it's been easier just to kind of keep things on an even keel and just to be able to let go and to let rip you know I was crying when when Emma Raducanu went out Wimbledon I was so happy for her on Saturday when she on her earlier game so last night I was experiencing everything and it was just just to feel something and actually sort of expectations management before the game I said it's okay if even if we go out tonight, it's just the feeling to feel the sadness actually is just as good as feeling that the excitement and the joy would actually scratch that because actually the joy is so much better. There has been, I mean, of course, some people will have experienced, you know, not been able to keep a lid on it this year because we'll have experienced huge loss.

There will have been already issues around jobs and all of that that we're starting to see and already seeing but I think a lot of people will be able to relate and I certainly can to this let's just keep it keep a lid on it we don't know what's going to happen so just stay steady eddy all the way because you can't really make plans you can't really know and you don't want to get disappointed and I think that if sport is your thing there is a valve there isn't there yes it's completely a proxy I mean I've always loved I love sport I love the Olympics I love tennis you know football I remember my first world cup I watched um as a a nine-year-old 1982 when Italy won that and it was just the

occasion it was the it was not just the sporting brilliance but it was the excitement and the ups and downs and that roller coaster I think there were so few things in life other than sport that can give you that but actually this time it is allowing us to have this proxy of of feeling all those emotions and feeling all that is just there's just nothing like it talking of planning Jackie plans for Sunday well I'm working all day building up to it on TV until the evening so I'll just get back in time but we haven't had chance to think about it I'm pretty superstitious about things I don't like getting too far ahead so I wouldn't plan anything and I get really really sort of cringy when people talk about what they'll do for the final before the semis so I haven't't thought about it, but I'm in the mood to slightly let rip

because I've had to contain myself for so many years working at these tournaments, being so lucky to be there, but you can't celebrate in a press box. And so there is part of me that thinks I really need to, I really need just to let it all out. So there might have to be some sort of pub action or something sociable. I think you've earned it, Jackie. We all do. Thank you for seeing us through so many moments and talking to us this morning on Women's Hour.

And to you, Jane, have you made any plans? Have you let yourself dream? I'm actually working on Sunday. So while I'll probably have done all my writing about coronavirus in the day, I'll probably have to find out, you know, how the prime minister's, you know, whatever happens, how the prime minister's spending the game.

And yeah, just again. Well, he had a shirt on last night, didn't he? Had his England top with his Boris number on the back. He did, but with a suit jacket over it, which looked a bit... There you go. Well, we'll follow whatever you've got to tell us as well, I'm sure. Jane Merritt, thank you for talking to us about the need to celebrate and kickstarting this conversation. Because I think, you know, some of the messages coming in, please do spare a thought for those who don't love football. And I do. I know that there are many.

And I know that there are many who have felt that something clicked a bit last night. And even if they don't get the joy, they're sort of loving everybody else, feeling it and seeing it. And that is unless you're this person who hasn't given their name. My response was very muted since I live in Scotland and I didn't wish to upset those around me. Can't say it'll be as muted if we win on Sunday. No, things will be, I'm sure, different.

But Joe says, I had to be silent because one of my dogs can't cope with the noise. The TV has to be silent, otherwise he shakes from head to foot. And Margaret says, I hope my daughter doesn't mind me sharing this, but every time the score flashed up, my eight-year-old granddaughter thought it had finished

and then two minutes before extra time finished, she said, what colour are England? Fair enough. Margaret, good morning to you. Good morning to her. Now, I said we needed to talk about money, but do you ever? And to whom we need to talk about money is the title of the journalist and author Otega's Awagba's new book, as she tries to open up a conversation often deemed too awkward, too difficult. And yet money is something that plays on people's minds in all sorts of ways, all of the time. Attega, good morning. Good morning.

Thank you for joining us on a day where we're talking a bit about celebration. But of course, people starting to plan, plan for their lives, their social lives, all of that underpinned by what you can afford. And that's really at the heart of what you're talking about, isn't it? You know, what underpins our life that we just don't talk about? Totally. I mean, if you give me any subject, I can bring it back to money, whether it's food, where you live, who you're friends with, who you end up getting married to. Money is one of those things that controls and impacts every aspect of our lives. You know, everything that you're able to do or not able to do, how you feel, how easily you sleep at night, how stressed you are, your mental health. But for some reason, especially in Britain, we're so bad about talking

about money at talking, we're so bad at talking about money openly. And it's something that makes a lot of people feel very awkward and ashamed. So I really wrote the book to address that. It's a really lovely and interesting read and a lot of personal stories from you, which I think is important because it's sort of like, you know, if I tell you mine, you'll tell me yours a bit and try and open that up. You talk about a lot of people's attitudes towards money coming from their family, from their early days. How did you first become aware of money and perhaps the pressure of not having enough? Well, most people pick up their financial attitudes, as you say, in early childhood and their teenage years. You know, psychologists have looked at and it's called financial socialisation.

But I think for me personally, you know, my background is that I'm from an immigrant background. I moved to this country when I was five years old. And when we first moved here, you know, for a number of years afterwards, things were tough financially. You know, we didn't have a lot of money. And I think as a child, I just absorbed that and became really aware of money and thinking of it as a kind of finite resource. And I think I absorbed some anxieties from watching certain things happen in my household or overhearing certain conversations.

But it wasn't until I was a bit older, kind of in my early 20s and at liberty to manage my own finances that I think a lot of those anxieties really came to the forefront. Do you think you can get rid of those anxieties or you should get rid of those anxieties or are they healthy? That's such a good question because I'm someone who has gotten rid of some of those anxieties. You know, the process of writing the book for me was actually really transformative for my relationship with money, which was an unexpected side effect, but really great. You know, in some ways, my anxiety served me really well. It made me a really sensible, you know, spender. I'm much more of a saver than a spender. I've always been very financially literal. I've always been good with money, but I haven't always felt good about money. So it definitely served me in

that sense. But at the same time, I also denied myself a lot of pleasures and, you know, a lot of happiness and just stressed about it in a way that really wasn't beneficial to me. So I think it really depends on what your particular vulnerability or neurosis about money is. You know, if you're an overspender, then often that means you're very generous with the people around you. And generosity is a lovely quality. It's just about figuring out which of those behaviours and which of those emotions serve you, and which of those are a bit toxic and the things you need to work through. I think it's one of those things as well that's really interesting that when you ask somebody, and if you ask especially a woman, and I know you'll have a view on this,

about what drives you and why do you do your work and all of that, you're not allowed to ever say, well, I need to actually earn some money and I want to, and I want to, you know, improve my life or have nice things or try and improve the life of my children. You always have to couch it in a slightly different way or not mention it at all. Totally, and it's something that, you know, I experienced as a writer, because obviously you're supposed to kind of do it just for the love of the craft.

And I do love writing. It's what I've always wanted to do since I was a child. But I'm also very clear that I need to make a livelihood out of this. And I have certain financial goals that I want to achieve. And especially when it comes to women, we are shamed for being openly concerned with money, for seeking money out, for saying, look, I want a pay rise or, you know, I want that juicy commission. And so much of that is, you know, tied up and really kind of gendered norms that we've been conditioned with. But I really, something that I tell all my friends and my friends will say this if they're listening, is I think we should be unashamed about asking for more money. And the second I kind of got over

that, because it hasn't always been the case, but when I got over that, it really, again, allowed me to make more money. And it's made my life a lot easier in many ways. But there's something in the book that, honestly, I read it, reread it, went back to it. I thought, I really hope she's not right, but I trust you on this, Attega. You say starting salaries tend to set the benchmark for future earnings and negotiations. And if that is the case, which I'm going to take from you, that's when people don't have the confidence. That's when they're perhaps just desperate and very happy to accept whatever they're given. Yeah, that's often the case. And, you know, that's why I put that bit of information in the book. And I've had so many people responding to me and saying they hadn't realised that and they wish they'd known.

And so I'm hoping that women who read that, women especially who read that, recognise that. Because essentially, if you are underpaid, say when you come out of uni, you get your first job when you're 21, a lot of your pay rises, whether in the same job or when you move to a new job, they will be dependent on your current salary. So over the years, those pay differentials can accumulate over time and just kind of have an exponential effect. So it's really important that you get those early negotiations and early salaries correct. And women do go up for it, but don't always get the success because of those expectations that they shouldn't be asking. Yes. And that's something that actually really surprised me when I was researching the book, because, you know, the wisdom is, the perceived wisdom is that

women don't ask for pay rises as much as men do. And that's one of the reasons why the gender pay gap exists. Now, there've been so many much more recent studies and, you know, data that's come out that shows that women do actually ask for pay rises at the same rate as men. They're just more likely to be told no, which you can't really put down to anything but, you know, very ingrained sexism. And so that's something that I also really wanted to put out there as well, because it's quite manipulative on the one hand to, you know, say no to women when they ask for these pay rises and simultaneously blame them for the effects of the gender pay gap.

That's very interesting. I mean, coming away from the world of work and talking about being with your friends, you mentioned being generous and that being a lovely attribute. What about if you can't afford to keep up with your friends? There's quite a lot of stress around that. And then obviously we're not been in regular times, but obviously things like weddings happen or there's lots of things going on where you've sort of got to keep up. What do you advise or think about that? This is something that I've thought about so many years because there have definitely been positions in my life where I have been the person who can't keep up. And

I think the most important thing actually is to be honest about it with yourself. And, you know, self-delusion and trying to overspend or taking out credit card debt in order to keep up your friends, the only person that's going to eventually impact is you and you know personally I think if being friends with someone is dependent on you being able to match their spending and being able to go to a fancy bar or go on expensive holiday that isn't really a real friendship like you can do amazing things with your friends for free actually I think the pandemic actually really showed us how it's possible you know a lot of us were limited to just going for walks in parks with our friends and I was doing that and I was like why didn't we do this pre-pandemic?

This is so much nicer than like a pricey brunch in some overpriced place. So I think for me, it's about being honest. And also it is about kind of just plucking up the courage. And also if you say, oh, look, I can't afford this, but how about we do this instead? So instead of going out for dinner, why don't you say, OK, well, I'll cook for you at home and, and you know we'll bring our own food or bring our own wine there are always cheaper alternatives and i think real friends will understand that and be conscious of your budget you also want to talk about people hiding things so there's there's the hidden if you can't afford but there's also how people manage to do things and you can't quite figure out how they've managed to do it so hidden help whether, whether that's getting on the property ladder. I smile when I think about this because it's one

of those, you know, I love asking questions, hopefully that people want to hear the answers to. But that's one of those questions, isn't it? You think, I didn't know. Okay, how have you managed to do that? And there is a real taboo, isn't there, around that, the other aspect of that, how people have afforded to do things. Totally. And I spent a lot of my early and mid-twenties wondering how some of my peers had managed to get onto the property ladder, which for me was just always a massive goal and something that I wanted to do. Which you've recently done. Am I allowed to say that? Congratulations. Yes, which I've recently done. Thank you very much. But that, you know, that was such a preoccupation of mine in my twenties. And I would kind of do the maths, you know, sometimes they were peers, and, you know, I knew how much they

were earning, we have the same job. I think, how did you get a big enough mortgage to get on the property ladder and to buy this swish tea bed flat. And as I kind of got to the tail end of my 20s, I realised that it was all financial help from their parents. But people, often they don't share that openly. Sometimes, and on some occasions people outright lied to me about how they'd managed to get onto the property ladder and what it did is that it just really misled me as to my chances of being able to make it happen how it make happen I had one particular incident where a friend of mine who I knew we were earning the same salary when she bought her place you know and I broached it with her a few years down the line I was like

hey you know how did you manage to get a mortgage on that salary? I was like, is there a specialist lender? Who did you use? Will they lend to me? And she revealed that she didn't actually have a mortgage and her parents had bought her the flat outright. But I'd gone years thinking, OK, well, that's my benchmark. When I've got a big enough deposit, I'll just ask her who her lender is and I'll be able to do it. And that just completely scattered and upended my vision of what I thought was going to happen. So I do think it's really important. I kind of see it as a sort of social contract.

Like I always describe that transparency as the moral tax payable on your good fortune. If you are fortunate enough to have financial help, whether it's from parents or from a wealthy partner, the very least you can do is be honest about that with other people so that they can put their own situations into perspective. Well, we have many messages coming in about this. We could talk for a lot longer about various aspects, because as you say, I think you can pretty much bring most subjects back to the issue of money. And you've done many of those in your book and

very well too. Thank you very much for coming to talk to us. The book is called We Need to Talk About Money, Otega Uwagba, and how we need to open up those conversations. Do get in touch with us, 84844, on perhaps things you've been too scared to share or say. You can say with us and you don't have to give your real name. But on yesterday's programme, I just wanted to flag this to you in case you missed it. I talked to Lady Lavinia Norse, the 77-year-old widow of the former High Court judge, Sir Martin Norse, who 77-year-old widow of the former High Court judge Sir Martin Norse, who just over a month ago was sensationally acquitted of 17 counts of historical child sex abuse. In her first broadcast interview, she's called for those accused of child sex abuse to be anonymous until charged.

It was quite an insight and many of you got in touch with us about it. She told me that the case has left her life in pieces and described how she felt going into the trial. Hell, that's all I can say. I've never been so frightened, lonely and utterly miserable. I had my legal team, but that was all. The press were out there every day photographing me and harassing me. And it was terrifying.

And of course, knowing, I suppose, if it hadn't gone that way, I could have gone to prison. That full interview, if you missed it, is on BBC Sounds. Just search for Woman's Hour and you can hear it. Now, just over a week ago, the American stand-up comedian and actor Bill Cosby was freed from prison where he was serving a sentence for drugging and sexually assaulting Andrea Costand. After serving less than three years of a potential 10-year sentence on what some would call a legal technicality, Pennsylvania's highest court overturned the conviction because a previous district attorney had promised that Bill Cosby would not be charged. Accused by more than 60 women of rape or sexual assault, he has always maintained his innocence.

Some of the women claimed he used his power and fame to lure them to his hotel or home under the pretense of an audition, career advice or friendship. It was said he either offered them tablets or slipped them into their drinks. That certainly chimes with the allegations from one of the first women to speak out against Bill Cosby, Victoria Valentino, an actor and activist and former Playboy bunny, whom I spoke to just before coming on air this morning to get her reaction about Bill Cosby's freedom and what women like herself are going to do now. I was sitting having my second cup of tea in the morning watching a PBS show about flower arranging, planning a completely blissfully peaceful day.

And it was the last thing I expected to hear. It was the last thing I expected to have happen. Even though your case didn't go to court because of a statute of time limitations, what had it meant to you and your group, which we'll talk about a bit more, to see Bill Cosby convicted in the first place? Well, we were thrilled. I mean, we had been working very hard speaking out to the media because our own statute of limitations was up. And so Andrea Constant, of course, was the only person who was within the statute of limitations in Pennsylvania and any other state. So we were standing behind her in solidarity. And we felt that justice for her was justice for us. We weren't out there looking for any kind of monetary settlement. We weren't looking for

anything other than justice and to be able to speak our truth. And you have been a vocal advocate on behalf of other women and you have also told your own story. And I know that you've said publicly that you were attacked by Bill Cosby in 1969 after he'd given you and your friend pills to, quote, cheer you up. And it was a very short time after your six-year-old had died. Could you tell our listeners and remind our listeners what you have said about that time? Well, yeah. I was living actually at my grandmother's house

with a couple of roommates because my grandmother had also just died a few weeks after my son. And one of my roommates, an actress, was anxious to go out to a cafe on the borderline of Beverly Hills near where we lived. I didn't know at the time, and I don't know whether she knew or not, he was part owner. And he came to the table. He was mesmerized by her eyes. She had very unusual

eyes, like a Malamute, you know, that white blue. And I was having a particularly difficult day. I was crying a lot. I didn't even look up when he came to the table. And he used my grief to get to her. He put her in charge of me, gave us a trip to the spa and said he would send his car over to my grandmother's house to pick us up and take us to dinner. This was all supposed to be for the soothing and calming me. And at the restaurant, I was being kind of a wet blanket. I think I wasn't really paying attention to all of his silly jokes. And I was rearranging food on my plate. And he leaned over and he put a pill next to my wine glass. And he said, take it.

He said, it'll make you feel better. And it'll make us all feel better. And then he gave her one. And he pretended to take one himself. You know, it's as if he was putting one in his mouth and covering his hand. And in those days, in the 1960s, all of the club owners, everybody, they were giving all of us diet pills, which we, of course, didn't realize were addictive. And we were attempting to keep

our weight down. We were working in nightclubs. I was a bunny at the Playboy Club. And if you gained any weight, of course, then you got demerits until you got fired. It was also the same period of time when birth control pills had just been invented. So everybody was taking birth control pills, which had a tremendous amount of estrogen in them at the time. So we were packing on all of this estrogen weight, no matter what we did, we couldn't lose it. So diet pills were kind of the routine in our world at that time. And what happened next? We just got so groggy, we couldn't keep our faces out of our plates, and we were beginning to sound guttural and wanted to go home.

And he said, okay, he would take us home. And we got up to the parking lot, and his chauffeur was not there. And I asked him where his chauffeur was he said he had something else he had to do but he would take us home so we got in his car I was in the back seat she was in the front seat and instead of driving down towards my grandmother's house he took us up into the Hollywood Hills. And we were swerving around these little narrow, windy streets, feeling nauseated and having spinners and trying to maintain our equilibrium, wondering where we were going, and could barely talk. And I think all of my energy was trying to keep from throwing up in this man's car.

And then all of a sudden, the car came to a stop. And he said, Oh, here I am at my office, I want to take you up and show you my awards. And I don't think either one of us want to do anything except go home and curl up in a fetal position. But he took her out of the car and I knew they were kind of chatting each other up and he seemed very flirty with her. And I thought, well, let them go up and I'll just sit here and wait. Instead, he opened the back door of the car and reached in and I got handed out onto the curb and went up to this very small, definitely not a professional working kind of office. Had a couple of love seats, a little writing desk, a small table lamp, and one of those fake French provincial telephones sitting on the desk.

And she went right straight over to a love seat, sat down and keeled over and passed out. And I sat down on the other one and put my head back. And I don't know if I went to sleep. I don't remember exactly, except I remember suddenly waking up because suddenly it was so silent and I looked around thinking maybe they had left me and then I saw him sitting next to her on this love seat looking down on her unconscious body and became very clear what he was about to do. The expression on his face, his posture, and then, of course, you know, some other pretty obvious things happening. And I tried to distract him. And then he just kept getting more and more exasperated and irritated.

And you could see change. You know, his face started becoming more and more angry. And finally, he just stood up and he walked over to me with this ugly, angry look on his face. And it scared the hell out of me because I had experienced abuse in the past. And I didn't want to get hit. I stood up and then my legs were like water.

And I started to crumble and grabbed on to him. And the next thing I knew, I was on my knees. He was unzipping his fly, sitting on the love seat. And I managed to say, how are we going to get home? And he didn't even look at me. He just was so just, I just can't even describe the expression, but he, he just said, call a cab and slammed the door and he was gone. And I managed to stagger over to my girlfriend and said, we've got to get out of here. We've got to get out of here. And she managed to wake up and we went over to the phone and we thought, how can we call a cab?

We don't know where we are. Did you tell anyone what had happened to you? Well, I really stuffed it. I was so ashamed and I was so embarrassed. I don't even know if she actually knew what had happened because she was unconscious. I mean, there's a lot more we can say at this point, and you have done, but I'm just aware of also where we are now with this and also the fact that is it right that it was 45 years before you spoke out publicly about this? 2005, I had heard on CNN that he had been accused by some nameless woman for drugging her and fondling her and my daughter.

And I were both standing in the living room watching this on CNN. And I just looked at her and I said, oh, my God, this is a pattern. This is a pattern. And then I ran out to go to work and I kept thinking, maybe I should speak out. Maybe I should contact that woman and lend my support. And then while I was pondering what to do and should I do and if I should and everything, all of a sudden it just went away and I let it go. I didn't really want to dig up the past. And then 2014 came along, November 22nd to be exact.

And I was checking my email before I went to bed. And there was a story on the Washington Post by a woman named Barbara Bowman saying she had tried to be believed for 35 years and nobody would believe her. And I just didn't want to read her story. I just was still pushing it away. And then all of a sudden, I saw this little story about a black male comedian named Hannibal Buress, who was making a joke about Cosby being a rapist in his stand-up routine in a nightclub in Philadelphia. And it suddenly had gone viral and everybody believed him. And that was my tipping point. That was exactly the one thing that pushed me over the edge. I was so furious that a woman had been attempting to get people to believe her all those years and nobody would. But it took one guy making a joke about it in a nightclub act. And suddenly everybody believed him.

So I managed to find a way to connect with the Washington Post, not really expecting to hear back. But within the hour, Adam Kushner called me and went public. You're now part of a group that call themselves the Cosby sister survivors. He still maintains his innocence and he probably in his delusional mind thinks that he didn't do anything wrong but we all know and not only that we heard him confess in his deposition in his own voice so it's not that he is innocent because he got out of prison. It's because the former DA in Montgomery County promised him that he would not prosecute him if he told the truth under oath in the deposition. So he did tell the truth. What are you going to do now? Is there anything to be done? Do you have to just live with this? Well, I think we have to continue to speak out. The work goes on. You know, we opened the floodgates to the Me Too movement being on the cutting edge of public awareness. And we opened the door for many other women to find their voice. The Weinstein women, a lot of different women who had been raped by other people, not big celebrities. And I think women are finding their voice. They're not afraid to speak out. They're finding empowerment. They're finding liberation. Is that the greater message here around, for instance, of course, so much and rightly so is attached to getting justice in the courts.

But is there something else to take away from this, which is what you talk about there, people coming together, finding their voice and perhaps accepting that the systems that we're governed by and live by don't always deliver the results. Well, yeah. And the message is that we are a lot stronger than a broken judicial system. Victoria Valentino. And for clarification, in that interview, Victoria said that Bill Cosby confessed in his deposition. But to be clear, he denied he was a sexual predator who assaulted many women. He presented himself as a playboy, someone who used a combination of fame, apparent concern and powerful sedatives in pursuit of consensual relationships with young women. Now, millions of women around the world use

contraception to control their fertility. We know that. But would it bother you if your condoms, pill or coil came with a message about the good you were doing for the planet? Any talk of controlling human numbers is, of course, controversial and with good reason. But because despite the freedom women have gained from family planning and contraception, some population policies in the past have been coercive. But with a global population of 7.9 billion and the effects of climate change staring us in the face, there are specialists in women's reproductive rights who think now is the time to restart the conversation

about population and the planet. Joining me is Susanna Mayhew, a Professor of Policy, Systems and Reproductive Health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and the journalist and commentator Ella Whelan, who when she came on the programme last month to talk about international aid, had this to say. I'm actually quite pessimistic in terms of politically the way in which the aid industry is going. If you could take a specific example, for example, the UK government's committing

£225 million a year to something, an organisation family planning 2020 which is linked to the un campaign thriving together which explicitly ties women's reproductive health and their access to abortions and contraception and thing like that to climate change activism and it's about overpopulation and so what it boils down to is saying we'll only give women access to these resources if they agree not to have any more babies because you know we should have more beetles and less black babies on this planet. Well, I said we were going to follow up on that. So here we are.

Ella Whelan joins me again now, as I say, to follow up on some very strong statements there. What is your evidence, Ella, that that's happening? Well, so it's very difficult, as many people have been, you know, who talk about foreign aid say, to find out exactly where the money goes. But one of the sort of umbrella groups called Family Planning 2020, now renamed Family Planning 3030 because of obvious delays due to the pandemic, has a core, one of its core partners is British Foreign Aid, the UN. It's got members from DFID sat on its board.

And it specifically has a toolkit, has redefined its toolkit to include discussions about climate change. And one of the things it says is, actually, this is, I think, where the anger and what I said in the last programme comes from. You know, it says that talking to women about population control or contraception is a cost effective way of dealing with climate change. Now, that is a really inhumane, I think, way of talking about women. It's a really inhumane way of dealing with what women tackle when they're thinking about their reproductive choices. I mean, a very obvious question is, all this stuff is put into very noble and necessary things like contraception, sex education, all that stuff.

What about infertility, which we talked about the programme last time? You know, what about resources for women who want to have large families and who can't? I mean, there's a the thing that makes me really nervous is that women's bodily autonomy is such an important issue for our freedom and our empowerment. And globally, we have, I mean, never mind what happens in developing nations, even here in the UK, we have a bad attitude to women's bodily autonomy. And you're concerned about this going around the world. Let me bring in Susanna. You've been on the ground in Western Africa, used to live there, and currently working on a project in Uganda.

Do you share some of Ella's concerns or you see this in a different way? It's true that there has been some fear of the coercive programmes of the past, which you alluded to. But I would say that the reproductive health movement now is a very different beast from what it was before, that they have learned very significant lessons from the past. And the Family Planning 2020 or 2030 commitments, I think they're now beginning to talk about climate, not because they want to connect

population as a cost effective tool in the climate change scenario, but actually because they're trying to find new funding streams to protect women's rights. We were talking about money earlier, the big aid cuts that we've all heard about threaten the rights of women, particularly those in the poorest countries most affected by climate change. And they threaten them because those cuts undermine access to contraception, which we've talked about. Contraception, more than anything, is what gives women autonomy over their reproductive choices, their education, their ability to earn money, their future. Now, there's a great deal of funding available for climate related activities, literally hundreds of billions.

And there are big opportunities for new partnerships between organisations involved in climate and environmental action and providers of contraception and health services, which could give a huge boost to millions of women. And I think it's important just to remember what the need is. So globally, there's around 140 million women who would want to prevent having a child but do not have access to contraception. And that results in 85 million unintended pregnancies worldwide a year, 32 million unplanned births, often to teenage mothers who then can't complete their education or to women who are at high risk because they've had a young child very soon before or they have other potential maternal complications. That results then in 40 to 50 million abortions a year, half of which are unsafe.

So women are using twigs, metal rugs, corrosive substances, anything they can to get rid of a pregnancy they're desperate not to have. And I think that is important to remember. Are you comfortable with, even if it's on the point of pragmatism, are you comfortable with those two things being linked? Because ultimately the end result is better for

women is that what you're is that what you're saying Susanna? I think it's important to listen to the voices of women being affected both by climate change and lack of contraception so my project in Uganda which you you noted which I'm doing in partnership with the Margaret Pike Trust both men and women there are telling us that their biggest concern is feeding their children. And that's partly because soils are less fertile. Rainfall patterns are less reliable there today because of climate change. But it's also they are telling us because they have many children and they have no health services and no access to contraception. So the project is attempting to address all of those things together in an integrated way. And what's wrong with that, Ella, trying to do it in an integrated way?

Are you just getting caught up on language, really? You don't seem like someone who does that typically. Not at all. I don't think that, I think it's relatively ingenuous to say, disingenuous to say that this is just simply a means of trying to scrabble money from somewhere. And obviously we're talking in the in the context of um aid and resources being cut but i mean you look at the international plan parenthood federation has you know put out a statement where it called on other organizations linked to it to uh to demand that the paris agreement acknowledge it made this very specific statement saying to acknowledge the

importance of empowering women and girls and the key role that that plays in national climate change strategies, I'm quoting from its website. So this isn't just about like, you know, come on activists, do what you can to get the necessaries for the women on the ground. There is a narrative behind discussions about women's reproductive health, especially in developing nations, which is not just tinged by the dark past of population control, coercive, but is framed in terms of this sort of progressive way of looking at white people

telling black people how many kids they should have and what effect that has on the planet. The reason I'm being crude is because I'm really worried about what this means for how we globally look at women's freedom because the whole point about why women are currently restricted whether it be in the UK in relation to abortion rights or access to the emergency morning after pill or anything like that is that we can't be trusted to make decisions about our own health now I think we should be giving aid to internationally I've got no problem with that but it can't be contingent and it can't be dependent on women sitting through lectures about what their bodily decisions are doing to giraffes i mean the margaret pike trust has reams of um information on their website about you know what's happening to warthogs and and you know beetles and in relation to women's choices

so so it's the framing and the linking suzanna very short on time here burden choices so it's the framing and the linking Susanna very short on time here on women it's the burden okay the burden as well Ella thank you for that Susanna just a final word from you as I say I think it's important to listen to the women themselves rather than white people sitting in a studio debating something from a position of western privilege and I think the people that we work with and have worked with for 25 years on women's rights are saying, we want programmes that will actually help us to deal with all of the aspects that are affecting our lives. That's contraception in particular, it's also climate related activities. And the more joined up the programmes, the better, but we do need new funding

streams. Otherwise, we're effectively denying 140 million women their right to contraception. And that should be a right for women everywhere to take all of their futures. It seems a very live debate indeed, hence why we said we'd come back. So we promised to do so. Ella Whelan, thank you for kicking it off and coming back today. Susanna Mayhew, thank you for your contributions and some of yours as well coming in. Right at the start of the programme, we played you a bit of Atomic Kitten after England's win last night. They have reunited after 15 years

to give their full support to Gareth Southgate. They've got a new version of their hit, Hole Again, especially for the football. And I believe I've got one of the kittens on the line, Natasha Hamilton. Hello. Hello, how are you? I'm all right.

This is a treat at the end of the programme. How do you feel about your song becoming the anthem? Oh, it's all a bit bizarre, but it's been such a rollercoaster few days, you know, with me and the girls coming to London and getting swept away with just all the excitement to support England. It's been brilliant.

I also thought I might have your fellow kitten, Liz Frost, on the line. Liz, hello? Hello. Have we got Liz? Hello. Oh, hi, Liz. Hello.

Good to have you. It's Liz McLarnon. Hiya. How are you? I'm all right. Sorry, excuse me. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you feeling about all of this?

Well, I mean, apart from being a bit hungover, to be fair, after last night's win, you know, we're just, you know what, we honestly, honestly,

we just loved hearing the fans chant it so much that we just, we wanted to join in and it's just, it's just a bit of fun and it's gone a bit nuts

and we're just a bit freaked out and happy but totally like, it's nuts, isn't it? Liz McClarnon, let me get that right. Jenny Frost's the one we're missing and we've got Natasha Hamilton but totally like it's nuts isn't it Liz McClarnon let me get that right Jenny Frost is the one we're missing and we've got Natasha Hamilton it is and I'm happy to say a bit hungover because I've had a lot of messages about

that a few people saying Gareth Southgate you turn me on is that how you all feel well like right now yes right now everyone's very turned on by Southgate. Do you know what?

Could you do us the honour, potentially? I don't know if both of you can. Would you mind giving us a little blast for our last minute? If you want to do it, Tasha, we're not out of time. Okay, Natasha, go for it. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Looking back on when we first met

I cannot escape and I cannot forget. Southgate you're the one. You still turn me on. Football's coming home again. Woo! That's amazing! It's giving me tingles.

Can we just clarify that it was the England fans that created those lyrics? Good clarification. Thank you very much for that. We like the facts here on Woman's Hour. And can I say, as someone who loved Atomic Kitten in the 90s, it is so nice to talk to both of you. I feel a lot of nostalgia and I'm really happy that you've become an anthem

and it's back out there. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Thank you to all of you at home for your company this morning. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.